Came here to say the same thing. The dude is an absolute beast. No, a MACHINE. He handled it with cold, calculating perfection. The efficiency of how he coordinated the ravagers attack with the biles was soooo good.
@@itsrye8001 zoun just got to the grand finals of the most recent gsl super tournament hes kind of unknown but doing very very well recently also beating clem
People seem to forget that Serral is human, and thus has certain weaknesses regarding his playstyles. He's always struggled against mutalisks in ZvZ which Reynor and Dark know and exploited like any smart player would and should do, winning thanks to that. No matter how good someone is, they can't be perfect.
@@joshuakim5240 fast muta switch can absolutely demolish an unsuspecting protoss. against terran, yea, not so much. widow mines and turrets are a bit too good in combination.
To be fair though, Toss doesn't need a sea of cannons to crush the opponent with skytoss, toss needs a sea of cannons to max out on skytoss in the first place. On the other hand, zerg does need a forest of spores to try and fight skytoss as otherwise, skytoss can just walk over zerg. Yes, that's an oversimplificatin but it does stand as a general rule.
Basically Gate units are worse than spitting roaches and cheesing is the only way to stay in the game since they have no viable units and need like 4-5 different techs just to counter single low tier techs.
@@alessiovalente7146 what era are you living in? actually I can't remember a time in any era when protoss was considered underpowered so idk what you're on about lol (spoiler: protoss is OP nowadays)
@@PretentiousZoan unfortunately, it's only strong on the ladder. In tournaments, it's still severely trailing due to the rather low skill ceiling that toss has. A lot of their late game comps lack micro potential so even if the player was able to play at 600 APM, the comp won't benefit from it. According to Aligulac, currently, Terran is leading by 7% and Protoss is lagging by 13%, which is not insignificant.
I feel like cannon rushing Serral is a very bad idea in general, he has such a reputation that I am sure people do it to him loads, making it a walk in the park for him to beat it, I personally feel like mid-game is Serral's "weakest" moment but even that is questionable lol, he is just such a well-rounded player.
@@snowdrop9810 Parting definitely. Classic and Stats occasionally does cannon rush too. Even a lower level player like HAS had some success with cannon rush against Serral.
I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took a Reforged to the knee Thus the glorious warcraft franchise has been ruined forever. Lets see when they remaster Starcraft 2 in 20 years and delete half the content
Does anyone know who the 3rd caster is? He sounds like that one lowko guy but I didn't hear him say "Hello effryone my name is Lowko!" so honestly it could be anyone.
10:50 Wow, I saw the Zealots fighting lings on top of the morphing banes and thought "there's no way they keep going". But then they did, and you all know how that ends.
How dare you cannon rush the finnish phenom bro...you new? Serral doesnt lose to cannon rush ever. I feel like when a toss does the cannon rush Serral should have a sign ready for the camera that says "FREE WIN...THX" :P
that's because the quality of players are very far. watch stats vs serral in the finals of this tournament. two guys at the top of their races. and see just how OP protoss is now compared to zerg. there was even a carrier rush build that stats did that Serral could do nothing against. That's why zerg generally doesn't go late game now. Serral said it and even Reynor. Because they'll most likely lose against a same strength protoss. Just go watch stats vs serral in the finals.
@@N0noy1989 I have watched it. Skytoss is beatable if you play properly. It’s even easier to beat for low level players because P will make mistakes. It’s not much different than playing vs brood lords or BCs. It’s not that hard to beat if you play smart
The main problem regarding Skytoss in ZvP is that it's not only boring, but lazy...and not to the fault of the players, mind you. Skytoss is basically "A-move with Carriers and Tempests, with a group of hotkeyed High Templars under them" with said High Templars being the only real source of micro. But, there's nothing that Protoss has that's more effective than this so there isn't much of a choice, and Zerg in return have to play 100x better to beat it with tons of perfectly executed Abducts, Parasitic Bombs, Neural Parasites, and Fungal Growths while praying that the Skytoss player doesn't just focus target kill the Ultralisks that are crucial for wiping out the Templar like any half-intelligent player would obviously do with their Tempests. It's beatable all right, but the amount of effort it takes to beat is eclipses the amount of effort it takes to play it (well, regarding ZvP at least. Terran just need a Ghost and a Raven to halfway kill this instantly). And, of course, it's not the Protoss players' fault; Protoss just for some stupid reason has all of its micro at the early-midgame and all of its lategame units are just oonga-boonga no-spells stat sticks (aside from the Mothership) rather than a mix of stats+abilities like Zerg and Terran in their late game have.
It's shame to see what happened with starcraft balance. I remember time when zerg player should have had 2 bases more than protoss and terran should've had 1 base more than protoss. Maybe blizzards will add blink for photon cannon in foreseeable future.
You might as well call it Zergcraft as it stands now,they have all strenghts and no weaknesses + the BS units like ravagers and swarmhosts that are sheer braindead RTS game design 101,you gotta put in 3x the amount of effort if you feel like suffering by going terran or heck,the meme race protoss is where you need multiple endgame tech to counter T1 units and still barely hang on,that is if you don't get lost in the forest of active abilities.
@@alessiovalente7146 unless Zerg matches up against a turtle 200 supply mech with a literal unbeatable army. Don’t get me wrong, ZvP is whack heavily being in favor for Z, I think lurkers need a nerf. But ZvT is pretty stagnant
nerf maru. best zerg player of all time = nestea, best toss = MC both are the kings in the past but maru is the best terran i ever seen. nestea is the best player of all time
@@germanturkish1664 Yeah. I remember the days when MC was around. His 2base all in were really strong. For Zerg, not sure Maru > Serral. He’s proven himself so many times. There was a time when Scarlett, Stephano and now Reynor have all gotten big wins. But consistent winning, only Serral.
Vipers abduct is too powerful. Its like instant-death button, the only in the game. I think the Abduct shouldn't affect Thors and Colossus (or maybe just units with 'massive' tag) for the sake of balance (and some logic).
@@Pzychosis siege tanks, lurkers, immortals, liberators, ghosts, disruptors.. too few? I'm ok with current mechanic if the blinding cloud would be removed. Otherwise the viper is too strong.
@@true_xander the only viable abducts on there is siege tanks lurkers and disrupters the other ones are complete nonsense LOL. Gl trying to abduct a ghost have fun with the emp spam
This is generally my problem with any games with Serral. At some point it's not fun to watch anymore since it eventually becomes a curbstomp. No doubt Serral is good but it becomes frustrating when the Zerg counter strats look too simple that it seems too OP. Oh, Carriers? Archons? Disruptors? Voids? Lemme just abduct ezpz lmnsqz. It's tiring to watch. It may just be my Protoss bias but come on.
You forgot the part where zerg ground units are completely useless against Toss air, as they pointed out in the video, you HAVE to suicide your hydras to beat airtoss, which is insane since hydras are a t2 high gas unit. Compare that to terran where even widow mines can do anti-air.
Nah, its just that the protoss player in this video is not on the same level as Serral. In the grand finals against top level protoss player like stats, Serral lost 0-3.
@@MrCrashDavi Weird you don't think it's insane that gate units are garbage vs others and need upgrades and sentinels just to stand a chance of reaching your enemy,then again you have zerg go brrrr ravager free hammer of dawn brrrr. Everyone looks at the finger of toss cheese strats and none at the moon of why,if they had viable units that wouldn't be the case.
Vipers do not need their hook ability... It's way too strong, or at least nerf it so it can't hook massive units... Pulling carriers... how is that even possible?
To the angry zergs that saw the stats v serral game that was uploaded yesterday. You can clearly see that zerg has a strong late game. Its just that stats played the games well no need for the NeRf PrOtoSs tOo OP comments lol
stats knows precisely how to abuse the OP protoss lategame. just move out as soon as your lategame army is done. It is impossible for the zerg to muster a lategame composition before the protoss. the other protosses will soon start copying stats.
Man, F@@k Starcraft. Zerg is OP, man!. Zoun is the one playing strategically. All Serral has to do is build units and that's it. C'mon. Zerg is OP! Damn!
it gets more and more obvious how the game is so much better without Nate, ZG, PiG. Lowko, Harstem and a guest pro-gamer are so much more pleasant to listen to.
@@balazsfejes8817 you mean besides their arrogance? Or how they make a lot of mistakes? Misscalls? Read game wrong compared to casters (such as wardi) who actually play more games and watch more games and are more up to date on games and builds? Or their toxic or vinegar attitude and jokes? Especially to the fans/twitch that are the only reason their job still exists? Or there lack of personal depth? Yes lets have more empty personalities like them that can do nothing else than fake hype and abuse memes and emotes!! Their annoying voices?
@@strateeg32 I don't like ZombieGrub too much but c'mon man. Caster, comentator in sports is there to add extra flavor to the game. So yeah, fake hype, good voice modulation, worse or better jokes. That is what they are about. I mean if I want to know what exactly is happeninig in game right now for 100% of the time I can literally just watch game by myself. Everyone has their preference but like for me Lambo is pretty bad as a caster. He has knowledge and skill of the game but as caster he simply doesn't work too well for me.
@@gigatrihard8607 if it was just fake hype and what not then there would be no issue. It about just being garbage all around. I even summed it up and the list is not even exhausted yet. It about their toxic behaviour and utter disrespect for the fans and the chat. And how many times do they miss stuff and then the observer of the game even helps them by hovering longer over it or make slow circles around it or goes with the mouse over it. Or even pulls out any information tab and still the casters either do not notice it or refuse to admit their mistake or admit they missed something vital. But even worse is when they totally misread the game or cannot tell what is happening or what build is being done. It is nice when a caster has actually seen so many games that he can tell you in advance what will happen and why. Or when a progamer says that a second stargate will be build but not used (and why it is build). It was funny to see that the pro-caster did not know about it nor believed it at first. I think it is just hilarious how many of these so-called procasters have this vinegar attitude and sheer arrogance. They do not understand that it not just their subs or donators that made them who they are and kept them alive
Wow, Serral didn’t even blink at that cannon rush. Cleanest hold ever.
It was tickle rush to him 🤭🤭😂
Came here to say the same thing. The dude is an absolute beast. No, a MACHINE. He handled it with cold, calculating perfection. The efficiency of how he coordinated the ravagers attack with the biles was soooo good.
This wasn't even a highlight. It's just a reminder that Serral is still one of the best in the world.
Did he just beat a nobody?
@@itsrye8001 Zoun is a pro who has been around for a while. He’s just not near serral who is at the top of the rankings being 16th against 1st
@@itsrye8001 zoun just got to the grand finals of the most recent gsl super tournament hes kind of unknown but doing very very well recently also beating clem
Oh I see. My apologies for calling him a nobody.
@@CenJohan by "rankings" I assume you mean MMR?
Ohhh close your eyes!
Lowko: What do you mean? I'm looking at this man, I love this xD
LOWKOW ON THE COMMENTARY WOOT WOOT
Wooooooooot
Its funny how Serral can crush ppl like 12 games in a row but he loses once to Clem or Reynor and ppl will say “he’s losing his touch” or something...
People seem to forget that Serral is human, and thus has certain weaknesses regarding his playstyles. He's always struggled against mutalisks in ZvZ which Reynor and Dark know and exploited like any smart player would and should do, winning thanks to that. No matter how good someone is, they can't be perfect.
@@joshuakim5240 everyone struggles against muta bro
@@someguy7474
Unless they play Toss or Terran, that is lol.
Thing is serral's bane seems to be reynor
@@joshuakim5240 fast muta switch can absolutely demolish an unsuspecting protoss. against terran, yea, not so much. widow mines and turrets are a bit too good in combination.
Did... Did I hear Lowko? HE'S GROWING AND I FEEL SO PROUD
It's amazing how invincible Serral becomes when he decides to go beyond Tier 1
"He was kind of memeing [...] protoss players were just sitting above cannons for 40 minutes"
5 minutes later...
"Ah, my forest of spores is complete"
To be fair though, Toss doesn't need a sea of cannons to crush the opponent with skytoss, toss needs a sea of cannons to max out on skytoss in the first place. On the other hand, zerg does need a forest of spores to try and fight skytoss as otherwise, skytoss can just walk over zerg. Yes, that's an oversimplificatin but it does stand as a general rule.
Lol the full Protoss experience
Basically Gate units are worse than spitting roaches and cheesing is the only way to stay in the game since they have no viable units and need like 4-5 different techs just to counter single low tier techs.
@@alessiovalente7146 what era are you living in? actually I can't remember a time in any era when protoss was considered underpowered so idk what you're on about lol (spoiler: protoss is OP nowadays)
Lol toss is the strongest race right now and players are still moaning. Truly a degenerate player base
@@PretentiousZoan unfortunately, it's only strong on the ladder. In tournaments, it's still severely trailing due to the rather low skill ceiling that toss has. A lot of their late game comps lack micro potential so even if the player was able to play at 600 APM, the comp won't benefit from it. According to Aligulac, currently, Terran is leading by 7% and Protoss is lagging by 13%, which is not insignificant.
I just hope StarCraft will still be played after 10-20 years... I just love people playing this game. StarCraft is an important part of my life!!!
Why is that?
@@mairuzo StarCraft helped me cope up with my problems and entertain me when no one can. Easily an important part of my life.
Those cannons got Serral Rushed
"Serral seemed to be enjoying himself"
How can you tell? He always has the same expression lol
I feel like cannon rushing Serral is a very bad idea in general, he has such a reputation that I am sure people do it to him loads, making it a walk in the park for him to beat it, I personally feel like mid-game is Serral's "weakest" moment but even that is questionable lol, he is just such a well-rounded player.
Grand Finals showed that early mid late. He lost it all.
Nah, its just that his opponent is not on the same level. The top protoss players do win some games with cannon rush against serral.
@@skychaos87 aka, parting, parting and parting right?
@@snowdrop9810 Parting definitely. Classic and Stats occasionally does cannon rush too. Even a lower level player like HAS had some success with cannon rush against Serral.
Just play like Reynor and you'll bet Serral.
Hi i love starcraft forever ❤❤❤
ur black
@@black_laser6054 LMFAO
I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took a Reforged to the knee
Thus the glorious warcraft franchise has been ruined forever. Lets see when they remaster Starcraft 2 in 20 years and delete half the content
No you don't you liar.
no one cares, but okay 🤔🤷
Does anyone know who the 3rd caster is? He sounds like that one lowko guy but I didn't hear him say "Hello effryone my name is Lowko!" so honestly it could be anyone.
It's lowko.
Yeah. It could be that reporter guy from the Harstem hour.
Lambo
There is 3 caster one is lambo as player caster. Lowko and another.
@@groken2365 no he didn't say he his lowko so he isn't lowko
Oh my god that was Lowko! ❤️👀
Love seeing these protoss cannon rushes
Hearing actual grandmasters commentating...so pleasant.
Feel great to see how serral counter protoss chees
10:50 Wow, I saw the Zealots fighting lings on top of the morphing banes and thought "there's no way they keep going". But then they did, and you all know how that ends.
How dare you cannon rush the finnish phenom bro...you new? Serral doesnt lose to cannon rush ever. I feel like when a toss does the cannon rush Serral should have a sign ready for the camera that says "FREE WIN...THX" :P
Serral has hyper power
gotta love the Dutch Duo
Lambo is german 😉
@@WalterEpp lowko+rotti is what I meant
Little protoss, close ur eyes))))
I ever wonder, why don't some (don't know how many) of the pros don't just shut down serral's scouting overlords/overseers
Video is 13:34 long... Such a missed opportunity.
Serral made that look easy
Please make best of starcraft 2 videos from 2017 to 2020.
Lowko with his cheesee
Does Serral have korean blood or what
Ay ay ay spicy start
Is Lowko the man imself is here ?
When Serral gets Cannon rushed..
He wins
King Serral
Vipers dont seem physically able to pull carrier’s....
Haha, ez for Joona!
Zoun, if you are reading this: you're so bad man
That was pretty one sided.
ohhh.. ravager can counter cannon rush strategy. now i know
First time i heard the commentators this disappointed
Imagine being the ape that cannon rushes serral lmfao
Lowko?!
It's impossible to cheese Serral.
Zoun need some tempest irl he getting picked apart by this commentating lol
No Russian comments? Wait a minute. Игра Серрала кажется каким-то абьюзом
again?
Its funny that in the lore Protoss are shown as a noble warrior race yet in game they have the cheesiest and dirtiest strats
Like building a 200 supply army and walking across the map. DAMN YOU , STATS!!!
hello everyone its LOWKOOOOOO
Goku vs Krillin
I can not stand watching ESL on twitch they put the commercials in the middle of matches! :(
Everyone whining about ZvP needs to watch this. Skytoss isn't OP, it's just boring but very beatable.
that's because the quality of players are very far. watch stats vs serral in the finals of this tournament. two guys at the top of their races. and see just how OP protoss is now compared to zerg. there was even a carrier rush build that stats did that Serral could do nothing against. That's why zerg generally doesn't go late game now. Serral said it and even Reynor. Because they'll most likely lose against a same strength protoss.
Just go watch stats vs serral in the finals.
@@N0noy1989 I have watched it. Skytoss is beatable if you play properly. It’s even easier to beat for low level players because P will make mistakes. It’s not much different than playing vs brood lords or BCs. It’s not that hard to beat if you play smart
The main problem regarding Skytoss in ZvP is that it's not only boring, but lazy...and not to the fault of the players, mind you. Skytoss is basically "A-move with Carriers and Tempests, with a group of hotkeyed High Templars under them" with said High Templars being the only real source of micro. But, there's nothing that Protoss has that's more effective than this so there isn't much of a choice, and Zerg in return have to play 100x better to beat it with tons of perfectly executed Abducts, Parasitic Bombs, Neural Parasites, and Fungal Growths while praying that the Skytoss player doesn't just focus target kill the Ultralisks that are crucial for wiping out the Templar like any half-intelligent player would obviously do with their Tempests.
It's beatable all right, but the amount of effort it takes to beat is eclipses the amount of effort it takes to play it (well, regarding ZvP at least. Terran just need a Ghost and a Raven to halfway kill this instantly). And, of course, it's not the Protoss players' fault; Protoss just for some stupid reason has all of its micro at the early-midgame and all of its lategame units are just oonga-boonga no-spells stat sticks (aside from the Mothership) rather than a mix of stats+abilities like Zerg and Terran in their late game have.
skytoss is far too easy to build/ control compare to zerg units. That's why it's OP
@@seichaibao so it's a matter of becoming more skilled to beat it, couldn't agree more. Sounds like the issue is with the player not the game.
It's shame to see what happened with starcraft balance. I remember time when zerg player should have had 2 bases more than protoss and terran should've had 1 base more than protoss. Maybe blizzards will add blink for photon cannon in foreseeable future.
Not sure if you’re aware of this, but they actually tried that pre-beta lol. Not exactly blink, but they were repositionable
You might as well call it Zergcraft as it stands now,they have all strenghts and no weaknesses + the BS units like ravagers and swarmhosts that are sheer braindead RTS game design 101,you gotta put in 3x the amount of effort if you feel like suffering by going terran or heck,the meme race protoss is where you need multiple endgame tech to counter T1 units and still barely hang on,that is if you don't get lost in the forest of active abilities.
@@alessiovalente7146 unless Zerg matches up against a turtle 200 supply mech with a literal unbeatable army. Don’t get me wrong, ZvP is whack heavily being in favor for Z, I think lurkers need a nerf. But ZvT is pretty stagnant
Yikes, turtle and let Serral mines out the map is not a good strat lmao.
That's all protoss players know how to do
Nerf Serral
nerf maru. best zerg player of all time = nestea, best toss = MC both are the kings in the past but maru is the best terran i ever seen. nestea is the best player of all time
@@germanturkish1664 Yeah. I remember the days when MC was around. His 2base all in were really strong.
For Zerg, not sure Maru > Serral. He’s proven himself so many times. There was a time when Scarlett, Stephano and now Reynor have all gotten big wins. But consistent winning, only Serral.
Vipers abduct is too powerful. Its like instant-death button, the only in the game. I think the Abduct shouldn't affect Thors and Colossus (or maybe just units with 'massive' tag) for the sake of balance (and some logic).
Wtf would they target then?? LOL
@@Pzychosis siege tanks, lurkers, immortals, liberators, ghosts, disruptors.. too few? I'm ok with current mechanic if the blinding cloud would be removed. Otherwise the viper is too strong.
@@true_xander the only viable abducts on there is siege tanks lurkers and disrupters the other ones are complete nonsense LOL. Gl trying to abduct a ghost have fun with the emp spam
massacre
Lowkoooooo
Highlights are less highlights as the time passes for this channel... who has 14 minutes to see a good play?
I hate playing TvT these day. Both side just turtle and mass BC or THORs these day even in Master rank. Nothing happens in the first 12-15 mins.
You’re basically saying that you turtle and mass bc/Thor, forcing the other to respond in kind
@@Schoolfunds1 no I usually try to break down their 3rd with tanks but so far, I am on the losing side lol.
This is generally my problem with any games with Serral. At some point it's not fun to watch anymore since it eventually becomes a curbstomp. No doubt Serral is good but it becomes frustrating when the Zerg counter strats look too simple that it seems too OP.
Oh, Carriers? Archons? Disruptors? Voids? Lemme just abduct ezpz lmnsqz. It's tiring to watch. It may just be my Protoss bias but come on.
You forgot the part where zerg ground units are completely useless against Toss air, as they pointed out in the video, you HAVE to suicide your hydras to beat airtoss, which is insane since hydras are a t2 high gas unit. Compare that to terran where even widow mines can do anti-air.
Nah, its just that the protoss player in this video is not on the same level as Serral. In the grand finals against top level protoss player like stats, Serral lost 0-3.
there isn't a more OP unit than the viper
the amount of damage it can do and those pulls, total BS
@@MrCrashDavi Weird you don't think it's insane that gate units are garbage vs others and need upgrades and sentinels just to stand a chance of reaching your enemy,then again you have zerg go brrrr ravager free hammer of dawn brrrr. Everyone looks at the finger of toss cheese strats and none at the moon of why,if they had viable units that wouldn't be the case.
Vipers do not need their hook ability... It's way too strong, or at least nerf it so it can't hook massive units... Pulling carriers... how is that even possible?
One of the casters must improve his english
Airtoss is trash against zerg damn
To the angry zergs that saw the stats v serral game that was uploaded yesterday. You can clearly see that zerg has a strong late game. Its just that stats played the games well no need for the NeRf PrOtoSs tOo OP comments lol
stats knows precisely how to abuse the OP protoss lategame. just move out as soon as your lategame army is done. It is impossible for the zerg to muster a lategame composition before the protoss. the other protosses will soon start copying stats.
Tempest is so weak vs zerg!
And vs Terran is too many average.
: )
Man, F@@k Starcraft. Zerg is OP, man!. Zoun is the one playing strategically. All Serral has to do is build units and that's it. C'mon. Zerg is OP! Damn!
it was 1 Cannon ... and little units .... against Zerg which can build 4,6,or8 units at the same time..
it gets more and more obvious how the game is so much better without Nate, ZG, PiG.
Lowko, Harstem and a guest pro-gamer are so much more pleasant to listen to.
Obvious? What's wrong with Nate, ZG and PiG?
@@balazsfejes8817 you mean besides their arrogance? Or how they make a lot of mistakes? Misscalls? Read game wrong compared to casters (such as wardi) who actually play more games and watch more games and are more up to date on games and builds?
Or their toxic or vinegar attitude and jokes? Especially to the fans/twitch that are the only reason their job still exists?
Or there lack of personal depth? Yes lets have more empty personalities like them that can do nothing else than fake hype and abuse memes and emotes!!
Their annoying voices?
I don't mind these guys but I did prefer the cast with the guest pro gamers.
@@strateeg32 I don't like ZombieGrub too much but c'mon man. Caster, comentator in sports is there to add extra flavor to the game. So yeah, fake hype, good voice modulation, worse or better jokes. That is what they are about.
I mean if I want to know what exactly is happeninig in game right now for 100% of the time I can literally just watch game by myself.
Everyone has their preference but like for me Lambo is pretty bad as a caster. He has knowledge and skill of the game but as caster he simply doesn't work too well for me.
@@gigatrihard8607 if it was just fake hype and what not then there would be no issue.
It about just being garbage all around. I even summed it up and the list is not even exhausted yet.
It about their toxic behaviour and utter disrespect for the fans and the chat. And how many times do they miss stuff and then the observer of the game even helps them by hovering longer over it or make slow circles around it or goes with the mouse over it. Or even pulls out any information tab and still the casters either do not notice it or refuse to admit their mistake or admit they missed something vital.
But even worse is when they totally misread the game or cannot tell what is happening or what build is being done.
It is nice when a caster has actually seen so many games that he can tell you in advance what will happen and why. Or when a progamer says that a second stargate will be build but not used (and why it is build). It was funny to see that the pro-caster did not know about it nor believed it at first.
I think it is just hilarious how many of these so-called procasters have this vinegar attitude and sheer arrogance. They do not understand that it not just their subs or donators that made them who they are and kept them alive