Parallel batteries: one bank keeps charging when all the others are already full. But why???
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- After a short break over the Christmal Holidays, I'm finally back in the Off-Grid Garage!
Today, we are having a closer look at a strange phenomenon that has haunted my battery shelf for a long time. When fully charged, the middle battery keeps charging far longer than the other two batteries even they are all in parallel!
I made you an awesome white board drawing where we discuss both speculative causes: is the internal resistance in this battery higher or lower?
After measuring the internal resistance, the answer is clear. Clear as mud!
Battery resistance tester:
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Andy look to your Mosfets - Not all Mosfets are equal - BMS with Mosfets have different forward resistances and/or different numbers of Mosfets in parallel will have different resistances - older cheaper Mosfets tend to have higher forward resistant which get worse as the heat up - a crude test would be to check which BMS get hot under similar high loads - Hugs from UK
I agree with Trevor. Also, the on resistance of Mosfets is non-linear over current. In other words, you will get different resistances at different currents.
@@marklockwood7592 That's so right- there have been a lot of advances in Mosfet' design and material purity in recent years - I imagine not all manufactures have caught up - some e-bikers have pepped up their bikes by the simple expedient of changing the Mosfets in their controllers.
@@marklockwood7592 Intersting. Maybe use three identical BMSs as proposed by @stefanvanzyl9090 to see how things change.
I would think that he could swap bms to see if the condition migrates with it. That might shed some light on the issue.
@@wg6215 Sounds like a plan
I've got to say, these JK Inverter BMS are nice, I've got 3 running in parallel right now, soon to be 5. Andy, you have helped me a lot in understanding these BMS and how to connect them and get them working right, thank you from sunny Nevada USA.
I think the problem comes from the chemistry of the cells, they are not the same brand, therefore different manufacturing, the chemistry must vary. It would be necessary to make a charge/discharge curve of one of the cells of each pack and check if the absorption duration varies between the cells.
I have a similar situation between my 4 parallel batteries. Two of them are CALB329Ah and two of them are envision 306Ah and 308Ah. The Envision batteries seem to get full first and under certain conditions they can even backfeed energy into the CALBs. I assume it has to do with slightly different voltage curves And as you said it's not an issue in practice.
Happy new year Andy and community. Can you also measure the battery bank itself, this way you have your bank and BMS resistance. There could be a difference. Maybe also validate with the same clampmeter what the real current and voltage is, set the BMSes accordingly. Keep up the good work this year! Thanks for all your efforts in debunking all myths and issues related to batteries, chargers etc🎉
Thanks Edward and Happy New Year to you as well.
Yes, some have mentioned that here that the BMS could interfere with the measurement. I'll do more testing.
Happy New Year Andy!!! ...and from us in the Caribbean.... Happy Three Wise Men Day!!!
Happy New Year to the Caribbean!
I think the difference are caused by the measuring accuracy of the BMS. The BMS measures the voltage and decides if the battery is full or not. You have determined that this happens at 55.2 volts. But each BMS has its own accuracy. We are talking about small differences, as you note yoursel, so a measurement accuracy of 0,1% could mean that one BMS trips in reality at 55.25Volt while the other trips at 55.14Volt.
The BMS only measures the voltage but does not control or regulate the charging. Even if one BMS shows only 50V, the battery itself will charge exactly the same. (Obviously, the OVP of the BMS will not work correctly ins such a case)
Measure the voltage drop across the positive connections and then the negative connections (input to output) of each bms with the same current flowing through each to see if the BMS is causing the issue (maybe the FETs have a higher forward bias)
I think the different charging current is as a result of the availability of internal active balancer in the JK BMS.
All the cells in the JK BMS bank are balanced and takes the all the energy they can store.
I suggest you verify the overall Watts hour stored in each bank and compare with the rated capacity.
Thank you for all the good work you are doing.
How long until the middle bank catches up? I can't imagine it being more than a minute or so? Do you see the same if you charge to 3.5V? If you do, how long does it take to equal out now?
I have noticed the very same thing with my system.
In particular my 1 bank of 3P x 16s Identical cells (EVE 280's), identical BMS x 3 packs wired similar to yours.
All batteries were from a single batch, BMS's from same production run. Active balancers also same production run. All were installed and commissioned within days of each other.
In my case (and yours) cell capacity matching of the banks is the only difference. The best "capacity matched" bank, takes the longest to discharge and recharge as compared with the others. In your situation, you could also add the small differences within your different bms's.
Thanks for sharing. I have also the aluminium bus bars, so more variables to play with. I really don't think it's the BMS...
The one symptom I noticed was the middle shelf having a slightly lower voltage than the other two when charging above 3.4V, which explains why it charges for longer.
But as to why it has a lower state of charge, I guess you'd need to look at each variable in isolation, such as swapping out the cell busbars or the BMS with one of the other batteries etc.
There could be a small difference in measuring the voltage across the three different BMS. Some here have seen a slightly higher voltage, you see a smaller one...
I have more insight in one of the next videos...
Seems like that middle shelf voltage is always a .1-2v lower. Need to check voltage drop of bms and circuit breakers under load.
I don’t know if one of the battery cables has one more strand of wire or a thickness and size of the aluminum bars. But I will check out a cold beer 🍺 and get back with you 😊
please test us some NA-ion 220Ah batteries! PLEEASEEE
I love this Battery bank Self !
Sou do Brasil tenho um sistema off grid e adoro seus vídeos parabéns !
Sweet setup! Your garage is the electricity and free solar energy Valhalla. So I bought a BMS active balancer that doesn't have any visual or bluetooth notifications. I connected it for a few days and think it worked bc the cell voltage difference is minimal. Do you suggest leaving it on? Doesn't it interfere with mppt or inverters/buck converters..?
Dear Andy, what I found in my shelf, that when charging with Jk weeker cell goes higher voltage, then active balancer takes out energy, but when current go's down at 55.2 this weeker cell starts to use more ampers and, and active balancer put back energy to weeke for absorption. While pasive balancer was not able to make so big trouble for weeker cell.
So, my prediction is that please change active balance current from 2A to 0.1A and look for a few days. You will be surprised that weeker current is enough.
I’m a bit puzzled: By not measuring the impedance from each busbar across the cables into each MCB, through each MCB, and across each battery, you still have 3 unknowns (at least, unmeasureds) in the system-the Positive busbar to MCB positive output and negative MCB output to negative busbar for each of the 3 batteries. This might explain higher resistance and lower voltage of the middle shelf battery.
A second source of variation in resistance could be your busbar connection configuration. I’d have to go back and see the video(s), but I think you did use a diagonal config and kept the MCB to busbar positive cables equal length (to each other) and negative cables equal length (to each other). In theory, each of the unmeasured cable/busbar cumulative resistance should be the same if you used diagonal wiring and had same distance between each battery cable.
Unmeasured Sources of variance could be torques, washers, crimps, different wire chemistries, corrosion, and-outside the wiring-the MCBs when closed.
If, after you have done the swapping of the BMS’s (I’m assuming YT production times and you’ve already done the swapping), and the slower charge/load rate doesn’t follow the middle BMS, you might look at these things which are currently assumed.
It's because the three bms's are fighting each other. For power. ❤❤
Hi Andi, das JK misst eine niedrigere Voltzahl, während die anderen beiden bereits die 55,2 Volt erreicht haben. Man kann doch das JK von Hand kalibrieren. Wenn man das JK bei beispielsweise 54,7 Volt auf 55 Volt kalibriert, dann wird es das erste BMS sein, welches die 55,2 Volt erreicht und auch als erstes runterregeln. Sind es diese kleinen Zusatzboxen, die die BMS mit dem Cerbo verbinden, welche für das Herunterregeln verantwortlich sind? Normalerweise sind doch die Solar-Charge-Controller für das Herunterregeln zuständig und nicht das BMS? Das hat sich doch erst mit den kleinen Boxen geändert?.
The BMS does not control the current flow. It's on or off. The voltage is what it is, independent of what is displayed.
Andy regarding alu or copper the thickness is important but also the contact area and material of the bolts count. I have a similar situation, need to find time to investigate since it stress more one of the batteries.
Well, the contact area is not too important if the torque is sufficient. Whe have tested this here and could push over 230A through the tiny contact area of terminal and bus bar: ua-cam.com/video/VPQvs-2YYzA/v-deo.html
And I'm still running this exact setup in the top and bottom battery.
Merry Christmas and a happy hangover.
Did you zero the low ohm meter?
How repeatable is the zero measurement?
How repeatable are the resistance measurements?
How matched are all the cells?
First, please notice the charge voltage and the voltage at the battery
At 8:09 they match for each battery (approx), - the 55.2V to 54.8V offset is due to the bus-bar-to-battery drop at 80A?
V1 V2 V3
Batt V 54.84 54.82 54.8
My goodness.
Battery current diverging during charging as each battery comes up to fully charged at a different time due to variations in manufacture, wiring etc etc, leaving the one with a lower relative SOC to soak up potentially undesirable levels of current in a system that does not monitor individual battery current? That can't be right as it's been stated a few times in the past by the channel operator that he's checked and his batteries don't have this problem. I do remember some guy banging on about this in the past and that seemingly cluey guy also said that it happens to pretty much every battery system out there which is why the commercial setups monitor this sort of thing. We're not quite there though as apparently it's not really a problem, but give it a couple of years and we'll see how the story evolves.
It is true what they say. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You just have to leave the horse there and hope it eventually works it out for itself.
happy new year😎
To you as well my friend!
Hallo Andy, ich weiß nicht ob ich es abschließend richtig verstanden hab, aber den Stromfluß zu deinen Batteriebänken bestimmt grundsätzlich mal der Spannungsunterschied. Die Zellen haben beim Laden eine bestimmte Spannung erreicht (z.B.55,0V). Der Unterschied oder die Differenz zur eingstellten Ladespannung (55,2V) beträgt nur noch 0,2V. Wären jetzt alle Innnenwiederstände gleich, würde überall der gleiche Strom fließen. ABER, die Spannungen der Zellen (Bänke) sind unterschiedlich, verrechnet mit dem jeweiligen Innenwiederstand bekommt man einen anderen Stromfluß bis zur vollen Aufladung. Am Ende der Aufladung haben alle Bänke die gleiche Spannung. Aber bis dahin ist das Verhältnis aus unterschiedlichem Innenwiderstand und Spannungsunterschied der Bänke mit der Ladespannung entscheidend. Nur ein Spannungsunterschied treibt den Strom durch einen Widerstand. I=U/R also "Spannungsunterschied, geteilt durch den Innenwiderstand = der aktuelle Strom" oder 0,2V/0,011Ohm=18A, was deinen Beobachtungen nahe kommt. Kannst gern auf deine Batteriebänke umrechnen. VG Jan
Interesting Topic, ... as I have three 24v 280 Ah Eve battery banks (purchased one or two years apart), that all have the same 3 BMSs; with one battery bank charging or discharging at lower amps. I have suspected difference in individual battery cell chemistry and internal resistance; not sure. Was going to switch battery bank positions and keep bms positions while cleaning all bus bars and bms wire loom connects (someday), .. as a test for learning more all the time ... for later. Not immediate concern as my setup is working good. Look forward to your next discovery on this topic. 🐾🐾🎶🌠 15:26
OK, so, if your banks are from different age, they may charge a bit different. That will be quite normal. Calendar age takes its toll. But yeah, swapping the positions can mitigate that.
The difference may be in the bmses themselves. It would be worth checking the impedence across the bms alone, then the battery banks alone.
I don't think that this impedance measurement can be used to explain anything. As you mentioned: it uses a 1 kHz signal to evaluate the impedance. Your BMSs will have some capacitors across the rails and therefore disturb the measurement. Finally, it is the resistance at DC, which steers the current, not an impedance at 1 kHz.
Good point. Thanks for sharing.
Hi,
the different impedeance would cancel out during an discharge/charge cycle, but you have not taken into account:
a) if discahrged, (and then leaving idle during the night) the banks will equalice by voltage and so charge the bank witch was discahrged most du to lower resistance.
b) your top bank has higher capacity, and so lower resistance provinding more power
First see if it follows the BMS when swapped. If not, I would set up a high current flow and measure for voltage drop in the milliamp range on both the positive and negative cable paths of the middle battery. That is how I found a weak connection on my solar system.
Andy, it's because the Australian sun doesn't like the middle pack 😅 or maybe the solar panels are misbihaving.
Hello Andy, and happy new year....
Just a down side to things......here in UK ....our days are getting longer and yours are getting shorter......ha ha
(Don't pay it back in 6mths)
I take it all your BMS have same settings, but as you said in last minute of video.....
You have different BMSs and all 3 are working on 3 different banks....
Ok top back is 305ah
Bottom 2 are same but with different bus bars and different BMSs.......for get the top one.
Now the lower 2..... different BMSs, different bus bars , different temperatures (due to hight day night thing)
Different age.
I'm thinking it be something simple.... forget data thing......also middle one is first of the 280 ah cells connected to dicarcarge point???
Is it as simple as this bank is next low ah bank and so discharge a little more everyday than bottom bank????
I know you have built a fantastic battery bank and its well perfectly well laid out.....
You do have a Mish mash of cells BMS and bus bars.....
If it was all the same.....then I would ask the question as you have.
I'm a fitter on plant equipment......you can have two machines.....but both are not alike...
Never over look the basics.....forget data.
I don't think it will help, but thats how end up fixing faults.
Sorry for going on Andy.
Look fwd to out come.
I think your guess is right. The middle battery get's fully charged last and the top and bottom absorb earlier. But it could also be the cells or the BMS voltage drop 🥴
Thanks Andy
Andy can you notice or measure any degradation to the batteries for the 2 years of use? Maybe determine true life expectancy?
I made a video about it here: ua-cam.com/video/GFuY8MrDAfA/v-deo.html
Would measuring and recording the voltages across each individual bank with an accurate DMM while simultaneously recording the amperages, either charging or discharging, allow you to use ohms law to determine the overall resistance of each bank? I imagine each bank uses different sensors to evaluate the amperage going in and out of the battery banks? There might be some significant variance between them as well, particularly at high or low charging rates. Their response may not be as linear as one would like. It would also be interesting to check the voltage differences at different locations on the bus bar - at high amperages, even small resistances could cause significant, and therefore measurable, voltage drops.
Happy NewYears!
My heltec bms screen shows like your jk-bms. I wonder why ? Referring to toe video appearance ! It identified my heltec bms as JK_BD6A17S8P . Is Heltec using jk-bms software ?
No, not at all. The Heltec uses its own software.
Maybe the active balancer has higher parasitic losses than the passive balancers?
That would be huge losses resulting in heating up the BMS!
You should give your family not only one photo, even not two. For next christmas: give them a tablet with your channel in repetition mode! And the year after a webcam into your garage.
Hahaha, great advice!😂
Hi Andy, could you or one of your subscribers please help, I'm a newby to battery's and solar but wanted to give it a go...I have 4x 12V 120ah lithium battery's and with my 10a lithium charger its take's them up to 14.6 volts when charging but after awhile they settle at 13.3v...is the 14.6 doing any damage to them...also what voltage should I not go past when discharging them...thank you so much for any advice....Steve from Perth WA
Hello Steve🙋♂️
14.6V is pretty much the maximum these batteries can be charged to. As there are 4 cells in each battery, it means, each cell will be charged to 3.65V which is again the maximum these cells can handle. The battery management system (BMS) in these batteries will turn off charging if one of the cells goes over this 3.65V. So, it is almost impossible to charge to exactly 14.6V because the cells are never 100% balanced.
Recommended is a more conservative charge voltage of 13.8V-14.2V for these batteries. This will still fully charge the batteries but is more gentle to the cells.
That the batteries are settling after you take the charger away is perfectly normal. They are still 100% charged.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Thank you so much Andy
Change the BMS
Could it be that the middle cells suffer with higher self discharge?
Hey Andy, Happy New Year. Would you believe it, but I've just ordered SIX Seplos Mason 15kWh batteries for an electric catamaran I'm completing! I'm thinking of powering it with four EPropulsion Navy 6.0 motors. It looked like your boat maybe had an EPropulsion motor too
Hi i would like to make a battery pack for my house and i need your help!
I have 169piece li-ion(3.3-4.0v) ~40ah battery's and i would like to make them as 13s12p system!
1 modul would be 13series ~48v
I will have an MPP Solar PIP 58048 MKX inverter for charging!
1. Which bms should i use? (i need 12 parallel strings and later more and more)
2. How to make the communication with 12 bms? (or do i need to communicate between the inverter and the 12bms)
Thank's László!
Very hard to tell. As this is a new system you need to make your own design. Think about the maximum load you will have on your system now and in the future. How much solar, how big is the inverter? Do you want communication? So a lot of data needs to go into your system design first.
If you have 12 parallel batteries with 12 cells in series, you need 12 BMS. You can never go wrong with the JK-BMS in my opinion.
Thanks i thinks the Same. 5kw off grid inverter and 5-6kw solar panel. Max load is 32a one phase, but never will max at the same time i think. Jk 0.6a or the new 2a?
Thanks
Voltage Current Calibration of the BMS! I use 3 Pace BMS after calibration oft the BMS on 3,65 Voltage everything is spot on! Also The Neey Balancer can be calibrated… I tested 10 Neeys on 1 Battery at 58,4V they are all slightly off 😉 after calibration everything is good… balance Leeds calibrated is also possible!
But this would not explain, why the middle batterie charges longer if the BMS is slightly uncalibrated.
The BMS's software could be the issue..I can't imagine that they are identical from different manufacturers..But, I have no expertise, to have a compelling opinion..
mines still working very good saving us power bills , after 13 months ,27v - 8 eve 280ah cells . Victron 1200va and 100/50 mppt in 24v mode ,battery is very efficient , only had that one issue with BMS crapping itself ,, love it free power free aircon
Why is you JK BMS displaying 20 charge cycles in almost 2 years time? Is it reset?
Hey Andy, Did You Use Di-Electric Paste Between All Copper-Aluminum Dissimilar Metals Connections? Maybe The JK BMS Has Slower Charging Parameters?? Do The Cables Run At Different Temperatures To Then Show Different Rates Of Charge Flow??? 🤔😜🤣😁😎
The bmses in use here do not regulate or control charging, they simply intervene by disconnection when a parameter exceeds the setpoint.
No paste or grease has been used. I tried a couple but hat best experience without any of that stuff.
Interesting behaviour, let’s see what swapping the BMS out shows over time.
EEL has a new DIY battery box for the jk inverter BMS if you need an enclosure? I’m sure there are a lot of ppl here who would appreciate a review of their new product.
You can't characterize the impedance of an electrochemical system at just one potential (open circuit like you did) and at only one frequency and expect to learn much from it. The impedance will also be a function of soc.
Andy, Don’t measure across different BMSes, go to the battery pack directly!
Each banks was fully isolated and not connected when measuring.
I meant to say that measuring across a BMS is not going to yield reliable results, you got to measure before the BMS in my opinion.
Different BMS have different mosfets (type and amount) resulting in different impedance.
Heya, very stange what the jk batterie is doing, it can'tt be from the 2A balance because it's only 2A and I wonder if it's a jk bms is the cause. that lead to only 2 things the aluminum bushbars or the chemistrie inside the cell's are differant. oh yeah this is the last vlog from you out of 476 vlog in your playlist so I'm back to the future lol
Oh, wow, you made it. Can't believe you watched (almost) all my videos and finally caught up. Thanks a lot for all your comments along the way which I all read.
The batteries form this bank are the same batch as the ones in the bottom shelf, so I doubt, the chemistry is that different. My guess is the aluminium bus bars and their contact to the aluminium terminals underneath.
We will find out soon, I guess...
Have you verified the BMS setting are all the same? Try swapping the JK BMS with the bottom one. This will verify if it's the BMS, or something else.
BMS settings are the same in terms of balance start voltage. All other parameters don't matter. The BMS is not in control of charging/discharging the battery.
caused by quality of balancing
Hi Andy!
🥇
family doesnt have only pictures . they have your update videos too ..i have a silly question ... ...can u ask JK guys if they are going to try any sodium specs and parameter posibilities in their new inverter bms.. ? as well as victron.. ... because thet sell some newer all in one inverters and its a shame to no have some extra future abilities!!!!
You can use just any BMS for NA+ batteries, I would say just from looking at the specs of these cells.
The impedances look fine. I thought through a number of scenarios and the one that seems most likely to me would be battery temperature. The middle pack would probably be the warmest due to being sandwiched between the other two.
* Could very well be the temperature of the middle pack is higher during long charging stints due to being inbetween the other two packs, significantly increasing its capacity.
* Probably not any sort of current limiting.
* Probably not minor differences in native capacity since everything is top-balanced. Top balancing does not cause any temperature variations though so it would not prevent temperature from causing the issue.
* BMS brainfarts. But if you look at a graph and the charging curve is smooth, then probably not.
Temperature is my best guess.
-Matt
your not cross pulling current
Hi 🎉😊
🥈
Breaker
Hi🎉🎉🎉🎉
🥉
Like# 127
Es ist lustig, einen Deutschen in Australien zu sehen!❤
Or reading German comments on an English channel😂
Have a look at cell 11 in the middle shelf. At 87% SoC it is already above 3.45V. I believe this single cell causes the internal resistance of the whole battery bank to be higher than the other banks, resulting in this "problem".
I have two Seplos banks (with NEEEEEEEY active balancers) where I observe similiar behaviour, when charging with 100-140A (50-70A per bank on average) cell 9 in bank 1 goes to much higher voltage than the others. When discharging at moderate Ampeages the voltages are fairly equal, but when discharging with >100A the same cell has the lowest voltage.
Highest voltage when charing and lowest when discharging means the weakest cell. I also observe that the bank with the weak cell charges slower than the other bank.
That’s my issues , great observation !
I think it is due to the balancer, the middle shelf will have a more even cell capacity and so they all reach 100% at about the same time, meaning it can absorb more energy, the other two shelves will be more imbalanced so once ONE cell is at 100% the overall current will drop because of them all being in series, even though the other cells may only be at 95% or so.
Hi Andy, try to measure the voltage drop across the battery bank BMS during discharging and charging. Maybe the BMS internal resistance changes/different during discharging and charging.🙂
also measure the voltage drop across each bms at high current level and see if it has high deviation berween 3 bms (at same current)
Andy, I believe that the middle battery pack is better balanced than the other two, which causes it to have a slightly higher resting voltage than the other two banks. When you slowly discharge them, the middle pack then discharges more as it has a SLIGHTLY higher voltage overall for the first few minutes/ Ah discharged
When you do a higher discharge rate, the overall voltages of each pack are dragged down into the flatter portions of the curve, which will then make the battery packs all supply similar current, hiding the higher resting voltage.
Since you are working with 4 sets of variables here: cell size (304 vs 280), cell busbars (CU vs AL), bmses and the effects of longer cabling for the lower packs, I propose that you fit 3x identical BMSes for 1-2 weeks - preferably connecting them to your raspberry Pi / VRM to allow for logging and totalizing - This is "easy" since you already have all these new JKbmses which were bought at the same time and can run the same firmware.
My hypothesis is that the higher trailing charge rate for the middle pack will disappear after 3-5 cycles
Agreed. Eliminate some variables, and my guess would be the same as yours.
Agree with this statement
The voltage difference at charging is the key give away..
Top and bottom pack have a higher pack voltage when charging, there for are less balance.
Furthermore, as you paralleled 3 packs, once the difference between the packs becomes more than 2 mv, the batteries will try to balance out ( from my own exp.)
@@houseofancients It looks like the top and bottom batteries have a lower delta voltage in the cells. at 9:58 the top and bottom battery have a delta of 25mV and the middle battery has a delta of 62mV. Although that might be because of the higher current in that battery. I wonder if the battery cells were balanced if this issue would be solved.
Aaaannnnnd. Balancing is wasting some energy right? 😊 So little bit here and little bit there. My opinion is that with such count of variables this "problem" not worth another try/guess. It may still end up with a wrong conclusion. Thanks Andy for all the good work!
I have some Jakiper JK48V100PRO batteries. With one of the packs, I observe some of the same as you do. That is the oldest pack and it has slightly different cells inside. Different model cells and possibly from a different manufacturer. Possibly with a slightly different charging curve? But as you said, it is not a problem.
Is the middle shelf the 280K and the bottom 280 not-K and of course the 304's are also non-K type. Just a subtle difference in electrolyte and therefore a slight change to the charge curve?
Like you say, its not causing problems, and other than swapping round BMS's or busbars eliminate those variables its the only difference other than capacity - unless the middle shelf were B-grade, or a different factory or batch is maybe all it takes to shift the charge curve a little.
Hi Andy, what if the problem was the real capacity of each battery?
maybe as the years go by they have different abilities that bring you this problem.
I don't think the problem is the BMS.
Just to the side of the discussion. I use the YR1035 to quickly test the internal resistance of LiFePo4 cells. I then tested the same cells in a combination for battery banks via the EBC-A20 PC software and finally the same application with the EBC-A40L. All these tests were performed on dozens of Winston 60Ah cells and 16x EVE 304 Ah cells. All the Ohm values were completely different from each other even for single cell. Often even orders of magnitude different. You perform this task with the YR1035 for all three banks, so the implication of the instrument will most likely be very similar for all measurements. However, please remember that the real internal resistances will MOSTLY be quite far away from the results you define.👋Anyway Thank you.
Yeah, if you use different devices to measure the resistance, you will most likely get different results.
I guess the Battery Shelf 2022 might deserve its own video about the performance and cycles in the past 2 years I guess.
And then it might also deserve a protection well known as DENKMALSCHUTZ cause it is so iconic cause everyone can recognice the long and winding road back then.
And it is clean and nice - compared to the collection of batteries that appeared seconds later.
After a long and winding road with EVE LF160 cells grade B we finally got a set of 16 x EVE LF280K grade A from a german electrician shop in Hannover.
Grade A means in this case: all produced on tthe same day same production site and a row of serial numbers with a 305 Ah result for each cell over 3 single discharging test with EBC A40L in a heated room with 25°C according to EVE 's test procedure described in their 20 page long description.
305 Ah means they are also running quite close from top to bottom with the Seplos BMS balancing close to nothing cause max deviation is about 0,002 V but only 2 are better cause 13 are 0,001 .
And that is most likely not a cell difference but caused by the position in the battery cause when I mixed it up the results were not the same and the worst became the best. When I put it back in the previous order I got the same result as before, this time again the worst cell in the battery, whicch means from best to worst it is just a question where the cell sits in the battery cell chain. And the top balancing is a rather short procedure till its done.
This is a complete different result and world compared to the LF160 Grade B cells (have been lasered and produced within about 7 months).
In my case the 100Ah set says "battery fully charged" at 55V and disconnects charging. EVEs of 300+Ah stabilize at 55V and don't absorb anymore, while 300Ah+ CATLs get to 55.2. Maybe something to do with cable lengths also? Cable lengths are pretty random between ~25cm and 2m. I'm thinking of a small V-drop across them.
🦦 Happy new Year lovely Andy 🎉 so first question of the year whats that -🫃🏼eh 😵💫 no but when are we going to test the sodium ion batteries 🫣🥰🙏
Happy New Year, Ian.
Soon, my friend, soon... Na+ is coming...
How long does the middle takes longer? How much energy more or less or equal? Complete curve of middle and bottom in direct compatison?
I would say around 10min until it catches up with the other two banks. At an average charge current of ~25A that could be 5Ah. Seems excessive to me...
I don't really have a device which can measure the charge curve of a whole bank... wait.... maybe...💡
When you swap out the bmses, please redo the impedance measurement to check for the influence of the bmses!
Yes, absolutely!
I think is the BMS not the batteries, I think the JK will get more current when you are almost fully charged (say 55.0). But we will see that in your next video. Thank you for doing all the hard work for us !
Thank you Marco!
Powerwall turned 2yo, time to help the toddler to talk to you.
Hahaha, it's talking now 😂
Prosit Neujahr. Ich würde das JK BMS tauschen mit dem Unteren Overkill . Dann weißt du sicher das es das BMS ist oder nicht. LG an deine bessere Hälfte.
Thanks Marcus. Swapping the BMS is certainly the easier way to find out. I'll do some more testing and see what I can find...
Hey Andy, Happy New Year! Just wanted to ask about the 3D printer update and if you share any of your STL files you designed or find useful?
Always enjoy your videos and congratz on the boat!
Yes, I will share all the STL files. I haven't done any printing since but will be designing some stuff in the near future.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Thank You!! cant wait :)
Yeah swap bms would tell if bms is the cause.
But i guess it is because of the active bms method.
Maybe it will waste more energy than passive and take longer to fully charge. 😅
passive balancing discharges higher voltage cells via resistors - throwing away energy as heat.
Active balancing discharges a higher voltage cell into a capacitor, and then uses the stored energy to charge up a lower cell - less heat overall
@@stefanvanzyl9090in theory, but maybe in practice the JK pulls more power over time?
@@LibertyDIY BMS power consumption by itself is in the order of a few milliamps. These packs are cycled daily and the behaviour is highly repeatable one day to the next -even a 20mA consumption/wastage difference over 24 hours is only a 0.48Ah difference, which would be replenished in less than a minute at this 40A charging rate difference
good afternoon andy andy question, I'm a little confused about the communication via can bus between the cerbo gx and the new jk bms, you have to modify the internet cable or you can use an original one without modifying it, that's my question, I'm confused and thank you in advance, andy
Yes, you can either make you own cable or buy the overpriced Victron Type A cable. Both will work.
Andy, good afternoon, thank you for the response, but do you have a diagram on how to make the cable? I would appreciate it a lot.@@OffGridGarageAustralia
I have 4 PCS 3.2v 280AH bank 24v all though charging I set the charger to 5A for better absorption , “ the issue was I charged the bank to 14.6v = 3.65v so post 2 be but I have a 2 batteries 1 in 2 different banks each 1 of those batteries only charged to 3.37v and 1 battery in 2 different banks charged up to 4.0v and the 3.37v batteries stayed there ! What’s you idea “ Please “ ?
Hi Andy , hace meses te sugerí usar una misma marca de BMS , solo estás haciendo que algunas baterías trabajen más duro que otras 😅
Glad you had a great family Christmas Andy, you deserved it. 👍
Happy 2024, and have great year.
Interesting… I’m still watching the video but my speculation: maybe different BMSs are not such a great idea??
Can I hedge my bets:
Guess 1: I think it may be related to bus bars, thicker does not always equal lower overall system resistance, as there are small contact areas and the issues with corrosion.
Guess 2: Overall ESR of the battery is just higher due to the goop they used.
Guess 3: The BMS has a higher resistance.
Swap the BMS around, if it doesn't follow the BMS, replace the bus bars with same as the other packs.
Only way to be sure, nuke it from orbit :-)?
I'm almost sure that the problem arose because of BMS
Because every BMS measures current based on the voltage drop on both ends of a resistor (that is, within the internal design of the BMS, resistors of a small value are placed to measure the current).
It seems that JK BMS uses resistors to measure current that have a lower value than other companies
A while ago, I had a similar problem, and the reason was the internal resistance of the multimeter (for measuring current).
You can confirm that this is actually the cause of the problem by placing the JK BMS in the lower or upper battery pack and observing the results
I have the same but i am using 3 identical jk bms. But my cells have a different manufaktorer. My CATL cells still take Power even if the eve and the rept stopped.
So, what is the title of the video that answers the question presented in this video? The next videos appear to discuss the "reset" issue with the JK Inverter BMS.
Could it be that because of the lower total resistance, bms included, of the center bank more ah were removed and therefor mire AH were required to charge the cell? The voltage was lower during charge, after all.
More testing needed. When I setup the Peter boards, I found something interesting...
Can't wait to hear about what you have found.
My daly banks and the JK banks give similar results
What about the individual battery isolators’ contact resistances? You might want to test them also.
Good to see you again Andy!
Glad you had a nice break with the family 😊
Hej jeg lader en blok på 133 kwh (10 stk. af 48 volt *16 stk. a 3,65volt ) med hver sin BMS, i paralele tilslutning, ved opladning med 50A 55,7 volt, kan der ikke leveres nok strøm til alle sammen kan få den samme mængde strøm, der også noget forskel i BMS i deres opgaver, men efter opladningen med balancering over tid, det er fattigst det samme ved afladningen, på den konfiguration jeg har, tak for de gode videoer MVH. Henrik
Hi Andy Really enjoy your video info and style and may have partial answere to above glitch (not seen in comments). Following things I have learnedfrom LIPO ebike builds. First, assume things you can't change are valid/the same (cell chemisty, internal resistance, etc.). Next, make similar the controllable variables such as: cell temps, BMS model, BMS voltage calibration, lead length/size, cell SOC, etc. This would mean manual "balance" to actual full capacity or SOC, replacing vertical bus bars with equal length cables (maybe only for test) or at least connecting to bottom of one of them), measuring internal resistance at actual usage high current dc level vice ac impedance, replacing aluminum bars with same copper, and NO balancing during test. This should point to most of cause if ONE variable at a time changed. Or, since that would take a long time, just ignore it but keep in mind for next time 3 or more banks need to be in parallel. Can't find it right now but correct way to parallel 3 batteries/banks really looks weird (SLA but LFP also due to flat charge/discharge curve). Keep up the good work please and cold one sent., Dick
Thanks a lot, Dick!
Pfft. Magic of course.