Which TTRPG has the BEST Fighter? (it's not D&D)
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
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How many versions of "Guy With Sword" can they come up with in these games? Let's take a look at where the Fighter Class has been & where it's going across all sorts of fantasy tabletop RPGS like Dungeon's & Dragons and Pathfinder!
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Feels good to be back.
Are you seriously supporting that smoke bomb?
I don't know. Feels like this should be pinned at the top.
Ya fumbled talking about 4e by bringing up WoW
The most surface level sight that no one who played says
Been playing the Alpha and love it so much
Thank you so much for bringing some sense, and not jumping on the DC20 bandwagon. The game is well designed, and fun, but it is nowhere near the revolutionary "D&D but Better" work of genius that other RPGtubers are saying it is.
Professor Dungeon Master in particular should know better.
"... or for someone back at 1974!" fuck, my sides. And my knees. And my back.
🫵 Old. 😘
@@DeficientMaster I got old very early in life okay.
Real talk, I wasnt even born for a decade after 1974, but this zoomer girl I DM for still calls me boomer and the other players just laugh. You cant win.
And my axe!
@@monkeibusiness millennials and gen x fading into obscurity because we didn't have to foresight to be called Moomers and Exhoomers
What?! Speak Up!
Gandalf is a wizard - You watched the Hobbit.
Gandalf is a sorceror - You read the Hobbit and watched LotR.
Gandalf is an Eldritch Knight - You carry the appendices and your copy of the Simarillion in case a LotR-based emergency should ever occur.
Gandalf is a barbarian - You are a menace and must be stopped by the council of Rivendell.
Gandalf is stronger than any eldritch knight but he is for sure a gish no two ways about it. Maybe Magus is closer to the truth?
@@Medul759 (Honestly, I think with his backstory and the addition of Shadowfax is more straight warlock with a celestial patron and pact of the chain but his chain is instead the ring he bears, but I wouldn't put up a fight about it)
Actually Gandalf is a celestial with innate spellcasting.
Gandalf is a Paladin. Divine power source? Check*. Aura that helps nearby allies resist things like fear or the corrupting influence of the Ring? Check. Find Steed? Check.
*yeah yeah, 5e makes their power source the oath that they don't even take until they already have spellcasting
Thematically I would argue Bard, especially as divine power in Tolkien's works *is* Song. And Poetry, and all that. The world was literally sung into creation by a grand orchestra. Gandalf was one of those, also he is meant to uplift the people of Middle Earth, enflame their spirits.
However, this is only while he is Gandalf the Grey, when he becomes Gandalf the White, he exchanges some Full Casting to become a proper soldier of Eru Iluvatar. So he becomes a paladin
Haven't watched it yet, but DUNGEON CRAWL CLASSICS for being the only game I've seen where the Fighter really is Conan + Jackie Chan + Captain Jack Sparrow thanks to their Mighty Deeds.
Just imagine the 5e Battle Master Maneuver system and remove ALL limitations. You are shield bashing, chandelier swinging, throat punching EVERY ROUND. Feats? Stamina? Conditional modifiers? Specific weapons? Don't need 'em, if you roll high enough then it works. You are a Fighter and you fight, period.
Edit: This is why I love you.
quick, I need numbers for tomorrow's daily lottery
limitations? we dont need no stinkin limitations :)
I like this idea, plus some of LaserLLama's homebrew. With martial exploits simulating crazy feats of strength, or offering options for applying conditions or AoE to certain things.
"Magic is impressive. But now Minsc leads! SWORDS FOR EVERYBODY!"
@@negie78000 Haven't heard of LaserLLama, but I'll have to look them up! I do love the idea of weapon types having one single thing special about them, just to give a tiny bit more depth without going full 3.5e feat bloat.
I swear these hands are more expressive than 90% of all my introvert friends
( including me )
Should be a hint of Italian hand gestures
The "BROAD SWOAD!!!" Edit killed me every time. Fantastic editing.
Bro sword?
What is it from?
@@gunjfur8633 It's from an ad for Hero Quest, the clip of which was used to great effect in the famous video "Why Hero Quest Is So Great."
@@gunjfur8633 It is from an old Heroquest board game commercial. And might I suggest watching the video "Why is Heroquest so great" for the full impact.
The old Hero Quest boardgame TV ad.
i love how there is "(it's not D&D)" in the title, as if that's supposed to be a surprise
Most DnD players haven't ever tried any other ttrpgs, so it would be surprising to them that other systems have actually good Fighters
Gotta get those clicks somehow.
I was literally thinking yesterday "haven't seen deficient in a while" and then today he shows up! This has done wonders for my god complex.
its my homebrew
Same
For Pathfinder 2e there are a couple more things for fighters. PF2 seems is much more martial focused. Fighters start with Expert in Martial Weapons as opposed to trained for all the other martial classes and are the only class that can reach Legendary in Martial Weapons. This translates to a permanent +2 bonus over everyone else in melee. Also, the Reactive Strike ability (Attack of Opportunity) can be gained by other martials by spending a class feat....at level 6. In PF1 fighters didn't have anything unique to them that mattered and were just a bag a feats as mentioned. Now in PF2 people have very compelling reasons to play a fighter. They are now THE S Tier class for PF2E.
Not just in melee, but yes, I was thinking the same thing.
Also give it a year when they give even more stuff for Fighter (and every other martial tbh). The Battlecry book is completely martial focused so fighter will get an even bigger boost more than likely.
PF1 fighters deserve more credit, Weapon Training and Armor Training are very good abilities that lend to the class fantasy of "I am the best at fighting." Weapon Training is especially good, because it lets you exceed the normal limit of +5 on weapons in practice.
Really hard to appreciate just how impactful +2 is in PF2E if you're not used to it. Bonuses are pretty rare and, thanks to the crit system, being more accurate makes you more deadly too.
But for me the best part about PF2E for not just fighters, but martials in general: skills are worked far more into the core of the system. Athletics is the only Strength skill and covers so much that Strength really is equal with Dexterity. Being strong matters and comes up often both defensively, and if looking for opportunities, offensively too.
The real thing that makes Fighters in Pathfinder 2e stand out isn’t their Attack of Opportunity (most other martial classes can pick that up around level 6-8, but don’t have to), it’s that fighters are just better than everyone else at fighting.
2e does proficiency a little different, in that there’s different levels of proficiency, kinda like rogues expertise in 5e. It goes trained - expert - master - legendary, with each step adding +2 to your proficiency. All classes start at trained proficiency for the weapons they can use, fighters start at expert proficiency for all weapons. And fighters are the only class who can reach legendary proficiency with weapons (kinda, gunslingers can reach legendary with guns). Plus, they can use exotic weapons without needing a feat to know how to use them.
And because of how Pathfinder 2e math works, having a +2 bonus to a roll is equal to a +20% crit chance, so fighters are absolute crit machines.
fighters' proficiency bonus just stacks really well with how limited bonuses to hit are in pf2e, and with how most parties want to have as many of those as possible. also with reach weapon aoo and Swipe you get 3 attacks at full MAP per turn with that ridiculous aforementioned bonus, cementimg reach fighter as the top damage dealer in the game in most non-white room scenarios
best build is still wrestler warpriest I'd say, or maestro/enigma bard, in terms of being able to do lots of stuff
Mister Deficient please be kind to the fighter!
I'm equally kind to all the classes...
@@DeficientMaster "Yeah pa', you really are the fairest of all!"
- Mordenkainen probably
All classes are equal but some classes are more equal than others
This man talking about feats being complex. Meanwhile I'm over here playing Shadowrun.
You poor soul, my condolences 😢
Which one? 3e, 5e or 6e?
Check out Sinless. My buddy Courtney Campbell made it (Deficient has referenced his other work twice on this very channel) and it's essentially a retro-rework of old school Shadowrun that seeks to fix the game's myriad playability issues.
Man, I could really go for some Shadowrun. That game is so rad.
Won't even roll a character without an editor app 😅
But boy can you go crazy with character builds in Shadowun!
Thief next, Thief next!
Battle Master is basically the 4E Fighter made compatible for 5E, and this is why it's so great. They give Fighter abilities that 1) are unique to the class and 2) alter the flow of the battle through fighting prowess.
Special mention for Pathfinder 2E making Fighters good at FIGHTING, by giving them the highest starting attack bonus, and maintaining it. D&D 5E should really have done the same by reintroducing Weapon Specialization as a main class feature, granting Fighter just that slight accuracy boost to cement their flavor.
so sad you didn't cover pf2e fighter, some of the most fun I've had especially with the free archetype variant rule. You can get really wacky with how you build them!
"Feats give too much options"
AND
"Wizards are my fave class"
Such dissonance is amazing
It boggles my mind... Literally.
Everything he has said about feats I have heard said about spells...
The issue is Feats actually limit options. If you are optimized to do a certain thing, ranged attack, fighting with polearm, free disengage, you are always going to favor those taking those actions over others because they will be 'more optimal'. This limits the full spectrum of creativity and, paradoxically, makes the character much easier to defeat.
The feats being too narrow is mostly "spells, but worse".
It is something that various systems tried to correct, since being a spellcaster, usually, gives the player more narrative control by sheer mechanics alone.
I feel that 4e gave a nice framework, but the "MMO feel" is a issue too common.
I don't think that he's in contradiction, since is easy to make both statements compatible. I just think the issue is less fighter-centric and more about spellcasting and balancing the fun between classes.
@benxavier3723 Isn't wizard as a class built around subclasses only benefiting certain types of spells?
@@kid14346You are absolutely correct that you can run into many of the same issues with large spell lists of verbose and mechanically complex spells.
However, you may still choose to change your spell list to use more utility spells(depending on the gm), whereas feats are, typically, not so flexible. We also assume he is talking about a DnD 5e wizard. Many 'rules-light' TTRPGs don't feature wizard subclasses like 5e and thus avoid the issue.
I think the point of Deficient Master's video is that we should try out new systems if we feel frustrated by the ones we are playing. Ultimately we should be trying to have fun and we should use whatever system supports that.
4e was super fun for our group when you went into it with the perspective that it harkens back more to the wargame style of play and the MMO style of looting/upgrades. It's a really cool mood and I even pulled more features from MMOs into it that played heavy into positioning. I loved how it separated abilities out into at-will, encounter, daily so you weren't ever having to stare and crunch numbers on your sheet to figure out what you could do, you couldn't spam your best ability, and I also loved healing surges (you can only be healed so many times) as an idea.
The PF2 Fighter's biggest benefit isn't any of the features listed in this video, but their improved proficiency with weapons! At any given level a Fighter has an additional +2 to attack rolls beyond what any other martial class gets (except Gunslingers, but that's a class for another day :p). While +10% chance to hit doesn't sound like much, in PF2 it's actually *huge* because an attack crits if the total on your attack roll is at least 10 points higher than the target's AC. Coupled with their Reactive Strike which can help them get an extra attack against careless enemies and their class feats that allow them to make special attacks with unique hit and crit effects, Fighters are the absolute GOATS of crits, reliable damage output, and weapon-based combat in PF2.
Felt my balls clench when you "ripped" out that page from that beautiful edition of DCC. Great video as always
Yeah. I almost cried out. I have that edition. The first black and foil one, signed by Goodman and the artist.
PF1e could very easily reduce down to "D&D 3.5e, but for people who didn't want to play 4e," however PF2e did break that mold. I do like how rather than feat trees like in D&D 3.5 and PF1e, it opts for feat buckets, where, with the exception of General feats, they're locked behind Class or Skill progression. I won't deny that PF2e is still really complicated, but this was a good evolution for feats in TTRPGs, and does help with the bloat present in D&D 3.5 and PF1e.
Great work as always, though. I'm glad to see another video from you. Even when I'm not 100% on board with you, the presentation is still amazing!
I feel like PF2e the most uncomplicated ttrpg system I have played (cue 5e, Lancer and CoC derivatives). It has lots of options but all of them are really simple especially with fighter. Besides math (that is really just add +level to 5e) you only have the feat choices. Action? 3 per turn unless you have haste. Movement? 1 action you can take. Magic? You choose a number of times you can use a choosen magic (write on paper and cross when used). Does this magic affects that being? check traits. The only time I had continous confusion was during out of combat healing which apparently you do not have.
out of combat healing is just medicine checks and focus spells galore, every 10 minutes or so. most hardcore optimizing parties will have at least one or two people with such proficiencies to fully heal in between combats @@anannoyingweeb359
I've always been calling it D&D 3.75, which is more accurate.
Pathfinder 2e is just D&D 4e, coming at a time where the playerbase is actually ready for it. I recently tried out the Beginner Box, and kept noticing how everything is very reminiscent of 4e. Shouldn't really be surprised, 4e was great.
4e is actualy fun. And what i realy like is that it's have A LOT of GM tools to help a DM inside of DMG unlike a usalles junk like a 5e DMG. 4e is bad if you love classic D&D wizzards though. 4e is just different.
BTW. 4e is not made to lure in mmo fans. IMO it's a Myth
4e just reminded grognards that WoW stole their players.
The number of people asking about homebrew opinions for things that were just part of 4e is really funny once you notice them
@@ianaldridge7136 yes. Minions and the creature "roles" was the best part of encounter building. It just works. And it was convenient.
wow i don't think i've seen someone be as confidently wrong about 4e as until now. 4e does not actually represent MMO combat whatsoever - in fact, it can arguably be considered closer to something like hero battle or MOBA types - neither of which really had gotten going back in the day, so it's difficult to imagine that that was a primary influence for 4e.
Also, 4e Fighter is ridiculously cool, fight me.
People honest to god saw Role in the phb and lost all sense and reasoning. The powers were a learned lessons from book of nine swords and lots of 3rds design problems people had with linear warriors and quadratic wizards.
@@infinitedm5396 Okay so theres 2 of you here but he rolled a 3 which means there another one of you stalkin about...
@@gojicandle8188 *Enters the comment section with a Cometfall Charge*
4e is my first foray into TTRPGs and I still love it to this day. It's sad that so many people are tainted by the opinions of the internet, bashing the strawman that they think others think it is...
@@DylanBFishkeeper tbh ive never played 4e, but funnily enough ive heard a lot of good things? Maybe i hangout with too many hipsters...
@@gojicandle8188 The ones who have played it generally do like it and advocate its strong points, especially the "newer" crowd that started off on it or only had 5e and didn't like the simplicity. The 3.5e and older crowds generally either didn't like it for being more gameified or for just being so different from the editions they loved and had a bad taste in their mouths from how it was marketed and released.
The switch to Powers for all classes, the removal of spell slots, the bonuses being modified around stacking +2 from different sources, the shift of game language to be grid-based: there were a ton of changes both big and small that many did not like. And to be fair, if you came into 4e thinking it would be like 3 or 3.5+, you probably would be disappointed. Anyways, the old-school players started trashing it and that negativity tainted the reputation with a bandwagon mentality, especially in online spaces: if you were enjoying it, you weren't a *real* D&D player. You know, typical bandwagon mentality stuff.
So you ended up with it being the "cool/funny" thing to trash on 4e for the longest time, and people would listen to the internet and bash it simply because if everyone was clowning on it, it must be bad. I actually had a new player that refused to touch 4e despite all of the table, who had played it before, telling him it was perfect system for the game he wanted to play. He cited a bunch of threads and forums about how trash it was and so we ran 5e...but I snuck a ton of 4e mechanics into it as "homebrew," and those ended up being the parts of the game he enjoyed the most.
Here in Brazil we have an Rpg called "Tormenta". The warrior class begin with a simple hability to add +4 to an atack or damage roll, later he gains one hability that halfs the damage he takes but cost mana and after that he gains extra atack once. All other habilits comes from power like feats he chooses, therer are things like focus on one tipe of weapons or oportunity atacks, but the best one you can create a especial manouver and also have lots of them.
You could atack and generate magic or elemental atacks, use magic with bonus action, hit all enemies will can see, etc. In the 20 level, when you hit this ability or the base bonus to atck or damage the classe gave you, you ll regain half mana you spend. Is super simple but extremely fun.
Also also, since i finished 2 campaings till the 20 level in this game and have none of the problems people talk in 4E the character becomes strong but dont brake the game
I was just about to write how it is in Tormenta20, good to see that i'm not the single brazillian watching my man Deficient. I like the Personal Strike from the warrior/fighter, i'ts such a cool mechanic, the way you can customize you can make anything you want, you can be a anime character or just stick to a sober swordsman.
Resident 4e fan (punching bag) here! If you like big tactical combat (a big if), the 4e fighter is the most fun! That’s what the powers succeed at doing, giving you interesting and cool options. And those fighter features work amazingly in practice, in no other edition can the fighter truly control the battlefield around them.
4e is also not based on MMOs nor does it feel much like one to play! I hope this helps!
Everyone loves to hate on 4e, but it's the only version I bothered playing very much (or ran at all) since the original booklets back in the 70s. It was a big hit in my home group...but most of us are old wargamers, so big tactical combat was a natural fit.
@qarsiseer, what do you think of the criticism that all the 4e classes play the same?
@@Delmworks The build schematics are similar (each class gains stuff at the same rate), but the classes themselves aren't. You could make the argument that similar roles play similarly, and there's some validity to that, but it's not like every class is a variation of the Fighter.
@@Delmworks It’s like me saying the Bard and the Cleric in 5e play the same because they both cast spells. Even if they are both support classes they play very different due to their different spells and features. I’d even argue this is truer for 4e than other editions: a party with a bard feels very different than a party with a cleric.
But Deficient!!! Without my +2 during rainy Tuesdays how will the other players know I’m a fighter and not just a barbarian with some therapy?
Me, who finally kicked my Human Fighter addiction: “Maybe… maybe just one more?”
Wong Fe, I see you have master Serpent Style (Cobra)...but can you defeat my Eagle Claw!? (Tiger stance) :)
so many other TTRPGs missing here, the title should rather be "Which D&D adjacent TTRPG..."
Anytime people get weird about the amount of feats that are in other systems. I point out that there are a ton of feats in 5e... you just don't get to choose what they are individually. They're called class, subclass, and race/subrace features... instead of picking the pieces you want you pick the pre-made combo.
Choosing between 8 options is way more elegant and less overwhelming than choosing between 100 options.
@@blahthebiste7924 but it's also a lot more restrictive than being able to choose from specific, thematic feats every level or two (yes i am a pf2 glazer).
@@swaggyseal I agree with that
I think the problem with 5e feats is that half of them feel like stuff you should be able to do already. Like Crusher or Shield Master, which seem to be things a martial class should be able to do, but can't for some reason. Well, that and it replacing ASI, which hurts some classes so much more than others.
My bigger problem with feats is that a feat that says I can now disarm implies that I (and other players) can't disarm without the feat, which flips the table on combat creativity, constantly checking if something already has a rule.
not really (though most systems aren't the best at stating this) often such actions are universal and feats allow add upon it. For example"you can disarm as an action, when you attempt to disarm you must roll a dice to see if you succeed" is a base rule.
Feats would add on to this, "you can disarm as a bonus/free action" or "you can disarm someone on your attack" or " or "when you grab someone you automatically disarm them" etc. Good feats don't just introduce new abilities, they add on to pre-existing ones.
@@jcama2412 That doesn't really change the point. "Hey DM because his arm is hanging limp from Elsyr's blow, can I try to disarm his as a bonus action?"
'No sorry you don't have the feat'
The problem with feats is that they trample on rulings by adding rules that are often specialized/situational
@@valethemajor I think it should be done in systems like GURPS, where you can do generally anything from the arsenal of fighting techniques, but if you have not trained it ... Well, get ready to throw at -5 or something like that. It's pretty fun when you, as a non-fighting character, can still try to do something absolutely insane.... And if you're lucky, your office clerk flying through the window does a dropkick to that thug's jaw.
@@valethemajor I feel like that is DMs fault for not being friendly to player choice and not the systems fault.
I have always seen ttrpg be like "In a default situation you can do X, X+Y if in a Z situation. BUT remember that in case by case is the table/Dm that decide what happens because we will not write a rule about disarming a limping arm but in advantageous situation you may gain a buff!"
It never just says, "You can disarm now." It will say something like "You can now Disarm when you hit a target on an attack roll." Where as normal disarm would be like a non damaging skill check
I'm one of the 1d6 4e lovers. Above every advantage of 4e. It has the better fighter.
Yeah, 4E had plenty of problems, but its fighter was a triumph. If anything, we had a problem with the group wanting to play fighters too much. Diving into a group of enemies, using "Come And Get It" to off a few minions and mark the remaining stronger enemies felt great and never got old.
So this is where he's been for the past month. Hell yeah, worth it! (Also, it's Laserlama's alternate fighter)
This is the way. All the goodies of the battlemaster given to your base fighter.
This is the way. Laserllama is top tier design especially with how fantastical and mythical the high level exploits found both in base as well expanded Alternate Fighter.
The only thing that comes close to this is the Vagabond by Mage Hand Press, mainly because they cap at 8d12 and regain their Battle Dice (Exploit/Superiority Die) on a Short or Long rest, OR when Initiative is Rolled and some of their moves and subclasses can use 1 to multiple dice.
Honestly leave it to 3rd Party People figuring out both very well balanced but also fun ways to play a martial character at high level where you are supposed to feel mythical and legendary heroes.
Slight correction on the DC20 fighter. It is the only martial that gets a technique at level one, not talent. Granted, it is still in Alpha at the time this video was released and things are subject to change.
Dad came home with the milk and a ... longsword?
BROAD SWOAD
As someone whose main game is PF2e: Fighters have the best accuracy of any class, so they hit and crit more often and are the best at consistent single target damage in the game. Also, PF1e was based on D&D 3.5e, PF2e is VERY different. The 3 actions and the +10/-10 degrees of success makes it pretty different from any other d20 system I've played, but I'd most likely compare it to 4e if anything... I love PF2e for being able to make all kinds of out there character concepts that don't suffer mechanically, but of course it won't be for everyone and that's fine. 😊
That's the thing about Pathfinder 2: You can build a character with free reign and not suffer for it. The only "trap" options that exist are for math nerds who whine about being "optimal."
PF2e is more based on D&D 4e anyway. That is not to say anything bad about it, 4e is rad.
@@sipofsunscorchedsarsaparil6052 I regret not being around to play 4e: Nentir Vale sounds like a great setting so I might lift that.
Worth mentioning the PF2E borrows as much from 4e as 3e. What I've found in that system what really saves the fighter and other STR based martials from being shoehorned is just how well skills are worked into the game system. So much you can do with just Athletics beyond just swinging a weapon.
PF2E Fighter is the GOAT. They specialize in critical hits which have special effects depending on choices you make in character options or equipment. They are simple to play but feel very different from all other martials in the system. Also you are hardly boring when you crit as much as a foghter does.
The presence of "core" skill actions in combat in the system makes any class inherently more versatile and with a larger variety of tools compared to 5E
Feat bloat is actually something I tried to address through homebrew. The rule in question was automatically unlocking the Improved/Greater versions once prerequisites were met (including style feats, making the Master of Many Styles monk archetype in PF way more versatile), and dividing special combat actions like disarm or trip into a group. For example, instead of taking Improved Disarm, Dirty Trick, and Trip separately, there'd be Maneuver Focus where you picked three, getting a +2 bonus to performing them as well as no longer provoking an AoO.
Babe wake up, new Deficient Master vid just dropped
Shout out to the Brawler in Pathfinder 1E. When I was first learning about what a Brawler was, the first thing I read about it was "Somebody noticed that the Fighter makes a better monk than the Monk does. So Paizo designed the Brawler to be the best of both worlds".
Yeah my buddy made Bane in a Wrath of the Righteous game by doin that alternate multiclass where you replace some bits of one with the other. Got the strength mutagen from the alchemist. Dude hit like a truck.
5:55 So a little clarification on how Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge interact, cause they're both really simple in function but also deeply complex in how they interact.
The biggest thing to note is that unlike 5e, 4e classifies Opportunity Attacks as their own Action type completely separate from Reactions (or "Immediate Actions/Interrupts, as 4e calls them): during every *turn* you can make an Opportunity Attack if you can trigger it. This is not a Fighter-specific rule, either, and it applies to **all** combatants.
Combat Superiority for Fighters gives any Opportunity Attacks you could already make the ability to add your WIS mod to the attack roll, making you more accurate and if you do hit someone, they stop moving. Since Opportunity Attacks are classified as attacks (shocking, I know), they also trigger the Mark mechanic thanks to Combat Challenge, meaning your Opportunity Actions can absolutely lock down enemies and still punishes them if they don't target you, even if you miss.
Combat Challenge is primarily about that ability to apply Marks to anything you swing at. Did you swing at something? If yes, until you end your next turn it gets -2 on rolls unless it targets you. Simple as that.
The part that confuses most people is the last bit, but that can be boiled down to, "Once per round, you can make *a singular basic weapon attack* if a marked enemy does pretty much anything but attack you." This can be anything: shifting, casting a spell, grappling an ally, itching its nose, or even making an Opportunity Attack on someone else's turn!
Combat Challenge is not an Opportunity Attack (so unfortunately doesn't get Combat Superiority bonuses), but is specifically classified as an Immediate Interrupt action. Immediate Actions are the equivalent of 5e's Reactions, and these are limited to 1 per round. Fun fact, though: since they are separate action types, you can actually use both an OA and CC attack on an enemy's turn if you really want to unload on one unlucky soul.
So put it all together and you have four simple perks: a balanced Sentinel Feat, a WIS mod bonus to-hit with OA's, the ability to apply a conditional debuff on all attacks, and a single extra attack per round.
Pathfinder 2e fighter gives you the best chance to hit and crit out of all the classes. Also, there are plenty of feats that will work with any weapon, which means that a "John Wick" character is very possible. I've played one before and it's very fun.
6:29 "Trip an opponent, let an ally move on your turn, cleave damage into an adjacent enemy" tripping attack battle master maneuver, maneuvering attack battle master maneuver, and an optional 5e rule
And you can do that twice then need a nap lmao.
This feels like the tik tock successer/version of Matt Coleviles FIghters through the edition series from back in the day.
The patting the logo at 4:50 had me in tears X'D The DCC warrior does sound interesting! I love my martial classes and especially the fighter battlemaster. It's sad tho that most of the shine of being this awesome warrior, needs to come from the narrative descriptions to show how awesome my move was :-p
I have to say, even though complex (compared to the other systems, within its game the fighter is rather simple I think), PF2E's Fighter feels GOOD
No idea how DC20's fighter felt before 0.7, but it sounded interesting to try
6:30 the reason 4e abilities read like feats is that every class in 4e is meant to be equally able to do cool stuff. In 5E the wizard has a tonne of cool spells and magical class abilities get where as the fighter gets extra attack and action surges which can only really be used for an additional extra attack. The powers are meant to replace normal attacks so that every turn you have something cool you can do instead of 5 e where the vast majority of turns you just make a regular attack and 50% of the time you miss and nothing happens. Think of it as being like a battle master but with more intricate abilities you can use more often.
Also 4e wasn't designed to be like an MMO, what happened was in an interview one of the designers said that they had multiple inspirations including other TTRPG's and even video games like world of warcraft and all the 4e haters rook that to mean 4e is a warcraft clone.
4E does have a problem with players using all their best abilities and then going around with their at will abilities until they win, sort of like how in 5E casters do all the cool stuff in the first 25% of the battle where the steaks are the lowest, and then they just use their level 1 spells and cantrips for the rest of the fight.
4e is what got me into roleplaying games. It was a pretty good transition from wargaming and videogames.
4th edition fighters were best *because* fighters actually got interesting abilities on their turn(even if feats across almost every version are, as you correctly say, doo doo poo doo)
You’re one of the most efficient and creative educators in the dnd field in this platform. I’d love to work with you on something some time.
I think the issue of "Fighter is boring" stems from High Fantasy role-play. As soon as you removed the High, and possibly even add Low, the Fighter becomes a much more interesting class when it's not competing with Wizards that are pocket tactical nukes, Bards that are sleeping with every dragon and getting their hoards as part of alimony payments, or Clerics that have more "subclasses" than any Fighter had feats.
Fighters also tend to shine in dungeon crawls, compared to epic adventures that require saving the world. Of course, a guy swinging a Broadsword is going to be boring when you have to face an army of Demons being sent forth upon the material plane by an evil God. Yet, take a step back and reduce the scope to, let's say clearing out a Minotaur's labyrinth that has been trapping nearby villagers and all of a sudden a guy swinging a sword is perfect!
Personally, I think Fighters should be crunchier than the magic classes. Magic by itself already gives you plenty of crunch due to the options you receive. The problem is, especially 5e, when a system thinks everyone should get an equal share of crunch. So all of a sudden, again, the Fighter gets overshadowed by some weird guy that sold his soul to some sexy demon and can swing his magical Broadsword much better than the Fighter could ever hope for.
For anyone who complains about Fighters being boring, they need to go play 4E. It's a game that revolves around combat. Guess what class most revolves around combat? That's right, the Master of the Broadsword! Although, if you care about exploration or narratives you're not going to enjoy it as much since the grid, minis and all the combat abilities are what the game is actually about. It's very good for combat, but don't try to add too much of your Bard slaying in the way of monster slaying.
As for DC20, so far it just feels like someone who enjoyed 5E but wanted Pathfinder/Starfinder mechanics in their game while house ruling 5E. We're going to try out a game soon with the Alpha rules, but I'm currently not 100% on board. From the reading, I'd rather just play Pathfinder 2E, but I'm willing to be surprised.
I found 4e was easier to run the exploration and narratives since, as a DM, combat was so fleshed out it freed me up to focus more on the world and encounters the party may have. There were so many splatbooks released with extra things to fill those other 2 pillars with, which was admittedly its own problem, just not one of lacking content.
5e always made me do *so much* of the heavy lifting when doing anything homebrewed, and making encounters took way more time since I had to vet monster abilities and read through everything to figure out how they worked on the table. 4e tells me straight up some lore tidbits, labels a creature's role in case if combat happens, has an _actually appropriately calculated challenge level,_ and even includes several thematic pre-built fights by level to help.
>As soon as you removed the High, and possibly even add Low,
tbh, not even. Magic being massively overtuned was a DnD thing. Most other Fantasy not DnD Inspired puts Magic as either a Side Character thing, or subtle (at least compared to DnD)
Gandalf, Merlin, just about any Magi in the Pulp Fantasy or Sword and Sorcery media that inspired DnD; no one are these living gods/jack of all trades in there
The Problem with fighter is First: that it's not an actual archetype, at least not anymore. There's no focus, it reflects every single martial identity to the point where it has nothing to it's name beyond *do damage*; in the game where it's ultimately the job of everyone to do damage now.
And Second: They refuse to give the Epic hero design that they give to casters equally. They're still making this game as if Fightingmen reach level 10 faster then Magicmen, and get a free castle with an army. They act like they're not wanking magic super hard by making them OP compared to any other media, but then deciding it'd be too far and be a mismatch to give really any Martial something equal. An echo chamber of design Philosophy.
But, I digress. 4e really did fix up a lot that 5e left behind (to market to people who love 3.5e while pretending they made a game for everyone). Not just in giving Fighters a workable identity, but fixing up Campeign tiering.
The Seperation of Heroic (1-10), Paragon (11-20) and Epic (21-30) was a sorely missed aspect. Because they basically design Martials as Hero to Paragon characters, and Casters and Hero straight to Epic characters
Also, like DBFK said, I don't really see much issue with exploration in 4e. TotM works just as well for out of combat exploration, and unless you want to put a fight there (while using the actual combat mechanics rather then just doing it as a short Skills Challenge or Skill check) gridless locals still work fine. (There's also Rituals and Martial Practices if you want more OOCombat powers rather then just Skill Checking the action)
This channel is a representation of my brain when I am really bored and have no access to sweet sweet distractions
I started a DCC campaing a week ago, and when Iread the warrior mechanics i thought "wow, these are the best rules for a warrior i have ever read". I'm really glad it got the recognition it deserves.
You are not forced into a narrow build using feats, you are min/maxed into it. Your choice.
This reminds me so much of the version of Fighter in the Pathfinder for Savage Worlds crossover material! There they gain what was effectively the class ability of a different class entirely from base Pathfinder. Fighters got the Brawler classes 'Martial Flexibility' where so as long as they meet other requirements for it they could grant themselves the temporary usage of any combat feat, while later getting the ability to use more than one and using them multiple times. I playtested it a couple times with friends and it was my favorite, being able to adapt on the fly to any situation at hand made me feel so much more useful and I looked forward to new encounters where I could further use my abilities.
Just as I am designing martial abilities for my homebrew ttrpg as if an angel defending from above I see that Deficient has graced us with another video
You wound me with your (fair) criticism of Pathfinder’s bottomless ocean of feats, but the DCC fighter sounds really cool.
Hey I enjoyed Pathfinder 1e once upon a time!
But I'm turning old & crotchety.
Legit. It feels reasonable to build a 5e character from levels 1-20 in less than a day. I have difficulty recalling a Pathfinder 1e character that I spent less than a week putting together. Tough to justify that time sink as life responsibilities grow. 🥲
Nice to see that I’m not the only one who likes how DCC and DC20 handle the fighter. Or how both systems handle all of the other classes come to think of it
I love fighters called "Knights" in Spire the City Must Fall. Such an interesting twist on your typical fighter class.
Holy crap that DCC warrior glass sounds amazing. Unfortunately, every time I play the game we're doing the funnel.
Fun video! Glad you're back!!
Once again you’re really showing us how to think outside the box! Your videos are really creative and inspiring!
Give the deficient master all your ❤️
Actually... Race as class was a Basic D&D thing, but OD&D, which predates it didn't have it. And weapon specializations weren't invented by AD&D2e, they were already there in AD&D1e's Unearthed Arcana. Nitpicking aside, spot on analysis about the issue about feats and their issues and why DCC RPG is awesome.
In defense of OD&D-AD&D fighter, while it seems they didn't really have any cool active abilities, they did have access to the best magic weapons - which did grant them all kinds of special abilities. Old-school fighters weren't defined by feats or shit like that, but the equipment they earned.
Came here to say this! Original D&D has separate class and race, those are the 1981 Mentzer/Cook rulebooks
Soulbound doesn't really have anything quite as simple in concept as a fighter, but it's worth looking into. It makes martials very interesting.
You won me at "Breakfast Timeline"
Another amazing video, I like that you bridge the gap between old and new ttrpgs like a true ttrpg fan and don't do what most influencers do which hold "newer is better" or "older is better" and you very clearly understand all of the material your covering unlike some who have preset biases or no understanding of what they are covering.
anybody else distracted by the giant clock? just me? okay.
🎯 Key points for quick navigation:
00:00 *🎲 Introduction and Overview*
- Introduction to the video and the plan to review various fighter classes in different TTRPGs,
- Mention of going through past, present, and future TTRPG systems to find the best fighter class.
00:50 *🛡️ History of the Fighter Class in D&D*
- Overview of the fighter class in the original 1974 edition of Dungeons & Dragons,
- Evolution of the fighter class through AD&D first and second editions, including changes like weapon specialization and attack mechanics.
02:33 *📜 3rd and 3.5 Editions of D&D*
- Major overhaul of core mechanics in 3rd and 3.5 editions,
- Introduction of skills and feats, and how they influenced the customization and complexity of the fighter class.
05:04 *⚔️ 4th Edition D&D*
- Description of the 4th edition fighter as a Defender class,
- Introduction of combat challenge and combat superiority mechanics, and discussion of powers specific to 4th edition.
07:11 *🛡️ 5th Edition D&D*
- Analysis of the 5th edition fighter, balancing simplicity and complexity,
- Mention of fighting styles, second wind, extra attack, and indomitable abilities,
- Brief discussion of subclasses like Battle Master and Eldritch Knight.
08:08 *🌐 Other TTRPG Systems*
- Overview of fighter mechanics in Pathfinder 2nd Edition, Worlds Without Number, 13th Age, and DC20,
- Discussion on how different systems handle customization and unique features for fighters.
10:24 *🔍 Trends and Observations*
- Discussion on the common trends in fighter class design across different systems,
- Exploration of the specialization and niche roles fighters often end up in.
11:23 *🧠 Creativity and Simplicity*
- Reflection on the need for simpler mechanics that still allow creative gameplay for fighters,
- Mention of Dungeon Crawl Classics Warrior and the Mighty Deeds mechanic as a favorite example.
13:27 *👋 Conclusion and Call to Action*
- Final thoughts on the best fighter class in TTRPGs,
- Encouragement to check out DC20 Kickstarter and support the channel,
- Closing remarks and teaser for future content.
Made with HARPA AI
GRANDPA!!! You best respect that I walked uphill, both ways, in snow, to get those books and make sure you had a game to make videos about. Back in my day...there were no videos...we played by mail (snail mail!). You are welcome. 😛
But what does best mean? Most powerful? Most options? Most thematic? Most realistic? Best able to emulate fighters from X book/movie?
Edit: Ah, most options (during play)
Great to see you back in action, I loved the analysis! I'm not sure about fighters, but might I draw everyone's attention to the correct box location for the Stat and Modifier at 2:40? This is valuable evidence for proper form, regardless of whether you play a fighter or not.
I'll slowly back out now...
I feel like the best rulesets for a Fighter class are those that let a player recreate the trailer for Elder Scrolls Online: High Isle.
It features an armored knight holding their own against a Rogue, Barbarian and Spellcaster through skillful use of their greatsword and raw strength.
I really like the idea of a system that gives you access to a bunch of unlimited-use techniques that let the character make full use of their weapons and body.
Omg, he is back
The one thing I love about OSE is that it's so open to add ANYTHING from different games. I was thinking the same thing about Fighter getting DCCs Deeds because it just works so well mechanically
wow i suscribed today expecting a video every 3 months and i get one already. Lucky!
My main issues with DCC's fighter are potentially minor to some but for me they kinda just cause a headache and feel half-baked
1) it requires the DM to make up shit on the fly on mechanics (Honestly? a minor issue, especially for OSR fans, I'll concede on that but it could be a good point for people new to OSR)
2) The fighter is pretty much summed up as "You can use weapons and armor, also you can cast guidance on attack and damage" (It's actually worse for the first level because it's 1d3)
3) You essentially have 2 layers of potential failure (Deed die is too low or the attack misses) for something that, typically in my experience, you can already *do* in OSR type games, so unless you're specifically saying other classes CAN'T be clever with their attacks, then now you've got a feature that feels good but doesn't really add anything.
4) Unless you know your GM has a list of "how would I do this mechanic" it tells you actually 0 about what you can do to help the fight, like I can flourish all I want in other RPGs, but how much it does depends on the RPG
This on top of the fact that Mages almost always have more reliable abilities (if you want to use them, you can, if you can't, it's because of an effect imposed upon you, or because you ran out of steam)
Just so that I'm not being entirely negative: Black hack is p good, you get attacks... equal to level. You can do at level 2 what a 5e fighter can do at level 5
Id love to see you make a video about roleplaying! Especially given your background in theater
DC20 adds so, so many cool twists to pretty much every 5E mechanic. I'm optimistic the final version of the Fighter will be very satisfying to play. Like the idea of stamina points and manoeuvers
Martials in DC20 is where that game seriously shines. Combat is so engaging since off your turn you pay attention since you can react to lots of things.
Ok, DCC's warrior has me so hyped with all the creative choices you can make!
Galdalf the Gray was a Light-domain cleric!
I was waiting for that DCC book reveal the whole video! DCC's Fighter is to me the best iteration of the class I've played.
I did a redesign of martials in D&D trying to make them more interesting to play while building off their base mechanics, like rogues sneak attack or a barbarians reckless attack. For Fighter turns out there was an old D&D playtest where 5E's fighter was more or less how it is but with battle master mechanics, but it was changed to be a subclass because people complained "It's too hard to play". This had made designing homebrew so much easier for the martials because they have a resource to pull from like monk's Ki points (Use bone wizards monk plz its great) or a sorcerer's sorcery points. Basically, I boosted the amount of Superiority dice they got and the number of maneuvers they can choose from, with subclasses giving them more ways to use them like Eldritch Knight being able to cast a spell alongside a weapon attack. Its really interesting on how DCC's system is very close to what 5E fighters could of been, all I have to do now is figure out how to make the Battle master work, probably what the land druid "Tried" to be for the Druid.
The Savage Worlds Pathfinder fighter looks like a strong contender (haven't played yet). Being able to pick a trait at the start of an encounter opens up options that would normally be acquired through advances.
This is how I'm saying Broad Sword from now on. My players may kill me, but I'mma love it.
Criminally underrated, still the best DND content channel right now
The cheek aside, much love to talking about 13th age. That is my go to for fantasy gaming and enjoyed the heck outta the fogbter class!
Hey I noticed after binging all your videos you use OneNote and would love a video breakdown of your Notebook and how you use it. I'm a diehard OneNote for Dnd guy and always love to see other peoples layouts and techniques.
Good shit! Now make one of these for every class ever.
That “MIGHTY DEEDS!” Mechanic is awesome
I think you missed the main strength of the pathfinder 2e fighter, which is their accuracy. They are always better at hitting (AND THEREFORE CRITTING) things than the others.
Also, feats don't really work like in 3.5/pf1, they're more like new interesting ways to use your actions.
I was hoping you'd also mention the Dungeon World fighter. Everything you wield does the same damage, whether is a "brode-sword" or a rusty spoon.
Deficient blesses us with another video after catching another house arrest sentence
You should also check out the Warrior in MythCraft. Rather than strictly being a direct fighter, a good portion of its kit is party support, giving combat bonuses by focusing on targets and instructing other characters.
Not an edition warrior, but D&D4e was not a response to MMOs. It just happened to come out at the same time. 4e was built on the grid, most people use grids, and so they leaned into it.
Everything one likes about the 5e fighter, the 4e fighter did better and first. That said, 5e is also a different game built for vaguer play, so it has more assumptions based on that premise. So if you like ungrided play, 5e is better
I like the +2, sorry, I meant the pf2e fighter, it somehow achieves both having an identity and being the fighteriest fighter to ever fighter
Man I love all your videos, I just need more!!!
The fighter is one of my favorite classes and whether or not someone sees it as a “basic vanilla option” is a good indicator of if I should respect their opinion. You good sir, have not passed /j
Has he tried Pathfinder 2e? I get the feeling that he's assuming it's Pathfinder 1 with more stuff instead of the complete paradigm shift that it is.
The extensive 2e review is on the todo.
Gandalf was a Deva run as a DMPC using Change Shape and Innate Spellcasting to pretend to be a Wizard.
He's BACK! Missed you Deficienct Master!