I have gotten some comments about my Charter Arms statement, so I want to first pin something that is on Charter Arm's website, than then give my reiteration of saying "Charter Arms is a questionable company". Here is something from their website in the FAQ section: Can I shoot +P in my .38 revolver? "Charter .38's are among the smallest revolvers in this caliber. Yes they can handle +P but we do not recommend it for the following reasons: +P ammo requires a four-inch minimum barrel to burn the extra powder. Therefore, in a two-inch barrel the extra powder is burned after the bullet leaves the barrel creating more recoil and making it harder to come back to target. We recommend a standard velocity load and practice with round nose lead rounds which are the least expensive. When you load for protection, use a jacketed or hollow point in the same grain you practice with." I call Charter Arms "questionable", as they are giving total BS for internal/exterior ballistics information. One, a +P load does not require a 4" minimum to burn "the extra powder". The designation "+P" stands for nothing more than plus pressure, which can be gained through many ways such as seating a bullet deeper, using different powder and also but not limited to, adding extra powder. I have seen time and time again that you always gain velocity in a snub nose barrel when using a +P over a standard pressure. Two, there is no set limit of extra powder that burns after the bullet leaves the muzzle resulting in more recoil, it's based on many factors and all ammo loses some power in a snub nose barrel whether it's +P or not, and even if this were the case it would not result in making it significantly "harder" to come back on target, I mean they are acting like .38 Special+P has the same recoil as .357 Magnum in a snub nose revolver. Three, they list that you should practice with round nose lead ammo, then use jacketed hollow points for protection? Oh man, this has a lot of things going on; First off, they should mention that if you use lead ammo to practice with, that you NEED to clean the bore before you use jacketed ammo. Second, lead round nose ammo is almost always 158 gr, and they are basically saying that for defense, you should load standard pressure 158 gr JHP ammo?! Yeah, as we all know this will not expand out of a snub nose even if it was a +P load, you need at a bare minimum for a standard pressure to expand, a soft point 110 gr, or you need it to be +P if it's 125 to 130 gr, or else you will get zero expansion. Third, they are insinuating that the recoil with 158 gr LRN and 158 gr JHP would be identical, which it would not be. A jacketed round always contains more powder than a lead round, as a lead 158 gr can get the same velocity with less powder, we see this in practice and we see it in reloading manuals, therefore a LRN will have less felt recoil than a JHP bullet. So I stand by my statement that Charter Arms is questionable. If they don't even know ballistics 101 and are making firearms, this is a questionable combination. Not to mention Buffalo Bore probably has other reasons to say not to use Charter Arms. My suspicion is that Buffalo Bore made some kabooms while rating ammo in those revolvers. This is just speculation though.
I am no expert, but I do own two Charter Arms 44 snubbies. I have an older Classic "Son of Sam" style Bulldog, and I have a newer (bought in 2018) On-Duty Bulldog. I have not and would not shoot high pressure "hyper ammo" in the older gun. It’s just too weak. It looks weak, it feels weak. Back when I got it I was 22 or 23 years old and knew very little about ballistics. I just remember the guy at the gun store saying, "bigger holes mean bigger problems for the bad guy you shoot." I’m 55 now, and I’ve learned a good bit more about reloading and ballistics and the new Bulldog I have can handle some of the hyper defensive ammos, but the gun is just too light. A steady diet would break it over time I’m sure, but I’ve shot cylinders full of my reloads which are pretty stout, but no where near Buffalo Bore standards. I load a 200gr HTP with 5.2gr of Tite-group and that is good pop for that gun. So the ammo is there if I had to have it, but I mainly carry 165gr Hornady Critical Defense, and I rarely carry the gun any way. I bought it because I was intrigued by a the "New" stainless steel .44 shrouded snubby Charter Arms was selling. It was new, it was inexpensive and unfortunately in this hobby if it’s new, you have to buy it to try it. It’s been a fun gun to shoot, but by no means is it a high quality gun. That’s my opinion, and I offer it only because I have that experience with them.
Some desk jockey giving out advice on standard pressure vs +P. But there is a ongoing debate on the subject. You through shade on the quality of a Charter because of this ? One piece frame Remember. Small light weight. How's that LCP working out for you ? How many Charters you sent in for repair ? How many Taurus's ? Yet you keeping buying them. I have never sent in a Charter. And I've owned them since the 1980's. I have sent only 1 firearm in, in my life. That's a S&W MP15-22. I will never send in another S&W. That so called firearm has a problem that has been going on for 6 years. It's a safety issue they refuse to address. Hence I will never buy anther one. Same reason I'll never send in a Taurus being that I will never buy the first one. As far as the Glock bulge good job. People still argue it doesn't exist. Would I carry a Glock. Yes. But I reload and will never buy one. And yes I did reload for a 42 and no good came from it.
@@patrickbolthouse7354 Yeah, but I stand by the simple thing I said about them being questionable. Buffalo Bore says don't use this ammo in a Charter Arms, while on the box saying it's safe for ALL .44 Special and .44 Magnum revolvers. And Charter Arms themselves says not to use +P in their .38 Special revolvers, and gives odd reasons for it. I would call all this "questionable". You have to remember, I never stated Charter Arms quality, I said their company was questionable, and with the stuff they say I stand by the whole subject of warm ammo, with what they say as questionable.
@@GunSam Actually, when you state that the company is questionable, you are questioning the quality of the product and/or the integrity of the company. You are implying that Charter Arms products are unsafe.
That's the reason I consider the 44 special to be the best everyday carry round. The power of the 357 and less decibels than a 9mm. In real world situations, I'd rather not suffer hearing loss. Love your big bore comparison videos.
Lester Moore’s tombstone in Tombstone. “Here lies Lester Moore. 4 shots from a.44. No Les. No more.” The .45 was impressive. That’s what I can call a man stopper. That deformity in the.45 round at the end was worrisome. I used to wipe down the ammunition I didn’t use because of the condensation that occurs in a speed loader pouch. I made a point to rotate my ammo from day to day and go to the range and fire those off and buy new ammunition just to be safe. The .44 Special seems like a good idea for personal protection if carrying a.44 magnum revolver. The Charter Arms issue. In my opinion, Charter Arms is not a bad company for the prices of their firearms. Their Bulldog revolvers were popular back in the day (David Berkowitz , a.k.a, Son Of Sam used a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special). There are a lot of handguns that cannot use hot ammunition. So, buyer beware in that case. Do more ice tests.
That ice jug test clearly shows the power of them there bullets. I was quite surprised at how far they pushed the jugs back. Please use other calibers on the ice jugs to see how far they push the jugs. The 44 Special is underestimated for its defensive potential. Another good video. Keep them coming.
I would choose the .44 special if it was quieter 🔇. Who walks around with hearing protection with their daily CCW? But that .45ACP is absolutely impressive.
I agree with the point about 45 Plus P brass. As someone who loads 45 SUPER loads in regular acp brass I know it is plenty strong in a fully supported chamber but not in a factory Glock or GI barrel.
Thanks. It's actually easier for me than single action as rather than using technique, the hard press sort of stabilizes the shots. So truth be told it's not hard work to get there, just a natural thing.
I’m guessing is part of the reason is the 9MM is easier to handle and more soldiers easily qualify. We had a similar issue in my department and went w/the 9mm b/c some of the women had a hard time w/the larger grip & increased recoil. Also, FBI data showed little difference in street creds between the two rounds w/modern ammo.
@@oldcop18 That's what they want you to believe. They constantly refer back to studies (particularly the Ellifritz study) to support their claims. The reality is that the Ellifritz study is a mess. He combined 357 Mag and 357 Sig (there is a large power difference between the two), 44 Special is missing, and his claims at the end of the study that 9mm are in direct disagreement with the raw numbers. 9mm is the worst pistol caliber in the study, yet he passes that off by saying that enough shootings were using ball ammo that the 9mm data is skewed. But the problem with that is that it's basically an admission that the study data is skewed in general. It's very much a white-pill study. All it really says is that shotguns have the best stopping power, with rifles next, and handguns last. The recoil argument is only valid if you're talking about dropping to low recoil 9mm ammo. 9mm recoil from a Glock 19 is easily manageable, as is 45ACP from a Glock 21. Neither are considered magnum cartridges. Moving to 9mm was an excuse to spend money. In government the bean counters have a saying about money, "use it or lose it" - there's no benefit to saving the taxpayer money, it'll only get the budget manager in hot water. The government always wants to cry poor mouth, how could they if they actually had a surplus? But that's just my opinion as a civilian. I've never been in a position where I had to carry a firearm as a job, nor have I been in a firefight.
Your comment about 44 Special Energy being "close" to 357 is very insightful. The roar of a 357 on unprotected ears is noted as why it was an issue for law enforcement to shoot 357. I do not wear ear protection when I am not shooting. I am sure some do. LEO's cannot wear protection all the time. The 44 Special is a very useful caliber. Your comment on the video & below about charter arms is interesting. The Charter Arms 44 Special Bull Dog is iconic. It looks like Buffalo Bore created 44 Special +P. I am not a fan of +P in light weight snubbie revolvers. To much energy for comfortable range time. The venerable 38 & 44 at 800 fps are toxic. Plus you can shoot them at a range session.
Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ended up conceding (someone posted an email back and forth with him on a forum )that the CA Bulldog may indeed be strong enough to handle the loads he prints on a label "Not for use". Brian Pearce states that the Charter Arms Bulldog is Tier II (+P .44 Special) safe, but that extended use could prematurely loosen the gun. I use standard pressure .44 Special loads only in mine, though it is not a "weak" gun. It even came with a note in the box saying it IS +P rated.
I’ll have to pick up some of that BB .44 special! I’d like to keep something in my 629 that I could shoot inside that wouldn’t blow our eardrums out if needed! 👍🏻
.40s can be pleasant to shoot, but boils down to preferences. .40 S&W, .44 special and magnum, and .45 ACP/LC and so on. Remember kids shot placement is what counts in the end. Great video and presentation Sam. Thank you for toughing out the cold weather for this.🎩♠️☯️
Another good and interesting video. Thanks for braving the less than ideal conditions for shooting. I'm too much of a wimp to go out an shoot in this cold/snow. Take care.
I like your standard testing procedure. It makes different calibers from different videos easy to compare. What is so fantastic about today's high tech bullets and powders is that you can get fantastic and similar performance from 9mm, 38 special, 40s&w, 44 special and 45acp. For a defensive round there's really no reason to put up with the recoil of the magnums. But that's just my humble opinion!
Another advantage of revolvers, is the cartridge is fully supported, not like alot of Glocks. That's one of the problems the .40 S&W Glocks had when they came out. Another great test!
Thank you. And that has been an interesting point I have thought about before. I think that if the 10mm was kept at a lower level, it could have 40 S&W power but less case problems. But it's too late now, the 10mm is hot rodded too much and the .40 is already here.
Thanks for the vid Sam! Man those Barnes bullets are impressive. They make great rifle bullets too. On the subject of losing velocity in cold weather there is some truth to that. It's more noticeable on lower power cartridges though. There are some videos on it. I'll try to find and post them here. We still have no internet (Texas) and my phone is slooooow. Great video again. Can't believe that 45 made it through the ice!
Thanks for the comparison, Sam. Your accuracy today was incredible. That may be the hottest 45 acp round I've seen. My 1911 doesn't take +P but my Ruger handles it well. Thanks for the safety tip. Good idea stepping back when shooting the ice filled jugs. Did you notice the Ice shards flying back in your direction after both shots? Also, silly question but did you fire the 44 Special from a 44 Magnum revolver?
Thanks, yes the revolver is the S&W model 69 in .44 Mag, but I got it as it's the smallest .44 Mag frame on the market, and I wanted something sleek to test .44 Special with no concerns if the .44 Special ammo was hot. I did notice the ice shards, and I was sort of worried about such effect, that's why I stepped back. And when I say I shot ice jugs in the past, after saying I didn't know the effect, I was talking about a couple years ago when I shot some from like 50 yards with lead ammo, and the bullets stopped in it. At that distance I could not really tell the impact effect.
My Hi Point JHP 45 handles Plus P well... 9 +1 too!!! I bought some hand loads from a local guy whose father is a Locally famous shooter of handguns and rifles.... He later went to jail for hand loading his own "Sinus Remedy"...
That was a cool test. I was surprised the all copper hollow points would expand at all in anything. I really liked the ice jug shoot. I'm not sure what it proves other than its fun. I've shot ice with a hot 45 colt and a 475 Linebaugh those just pulverized the ice jug. Shooting ice jugs is the only thing fun in winter. As I get older it just hurts more and more. Thanks for a fun video.
Again, impressed with total copper bullets performance. The Glock smile was interesting, I know why they designed the semi - unsupported chamber, but does look dangerous if ammo used is hot... Never knew 45 ACP had special brass for +P, did a little more research on the Glock smile and seems most were from reused brass in reloading. Will love to hear if Buffalo Bore has a quality finding by you, and if they will pull those rounds from shelves.... but most likely shelves are empty now...LOL
I love your work in .44Special. 👍🏻 The unsupported chamber on a Glock is what made me switch over to an H&K USP in .45ACP. Over the years I have shot loads op .45 Super through the USP. Again, your work on the .44Special is fantastic.
I'm not a Glock expert, but from all the stuff I have read and seen, the chambers on Glock are slightly more supported than they used to be. At least I remember reading about stuff like that, hence why 1st gen .40's would fall apart but it's not really an issue now days.
This was a very good test especially the frozen jugs I actually thought it would do more damage though. The one comparison I'm still waiting for someone to do is 45acp vs 45 long colt
Charter is not questionable any more. The company is doing great and under current management. All their guns meet sammi standard. If there is a warning about it it's not to sammi spec.
I read something only a year ago with them going on and on about that +P ammo does not give a velocity gain in a short barrel and this is why they don't recommend +P ammo. It was sketchy information. I am not saying their company is questionable, I am saying their build quality or at least their thought process is...as I never heard any legitimate company say that +P has NO velocity gain over standard pressure in a short barrel.
Thanks so much for all the info! I am a relatively new reloader, and have been trying to find out about +p brass for a while. You just gave me what I needed. I have been sorting my brass between 38SP and 38 Sp +P. but was unsure if that was needed. Also, I am loading 45ACP for a glock 21 and learning about the weirdness of that process as I gfo along. The chamber being larger etc. I think I am getting there partly thanks to you, so Thanks Brother!
I believe that .38 Special+P brass is the same as any .38 Special brass. I reload mostly +P in my .38's and never had an issue. I think it's only a .45 ACP thing when it comes to the brass being different.
Those dang recessed stock Glock chambers... 😔 Them things can get us reloaders in trouble. Awesome stuff though. I'd like to get into 44sp someday, looks like it'd be a fun cartridge to reload. Great video. Very comparable rounds, thanks 👍
The problem with the bulge of the 45 ACP is because the recoil spring is not strong enough, so the slide disarms and the unburn gases stay in the case, and can cause an explosion. You should put a stronger recoil spring. Secondly, the Glocks in 45ACP stand for standard pressures. The same happened to a friend who reloaded a 45ACP Cartridge +P in a Glock. In his case, the explosion blew down the stock and injured his hand. I had a Norinco 45 ACP and you could reload in +P++++ configuration!, and it was OK. I tell you again try this ammunition with a 1911 system and a stronger recoil spring.. My regards from what is left of Argentina, GOOD SHOW GUN SAM!!!! PD: How can you dare to use a Glock in the country of John Browning! Glocks only work for standard ammunition, a friend used a glock 22lr with 22 High Velocity and it blew the stractor pin!
In pre-UA-cam times, I frequented the USENET group rec.guns. The Glocks were famous for blowing out completely when shooting reloaded 40 S&W ammunition. The reason is because the factory barrels are not properly supported in the 6 O'Clock position. Most of the time with typical factory ammo, this is not a problem as the brass can handle being stretched one time. But not a second, even with a proper full length resizing die. Hence the market for after market barrels like Bar-Sto. The BB 45 load would probably be fine in a full size 1911. I am really loving those Barnes solid copper bullets. I do wish more load data was available for them. I also wish they were a lot cheaper. In spite of the energy deficit vs the 45, that 44 is a very respectable load.
You sir are a champion to go out in 16 degree weather and shoot water jugs. I know the two things that go worst together in my book are being cold and wet. Seriously, thank you for your efforts. I have an old Charter Arms classic Son of Sam version and a new stainless steel one called the On-Duty Bulldog. I can agree the older version of the Bulldog is not one I would shoot any hyper ammo in. The new one I have, and it has done fine. I don’t do a steady diet of the these but it has handled a cylinder full without issues. That said the snappy recoil is not good at all, many times I have to break my firing grip to get a better grip for a follow up shot. I rarely carry the On-duty these days, I just don’t feel comfortable will 5 rounds, but when I do the 165gr Critical Defense are my choice for ammo. As for fun powerful hand loads the Keith load is a good choice and I like the 200gr Hornady XTP with 5.2gr of Hogdon Tite-group. I will say this for the .44spl, when those go off in a snubby the blast is startling to say the least.
Thanks. I have not loaded .44 Special or Magnum ammo yet, but I totally believe your experience with Titegroup. My go to load in .38+P was always 5.0 gr of that, such a clean powerful load with no flash.
Case bulging is a common issue in Glocks, due a portion of the cases are unsupported. I ran into this with reloading Glock once fired ammo in another firearm, especially if your using hot ammo. I ran into this when I reloaded 9mm in once fired Glock cases in a friends Taurus pistol. When I researched the issue where the reloaded case wouldn't chamber or got stuck in the chamber and had to be manually removed. Buldged cases are common in Glock fired pistols and requires a special reloading sizer die that goes down further onto the fired casing.
I have read that glock makes them that way so that they will chamber any round that you can find for the military. That is what makes them dependable. It makes sense for a military round but is a bad deal for reloading. That is why they make so many after market barrels.
I always enjoy your cartridge comparisons. I do take exception to your comment on Charter Arms revolvers to be of questionable quality. Charter Arms revolvers aren’t r rated for +P ammunition because they are designed to be a light weight concealed carry handgun. A Bulldog.44 weighs in at 22oz as opposed to a 37oz S&W. Personally I concern +P ammo to be a waste of money for self defense.
I stand by my statement. On their own website they list this: "Can I shoot +P in my .38 revolver? Charter .38's are among the smallest revolvers in this caliber. Yes they can handle +P but we do not recommend it for the following reasons: +P ammo requires a four-inch minimum barrel to burn the extra powder. Therefore, in a two-inch barrel the extra powder is burned after the bullet leaves the barrel creating more recoil and making it harder to come back to target. We recommend a standard velocity load and practice with round nose lead rounds which are the least expensive. When you load for protection, use a jacketed or hollow point in the same grain you practice with." So, "questionable?" ABSOLUTELY. They know nothing about internal ballistics, to tell someone that a 4" barrel minimum is needed to "burn the extra powder", when extra powder is not what makes a +P, a +P in general. A +P is an increase in pressure, with or without extra powder, and some of the +P loads that are made +P by using extra powder, do indeed give a SIGNIFICANT increase in power over standard pressure in a snub nose barrel. So "questionable" is an understatement.
Great content Sam. I do enjoy your testing and passion. Wondering if a M&P45 would provide better base support for the 45 casing compared to your stock Glock.
Thanks. Interestingly enough i'm thinking of getting my first M&P, but not a .45. Looking at the 5" 9mm, if I can get one in flat dark earth I will, if not than okay too. Figure with the 9mm fanboys out there, maybe I can hook some. The more views the more revolvers I can buy ;)
As always, a great video! I would like to se you firing the 44 special and/or the 45ACP with round nose or semi wadcutter bullet for comaparisment. Either way, thank you very much for sharing!
Thanks. I was actually looking at a way to do a non expanding ammo test and thought that the Buffalo Bore .45 ACP FMJ 230 gr and .44 Special 200 gr WC might be nice. I did already do some tests with what you mentioned with Underwood 255 gr in both.
Shooting Iced Jugs should totally take the place of Curling! If it becomes a thing measure the distance w a ruler how far it goes....from the same spot and compare...kinda instead of the board penetration...of course matters how icey bottom of box is...but interesting to add on end of video.
Awsome video. You are talking my 2 most favorite pistol cartridges. Both will defend from 2 or 4 legs. Mine is a Colt 1911 and a Ruger Blackhawk.. God bless. Love your videos.
Great video as always, when I see .45 ACP and .44 Special I am happy. I have a couple of questions as per usual. How does the average .45 compare in the loudness department to .44 Special? Also, if you had to pick between a .45 Auto and a .44 Special revolvers which one would you choose, assuming virtually everything besides caliber is the same, and why?
Well, I essentially had those opportunities, and I chose this one in .44 Magnum as it's a well built .44, close to the same size as a .44 Special revolver, but in magnum. The only reason I would buy a .45 ACP revolver would be one of maybe two reasons; one I happen to have a bunch of .45 ACP pistols and or ammo, and two if I happened to get something in .45 Casull or similar, that was also cut for .45 ACP moon clips.
I load my 45ACP 1911 and my Charter Pit Bulls ( 2 old models and 1 new model) with 200 gr lead bullets at 800 fps. Similar power, but the recoil in the 44 is as hard as I can stand for plinking. My Charters have been 100% reliable. YMMV
Plenty powerful for what? 22 is plenty powerful for rabbits. The figures that you cite aren't legal for hunting anything larger than coyotes, in this state. I love my 357 mag. I have some buffalo bore that develops over 800 fpe. Not more useful than 10mm for 2 legged predators, but it's great for 4 legged predators.
@@danoneill2846 I was just pointing out that your statement is too inclusive. I run my 357 magnum at around the same energy. It's certainly plenty powerful for 2 legged predators. The Hornady XTPs in 10mm run about that speed, according to luckygunner. They got 16.9" of penetration, according to the test. it's a good round, but plenty powerful needs to be qualified.
@@Baurakale777 I have shot 10mm JHPs through thick sheet steel that stopped other rounds . Bears are not an issue for me , but I think it would also go into a bears head . A 357 or 10mm can take a deer if you place your shot right . They all have their place .
@@danoneill2846 this state has different hunting laws. 600 fpe is the legal minimum. I've seen UA-camrs harvest deer with Jukar 45 pistols that develop around 250 fpe, but that doesn't mean it would be legal here. The world record grizzly was harvested with a break action 22lr, but you'd go to jail for trying to take anything larger than coyotes in this state.
Great 👍video shared few times. Some good info to have. First hard about charter arms haveing issues. All what I ever her is good. They just released a snub nose 41mag ? Wish offered it longer barrel like the target models.
Cold weather 1,000% produces lower muzzle velocities and it does it by lowering the powder burn rate in the ammunition when the cartridges themselves get cold. The more likely explanation if you see no major changes in handguns is the fact they use fast burning powders and short barrels making this phenomenons effects appear to be little to none.
Do fully kaboomed cases often cause FTE or stove pipe jams so it's questionable? Recoil just kinda pushing it for .45 use for rapid shots? I didn't think .44 special from short barrels were good, but this round, and one of my viewers said 200 gr gold dots open up fine as well. Just expensive rounds and hard to find....cause sometimes can find the .44special gp100's for not too expensive used or new even.
EXCELLENT accuracy when getting the averages for the 44 special. From where I was sitting it looked as if all the shots were touching. I was surprised with the depth each toppings traveled into the frozen jugs. I automatically wondered if each round would be adequate for best country?
I would probably use a solid bullet for bears, as their skin and bone structure is like 3 times that of man, and their ribs are liken to level 1 body armor. You should use a solid hard cast or Xtreme penetrator, or at a minimum soft point to insure penetration.
Another good backyard vid. I can't wait till us re-loaders can get a chance to make some "freedom seeds"! 44sp is like the 45 colt. A big slow moving slug that's hard to mushroom. If you get board, maybe you could do a vid on drilling out SWC bullets in 38sp and 44sp and see what they do. Just an idea... Stay safe..
Watching you video, I was going to buy Buffalo bore plus p 0.45ACP, but seeing that she’ll bulge like that, not so sure now. Thanks for video and sharing that.
That .45 looks like the Glock unsupported case head syndrome that BB warns about in .40 S&W. I used to see a lesser version of that with hotter loads in stock Glock 23. I now have an aftermarket barrel in that gun and the bulged case head problem is gone. Funny you posted this just now as I'm thinking about a .45 for woods carry. I think I'd probably go for a 1911 anyway but I wonder what BB will say about that bulged .45?
@@828enigma6 Switched to a KKM 4.5" Now getting about +65 fps with my 180 gr woods load and about +80 fps with my 155 gr hollowpoint. Same powder charges as before.
I've ran into that with buffalo bore on 45 acp loads. All of their +p loads are never in +p brass. That being said I've never had an issue with case bulging in any of my 1911's or S&W M&P's.
I'm a little surprised you didn't turn your 'JUG OR NOT' apparatus so you weren't staring into the sun. Didn't seem to impede the results. Just a friendly suggestion. Always interesting content. Re-Subed. It seems Uoo-Toob has auto unsubscribed me. Fixed it, carry on. Cheers from Alaska.
I have done that. It makes the video basically black. The way I have it is the only way to consistently have good light no matter the time of year. Here's the other direction: ua-cam.com/video/5pgV4Un6Mrg/v-deo.html And I have done all 4 directions and the way I have it now gives a consistent lighting in all 4 seasons.
The .44 Special was the sweetheart of the Texas Rangers for a period of time. Good record of performance. Either i wouldn't have any hesitation to use in a bad situation.
That bulge is why I don't like .45 ACP loaded hot. Its asking the cartridge and often the platform to do things its not good at. What's your opinion on the Barnes bullets? Do you think they are a viable alternative to the classic soft point or lead hollow point? Awesome video as always! And brrr looked cold!
Thanks. I think some rounds could benefit from a barnes bullet, but some do not. As being copper, less dense and longer, this is perfect for long cases where you want to make a low recoil high powered round with less powder bit more pressure like .44 Special, .38 Special etc. But for 9mm, .45 ACP and other short cases where space is limited, a lead bullet is better as the case being taken up by too much bullet reduced it's potential.
Great comparison...maybe a follow up comparing Ruger 44 gap to their 44mag for size and 44special comparison or maybe a 45acp revolver comparison Side note, I’ve got my son building a version of the “Jug or Not” here...kudos!
Thanks. What's funny is that while I envisioned my box and built it 100% on my own ideas, after the fact I found out that it was already a thing called a Fackler box, and essentially identical as it was designed to hold water jugs. I guess this Fackler guy was also the pioneer who then helped develop ballistics gel and it's use.
10mm & 44 ( 429 ) seem to be in the sweet spot VS slower 45's bullets . The slower the 45 is the better the 44 & 10mm do with the same energy . NO DIS to 45 cal , I think when one is a little short of 12" , in most cases , the target would be stopped . The front area of the bullet is the sweet spot & expansion is not needed .
I was thinking last night about .45 auto for people that say 10mm is perfect for woods carry. I mean, i'm not really giving any serious opinion or expert knowledge when I have to ask....if 10mm is .40 cal and hard cast are usually 700 ft lbs, and .45+P is .45 cal hard cast and usually 550 ft lbs....is there really any significant difference in what it would do against a brown bear? I honestly would not know, but a lot of people will say the 10mm is enough and the .45 is not, so it just gives me bear food for thought.
the 45 bulging is a not necessarily max load but unsupported barrel which can cause cause nasty blow out. what I am going to say will make some people mad but the truth. just because a person spends high bucks and quality made it doesn’t mean you can just shoot any hot load with out properly testing . I don’t recommend shooting Buffalo bore semi automatic ammunition that’s rated plus p or above in chamber pressure with a unsupported barrel. even Buffalo bore in there information below the ammo tells you so. I only have two 45 acp rated plus p. I sadly shoot my 45 super reloads in both pistols for self defense and hunting outherwise limited use . Taurus model pt 845 and hi point 45 acp . no pressure signs, no bulging brass , slightly flattened primers . works flawlessly in both pistols. the thing is your glock down the road can give serious trouble with that ammunition shot with unsupported barrel and I wouldn’t shoot it with out a supported barrel. It was another great video, and honest testing which I appreciate. I wouldn’t have expected the bullets to hold together on the ice jugs but wow , they sure did . Nana and papa aka the hunter wishing you well.
Love your vids - and don’t usually like to be that guy that just comments negatives (in all fairness, this is one of the first times I’ve read through UA-cam comments on a gun vid.... I see why people give so many disclaimers now.) Just wanted to say - there are some variations in handgun ammo based on temp and powder. I haven’t noticed it in cool weather so much. Mostly on hot days (and yes, leaving carts in direct sunlight absolutely can affect pressure) - but, depending on powder choice, I have seen variations to the point I’ve altered a few hunting sidearm loads because of it. Variations are usually minute, but for my uses (primarily hog), that tiny bit has shown up on paper. I guess what I’m saying is: temp may not matter to most handgun purposes, but yes, there are some variations with certain powders. Probably not enough to mention for most people. But, it does exist.
I did a study where I took my 5 shot averages in July-ish VS 5 shot averages from same box of ammo in same gun in January-ish, about 75 degree average VS about 30 degree average. Out of maybe 10-12 types of ammo, I think it was like 9 or 10 that shot faster in the colder weather. I am no expert on why this is, but those are the numbers I got.
I found through testing that the 230 gr Gold Dot, even at 780 FPS was as good as all other defensive ammo. Not bad for the low power and low recoil obviously.
That bulge would be a deal breaker for me. I always cringe when I see people shooting 45acp +P out of vintage 1911’s. It’s like putting a 100 year old grandmother on roller skates down an icy hill...
I'll take my Super Blackhawk to the range next week and see how much better 44spl is over the 44mag. I know I don't want to shoot 44mag in a handgun again. I'll leave that for my Henry levergun.
Shot my SBH with 44spl today. It is alot more controllable. Most rounds stayed in the center of the silhouette target. They were all over the target with 44mag.
One drawback of the special over the mag is availability even in normal times, so the pricetag tends to be higher. Sometimes much higher. It's a good round, it just needs to be not as expensive as a round with a while more power in the same caliber.
it's one of those backburner rounds that get produced like once a year by normal companies rather than a few times a year like .38 Special or never ending production like 9mm. If you could time it what time of year each company makes .44 Special that would be nice, but they don't let you know lol.
I'd say warm is an understatement on that 45 load. Could have been a one round over charged fluke in a box of 20, or just complete negligence on their loading of this round altogether. Until you check more casings its hard to say. For the velocities its running with bullet weight in comes real close to low-mid range 10mm territory. Rowdy round. They both are. Has a charter arms bulldog years ago. Love the cartarige, love the gun. Just very poorly made and it's one of those you almost love more than you should because of what it is and what it offers for size.
There is an Underwood round I tested that was much hotter than this, and I didn't happen to find any bulged brass though. I think it was upper 600's for energy, but Underwood uses some sort of newer nickel plating process that is superior to others so maybe this kept it from bulging.
@@GunSam here of lately on all aspects of everything we deal with, I've found 45 super brass is easier to come by. I just load what I do, document the box, and use a metallic sharpie to color coat the primer. That should handle any pressure. And I'm not loading anything astronomical. Just badass for what it is . Or what not.
I have gotten some comments about my Charter Arms statement, so I want to first pin something that is on Charter Arm's website, than then give my reiteration of saying "Charter Arms is a questionable company". Here is something from their website in the FAQ section:
Can I shoot +P in my .38 revolver?
"Charter .38's are among the smallest revolvers in this caliber. Yes they can handle +P but we do not recommend it for the following reasons:
+P ammo requires a four-inch minimum barrel to burn the extra powder. Therefore, in a two-inch barrel the extra powder is burned after the bullet leaves the barrel creating more recoil and making it harder to come back to target. We recommend a standard velocity load and practice with round nose lead rounds which are the least expensive. When you load for protection, use a jacketed or hollow point in the same grain you practice with."
I call Charter Arms "questionable", as they are giving total BS for internal/exterior ballistics information. One, a +P load does not require a 4" minimum to burn "the extra powder". The designation "+P" stands for nothing more than plus pressure, which can be gained through many ways such as seating a bullet deeper, using different powder and also but not limited to, adding extra powder. I have seen time and time again that you always gain velocity in a snub nose barrel when using a +P over a standard pressure. Two, there is no set limit of extra powder that burns after the bullet leaves the muzzle resulting in more recoil, it's based on many factors and all ammo loses some power in a snub nose barrel whether it's +P or not, and even if this were the case it would not result in making it significantly "harder" to come back on target, I mean they are acting like .38 Special+P has the same recoil as .357 Magnum in a snub nose revolver. Three, they list that you should practice with round nose lead ammo, then use jacketed hollow points for protection? Oh man, this has a lot of things going on;
First off, they should mention that if you use lead ammo to practice with, that you NEED to clean the bore before you use jacketed ammo. Second, lead round nose ammo is almost always 158 gr, and they are basically saying that for defense, you should load standard pressure 158 gr JHP ammo?! Yeah, as we all know this will not expand out of a snub nose even if it was a +P load, you need at a bare minimum for a standard pressure to expand, a soft point 110 gr, or you need it to be +P if it's 125 to 130 gr, or else you will get zero expansion. Third, they are insinuating that the recoil with 158 gr LRN and 158 gr JHP would be identical, which it would not be. A jacketed round always contains more powder than a lead round, as a lead 158 gr can get the same velocity with less powder, we see this in practice and we see it in reloading manuals, therefore a LRN will have less felt recoil than a JHP bullet.
So I stand by my statement that Charter Arms is questionable. If they don't even know ballistics 101 and are making firearms, this is a questionable combination. Not to mention Buffalo Bore probably has other reasons to say not to use Charter Arms. My suspicion is that Buffalo Bore made some kabooms while rating ammo in those revolvers. This is just speculation though.
Sounds like they m
Promote nonsense. Make a decent weapon instead of false claims about rounds and ballistics.
I am no expert, but I do own two Charter Arms 44 snubbies. I have an older Classic "Son of Sam" style Bulldog, and I have a newer (bought in 2018) On-Duty Bulldog. I have not and would not shoot high pressure "hyper ammo" in the older gun. It’s just too weak. It looks weak, it feels weak. Back when I got it I was 22 or 23 years old and knew very little about ballistics. I just remember the guy at the gun store saying, "bigger holes mean bigger problems for the bad guy you shoot." I’m 55 now, and I’ve learned a good bit more about reloading and ballistics and the new Bulldog I have can handle some of the hyper defensive ammos, but the gun is just too light. A steady diet would break it over time I’m sure, but I’ve shot cylinders full of my reloads which are pretty stout, but no where near Buffalo Bore standards. I load a 200gr HTP with 5.2gr of Tite-group and that is good pop for that gun. So the ammo is there if I had to have it, but I mainly carry 165gr Hornady Critical Defense, and I rarely carry the gun any way. I bought it because I was intrigued by a the "New" stainless steel .44 shrouded snubby Charter Arms was selling. It was new, it was inexpensive and unfortunately in this hobby if it’s new, you have to buy it to try it. It’s been a fun gun to shoot, but by no means is it a high quality gun. That’s my opinion, and I offer it only because I have that experience with them.
Some desk jockey giving out advice on standard pressure vs +P. But there is a ongoing debate on the subject. You through shade on the quality of a Charter because of this ? One piece frame Remember. Small light weight. How's that LCP working out for you ? How many Charters you sent in for repair ? How many Taurus's ? Yet you keeping buying them. I have never sent in a Charter. And I've owned them since the 1980's. I have sent only 1 firearm in, in my life. That's a S&W MP15-22. I will never send in another S&W. That so called firearm has a problem that has been going on for 6 years. It's a safety issue they refuse to address. Hence I will never buy anther one. Same reason I'll never send in a Taurus being that I will never buy the first one. As far as the Glock bulge good job. People still argue it doesn't exist. Would I carry a Glock. Yes. But I reload and will never buy one. And yes I did reload for a 42 and no good came from it.
@@patrickbolthouse7354 Yeah, but I stand by the simple thing I said about them being questionable. Buffalo Bore says don't use this ammo in a Charter Arms, while on the box saying it's safe for ALL .44 Special and .44 Magnum revolvers. And Charter Arms themselves says not to use +P in their .38 Special revolvers, and gives odd reasons for it. I would call all this "questionable". You have to remember, I never stated Charter Arms quality, I said their company was questionable, and with the stuff they say I stand by the whole subject of warm ammo, with what they say as questionable.
@@GunSam Actually, when you state that the company is questionable, you are questioning the quality of the product and/or the integrity of the company. You are implying that Charter Arms products are unsafe.
That's the reason I consider the 44 special to be the best everyday carry round. The power of the 357 and less decibels than a 9mm. In real world situations, I'd rather not suffer hearing loss. Love your big bore comparison videos.
That 45 load in a 45 acp revolver would make quite a good job.
Yeah I’d shoot that in my Redhawk and it’d tame it totally! 👍🏻
That 44 Special was ideal in performance. No over penetration and perfect expansion characteristics. And no over pressure signs.
Wow, that .45 load is badass. The .44 Special load isn't really a bad load. I was inpressed by the penetration on the ice jug. Great video.
Lester Moore’s tombstone in Tombstone.
“Here lies Lester Moore. 4 shots from a.44. No Les. No more.”
The .45 was impressive. That’s what I can call a man stopper. That deformity in the.45 round at the end was worrisome. I used to wipe down the ammunition I didn’t use because of the condensation that occurs in a speed loader pouch. I made a point to rotate my ammo from day to day and go to the range and fire those off and buy new ammunition just to be safe.
The .44 Special seems like a good idea for personal protection if carrying a.44 magnum revolver.
The Charter Arms issue. In my opinion, Charter Arms is not a bad company for the prices of their firearms. Their Bulldog revolvers were popular back in the day (David Berkowitz , a.k.a, Son Of Sam used a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special).
There are a lot of handguns that cannot use hot ammunition. So, buyer beware in that case.
Do more ice tests.
That ice jug test clearly shows the power of them there bullets. I was quite surprised at how far they pushed the jugs back. Please use other calibers on the ice jugs to see how far they push the jugs. The 44 Special is underestimated for its defensive potential. Another good video. Keep them coming.
Some great points on why someone would choose 44 spl. Great comparison also!!
Thank you.
I would choose the .44 special if it was quieter 🔇. Who walks around with hearing protection with their daily CCW? But that .45ACP is absolutely impressive.
Those are my calibers 👍 . The 44 can be more versatile with power but the 45 just good all around if the rounds run in your gun.
I agree with the point about 45 Plus P brass. As someone who loads 45 SUPER loads in regular acp brass I know it is plenty strong in a fully supported chamber but not in a factory Glock or GI barrel.
Also your double action trigger control is fantastic.
Thanks. It's actually easier for me than single action as rather than using technique, the hard press sort of stabilizes the shots. So truth be told it's not hard work to get there, just a natural thing.
Thanks Sam for the snow we generally don’t get a lot here in Mississippi.😉
Too much here in MI. Even if no one else has it, we have it, and Buffalo NY has it....from lake effect.
@@GunSam Yeah it's been colder than...well it's been cold here. Over a foot of snow standing in the Lansing area.
im starting to wonder why the military ever deviated from the 45acp.
Same reason as the FBI going away from smaller calibers.
@@GunSam I assume you mean to spend the tax payers money since they get a cut off the top of every dollar they spend.
I’m guessing is part of the reason is the 9MM is easier to handle and more soldiers easily qualify. We had a similar issue in my department and went w/the 9mm b/c some of the women had a hard time w/the larger grip & increased recoil. Also, FBI data showed little difference in street creds between the two rounds w/modern ammo.
Smaller rounds more capacity lighter recoil and faster, its more fun to mag dump. 🤷♂️
@@oldcop18 That's what they want you to believe. They constantly refer back to studies (particularly the Ellifritz study) to support their claims. The reality is that the Ellifritz study is a mess. He combined 357 Mag and 357 Sig (there is a large power difference between the two), 44 Special is missing, and his claims at the end of the study that 9mm are in direct disagreement with the raw numbers. 9mm is the worst pistol caliber in the study, yet he passes that off by saying that enough shootings were using ball ammo that the 9mm data is skewed. But the problem with that is that it's basically an admission that the study data is skewed in general. It's very much a white-pill study. All it really says is that shotguns have the best stopping power, with rifles next, and handguns last. The recoil argument is only valid if you're talking about dropping to low recoil 9mm ammo. 9mm recoil from a Glock 19 is easily manageable, as is 45ACP from a Glock 21. Neither are considered magnum cartridges. Moving to 9mm was an excuse to spend money. In government the bean counters have a saying about money, "use it or lose it" - there's no benefit to saving the taxpayer money, it'll only get the budget manager in hot water. The government always wants to cry poor mouth, how could they if they actually had a surplus? But that's just my opinion as a civilian. I've never been in a position where I had to carry a firearm as a job, nor have I been in a firefight.
Impressed with the low recoil on he 44 special. Enjoyed another fun video. Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Your comment about 44 Special Energy being "close" to 357 is very insightful. The roar of a 357 on unprotected ears is noted as why it was an issue for law enforcement to shoot 357. I do not wear ear protection when I am not shooting. I am sure some do. LEO's cannot wear protection all the time.
The 44 Special is a very useful caliber.
Your comment on the video & below about charter arms is interesting. The Charter Arms 44 Special Bull Dog is iconic. It looks like Buffalo Bore created 44 Special +P.
I am not a fan of +P in light weight snubbie revolvers. To much energy for comfortable range time. The venerable 38 & 44 at 800 fps are toxic. Plus you can shoot them at a range session.
Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ended up conceding (someone posted an email back and forth with him on a forum )that the CA Bulldog may indeed be strong enough to handle the loads he prints on a label "Not for use". Brian Pearce states that the Charter Arms Bulldog is Tier II (+P .44 Special) safe, but that extended use could prematurely loosen the gun.
I use standard pressure .44 Special loads only in mine, though it is not a "weak" gun. It even came with a note in the box saying it IS +P rated.
I’ll have to pick up some of that BB .44 special! I’d like to keep something in my 629 that I could shoot inside that wouldn’t blow our eardrums out if needed! 👍🏻
.40s can be pleasant to shoot, but boils down to preferences. .40 S&W, .44 special and magnum, and .45 ACP/LC and so on. Remember kids shot placement is what counts in the end. Great video and presentation Sam. Thank you for toughing out the cold weather for this.🎩♠️☯️
Thank you. Hence why i'm at one video a week/4 a month, was at maybe 6 a month but the cold gets to my RA symptoms.
Another good and interesting video. Thanks for braving the less than ideal conditions for shooting. I'm too much of a wimp to go out an shoot in this cold/snow. Take care.
Thanks. Yeah I been doing one video every 7 days instead of every 4 or so like I used to, just trying to make it through the worst of the winter.
@@GunSam Thanks. I appreciate all that your are doing. I always look forward to and enjoy your videos.
I like your standard testing procedure. It makes different calibers from different videos easy to compare. What is so fantastic about today's high tech bullets and powders is that you can get fantastic and similar performance from 9mm, 38 special, 40s&w, 44 special and 45acp. For a defensive round there's really no reason to put up with the recoil of the magnums. But that's just my humble opinion!
Thanks. There's always that balance between raw power and technology, sort of like cars. If you can get the right technology, you can do good things.
Another advantage of revolvers, is the cartridge is fully supported, not like alot of Glocks.
That's one of the problems the .40 S&W Glocks had when they came out.
Another great test!
Thank you. And that has been an interesting point I have thought about before. I think that if the 10mm was kept at a lower level, it could have 40 S&W power but less case problems. But it's too late now, the 10mm is hot rodded too much and the .40 is already here.
The cashiers at your grocery store prolly think you're a huge fan of the cheap bologna. :)
I buy 2 packs in a whole cart of food. So, would be odd if they did
Gun Sam stands at the register drooling while he’s counting his money saying "I likes me some fried bologna sammiches." 😉
Thanks for the vid Sam! Man those Barnes bullets are impressive. They make great rifle bullets too. On the subject of losing velocity in cold weather there is some truth to that. It's more noticeable on lower power cartridges though. There are some videos on it. I'll try to find and post them here. We still have no internet (Texas) and my phone is slooooow. Great video again. Can't believe that 45 made it through the ice!
Thanks!
Thanks for the comparison, Sam. Your accuracy today was incredible. That may be the hottest 45 acp round I've seen. My 1911 doesn't take +P but my Ruger handles it well. Thanks for the safety tip. Good idea stepping back when shooting the ice filled jugs. Did you notice the Ice shards flying back in your direction after both shots? Also, silly question but did you fire the 44 Special from a 44 Magnum revolver?
Thanks, yes the revolver is the S&W model 69 in .44 Mag, but I got it as it's the smallest .44 Mag frame on the market, and I wanted something sleek to test .44 Special with no concerns if the .44 Special ammo was hot. I did notice the ice shards, and I was sort of worried about such effect, that's why I stepped back. And when I say I shot ice jugs in the past, after saying I didn't know the effect, I was talking about a couple years ago when I shot some from like 50 yards with lead ammo, and the bullets stopped in it. At that distance I could not really tell the impact effect.
My Hi Point JHP 45 handles Plus P well... 9 +1 too!!!
I bought some hand loads from a local guy whose father is a Locally famous shooter of handguns and rifles....
He later went to jail for hand loading his own "Sinus Remedy"...
Revolver rules still.
Thanks for your hard work even if it is 16 degrees outside. I always enjoy your contents! Great work!
Thanks!
That was a cool test. I was surprised the all copper hollow points would expand at all in anything. I really liked the ice jug shoot. I'm not sure what it proves other than its fun. I've shot ice with a hot 45 colt and a 475 Linebaugh those just pulverized the ice jug. Shooting ice jugs is the only thing fun in winter. As I get older it just hurts more and more. Thanks for a fun video.
Thanks for watching!
Again, impressed with total copper bullets performance. The Glock smile was interesting, I know why they designed the semi - unsupported chamber, but does look dangerous if ammo used is hot... Never knew 45 ACP had special brass for +P, did a little more research on the Glock smile and seems most were from reused brass in reloading. Will love to hear if Buffalo Bore has a quality finding by you, and if they will pull those rounds from shelves.... but most likely shelves are empty now...LOL
Holy cow your 44 mag likes those specials. Nice group!
Thanks.
Interesting info at the end thanks for adding it thumbs up....
Thanks for watching!
I love your work in .44Special. 👍🏻
The unsupported chamber on a Glock is what made me switch over to an H&K USP in .45ACP. Over the years I have shot loads op .45 Super through the USP.
Again, your work on the .44Special is fantastic.
I'm not a Glock expert, but from all the stuff I have read and seen, the chambers on Glock are slightly more supported than they used to be. At least I remember reading about stuff like that, hence why 1st gen .40's would fall apart but it's not really an issue now days.
Always love watching your videos you have inspired me to do even further testing while out having fun at the range
I suggest more ice jug testing for the future :)
Well, yeah...unless it's July lol. I do have a garage freezer though ;)
This was a very good test especially the frozen jugs I actually thought it would do more damage though. The one comparison I'm still waiting for someone to do is 45acp vs 45 long colt
Thanks. Maybe someday.
@@GunSam that would be a cool one
Charter is not questionable any more. The company is doing great and under current management. All their guns meet sammi standard. If there is a warning about it it's not to sammi spec.
I read something only a year ago with them going on and on about that +P ammo does not give a velocity gain in a short barrel and this is why they don't recommend +P ammo. It was sketchy information. I am not saying their company is questionable, I am saying their build quality or at least their thought process is...as I never heard any legitimate company say that +P has NO velocity gain over standard pressure in a short barrel.
This test was awesome and I love the ice comparison at the end Sam! That .44 round might be a good option for self defense without over penetration?!
Thanks. Yeah O think that .44 Special seems promising in general as a defensive load.
Awesome that you just posted this. Just got some Barnes 44 specials to load, looking forward to it.
Thanks so much for all the info! I am a relatively new reloader, and have been trying to find out about +p brass for a while. You just gave me what I needed. I have been sorting my brass between 38SP and 38 Sp +P. but was unsure if that was needed. Also, I am loading 45ACP for a glock 21 and learning about the weirdness of that process as I gfo along. The chamber being larger etc. I think I am getting there partly thanks to you, so Thanks Brother!
I believe that .38 Special+P brass is the same as any .38 Special brass. I reload mostly +P in my .38's and never had an issue. I think it's only a .45 ACP thing when it comes to the brass being different.
Great shooting with the .44 . Both rounds performed well. I might have to sell a motorcycle so I can afford some of this ammo 🤣. Thanks Sam.
Yeah I have to sell my .44 to afford it. Wait, what? lol
My old Charter Arms Bulldog let go on me back in the '80's. Only shot I've ever taken where the recoil was straight down.
Those dang recessed stock Glock chambers... 😔 Them things can get us reloaders in trouble. Awesome stuff though. I'd like to get into 44sp someday, looks like it'd be a fun cartridge to reload. Great video. Very comparable rounds, thanks 👍
Thank you.
Man these "blow out" are dangerous. A little bit more pressure and it will be a blow up!
Save a few for the 4th of July left on the dash in your truck = max load
The problem with the bulge of the 45 ACP is because the recoil spring is not strong enough, so the slide disarms and the unburn gases stay in the case, and can cause an explosion. You should put a stronger recoil spring. Secondly, the Glocks in 45ACP stand for standard pressures. The same happened to a friend who reloaded a 45ACP Cartridge +P in a Glock. In his case, the explosion blew down the stock and injured his hand. I had a Norinco 45 ACP and you could reload in +P++++ configuration!, and it was OK. I tell you again try this ammunition with a 1911 system and a stronger recoil spring.. My regards from what is left of Argentina, GOOD SHOW GUN SAM!!!! PD: How can you dare to use a Glock in the country of John Browning!
Glocks only work for standard ammunition, a friend used a glock 22lr with 22 High Velocity and it blew the stractor pin!
In pre-UA-cam times, I frequented the USENET group rec.guns. The Glocks were famous for blowing out completely when shooting reloaded 40 S&W ammunition. The reason is because the factory barrels are not properly supported in the 6 O'Clock position. Most of the time with typical factory ammo, this is not a problem as the brass can handle being stretched one time. But not a second, even with a proper full length resizing die. Hence the market for after market barrels like Bar-Sto. The BB 45 load would probably be fine in a full size 1911.
I am really loving those Barnes solid copper bullets. I do wish more load data was available for them. I also wish they were a lot cheaper. In spite of the energy deficit vs the 45, that 44 is a very respectable load.
Great video, keep on shooting brother , keep on shooting.
Thank you.
You sir are a champion to go out in 16 degree weather and shoot water jugs. I know the two things that go worst together in my book are being cold and wet. Seriously, thank you for your efforts. I have an old Charter Arms classic Son of Sam version and a new stainless steel one called the On-Duty Bulldog. I can agree the older version of the Bulldog is not one I would shoot any hyper ammo in. The new one I have, and it has done fine. I don’t do a steady diet of the these but it has handled a cylinder full without issues. That said the snappy recoil is not good at all, many times I have to break my firing grip to get a better grip for a follow up shot. I rarely carry the On-duty these days, I just don’t feel comfortable will 5 rounds, but when I do the 165gr Critical Defense are my choice for ammo. As for fun powerful hand loads the Keith load is a good choice and I like the 200gr Hornady XTP with 5.2gr of Hogdon Tite-group. I will say this for the .44spl, when those go off in a snubby the blast is startling to say the least.
Thanks. I have not loaded .44 Special or Magnum ammo yet, but I totally believe your experience with Titegroup. My go to load in .38+P was always 5.0 gr of that, such a clean powerful load with no flash.
Case bulging is a common issue in Glocks, due a portion of the cases are unsupported. I ran into this with reloading Glock once fired ammo in another firearm, especially if your using hot ammo.
I ran into this when I reloaded 9mm in once fired Glock cases in a friends Taurus pistol. When I researched the issue where the reloaded case wouldn't chamber or got stuck in the chamber and had to be manually removed. Buldged cases are common in Glock fired pistols and requires a special reloading sizer die that goes down further onto the fired casing.
I have read that glock makes them that way so that they will chamber any round that you can find for the military. That is what makes them dependable. It makes sense for a military round but is a bad deal for reloading. That is why they make so many after market barrels.
Just seeing this video, you’re a badass with those pistols. Thanks for another great video.
I always enjoy your cartridge comparisons. I do take exception to your comment on Charter Arms revolvers to be of questionable quality. Charter Arms revolvers aren’t r rated for +P ammunition because they are designed to be a light weight concealed carry handgun. A Bulldog.44 weighs in at 22oz as opposed to a 37oz S&W. Personally I concern +P ammo to be a waste of money for self defense.
I stand by my statement. On their own website they list this:
"Can I shoot +P in my .38 revolver?
Charter .38's are among the smallest revolvers in this caliber. Yes they can handle +P but we do not recommend it for the following reasons:
+P ammo requires a four-inch minimum barrel to burn the extra powder. Therefore, in a two-inch barrel the extra powder is burned after the bullet leaves the barrel creating more recoil and making it harder to come back to target.
We recommend a standard velocity load and practice with round nose lead rounds which are the least expensive. When you load for protection, use a jacketed or hollow point in the same grain you practice with."
So, "questionable?" ABSOLUTELY. They know nothing about internal ballistics, to tell someone that a 4" barrel minimum is needed to "burn the extra powder", when extra powder is not what makes a +P, a +P in general. A +P is an increase in pressure, with or without extra powder, and some of the +P loads that are made +P by using extra powder, do indeed give a SIGNIFICANT increase in power over standard pressure in a snub nose barrel. So "questionable" is an understatement.
Great content Sam. I do enjoy your testing and passion.
Wondering if a M&P45 would provide better base support for the 45 casing compared to your stock Glock.
Thanks. Interestingly enough i'm thinking of getting my first M&P, but not a .45. Looking at the 5" 9mm, if I can get one in flat dark earth I will, if not than okay too. Figure with the 9mm fanboys out there, maybe I can hook some. The more views the more revolvers I can buy ;)
@@GunSam Very cool. I installed Apex trigger kits in mine.
Damn, I know these are close shots, but your shots are dead on.
As always, a great video!
I would like to se you firing the 44 special and/or the 45ACP with round nose or semi wadcutter bullet for comaparisment.
Either way, thank you very much for sharing!
Thanks. I was actually looking at a way to do a non expanding ammo test and thought that the Buffalo Bore .45 ACP FMJ 230 gr and .44 Special 200 gr WC might be nice. I did already do some tests with what you mentioned with Underwood 255 gr in both.
@@GunSam Great, i will be looking forward to that video!
Shooting Iced Jugs should totally take the place of Curling! If it becomes a thing measure the distance w a ruler how far it goes....from the same spot and compare...kinda instead of the board penetration...of course matters how icey bottom of box is...but interesting to add on end of video.
Awsome video. You are talking my 2 most favorite pistol cartridges. Both will defend from 2 or 4 legs. Mine is a Colt 1911 and a Ruger Blackhawk.. God bless. Love your videos.
Great video as always, when I see .45 ACP and .44 Special I am happy. I have a couple of questions as per usual. How does the average .45 compare in the loudness department to .44 Special? Also, if you had to pick between a .45 Auto and a .44 Special revolvers which one would you choose, assuming virtually everything besides caliber is the same, and why?
45 arrp revolvers are cool & more rare in double action = $$ Love em ! Blackhawk 45/45lc
Well, I essentially had those opportunities, and I chose this one in .44 Magnum as it's a well built .44, close to the same size as a .44 Special revolver, but in magnum. The only reason I would buy a .45 ACP revolver would be one of maybe two reasons; one I happen to have a bunch of .45 ACP pistols and or ammo, and two if I happened to get something in .45 Casull or similar, that was also cut for .45 ACP moon clips.
I load my 45ACP 1911 and my Charter Pit Bulls ( 2 old models and 1 new model) with 200 gr lead bullets at 800 fps. Similar power, but the recoil in the 44 is as hard as I can stand for plinking. My Charters have been 100% reliable. YMMV
I have never had a Gl smile in my 10mms , I have never shot Hyper ammo . The mid range is plenty powerful . 180 gr @ 1,175 + load in a 10mm .
Plenty powerful for what? 22 is plenty powerful for rabbits. The figures that you cite aren't legal for hunting anything larger than coyotes, in this state.
I love my 357 mag. I have some buffalo bore that develops over 800 fpe. Not more useful than 10mm for 2 legged predators, but it's great for 4 legged predators.
@@Baurakale777 if 10mm is too light get a 44 , you won't need to run it Balls To The wall ... to get the job done
@@danoneill2846 I was just pointing out that your statement is too inclusive. I run my 357 magnum at around the same energy. It's certainly plenty powerful for 2 legged predators. The Hornady XTPs in 10mm run about that speed, according to luckygunner. They got 16.9" of penetration, according to the test. it's a good round, but plenty powerful needs to be qualified.
@@Baurakale777 I have shot 10mm JHPs through thick sheet steel that stopped other rounds . Bears are not an issue for me , but I think it would also go into a bears head . A 357 or 10mm can take a deer if you place your shot right . They all have their place .
@@danoneill2846 this state has different hunting laws. 600 fpe is the legal minimum. I've seen UA-camrs harvest deer with Jukar 45 pistols that develop around 250 fpe, but that doesn't mean it would be legal here.
The world record grizzly was harvested with a break action 22lr, but you'd go to jail for trying to take anything larger than coyotes in this state.
Great 👍video shared few times. Some good info to have. First hard about charter arms haveing issues. All what I ever her is good. They just released a snub nose 41mag ? Wish offered it longer barrel like the target models.
Thanks for all the good content. Just subscribed.
Cold weather 1,000% produces lower muzzle velocities and it does it by lowering the powder burn rate in the ammunition when the cartridges themselves get cold. The more likely explanation if you see no major changes in handguns is the fact they use fast burning powders and short barrels making this phenomenons effects appear to be little to none.
Do fully kaboomed cases often cause FTE or stove pipe jams so it's questionable? Recoil just kinda pushing it for .45 use for rapid shots? I didn't think .44 special from short barrels were good, but this round, and one of my viewers said 200 gr gold dots open up fine as well. Just expensive rounds and hard to find....cause sometimes can find the .44special gp100's for not too expensive used or new even.
I really have never researched a blown case or had one to know if it would cause a malfunction.
EXCELLENT accuracy when getting the averages for the 44 special. From where I was sitting it looked as if all the shots were touching.
I was surprised with the depth each toppings traveled into the frozen jugs. I automatically wondered if each round would be adequate for best country?
I would probably use a solid bullet for bears, as their skin and bone structure is like 3 times that of man, and their ribs are liken to level 1 body armor. You should use a solid hard cast or Xtreme penetrator, or at a minimum soft point to insure penetration.
When I used to shoot every month I’d still need a good 20 or so rounds of warm up to shoot that good and it was under much better conditions.
Before watching I'm gonna say 44 wins
Overall, yes I would call it a win no matter what the numbers say.
I feel like it was a win for both ,that 45acp +p was pretty impressive to!
Another good backyard vid. I can't wait till us re-loaders can get a chance to make some "freedom seeds"! 44sp is like the 45 colt. A big slow moving slug that's hard to mushroom. If you get board, maybe you could do a vid on drilling out SWC bullets in 38sp and 44sp and see what they do. Just an idea... Stay safe..
I have never done it, but it might be interesting.
Watching you video, I was going to buy Buffalo bore plus p 0.45ACP, but seeing that she’ll bulge like that, not so sure now. Thanks for video and sharing that.
Great comparison. Thank you
Great, thanks for your time and effort. Good job!😁👍🇺🇸
That .45 looks like the Glock unsupported case head syndrome that BB warns about in .40 S&W. I used to see a lesser version of that with hotter loads in stock Glock 23. I now have an aftermarket barrel in that gun and the bulged case head problem is gone. Funny you posted this just now as I'm thinking about a .45 for woods carry. I think I'd probably go for a 1911 anyway but I wonder what BB will say about that bulged .45?
It's been over a week now since I emailed them. Still no word on it.
Which barrel did you switch to?
@@828enigma6 Switched to a KKM 4.5" Now getting about +65 fps with my 180 gr woods load and about +80 fps with my 155 gr hollowpoint. Same powder charges as before.
I've ran into that with buffalo bore on 45 acp loads. All of their +p loads are never in +p brass.
That being said I've never had an issue with case bulging in any of my 1911's or S&W M&P's.
I'm a little surprised you didn't turn your 'JUG OR NOT' apparatus so you weren't staring into the sun. Didn't seem to impede the results. Just a friendly suggestion. Always interesting content. Re-Subed. It seems Uoo-Toob has auto unsubscribed me. Fixed it, carry on.
Cheers from Alaska.
I have done that. It makes the video basically black. The way I have it is the only way to consistently have good light no matter the time of year. Here's the other direction: ua-cam.com/video/5pgV4Un6Mrg/v-deo.html And I have done all 4 directions and the way I have it now gives a consistent lighting in all 4 seasons.
I was waiting for this one
Great video and thanks for the Glock smile info. Good to know. Where do you live? Looks like my backyard in NH.
Michigan
The .44 Special was the sweetheart of the Texas Rangers for a period of time. Good record of performance. Either i wouldn't have any hesitation to use in a bad situation.
Great video
As far as temp affecting velocity goes, that was relevant and accurate 50 years ago, powders have improved a lot since then.
That bulge is why I don't like .45 ACP loaded hot. Its asking the cartridge and often the platform to do things its not good at. What's your opinion on the Barnes bullets? Do you think they are a viable alternative to the classic soft point or lead hollow point? Awesome video as always! And brrr looked cold!
Thanks. I think some rounds could benefit from a barnes bullet, but some do not. As being copper, less dense and longer, this is perfect for long cases where you want to make a low recoil high powered round with less powder bit more pressure like .44 Special, .38 Special etc. But for 9mm, .45 ACP and other short cases where space is limited, a lead bullet is better as the case being taken up by too much bullet reduced it's potential.
G.Gordon Liddy recommended the .44 special for home defense.
JUST LOOKING AT THE COST OF THE JEFF QUINN RUGER GP-100 .44 SPECIAL. NICE REVOLVER
Yeah I noticed the video on that a few days ago. Very nice.
Mine is on the way!
I miss My 44 special
Damnnn i want some of them for my ruger 1911. Them rounds are smoken.
Sam, have you ever tested the old Blazer 44 special JHP round? The old flying ashtray.
Great comparison...maybe a follow up comparing Ruger 44 gap to their 44mag for size and 44special comparison or maybe a 45acp revolver comparison
Side note, I’ve got my son building a version of the “Jug or Not” here...kudos!
Thanks. What's funny is that while I envisioned my box and built it 100% on my own ideas, after the fact I found out that it was already a thing called a Fackler box, and essentially identical as it was designed to hold water jugs. I guess this Fackler guy was also the pioneer who then helped develop ballistics gel and it's use.
Good as alwayse. Try testing sellier&bellot or prvi partizan in 44 mag if you can find amunition. Thanks
44 spl is definitely one of my favorites.
10mm & 44 ( 429 ) seem to be in the sweet spot VS slower 45's bullets . The slower the 45 is the better the 44 & 10mm do with the same energy . NO DIS to 45 cal , I think when one is a little short of 12" , in most cases , the target would be stopped . The front area of the bullet is the sweet spot & expansion is not needed .
I was thinking last night about .45 auto for people that say 10mm is perfect for woods carry. I mean, i'm not really giving any serious opinion or expert knowledge when I have to ask....if 10mm is .40 cal and hard cast are usually 700 ft lbs, and .45+P is .45 cal hard cast and usually 550 ft lbs....is there really any significant difference in what it would do against a brown bear? I honestly would not know, but a lot of people will say the 10mm is enough and the .45 is not, so it just gives me bear food for thought.
not good when a 45acp gets a bulge at the feed ramp when fired! does the brass have any webbing to it at all?
great group on the 45!!
good group on the 44 too!
the 45 bulging is a not necessarily max load but unsupported barrel which can cause cause nasty blow out. what I am going to say will make some people mad but the truth. just because a person spends high bucks and quality made it doesn’t mean you can just shoot any hot load with out properly testing . I don’t recommend shooting Buffalo bore semi automatic ammunition that’s rated plus p or above in chamber pressure with a unsupported barrel. even Buffalo bore in there information below the ammo tells you so. I only have two 45 acp rated plus p. I sadly shoot my 45 super reloads in both pistols for self defense and hunting outherwise limited use . Taurus model pt 845 and hi point 45 acp . no pressure signs, no bulging brass , slightly flattened primers . works flawlessly in both pistols. the thing is your glock down the road can give serious trouble with that ammunition shot with unsupported barrel and I wouldn’t shoot it with out a supported barrel. It was another great video, and honest testing which I appreciate. I wouldn’t have expected the bullets to hold together on the ice jugs but wow , they sure did . Nana and papa aka the hunter wishing you well.
Love your vids - and don’t usually like to be that guy that just comments negatives (in all fairness, this is one of the first times I’ve read through UA-cam comments on a gun vid.... I see why people give so many disclaimers now.)
Just wanted to say - there are some variations in handgun ammo based on temp and powder. I haven’t noticed it in cool weather so much. Mostly on hot days (and yes, leaving carts in direct sunlight absolutely can affect pressure) - but, depending on powder choice, I have seen variations to the point I’ve altered a few hunting sidearm loads because of it. Variations are usually minute, but for my uses (primarily hog), that tiny bit has shown up on paper.
I guess what I’m saying is: temp may not matter to most handgun purposes, but yes, there are some variations with certain powders. Probably not enough to mention for most people. But, it does exist.
I did a study where I took my 5 shot averages in July-ish VS 5 shot averages from same box of ammo in same gun in January-ish, about 75 degree average VS about 30 degree average. Out of maybe 10-12 types of ammo, I think it was like 9 or 10 that shot faster in the colder weather. I am no expert on why this is, but those are the numbers I got.
You should do ballistic testing with one of the .410 revolvers
From what I'm told, the new Charter Arms they began producing recently can take +P ammo..
Thinking of getting a 1911 soon. Looking at ammo on GB. The prices are not bad. Not sure what would be the best defensive ammo for it.
I found through testing that the 230 gr Gold Dot, even at 780 FPS was as good as all other defensive ammo. Not bad for the low power and low recoil obviously.
Wow. Thanks
That bulge would be a deal breaker for me. I always cringe when I see people shooting 45acp +P out of vintage 1911’s. It’s like putting a 100 year old grandmother on roller skates down an icy hill...
You were so close to having a kaboom in that .45. My glock 40 is loaded to higher pressures and doesn't do that. What barrel is in your glock?
it's the barrel that comes in the Glock 41, basically the same barrel as the G21 but a tad longer.
@@GunSam That Buffalo Bore is overpressure for an unsupported chamber. It almost blew out.
I'll take my Super Blackhawk to the range next week and see how much better 44spl is over the 44mag. I know I don't want to shoot 44mag in a handgun again. I'll leave that for my Henry levergun.
Shot my SBH with 44spl today. It is alot more controllable. Most rounds stayed in the center of the silhouette target. They were all over the target with 44mag.
Thx for the info
If it were me I would only shoot that 45 hot ammo with full case support. So not a glock, preferably a revolver.
Lone wolf, Kkm, or storm lake barrel.
One drawback of the special over the mag is availability even in normal times, so the pricetag tends to be higher. Sometimes much higher. It's a good round, it just needs to be not as expensive as a round with a while more power in the same caliber.
it's one of those backburner rounds that get produced like once a year by normal companies rather than a few times a year like .38 Special or never ending production like 9mm. If you could time it what time of year each company makes .44 Special that would be nice, but they don't let you know lol.
@@GunSam it's like 8mm or 30-40 krag
I'd say warm is an understatement on that 45 load. Could have been a one round over charged fluke in a box of 20, or just complete negligence on their loading of this round altogether. Until you check more casings its hard to say. For the velocities its running with bullet weight in comes real close to low-mid range 10mm territory. Rowdy round. They both are. Has a charter arms bulldog years ago. Love the cartarige, love the gun. Just very poorly made and it's one of those you almost love more than you should because of what it is and what it offers for size.
There is an Underwood round I tested that was much hotter than this, and I didn't happen to find any bulged brass though. I think it was upper 600's for energy, but Underwood uses some sort of newer nickel plating process that is superior to others so maybe this kept it from bulging.
@@GunSam here of lately on all aspects of everything we deal with, I've found 45 super brass is easier to come by. I just load what I do, document the box, and use a metallic sharpie to color coat the primer. That should handle any pressure. And I'm not loading anything astronomical. Just badass for what it is . Or what not.