Think of the subpanel is an extension of a circuit (i.e. outlet box or junction box). You would not connect a neutral to a ground at an outlet plug or junction box. A subpanel is just a set of circuits with fuses off a high amperage feed, splitting the high amperage feed into lower amperage feeds. Another way to think of a subpanel is that it is a junction box and putting fuses on each outgoing line. A breaker is just a resettable fuse. The neutral and ground are only bonded (connected) at the first disconnect location downstream of the transformer which is typically the main breaker but could be disconnect without a breaker. The reason the ground is bonded to the neutral at first disconnect downstream of transformer is to give the current/amps/electrons a path back to source via the ground wire and ground rod through the earth soil in case there is a break in the neutral. You don't feel the voltage or current flowing through earth ground wire because it is very small but it can be measured. The utility company also grounds there side and has a neutral on a single phase line. Current/electrons always have to go back to source otherwise nothing would turn on. The voltage is the push or pressure on the electrons, like water pressure in a pipe. It is a misnomer that current only follows path of least resistance. Current follows all paths but is divided proportionally to resistance according to ohm's law. Therefore the super majority of current flows over the large low resistance wire verses through the earth. Now to the reason the ground wire which is the equipment grounding conductor is not bonded after the first service disconnect location is because there should not be any current flowing on the ground wire within the building. The ground wire can be thought of as for emergency use only current path in case a hot wire contacts the metal case. Another reason the ground is not bonded to the neutral downstream of service disconnect is in case of a break of the neutral and then all the current would flow back using the ground wire which is typically not insulated. That would be a fire risk and shock risk if the ground wire constantly had current flowing through it. The ground wire is an emergency path. It is also used to electrically bond things so there is not a voltage difference between conductive items. Electrical bonding is very important around pools and induced voltage locations such as power substations. There are many ways one can get hurt by electricity if one doesn't understand what it can do and where it can go. Hope this helps.
The ground rod is NOT a "path back to the source" ! It's sole purpose is to give a lightning strike a path to ground. It has nothing to do with being a suitable electrical ground.
@@mattywho8485 Just being argumentative... but "it's sole purpose" is lightening strikes? No electrician but why is it then "code" that outlets/receptcles are grounded? In the old days... grounds and neutrals were all attached to one bar... The service panel only had one "bar" from the manufacturer...
I bought a house with wiring so old it still had knob and tube and a pair of 60A fuse panels, one fed from the other (they used to be on their own meters, but that was removed along the way). The sub had all the neutrals and grounds tied, likely because it was done so long ago no one cared or even knew. And there's no place to do it anyway. As a temporary measure, I bought an isolated neutral bar, put it in, and did the necessary cleanup work.
I didn't think they even ran grounds back in knob and tube days. All that I came across didn't have grounds. They grounded all the neutral returns, and even ran bare wires as the return neutrals because they HAD to go to ground to complete the circuit.
@@tommywatterson5276 You are right. My story was incomplete. The knob and tube was in the attic and down the walls. The rest had been converted over to romex long ago, some of that old enough to not have a ground either.
The entire electrical system gets a big "F" Romex cable is not supposed to be used in exposed installations, dangerous conditions with the drain pipe near the panel, and the sump pump pit. A disaster waiting to happen. Probably overloading the main panel with the 60 amp sub panel being only 100 amp, those two hot wires in the sub panel don't appear to be 6 or 4 gauge. Then all the romex branch circuits runs shoved into that 2 inch NMC connector! Whole panel ought to be torn out, and start over!
@@ryanwoods4691 From what I recall about Romex many years ago if it was installed where it might be subject to possible damage, mechanical protection was required. Like running along the floor joists, I know the common practice is boring holes. My parents house (build in 1946) had sheathed cable but it was routed in the garage above the door header so it was protected. Same with the lights in the basement. When I relocated the garage light and 3 way switch (outdoor lights) across the wall to the side door. I used EMT
Yes the sub panel neutral and grounds should not be bonded (or shared), However, the 60 amp sub panel on the 100 amp main panel is perfectly safe - it's just not probably a smart configuration though. I've seen a lot worse than this.
Point well taken, what concerns me is the oversized breaker 60A in the main panel and undersized feeder to the sub panel, those hots can't be larger than 8 gauge.
@@TheTheo58 should be #2 or #3 just fixed a sub panel like this. Guy had #6 from a 60 amp breaker to a 100 amp in sub panel and to top it off he ran the wires through a Smurf pipe under ground.
My main/ meter goes into the detached garage (garage built before house) garage feeds the house. I had a sparky come over because the sub panel in the house has this same neutral/ground bonding. He said since the house was constructed in 1982, that was code back then thus it is ok. The sub panel in the house has 2 ground rods outside 8 feet apart. He said that was code as well. Is he correct or should I have it corrected?
He may be correct in that it met code back in 1982, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't also get it corrected. If you have bonded neutral and ground in your subpanel and in the main panel, then any hot to ground fault will result in the circuit being completed through neutral and ground. Having more than one path back to the main panel can result in equipment damage and more. Check out the bonding videos on the Electrician U channel for a much better explanation.
Got a question for ya. If I have a circuit breaker box and my neutral and ground are on the same bus bar. The box is mounted on a steel frame and running electrical or electronics. Can that cause interference right at the termination point. I have a drop in amps when energy is being used causing alarms then they go away when the machine recovers. Thanks.
@SumOfIt The other problem I would like to mention is by connecting the Earth (Ground) and Neutral wires together at more than one place any potential Fault current will divide between the Earth (Ground) and Neutral wires and there may not be enough Fault current to trip the Circuit Breaker.
I dont have a subpanel but my main panel has all the neutrals and grounds on the same bar. I asked my friend who is a licensed electrician that only does corporate jobs if the wiring is ok and he said its fine. Is this only an issue with a subpanel? Im new to all of this, I work on car electrical for a living, learning about home electrical atm.
My experience is that a separate bar dedicated to the ground is a good idea, but it is safe to have neutral and ground on the same bar, BUT not under the same lug (which you can see in the video).
The reason why you don't bond neutral and ground on subpanels is because during a fault, there are now two paths instead of one. Also, due to negligible differences in resistance between wires, the ground between the main panel and subpanel will constantly carry current, depending on how much load is on the subpanel. The ground is meant to not carry any current during normal operation.
Yeah I wouldn't lose any sleep over that if I lived there. On the other hand it wouldn't be that hard to fix it right and make everybody happy. One less thing to worry about if you want to sell the place or need an insurance inspection!
This is not good practice as the Earth (Ground) wires should be separate from the Neutral wires. The Earth (Ground) wires should be terminated into their own dedicated Earth Bus (Ground Bus) . The only link between them should be a Wire link (Often a Screw in the US) between the Earth Bus (Ground Bus) and the Neutral Bus at the Main panel. If the Earth (Ground) and Neutral wires are not kept separated and connected at more than one point say at another Sub panel for example than the Circuit breakers may not trip and you also run the risk of someone getting an Electric Shock.
Perfectly normal in a main panel, not okay in a sub panel. Neutral and grounds are bonded in the main panel anyway, separating them in the main panel would serve no purpose.
@@Nick-id7qb While it is safe to have the Earth (Ground) and the Neutral wires on the same bus bar in the Main Panel it is not good practice. The reason to keep them separated is for fault finding and to eliminate any possible parallel paths (more than one connection) between the Earth (Ground) and the Neutral. If there is a parallel path between these two wires any potential fault current may not trip the circuit breaker as the fault current will be divided between the two wires.
@@alilapointe9785. You have been given some bad comments. It is absolutely safe, normal, and meets NEC to have neutrals and “Equipment” grounds on the same bar in and only in the main electrical panel. The first one after the electrical meter. These grounds are NOT earth grounds. They have nothing to do with connection to earth. If fault current comes back on equipment grounds, the current then goes via neutral out to utility transformer, not to earth.
This house just needs a service upgrade, a single 200 amp 40 circuit main panel. 100 amps is adequate if the stove, heat, hot water, and dryer are gas even with central A/C. This is a fire waiting to happen with all the branch circuits stuffed into one opening.
Those look like some Challenger breakers in there too, not as bad as Zinsco or Federal Pacific breakers but the place would still burn before they would trip.
I’m glad you noticed the growing and neutral situation I feel a lot of inspectors miss that. The 60 off 100 is allowable by code most people try and do 100 off 100 the location near the plumbing is ok not ideal but doesn’t break any codes.
@@kmg-vn5zj Why only Chicago and not the entire country, especially New York? I'm in the southern part of Illinois, yet we're allowed to have Romex all over the place in a residence.
@@kmg-vn5zj I believe all commercial work is done in conduit here in Illinois. However, my non-commercial home literally sits in the middle of the city, which is the third largest in Illinois. I know my home was properly wired because it was owned by a guy who was a long time electrician for our city government. Not only is it all wired in Romex, but he did all the wiring when the house was built, plus it passed inspection when I bought it. As far as Chicago code for residential, I think were looking at a very strong influence by the electrical union rather than a concern with fire. When I drive through Cook county, the housing subdivisions look just like they do where I live, yet in Cook county all residential homes must have conduit throughout to meet code.
Sometimes depending on the year everything was installed because ground and your neutral are both on the same bus bar, I've only had one location where the ground and the neutral are isolated but in theory it's still the same tie point
Chelsi Gearty I believe in sub panels the grounds and the neutral have to be on different bus bars. Then on the main panels they can be on the same thing
On a sub panel the neutral has be isolated from the ground (and the metal panel housing, which is grounded) on a separate insulated bus bar, the tie-in bar also needs to be removed if present. Typically any panel meant to be used as a sub-panel will have an insulated busbar installed already. Why? Well let me backup a bit, the neutral wire is the groundED conductor, it carries the circuit current, and the "ground/earth/bare wire" is groundING conductor, it carries fault current only. They both serve different functions and should only be connected at the start/end of the circuit. Now, let's say you didn't isolate your neutral and grounds in the sub panel, and there's a neutral fault. Now the circuit currents path of least resistance back to the main panel (and out to the transformer) is via the bare copper ground. This means that any metal the ground wire comes into contact with is now "hot" and carrying live voltage, as an example my metal computer case would have circuit current running through it (as if it were a live wire carrying 120v), damage to equipment, shocks (or worse - electrocution) are just some of the bad stuff that can happen. It's an extremely dangerous situation to have. Hope that answers your question, there's lots of interesting articles (just hit up google) about stray voltage/differences between ground and neutral (grounding and grounded conductors) and origins of the 3 wire system if you're interested in diving deeper down that rabbit hole.
@@edwardgoodsmith1069 Thank you. You answered the question I came to the comment section to find. I'm currently installing a sub panel, and noticed grounds and neutrals in the main panel were bonded on the same bar. I though I was going to have to reeire my entire main panel because of it.
Edward Goodsmith Glad I saw this. My shop has what I consider a sub panel. The grounds and neutrals are on the same bus bar. There no other metallic connection between my house panel and the shop other than the underground wires connecting the sub panel. Are you saying I should install another bus bar in the sub panel? It already has a grounding rod outside the shop. I could never quite understand why the grounds AND neutrals were on the same bus bar in the main panel.
Fail. Fail, tell the home owner to relocate the panel. It doesn't pass, many NEC code volitions. Best to relocate and not move the basement sump pump system.
@@CupidFromKentucky I have an old house where all the neutrals are bussed back to one bar (grounds are separate) ... The "old way of doing it" has a fundamental flaw of only having a circuit breaker on the "hot side", and not the "return side"... By tying all the neutrals back to one bus, if there is a short to ground between any neutral in the building, or a hot to neutral short, then the whole system has a leak to the neutral bus. AFCI to the rescue... now you can terminate each homerun's hot and neutral to one switching breaker, thus eliminating the "all neutrals shorted together" problem of the original design. At the very least, the old school design should have incorporated a double throw switch, that would have shut off the neutral sympathetically when the hot got tripped... (rather than just bus the entire building's neutrals back to one bar)... lol
Having a Dual Throw breaker with a sympathetic throw would also allow you to eliminate any homerun from the system with a switch... Whereas all neutrals attached to one bar cannot be easily troubleshot compared to flipping a switch... (you'd have to remove the neutral and test it off the bus)
First the neutral and grounds are the least of the problems. I believe in most places in the US it's OK to share both bars as long as the sub panel is located in the same dwelling. Now those individual wires shoved through the 2" hole should all be in separate 3/8 knockouts.
Lol thats the ugliest work ive seen for new work. They have 15 romex wires in a connector 😄 Looks like joey bagodonuts the carpenter and Tommy pastrami plumber played electrician from a this old house book
Why would you say the 60 amp sub panel is dangerous? There is a 8 ga solid copper wire grounded to the water line by the sump pump Yes there is grounds and neutrals bonded together because the sub panel is apparently bonded to the main panel, and it has only one neutral busbar not two, I could not see the main panel clearly because you were focusing on the 60 amp sub panel. So I am not commenting on on the main panel, but I will say the 60 amp sub panel is safe, sloppy, but safe. Guess whomever set this up used copper service wire instead of aluminum, nice to use copper these days! Let us know when you get your Electrician license before you start commenting on anything electrical! Later!
Why ?? Are you saying because you pay your union dues, you are somehow a better electrician than me (who is non-union) ??? I've seen plenty of hack work by union electricians doing "side work" in a residence. Stick to bending pipe.
Think of the subpanel is an extension of a circuit (i.e. outlet box or junction box). You would not connect a neutral to a ground at an outlet plug or junction box. A subpanel is just a set of circuits with fuses off a high amperage feed, splitting the high amperage feed into lower amperage feeds. Another way to think of a subpanel is that it is a junction box and putting fuses on each outgoing line. A breaker is just a resettable fuse. The neutral and ground are only bonded (connected) at the first disconnect location downstream of the transformer which is typically the main breaker but could be disconnect without a breaker. The reason the ground is bonded to the neutral at first disconnect downstream of transformer is to give the current/amps/electrons a path back to source via the ground wire and ground rod through the earth soil in case there is a break in the neutral. You don't feel the voltage or current flowing through earth ground wire because it is very small but it can be measured. The utility company also grounds there side and has a neutral on a single phase line. Current/electrons always have to go back to source otherwise nothing would turn on. The voltage is the push or pressure on the electrons, like water pressure in a pipe. It is a misnomer that current only follows path of least resistance. Current follows all paths but is divided proportionally to resistance according to ohm's law. Therefore the super majority of current flows over the large low resistance wire verses through the earth. Now to the reason the ground wire which is the equipment grounding conductor is not bonded after the first service disconnect location is because there should not be any current flowing on the ground wire within the building. The ground wire can be thought of as for emergency use only current path in case a hot wire contacts the metal case. Another reason the ground is not bonded to the neutral downstream of service disconnect is in case of a break of the neutral and then all the current would flow back using the ground wire which is typically not insulated. That would be a fire risk and shock risk if the ground wire constantly had current flowing through it. The ground wire is an emergency path. It is also used to electrically bond things so there is not a voltage difference between conductive items. Electrical bonding is very important around pools and induced voltage locations such as power substations. There are many ways one can get hurt by electricity if one doesn't understand what it can do and where it can go. Hope this helps.
Thank you for the explanation very thorough simple and helpful 👍🏻
The ground rod is NOT a "path back to the source" ! It's sole purpose is to give a lightning strike a path to ground. It has nothing to do with being a suitable electrical ground.
@@mattywho8485 Just being argumentative... but "it's sole purpose" is lightening strikes? No electrician but why is it then "code" that outlets/receptcles are grounded? In the old days... grounds and neutrals were all attached to one bar... The service panel only had one "bar" from the manufacturer...
What a great and easy to understand explanation. Thank you for the education.
@@mattywho8485 Wrong a direct lighting strike would vaporizer any wiring in its path.
All I can say is WOW!!!
I bought a house with wiring so old it still had knob and tube and a pair of 60A fuse panels, one fed from the other (they used to be on their own meters, but that was removed along the way). The sub had all the neutrals and grounds tied, likely because it was done so long ago no one cared or even knew. And there's no place to do it anyway. As a temporary measure, I bought an isolated neutral bar, put it in, and did the necessary cleanup work.
I didn't think they even ran grounds back in knob and tube days. All that I came across didn't have grounds. They grounded all the neutral returns, and even ran bare wires as the return neutrals because they HAD to go to ground to complete the circuit.
@@tommywatterson5276 You are right. My story was incomplete. The knob and tube was in the attic and down the walls. The rest had been converted over to romex long ago, some of that old enough to not have a ground either.
The entire electrical system gets a big "F" Romex cable is not supposed to be used in exposed installations, dangerous conditions with the drain pipe near the panel, and the sump pump pit. A disaster waiting to happen. Probably overloading the main panel with the 60 amp sub panel being only 100 amp, those two hot wires in the sub panel don't appear to be 6 or 4 gauge. Then all the romex branch circuits runs shoved into that 2 inch NMC connector! Whole panel ought to be torn out, and start over!
Actually, Romex is allowed to be used in exposed installations. It is exposed in nearly EVERY installation.
@@ryanwoods4691 From what I recall about Romex many years ago if it was installed where it might be subject to possible damage, mechanical protection was required. Like running along the floor joists, I know the common practice is boring holes. My parents house (build in 1946) had sheathed cable but it was routed in the garage above the door header so it was protected. Same with the lights in the basement. When I relocated the garage light and 3 way switch (outdoor lights) across the wall to the side door. I used EMT
Life Hack: Do it right the first time, and you will automatically be at least 2x more efficient than having to do it two or more times... lol.
Only bond was in the main ,anything after that is asking for trouble .whoever did that work is not an electrician
I didn't see a single staple. Everything is just dangling. Incredibly scabby.
Yes the sub panel neutral and grounds should not be bonded (or shared), However, the 60 amp sub panel on the 100 amp main panel is perfectly safe - it's just not probably a smart configuration though. I've seen a lot worse than this.
Point well taken, what concerns me is the oversized breaker 60A in the main panel and undersized feeder to the sub panel, those hots can't be larger than 8 gauge.
@@TheTheo58 should be #2 or #3 just fixed a sub panel like this. Guy had #6 from a 60 amp breaker to a 100 amp in sub panel and to top it off he ran the wires through a Smurf pipe under ground.
Incredible video: that panel who ever wired it violated the NEC
Violated? He raped the NEC.
Nice installation
My main/ meter goes into the detached garage (garage built before house) garage feeds the house.
I had a sparky come over because the sub panel in the house has this same neutral/ground bonding.
He said since the house was constructed in 1982, that was code back then thus it is ok.
The sub panel in the house has 2 ground rods outside 8 feet apart. He said that was code as well.
Is he correct or should I have it corrected?
He may be correct in that it met code back in 1982, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't also get it corrected. If you have bonded neutral and ground in your subpanel and in the main panel, then any hot to ground fault will result in the circuit being completed through neutral and ground. Having more than one path back to the main panel can result in equipment damage and more.
Check out the bonding videos on the Electrician U channel for a much better explanation.
They used to sell cars without seatbelts. Would you buy one without today?
Got a question for ya.
If I have a circuit breaker box and my neutral and ground are on the same bus bar. The box is mounted on a steel frame and running electrical or electronics. Can that cause interference right at the termination point. I have a drop in amps when energy is being used causing alarms then they go away when the machine recovers.
Thanks.
The only place the neutral and ground can be together is the main panel.
@SumOfIt The other problem I would like to mention is by connecting the Earth (Ground) and Neutral wires together at more than one place any potential Fault current will divide between the Earth (Ground) and Neutral wires and there may not be enough Fault current to trip the Circuit Breaker.
I dont have a subpanel but my main panel has all the neutrals and grounds on the same bar. I asked my friend who is a licensed electrician that only does corporate jobs if the wiring is ok and he said its fine. Is this only an issue with a subpanel? Im new to all of this, I work on car electrical for a living, learning about home electrical atm.
My experience is that a separate bar dedicated to the ground is a good idea, but it is safe to have neutral and ground on the same bar, BUT not under the same lug (which you can see in the video).
any panel that is fed from a main breaker panel must have neutrals and grounds separated.
The reason why you don't bond neutral and ground on subpanels is because during a fault, there are now two paths instead of one. Also, due to negligible differences in resistance between wires, the ground between the main panel and subpanel will constantly carry current, depending on how much load is on the subpanel. The ground is meant to not carry any current during normal operation.
if it is the main disconnect then is should be tied together.
If your panel has a "main shut off" or breaker.
The subpanel is so close to the main panel. So there are not much issues. If the subpanel is far away from the main, it has a bigger problem.
How is it a bigger problem? Right is right and wrong is wrong.
Yeah I wouldn't lose any sleep over that if I lived there. On the other hand it wouldn't be that hard to fix it right and make everybody happy. One less thing to worry about if you want to sell the place or need an insurance inspection!
I recently installed a new 110V outlet to the circuit breaker box for my washer the grounds and neutrals connected to the same bus bar is it safe??
This is not good practice as the Earth (Ground) wires should be separate from the Neutral wires. The Earth (Ground) wires should be terminated into their own dedicated Earth Bus (Ground Bus) . The only link between them should be a Wire link (Often a Screw in the US) between the Earth Bus (Ground Bus) and the Neutral Bus at the Main panel. If the Earth (Ground) and Neutral wires are not kept separated and connected at more than one point say at another Sub panel for example than the Circuit breakers may not trip and you also run the risk of someone getting an Electric Shock.
Perfectly normal in a main panel, not okay in a sub panel. Neutral and grounds are bonded in the main panel anyway, separating them in the main panel would serve no purpose.
@@Nick-id7qb While it is safe to have the Earth (Ground) and the Neutral wires on the same bus bar in the Main Panel it is not good practice. The reason to keep them separated is for fault finding and to eliminate any possible parallel paths (more than one connection) between the Earth (Ground) and the Neutral. If there is a parallel path between these two wires any potential fault current may not trip the circuit breaker as the fault current will be divided between the two wires.
@@Nick-id7qb thank you 🙏
@@alilapointe9785. You have been given some bad comments. It is absolutely safe, normal, and meets NEC to have neutrals and “Equipment” grounds on the same bar in and only in the main electrical panel. The first one after the electrical meter. These grounds are NOT earth grounds. They have nothing to do with connection to earth. If fault current comes back on equipment grounds, the current then goes via neutral out to utility transformer, not to earth.
So i have a question, since that's a sub panel why doesn't it have separate bus bars, one for grounds and one for neutral, so how do you fix this?
im betting that it could be a main panel box or a sub.
Many panels don't include the ground bar, sold separately for $8-15 depending on size.
This house just needs a service upgrade, a single 200 amp 40 circuit main panel. 100 amps is adequate if the stove, heat, hot water, and dryer are gas even with central A/C. This is a fire waiting to happen with all the branch circuits stuffed into one opening.
Those look like some Challenger breakers in there too, not as bad as Zinsco or Federal Pacific breakers but the place would still burn before they would trip.
general switch
I thought sub panels are supposed to have separate. Grounds and neutrals.
so you could hav current on the green wire not during a short .???
Wow
lol, but does it work?
Volume?
The guy was being discreet.
I’m glad you noticed the growing and neutral situation I feel a lot of inspectors miss that. The 60 off 100 is allowable by code most people try and do 100 off 100 the location near the plumbing is ok not ideal but doesn’t break any codes.
Yes it does. Working space/Clearance violation.
This makes me feel a little bit better knowing there are people that claim to be electricians and do this kind of shit 😂😭
Looks like one of those bootleg basement apartments
Ive seen a lot worse! at least theres some room and the sub is wired incorrectly But it does have rounds ( is grounded ) wrong but ...
Just once I’d like to see one of these videos use conduit, not romex
Who wires a residence in conduit ?
In the Chicago land area, all electrical work is in conduit. Does not matter if it’s a home or industrial.
@@kmg-vn5zj Why only Chicago and not the entire country, especially New York? I'm in the southern part of Illinois, yet we're allowed to have Romex all over the place in a residence.
@@illiniwood I believe in most of the major cities all electric work is in conduit, I’m guessing it has to do with fire?
@@kmg-vn5zj I believe all commercial work is done in conduit here in Illinois. However, my non-commercial home literally sits in the middle of the city, which is the third largest in Illinois. I know my home was properly wired because it was owned by a guy who was a long time electrician for our city government. Not only is it all wired in Romex, but he did all the wiring when the house was built, plus it passed inspection when I bought it. As far as Chicago code for residential, I think were looking at a very strong influence by the electrical union rather than a concern with fire. When I drive through Cook county, the housing subdivisions look just like they do where I live, yet in Cook county all residential homes must have conduit throughout to meet code.
What needs to be done is to have a qualified person simply install a 200 amp panel and remove all those violations in the process.
Neutral and ground are two different circuits
Sometimes depending on the year everything was installed because ground and your neutral are both on the same bus bar, I've only had one location where the ground and the neutral are isolated but in theory it's still the same tie point
Neutral and Ground meet up at the main panel .... and at the main panel ONLY
Well you said it yourself Rhode island where everyone knows everything
Yeah, that sub panel is a bit of a grenade! Needs to be addressed no doubt!
why is it wrong to attach ground wires to the neutral bar?
Chelsi Gearty I believe in sub panels the grounds and the neutral have to be on different bus bars. Then on the main panels they can be on the same thing
On a sub panel the neutral has be isolated from the ground (and the metal panel housing, which is grounded) on a separate insulated bus bar, the tie-in bar also needs to be removed if present. Typically any panel meant to be used as a sub-panel will have an insulated busbar installed already. Why? Well let me backup a bit, the neutral wire is the groundED conductor, it carries the circuit current, and the "ground/earth/bare wire" is groundING conductor, it carries fault current only. They both serve different functions and should only be connected at the start/end of the circuit. Now, let's say you didn't isolate your neutral and grounds in the sub panel, and there's a neutral fault. Now the circuit currents path of least resistance back to the main panel (and out to the transformer) is via the bare copper ground. This means that any metal the ground wire comes into contact with is now "hot" and carrying live voltage, as an example my metal computer case would have circuit current running through it (as if it were a live wire carrying 120v), damage to equipment, shocks (or worse - electrocution) are just some of the bad stuff that can happen. It's an extremely dangerous situation to have.
Hope that answers your question, there's lots of interesting articles (just hit up google) about stray voltage/differences between ground and neutral (grounding and grounded conductors) and origins of the 3 wire system if you're interested in diving deeper down that rabbit hole.
@@edwardgoodsmith1069 Thank you. You answered the question I came to the comment section to find. I'm currently installing a sub panel, and noticed grounds and neutrals in the main panel were bonded on the same bar. I though I was going to have to reeire my entire main panel because of it.
Edward Goodsmith Glad I saw this.
My shop has what I consider a sub panel. The grounds and neutrals are on the same bus bar. There no other metallic connection between my house panel and the shop other than the underground wires connecting the sub panel.
Are you saying I should install another bus bar in the sub panel? It already has a grounding rod outside the shop.
I could never quite understand why the grounds AND neutrals were on the same bus bar in the main panel.
@@edwardgoodsmith1069 our old house would shock me when i stood on our metal heating vent and touched our tv
Fail. Fail, tell the home owner to relocate the panel. It doesn't pass, many NEC code volitions. Best to relocate and not move the basement sump pump system.
Perfect. An accident waiting to happen. ⚡⚡⚡⚡
Tell them to upgrade to a 200 amp.
wouldnt gfci breakers and outlets provide protection from this "dangerous situation"?
The biggest situation is that now current is is going through ground as well as neutrals.
No cleaning it with gas and drying it with a road flare will protect from this shituation.
@@CupidFromKentucky I have an old house where all the neutrals are bussed back to one bar (grounds are separate) ... The "old way of doing it" has a fundamental flaw of only having a circuit breaker on the "hot side", and not the "return side"... By tying all the neutrals back to one bus, if there is a short to ground between any neutral in the building, or a hot to neutral short, then the whole system has a leak to the neutral bus. AFCI to the rescue... now you can terminate each homerun's hot and neutral to one switching breaker, thus eliminating the "all neutrals shorted together" problem of the original design. At the very least, the old school design should have incorporated a double throw switch, that would have shut off the neutral sympathetically when the hot got tripped... (rather than just bus the entire building's neutrals back to one bar)... lol
Having a Dual Throw breaker with a sympathetic throw would also allow you to eliminate any homerun from the system with a switch... Whereas all neutrals attached to one bar cannot be easily troubleshot compared to flipping a switch... (you'd have to remove the neutral and test it off the bus)
@@abdulelkhatib2674 throwing water on the sub panel might work better
⚡🤪
First the neutral and grounds are the least of the problems. I believe in most places in the US it's OK to share both bars as long as the sub panel is located in the same dwelling. Now those individual wires shoved through the 2" hole should all be in separate 3/8 knockouts.
The person who wired that sub panel is goofy
Sweet! Electrocution special. I know third rate handymen that do better work than this.
Heck I could do better and I'm 15
@@abdulelkhatib2674 I don't doubt it.
Fire and safety hazard
There is so much wrong there
Wow, this is horrible! The UA-cam “handyman” fuckery continues…
major hack job. no pride.
Jack leg ,a wanna be electrician , that's amateur hour at the finest .
A total disaster.
Why are you talking so low?
Poor work
Lol thats the ugliest work ive seen for new work. They have 15 romex wires in a connector 😄 Looks like joey bagodonuts the carpenter and Tommy pastrami plumber played electrician from a this old house book
Why would you say the 60 amp sub panel is dangerous? There is a 8 ga solid copper wire grounded to the water line by the sump pump Yes there is grounds and neutrals bonded together because the sub panel is apparently bonded to the main panel, and it has only one neutral busbar not two, I could not see the main panel clearly because you were focusing on the 60 amp sub panel. So I am not commenting on on the main panel, but I will say the 60 amp sub panel is safe, sloppy, but safe. Guess whomever set this up used copper service wire instead of aluminum, nice to use copper these days! Let us know when you get your Electrician license before you start commenting on anything electrical! Later!
No union electrician did this. Definitely an outside job. Proving why we need to keep the unions in.
I'm a non union bricklayer and I could do better. Anyone that's a qualified electrician should be able to do a proper job, certainly better than this.
Why ?? Are you saying because you pay your union dues, you are somehow a better electrician than me (who is non-union) ??? I've seen plenty of hack work by union electricians doing "side work" in a residence. Stick to bending pipe.
Now why would anyone stick all those wires through one connector? Lazy is just hard to overcome. Not a good idea either.