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Let me help you all understand what Mr. Elijah was saying.. what he was saying was, without being allusive, hoping to be as clear and transparent as possible, so that nobody can say otherwise and that everyone can understand the answer, so as to make as little confusion needed, in order that all people can feel included and comfortable, wanting to be open and honest about everything in my humble opinion I totally forgot what I was going to say...
Brilliant! That is to say, clever…and insightful! Articulate and edifying, yet not vague…clarifying even, so that all can discern the gist of the commentary, and having had their eyes opened, be able to intelligently dialogue on the parsing of the original statement…that is to say…
That is the sound of a man who is anticipating the many ways that certain viewers will try pull apart or find fault with anything he is saying. This particular thread seems to be justifying that approach.
The Greatest Man in history is Jesus. He had no servants, yet they called Him Master. He had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. He had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today, He had no wife, yet He's the Bridegroom, I love you Jesus with all my heart, strength and soul.
I assumed that the purpose of "cultish" was to take falsehood head on. The hosts could have asked much more specific questions and reason through them: 1. Gold dust 2. What did Bill mean that Jesus could not heal, etc? 3. Thier affiliation with Todd Bentley Many more questions. Cultish, kindly consider in helping me understand your approach in this episode.
Do you have a problem with the things Ezekiel wrote about in his encounters with God? What about John in Revelation? Is God limited to only doing the particular strange things recorded in the Bible, or is He allowed to do things that He didn't include within its pages?
@kristinberry3915 - I realize sometimes people fake the gold dust. I don't know about the feathers, but I have seen people dump a bag of gold glitter on the ground at a conference. It wasn't at Bethel, though, and it wasn't the people putting on the conference who did it: it was attendees with a twisted sense of humor. It was very frustrating to me, because I had seen and experienced legitimate, supernatural gold dust appearing at a previous conference put on by the same ministry. I know the real thing happened, but anyone whose first exposure to "gold dust" was that glitter might get very jaded and assume it's all fraudulent. It really does happen supernaturally, though. I also know someone who has had feathers appear to him multiple times, so that can be very real, too. The existence of counterfeit hundred dollar bills doesn't mean there are no real ones - it just means some people lack scruples. The leadership at Bethel is full of integrity, though, and I'm confident they aren't faking anything.
It would be great to see Bill Johnson personally talk with Jeff Durbin. I truly believe it would be edifying to the body of Christ and help bring some clarity to the Church. I suggest a 3 hour dialogue, Haha.
Strong title, weak interview. “Is Bethel a Cult” would’ve been my opening question. What’s with the clickbait, Cultish? Weak... disappointing. Painfully disorganized and unclear conversation. Imagine Apostle Paul conducting this interview?!
Sometimes you don’t want to just jump into the topic. You want to give your opposition enough rope to either prove their validity or to hang themself with.
I agree. At some point you have to get to the point. This is a very hard video to watch because over and over the host would begin a thought or question, then in mid sentence switch to another thought and not finish it, then try to explain what he is thinking, then get back on track only to get diverted in mid sentence again. This type of “question” would go on for several minutes only to finally come to a conclusion. Somewhere in the rambling the question would eventually get asked but by then I’m so frustrated by the journey of it all that the question looses it’s intended purpose. It’s fine to set up a question with a thought process on how you have come to ask the question, but be succinct. Meandering and jumping thought trails in mid-sentence all the time is frustrating and confusing. Normally I really like Apologia videos and interviews, but this one was hard to get through. Is Bethel a cult? Define what a cult is, demonstrate how Bethel fits that definition, and have your guest defend his position that it is not a cult. Then you can get into the nuts and bolts of supporting your argument that it is. Make the questions clear and succinct. And the questions should be thought out in advance and written down. Some latitude can be allowed for the occasional spontaneous question, but even then keep to the pace. I happen to believe Bethel is a cult that teaches gross heresies. I was hoping to see if my assessment is correct or if I am being too harsh. This discussion video does nothing to answer my question. American Gospel is a severe treatment of Bethel and other NAR churches and teachers. Have your guest address what is in that movie.
There's mispeaking, and then there's writing a book years ago with incredible doctrine flaws and leaving it out there for the world. Thanks for the video.
He makes it clear in the very quote from When Heaven Invades Earth that Jesus was 100% God while living with the limitations of a man filled with and anointed by the Holy Spirit. They are self-imposed limitations, but they are real. There is a reason He said "the Son can do nothing without the Father."
I know a pastor who held to a view that, though by no means heretical, was untrue. And he even wrote a book on it. Today it’s out of print, he publicly disowns it and there’s clarity as to where he is today. I think that’s the most healthy model to take. We’re not infallible, but we do have a responsibility to call it out and correct ourselves for the sake of the local body and the ‘big C’ Catholic Church.
I know the Apologia guys are being respectful to the lone guy that decided to be the punching bag for all of us that disagree with Bill Johnson, but along with respect there could've been direct questions and expect and look for direct answers
SO so much danced around or left unsaid - I think, perhaps, because you're face to face and dont want to be too 'heavy handed'. But SO much missed. This was a really missed opportunity. I truly appreciate you guys and appreciate all this with Cultish. I truly wish I had more time to touch base on this episode specifically. Maybe, Lord willing, I can. I'd sit and watch it again as the hosts and address many of the 'stepped over' and missed opportunities for catching major issues... Especially when concerning what he said about healings - the term he used that made it sound as though 'this is the good news. This is the message. This is the reason..'
Very respectfully, Johnson cannot have it both ways. If he truly "misspoke" and "miswrote", why does he continue to say it? Mr. Elijah does not seem to understand how crucial God takes Truth and correct theology. Also, he says that he listens to others that are not totally correct and finds truths in them. This is dangerous territory regarding Scripture.
All truth is God's truth. I agree with what Elijah is saying, that you can find truth and some helpful ideas in Richard Dawkins' writings, etc. However, where he totally missed the point, and what Jeremiah and Andrew were trying to draw out is that there is a huge difference between a secular thinker/scientist/politician and a Christian leader/pastor when it comes to speaking about truth. People do not seek out an unredeemed person for spiritual truth. People do seek out Christian leaders for spiritual truth. So we one such leader repeatedly speaks heresy, and does not attempt to publicly correct that heresy, that is the problem. It's a confusion of categories.
Not “just a paragraph”. It is the most crucial and central doctrine of the nature and deity of Jesus vs the Anti Christ spirit. With Denying the Jesus of the Godhead you are no longer in the body of Christ. Pick your side
That was a very long interview for almost none of my questions to be answered. The only thing I got out of that is "yes we believe in the gospel." What was missing was the explanation of why Bethel openly takes part in New Age and occult practices such as black magick. There's just so many that they do it can't be a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding". I don't doubt that this man has good intentions and seems passionate about helping men get out of their porn addiction. But he might be uninformed or misinformed on some of the biggest red flags at Bethel. He might even understand the true gospel. But some of the top dog leaders obviously don't, and if they do, it's obvious that they don't think it's that important. If this guy is as genuine and sincere as he seems, I think he should resign and find a job elsewhere.
my sister and her husband have been with Bethel for many years. They are ex drug addicts/alcoholics and are desperately seeking a "feeling" and so the high they ride now is frenzied "worship" services and such. The antichrist and false prophet will focus on signs and wonders as well. People want emotional highs. That's one of the draws for my sister and her husband. They want excitement.
What did Paul have on the road to Damascus? He had already heard Stephen preaching when he was martyred, but yet that left him unmoved and approving of Stephen's death. His murder, really.
Please be consistent and dont stick up for Bethel now ... just because he is a nice guy does not give him a pass - IF YOU PREACH ANOTHER JESUS YOU PREACH ANOTHER GOSPEL - they have a slew of prophecies that were shown to be false and that means they are false prophets, so says the Lord!
There is a time for all things. Mr. Stephens came in good faith and they were kind and gentle with him. He clearly was not going to repent, but look at the good done by this interview. Everyone watching can see that they are in unrepentance and promotion of heresy.
of course bill Johnson affirmed the hypostatic union, he knows thats the right answer. thats how decievers slip in unnoticed, they say the right things and once theyre in, they teach something else
There ya go, that's exactly right. The serpent in Genesis even technically deceived Eve with truth when you carefully examine the words. Heretics know how to speak truth and slip in destructive heresies.
I had to leave a Bethel-loving Church here in the UK because the pastor preached that Johnson's views (whilst not particularly orthodox) were, "Within the bounds of Chalcedon." They aren't within the bounds of Chalcedon at all!!! His book "When Heaven Invades Earth" is where Johnson stands on Christology to this day. He hasn't changed his views at all. It seems he even still thinks that what he says is Biblical...and that is extremely scary.
google; Charles Fox Parham and read how the Pentecostal movement started. He was also rumoured to be a con man, who was allegdly also arrested for sodomy. He trained William J. Seymour
Ultimately setting up false converts by them not hearing the true Gospel. It's just not what Christ commanded us to do or say therefore it is not loving or biblical. If you love your neighbor you tell him or her the truth. You are correct, it's false teaching.
@NorskDubster Dude if God wanted everyone healed it would be done. You obviously do not believe in the sovereignty of God over His creation. If you read 1 Corinthians starting around verse 18 Paul begins to explain to the members of the Church of Corinth that they are all needed as members of one body making up the body of Christ. He then goes on to explain the order of the members at verse 28.... first Apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping and various tounges. Now the important part.. Paul says: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets ? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. The "more excellent way" than the miraculous he shows us is love. This is what he began to teach about in the following verses. Not all members were meant to perform miracles the Apostles were because we see it written in scripture that they did . The verse you were quoting from in Matthew 10:8 was Jesus speaking directly and specifically to the Apostles, sending them out to proclaim the Gospel as well as perform miracles. The reason we know Jesus was talking to the Apostles is because in the beginning of chapter 11 it says "When Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities." Notice He was instructing HIS twelve disciples. Again, if Jesus wanted everyone healed it would be done and we would not need doctors on this earth. He could absolutely make that happen if it was His will. He is in control.
@NorskDubster Dude This statement doesn't jive with Paul not getting healed from the thorn in his side. I would need to see biblical scripture where it teaches that a commandment is to heal. We are to reach those for Christ, first and foremost. That is our directive.
Bethel is full of deception and Bill Johnson is a wolf!!! People please wake up!!!!!!!!!!! Bethel run for your lives from Bill and that fake church!!!! Repent add bd come out from amongst them!!!!!!!!
@@disciplesoftheking Pentecostalism - where you are looked down at if you don't speak in ''tongues'' The movement which is about mimicing the sinners who party with loud music and chaotic babbling.
It is good to have done the interview; however, it didn't highlight the exposure to many of the falsehoods Miss Davis presented, which even a babe in Christ could identify as wrong. This interview does however show a willingness to ask someone from their staff directly. In the long run; it is beneficial. It actually solidifies the warning to stay clear of these teachings!! It actually shows what needs to be seen. They that "follow" Mr. Johnson's lead are willing to allow him to speak ambiguous statements that align to mystery esoteric schools of thought and then back track when approached by the discerning Christian (which I believe they would label that as a religious spirit). Sounds much like the character of the serpent in Gen 3. Christ NEVER mixed truth w/ error, never misled, was always direct!
I love this podcast. I have one complaint, Jeremiah is very hard to listen to. He has a tendency to get off topic, not finish a thought before switching subjects. It's all over the place. Am I the only one??? Overall he's great I just wish someone would point it out to him.
Eli S you are not alone!! I do appreciate the work he’s attempting to accomplish but it’s all so fragmented... I would want the critique if it were me. Most people need notes to be concise, and he seems to be someone who could benefit from more preparation and a script of some kind.
compared to prior Cultish episodes/podcasts that addressed Bethel, this one felt muted. The prior guests were very outspoken about Bethel's "new age" practices and language and worship. I heard Elijah say a lot of good things but this interview never got to the issues that divide Bethel from Biblical doctrine. I appreciate and have enjoyed all the prior Cultish episodes (especially Steven Bancarz, that introduced me to the rest of Cultish). I sincerely hope no one walks away from this most recent interview (3 part podcast with Elijah) and considers Bethel a legitimate option as a Biblical church. There is much more to discuss and this last interview fell short. Thanks for all you are doing Cultish, I don't expect perfection but I hope you follow this up with something stronger. God Bless.
Completely agree they really took it way too easy on the garbage. Even worse, sure seem Elijah the guy from Bethel didn't really grasp or comprehend where the errors are with what was being discussed.....
Mavtech7 Jesus was a man anointed by God the Father( the only true God) and it was the Father in Christ who did the works. Jn14:10 Ac2:22 Ac10:38 The Son can not be doing anything of Himself. Jn5:19. I cannot do anything of Mtself. Jn5:30 God saved Him out of death. Heb5:7 lets believe what scripture actually teaches. Not what orthodoxy thinks it says! We don't need orthodoxy to be saved. We are saved through repenting and believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. Mt16:16 Jn20:31 Jesus clearly taught He is the SON of God. Jn10:36 Jn19:7 Jn11:27 Jesus is not the living God. Jesus has a God. 1Cor15:24,27,28 Jesus will be subject to His Deity forever.
@@keithfuson7694 Reading your comments, forgive me if i'm not reading it correctly, sure seems you are saying Christ is not God and thus could do nothing...? John 10:18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." And before you jump all over "received from My Father" would assert that is only the command to do so, the ability was and is still completely within Himself as He/Christ is equal to (Phil 2:5-11) and fully God Act 20:28... Just seems you are really trying the thread a very file thread to say Christ is not God...
I was expecting a discussion with more to and fro. Not a never ending monologue where the question was completely lost. Did the host really do enough critical evaluation and questioning. Overall it was a very disappointing discussion.
It seems to me the interviewer is saying the right things, but the representative from Bethel seems to be strictly defending Bill Johnson. Cultish is asking Bill Johnson to clarify his theology, but this teacher from Bethel doesn’t seem to think that’s necessary. He says people need to ask Bill Johnson themselves, but Bethel is reaching thousands of people worldwide, they can’t all fly out to Bethel and setup a coffee date with Bill Johnson. There’s more than just ‘misspeaking’ here. Bill Johnson seems to be consistently teaching problematic theology. I am more disappointed with this teacher from Bethel than the one asking the questions.
tommy after watching the full interview, I agree with you. There seemed to be a lot of dodging on both sides instead coming right out with what needed to be said.
The classic move in an interview is to ask to “lets go back a bit” to avoid the question. That way nothing can be said and it sounds like an answer. TBH it’s a pet hate because it’s a cope out. Politicians are brilliant at it.
I appreciate the generosity of this dialogue. Ideas and practices were challenged and no one was attacked. Even somewhat rational explanations for certain practices were presented. I still think Bethel's leaders have some 'splaining to do, but I remember a poignant statement made by a pastor. He didn't mention Bethel by name, but he cited Mark chapter 9. His disciples tried to stop others who were casting out demons and healing Jesus's name. Jesus corrected them saying "For whoever is not against us is for us."
I really enjoy the stuff from apologia but this was my first thumbs down. The interviewer might have a desire to do this but he just doesn't carry the gift. Sorry bro this isn't meant to put you down maybe you just need more training up. God bless you all
My understanding of a person is based on context and consistency: of a life, of words, of a testimony lived out, and what they bring and leave as they come and go.
When he made that creepy analogy of having sex with any woman you can imagine in your life and heaven being even better I lost it Hahahaha 😂 this man, is the definition of wishy washy.
1699stu I do not believe that Bethel would have let their representative go on air with these gentleman without a long discussion before-hand, and iron-clad guarantee on what would, and would not, be allowed to be asked and talked about.
@@kevinkupferschmid4094 Most likely mate. It is interesting they chose this guy over Johnson or Vollaton. It may be time for us to be skeptical and test apologetic or truth confronting ministry that have a large platform. I wouldn't put it past Satan using people to fund and operate these things to have controlled opposition.
Bill Johnson's teaching on kenosis is pretty much the same as what John MacArthur has taught, that Jesus emptied Himself and restricted the use of His divine abilities and ministered by the power of the Holy Spirit. There's no denial of the deity of Christ. He affirms the eternal deity of Jesus, while also affirming His humanity while He lived on Earth.
I honestly felt like I was watching an LDS apologist defending their theology. Words mean what they mean. Bill means what he says. What someone write is obviously closer to what they mean then what they say. Be definition you have more time to think about that you write and what you said.
It was remarkable how hard it was for Stephens to explain Bethel's beliefs and practices. Either he was being extremely careful, or Bethel is not as orthodox as he is ready to admit.
This discussion was a lot easier to watch than the first two episodes related to Bethel, because it felt much less one-sided and more balanced. Thank you for posting it!
Andy is like “look here bro, he wrote that book purposefully so what’s up!” I wish Andy would talk more. He’s thoughts are more direct and he finishes them.
Half way in guys and we haven’t gotten no where. I say this in love. We need to have very specific questions because it’s not every day that a bethel guy says yes to showing up. One question “why is it that bethel seems to worship prophesy”? And “everyone” is a prophet.
Thatswellguy check out www.bethel.com/about/christalignment/ where they are saying they support it. The cards are not tarot cards, but are marketed as such so they fool people into visiting their booth at shows. I am against fooling people into talking to you, and also their prophetic stance is a little crazy. They are trying to basically say - we can do prophecy better than the new age so come join us. It’s not about repentance & faith, it’s about what they get out of it.
30:10: This is so ridiculous. The issue isn't whether or not we believe Stephens when he tell us that Bill Johnson said he doesn't believe in the Kenotic Christ he wrote about in his book. The issue is whether or not we believe Johnson. The way to figure out what he really believes is what he does. If he retracts the book or revises that statement, great. But as long as he does nothing, then we have to assume that he really does believe that Christ did His miracles as a man "in right relationship with God and not as God." It's that simple. Stephens is making it unnecessarily complicated (and the hosts are letting him do it).
I’m not sure if bill johnson has ever addressed publicly his teaching on kenosis but I do know that in the charismatic world leaders do not like to address anything they have said because they feel like it calls into question their authority and they vehemently teach that you cannot question authority because they are “appointed by God”.
1:19:18 an advice feeding our current fleshly desires rather than emphasizing on the grace that has been given to us that enables us to love God and free us from our fleshly lusts.
I’m glad how they talked about John 6:50 and the danger of focusing on the healings more than believing in Jesus Christ ...many false disciples left because of Jesus words...he said that the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.But they are some of you that don’t believe. And it’s true that the flesh profits nothing ... We should be focusing on the word,that its only Christ that we can go to for he has the words of eternal life .
I love Cultish, but this was so painful to listen to, specifically because of the host. A host should never use 3 minute run-on sentences. When a host ends a sentence with a question mark, that means that it's time for the host to stop talking. -
what is amazing is that we are talking..asking questions ...shaking the table!!...this is how truth surfaces and when the blind stop dependng on their "blindness" (figurative blindness fyi) as the excuse not to dig for the truth.. We all have the same responsibility to seek Him with our whole heart and our whole mind and our whole soul ...die to self and humble ourselves in the presence of God. We CANNOT know what God thinks or Why He does not give us what 'WE' want. At a certain point in Christian maturity we have to accept that He knows the 'why'! We need to discern the message beneath the underlying "selfishness" of our desire and try to understand and accept where God leads us,
Weak interview, get to the point. Call them out on doctrine. Dont beat around the bush. Get Bill Johnson to answer the questions. Not the messenger. Bethal Church would of authorised for this guy to go on your program.. He was very sketchy on his answers.. he had no substance in his answers.. ment nothing at all.
Guys, its not easy to go to your brother and tell him. People who have done that including myself through sending spokesperson leader at a local church I attend to in Africa, which is a bethel affiliate to speak to the leader about our concerns. This ended up with people getting abused verbally from the pulpit, being called religious spirits.
Seriously, he brings up 'slander is illegal'. What about slandering the very definition of who Jesus is. Nothing is more important than getting the fundamental pillars of our faith correct .
To all the commenters wondering why Cultish is only throwing softballs here, remember that James White and Jeff Durbin embrace Michael Brown who calls Bill Johnson his brother in Christ. Though Brown has sort of questioned some of Johnson's teachings, he really doesn't see the danger of Bethel and Johnson, Vallotton, et al.
Guilt by association twice removed doesn’t make any sense. You can be friends with someone and not approve of everyone they themselves are friends with - let alone everything that their friends’ friends think!
@@lectorintellegat Every time White questions Brown about NAR and charismania, it's softball, and then they yuck it up and pat each other on the back. Brown has convinced White that NAR doesn't really exist, so White (and Durbin) aren't too concerned about it.
@One for all, the fact that White is capable of doing the research only compounds the problem. He takes Brown's word for it rather than doing due diligence himself. NAR is a huge problem all over the world now but White and Durbin refuse to see it for what it really is. Elders are responsible to teach as well as warn & protect the Church
@@LochFred, I'm glad you mentioned Lindsey's interview because that only makes this latest interview more troubling. Cultish/Apologia had Lindsey's firsthand testimony to back up the mountains of fully documented research available regarding Bethel/Johnson/Vallotton, and yet they thought it prudent to bring in a Bethel guy? For what? Didn't they believe Lindsey?
That being said... I do believe and trust that this guy really believes what he is saying and he is being honest. He just doesn't know. I pray for him.
Hey Jeff. Thanks for having this interview man, I think it's great to see the Church as a whole asking questions and comparing theology to better understand truth. Speaking of questions, ask your's quicker. Very tough to follow. Too much set up. Keep it up bro.
This video did not convince me Bethel is a cult. Everything Bill Johnson said can be taken multiple ways. As a hearer who doesn’t have a belief either way about bethel, those statements used by the cultish hosts did not sound heterodox. I understand how people who don’t understand Christ’s identity and christology could misunderstand what bill is saying, but if you know the Bible his statements are not confusing. If anyone got confused then the Holy Spirit at work in their life can correct it.
As a man who once diligently followed the false teachings of Todd White, who closely followed the model Bill presents in regards to Christ’s deity upon the incarnation and while doing miracles, there was absolutely no expectation that I was to understand Christ was fully God while performing miracles. I was fully convinced for many many years that Jesus was not God while undergoing His ministry post baptism. Please don’t allow Bethel and their associates to rule you with confusing half truths so they can try and continue ministry under a false pretense of orthodoxy.
A common thing within NAR type teachings, is that some of them play an interesting word game. Some will often say the correct orthodox thing or theology point, BUT, they will add, that people are still not ready to hear the “revelation” that they have, because the time is not right. So they will put a pin it. So it’s a weird phenomenon that occurs. They will say the right thing publicly, for the people, while thinking and believing something else, within a smaller group in private.
I was very excited to watch this. Until I saw that the lead host let the guest hijack the interview immediately after the first question which took waaaaaaay too long. The second “question” was a closed end question so the guest simply responded “no”. The third question was so confusing that the guest responded, “I guess so”. Please take this constructively: the lead host should talk less leading up to a question. Ask the questions, and do follow up questions if necessary. Let the guest respond and Don’t rescue the guests by providing your own response. This should have been a more impactful interview. Live and learn!
He does not believe in what he is advocating for. You can tell he isn’t confident in what he’s saying. He is looking up and lacking in eye contact. It’s subconscious to not make eye contact when you’re lying or lack confidence in your position. We need to pray for this group of people. They are deceived
The thing is Billie is not just a teacher he's an "Apostle". He is not teaching old ideas he is proclaiming new revelation. Bill may as well be judged just like an LDS Apostle
This is the same dodgy nonsense I get from my local pentecostal pastors. They DO KNOW their doctrine. They went to seminary, or are currently there studying. They have all this knowledge, information and doctrine but they CHOOSE NOT TO teach it to their churches and when I ask them why they don't just crack it open, pick a book and start from chapter 1 verse 1, I get excuses and blame shifting.
A whole lot of nothing. Where is the Word? Confusion. Do not accept this man"s explanation. Is he capable of thinking this out on his own... or just regurgitating what has learne?. Not compelling at all.
The guy literally said nothing. He just skated around every question. His entire argument: Yea I realize that the Bill writes books entirely based in heresy and makes a ton of money, but don't call him a heretic. I asked him what he meant and he doesn't really mean that stuff he is super duper about Jesus and stuff.
The very fact of Bethel trying to bring the kingdom to earth is troubling. We know it's NAR influence. Therefore it has a broken foundation. Thanks for the program. Carry on brother.
I think it comes from "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Jesus did teach his disciples to pray for God's Kingdom to come on earth and for His will to be done here - like God's will is done in heaven.
Great conversation with accountability and grace. Didn't need to attack the guy but also continued to speak the truth in love. I do wish a question would have come out on the GOLD DUST!!!
Yeah respectfully Bill lied to his face. He needs to remove the books. There’s a difference between loving your brother and being a coward. This is metaphorical cult practices.
No Man Shall Add to or Take Away. ... “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19.) God never changes. He's the same as yesterday, today, and forever. There's nothing new under the sun.
This bethal guy can’t even keep up to the conversation, his answers make no sense. He just rambles. Why would he go on this show and make his church sound so stupid?
Answer to every question. "Yes we said that... but we dont mean it." Or "Bill says that, and writes that... but he doesn't beleive it." Bad interview, nobody's thoughts were made more clear. They just moved the goalposts closer for the interview.
Was pretty disappointed with this series with Elijah. This didn't really clear up any concerns about Bethel Church in Redding regarding their gnarly theology, mysterious books, and cultish behavior.
I can appreciate all the "love and dialogue"--I could appreciate it more if it modeled biblical apologetics, Paul didn't mince words, neither did our Lord and Savior. Call error --error and call people to repentance. Bethel and the NAR is a different jesus, a different gospel, a different spirit. Since Dr. Walter Martin was brought up- he also defined a cult as any deviation from orthodox Christianity -- Bethel has major deviations not just peripheral issues. I thank the LORD that He delivered me out of this awful delusion. My family is still deeply involved. Some practices ---just some: (ie) Bill Johnson teaching real presence in the Lord Supper astral projection clairvoyance "activating of gifts" supports polytheism with Heidi Baker supports contemplative prayer practices "soaking" and extra biblical revelations low to no view of scriptural authority no discussions of repentance and call to holiness or turning from sin to name just a few...… I am both shocked and deeply grieved that an "apologetics" ministry either cannot or will not call this for what it is. Peoples souls are on the line, get out of Bethel/NAR, repent and get back to Christ. People can "say" anything they want as a "doctrinal statement" but what do they really teach to the people and really live out. Wake up church!!!
Public teaching does not require me to “go to my brother directly”. The church militant has the responsibility to call out error. And No, BJ has not clarified this issue.
After reading the comments, I'm glad I decided not to spend the time on an interview with a Bethel apologist. Seems like there were too many softball questions, and the interviewers allowed him to weasel out of answering questions.
Um..this guy's answers are not compelling at all. Sorry dude but not swayed at all. Quacks like a cult. Plus, the passion translation is heretical absolutely and lifts up shekinah which is completely kabbalah and not scriptural. He sounds nervous and his thought is not linear and dodgy at best. Stop giving Bethel money. If you deny the deity of christ then you are speaking of another Jesus- if you get that wrong then you have no right being in the ministry. I was a mystic previous and GOD won't always heal when we ask because it is HIS will not ours that will supersedes. Main differences between magik and prayer...his will not ours. Look at lord's prayer.
I really wish the hosts hadn’t tried so hard to not offend this guy and just hit him in the face with the truth. Sir, Bill Johnson WROTE this...don’t tell me that privately he denounced it and those 2 are equivocal. They aren’t. A WRITTEN book is not a “misspeak” . Bill Johnson is a heretic, he does preach a false gospel, he is a false prophet, and I pray for all those under this mans tutelage, that they may find salvation.
This dude would would be a dodge ball champion....if he played... Although they took it real soft on him he dodged every single question and reaffirmed Bill Johnson's heresy....
News flash Bill...Elisha died of an illness, the Lord struck those who took the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner with illness and death, and Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his frequent stomach ailments.
Elijah when questioned (approx. 26.45 in) basically about Bethel's theology and anybody responsible of teaching it to its members etc. regarding conflictions of something that is published by Bill Johnson v what he 'actually meant' and then asked basically “shouldn't Bill go right out and correct any misunderstanding without delay?” - his response was "Let's say a student was teaching that, I think they would definitely (who's they?), I mean if I heard that taught, and let's say was someone 'under me' at some level - err, I could see myself sitting down and being like well walk me through what you think, did you mean to say that?, and to gently and lovingly correct what needs to be corrected. Sometimes people misspeak, sometimes people miswrite, and Bill’s ‘basically’ tired out" Is that a good enough reason for these conflictions between his written teachings and his pastoral teachings? I wouldn't bat an eyelid if a student who didn't know better was misguided in their beliefs, but I would be incredibly concerned if someone 'above me' were not only saying these conflicting things, but were not taking full responsibility on putting it right when questioned. For Elijah to say he understands people being 'cautious' he is solely missing the point. It's not about correcting these issues in future publications, it's about the damage he's doing right now (and might have done in the past) In my humble opinion, if what Elijah is saying is true, then he should be having this albeit uncomfortable conversation with Bill as a fellow soldier of Christ, and be advising him to stand up and be counted to correct the most important thing he could possibly do right now as a Pastor.
Bill Johnson doesn't just "go 1 mile over the speed limit" with his preachings! Ridiculous statement. BJ does way more than go "1 mile over the speed limit"- he goes off the beaten path and does donuts and even goes off cliffs sometimes! gahhh
It’s gobbliegook. Can we get another video on this topic, that actually dives into the cult characteristics, and false doctrines, they DO in fact still actively teach, sell, and preach??
Bethel's Apologist beats around the bush. Nothing really solid from him. All I know is that Bill Johnson preaches something different from what he teaches from His books. The term CONFUSION surfaces up. My pastor is a 60-year-old man who gets 3 to 4 hours of sleep , lives in pain, and he is sound in his preaching and teaching. No excuse for Bill Johnson. For those of us who preach and teach knows beyond a fact that when we theological and doctrinelly are wrong. Our hearers will have a wrong application of God's Word. If you mispoke and are not clear on what you teach. You should not be a Pastor. Bill Johnson would need to take expository preaching/ teaching and Hermeneutics.
Ok not the best segment. But I don't think this was a waste of time, as it perfectly demonstrates what Bethel is. Elijah is believing a lie and he isn't even aware. At the 1:19:20 mark "I help guys with like porn like stuff..." and then he goes on to offer an analogy of heaven being better than a lifetime of sex with whatever woman you want. He goes on to say "... that's why you say no to that [porn]". Actually you say no to that because when you were born from death to eternal life through Christ Jesus by the grace of God, He replaced your heart of stone with a heart of flesh which can not reconcile with grieving the Holy Spirit and remaining in habitual sin. Why? Because Jesus is your ultimate treasure. Elijah said that the charismatic church does not learn through systematic theolgy but that he wished they did. Rather they learn through osmosis. Why remain? Get out of there. Get away from twisted theology. Have nothing to do with it.
As a teacher/ Pastor/ leader of Christ’s church you can’t have it both ways in that you write one thing and publish it but say another in private. A clear, concise understanding of the person and work of Christ is central to one’s salvation. He is not primarily our example but our Sacrifice and Savior from God’s wrath. Mr. Elijah seems sincere but Bill Johnson at the very least is causing confusion and at worse steering people away from the “faith once delivered to the saints” for a different gospel. Johnson’s misunderstanding and/or misleading teachings are doing harm to the church in general.
40:00: This is something I've noticed about hyper-Charismatics. There's nothing wrong with reading from a lot of different (and differing) authors, but no matter how heretical one of them may be, they are unwilling to completely discount everything he or she says. Bill Johnson even talks about this, telling people they need to be able to seperate the "meat from the bones" of new "prophecy" and new "revelation". But when someone's teachings are SO heretical (either in the quantity of what they erroneously state or in the magnitude of their wrongness), eventually, you have to question everything they teach. Kat Kerr is a good example. She has put out SO MUCH that is SO FAR removed from the truth of scripture that we have to question her motives, and indeed, her very sanity. If you want to use another analogy, it's like a Chinese buffet. If I go to a buffet and I learn that only one of the dishes is poisoned, I'm never going to go back and I am going to warn other people about it. The hyper-charismatics, on the other hand, would say that everything but that one dish is good for nutrition. I would argue that you can get those things of nutritional value from much safer places.
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Let me help you all understand what Mr. Elijah was saying.. what he was saying was, without being allusive, hoping to be as clear and transparent as possible, so that nobody can say otherwise and that everyone can understand the answer, so as to make as little confusion needed, in order that all people can feel included and comfortable, wanting to be open and honest about everything in my humble opinion I totally forgot what I was going to say...
Precisely.
Lol 😂
Brilliant! That is to say, clever…and insightful! Articulate and edifying, yet not vague…clarifying even, so that all can discern the gist of the commentary, and having had their eyes opened, be able to intelligently dialogue on the parsing of the original statement…that is to say…
That is the sound of a man who is anticipating the many ways that certain viewers will try pull apart or find fault with anything he is saying. This particular thread seems to be justifying that approach.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Just to be clear, let me hem hah around while I try to come up with a good response because I am an apologist by the way!!!!!
The Greatest Man in history is Jesus. He had no servants, yet they called Him Master. He had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. He had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today, He had no wife, yet He's the Bridegroom, I love you Jesus with all my heart, strength and soul.
That was the greatest statement I’ve ever in my life read in the comments 🤓 amen 🙏 to that!
Me too
your awesome thank you!
@@manuelfarias6694 :) I'm nothing bro blessings all the Glory is the Lords
WHOA,.... Amen amen amen.
That is beautifully put.
Yes, love that
I assumed that the purpose of "cultish" was to take falsehood head on. The hosts could have asked much more specific questions and reason through them:
1. Gold dust
2. What did Bill mean that Jesus could not heal, etc?
3. Thier affiliation with Todd Bentley
Many more questions.
Cultish, kindly consider in helping me understand your approach in this episode.
Cultish is letting the person expose himself. He did a great job.
YES THANK YOU, ask him about the gold dust and angel feathers! see what he does to try and make the bible support that nonsense
Do you have a problem with the things Ezekiel wrote about in his encounters with God? What about John in Revelation? Is God limited to only doing the particular strange things recorded in the Bible, or is He allowed to do things that He didn't include within its pages?
@@dagman85gold dust and angel feathers aren’t just strange, they are fraudulent. Potentially leading to distrust in the truth of the Gospel.
@kristinberry3915 - I realize sometimes people fake the gold dust. I don't know about the feathers, but I have seen people dump a bag of gold glitter on the ground at a conference. It wasn't at Bethel, though, and it wasn't the people putting on the conference who did it: it was attendees with a twisted sense of humor. It was very frustrating to me, because I had seen and experienced legitimate, supernatural gold dust appearing at a previous conference put on by the same ministry. I know the real thing happened, but anyone whose first exposure to "gold dust" was that glitter might get very jaded and assume it's all fraudulent. It really does happen supernaturally, though. I also know someone who has had feathers appear to him multiple times, so that can be very real, too.
The existence of counterfeit hundred dollar bills doesn't mean there are no real ones - it just means some people lack scruples. The leadership at Bethel is full of integrity, though, and I'm confident they aren't faking anything.
It would be great to see Bill Johnson personally talk with Jeff Durbin. I truly believe it would be edifying to the body of Christ and help bring some clarity to the Church. I suggest a 3 hour dialogue, Haha.
At least!
Johnson would never do that. But it would be awesome.
*8 hour dialogue
D Muolo I like how our profile pictures contrast well
bill would absolutely do this
Strong title, weak interview. “Is Bethel a Cult” would’ve been my opening question. What’s with the clickbait, Cultish? Weak... disappointing. Painfully disorganized and unclear conversation. Imagine Apostle Paul conducting this interview?!
Sometimes you don’t want to just jump into the topic. You want to give your opposition enough rope to either prove their validity or to hang themself with.
I agree. At some point you have to get to the point. This is a very hard video to watch because over and over the host would begin a thought or question, then in mid sentence switch to another thought and not finish it, then try to explain what he is thinking, then get back on track only to get diverted in mid sentence again. This type of “question” would go on for several minutes only to finally come to a conclusion. Somewhere in the rambling the question would eventually get asked but by then I’m so frustrated by the journey of it all that the question looses it’s intended purpose. It’s fine to set up a question with a thought process on how you have come to ask the question, but be succinct. Meandering and jumping thought trails in mid-sentence all the time is frustrating and confusing. Normally I really like Apologia videos and interviews, but this one was hard to get through. Is Bethel a cult? Define what a cult is, demonstrate how Bethel fits that definition, and have your guest defend his position that it is not a cult. Then you can get into the nuts and bolts of supporting your argument that it is. Make the questions clear and succinct. And the questions should be thought out in advance and written down. Some latitude can be allowed for the occasional spontaneous question, but even then keep to the pace. I happen to believe Bethel is a cult that teaches gross heresies. I was hoping to see if my assessment is correct or if I am being too harsh. This discussion video does nothing to answer my question. American Gospel is a severe treatment of Bethel and other NAR churches and teachers. Have your guest address what is in that movie.
Same you guys went overboard with being gracious we are defending our faith here people
Paul wouldn't be interviewing. He'd just be making statements of fact. Not politely dallying around.
RECANT your books if the information is incorrect. And publicly repent to the people who were lead astray by these falsehoods.
There's mispeaking, and then there's writing a book years ago with incredible doctrine flaws and leaving it out there for the world. Thanks for the video.
“By their fruits you will know them”. Bill produces some pretty bad fruit.
He makes it clear in the very quote from When Heaven Invades Earth that Jesus was 100% God while living with the limitations of a man filled with and anointed by the Holy Spirit. They are self-imposed limitations, but they are real. There is a reason He said "the Son can do nothing without the Father."
I know a pastor who held to a view that, though by no means heretical, was untrue. And he even wrote a book on it. Today it’s out of print, he publicly disowns it and there’s clarity as to where he is today. I think that’s the most healthy model to take. We’re not infallible, but we do have a responsibility to call it out and correct ourselves for the sake of the local body and the ‘big C’ Catholic Church.
I know the Apologia guys are being respectful to the lone guy that decided to be the punching bag for all of us that disagree with Bill Johnson, but along with respect there could've been direct questions and expect and look for direct answers
my sentiments exactly
Elijah Stevens NEVER answers the questions. What gives?
I honestly believe he’s confused by truth so he won’t answer any questions.
SO so much danced around or left unsaid - I think, perhaps, because you're face to face and dont want to be too 'heavy handed'. But SO much missed.
This was a really missed opportunity.
I truly appreciate you guys and appreciate all this with Cultish.
I truly wish I had more time to touch base on this episode specifically.
Maybe, Lord willing, I can.
I'd sit and watch it again as the hosts and address many of the 'stepped over' and missed opportunities for catching major issues...
Especially when concerning what he said about healings - the term he used that made it sound as though 'this is the good news. This is the message. This is the reason..'
The problem with this episode is the phrase "Bill believes" is stated too much. What is needed is for Bill to be present and say "I believe"
You can find what he believes in his books and sermons. It is crazy!
Yeah, if we wanna know what they believe so let’s just read their books and watch their sermons. Come on guys!
A word salad that doesn't achieve anything.
Very respectfully, Johnson cannot have it both ways. If he truly "misspoke" and "miswrote", why does he continue to say it? Mr. Elijah does not seem to understand how crucial God takes Truth and correct theology. Also, he says that he listens to others that are not totally correct and finds truths in them. This is dangerous territory regarding Scripture.
Amen
Sally Skiera I totally agree , it’s dangerous to pick for meat in a bone pile .
All truth is God's truth. I agree with what Elijah is saying, that you can find truth and some helpful ideas in Richard Dawkins' writings, etc. However, where he totally missed the point, and what Jeremiah and Andrew were trying to draw out is that there is a huge difference between a secular thinker/scientist/politician and a Christian leader/pastor when it comes to speaking about truth. People do not seek out an unredeemed person for spiritual truth. People do seek out Christian leaders for spiritual truth. So we one such leader repeatedly speaks heresy, and does not attempt to publicly correct that heresy, that is the problem. It's a confusion of categories.
He did misspeak. He’s deceiving people. Like you said can’t have it both ways
Sally Skiera and why listen to sermons that you have to sift through bad theology.
Not “just a paragraph”. It is the most crucial and central doctrine of the nature and deity of Jesus vs the Anti Christ spirit. With Denying the Jesus of the Godhead you are no longer in the body of Christ. Pick your side
That was a very long interview for almost none of my questions to be answered. The only thing I got out of that is "yes we believe in the gospel." What was missing was the explanation of why Bethel openly takes part in New Age and occult practices such as black magick. There's just so many that they do it can't be a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding". I don't doubt that this man has good intentions and seems passionate about helping men get out of their porn addiction. But he might be uninformed or misinformed on some of the biggest red flags at Bethel. He might even understand the true gospel. But some of the top dog leaders obviously don't, and if they do, it's obvious that they don't think it's that important. If this guy is as genuine and sincere as he seems, I think he should resign and find a job elsewhere.
my sister and her husband have been with Bethel for many years. They are ex drug addicts/alcoholics and are desperately seeking a "feeling" and so the high they ride now is frenzied "worship" services and such. The antichrist and false prophet will focus on signs and wonders as well. People want emotional highs. That's one of the draws for my sister and her husband. They want excitement.
We don’t need power encounters we need truth encounters
What did Paul have on the road to Damascus? He had already heard Stephen preaching when he was martyred, but yet that left him unmoved and approving of Stephen's death. His murder, really.
Please be consistent and dont stick up for Bethel now ... just because he is a nice guy does not give him a pass - IF YOU PREACH ANOTHER JESUS YOU PREACH ANOTHER GOSPEL - they have a slew of prophecies that were shown to be false and that means they are false prophets, so says the Lord!
It's such an awkward interview . Also those awkward silences or even when this guy is like sure sure but doesn't actually answer the question 🙄
Paul would have demolished this guy. He is full of it.
Exactly! Thank you for being bold!
@@paulniewulis9189 Amen !
These guys softball this whole interview and I am amazed that Jeff Durbin allowed them to interview this guy.
There is a time for all things. Mr. Stephens came in good faith and they were kind and gentle with him. He clearly was not going to repent, but look at the good done by this interview. Everyone watching can see that they are in unrepentance and promotion of heresy.
of course bill Johnson affirmed the hypostatic union, he knows thats the right answer. thats how decievers slip in unnoticed, they say the right things and once theyre in, they teach something else
Agreed. Very true, I was thinking the same thing.
There ya go, that's exactly right. The serpent in Genesis even technically deceived Eve with truth when you carefully examine the words. Heretics know how to speak truth and slip in destructive heresies.
I had to leave a Bethel-loving Church here in the UK because the pastor preached that Johnson's views (whilst not particularly orthodox) were, "Within the bounds of Chalcedon." They aren't within the bounds of Chalcedon at all!!! His book "When Heaven Invades Earth" is where Johnson stands on Christology to this day. He hasn't changed his views at all. It seems he even still thinks that what he says is Biblical...and that is extremely scary.
Paul Munro what exactly did he say?
google; Charles Fox Parham and read how the Pentecostal movement started. He was also rumoured to be a con man, who was allegdly also arrested for sodomy. He trained William J. Seymour
They might want all healed, but fact is ALL Christian's do not get healed. To teach everyone is healed is false teaching.
Ultimately setting up false converts by them not hearing the true Gospel. It's just not what Christ commanded us to do or say therefore it is not loving or biblical. If you love your neighbor you tell him or her the truth. You are correct, it's false teaching.
@NorskDubster Dude if God wanted everyone healed it would be done. You obviously do not believe in the sovereignty of God over His creation.
If you read 1 Corinthians starting around verse 18 Paul begins to explain to the members of the Church of Corinth that they are all needed as members of one body making up the body of Christ. He then goes on to explain the order of the members at verse 28.... first Apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping and various tounges. Now the important part.. Paul says: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets ? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
The "more excellent way" than the miraculous he shows us is love. This is what he began to teach about in the following verses. Not all members were meant to perform miracles the Apostles were because we see it written in scripture that they did . The verse you were quoting from in Matthew 10:8 was Jesus speaking directly and specifically to the Apostles, sending them out to proclaim the Gospel as well as perform miracles. The reason we know Jesus was talking to the Apostles is because in the beginning of chapter 11 it says "When Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in their cities." Notice He was instructing HIS twelve disciples. Again, if Jesus wanted everyone healed it would be done and we would not need doctors on this earth. He could absolutely make that happen if it was His will. He is in control.
@NorskDubster Dude This statement doesn't jive with Paul not getting healed from the thorn in his side. I would need to see biblical scripture where it teaches that a commandment is to heal. We are to reach those for Christ, first and foremost. That is our directive.
All believers will be healed ultimately (in the next Eternal life I mean) !
Jesus never says in the Bible that he DESIRES all to be physically healed. This is an incorrect interpretation of “by his stripes we are healed”.
This is strange. Come on yall. Have some gumption. And call this out. Please.
Agreed! 47 mins in and they're still beating around the bush. I can't watch any more.
Bethel is full of deception and Bill Johnson is a wolf!!! People please wake up!!!!!!!!!!! Bethel run for your lives from Bill and that fake church!!!! Repent add bd come out from amongst them!!!!!!!!
@@disciplesoftheking Pentecostalism - where you are looked down at if you don't speak in ''tongues''
The movement which is about mimicing the sinners who party with loud music and chaotic babbling.
It is good to have done the interview; however, it didn't highlight the exposure to many of the falsehoods Miss Davis presented, which even a babe in Christ could identify as wrong. This interview does however show a willingness to ask someone from their staff directly. In the long run; it is beneficial. It actually solidifies the warning to stay clear of these teachings!! It actually shows what needs to be seen. They that "follow" Mr. Johnson's lead are willing to allow him to speak ambiguous statements that align to mystery esoteric schools of thought and then back track when approached by the discerning Christian (which I believe they would label that as a religious spirit). Sounds much like the character of the serpent in Gen 3. Christ NEVER mixed truth w/ error, never misled, was always direct!
yaaaaassss
Elijah is good at dodging questions.
He is also enabled all video.
He has "good" arguments but the host rips them up justifiably. Bill shouldn't have published a book with things in it he doesnt think are true.
My thoughts exactly. He dances 🕺 around everything because he’s actually confused by the truth.
How so? I thought the interview was pretty even handed amidst the differences.
I love this podcast. I have one complaint, Jeremiah is very hard to listen to. He has a tendency to get off topic, not finish a thought before switching subjects. It's all over the place. Am I the only one??? Overall he's great I just wish someone would point it out to him.
Eli S you are not alone!! I do appreciate the work he’s attempting to accomplish but it’s all so fragmented... I would want the critique if it were me. Most people need notes to be concise, and he seems to be someone who could benefit from more preparation and a script of some kind.
compared to prior Cultish episodes/podcasts that addressed Bethel, this one felt muted. The prior guests were very outspoken about Bethel's "new age" practices and language and worship. I heard Elijah say a lot of good things but this interview never got to the issues that divide Bethel from Biblical doctrine. I appreciate and have enjoyed all the prior Cultish episodes (especially Steven Bancarz, that introduced me to the rest of Cultish). I sincerely hope no one walks away from this most recent interview (3 part podcast with Elijah) and considers Bethel a legitimate option as a Biblical church. There is much more to discuss and this last interview fell short. Thanks for all you are doing Cultish, I don't expect perfection but I hope you follow this up with something stronger. God Bless.
Completely agree they really took it way too easy on the garbage. Even worse, sure seem Elijah the guy from Bethel didn't really grasp or comprehend where the errors are with what was being discussed.....
Mavtech7 Jesus was a man anointed by God the Father( the only true God) and it was the Father in Christ who did the works. Jn14:10 Ac2:22 Ac10:38 The Son can not be doing anything of Himself. Jn5:19. I cannot do anything of Mtself. Jn5:30 God saved Him out of death. Heb5:7 lets believe what scripture actually teaches. Not what orthodoxy thinks it says! We don't need orthodoxy to be saved. We are saved through repenting and believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. Mt16:16 Jn20:31 Jesus clearly taught He is the SON of God. Jn10:36 Jn19:7 Jn11:27 Jesus is not the living God. Jesus has a God. 1Cor15:24,27,28 Jesus will be subject to His Deity forever.
Totally agree with all the points you made there ! this video . It's pretty disappointing indeed 😏
Tim Sharpe Right. They constantly practice EISEGESIS and force their orthodoxy into the text of scripture when it isn't there.
@@keithfuson7694 Reading your comments, forgive me if i'm not reading it correctly, sure seems you are saying Christ is not God and thus could do nothing...?
John 10:18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
And before you jump all over "received from My Father" would assert that is only the command to do so, the ability was and is still completely within Himself as He/Christ is equal to (Phil 2:5-11) and fully God Act 20:28... Just seems you are really trying the thread a very file thread to say Christ is not God...
Here’s my prophetic word: Bill Johnson will not issue any retractions/corrections.
That may pass the prophetic litmus given time and bills eventual death.
I was expecting a discussion with more to and fro. Not a never ending monologue where the question was completely lost. Did the host really do enough critical evaluation and questioning. Overall it was a very disappointing discussion.
I agree and this is not throwing shade but I think the interviewer is not good at interviewing.
It seems to me the interviewer is saying the right things, but the representative from Bethel seems to be strictly defending Bill Johnson. Cultish is asking Bill Johnson to clarify his theology, but this teacher from Bethel doesn’t seem to think that’s necessary. He says people need to ask Bill Johnson themselves, but Bethel is reaching thousands of people worldwide, they can’t all fly out to Bethel and setup a coffee date with Bill Johnson. There’s more than just ‘misspeaking’ here. Bill Johnson seems to be consistently teaching problematic theology. I am more disappointed with this teacher from Bethel than the one asking the questions.
@@aarongreen269 I agree with you . In my opinion I just think the interviewer should of pushed a little more.
tommy after watching the full interview, I agree with you. There seemed to be a lot of dodging on both sides instead coming right out with what needed to be said.
The classic move in an interview is to ask to “lets go back a bit” to avoid the question. That way nothing can be said and it sounds like an answer. TBH it’s a pet hate because it’s a cope out. Politicians are brilliant at it.
I noticed this too, right away.
He said that, but then unlike many politicians, he followed it with relevant context.
As of the morning of 10/15/19, "when heaven invades earth" is still for sale on the bethel store site. Bill Johnson has recanted nothing...
Thanks for the clarification.
I appreciate the generosity of this dialogue. Ideas and practices were challenged and no one was attacked. Even somewhat rational explanations for certain practices were presented. I still think Bethel's leaders have some 'splaining to do, but I remember a poignant statement made by a pastor. He didn't mention Bethel by name, but he cited Mark chapter 9. His disciples tried to stop others who were casting out demons and healing Jesus's name. Jesus corrected them saying "For whoever is not against us is for us."
I really enjoy the stuff from apologia but this was my first thumbs down. The interviewer might have a desire to do this but he just doesn't carry the gift. Sorry bro this isn't meant to put you down maybe you just need more training up. God bless you all
that is the perfect way to say it. Sorry Apologia Studios...you truly don't have the gift. I was so hyped to watch this video, but it was painful.
My understanding of a person is based on context and consistency: of a life, of words, of a testimony lived out, and what they bring and leave as they come and go.
This is my first thumbs down to apologia studios.
When he made that creepy analogy of having sex with any woman you can imagine in your life and heaven being even better I lost it Hahahaha 😂 this man, is the definition of wishy washy.
What Mark was that at ? Haha 😂😂
Right?! What kind of apologist is he...? 😬🤢
That is a ridiculous analogy!
Wow that tells us a lot about this dude. His idea of heaven is serial immorality? I would like to see his browser history.
Pretty carnal
I really appreciate this conversation! Thank you very much for having it, and arguing in a respectful way.
Who are these hosts what is their agenda. This interview looked like they were playing both fields. This is frustratingly inadequate and impotent.
1699stu I do not believe that Bethel would have let their representative go on air with these gentleman without a long discussion before-hand, and iron-clad guarantee on what would, and would not, be allowed to be asked and talked about.
@@kevinkupferschmid4094 Most likely mate. It is interesting they chose this guy over Johnson or Vollaton. It may be time for us to be skeptical and test apologetic or truth confronting ministry that have a large platform. I wouldn't put it past Satan using people to fund and operate these things to have controlled opposition.
Bill Johnson's teaching on kenosis is pretty much the same as what John MacArthur has taught, that Jesus emptied Himself and restricted the use of His divine abilities and ministered by the power of the Holy Spirit. There's no denial of the deity of Christ. He affirms the eternal deity of Jesus, while also affirming His humanity while He lived on Earth.
I honestly felt like I was watching an LDS apologist defending their theology. Words mean what they mean. Bill means what he says. What someone write is obviously closer to what they mean then what they say. Be definition you have more time to think about that you write and what you said.
"King-dome" - what's that? Is that the stadium in Seattle?
It was remarkable how hard it was for Stephens to explain Bethel's beliefs and practices. Either he was being extremely careful, or Bethel is not as orthodox as he is ready to admit.
Or he really doesn't know because he is so manipulated in his mind by it
@@hamerac That is a possibility but he didn't sound as if he was ignorant of the tenets of orthodoxy.
This discussion was a lot easier to watch than the first two episodes related to Bethel, because it felt much less one-sided and more balanced. Thank you for posting it!
This wasnt good. Didn't answer the question and didn't address the seriousness of it either. It left too much unanswered
Or..... is that part of the answer?
Andy is like “look here bro, he wrote that book purposefully so what’s up!” I wish Andy would talk more. He’s thoughts are more direct and he finishes them.
Half way in guys and we haven’t gotten no where. I say this in love. We need to have very specific questions because it’s not every day that a bethel guy says yes to showing up. One question “why is it that bethel seems to worship prophesy”? And “everyone” is a prophet.
They support tarot card style readings with prophecies etc. Not dodgy?
I don't think they support it, but there is a lack of warning against it from their side. No true leaders.
@@Thatswellguy Sadly they do have and use tarot cards ,my son is very much involved in the making and use of them
Thatswellguy check out www.bethel.com/about/christalignment/ where they are saying they support it. The cards are not tarot cards, but are marketed as such so they fool people into visiting their booth at shows. I am against fooling people into talking to you, and also their prophetic stance is a little crazy. They are trying to basically say - we can do prophecy better than the new age so come join us. It’s not about repentance & faith, it’s about what they get out of it.
30:10: This is so ridiculous. The issue isn't whether or not we believe Stephens when he tell us that Bill Johnson said he doesn't believe in the Kenotic Christ he wrote about in his book. The issue is whether or not we believe Johnson. The way to figure out what he really believes is what he does. If he retracts the book or revises that statement, great. But as long as he does nothing, then we have to assume that he really does believe that Christ did His miracles as a man "in right relationship with God and not as God." It's that simple. Stephens is making it unnecessarily complicated (and the hosts are letting him do it).
A false Christology is a false salvation. Sincere but nevertheless false.
I’m not sure if bill johnson has ever addressed publicly his teaching on kenosis but I do know that in the charismatic world leaders do not like to address anything they have said because they feel like it calls into question their authority and they vehemently teach that you cannot question authority because they are “appointed by God”.
1:19:18 an advice feeding our current fleshly desires rather than emphasizing on the grace that has been given to us that enables us to love God and free us from our fleshly lusts.
I cannot find the previous episodes that they are referring to (besides the 2 parts with Lindsay). Anyone know where to find them?
Also could not find them
I’m glad how they talked about John 6:50 and the danger of focusing on the healings more than believing in Jesus Christ ...many false disciples left because of Jesus words...he said that the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.But they are some of you that don’t believe.
And it’s true that the flesh profits nothing ...
We should be focusing on the word,that its only Christ that we can go to for he has the words of eternal life .
The subject of grave soaking and destiny cards (taroh cards) did not get brought up unless I missed it.
Nope these things amongst others didn't come up
It might have been covered in the other parts of the interview as this was just a portion of the full interview.
I love Cultish, but this was so painful to listen to, specifically because of the host. A host should never use 3 minute run-on sentences. When a host ends a sentence with a question mark, that means that it's time for the host to stop talking.
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what is amazing is that we are talking..asking questions ...shaking the table!!...this is how truth surfaces and when the blind stop dependng on their "blindness" (figurative blindness fyi) as the excuse not to dig for the truth.. We all have the same responsibility to seek Him with our whole heart and our whole mind and our whole soul ...die to self and humble ourselves in the presence of God. We CANNOT know what God thinks or Why He does not give us what 'WE' want. At a certain point in Christian maturity we have to accept that He knows the 'why'! We need to discern the message beneath the underlying "selfishness" of our desire and try to understand and accept where God leads us,
Weak interview, get to the point. Call them out on doctrine. Dont beat around the bush. Get Bill Johnson to answer the questions. Not the messenger. Bethal Church would of authorised for this guy to go on your program.. He was very sketchy on his answers.. he had no substance in his answers.. ment nothing at all.
Guys, its not easy to go to your brother and tell him. People who have done that including myself through sending spokesperson leader at a local church I attend to in Africa, which is a bethel affiliate to speak to the leader about our concerns. This ended up with people getting abused verbally from the pulpit, being called religious spirits.
Seriously, he brings up 'slander is illegal'. What about slandering the very definition of who Jesus is. Nothing is more important than getting the fundamental pillars of our faith correct
.
To all the commenters wondering why Cultish is only throwing softballs here, remember that James White and Jeff Durbin embrace Michael Brown who calls Bill Johnson his brother in Christ. Though Brown has sort of questioned some of Johnson's teachings, he really doesn't see the danger of Bethel and Johnson, Vallotton, et al.
Guilt by association twice removed doesn’t make any sense. You can be friends with someone and not approve of everyone they themselves are friends with - let alone everything that their friends’ friends think!
@@lectorintellegat Every time White questions Brown about NAR and charismania, it's softball, and then they yuck it up and pat each other on the back. Brown has convinced White that NAR doesn't really exist, so White (and Durbin) aren't too concerned about it.
@One for all, the fact that White is capable of doing the research only compounds the problem. He takes Brown's word for it rather than doing due diligence himself. NAR is a huge problem all over the world now but White and Durbin refuse to see it for what it really is. Elders are responsible to teach as well as warn & protect the Church
@@carolberubee Well, I think they did that by Interviewing that lady who got kicked out of Bethel on Cultish. . . Just sayin
@@LochFred, I'm glad you mentioned Lindsey's interview because that only makes this latest interview more troubling. Cultish/Apologia had Lindsey's firsthand testimony to back up the mountains of fully documented research available regarding Bethel/Johnson/Vallotton, and yet they thought it prudent to bring in a Bethel guy? For what? Didn't they believe Lindsey?
The devil is so busy managing people's thoughts.
Well said
That being said... I do believe and trust that this guy really believes what he is saying and he is being honest. He just doesn't know. I pray for him.
Hey Jeff. Thanks for having this interview man, I think it's great to see the Church as a whole asking questions and comparing theology to better understand truth. Speaking of questions, ask your's quicker. Very tough to follow. Too much set up. Keep it up bro.
This video did not convince me Bethel is a cult. Everything Bill Johnson said can be taken multiple ways. As a hearer who doesn’t have a belief either way about bethel, those statements used by the cultish hosts did not sound heterodox. I understand how people who don’t understand Christ’s identity and christology could misunderstand what bill is saying, but if you know the Bible his statements are not confusing. If anyone got confused then the Holy Spirit at work in their life can correct it.
Is it just me or is the homie from Bethel wearing the headphones super weird?
As a man who once diligently followed the false teachings of Todd White, who closely followed the model Bill presents in regards to Christ’s deity upon the incarnation and while doing miracles, there was absolutely no expectation that I was to understand Christ was fully God while performing miracles. I was fully convinced for many many years that Jesus was not God while undergoing His ministry post baptism. Please don’t allow Bethel and their associates to rule you with confusing half truths so they can try and continue ministry under a false pretense of orthodoxy.
A common thing within NAR type teachings, is that some of them play an interesting word game. Some will often say the correct orthodox thing or theology point, BUT, they will add, that people are still not ready to hear the “revelation” that they have, because the time is not right. So they will put a pin it. So it’s a weird phenomenon that occurs. They will say the right thing publicly, for the people, while thinking and believing something else, within a smaller group in private.
I was very excited to watch this. Until I saw that the lead host let the guest hijack the interview immediately after the first question which took waaaaaaay too long. The second “question” was a closed end question so the guest simply responded “no”. The third question was so confusing that the guest responded, “I guess so”. Please take this constructively: the lead host should talk less leading up to a question. Ask the questions, and do follow up questions if necessary. Let the guest respond and Don’t rescue the guests by providing your own response. This should have been a more impactful interview. Live and learn!
I agree Jeremiah’s great but he takes over a lot. I wish we could hear from Andy more. He’s more direct and let’s the guest respond.
He does not believe in what he is advocating for. You can tell he isn’t confident in what he’s saying. He is looking up and lacking in eye contact. It’s subconscious to not make eye contact when you’re lying or lack confidence in your position. We need to pray for this group of people. They are deceived
I was thinking the same thing about him looking up .
The thing is Billie is not just a teacher he's an "Apostle". He is not teaching old ideas he is proclaiming new revelation. Bill may as well be judged just like an LDS Apostle
More like an LSD apostle, like he's doped Up
This is the same dodgy nonsense I get from my local pentecostal pastors. They DO KNOW their doctrine. They went to seminary, or are currently there studying. They have all this knowledge, information and doctrine but they CHOOSE NOT TO teach it to their churches and when I ask them why they don't just crack it open, pick a book and start from chapter 1 verse 1, I get excuses and blame shifting.
You guys were way too soft.
A whole lot of nothing.
Where is the Word?
Confusion.
Do not accept this man"s
explanation. Is he capable of thinking this out on his own...
or just regurgitating what has learne?. Not compelling at all.
The guy literally said nothing. He just skated around every question. His entire argument: Yea I realize that the Bill writes books entirely based in heresy and makes a ton of money, but don't call him a heretic. I asked him what he meant and he doesn't really mean that stuff he is super duper about Jesus and stuff.
If Bill is an Apostle, (which he isn't)! Maybe he should learn who Jesus Christ is, the man distorts scripture!!
Sometimes people mispeak??? Praying that God brings His Truth to Mr. Elijah.
The very fact of Bethel trying to bring the kingdom to earth is troubling. We know it's NAR influence. Therefore it has a broken foundation. Thanks for the program. Carry on brother.
I think it comes from "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Jesus did teach his disciples to pray for God's Kingdom to come on earth and for His will to be done here - like God's will is done in heaven.
“I’m going to guess.” That’s where I shut this off.
Great conversation with accountability and grace. Didn't need to attack the guy but also continued to speak the truth in love. I do wish a question would have come out on the GOLD DUST!!!
Yeah respectfully Bill lied to his face. He needs to remove the books. There’s a difference between loving your brother and being a coward. This is metaphorical cult practices.
No Man Shall Add to or Take Away. ... “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19.)
God never changes. He's the same as yesterday, today, and forever. There's nothing new under the sun.
This bethal guy can’t even keep up to the conversation, his answers make no sense. He just rambles. Why would he go on this show and make his church sound so stupid?
Has Elijah watched the American Gospel video?
Answer to every question. "Yes we said that... but we dont mean it." Or "Bill says that, and writes that... but he doesn't beleive it." Bad interview, nobody's thoughts were made more clear. They just moved the goalposts closer for the interview.
Was pretty disappointed with this series with Elijah. This didn't really clear up any concerns about Bethel Church in Redding regarding their gnarly theology, mysterious books, and cultish behavior.
I can appreciate all the "love and dialogue"--I could appreciate it more if it modeled biblical apologetics, Paul didn't mince words, neither did our Lord and Savior. Call error --error and call people to repentance. Bethel and the NAR is a different jesus, a different gospel, a different spirit. Since Dr. Walter Martin was brought up- he also defined a cult as any deviation from orthodox Christianity -- Bethel has major deviations not just peripheral issues. I thank the LORD that He delivered me out of this awful delusion. My family is still deeply involved.
Some practices ---just some:
(ie)
Bill Johnson teaching real presence in the Lord Supper
astral projection
clairvoyance
"activating of gifts"
supports polytheism with Heidi Baker
supports contemplative prayer practices
"soaking" and extra biblical revelations
low to no view of scriptural authority
no discussions of repentance and call to holiness or turning from sin
to name just a few...…
I am both shocked and deeply grieved that an "apologetics" ministry either cannot or will not call this for what it is. Peoples souls are on the line, get out of Bethel/NAR, repent and get back to Christ.
People can "say" anything they want as a "doctrinal statement" but what do they really teach to the people and really live out.
Wake up church!!!
Public teaching does not require me to “go to my brother directly”. The church militant has the responsibility to call out error. And No, BJ has not clarified this issue.
After reading the comments, I'm glad I decided not to spend the time on an interview with a Bethel apologist. Seems like there were too many softball questions, and the interviewers allowed him to weasel out of answering questions.
Um..this guy's answers are not compelling at all. Sorry dude but not swayed at all. Quacks like a cult. Plus, the passion translation is heretical absolutely and lifts up shekinah which is completely kabbalah and not scriptural. He sounds nervous and his thought is not linear and dodgy at best. Stop giving Bethel money. If you deny the deity of christ then you are speaking of another Jesus- if you get that wrong then you have no right being in the ministry. I was a mystic previous and GOD won't always heal when we ask because it is HIS will not ours that will supersedes. Main differences between magik and prayer...his will not ours. Look at lord's prayer.
Can you post the other video links ? I couldn’t find them
I really wish the hosts hadn’t tried so hard to not offend this guy and just hit him in the face with the truth. Sir, Bill Johnson WROTE this...don’t tell me that privately he denounced it and those 2 are equivocal. They aren’t. A WRITTEN book is not a “misspeak” . Bill Johnson is a heretic, he does preach a false gospel, he is a false prophet, and I pray for all those under this mans tutelage, that they may find salvation.
This dude would would be a dodge ball champion....if he played...
Although they took it real soft on him he dodged every single question and reaffirmed Bill Johnson's heresy....
"one day the choices we will make will earn the praise of God"
Please get out of town
News flash Bill...Elisha died of an illness, the Lord struck those who took the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner with illness and death, and Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his frequent stomach ailments.
Elijah when questioned (approx.
26.45 in) basically about Bethel's theology and anybody responsible of teaching
it to its members etc. regarding conflictions of something that is published by
Bill Johnson v what he 'actually meant' and then asked basically “shouldn't
Bill go right out and correct any misunderstanding without delay?” - his
response was "Let's say a student was teaching that, I think they would
definitely (who's they?), I mean if I heard that taught, and let's say was
someone 'under me' at some level - err, I could see myself sitting down and
being like well walk me through what you think, did you mean to say that?, and
to gently and lovingly correct what needs to be corrected. Sometimes people
misspeak, sometimes people miswrite, and Bill’s ‘basically’ tired out"
Is that a good enough reason for these conflictions between his written teachings and his pastoral
teachings? I wouldn't bat an eyelid if a student who didn't know better was
misguided in their beliefs, but I would be incredibly concerned if someone
'above me' were not only saying these conflicting things, but were not taking
full responsibility on putting it right when questioned. For Elijah to say he
understands people being 'cautious' he is solely missing the point. It's not
about correcting these issues in future publications, it's about the damage
he's doing right now (and might have done in the past)
In my humble opinion, if
what Elijah is saying is true, then he should be having this albeit
uncomfortable conversation with Bill as a fellow soldier of Christ, and be
advising him to stand up and be counted to correct the most important thing he
could possibly do right now as a Pastor.
If Phil Jackson witnessed this guy's pivots, he'd be running laps for sure.
Bill Johnson doesn't just "go 1 mile over the speed limit" with his preachings! Ridiculous statement. BJ does way more than go "1 mile over the speed limit"- he goes off the beaten path and does donuts and even goes off cliffs sometimes! gahhh
I truly struggled to listen to this 3 part series. It really didn't clarify things.
It’s gobbliegook.
Can we get another video on this topic, that actually dives into the cult characteristics, and false doctrines, they DO in fact still actively teach, sell, and preach??
Bethel's Apologist beats around the bush. Nothing really solid from him. All I know is that Bill Johnson preaches something different from what he teaches from His books. The term CONFUSION surfaces up.
My pastor is a 60-year-old man who gets 3 to 4 hours of sleep , lives in pain, and he is sound in his preaching and teaching. No excuse for Bill Johnson.
For those of us who preach and teach knows beyond a fact that when we theological and doctrinelly are wrong. Our hearers will have a wrong application of God's Word.
If you mispoke and are not clear on what you teach. You should not be a Pastor. Bill Johnson would need to take expository preaching/ teaching and Hermeneutics.
Ok not the best segment. But I don't think this was a waste of time, as it perfectly demonstrates what Bethel is. Elijah is believing a lie and he isn't even aware. At the 1:19:20 mark "I help guys with like porn like stuff..." and then he goes on to offer an analogy of heaven being better than a lifetime of sex with whatever woman you want. He goes on to say "... that's why you say no to that [porn]". Actually you say no to that because when you were born from death to eternal life through Christ Jesus by the grace of God, He replaced your heart of stone with a heart of flesh which can not reconcile with grieving the Holy Spirit and remaining in habitual sin. Why? Because Jesus is your ultimate treasure. Elijah said that the charismatic church does not learn through systematic theolgy but that he wished they did. Rather they learn through osmosis. Why remain? Get out of there. Get away from twisted theology. Have nothing to do with it.
As a teacher/ Pastor/ leader of Christ’s church you can’t have it both ways in that you write one thing and publish it but say another in private.
A clear, concise understanding of the person and work of Christ is central to one’s salvation. He is not primarily our example but our Sacrifice and Savior from God’s wrath.
Mr. Elijah seems sincere but Bill Johnson at the very least is causing confusion and at worse steering people away from the “faith once delivered to the saints” for a different gospel. Johnson’s misunderstanding and/or misleading teachings are doing harm to the church in general.
40:00: This is something I've noticed about hyper-Charismatics. There's nothing wrong with reading from a lot of different (and differing) authors, but no matter how heretical one of them may be, they are unwilling to completely discount everything he or she says. Bill Johnson even talks about this, telling people they need to be able to seperate the "meat from the bones" of new "prophecy" and new "revelation". But when someone's teachings are SO heretical (either in the quantity of what they erroneously state or in the magnitude of their wrongness), eventually, you have to question everything they teach. Kat Kerr is a good example. She has put out SO MUCH that is SO FAR removed from the truth of scripture that we have to question her motives, and indeed, her very sanity.
If you want to use another analogy, it's like a Chinese buffet. If I go to a buffet and I learn that only one of the dishes is poisoned, I'm never going to go back and I am going to warn other people about it. The hyper-charismatics, on the other hand, would say that everything but that one dish is good for nutrition. I would argue that you can get those things of nutritional value from much safer places.