“It’s about minimizing debt not zero debt” love that you mentioned this. I used to have that same mentality but being more reasonable and realistic definitely helps you weigh out your options.
I respect Dave Ramsey but he is so ignorant in regards to medical school. He just has no idea. He speaks to the American with an average income and what he preaches does work. He is not stupid. The reality is that, as a medical student, embrace nuance when you make a decision, do medical school as cheap as possible and the MOST IMPORTANT thing is that you live below your means post residency and pay them off as fast as possible. Some people will say refinance loans and invest your attending income so you’re investments gain more than your refinanced loans. I just don’t like that because it’s stressful AF to carry around that debt for so long. I want us to think about how well off we can all be 10 years down the road of attending life if we just lived in half our income. It’s insane…. But we gotta watch for life style creep lol. Love your stuff Dr. Jubbal.
Honestly, a person asking Dave R. about attending " cheap " medical school is just preposterous. Where you attend medical school does really matter. I attended an average school during my Bachelor's and for Grad school went to an Ivy League. I could clearly see a difference in terms of quality of education and facilities.
Kevin! there's a video by Dave Ramsey regarding a man who was dismissed from his med school and had accrued over half a million dollars in debt. would love to see your reaction to it!
I was able to acquire the “Earn as You Learn” stipend offered by HCA. I am an HCA trauma surgeon. The company provided a stipend for 18 months during my chief year of general surgery residency and it continued through my one year fellowship in surgical critical care. The only stipulation of the contract was that I had to be on staff at an HCA hospital for a minimum of two years after graduating. This was an amazing opportunity. And I encourage anyone in residency who plans on practicing in an area geographically that has numerous HCA facilities (for example Florida). To take advantage of this opportunity.
The PHD route to get free school for an extra 4 years after medical school is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard if you don’t even like research. Please don’t do that haha
B100% true, it is just basic math. Avg med school debt: 250K 4 years of PCP gross income: 1 mill (250x4) MD/PhD is NOT a good idea from a financial perspective
@@Startupsandsushi Well they do that! Especially foreign students, they love the MD/PhD because its almost free. And I know foreign people marrying US citizens just to get their US permanent residency!
He is SOOOO awful to doctors and acts like they're all financial idiots. The reality is it's impossible for MOST people go to to med school without extreme debt. He really has no idea about the medical training process. Thanks for calling this out.
Because the most in debt people he deals with are doctors. He literally has found that although doctors make lots of money most of them don't understand how money works and just end up in debt their whole life.
I was able to get a full ride to Pharmacy school thru the Indian Health Service scholarship (being native, as well as good academics). My entire doctorate was paid for and I got a stipend of $1500 for 6 years straight. I only owe 3 years more of service to IHS at the same pay.. Meanwhile, a pharmacy resident at my hospital has $350k debt.
Throwback to the days when Kevin went by “J“ on his Med School Insiders channel because he was afraid of the medical system looking down on his videos and now he’s talking about “dong” in the intro 👏🏼😂
I was MD/PhD and loved it. Would not recommend it to someone who doesn’t love research or wants to make research a significant part of their future medical career. It’s just not worth the extra years of training if you don’t have a passion for research. The opportunity cost mentioned is very real. I love Dave Ramsey in a lot of ways but he is misinformed on this particular topic - you aren’t serving primarily in a staff role. You are a PhD candidate. You may have some teaching responsibilities but your main focus is to produce data and develop an academic research project, get training research grants, and publish papers. Also all your medical school interviews are centered around what research you might be interested in pursuing so it would be difficult to BS your way through the process though I imagine it’s possible. Lastly even if you are interested in research I know lots of MDs who are very successful researchers without the PhD. It is often helpful to have the focused time to develop your skills and acumen but depending on what type of residency you do there may be built in time or opportunities for extra research in other areas so it is not the only avenue
Well, if Dave never had to research where a doctor went school or did their residency that means he's probably never had to have a major cancer surgey. If you ever need certain procedures, like the Whipple Procedure, you're not going to get it with someone who doesn't do it often 😳
Great video; I like Dave Ramsey for his simplistic way through finance, even though I know that is not how he got rich. I don't think he knows a lot about the nuisances on this subject to give an opinion. This makes a great video for you to give your insight due to your experience in the field. I still like Dave because I hate unnecessary debt, but I know a hustler when I see one. His advice is excellent for people with little to no financial literacy, but some of the things I question. Thanks again for another great video.
I would push back on one part of this: I do believe Dave got rich without using debt. Debt should always be minimized, but it’s not always feasible and there are forms of debt that have good expectations of return.
For anyone who’s been in med school. Our time is valuable. Spending a bit extra for a nice apartment that is nearer is much better for long term studying.
Dave’s advice is built for mass marketing, and it works wonders for people who lack: A) relevant analytical capabilities, B) discipline, and C) a large income. But his advice is cookie cutter and it’s not at all tailored for doctors. You should absolutely look to minimize your debt and expenses during school. And if you can find a way to do it debt free, great. But if you have to take on debt to go to med school, it’s most often a worthwhile risk that can reap great financial returns.
Yeah, I have never seen someone ask where a doctor went to school... most people go with the doctor in their area that is in network (unless they are looking for a specialist). Unless you want to get into a highly paid specialty then it can matter, but for General Practice it doesn't matter.
@@alstonmiller212 That is correct. We're talking about "opportunity cost". Doing extra 4 years for a PhD (30k/year stipend) is obviously not better than an 4 years of attending salary of 250k. That makes no sense. Those that go in tend to really love research, what Dr Jubbal said. Haven't heard someone going into it to save tuition money. That doesn't make financial sense at all
Exactly. As a general pediatrician, I was able to pay off my 200K student loan 2 years post-residency (so 9 years after starting med school). If I had followed the advice to do an MD/PhD, I would still have 2 years of residency left 9 years after starting med school.
He's right because he's talked to people for decades who went to medical school, for any number of reasons it didn't work out, and then they have the 400k-600k of debt while working only 30k-40k a year in a different industry. I'm glad you made this video for people, but he's not captital W wrong 🤷♀️ It only takes one big thing to go wrong for medical school to go nowhere: injury, family death, family disability, loss of housing, loss of scholarship, parenthood, spouse job change. Both your counsel and his deal with reality. He's as wrong as you are: lowercase w. Just depends on if it works or not.
When I want financial advice I’ll find the best in the business. When I need medical advice I’ll seek a doctor. You have to be EXCEPTIONALLY BRUTAL with from whom you take your advice in this world.
He’s right about paying it off ASAP. It’s not basic to operate debt free, pay cash and contribute to emergency fund and retirement. Once you’re practicing it doesn’t matter to much but the truth is in the middle.
Ramsey means well, and I'd've been well served to learn the basics he teaches much earlier in life and I try to briefly review them with young couples before they get married. However, once you get to a certain level, his rules aren't necessarily the answer. They break down at higher incomes, for instance. His rules will get you to upper middle class, but they are not how the very wealthy or business owners/investors (significant overlap in those categories) think about money based on my observations. The rich tend to see the $ they have as servants and they want those servants working as hard as possible. Yes, cash is king, but you need cash flow, not just cash. Dave in this clip is pretty clueless about medicine and medical training, which is a little frustrating. I read a book about graduate education ~20 years ago that suggested that you will make so much more as an attorney, that saving up money for law school to avoid borrowing and forgoing lawyer salaries was foolish compared to borrowing $ and getting on with it. The same may be true of medicine---though, if a stable, high income is your main goal I question your motivation for studying law or medicine and not going into business.
I wouldn't take anything ramsey says seriously, ESPECIALLY for anything related to higher education. A couple years ago Dave Ramsey had a segment on how to best manage dental school/dental school tuition debt... but confidently did so assuming that dental school was 1.5-2 years. Lost all credibility in my book after that
@@Tom-ff8cv You're full of crap. He has calls from all wide ranges of income. Most make 6 figures who call in and blow it all and wonder why they are broke. Get a clue, so you are not spreading lies.
I really appreciate your comments on the DR video, I am a huge proponent of DR principles but the medical school expense has been a real struggle for me because my state school is only $100K but I can’t get accepted there and the schools that continue to accept me are $300K plus COL and I keep trying to get accepted locally and keep getting rejected and here it’s been a few years and I am just even more miserable working in a job I hate, but here for my family. I do want to share DR is correct in that some hospitals do pay a portion of tuition as I have been offered both a 33% and a 50% tuition reimbursement by 2 different hospital systems of course with a 5-10 year promise to work for them because the hospital BOD and Foundations know me well from my employment with each of them
@@joshualeejiavui For one hospital asked the board of directors if there would be an incentive for me to return as a family practice doc as they have a very difficult time recruiting docs, I worked for them for 17 years so had a very positive relationship, for the other one, I inquired with their corporate office if there were any incentives for current employees pursuing medicine who would be willing to return to work for the company upon graduation and learned that yes they do have a great incentive (50% tuition paid) and I only worked for this hospital for one year and didn’t know anyone at the top M
A student in the middle of the class of a top tier medical school will match better than a student at the top of his class in a bottom tier medical school. The assumption is that student at a top tier medical school will be better trained with more comprehensive training and experience. That said, it is not where you start but where you end up. You may have to go thru 2 years of internal medicine or 2 years of general surgery before gaining acceptance into the specialty of choice. Elite specialties need residents who know how to take care of very sick patients.
I’m a radiologist. 4 years private practice attending salary compared to MD/phd or military pay is a laughable comparison. You are usually much better off taking on the debt unless it’s a crazy figure…300k+
Indiana University for in state students, tuition $29K. No additional mandated fees or costs (of course you have to buy books and live). Harvard $71K + $6K in "mandatory fees and health insurance costs." Where you do residency and fellowship matters a lot more than where you went to med school as long as it is a decent US med school. I totally agree that Dave has NO idea what is involved in medical training. I have to laugh at Dave's "I never asked my doctor where he went to medical school." Every time I am considering a physician or my daughter is being referred to one, I look up where he or she trained, board certification, etc. and have rejected at least one referral for that reason. Guy's claimed area of practice was one that there was no evidence that he had ever trained in, and he had allowed his board certification to lapse in the field that he had been certified! I Do care a lot more about residency and fellowship than medical school though.
There's a certain point where you pretty much have to take out student loans, they are a necessary evil to a certain extent. If you go plunge yourself 100K in debt for a degree in underwater dance theory, that's on you. Every person I have ever met that works in a STEM field has taken out student loans, and everyone of them are doing fantastic in life, Doctor, engineers, nurses, RTs.
When Dave mentioned about it not mattering what med School you went to, his example was that he never asked, meaning the average patient doesn't ask what med school he or she attended, then was going to weigh if they wanted to be treated by him or her. I've had doctors who graduated from some school I never heard of, but it didn't matter. I wasn't going to leave or tell them I wanted to see their Harvard graduates. You missed what he was specifically referring to in that excerpt.
Me living in Germany, I really don't know how you can have like 200k debt, it is just mindboggling and feels cruel as hell. In germany we have like 10k debt MAX after university/medschool etc and only if you got BAfög.
@@94Quang Nah. I will pay my student loans because I took them out I don’t expect anyone else to pay for me that’s stupid, I’m not entitled to their money and they aren’t entitled to mine it’s simple and it’s fair. Entitlement is a lazy person’s attitude.
@@dog7881 Not Sure what your point is. I payed my student loans, every penny of it plus taxes. What i am refering to is that 200k is just outlandishly crazy sum. I really hope that the education is worth that much. Because its Not something I would persue if I was in that option cathegory.
Dave Ramsey changed my life, a few years back got my smart investor pro , living debt free, But i will admit it's not for everyone's position in life, i am a blue collar guy truck driver,for people in my blue collar world it's the way to go. But higher educated people uh maybe not, like a Doctor, or a Dentist, anyhoo just my opinion not facts.
When it comes to student loans and higher degrees, that are actually worth it, Dave is wrong imo. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with MD’s getting into 300-500k student loan debt bc they will make in one year after they become an attending. Same thing he said to a CRNA who got into 150 or 200k loan debt, she would make that in one year so of course it’s worth it but he said it’s not. What’s not worth it is getting those ridiculous degrees that are not marketable in the job market thus people end up being in debt with absolutely no job to justify it. That’s not the case for MD’s or CRNA’s. Those two are hugely marketable and highly needed.
Maybe the problem is that med school cost so much that other people outside the field have no idea but it is sort of like an investment unless you go into something saturated lol
The medical school choice can make a big difference on your future choice in residencies and carrier. So you have to balance the cost vs the benefits. Dave understanding of the medical school process is not as strong as his financial knowledge.
Love the financial direction on the channel. I respect Dave, but man, it drives me nuts when someone acts like an expert on a topic they clearly have no clue on lol
Dave Ramsey is for people who are financially illiterate. Not having debt is a noble goal but being totally debt free your entire life is not the best advice for everyone.
Dave Ramsey's product is aimed at a demographic that are essentially financial alcoholics. The other thing to understand is that "completely correct advice" and useful advice are often two different things when dealing with human beings and changing their behavior, and Dave Ramsey has outright admitted that what his critics say is correct and when he first started that was the advice he gave and it kept producing bad outcomes. He realized that finances are just not that complicated and it wasn't financial education that was the problem, it was controlling human nature. His current advice is aimed at controlling human nature and his criticism of his critics is that his current advice is more successful in producing positive outcomes in the population that is seeking his advice than his original advice that his critics say is more accurate. He knows it is reductive, and he acts like it is not reductive because telling an alcoholic that they need to reduce their alcohol consumption instead of telling them to stop drinking results in them getting drunk again. He would be in trouble in informed consent was the rule in financial advice, but it isn't and he isn't scamming he is just aggressively shading the truth in a manner that he thinks will make people do what is in their own interest.
I facilitated Dave Ramsey’s “classes” at a church I once attended. His advice is so… basic? Rudimentary? Ugh. I only could justify his simplified view of debt by thinking of the classes being like for people who are to debt as some are to alcohol… they need to stay far away due to habit of abuse. He sounds so sanctimonious, but he basically is like Dr. Phil saying, “stop doing that.” Or Nancy Reagan’s “just say NO to drugs” campaign. Most people, I believe, can control their debt and make wise decisions. They just need to be educated. I was lucky that when I was in school, we actually had mandatory classes called “careers” and “personal finance” that taught us life skills like this.
Honestly, a person asking Dave R. about attending " cheap " medical school is just preposterous. Where you attend medical school does really matter. I attended an average school during my Bachelor's and for Grad school went to an Ivy League. I could clearly see a difference in terms of quality of education and facilities.
The stupidest person in healthcare I've met was a nurse that graduated from Yale. She was so certain that she was a cut above that it blinded her to everything she didn't know. I've never rolled my eyes internally so hard as when listening to her literally state in front of a group that a patient couldn't have a disease because she had not heard of it. What the disease is or if the patient did or didn't have it isn't required information to know she was 100% wrong in her reasoning. The disease was the leading cause of the condition in question for hospitalized patients in the country, so an absolute horse's horse. Not something you'd want to advertise that you hadn't heard of in an arrogant manner. Or when she absolutely insisted that a particular drug with several mechanisms of action only had one and mocked the idea that it could have additional actions. I later figured out the drug reference she liked had an abridged entry for the drug. The "stupid" community college nurses who always think that pharmacy has a comically large reference for every drug and operate under the assumption that there is info they are lacking are actually the smart ones. If something matters in a corner case then it is going to matter and being blind to questioning yourself or your resources means you'll have an uphill battle compared to someone who knows a bit less but is more open to re-thinking themselves and revisiting resources. Especially in healthcare where there is enough vagaries and fudge factor for the arrogant ones to rationalize incongruities away.
Dave Ramsey dislikes people taking loans such as education ones to better their lives. I have listened to him and he really goes off on school loans. As much as he has helped several people, he is wrong on so many levels.
I have a dilema, I want to be a doctor so bad but I’m just so worried about future financial security in if doctors will be paid well still. Because it’s the path I want to follow but as education costs rise, I want to make sure doctors salaries will stay steady too so I don’t live my life in crippling debt.
Spend some time in SDN (Student Doctor Network) forum. If you go into primary care = $250k yearly + 25 to 50k loan repayment every year. Also lots of PCP job qualify for PSLF so if you work for 7 years out of residency in non-profit, all gov loans forgiven (look up PSLF if unaware). Or you can go into more lucrative specialty like Cardiology (450k), anesthesia (400-600k), surgery (>500k), OBGYN (400-500k), etc... I'd be more weary of the time commitment rather than financial cost. Your tech friends will be making +100k in their 20's, PA/NP will make >100k in their 20's. Meanwhile you'll be watching them live their lives as you are stuck at home studying all your 20's. Good luck!
@@peytonvogt3319 When Tom is talking about them already earning and working in their 20s-he's referencing the fact that they will be already in their financial contributions to their long term financial wellbeing- not just making a high income young, but that they will be already saving /investing for retirement through a IRA, paying back any student loans quicker and earlier with less accrued interest, etc. The time here is referencing the length of delayed financial contribution and longer interest accrual on loans.
Ramsey is not a fraud, but he’s close to it. He’s a guy with a tv show, he has 1 idea, and his advice is good for 1 type of person in 1 type of situation. Unless you are already financially established and just have too much consumer cc debt his advice is at best malpractice and at worst fraud.
From one MD to another, I think your opinions are mostly wrong. From a person in a fair amount of debt, I agree with Dave Ramsey. Paying interest on high balances is incredibly destructive.
Simply, it's very difficult to get in Medical School debt free without extreme privilege and Dave Ramsay is just wrong here. The ROI on medical school is the best out of any academic path.
Well to some he is a cult has his own loans.. so watch anyone carefully. Even they say he is a christain. I know without credit growing. Can't pay off thujg expect credit to go up. .pay off what is needed. There is a trick to get credit up. Thx for this education
I think people who are in the medical expertise definitely over value school selection while those outside of it, under value it. Its probably somewhere in the middle. There's more millionaire teachers than millionaire doctors though. Doctors are notoriously poor at managing their money due to the amounts of consumer debt they "can afford" which in turn runs down their net worth.
It absolutely does not matter where you go to medical school or where you go for undergrad. It definitely does matter where you go for residency if you’re planning on subspecialty. I went to community college. Transferred to a state school. Went to an offshore medical school and still got a residency at a university program where I later went on to fellowship. If you’re a strong candidate a real program director interested in building a solid program won’t care what fancy name is on the top of your diploma. It is also true that medical school tuition can vary by as much as 4x. I know because I paid it. Good luck to all you future physicians.
This is simply bad advice. Where you go to undergrad or medical school can absolutely matter. Less so if you're going to primary care or subspecializing in something more attainable. Much more so if you're going for something less attainable. As an example, if you go to a medical school that has no NSGY program, good luck getting NSGY experience, letters of rec, research, etc., and matching into a NSGY program.
@@kevinjubbalmd they’re called external rotations. You should try it out. I was able to rotate through several different institutions during my clinical training. I even did 6 months in England for general medicine and general surgery. The experience is out there.
The root word behind doctor is one who teaches, not a physician, so (some) PhD's are the real doctors at most institutions of higher education. That said, I get your point.
@@fr.marklichtenstein8892 I understand. We in this country have and MD shortage not a phd shortage. As a nurse who has worked in the ICU, IR, Inpatient Psych in secure lock down there is NO phd. America has been so dumb down that everyone has a phd and the ‘doctors’ we need are leaving. I’ve been grateful that I have worked with awesome ‘doctors’ who are on call daily and work their a$$ off to help patients-just a pet peeve of mine.
@@travelnurseadventures3225 We probably send too many people to college, or at least before they are ready to buckle down and do the work it needs, and with all the PhD's running around who were trained to do research, there's been a tendency to change the former teacher/normal/vocational training schools into research schools, which is almost certainly a mistake. Also, if I may pick nits, I think the DO's are on track in the U.S. to be 20-25% of all med school graduates in the next year or two, hence my use of "physician" not MD (which is the abbreviation for Maryland...haha). Full disclosure: I'm starting med school at a DO institution this summer.
I got into Dave Ramsey a couple years ago and watched a lot of his videos.. took me a while before realizing he's completely full of shit and most of his advice is terrible, especially for medical students.
I've asked doctors where they went to school and what their standing was in their class. I also think in the future I might ask GPA. A doctor might be offended by that, but I'd be a whole lot more offended if a doctor messed up my health from not paying enough attention in med school--or just wasn't smart enough to get it. A GPA could tell a patient a lot about a physician. The only question would be whether or not you'd get an honest answer.
NOPE! There's far more salient markers of a strong competent physician, and undergraduate GPA or even medical school GPA aren't that at all. You're neglecting that heavy lifting of medical education for clinical application actually comes during residency and fellowship. So, if you want to see how good a physician was trained, maybe look at their residency program and their fellowship program (if they did one), see if their Board certified, and look up their HealthGrades report to get a peek into patient thoughts on the physician (though it's not reliable and can be like Yelp).
“It’s about minimizing debt not zero debt” love that you mentioned this. I used to have that same mentality but being more reasonable and realistic definitely helps you weigh out your options.
I respect Dave Ramsey but he is so ignorant in regards to medical school. He just has no idea. He speaks to the American with an average income and what he preaches does work. He is not stupid. The reality is that, as a medical student, embrace nuance when you make a decision, do medical school as cheap as possible and the MOST IMPORTANT thing is that you live below your means post residency and pay them off as fast as possible. Some people will say refinance loans and invest your attending income so you’re investments gain more than your refinanced loans. I just don’t like that because it’s stressful AF to carry around that debt for so long. I want us to think about how well off we can all be 10 years down the road of attending life if we just lived in half our income. It’s insane…. But we gotta watch for life style creep lol. Love your stuff Dr. Jubbal.
Honestly, a person asking Dave R. about attending " cheap " medical school is just preposterous. Where you attend medical school does really matter. I attended an average school during my Bachelor's and for Grad school went to an Ivy League. I could clearly see a difference in terms of quality of education and facilities.
Honestly keeping your budget tight after residency for 3-4 yrs probably makes more difference.
Kevin! there's a video by Dave Ramsey regarding a man who was dismissed from his med school and had accrued over half a million dollars in debt. would love to see your reaction to it!
yes, I saw that, so sad
I was able to acquire the “Earn as You Learn” stipend offered by HCA. I am an HCA trauma surgeon. The company provided a stipend for 18 months during my chief year of general surgery residency and it continued through my one year fellowship in surgical critical care. The only stipulation of the contract was that I had to be on staff at an HCA hospital for a minimum of two years after graduating. This was an amazing opportunity. And I encourage anyone in residency who plans on practicing in an area geographically that has numerous HCA facilities (for example Florida). To take advantage of this opportunity.
The PHD route to get free school for an extra 4 years after medical school is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard if you don’t even like research. Please don’t do that haha
B100% true, it is just basic math.
Avg med school debt: 250K
4 years of PCP gross income: 1 mill (250x4)
MD/PhD is NOT a good idea from a financial perspective
That’s like marrying someone cuz you can save on taxes but you aren’t attracted to them lol
@@Startupsandsushi Well they do that! Especially foreign students, they love the MD/PhD because its almost free. And I know foreign people marrying US citizens just to get their US permanent residency!
He is SOOOO awful to doctors and acts like they're all financial idiots. The reality is it's impossible for MOST people go to to med school without extreme debt. He really has no idea about the medical training process. Thanks for calling this out.
Because the most in debt people he deals with are doctors. He literally has found that although doctors make lots of money most of them don't understand how money works and just end up in debt their whole life.
Most MD’s are idiots!
Teachers outperform doctors with money... it means something
I was able to get a full ride to Pharmacy school thru the Indian Health Service scholarship (being native, as well as good academics). My entire doctorate was paid for and I got a stipend of $1500 for 6 years straight. I only owe 3 years more of service to IHS at the same pay.. Meanwhile, a pharmacy resident at my hospital has $350k debt.
Good job, buddy 👏👏👏
Throwback to the days when Kevin went by “J“ on his Med School Insiders channel because he was afraid of the medical system looking down on his videos and now he’s talking about “dong” in the intro 👏🏼😂
State school wanted me to pay 60 K in tuition. Unfortunately, there can be 4x differentials. I ultimately went with the cheaper school!
I listen to Ramsey often but I agree with u Dr Jubbal. He errs when speaking on things outside his specialty, like this
I was MD/PhD and loved it. Would not recommend it to someone who doesn’t love research or wants to make research a significant part of their future medical career. It’s just not worth the extra years of training if you don’t have a passion for research. The opportunity cost mentioned is very real. I love Dave Ramsey in a lot of ways but he is misinformed on this particular topic - you aren’t serving primarily in a staff role. You are a PhD candidate. You may have some teaching responsibilities but your main focus is to produce data and develop an academic research project, get training research grants, and publish papers. Also all your medical school interviews are centered around what research you might be interested in pursuing so it would be difficult to BS your way through the process though I imagine it’s possible. Lastly even if you are interested in research I know lots of MDs who are very successful researchers without the PhD. It is often helpful to have the focused time to develop your skills and acumen but depending on what type of residency you do there may be built in time or opportunities for extra research in other areas so it is not the only avenue
It's wild that he believes that a MD PhD program pays for everything.
New drinking game🍻 any time Kevin says nuance!
Well, if Dave never had to research where a doctor went school or did their residency that means he's probably never had to have a major cancer surgey. If you ever need certain procedures, like the Whipple Procedure, you're not going to get it with someone who doesn't do it often 😳
Great video; I like Dave Ramsey for his simplistic way through finance, even though I know that is not how he got rich. I don't think he knows a lot about the nuisances on this subject to give an opinion. This makes a great video for you to give your insight due to your experience in the field. I still like Dave because I hate unnecessary debt, but I know a hustler when I see one. His advice is excellent for people with little to no financial literacy, but some of the things I question. Thanks again for another great video.
What things do you question? do you actually read all the books, listen to the podcasts and follow the baby steps ? Just curious
I would push back on one part of this: I do believe Dave got rich without using debt.
Debt should always be minimized, but it’s not always feasible and there are forms of debt that have good expectations of return.
For anyone who’s been in med school. Our time is valuable. Spending a bit extra for a nice apartment that is nearer is much better for long term studying.
“Nuance” is quickly becoming my new favorite word 😆
Dave’s advice is built for mass marketing, and it works wonders for people who lack: A) relevant analytical capabilities, B) discipline, and C) a large income. But his advice is cookie cutter and it’s not at all tailored for doctors.
You should absolutely look to minimize your debt and expenses during school. And if you can find a way to do it debt free, great. But if you have to take on debt to go to med school, it’s most often a worthwhile risk that can reap great financial returns.
Yeah, I have never seen someone ask where a doctor went to school... most people go with the doctor in their area that is in network (unless they are looking for a specialist).
Unless you want to get into a highly paid specialty then it can matter, but for General Practice it doesn't matter.
Dave Ramsey has no idea what he's talking about. 4 years of opportunity cost doing the PhD matters
That's like missing out on 4 years of attending salary (250k x 4 years = $1 milion you are missing out bc u wanted no debt by doing MD/PHD)
@@Tom-ff8cv 250,000 pretax income and you still have bills student loan and medical insurance
@@alstonmiller212 That is correct. We're talking about "opportunity cost". Doing extra 4 years for a PhD (30k/year stipend) is obviously not better than an 4 years of attending salary of 250k. That makes no sense. Those that go in tend to really love research, what Dr Jubbal said. Haven't heard someone going into it to save tuition money. That doesn't make financial sense at all
Exactly. As a general pediatrician, I was able to pay off my 200K student loan 2 years post-residency (so 9 years after starting med school). If I had followed the advice to do an MD/PhD, I would still have 2 years of residency left 9 years after starting med school.
He's right because he's talked to people for decades who went to medical school, for any number of reasons it didn't work out, and then they have the 400k-600k of debt while working only 30k-40k a year in a different industry.
I'm glad you made this video for people, but he's not captital W wrong 🤷♀️
It only takes one big thing to go wrong for medical school to go nowhere: injury, family death, family disability, loss of housing, loss of scholarship, parenthood, spouse job change.
Both your counsel and his deal with reality. He's as wrong as you are: lowercase w. Just depends on if it works or not.
Hey doc please make a video on....how img s can get into surgical residency....its a req
You can’t. No way an IMG matches into a surgical subspecialty like neurosurgery or orthopedics
@@aliyanwarraich3039 LOL! Completely wrong. Very much possible, I know a few IMG's in those fields in the US =)
@@aliyanwarraich3039 lol you are high 🤣🤣. I know so many non US IMGs who matched into surgery and surgical specialities.
When I want financial advice I’ll find the best in the business. When I need medical advice I’ll seek a doctor. You have to be EXCEPTIONALLY BRUTAL with from whom you take your advice in this world.
He’s right about paying it off ASAP. It’s not basic to operate debt free, pay cash and contribute to emergency fund and retirement.
Once you’re practicing it doesn’t matter to much but the truth is in the middle.
What if you have bad credit? How can you attend medical school with poor credit?
Student loans don’t loook at credit cause they are bankrupt proof
Dave vs Kevin. I think I felt the ground shake
Ramsey means well, and I'd've been well served to learn the basics he teaches much earlier in life and I try to briefly review them with young couples before they get married. However, once you get to a certain level, his rules aren't necessarily the answer. They break down at higher incomes, for instance. His rules will get you to upper middle class, but they are not how the very wealthy or business owners/investors (significant overlap in those categories) think about money based on my observations. The rich tend to see the $ they have as servants and they want those servants working as hard as possible. Yes, cash is king, but you need cash flow, not just cash.
Dave in this clip is pretty clueless about medicine and medical training, which is a little frustrating. I read a book about graduate education ~20 years ago that suggested that you will make so much more as an attorney, that saving up money for law school to avoid borrowing and forgoing lawyer salaries was foolish compared to borrowing $ and getting on with it. The same may be true of medicine---though, if a stable, high income is your main goal I question your motivation for studying law or medicine and not going into business.
I wouldn't take anything ramsey says seriously, ESPECIALLY for anything related to higher education.
A couple years ago Dave Ramsey had a segment on how to best manage dental school/dental school tuition debt... but confidently did so assuming that dental school was 1.5-2 years. Lost all credibility in my book after that
Yea I read his book and more appropriate for middle class people who can't pay off their 20k debt by making $20/hr.
@@Tom-ff8cv you are so wrong dood 😂hmu in 10 years let’s see where we are both at
@@brady9076 Ok, we can disagree
@@Tom-ff8cv You're full of crap. He has calls from all wide ranges of income. Most make 6 figures who call in and blow it all and wonder why they are broke. Get a clue, so you are not spreading lies.
I really appreciate your comments on the DR video, I am a huge proponent of DR principles but the medical school expense has been a real struggle for me because my state school is only $100K but I can’t get accepted there and the schools that continue to accept me are $300K plus COL and I keep trying to get accepted locally and keep getting rejected and here it’s been a few years and I am just even more miserable working in a job I hate, but here for my family. I do want to share DR is correct in that some hospitals do pay a portion of tuition as I have been offered both a 33% and a 50% tuition reimbursement by 2 different hospital systems of course with a 5-10 year promise to work for them because the hospital BOD and Foundations know me well from my employment with each of them
How did you inquire the reimbursement tho? Did you just requested or was it offered to you?
@@joshualeejiavui For one hospital asked the board of directors if there would be an incentive for me to return as a family practice doc as they have a very difficult time recruiting docs, I worked for them for 17 years so had a very positive relationship, for the other one, I inquired with their corporate office if there were any incentives for current employees pursuing medicine who would be willing to return to work for the company upon graduation and learned that yes they do have a great incentive (50% tuition paid) and I only worked for this hospital for one year and didn’t know anyone at the top
M
Yaaaaaayyyyyyy. Thank you Dr. Jubbal
A student in the middle of the class of a top tier medical school will match better than a student at the top of his class in a bottom tier medical school. The assumption is that student at a top tier medical school will be better trained with more comprehensive training and experience. That said, it is not where you start but where you end up. You may have to go thru 2 years of internal medicine or 2 years of general surgery before gaining acceptance into the specialty of choice. Elite specialties need residents who know how to take care of very sick patients.
I’m a radiologist. 4 years private practice attending salary compared to MD/phd or military pay is a laughable comparison. You are usually much better off taking on the debt unless it’s a crazy figure…300k+
agreed
There are some schools that are already at that point. I doubt you can avoid expensive schools as easily like in the past.
Patients don’t care where you went but you bet your ass the employers do.
Thank you, Dr Kevin
Indiana University for in state students, tuition $29K. No additional mandated fees or costs (of course you have to buy books and live). Harvard $71K + $6K in "mandatory fees and health insurance costs." Where you do residency and fellowship matters a lot more than where you went to med school as long as it is a decent US med school. I totally agree that Dave has NO idea what is involved in medical training. I have to laugh at Dave's "I never asked my doctor where he went to medical school." Every time I am considering a physician or my daughter is being referred to one, I look up where he or she trained, board certification, etc. and have rejected at least one referral for that reason. Guy's claimed area of practice was one that there was no evidence that he had ever trained in, and he had allowed his board certification to lapse in the field that he had been certified! I Do care a lot more about residency and fellowship than medical school though.
There's a certain point where you pretty much have to take out student loans, they are a necessary evil to a certain extent. If you go plunge yourself 100K in debt for a degree in underwater dance theory, that's on you. Every person I have ever met that works in a STEM field has taken out student loans, and everyone of them are doing fantastic in life, Doctor, engineers, nurses, RTs.
Nursing is very easy to do debt free
I agree. I'm just saying that if you do take out loans, you will more than likely have an easy time paying them back with a little budgeting.
When Dave mentioned about it not mattering what med School you went to, his example was that he never asked, meaning the average patient doesn't ask what med school he or she attended, then was going to weigh if they wanted to be treated by him or her. I've had doctors who graduated from some school I never heard of, but it didn't matter. I wasn't going to leave or tell them I wanted to see their Harvard graduates. You missed what he was specifically referring to in that excerpt.
The patients don’t determine where you get placed for residency and ultimately your earning potential.
@@2davivadiva You misunderstand.
FREE EDUCATION FOR ALL
In state tuition at some public med schools can make them a lot cheaper than the most expensive private med schools, though.
When public med schools have acceptance rates of 3%, you may not get that much of a choice.
Me living in Germany, I really don't know how you can have like 200k debt, it is just mindboggling and feels cruel as hell. In germany we have like 10k debt MAX after university/medschool etc and only if you got BAfög.
Murica
It’s called responsibility. Why should others pay for your education?
@@dog7881 Why? Systems of your countrythat make it possible.
@@94Quang Nah. I will pay my student loans because I took them out I don’t expect anyone else to pay for me that’s stupid, I’m not entitled to their money and they aren’t entitled to mine it’s simple and it’s fair. Entitlement is a lazy person’s attitude.
@@dog7881 Not Sure what your point is. I payed my student loans, every penny of it plus taxes. What i am refering to is that 200k is just outlandishly crazy sum. I really hope that the education is worth that much. Because its Not something I would persue if I was in that option cathegory.
Dave Ramsey changed my life, a few years back got my smart investor pro , living debt free, But i will admit it's not for everyone's position in life, i am a blue collar guy truck driver,for people in my blue collar world it's the way to go. But higher educated people uh maybe not, like a Doctor, or a Dentist, anyhoo just my opinion not facts.
When it comes to student loans and higher degrees, that are actually worth it, Dave is wrong imo. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with MD’s getting into 300-500k student loan debt bc they will make in one year after they become an attending. Same thing he said to a CRNA who got into 150 or 200k loan debt, she would make that in one year so of course it’s worth it but he said it’s not. What’s not worth it is getting those ridiculous degrees that are not marketable in the job market thus people end up being in debt with absolutely no job to justify it. That’s not the case for MD’s or CRNA’s. Those two are hugely marketable and highly needed.
Maybe the problem is that med school cost so much that other people outside the field have no idea but it is sort of like an investment unless you go into something saturated lol
great advice!
The medical school choice can make a big difference on your future choice in residencies and carrier. So you have to balance the cost vs the benefits. Dave understanding of the medical school process is not as strong as his financial knowledge.
Well said
Love the financial direction on the channel. I respect Dave, but man, it drives me nuts when someone acts like an expert on a topic they clearly have no clue on lol
Dave Ramsey is for people who are financially illiterate. Not having debt is a noble goal but being totally debt free your entire life is not the best advice for everyone.
Dave Ramsey's product is aimed at a demographic that are essentially financial alcoholics. The other thing to understand is that "completely correct advice" and useful advice are often two different things when dealing with human beings and changing their behavior, and Dave Ramsey has outright admitted that what his critics say is correct and when he first started that was the advice he gave and it kept producing bad outcomes. He realized that finances are just not that complicated and it wasn't financial education that was the problem, it was controlling human nature. His current advice is aimed at controlling human nature and his criticism of his critics is that his current advice is more successful in producing positive outcomes in the population that is seeking his advice than his original advice that his critics say is more accurate. He knows it is reductive, and he acts like it is not reductive because telling an alcoholic that they need to reduce their alcohol consumption instead of telling them to stop drinking results in them getting drunk again. He would be in trouble in informed consent was the rule in financial advice, but it isn't and he isn't scamming he is just aggressively shading the truth in a manner that he thinks will make people do what is in their own interest.
MD/PhD 🤣
And are there enough scholarships to go around for everyone ? 😂
med school wont make you rich rich. But you'lll still be way richer than the vast majority of people. even with the debt
@@juanleonardo3359 no
I facilitated Dave Ramsey’s “classes” at a church I once attended. His advice is so… basic? Rudimentary? Ugh. I only could justify his simplified view of debt by thinking of the classes being like for people who are to debt as some are to alcohol… they need to stay far away due to habit of abuse. He sounds so sanctimonious, but he basically is like Dr. Phil saying, “stop doing that.” Or Nancy Reagan’s “just say NO to drugs” campaign.
Most people, I believe, can control their debt and make wise decisions. They just need to be educated. I was lucky that when I was in school, we actually had mandatory classes called “careers” and “personal finance” that taught us life skills like this.
Accruing debt in order to get an education is ridiculous.
$2000/ year or even less is apt as tuition.
Honestly, a person asking Dave R. about attending " cheap " medical school is just preposterous. Where you attend medical school does really matter. I attended an average school during my Bachelor's and for Grad school went to an Ivy League. I could clearly see a difference in terms of quality of education and facilities.
The stupidest person in healthcare I've met was a nurse that graduated from Yale. She was so certain that she was a cut above that it blinded her to everything she didn't know. I've never rolled my eyes internally so hard as when listening to her literally state in front of a group that a patient couldn't have a disease because she had not heard of it. What the disease is or if the patient did or didn't have it isn't required information to know she was 100% wrong in her reasoning. The disease was the leading cause of the condition in question for hospitalized patients in the country, so an absolute horse's horse. Not something you'd want to advertise that you hadn't heard of in an arrogant manner. Or when she absolutely insisted that a particular drug with several mechanisms of action only had one and mocked the idea that it could have additional actions. I later figured out the drug reference she liked had an abridged entry for the drug. The "stupid" community college nurses who always think that pharmacy has a comically large reference for every drug and operate under the assumption that there is info they are lacking are actually the smart ones. If something matters in a corner case then it is going to matter and being blind to questioning yourself or your resources means you'll have an uphill battle compared to someone who knows a bit less but is more open to re-thinking themselves and revisiting resources. Especially in healthcare where there is enough vagaries and fudge factor for the arrogant ones to rationalize incongruities away.
@Timmy Tran You went to Ivy or community college
Listening to Dave Ransey’s condescending tone is so frustrating!
Dave wants to burn all banks.
Dave Ramsey dislikes people taking loans such as education ones to better their lives. I have listened to him and he really goes off on school loans. As much as he has helped several people, he is wrong on so many levels.
I have a dilema, I want to be a doctor so bad but I’m just so worried about future financial security in if doctors will be paid well still. Because it’s the path I want to follow but as education costs rise, I want to make sure doctors salaries will stay steady too so I don’t live my life in crippling debt.
Spend some time in SDN (Student Doctor Network) forum. If you go into primary care = $250k yearly + 25 to 50k loan repayment every year. Also lots of PCP job qualify for PSLF so if you work for 7 years out of residency in non-profit, all gov loans forgiven (look up PSLF if unaware). Or you can go into more lucrative specialty like Cardiology (450k), anesthesia (400-600k), surgery (>500k), OBGYN (400-500k), etc... I'd be more weary of the time commitment rather than financial cost. Your tech friends will be making +100k in their 20's, PA/NP will make >100k in their 20's. Meanwhile you'll be watching them live their lives as you are stuck at home studying all your 20's. Good luck!
@@Tom-ff8cv I appreciate the response! Time commitment isn’t an issue because I’m sure it’s what I want to do. Thank you!
@@peytonvogt3319 When Tom is talking about them already earning and working in their 20s-he's referencing the fact that they will be already in their financial contributions to their long term financial wellbeing- not just making a high income young, but that they will be already saving /investing for retirement through a IRA, paying back any student loans quicker and earlier with less accrued interest, etc. The time here is referencing the length of delayed financial contribution and longer interest accrual on loans.
Dr. Jubbal, do you still practice medicine?
Ramsey is not a fraud, but he’s close to it. He’s a guy with a tv show, he has 1 idea, and his advice is good for 1 type of person in 1 type of situation. Unless you are already financially established and just have too much consumer cc debt his advice is at best malpractice and at worst fraud.
From one MD to another, I think your opinions are mostly wrong. From a person in a fair amount of debt, I agree with Dave Ramsey. Paying interest on high balances is incredibly destructive.
Loan repayment options
Yes, you may get scholarships for your ethnicity, unless of course, you are European American.
Simply, it's very difficult to get in Medical School debt free without extreme privilege and Dave Ramsay is just wrong here. The ROI on medical school is the best out of any academic path.
How much debt do you have doc?
Paid it off
Thxu🙏
Well to some he is a cult has his own loans.. so watch anyone carefully. Even they say he is a christain. I know without credit growing. Can't pay off thujg expect credit to go up. .pay off what is needed. There is a trick to get credit up. Thx for this education
I think people who are in the medical expertise definitely over value school selection while those outside of it, under value it. Its probably somewhere in the middle. There's more millionaire teachers than millionaire doctors though. Doctors are notoriously poor at managing their money due to the amounts of consumer debt they "can afford" which in turn runs down their net worth.
Millionaire teachers? Where?
It absolutely does not matter where you go to medical school or where you go for undergrad. It definitely does matter where you go for residency if you’re planning on subspecialty. I went to community college. Transferred to a state school. Went to an offshore medical school and still got a residency at a university program where I later went on to fellowship. If you’re a strong candidate a real program director interested in building a solid program won’t care what fancy name is on the top of your diploma. It is also true that medical school tuition can vary by as much as 4x. I know because I paid it. Good luck to all you future physicians.
This is simply bad advice.
Where you go to undergrad or medical school can absolutely matter. Less so if you're going to primary care or subspecializing in something more attainable. Much more so if you're going for something less attainable.
As an example, if you go to a medical school that has no NSGY program, good luck getting NSGY experience, letters of rec, research, etc., and matching into a NSGY program.
@@kevinjubbalmd they’re called external rotations. You should try it out. I was able to rotate through several different institutions during my clinical training. I even did 6 months in England for general medicine and general surgery. The experience is out there.
Nothing. Like Ramsey being half right/wrong. Hopefully a doctor isn't half right on medical information
Love Dave Ramsey but when he calls his co-host phd John a Doctor it is so annoying. People who don’t work in Healthcare are so clueless lol
The root word behind doctor is one who teaches, not a physician, so (some) PhD's are the real doctors at most institutions of higher education. That said, I get your point.
@@fr.marklichtenstein8892 I understand. We in this country have and MD shortage not a phd shortage. As a nurse who has worked in the ICU, IR, Inpatient Psych in secure lock down there is NO phd. America has been so dumb down that everyone has a phd and the ‘doctors’ we need are leaving. I’ve been grateful that I have worked with awesome ‘doctors’ who are on call daily and work their a$$ off to help patients-just a pet peeve of mine.
@@travelnurseadventures3225 We probably send too many people to college, or at least before they are ready to buckle down and do the work it needs, and with all the PhD's running around who were trained to do research, there's been a tendency to change the former teacher/normal/vocational training schools into research schools, which is almost certainly a mistake. Also, if I may pick nits, I think the DO's are on track in the U.S. to be 20-25% of all med school graduates in the next year or two, hence my use of "physician" not MD (which is the abbreviation for Maryland...haha). Full disclosure: I'm starting med school at a DO institution this summer.
@@fr.marklichtenstein8892 Wishing you the best! We need DO’s!
I got into Dave Ramsey a couple years ago and watched a lot of his videos.. took me a while before realizing he's completely full of shit and most of his advice is terrible, especially for medical students.
Yeah right Junior.
@@pep590 lol ok
@@eyadhamza3147 Loser 🤪
And he's still richer than you by a whole lot😂
@@charlygutierrez9251 and older by a whole lot too smarty pants
I've asked doctors where they went to school and what their standing was in their class. I also think in the future I might ask GPA. A doctor might be offended by that, but I'd be a whole lot more offended if a doctor messed up my health from not paying enough attention in med school--or just wasn't smart enough to get it. A GPA could tell a patient a lot about a physician. The only question would be whether or not you'd get an honest answer.
I guarantee you if their passed their boards they are more than competent enough to take care of their health
Cringe
NOPE! There's far more salient markers of a strong competent physician, and undergraduate GPA or even medical school GPA aren't that at all. You're neglecting that heavy lifting of medical education for clinical application actually comes during residency and fellowship. So, if you want to see how good a physician was trained, maybe look at their residency program and their fellowship program (if they did one), see if their Board certified, and look up their HealthGrades report to get a peek into patient thoughts on the physician (though it's not reliable and can be like Yelp).
If you want to see a doctor I would stop bullying one, you’re not going to have own take care of you.
Kevin, you look tired.
Dave Ramsey has 400 million and you dont !!! too bad so sad