In my experience, side khatra gives me a lot straighter arrow path. But I'm not experienced enough, nor do I have that many different bows to draw a conclusion from. I think the most important thing is technique, and practice in any case. An awesome video!
I find it an excellent video. Personally it is very difficult to shoot without khatra. I use what works for me and how I learned it from you. Thanks Always Armin. 😀☕
I would think the biggest difference would be the way it feels and you know what feels right to throw straight, much of this style of archery is very feel oriented
IME, yes, as I would do specific kathra for specific bows that I use, having their different arrow pass widths. I found it so because not only width of arrow pass but also brace height effects the arrow flight. It is this that makes the character of each bow fascinating and fun to shoot. Something that is almost not comprehensive as the arrow speed is 170-190fps which my wrist cannot possibly be able to match.
Thanks Armin, it's a great info. Just got a Korean bow yesterday. I noticed that my Han Wind bow, which has a very narrow arrow pass, but it's also a longer bow, with same poundage as the Korean, shots the arrows very straight just using regular release. But with the Korean bow, if I don't perform khatra, arrows flying a bit sideways.
In my limited experience, due to limited amount of bows, the width of the arrow pass does not affect Khatra. However the wider it gets, and the smaller the brace height is the more "effort" you have to invest into a clean Khatra/release for a straight arrow flight. My Assyrian bow (narrow and high brace height) is more forgiving than my Korean bow.
I have a fiberglass tatar bow with narrow arrow pass and high brace height and a Korean bow. The fiberglass takes no effort, the korean takes just a little more.
Awesomeness, so awesome of a video, I agree 100 percent. It doesn’t make a bit of difference, I can shoot a round pvc bow (some people in other countries in South America cannot get bows so I have them build their bows) and they still hit their targets, as well as I do. It all comes down to the archer and who you learned from. As for me I learned a great deal from this channel, so my shot wouldn’t be effected by any width of any bow. (As long as my shot is done well, because we all make mistakes and don’t perform perfectly every time) but 98 percent of my shots fly straight as an arrow should fly while using your side down Khatra.
It depends from bow I use. I mean not only width of arrow pass, but power and speed of bow itself. With more powerful bow I need to do same movements but much much quicker, that happens in sub concise level of perception, only by tactile feelings. And for every different bow need some practice to see perfect straight fly of arrow in all stages of fly, right from release. Thanks 🌿🇺🇦🇫🇮☀️✨🌍
I think you should rename "Three Minute Friday" and change it to "Five Minute Friday", and then it would give you a bit more flexibility (and it's kinda catchy!). Thank you for the lovely video, Armin!
eight minutes Friday, armin I love your videos, I would love to see a mega comparison of all horsebow for beginners, intermediate and advanced archers ❤️💯
I think with my little skill my daily performance makes a bigger difference than arrow pass. However, I know that training makes a big difference too. That means in general you have to adapt to everything that changes in your setup. For some, it takes longer. Others learn it quicker.
An interesting investigation for sure. You always have something to teach us Armin, and it's always a pleasure to watch. Love shooting my Kheshig (you sold me on it so fast 😜) and I have a long draw Yarha on the way. Very excited 😁
Physics-wise, the size should affect it. And your'e right, the depth affects it more especially with side khatra. After all, the arrow physically makes contact with the bow and the amount and angle the arrow touches affects it's flight. But it shouldn't affect the khatra you do, instead it affects the flight and the aiming you do because of it. The khatra you do should be the same regardless, and instead you should compensate by learning the behavior of the arrow and bow. It's much harder to compensate for khatra and the fine amount of movement needed there than it is to just learn to aim with your shooting method.
I do like to use khatra I find without the arrow does go towards the right but as an anything else if you shoot that way all the time you will start to adjust and compensate for that. Thanks for another great video. 👍🏽🏹🇺🇸
Recently I've been shooting a long selfbow without an arrow pass using slavic draw. I noticed when I try khatra, or accidentally torque the bow, my arrows go way to the right. I would have thought they would go more left but maybe I misunderstand how khatra works.
If you set the video speed to 0.25 on the slow motion, you get really slow pictures, and you can see, the second bow shot really straight arrow with khatra. The other shots was a bit sideways, and your khatra was late with the first bow. This result big differrenc on bigger distance, ca 70 meters puta shoot and bigger distances. The khatra is just work well, if you can start before the arrow pass. But Armin' s other techniks is perfect, so he can shoot almost straight arrows without khatra. So I think the others techniks is more importent, the khatra is the last smoothing. 🏹
I have shot straight bows and recurves to hunt. I really don't grasp the bows all that tight and kind of let it settle itself against my hand. I found that if you grasp the bow too tightly, especially with a formed handle, you can "Twist' the bow out of alignment without knowing it. You have an unusual hold when shooting, kind of like shooting a left hand bow right handed. Not saying it is wrong, just different. I never saw that before.
I'm just now starting my thumb release journey with a fiberglass "Mongolian style" bow and although I can't do many forms of khatra, my particular bow automatically applies some torque to my follow-through. In my experience (especially with thumb release), I don't feel any difference at all. Where I look at and push my fist to, the arrow goes. Either with no follow through or torque.
I confess that I had to look up the word, "khatra". It seems to very elastic in definition, depending on location, culture, etc. That being said, I still have no clue as to how it relates to archery. My best guess is accommodating what I understand as the "archer's paradox". Educate me, if you please. Thanks.
It more or less does that, yes, atop of preserving a certain amount of kinetic energy for the arrow to use, and grants you a few fps more than if you didn't use this technique.
It's a follow through teqnique that slightly increases speed by allowing the arrow a cleaner exit. Your moving the bow out of the way of the arrow essentially and letting the arrow pull itself off the string more smoothly
"you shoot an arrow and you know what it does" v spine and arrow tuning, you seem to pick up pretty much any bow with a range of arrows and adapt, as you say to how the arrow shoots, I'd love to see you do a video of arrow tuning (paper tuning) and if there really is a need, if so when would it be needed as opposed to Khatra, torque etc. The first bow you shot was beautiful, what model was it?
I am assuming that what your calling "Khatra" is actually an amount of torque ... interesting never thought that you would get any positive benefits from torqueing the bow. but as I said your presenting an interesting theory ...
I wonder, if an Olympic Stationary Target Archer, (non-intuitive), Style of Sighting down the Arrow and a Set anchor point. Would have a more difficult time with adapting to a change in Arrow pass?, hmmmmm, than an intuitive Archer, like most of us, who have learned from Armin on a typical Horse Bow. I'm thinking an intuitive Archer can adapt must quicker to any size arrow pass of any bow, (that does not have an Arrow rest), & Arrow Combination. An Olympic Stationary Target Archer is The Master of the "Repeated shot", Exactly the same way, Every time, at a Fixed Distance with a Match set of Arrows. An Intuitive Archer, is a Master of Adapting, where they want the 2nd Arrow to go based on where the First Arrow impacted on the Target. No Matter the Distance, or the Elevation of the target, or the Type & Style of a Horse Bow, (no matter the size of the Arrow Pass), Matched up with any Match Set of Arrows.
Sir you recently got so many new bows and arrows. Atleast give a celebratory video, comparing how Mughal Speed Nocks, Koc Nocks and Ali Bow Alumni Speed Nocks perform in Unstable Platforms Pretty please 🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏 ☺ 💕
With all due respect, I think this wasn't a very good experiment. When you have the slow motion footage it can be clearly seen that with every shot your arrows are deflected roughly the same amount, except for the bow with the shelf. That one has a very narrow pass and the last shot with that one was almost perfectly straight. Of course your body adapts to the width of your arrow pass, but to get not only accuracy but a straight arrowflight as well, you have to refine your khatra according to your arrow pass. The arrow points to the target, but the string will not go in line with that when you release, the string will go in line with your bow's axis, so there your arrow pass width will come into play. Thank you nonetheless for the video, hope you find my comment reasonable.
In my experience, side khatra gives me a lot straighter arrow path. But I'm not experienced enough, nor do I have that many different bows to draw a conclusion from. I think the most important thing is technique, and practice in any case. An awesome video!
Yes I find that u can almost always rely on side khatra.
I find it an excellent video. Personally it is very difficult to shoot without khatra.
I use what works for me and how I learned it from you. Thanks Always Armin. 😀☕
I would think the biggest difference would be the way it feels and you know what feels right to throw straight, much of this style of archery is very feel oriented
IME, yes, as I would do specific kathra for specific bows that I use, having their different arrow pass widths. I found it so because not only width of arrow pass but also brace height effects the arrow flight. It is this that makes the character of each bow fascinating and fun to shoot. Something that is almost not comprehensive as the arrow speed is 170-190fps which my wrist cannot possibly be able to match.
Thanks Armin, it's a great info. Just got a Korean bow yesterday. I noticed that my Han Wind bow, which has a very narrow arrow pass, but it's also a longer bow, with same poundage as the Korean, shots the arrows very straight just using regular release. But with the Korean bow, if I don't perform khatra, arrows flying a bit sideways.
I stiil don’t know much about “khatra” in experience, but I see you did adapt very well on different bows ... thanks for sharing this topic with us 🙏🏻
In my limited experience, due to limited amount of bows, the width of the arrow pass does not affect Khatra. However the wider it gets, and the smaller the brace height is the more "effort" you have to invest into a clean Khatra/release for a straight arrow flight. My Assyrian bow (narrow and high brace height) is more forgiving than my Korean bow.
maybe I am too used to all my bows.... I always thought the same, wider arrow pass and short brace height are more crucial to get the hang of
I have a fiberglass tatar bow with narrow arrow pass and high brace height and a Korean bow. The fiberglass takes no effort, the korean takes just a little more.
Awesomeness, so awesome of a video, I agree 100 percent. It doesn’t make a bit of difference, I can shoot a round pvc bow (some people in other countries in South America cannot get bows so I have them build their bows) and they still hit their targets, as well as I do. It all comes down to the archer and who you learned from. As for me I learned a great deal from this channel, so my shot wouldn’t be effected by any width of any bow. (As long as my shot is done well, because we all make mistakes and don’t perform perfectly every time) but 98 percent of my shots fly straight as an arrow should fly while using your side down Khatra.
It depends from bow I use. I mean not only width of arrow pass, but power and speed of bow itself.
With more powerful bow I need to do same movements but much much quicker, that happens in sub concise level of perception, only by tactile feelings.
And for every different bow need some practice to see perfect straight fly of arrow in all stages of fly, right from release.
Thanks 🌿🇺🇦🇫🇮☀️✨🌍
I think you should rename "Three Minute Friday" and change it to "Five Minute Friday", and then it would give you a bit more flexibility (and it's kinda catchy!).
Thank you for the lovely video, Armin!
yeah I know :D
eight minutes Friday, armin I love your videos, I would love to see a mega comparison of all horsebow for beginners, intermediate and advanced archers ❤️💯
Thank you for this.
Would be beneficial to see the affect on the arrow flight arriving on target.
I think with my little skill my daily performance makes a bigger difference than arrow pass. However, I know that training makes a big difference too. That means in general you have to adapt to everything that changes in your setup. For some, it takes longer. Others learn it quicker.
An interesting investigation for sure. You always have something to teach us Armin, and it's always a pleasure to watch. Love shooting my Kheshig (you sold me on it so fast 😜) and I have a long draw Yarha on the way. Very excited 😁
Thank you!! good information👍
Physics-wise, the size should affect it. And your'e right, the depth affects it more especially with side khatra. After all, the arrow physically makes contact with the bow and the amount and angle the arrow touches affects it's flight. But it shouldn't affect the khatra you do, instead it affects the flight and the aiming you do because of it. The khatra you do should be the same regardless, and instead you should compensate by learning the behavior of the arrow and bow. It's much harder to compensate for khatra and the fine amount of movement needed there than it is to just learn to aim with your shooting method.
That’s interesting
I do like to use khatra I find without the arrow does go towards the right but as an anything else if you shoot that way all the time you will start to adjust and compensate for that. Thanks for another great video. 👍🏽🏹🇺🇸
Recently I've been shooting a long selfbow without an arrow pass using slavic draw. I noticed when I try khatra, or accidentally torque the bow, my arrows go way to the right. I would have thought they would go more left but maybe I misunderstand how khatra works.
If you set the video speed to 0.25 on the slow motion, you get really slow pictures, and you can see, the second bow shot really straight arrow with khatra.
The other shots was a bit sideways, and your khatra was late with the first bow.
This result big differrenc on bigger distance, ca 70 meters puta shoot and bigger distances.
The khatra is just work well, if you can start before the arrow pass.
But Armin' s other techniks is perfect, so he can shoot almost straight arrows without khatra.
So I think the others techniks is more importent, the khatra is the last smoothing.
🏹
I have shot straight bows and recurves to hunt. I really don't grasp the bows all that tight and kind of let it settle itself against my hand. I found that if you grasp the bow too tightly, especially with a formed handle, you can "Twist' the bow out of alignment without knowing it. You have an unusual hold when shooting, kind of like shooting a left hand bow right handed. Not saying it is wrong, just different. I never saw that before.
Love this
I'm just now starting my thumb release journey with a fiberglass "Mongolian style" bow and although I can't do many forms of khatra, my particular bow automatically applies some torque to my follow-through. In my experience (especially with thumb release), I don't feel any difference at all. Where I look at and push my fist to, the arrow goes. Either with no follow through or torque.
1st - Thank you for Good video.
I confess that I had to look up the word, "khatra". It seems to very elastic in definition, depending on location, culture, etc. That being said, I still have no clue as to how it relates to archery. My best guess is accommodating what I understand as the "archer's paradox". Educate me, if you please. Thanks.
It more or less does that, yes, atop of preserving a certain amount of kinetic energy for the arrow to use, and grants you a few fps more than if you didn't use this technique.
It's a follow through teqnique that slightly increases speed by allowing the arrow a cleaner exit. Your moving the bow out of the way of the arrow essentially and letting the arrow pull itself off the string more smoothly
@@jake4194 Thanks folks! Obviously, a technique one must work at. In any case, with this new found knowledge, now I can be fun at parties too, ;)
"you shoot an arrow and you know what it does" v spine and arrow tuning, you seem to pick up pretty much any bow with a range of arrows and adapt, as you say to how the arrow shoots, I'd love to see you do a video of arrow tuning (paper tuning) and if there really is a need, if so when would it be needed as opposed to Khatra, torque etc. The first bow you shot was beautiful, what model was it?
Zhu Ran by AF Archery
He has older videos of paper tuning. Khatra paper tuning that is. And he shows excellence in using different spine arrows.
As a korean bow user...i think side khatra is best for korean bow. Arrow go more straigh..
What bows are well suited for side khatra, beside the Korean?
Short ones like Turkish
@@ArminHirmer ok, but doesn't the bump on the grip obstruct it?
I am assuming that what your calling "Khatra" is actually an amount of torque ...
interesting never thought that you would get any positive benefits from torqueing the bow.
but as I said your presenting an interesting theory ...
not just a theory its something well know in ancient archery treaties
If I do the simple khatra and a clean release then the arrow flies straight no matter the arrow pass width...
And now sthree...thriii....four arrows with Khatra. 😜
would narrow pass be better at aiming?
I don't aim. I only look at the target.
I wonder, if an Olympic Stationary Target Archer, (non-intuitive), Style of Sighting down the Arrow and a Set anchor point. Would have a more difficult time with adapting to a change in Arrow pass?, hmmmmm, than an intuitive Archer, like most of us, who have learned from Armin on a typical Horse Bow. I'm thinking an intuitive Archer can adapt must quicker to any size arrow pass of any bow, (that does not have an Arrow rest), & Arrow Combination. An Olympic Stationary Target Archer is The Master of the "Repeated shot", Exactly the same way, Every time, at a Fixed Distance with a Match set of Arrows. An Intuitive Archer, is a Master of Adapting, where they want the 2nd Arrow to go based on where the First Arrow impacted on the Target. No Matter the Distance, or the Elevation of the target, or the Type & Style of a Horse Bow, (no matter the size of the Arrow Pass), Matched up with any Match Set of Arrows.
they use centre shot bows, different story
the arrows are too stiff maybe...make the arrow go to the left. maybe
My take on this: korean/japanese bow - torque. arabic bow - downward. modern bow - downward.
Sir you recently got so many new bows and arrows. Atleast give a celebratory video, comparing how Mughal Speed Nocks, Koc Nocks and Ali Bow Alumni Speed Nocks perform in Unstable Platforms
Pretty please 🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏 ☺ 💕
I dont have Mughal speed nocks (I think) and for the rest it is as usual a matter of practice and personal preference
@@ArminHirmer
Didn't Custom Thumbring send you some?
@@srinjoyroychoudhury7034 yeah long ago, I cannot find many things after I handed over my business.... will see if I can get my hands on them
취미 생활 부럽다.
European videos seem to be to the point compared the American ones most of the time.
With all due respect, I think this wasn't a very good experiment. When you have the slow motion footage it can be clearly seen that with every shot your arrows are deflected roughly the same amount, except for the bow with the shelf. That one has a very narrow pass and the last shot with that one was almost perfectly straight. Of course your body adapts to the width of your arrow pass, but to get not only accuracy but a straight arrowflight as well, you have to refine your khatra according to your arrow pass. The arrow points to the target, but the string will not go in line with that when you release, the string will go in line with your bow's axis, so there your arrow pass width will come into play.
Thank you nonetheless for the video, hope you find my comment reasonable.