Use the dragon to hit the flank, reducing the reply attacks to 1. If you take enough Rangers to almost reach each edge and block the dragon from reaching there, just shoot/magic missile it. Even a melee focused chaos army can quickly reduce the numbers in a couple of Summoning/Ruby Ring. Once in to combat the Dragon would be killing a steady number of dwarves, with no reply attacks at all. The dwarf player might use challenges to reduce the damage, but it would still lose combat and keep the whole line engaged in combat. This would give the Chaos player time to set up his whole army to charge at once. Because that, I think, was the critical mistake the Chaos player made - charging in piecemeal, not waiting until his Chaos Chosen were in place. By locking down the Dwarf shooting he has time to bring everything up to make charges guaranteed. I'm not saying its a sure fire win, but I think it would have a high chance of success.
I couldn't recall the rule that requires you to direct your attacks against the nearest enemy models. For anyone else looking for it, it's P.147, Multiple Units in Combat, "... A model that is not in base contact with the enemy must direct its attacks against the closest enemy unit..."
This strategy only works in a controlled environment. Terain , and battle types , of various sorts and deployments , also objectives will always be the killer of this type of warfare.
I love the game as it is. We've never had an edition of Warhammer that was this good. I'm terrified they're going to ruin it. Also my little one and I are still painting our new army for this edition!
@@fragfmgill First, I'm very sympathetic to that inclination. But I don't think the sky is falling. I think people asking for rules re-works aren't actually playing enough. Play more and it'll go away. This is the best, most-balanced edition we've ever had. It feels like a dream to play compared to what went on in the others. I'm 42 and got my first rulebook when I was 8 or 9. I will never go back to the others. 1) No one actually plays like this. I was designing and painting lists with this in mind 8 months ago. I never got to use those toys! I don't think this warrants a rules re-work. (And yes, Orc Shaman with Gaze of Gork lasers were one of the toys. Just like another signature spell, Fist of Gork is great for the poison deathstars.) 2) This is an extreme edge case: 30" Crossbows + Quick-Shot Throwing Axes + Great Weapons + Unbreakable Special Character. If I do this line with goblins, even poison goblins, it'll barely slow anyone down. If I do it with Black Orcs, it might do a little better, but it's not a game-winner. People will just ignore it. This is a very special combination. This is not something that can break the game. If everyone starts doing it, and they won't, (because people aren't animals), it's trivial for the community to address this specific combination. I don't think it warrants a rules re-work. 3) This basic mechanic --everyone in the fighting rank can fight--, is essential to allowing people who love infantry to participate in the game. The world is not ending. The sky is not falling, and the fundamental mechanic here helps infantry players get to roll dice.
If we're going to talk about rules reworks though, I do think there's a place for step-up to encourage infantry lovers to have ranks. But I think the overall picture right now, where you're rewarded for getting the charge and initiative matters is a good place to be. So I think it should be conditional, limited step-up: Maybe you have to pass a modified leadership test to make step-up supporting attacks, to show a unit maintaining discipline or courage in the face of the onslaught. Maybe a better, less-static version of Steadfast comes back and you can always make step-up attacks if you have the most ranks? Or double outnumber? But if they don't touch it, it's still the best version of Warhammer I've ever played. And there are ways to make the lines look proper: just put spearmen right behind the bowmen for example. This is a game of armies, just add lines and it looks just as good :)
Could go max gyro bombers and Gyrocopters single stand units. minimum shooting core infantry. you would kill one gyro turn one, and one in turn 2, on turn two the entire gyro force would bomb you, then be behind you shooting the entire time. torn apart turn 3.
Pure linehammer! I'd say the best way to defeat this is dragons - charge it in the flank and not in the front or rear, then either keep challenging until you get Thorgrim or put another dragon in the other flank!
Send your massive unit of Boarboyz into one end of the line with the chariots alongside to take most of the attacks back. Space the chariots out well enough, roll well on your impact hits and you might only lose the end one each time...
One easy fix to solve some of the problem is to just set a maximum to the amount of attacks that is allowed outside of base contact. Set it to 5 and many of the issues are solved.
In terms of beating it, maybe a giant block of 100 skeleton archers, with some liche priests to resurrect them and then you spend six turns trying to grind out a win by shooting the line out of existence?
Screaming Skull Catapults all get stackable Skull of the Foes and a single wound can cause Panic, just like a Hellcannon (combined with Doom Totem, Gathering Darkness, Allied Manbane)
For Orcs & Goblins players, Shamans with lasers (Gaze of Gork) work terrifyingly well on lines. For this one, I think I'd step back from a Wyvern and use boars so I could shelter the Shaman from the shooting on the way in.
Maybe Dwarf expeditionary force list with huge line of thunderers with similar heroes and scoutgyros / regulargyros to fly over and charge flank or shoot from behind. Scout gyros have vanguard and 10'' fly so if you have first turn you can make the fly over. Thunderers have less BS, but can reroll 1 to hit.
You wonder about small cheap units going in, Marauder Berserkers from Wolves of the Sea are probably a standout candidate. Suspect that spaced out correctly they could give those Skinwolves (I think they're not as good if they can't go through multiple combats to get multiple buffs, but can still get the three saves potentially?) plenty of assistance to beat your line up or even have considerable success on their own with enough units going in at the same time. Bretonnians are an interesting one. How do your tournaments play the 'everyone is in base contact' thing with the Lance? There is probably some scope for being able to kill the characters with this and with multiple charges perhaps keep attacks back against each unit to a reasonable level. However, one reading of it would allow the line to split their attacks any way they like as if everyone's in base contact then there's no closest unit - this would also mean the Green Knight couldn't be used to stop attacks going into a Lance wherever he was positioned. Curious to know how this is dealt with in general i.e. for proper games as well as this sort of nonsense! Chaos might find some play in the Warpfire Dragon turning of your ward save with the right support or maybe even standing off to do it. I would think some of the equally daft big shooty units might be able to handle the line without combat, perhaps the High Elf one would be a good place to start, hope that gets done away with along with the Tomb King and Night Gobbo nonsense. My guess is that lots of units of shooting Wood Elves are also probably better against this than you suggest. If they're only five or six models a unit and you can only shoot one unit a turn then I'd have thought you'd be losing your unit fairly quickly?
When a The Old World unit size is 5+ it can mean 5 or more models up to infinity, right ? based on other constraints such as total points value and certain units must constitute a certain proportion (%) of your army.
In real life you have as many ranks as possible to improve leadership, maybe the game needs a +1 leadership per rank bonus?! Although that wouldn't help the 'unbreakable' situation.
Your buddy should challenge your general at the first opportunity. If you accept, you could lose him. If you refuse, you lose all the rules he gives to the unit.
Use the dragon to hit the flank, reducing the reply attacks to 1. If you take enough Rangers to almost reach each edge and block the dragon from reaching there, just shoot/magic missile it. Even a melee focused chaos army can quickly reduce the numbers in a couple of Summoning/Ruby Ring. Once in to combat the Dragon would be killing a steady number of dwarves, with no reply attacks at all. The dwarf player might use challenges to reduce the damage, but it would still lose combat and keep the whole line engaged in combat. This would give the Chaos player time to set up his whole army to charge at once.
Because that, I think, was the critical mistake the Chaos player made - charging in piecemeal, not waiting until his Chaos Chosen were in place. By locking down the Dwarf shooting he has time to bring everything up to make charges guaranteed. I'm not saying its a sure fire win, but I think it would have a high chance of success.
This is an argument for “Dwellers Below”
I couldn't recall the rule that requires you to direct your attacks against the nearest enemy models. For anyone else looking for it, it's P.147, Multiple Units in Combat, "... A model that is not in base contact with the enemy must direct its attacks against the closest enemy unit..."
This has to be probably the most boring way to play an army or to play against
@@aaronjack6852 Other than an army hiding in the corner, you're probably right.
This strategy only works in a controlled environment. Terain , and battle types , of various sorts and deployments , also objectives will always be the killer of this type of warfare.
It should be possible to do a 72 man wide line on a standard 6x4 table. If they're on 25mm bases. About 62 wide if they're on 30mm bases.
Can't wait for the rules rework
I love the game as it is. We've never had an edition of Warhammer that was this good. I'm terrified they're going to ruin it.
Also my little one and I are still painting our new army for this edition!
@@jguilbault57 100% need to fix this.
@@fragfmgill First, I'm very sympathetic to that inclination. But I don't think the sky is falling. I think people asking for rules re-works aren't actually playing enough. Play more and it'll go away. This is the best, most-balanced edition we've ever had. It feels like a dream to play compared to what went on in the others. I'm 42 and got my first rulebook when I was 8 or 9. I will never go back to the others.
1) No one actually plays like this. I was designing and painting lists with this in mind 8 months ago. I never got to use those toys! I don't think this warrants a rules re-work.
(And yes, Orc Shaman with Gaze of Gork lasers were one of the toys. Just like another signature spell, Fist of Gork is great for the poison deathstars.)
2) This is an extreme edge case: 30" Crossbows + Quick-Shot Throwing Axes + Great Weapons + Unbreakable Special Character. If I do this line with goblins, even poison goblins, it'll barely slow anyone down. If I do it with Black Orcs, it might do a little better, but it's not a game-winner. People will just ignore it. This is a very special combination. This is not something that can break the game. If everyone starts doing it, and they won't, (because people aren't animals), it's trivial for the community to address this specific combination. I don't think it warrants a rules re-work.
3) This basic mechanic --everyone in the fighting rank can fight--, is essential to allowing people who love infantry to participate in the game. The world is not ending. The sky is not falling, and the fundamental mechanic here helps infantry players get to roll dice.
If we're going to talk about rules reworks though, I do think there's a place for step-up to encourage infantry lovers to have ranks. But I think the overall picture right now, where you're rewarded for getting the charge and initiative matters is a good place to be.
So I think it should be conditional, limited step-up:
Maybe you have to pass a modified leadership test to make step-up supporting attacks, to show a unit maintaining discipline or courage in the face of the onslaught.
Maybe a better, less-static version of Steadfast comes back and you can always make step-up attacks if you have the most ranks? Or double outnumber?
But if they don't touch it, it's still the best version of Warhammer I've ever played. And there are ways to make the lines look proper: just put spearmen right behind the bowmen for example. This is a game of armies, just add lines and it looks just as good :)
you can play 9th Age, it solves this crap.
You should take a purely defensive fighting character for stopping combat res in a challenge.
Could go max gyro bombers and Gyrocopters single stand units. minimum shooting core infantry. you would kill one gyro turn one, and one in turn 2, on turn two the entire gyro force would bomb you, then be behind you shooting the entire time. torn apart turn 3.
Highelves magic can make a whole unit ethereal. Dragonprinces made ethereal could wreak the line
Probably maybe flagellants packed with warrior priests and archlectors could try. I loled on this battle. Thank You for this one. Ridiculous!!! :)
Green Knight plus Duke in a challenge is a good counter
Pure linehammer! I'd say the best way to defeat this is dragons - charge it in the flank and not in the front or rear, then either keep challenging until you get Thorgrim or put another dragon in the other flank!
I'm planning to make it wider, so maybe it won't even have flanks. :-O
Send your massive unit of Boarboyz into one end of the line with the chariots alongside to take most of the attacks back. Space the chariots out well enough, roll well on your impact hits and you might only lose the end one each time...
One easy fix to solve some of the problem is to just set a maximum to the amount of attacks that is allowed outside of base contact.
Set it to 5 and many of the issues are solved.
@@zewelin However, on its own, that change would make infantry quite bad.
In terms of beating it, maybe a giant block of 100 skeleton archers, with some liche priests to resurrect them and then you spend six turns trying to grind out a win by shooting the line out of existence?
Screaming Skull Catapults all get stackable Skull of the Foes and a single wound can cause Panic, just like a Hellcannon (combined with Doom Totem, Gathering Darkness, Allied Manbane)
For Orcs & Goblins players, Shamans with lasers (Gaze of Gork) work terrifyingly well on lines. For this one, I think I'd step back from a Wyvern and use boars so I could shelter the Shaman from the shooting on the way in.
MSU wolves of the sea berserker spam, worlds largest, massive line of sisters of averlorn maybe.
Maybe Dwarf expeditionary force list with huge line of thunderers with similar heroes and scoutgyros / regulargyros to fly over and charge flank or shoot from behind. Scout gyros have vanguard and 10'' fly so if you have first turn you can make the fly over. Thunderers have less BS, but can reroll 1 to hit.
honestly with my skaven, i would force a draw, maybe just arty it for 6 turns. This is daft and i wouldn't entertain this.
The true abyssal dwarves! 😊
You wonder about small cheap units going in, Marauder Berserkers from Wolves of the Sea are probably a standout candidate. Suspect that spaced out correctly they could give those Skinwolves (I think they're not as good if they can't go through multiple combats to get multiple buffs, but can still get the three saves potentially?) plenty of assistance to beat your line up or even have considerable success on their own with enough units going in at the same time.
Bretonnians are an interesting one. How do your tournaments play the 'everyone is in base contact' thing with the Lance? There is probably some scope for being able to kill the characters with this and with multiple charges perhaps keep attacks back against each unit to a reasonable level. However, one reading of it would allow the line to split their attacks any way they like as if everyone's in base contact then there's no closest unit - this would also mean the Green Knight couldn't be used to stop attacks going into a Lance wherever he was positioned. Curious to know how this is dealt with in general i.e. for proper games as well as this sort of nonsense!
Chaos might find some play in the Warpfire Dragon turning of your ward save with the right support or maybe even standing off to do it.
I would think some of the equally daft big shooty units might be able to handle the line without combat, perhaps the High Elf one would be a good place to start, hope that gets done away with along with the Tomb King and Night Gobbo nonsense. My guess is that lots of units of shooting Wood Elves are also probably better against this than you suggest. If they're only five or six models a unit and you can only shoot one unit a turn then I'd have thought you'd be losing your unit fairly quickly?
When a The Old World unit size is 5+ it can mean 5 or more models up to infinity, right ? based on other constraints such as total points value and certain units must constitute a certain proportion (%) of your army.
@@RolandoRatas Correct.
In real life you have as many ranks as possible to improve leadership, maybe the game needs a +1 leadership per rank bonus?! Although that wouldn't help the 'unbreakable' situation.
Your buddy should challenge your general at the first opportunity. If you accept, you could lose him. If you refuse, you lose all the rules he gives to the unit.
@@adam-mf4lu You can't challenge a specific character. So you have to go through the lesser ones first.
there is no refusing in line hammer, you could however end up fighting a T10 dwarf lord so killing him might be tough.
Love this
Great job