LG Chem battery pack degradation test
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Measuring the degradation (health / remaining capacity) of a 6.5 years old Li-ion LG Chem battery pack. It's 25.55V 2000mAh 51.1Wh 7S battery pack that was used in a Rowenta 25.2V cordless vacuum cleaner. It contains 7 18650 cells marked LGEAMF11865.
The vacuum cleaner video:
• Dumpster Li-ion vacuum...
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Higher consumption of fan when you measured in last video was because of you had filter out. There was no obstacle for air and volume flow of air was higher than it was designed for.
But wouldn't less restrictions equal a lower current draw giving more run time?
@@peetbronkhorst5473 no. Higher air flow = higher moment from impeller to motor (need to move more mass per second) = more current. It is the same with centrifugal pumps, where is specified minimal pressure on output, or you would overload motor. It would be opposite on volumetric pumps, like a gear pump for hydraulics.
The cells are still good to use, nice find. Also the small motor, screws, connectors, fuse, some short hook up wire, LEDs and a 18650 battery holder, perhaps switches and balance charging board could be reused. Not to forget the wrong power supply. Thanks for continuing the autopsy and the test results of the batteries from 2017.
Thanks for the follow-up. I have not recovered tons of cells, but in my experience 18650's are generally still good even 15 years or more since manufacture and after sitting unmaintained for years (i.e. in a laptop). So long as the protection circuit was working, the cells are generally fine and will still have most of their original capacity.
TY just what i was wondering . I am looking after my ebike batteries but i wondered if i was wasting my time if there was age degradation .
I used to recover cells from laptop batteries quite a lot (before eBay banned the sale of 18650s) and most were definitely not in as good condition as these. Surprised at how well these kept their capacity: they must not have been used much.
Pretty much my own observations. I've seen some rarely maintained radio batteries (some different cell standard) and they didn't last half as long as drill or laptop batteries using 18650 cells. Control circuits are a different topic, while some of the drill battery cells were probably still good, due to some weird counter reaching EOL in the ic, they couldn't be properly charged, rendering the entire pack useless. Talk about planned obsolescence
@@TheSpotify95when did ebay ban sales of 18650s? I still see loads of them on there
Whilst those cells may have most of the original rated capacity, this is measured at only 500mA of current. What REALLY matters is how well the cells perform under the load that your application demands.
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For example I recently harvested used LG cells from a Dyson V8 vac. They measure about 1850mAh at 1A which might appear like they are "almost new".
However when pulling 15-20A that the Vac needs, the tired cells have about 40% the original capacity in Watt Hours. The vac only lasts a few minutes on high!
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Those INR cells might be OK for some low current array, but are useless for their original application (hence discarded by my GF).
Also the motor current would be much lower if there were filter / cyclone separator and hoses and stuff restricting the air flow. In free air the impeler basically gets never ending supply of air and the motor has to constantly spin it up and acelerate it. With more air flow restrictions consumtion would go down.
You got that backwards. The more restriction, the more load, the more current, the shorter live.
@@johncoops6897 nope. No load on a centrifugal fan is when there is no airflow across it, that's why the noise pitch goes up when you block the inlet. Contrary to intuition the motor is LESS stressed in this condition despite sounding like it's being damaged. The only limitation is heat dissipation as most centrifugal fans are air-over cooled so the motor eventually overheats from lack of cooling, not an inlet restriction.
@@johncoops6897 Think about it. With restricted air flow RPM of impeller shoots up why? Restricted air flow means less load. I tried it myself on impeller I build myself for cleaning PC from dust. I just use it not for suction but for shooting air forward. With no restrictions on airflow the RPM goes down and load up. Cause motor has to constantly accelerate new and new air up. If you do not believe me watch some videos from Marius Hornberger or woodgears from Matias wandel. They build and explained it countless times in their videos. When they build dust collectors for they's workshops.
@@johncoops6897 The air for a fan is the same as wood for the saw. If there is no wood on saw. Sawblade goes on max RPM and no load. Like a fan in vacuum. But when cutting wood the sawblade RPM goes down and motor struggles you could even stop it from turning = stalled. That is a fan with endless air supply. You could even stall it too with hi density gas = liquid. Maybe someon here would be able to explain it better.
@@josifvissarionovich5320you are wrong in this case obstruction to air flow the motor has les air to pump so current is lower, the opposite of volumetric pumps where obstructions to flow would bog down the motor and cause higher current. Haven't you ever blocked a Vacuum cleaner and heard it speed up as it has no through put ???
Those cells are surprisingly good. I have disassembled many old Notebook batteries to get cells. Those from the vacuum cleaner (and power tools) have much higher discharge currents than notebook cells. 1800 mAh in those old cells is pretty good if you ask me. Especially since they were for free.
I would guess notebooks and even cell phones are in fact harder on the batteries
- because the cell/cells get charged to higher voltage (4.35 V instead of the typical 4.2 V for 18650 cells. The same as the secondary protection here - but that one is most likely only meant for it to not be a fire hazard, if the primary voltage regulation fails. The primary regulation is probably at 4.2 V per cell) and they also often get left and or used with the power supply ("wall adapter") connected, which keeps the battery charged up to that voltage for extended periods.
They also often get hot and heats the battery indirectly, even if the current draw is so low that there is not much heating from the internal resistance of the battery.
The laptop I have now has a "80% charge limit" that I have activated. It's quite new yet - but hopefully, that will prevent it from having like 50% degradation in just 2-3 years, like the previous ones I have had.
Anyway - the cells in the video still seem very good at 93% after 6.5 years and also that the degradation is even - not one or a few cells that's really bad - which often the case in battery packs like this
During vacuming, motor should draw less current
Motor has a load and speed depending on the volume of air passing through the turbine. Current can drop to more than half if no air is passing through, they probably calculate larger obstructions such as the filter and nozzle.
Rating:
Brand: LG
Model: LGEAMF11865 (ICR18650MF1)
Capacity: 2150mAh Rated
Voltage: 3.65V Nominal
Charging: 4.20V Maximum
1075mA Standard
2150mA Maximum
Discharging: 2.75V Cutoff
430mA Standard
10000mA Maximum
Imagine: Mary Barra had them better cells. Then her Bolt's would not have gone up in smoke.
@@LawpickingLocksmith ????🧐
@@G1ZQCArtwork She is the useless chick trying to run GM. All their Chevy Bolts had to be recalled because of LG-chem batteries.
Bloody hell, these cells can take up to 10 Amps! No wonder why they are used in high drain appliances such as vacuums!
I double checked, the data sheet says 10A max. I imagine this is for short bursts only. This is surprisingly common for these cells, but I would not like to do it too often.@@TheSpotify95
I measurement of the internal resistance of the cells would have been interesting - since it is also degrading over time.
I agree!!!
Depends if Diode has a battery resistance meter that he can use?
@@TheSpotify95 All you need is a multimeter and a little math.
Nice vid. Recovering old cells is always fun. Just last week I was able to repair the battery pack for my cordless drill with a salvaged cell from a laptop battery. Saved me quite some money.
But laptop batteries are rated for 2 or 4Amps per cell and tool cells are rated for 15-25A per cell.
If you block the fan air flow the power goes way down, if you let it spin in free air it gets overloaded and might burn out.
When people make large 1 or 3 phase fans and they draw too much current they just choke down the intake so it gets less air, the power goes down and the fan spins up in rpm also.
Many 18650 cell data sheets spec out capacity tested as 4.2V to 2.7V some even state down to 2.5V. I dont like going below 2.7V myself typically and most tool batteries etc. shut off at around 3V like you showed here for protection. The capacity in these cells may be closer to 100% considering the factory test standard used that's excellent!
Interesting!
Those cells seem quite good. Less degradation than I expected after 6.5 years.
LG Chem is a great brand for quality lithium cells. Such as Samsung, Panasonic and Sony-Murata. I'd personally stay away from chinese brands.
The text editing is fantastic . Thankyou , the question answered instantly ! I wonder if there ever will be affordable circuitry that makes a low performing battery in a pack less problematic .
That's like hoping for a easy solution to a low performing member of a sports team.
LG and Panasonic always under rate their batteries. The number shown on the data sheet is the "minimal guarantied capacity".
Still quite good cells after 6,5 years use and still good balanced. I would expect them to be worse after that time, of corse it highly depends on the use (we don't know).
In vakuum mode curent of motor is less
A vacuum cleaner motor will draw the most under no load condition. Which is weird. But that's because it is spinning the fastest then. When it is "working" the current is less. Or that's what I've heard a lot. Could be something to test out.
If you think of "no load" as in "vacuuming free air" you are right about the consumption
But it spins slower under that condition
If you restrict the flow of air (by actually vacuuming something) there is less air to interact with the blades of the impeller, so the motor spins faster due to less resistance. But it also draws less current in that case. So the more you "use" your vacuum, the less current it draws
Stop the flow of air by blocking the hose, and the speed goes up as the motor is loaded less. Because it is running in its own vacuum then.
@@pizzablender yes and the current draw goes down. But it isn't what someone would logically expect. You'd think while it was, "working" it'd be working harder then. At least I always did until I learned otherwise. He tested the motor in open air. Which would be it's highest current draw too.
We could say that it may have. Been used 1 per week, giving it about 340 cycles.
The 10% drop would be about right for this as it's usually about 22% on 1000 cycles. These are usually short or low cycled cells. I hear Dyson vac batteries are good cells..
Nice
I have some Bosch 12V Powertool batterys from 2017 that are now starting to show signs of degradation, they charge unusually fast so the yhave lost capacity and the voltage drop under load seems noticeable now. Usually with thew very high discharge cells in tool batterys there is barely any voltage drop.
Thats 7 years of use, I call that an acceptable lifespan and powertool batterys arent treated very gently all they get is high discharge currents in short bursts and fast charging.
I have now switched to Makita 18V. More affordable then Bosch and more powerful. Also higher quality tools for the same price, Bosch is only really worth it when you go for the 18V brushless tools.
Lets see how long the Makita 18V 4.0Ah packs I have last. They are a 2x5 cell config so 2 cells in parallel and 5 in series. Having two cells in parallel and a total of 18V should result in less strain on the individual cells under load so I expect there to not be as much of a noticeable power drop when the cells age.
What the world needs the most right now is a cheap mass produced powerful battery technology that degrades very slowly and is easy to recycle and made from readily available resources.
It would solve a huge problem for all of us.
Great stuff, thank you for sharing. No I wish I would have saved the old 18750's from my old laptop battery packs.
Salvaging and reviving batteries is fun, especially when they come from laptops where the circuitry just decided "Nope, I'm dead, no charge for you!", and yet, the cells test as perfect, they're just "old", made myself a 12v battery pack out of 3x such laptop batteries which works perfectly fine despite the laptops complaining they were NFG...
Nice, thank you! And good to know and to see!
Can you make a video about this swiching mode power suplly please
( wx-dc12003 )
Thank you very much ❤
Car fuses are color-coded.
Reds are 10A
Yellows are 20A
I forgot the rest.
Not bad for a free battery 🙂🔋
Where is your cat?
Li ion goes down to 2.8v so cells are likely still all 2000mah, lg qaulity
Ďakujem za video, tie akumulátory sú ešte v dosť dobrom stave, určite sa nájde nejaké využitie, kde ich uplatníš :)
rica ederim senden acaba infinix Note 30'un şarj aleti 45 voltu açıp söküp içini bize inceleyebilir misin Çok merak ediyorum🙏🙏🙏👀
Danke!
Thanks!
Lot of work to test such series of cells.
Is there a way to figure out the current capability?
How much current can be pulled out of such old cells?
And how much current for charge?
Maybe a continue with the motor?
How much can the current be reduced.. by for example cleaning and lubricate? XD
Is this motor a good type for use as generator? Real use, not freeenergy...
Nice video
Now what are you going to use the batteries for?
Apple should learn something from this batteries
Lets test blowing fuse for nothing
Thx DGW! God bless you, maybee you read 👉John. 17 : 22..... ☺🙏
Someone give me a free cordless vacuum. It didn’t work. It wouldn’t charge either. When I took it apart, it didn’t have 18650 cells. Inside there were 20 AA Nihm batteries. Obviously, one cell had shorted or gone bad. But the problem was that cells were all incased in hot melt glue!
Isopropyl alcohol would get them apart. It's excellent for removing hot melt glue, it practicaly falls off.
@@ProdigalPorcupine Thanks for the tip!🙏
The 7 IC chips appear to be S-8209B, battery protection/balancing chips
There is no balancing here. Just protection.
@@johncoops6897 the S-8209B also balances, no way you have cells within 25 mV without balancing or even have a pack last that long anyways.
@@DooMMasteR - LOL, too little knowledge can be dangerous.
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First, a S-8209B doesn't really "balance" anything. It simply "normalizes" cell voltages, and only during charging, and only providing suitably large Mosfets and Discharge Resistors are installed.
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During charging, if it senses that it's particular cell is already fully charged, it can enable a shunt to "bypass" that cell while other cells charge further.
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That process can only work if the "bypass" components can dissipate more current than the series charger is supplying at that time. On THIS PCB, there are no such components installed.
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The S-8209 or any other kind of simple "single cell" chip cannot balance _between_ cells because it only connects to one cell and has no way of knowing what the others might be doing.
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Anyway, the video says it's using S-8215 chips. Irrespective of what chip is used, just because a datasheet says "balancing" does NOT mean that it really does that.
... need to put brain in gear before opening mouth 😉
@@johncoops6897no, it also works with a lot less current, as the resistor "burns" additional energy to the part that still charges the cell.
Also that's literally what passive balancing is, these circuits just burn a little energy, they are not supposed to support fast charging or anything so even 25 mA or 50 mA of balancing current are just fine.
@@DooMMasteR - whilst that may sometimes be true.... as I said before, there is no balancing being done here on this PCB.
PS. those resistors you mention... They ain't there either.
nice find man, what you going to do with those cells?
Ci pulisce casa 😂😂
Would be so interesting to look at the ESR of the cells. Just my personal experience is that first the ESR ist getting higher and higher when the battery degrades. So old cells are often still good for years in low drain situation while they are more or less useless in high drain applications like powertools. Here 5 sells in parallel from Makita batteries separated out due to age, wear and tear are still good in my USB power bank as the current for each cell is much lower than my circular saw or hammer dill...
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Even in high power, top shelf equipment with +500$ battery packs you might not find a circuit for balancing which is an absolute shame. Individual cells degrade differently and therefore NEED balancing.
I don't see the common 42ohm 1206 SMD resistor for balancing here for the standard 100mA balance current. I could be wrong but you also could be lucky here
Lowest charging time = longer life battery
Several people are commenting that the fan motor would pull less power when airflow is restricted.
While this is true for centrifugal fans, this one looks more like some kind of hybrid design, I'm quite skeptical if it displays the same properties as a pure centrifugal one.
The fan is a closed impeller, it's a fairly standard design, the casing has diffusion vanes to spread the discharge air evenly instead of a single ducted discharge like in volute configurations.
original lg cells are super fine
👍👍👍
Nice.
That's why I love to reuse 18650s from old battery packs, a lot of them are still more than good!
Nice experiment and good to see that the cells kept a lot of their capacity! I guess it depends on how the cells are treated, such as number of charge cycles and how much the cells are hammered (current, discharge percent) during use. Thankfully this battery pack survived well.
Back when i used to disassemble laptop battery packs, they rarely came out as good as this. And yes, in series, the weakest cell limits the entire battery pack.
I have bought a small cheap board from aliexpress that test 18650's automatically for 1 to 9 charge-discharge cycles. It charges using usb-c 1A and discharge thru 2x 8R 10W resistors in parallel for a total of 4 ohm (roughly 1.1~0.7A), the top voltage is fixed to 4.20V but the bottom voltage is adjustable from 2.5v to 3.5v. Very clever it works standalone and doesn't need supervision, but bad that after like 5 cycles, it only shows the capacity from the last cycle, which is still ok, because it's the most reliable value after all. When I recycle battery packs from laptops, i put the cells into it, set to 3-5cycles and let it do it's job, it generally takes about 8-12h hours to finish all the cycles on a good (1500-2000mAh) cell.
Hi what is the board called? It sounds very useful, as long as its not too expensive for me
Would be an incredibly useful comment if you had mentioned any clue regarding how to find this board. Without this, the comment is just infuriating.
hi
if i want to use a 1 ohm shunt resistor instead of 0.24 ohm one
what changes need to be done in the program?
the 0.24 ohm is really hard to find
and for the op amp.if i use tl081 is the circuit still works?
thank🙏🏻
I don't know what circuit you're talking about. If your circuit design requires a 0.24 ohm resistor but you only have 1 ohm resistors then use four in parallel. The resulting 0.25 ohms is only 5% off.
@@eDoc2020I'm talking about the battery tester circuit
the 0.24 ohm resistor is a shunt resistor
so i can't simply use a 0.25 ohm one(i think)
the masurment will not be accurate
@@arminkiaei97 The circuit has a calibration potentiometer so the slight difference can be accommodated. If you still want it to be perfect put 6 ohms in parallel with the .25 ohms to bring it exactly to 0.24. Or a 6.8 ohm parallel resistor would give about .241 ohms. That's only half a percent off which is probably better than the tolerance of your resistors.
For the op-amp you need a model which works properly when the input voltages are near the negative rail. I do not believe the TL081 meets this requirement. Any "rail-to-rail" op-amp should be compatible.
@@eDoc2020 thank you so much for your help.
so i use two resistors in series or parallel to get the best result.
@@arminkiaei97 You'd be using five resistors in parallel: 4x 1 ohm 1/2 watt and 1x 6.8 ohm.
high power lipo deviced tend to fail due to the batteries developing a high ESR much sooner than the batteries actually loosing capacity. Thats why many recycle such cells for lower power draw devices. You can often go to the e-bike shops and buy the degraded cells for much cheaper with between 70-95% of the original capacity. The only difference is that instead of being able to draw 15A from a single cell you might only be able to draw 2-4A, which if you dont mind putting more cells in parallel its not such a big deal (say a powerbank or an rc car)
Grazie.
LG it's so bad battery