7 years! In the RV world it's amazing that the manufacturer was still around without having declared bankruptcy or reorganized to routinely shed liability.
A coworker of mine bought a $30k camper trailer and had nothing but trouble with it from day one. He had electrical problems, the awning was damaged, water tank leaked, and the roof leaked. It took him almost 4 years to get it all fixed, some of it he ended up doing himself just because he was tired of waiting and wanted to use it. During that 4 years, he got to use it 3 times. Every time something else went wrong with it.
You really have to be able to fix plumbing and electrical all the time. I’ve been keeping RVs on the road almost continuously for decades. They spent a couple weeks here or there for a refrigerator or generator error I couldn’t solve. It’s all cheap plumbing and crappy electrical, and the batteries need attention too. It’s not like a car where you can expect turn key service. If you do, it will be in the shop constantly.
@@ED-es2qv You are correct. I bought a used class C motorhome in 2010. I didn't pay much for it then. I have done a lot of repair myself and only paid for parts. Nonetheless, I camped in it often. It is just a work in progress. Nowadays there is an RV craze and my motorhome is worth much more than I paid for it. I guess the bottom line is even if you buy an RV new, expect to do repairs. Hence buy used.
The electrical system in travel trailers & RVs is the cheapest, most problematic, pile of garbage imaginable. There are no building codes governing materials or workmanship. The only thing to be done is to tear it all out & rebuild it according to residential building code.
When those new R.V.s have a leak in the roof, or windows, all that water, never dries up, properly, and causes mold problems, that never go away, especially if they are left outside.
@Shadow Of Wiggin Thats not the Case with a House,a Car or a RV.What you want, and what you get, are different Things.Give them 3 Times to fix it,if then they cant fix it,then you have the Right, on your Side and the Money back.Thats how its goes.
@@kallejodelbauer2955 great in theory with timely fixes...... but we don't know when we can get to it....besides the value of the product has been reduced by the damage from the leaks.
I’d like to thank those buyers for sticking to their principals and seeing this through. The ridiculous hoops they had to jump through and costs associated for consumers should clearly show the incredible bias our laws have for companies & manufacturers. It's about time.
Several of my family members have owned/own RV repair business's. The one relative in particular has become a millionaire before his 50's (with no employees) just from fixing all the little shit and big that constantly breaks on RV's. They are built SO light and SO cheaply, even on the $500,000 and up coaches, and there are SO many systems to expensively break down on these apex but worthless trophys that only a fool would buy one. But buy them in droves they do. And my family blue collar family members have gotten very wealthy fixing them. By the time you pay all the bills and costs associated with an RV, you could have bought the most expensive sports car you could find, blasted down the road at high speed, paying off speeding tickets willy nilly, stayed in the nicest hotels, ate at the finest restaurants (there are always hotels and restaurants where people take their RVs) and still come out money ahead.
@@B.H.56 I do remodeling for homeowners and can attest that whenever there's ever been a hitch or problem in a project, I always deal with the husband but 98% of the time I find out down the road that the wife was behind it. One guy even prefaced his remark to me with "I don't have to sleep with you but I have to sleep with her so even though it's not your fault, here's what has to happen." I agree that, unfortunately, the wife is usually behind most of what any husband does. Even if she's not the instigator (which she is, most of the time) almost no husband does anything without at least the wife's approval. Anyway, for the husband's part, have you ever seen the dashboard/console of motor homes? Looks like a big rig's dash board, he gets to play truck driver which, it turns out, is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to lots of guys. I sometimes drive medium size trucks and equipment and it was kind of fun at first but it lost it's luster a long time ago. I feel sad for the guys who spend their entire lives working just so they can....keep the wife from nagging and play truck driver a little when they're old and grey.
It actually is. Not only do different products/materials handle water differently, so do a lot of different building practices. Something that is built poorly can sometimes be made waterproof with premium products, but even the best built structures will leak if they use the wrong or cheap products and materials. Gaskets, silicone, calking, etc can vary widely, and sometimes the mistake might come down to human error. Hiring sub par employees for wages and working conditions that are so low they aren't motivated to do a good job. Making things waterproof is so difficult in fact, that home builders stopped trying. They focus on water diversion, products and practices that move water away from the building, which works great until you have ice build up, clogged gutters, and other drainage problems.
@@stinkwink695 Not entirely. Learning how to fight in a court system can require just as many hours of training and actual experience that specialized experts (lawyers) will cost just as much hiring professional MMA fighters as a bouncer or private security. That kind of training and experience simply doesn't come cheap, but anyone can DIY the legal system and have favorable results, but your reading comprehension and communication skills needs to be better than your footwork and right hook. I had a landlord who wouldn't fix his property, I paid my rent into escrow for a full year, at the end of it I filed a motion and got it all back, he was not happy.
That is mostly because judges go by "books". They most likely don't have common sense. They look at the "written" law and apply that over what would make sense in the real world.
@@82ndAbnVet It isn't a lack of common sense, it is a lack of courage to make precedent, the courage to stick one's nose out and stand for something, lest one's peers speak against you for making them look bad.
This report was just what people expect from your videos. Great news for consumers. At the finish of you video I went on to another but first got a Camping World ad. Lol. They ARE listening. Thanks Steve.
I would recommend to not buy a Thor motorhome, had multiple leaks, had tub of glue glued to the roof, had parts falling off within 50 miles of picking it up in Elkhart Indiana, a $92,000 custom built motorhome, they forgot to install spare tire rack and spare tire, had sand falling out of wall in bathroom and the drain for the blackwater tank was installed upside down it was pointing UP worst part is they had GLUED it in place with very good glue.
@@kallejodelbauer2955 It was a special order, flew to elkhart to pick it up on walk around everything looked good and since it wasn't raining no leaks to be seen, also can't see roof of motorhome without looking down from second story of building, the spare tire they promised to have ready later. the nightmare really began when tried to get issues FIXED, had to get a lawyer then it spent 7 months in shop as Thor would only authorize one single item at a time for repair, last time I picked it up the charging systems for engine battery and motorhome batteries stopped working, alternator dead and so was the landline hookup. Under Lemon Law I got my money back, could have gone for 3X as it was over 90 days.
Love how happy you are talking about something a lot of people think is just boring, they way you go about the videos get all of us invested and animated as well, great job as always. This is why so many criminal cases get plead out even if you are innocent, because otherwise you get to go thru the rigmarole of court, or just say guilty and pay $$ and go home.
My family and I use a tent to go camping and have all the stuff to ruff it in the woods and with that we also have to option of getting a motel room if the weather changes unexpectedly. My wife wanted an RV once and she wouldnt believe me about them so I made it a point to talk to people with her who had them and it didnt take her long to change her mind. She never admitted I was right tho. You can get into better places with a tent anyways.
Lucky for me that I'll never be wealthy enough to buy my own RV. Renting is really the way to go with these. That way, the actual buyer of the RV is a business that can more easily afford to deal with the inevitable fights with dealers and manufacturers.
Had a friend stuck in Nevada (4 week old MB RV) for 2.5 weeks when the electrical system shorted out and the repair facility couldn't figure it out. The repair facility jumpered out the area of the vehicle where the short was coming from and send them on their way home. They got one state over and it failed again. This dealer did a similar thing and they were able to limp back to Michigan.
Yay for my state doing this! Question, can dealerships get out of this by putting something in the fine print that you give up that right? They will almost have to because most RV's are built so badly. You know what you call an RV trailer built really well? A tiny house.
My dad did that in 1970.bought a retired school bus, and converted it to a motor home. However new regulations and laws have made this difficult to the point of impossible. I do not know but highly suspect because of lobbying from the RV industry.Oing what dad did, would hurt their bottom line. BTW I saw 38 states and visited national parks and historic sites as a child in a 1960 66 passenger bus with a top speed of 59 mph. It did however traverse Teton pass, and make it up to crater lake with no mechanical issues. Some of my best childhood memories in that bus!
A quarter of a million dollars, 4 miles to the gallon and thousands of dollars in repairs, maintainence and camping fees. I'll drive my car, stay at high end motels, resorts, eat at fine restaurants and enjoy many other recreational offerings and never spend just the purchase price of the RV. A bigger waste than a boat.
Some things to consider it is a lifestyle not a value proposition. As long as you understand this while it may not make financial sense it is the experience...maybe not an experience you want to have like these folks did... I have friends that are full time RVers and even with all the challenges that would not trade for anything else...yes they had their issues as well :)... But I still agree with the fact it makes no financial sense at all...
I converted an antique sailboat to be a live aboard, and it was the most cost effective decision I've ever made. No more rent, utility bills or other expenses that benefit price gouging corporations.
We bought a new Casita trailer in the fall of 2019. Built in Texas. A transport company delivered it to us in Illinois. On the day we took delivery they backed it into our garage. Due to covid and other reasons we never used it. It sat in our garage until about a month ago. I advertised it on RVTrader at the same price that I paid for it. I sold it at my price less than twelve hours later. Before I got the ad deleted from RVTrader I had received about thirty calls from people ready to send me a money order at my price if I still owned the trailer. The buyer lived less than fifty miles from Rice Texas where Casitas are manufactured. The trailer had traveled from Texas to Illinois and then back to Texas about fourteen months later. When I took a closer look at the Casita manufacturers ads on RVTrader, I found that in the fine print they were taking orders for December 2021 delivery. They apparently had their maximum manufacturing capacity sold out a year in advance. No wonder I sold ours so quickly.
Covid caused a lot of people to buy RVs to socially distance, all manufactures are behind due to sales spikes and lack of interior pieces coming from over seas. Two different people I know sold their trailers in the matter of hours, one was within minutes on Facebook. They took the ad down and still got twenty messages wanting to buy it .
Good on those folks for going the whole way! They should get a GoFundMe to reward them for their efforts. Thank you Steve for another informative video.
Great video Mr. Steve. My friends dad built an RV on a ambulance. So you had the cab of the ambulance and what looked like one of those campers you put on pickup trucks. I'm 67 tomorrow. Yay for me. Have a good day Mike.
Who determines seasonably? I'm assuming that means "reasonable" time frame. Wouldn't an "unknown" timeframe be asking the buyer to give them as much time as they want to repair? If I buy something that is defective, and that its defect is uknown to me, and the seller asks for unlimited time to repair I would want my money back too.
I worked and lived in a heavy duty trailer servicing drilling rigs. Heavy frame, heavy axles, etc. A company I once worked for bought a cheap RV and installed equipment (a gas detector and set up to look at drilling rock samples-nothing exotic). On the first job the wall separated from the floor. They reinforced the frame- way too light. Constant trouble. They simply cannot stand the simplest of stresses you find on a dirt road. If I bought an RV, I'd hunt up an old old Airstream and send to the factory to refurbish.
Do you know of a good place (online or in person) to look for used airstreams for purchase? And I do realize they do not stay on the market long and are in high demand. But I'm in no rush and have time to find what I'd like.
@@w4shep Here in Washington state, there is an Airstream Owners Only mobile home/ retirement community called Land Yacht Harbor in Thurston County. I have former in-laws who live there and they have owned multiple Airstreams. I believe the Airstream owners group is called the Wally Byum Club. Or something similar, it’s been a while since I’ve talked to them. You might be able to connect with a Facebook page for Airstream owners or a website that caters to that group. And yes, they are a much better product than the usual rvs on the road.
@@briangarrow448 This is a great place to start. Owners groups didn't occur to me. But of course for something this popular and with such an avid & loyal user base, of course they'd have owner clubs and online groups. Thanks for the lead! I’m just outside DC in Maryland, so maybe I can find something a little closer.
Did anyone comment about the consequences if they had paid substantially more and financed the purchase? They would have been "on the hook" for their payments, insurance, taxes, etc. for the entire time this went on.
My 36 foot fifth wheel, was new, in 2010. Hydraulic cylinder leaked due to plating on shaft peeling off. Selector valve on propane cylinder was bad,front slide out was loose, a.c. duct was not connected properly, rear slide was not assembled properly, slide out circuit breaker was defective. I repaired all those things and enjoyed using the camper for four years. This was a high end Keystone.
Having bought two new RV's ( 1 travel trailer and 1 5th wheel), I will never likely buy a new one again. No matter how careful you are, there will be something that goes wrong. If you don't buy it from the local dealership, your RV will sit all summer long until they decide to fix it. That is what a local dealership has told me. Since in effect you don't have a warrantee, why buy new. Just buy a two or three year old one and save some money.
On this side of the pond, we call a caravan a travel trailer or a pull behind RV. This is about something like a caravan built onto the chasis of a bus, with ability to drive it around.
I have owned several RVs (6 or 7 trailers and 1 motorhome all used) and like everything else, there are different grades/quality of the units, hence prices from cheap to crazy expensive. As with car manufactures, some are known for ok quality, and some for very high quality product. (Some times price is not the determining factor) Anyway, glad the US has got better protections in place for the RV buyers. (Hello from Canada still with no lemon laws...but here is hoping)
Hundo, unfolded, behind the Mopar box on the right side of the first shelf of the main cabinet. 383. Huh, a 383 Mopar was in my 1966 Dodge Coronet. That car was the bomb, but it ate starters like they were Cheerios for breakfast.
The RV companies would pay GM to test the bodies on our truck chassis at the GM proving grounds in Milford. We, the mechanics, hated them as we spent untold hours repairing the particle board bodies that fell apart as soon as testing began.
What I found interesting is the UCC has 2 different scenarios for buyer revocation. In most cases of a new product, I would think the second case applies where the purchase is made without any knowledge of any defects in the product. A question I have is how does 'shrink wrap' license get around the UCC?
Nearly all towables cost $22K to $28K. The reason being the components used in their manufacture that make up the majority of their cost are the same (air conditioner, furnace, refrigerator, stove, vent hood,microwave, converter, water pump, water heater, toilet, holding tanks, water tank, propane tanks, sinks, shower, outside shower, stereo system, doors, emergency egress window, propane alarm, fold out steps, crank down stabilizers, etc.). So most buyers buy way larger than they really need. The problem with these large towables is the frames are not very strong to save weight so they can still be towed by vehicles commonly owned by the buyer. This flimsy frame results in excessive flexing which literally pulls every seam apart. They constantly develop new leaks.
I don't know about that, I use to be a scout leader, and you can not believe, how hard it is, to find a modest priced tent, that does not leave everything in the tent, soaking wet, after an all night rain.
I own a 5th wheel, my brother and mother own one each as well. A new house can have the same problems as a new "RV". We can fix the problems just like you would on a house. I will bet the amount of defective new "RVs" is less than .01%
@@mercdragons As a contractor that delivers brand new units from the manufacturer to the dealer, I can assure you, the exact opposite is true. The non defective amount is .01% in a good year
My dad bought a 31' travel trailer in 1970, used it for 3 years. Sold it to my brother who used it for 2 years before he let me stay in it for 6 months.. The only thing I now of that went wrong with it during this time was the fridge stopped getting cold. My brother and I took it out and turned it upside down for 1 day and reinstalled it and it was still working when he sold it. "Ideal" was the brand if you care.
I guess the RV industry isn't too bright, they need to learn from the auto industry. The shop is the most profitable area for an auto dealership. Probably isn't relevant for manufacturer defects though!
Any time an RV is purchased, new or used, dealership of private property, it is best practice to hire an RVIA Certified RV Inspector. Money well spent. He/she can identify problems prior to sale, put a price on said repair. RVs are complicated machinery many times shoddily built and then vibrated down the road and expecting glue, caulk, and staples to hold it together. Seriously!
AZ has a rv repair channel this winnebago had a poly skin and wood for the exterior walls. A leak that damages the outer skin with those ridiculous graphics could cost $10k-25k.
In my case (Utah family law not consumer), it took 4 years from the date we got a written ruling in district court (6 months from case being heard) to be heard by the Utah appeals court. $8,000 in transcription fees later and 9 months I won my appeal and was granted a new judge and option to restart the case in its entirety. Me being a father in Utah was an uphill battle by itself and was told numerous times “this is the best it’s going to be”, but proving I have only ever had my kiddos best interests in mind in numerous regards helped, but in the long run both parties spending gobs amount of money was enough for the other party to settle. It’s patience, time and money, that’s why it takes so long to get justice, reasonable minds (panel of judges) to look at things and say wait a minute, this isn’t right.
Steve Lehto, I don't know if this is something you can, or would feel comfortable putting a cash value on; but what would you estimate this process might have cost the client in legal expenses?
My uncle finally retired after having beaten Hodgkin’s lymphoma, so he and my aunt spent a great deal of their retirement money to buy their brand new dream RV. It was a nightmare. Every single time they used it, they had to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to make repairs on it. Brake lines, roof leaks, leak in windshield, slide out motor burned out, refrigeration problems, door rot, sag in floor, water line issues. Always something. Always. Im so glad these people received a modicum of justice.
Good on the plaintiffs for going forward with the case. Solid precedent, at least in IL. My dad owns an RV (class A) that he bought in IL. Nothing to return it to the dealer for though...as it's several years old. Only thing majorly wrong with it is the fridge...it stopped working while he was living in it. He's kept it in good shape because he is a handy guy (engineer). He would rather fix it if he can than take it to an unreliable dealer. I think he only ever took it to a dealer for repairs once...and that was the manufacturer of the component that was non-functional...not the actual dealer he bought it from. I would say the only thing he hates about it is the payment he has to make on it. For reasons that is quite a burden on him right now. I think it's good advice to tell people not to buy them. I would say the only time you should buy them is if you are handy like my dad is...and can take care of problems that come up. Even then you must be prepared to deal with the problems if they come up, and that includes dealing with the bullshit from unprepared dealers when necessary.
02:15 They aren't the same for legal purposes. Lemon law in New Jersey covers the vehicle portion of an RV, which doesn't exist for a towed trailer. I'm sure it's different in other states as well.
I think a more likely reform will be a requirement for dealers to issue written warnings about quality issues. It’s amazing how much actual commercial tour busses cost. Getting these things to work reliably costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
So the case originated on 2014 and just now got remanded. Hypothetically, what if the dealership that originally sold the RV is no longer in business. Does the buyer use this ruling to go after the manufacturer or do they have to start all over again with a new suit filed against the manufacturer?
Good thing it wasn't a $200,000 RV! Maybe they figured since they only invested $26,000, they could help others with this, if they won; and they did! God bless them! Does the manufacturer have to pay all their legal fees since the original lawsuit?
hey mr steve..could you please explain what a hostile witness and when the lawyer asks can he treat the witness as a hostile witness what does all that mean and how does a hostile witness differ from just a witness and how does a witness become a hostile witness... boy i sure hope you understand what i am asking with what i wrote out!!!!!lololololololol thans
I saw a factory video on a name brand RV manufacturer on uTubbe. Saying they are poorly built is an understatement. RVs are not built; they are thrown together.
From what I gathered from the story, all of that litigation may have been avoided if the manufacturer had said something like this 'we will work on this and have it back to you ASAP, like within a week and we will water test it'. But apparently the manufacturer had a poor business attitude and said 'we don't know when we can fix this'. At that point I would also take this as the manufacturer saying 'get lost and don't bother me anymore'.
I’m hoping this wicks up to the manufacturers. Would a dealership be considered a consumer and therefore a dealer in IL who wanted to perform very thorough PPIs could revoke their acceptance of a defective RV in their floor plan?
In my wandering vagabond traveling construction hand, 1st travel trailer was junk. Learned a lot about trailers. Used that knowledge to INTENSLY scrutinize the trailer I traded it in for and drug that SOB all over the country between 2004 thru 2012 and lived in it full time. Still own it and thinking about doing some axle and brake maintenance, new tires and going on one last world tour before retirement. Best investment I ever made. No bugs and it didn't smell like curry powder. Lots of interesting people to meet more than makes up for no cable TV. And you get to carry SO much more stuff than you can pack in and out of a motel room
Steve, now that the court has made this decision is it possible that dealers and or manufactures will put something in the purchasing agreement that will eliminate this decision? Something like "buyer must allow up to 1 year for repairs" or "cannot revoke acceptance of RV if repairs are offered to be completed within 1 year"? I know the phrasing of the question is not correct but in your "don't buy an RV" video you stated how the dealers can hide language in the mountain of paperwork they give you. Is there language about this they can hide? Thanks for the video!!!!
That or simply buying a Box Van like a older Sprinter or larger Ford Van and outfitting it yourself seems to be quite popular. People did it with old VW Vans back in the day, I'm understanding more so why folks just do the work themselves now.
Moral of this story....save yourself from creating your own nightmare. When I decide that I want to purchase anything of significant value these days, I spend 6 months, to a YEAR, familiarizing myself with it. As well as any of it's close competitors in the industry. Where its made. How its made. Who its made by, and how long they've been in business. The rate of Moore's law on it's price point for all models the previous year (for electronic items, such as drones, thermal imagers, etc). And what the industry is going to be introducing for the next model year. Seems like a lot of work, time spent, and basically a huge PITA, huh? Try sitting in a leaky RV, or in court, for a DAY. I've found this method to be a pleasure, in comparison. One last thing...Amazon (whether you buy from them, or not), can provide a good starting point for smaller items. I've found them to be invaluable for determining an item's "weak point", or "draw back", in it's inherent design, if there are any. Look up any item, and go straight to the one star reviews, regardless of total stars on the item. I've also found that any item with a one star rating over the 6% threshold , is a non buy for me. Whether it has 20 reviews, or 2000.
I sincerely enjoy hearing Steve explain law. He makes it fascinating and interesting while at the same time connecting it to the lives of people.
I was going to make almost the same comment. He makes bearable, even pleasant, that which is usually on the cusp of if not entirely unbearable.
Lehto for MI guvner
Those people are brave and/or deep pockets and I love the fact that they set a good precedent.
Yes. The whole thing is fascinating.
7 years! In the RV world it's amazing that the manufacturer was still around without having declared bankruptcy or reorganized to routinely shed liability.
A coworker of mine bought a $30k camper trailer and had nothing but trouble with it from day one. He had electrical problems, the awning was damaged, water tank leaked, and the roof leaked. It took him almost 4 years to get it all fixed, some of it he ended up doing himself just because he was tired of waiting and wanted to use it. During that 4 years, he got to use it 3 times. Every time something else went wrong with it.
You really have to be able to fix plumbing and electrical all the time. I’ve been keeping RVs on the road almost continuously for decades. They spent a couple weeks here or there for a refrigerator or generator error I couldn’t solve.
It’s all cheap plumbing and crappy electrical, and the batteries need attention too.
It’s not like a car where you can expect turn key service. If you do, it will be in the shop constantly.
@@ED-es2qv You are correct. I bought a used class C motorhome in 2010. I didn't pay much for it then. I have done a lot of repair myself and only paid for parts. Nonetheless, I camped in it often. It is just a work in progress. Nowadays there is an RV craze and my motorhome is worth much more than I paid for it. I guess the bottom line is
even if you buy an RV new, expect to do repairs. Hence buy used.
Yup, I have one of those too. A money/time pit for very little enjoyment.
The electrical system in travel trailers & RVs is the cheapest, most problematic, pile of garbage imaginable.
There are no building codes governing materials or workmanship.
The only thing to be done is to tear it all out & rebuild it according to residential building code.
at 10k each use it's cheaper to rent one
When those new R.V.s have a leak in the roof, or windows, all that water, never dries up, properly, and causes mold problems, that never go away, especially if they are left outside.
@Shadow Of Wiggin
Thats not the Case with a House,a Car
or a RV.What you want, and what you get,
are different Things.Give them 3 Times to fix it,if then they cant fix it,then you have the Right, on your Side and the Money back.Thats how its goes.
@@kallejodelbauer2955 great in theory with timely fixes...... but we don't know when we can get to it....besides the value of the product has been reduced by the damage from the leaks.
I’d like to thank those buyers for sticking to their principals and seeing this through. The ridiculous hoops they had to jump through and costs associated for consumers should clearly show the incredible bias our laws have for companies & manufacturers.
It's about time.
Several of my family members have owned/own RV repair business's. The one relative in particular has become a millionaire before his 50's (with no employees) just from fixing all the little shit and big that constantly breaks on RV's. They are built SO light and SO cheaply, even on the $500,000 and up coaches, and there are SO many systems to expensively break down on these apex but worthless trophys that only a fool would buy one. But buy them in droves they do. And my family blue collar family members have gotten very wealthy fixing them.
By the time you pay all the bills and costs associated with an RV, you could have bought the most expensive sports car you could find, blasted down the road at high speed, paying off speeding tickets willy nilly, stayed in the nicest hotels, ate at the finest restaurants (there are always hotels and restaurants where people take their RVs) and still come out money ahead.
I am convinced that 90% of RV sales are attributable to a wife who does not want to sleep in a bed that someone else has slept in. Prove me wrong.
@@B.H.56 I do remodeling for homeowners and can attest that whenever there's ever been a hitch or problem in a project, I always deal with the husband but 98% of the time I find out down the road that the wife was behind it. One guy even prefaced his remark to me with "I don't have to sleep with you but I have to sleep with her so even though it's not your fault, here's what has to happen."
I agree that, unfortunately, the wife is usually behind most of what any husband does. Even if she's not the instigator (which she is, most of the time) almost no husband does anything without at least the wife's approval. Anyway, for the husband's part, have you ever seen the dashboard/console of motor homes? Looks like a big rig's dash board, he gets to play truck driver which, it turns out, is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to lots of guys. I sometimes drive medium size trucks and equipment and it was kind of fun at first but it lost it's luster a long time ago. I feel sad for the guys who spend their entire lives working just so they can....keep the wife from nagging and play truck driver a little when they're old and grey.
@@mattobermiller5041 Simple don’t get married…I made that mistake and she got booted out the house in the middle of winter.
Seems like rolling timeshares.
Always nice to hear stories in which people persevere based on principle and eventually achieve their desired outcome.
Great when people with money are willing to fight for their rights, we all benefit. Couldn’t be that hard to make a water proof box.
It actually is. Not only do different products/materials handle water differently, so do a lot of different building practices.
Something that is built poorly can sometimes be made waterproof with premium products, but even the best built structures will leak if they use the wrong or cheap products and materials. Gaskets, silicone, calking, etc can vary widely, and sometimes the mistake might come down to human error. Hiring sub par employees for wages and working conditions that are so low they aren't motivated to do a good job. Making things waterproof is so difficult in fact, that home builders stopped trying. They focus on water diversion, products and practices that move water away from the building, which works great until you have ice build up, clogged gutters, and other drainage problems.
@@Remrie As a Home Inspector you are correct.
Nah they just set up the rules so only people with money can fight for their rights.
@@stinkwink695 exactly, that’s a problem with our system.
@@stinkwink695 Not entirely. Learning how to fight in a court system can require just as many hours of training and actual experience that specialized experts (lawyers) will cost just as much hiring professional MMA fighters as a bouncer or private security. That kind of training and experience simply doesn't come cheap, but anyone can DIY the legal system and have favorable results, but your reading comprehension and communication skills needs to be better than your footwork and right hook. I had a landlord who wouldn't fix his property, I paid my rent into escrow for a full year, at the end of it I filed a motion and got it all back, he was not happy.
It's a sad thing you have to work for so many years to explain to a judge what right and wrong is.
That is mostly because judges go by "books". They most likely don't have common sense. They look at the "written" law and apply that over what would make sense in the real world.
@@82ndAbnVet It isn't a lack of common sense, it is a lack of courage to make precedent, the courage to stick one's nose out and stand for something, lest one's peers speak against you for making them look bad.
This report was just what people expect from your videos. Great news for consumers. At the finish of you video I went on to another but first got a Camping World ad. Lol. They ARE listening. Thanks Steve.
I would recommend to not buy a Thor motorhome, had multiple leaks, had tub of glue glued to the roof, had parts falling off within 50 miles of picking it up in Elkhart Indiana, a $92,000 custom built motorhome, they forgot to install spare tire rack and spare tire, had sand falling out of wall in bathroom and the drain for the blackwater tank was installed upside down it was pointing UP worst part is they had GLUED it in place with very good glue.
And you dont inspect the RV before Paying?
I would check anything out ,and if they had
make Fail, i didnt pay them, before all is Clear.
@@kallejodelbauer2955 It was a special order, flew to elkhart to pick it up on walk around everything looked good and since it wasn't raining no leaks to be seen, also can't see roof of motorhome without looking down from second story of building, the spare tire they promised to have ready later. the nightmare really began when tried to get issues FIXED, had to get a lawyer then it spent 7 months in shop as Thor would only authorize one single item at a time for repair, last time I picked it up the charging systems for engine battery and motorhome batteries stopped working, alternator dead and so was the landline hookup. Under Lemon Law I got my money back, could have gone for 3X as it was over 90 days.
@@ghostshadow9046 should have gone for 3x
Love how happy you are talking about something a lot of people think is just boring, they way you go about the videos get all of us invested and animated as well, great job as always. This is why so many criminal cases get plead out even if you are innocent, because otherwise you get to go thru the rigmarole of court, or just say guilty and pay $$ and go home.
My family and I use a tent to go camping and have all the stuff to ruff it in the woods and with that we also have to option of getting a motel room if the weather changes unexpectedly. My wife wanted an RV once and she wouldnt believe me about them so I made it a point to talk to people with her who had them and it didnt take her long to change her mind. She never admitted I was right tho. You can get into better places with a tent anyways.
Lucky for me that I'll never be wealthy enough to buy my own RV. Renting is really the way to go with these. That way, the actual buyer of the RV is a business that can more easily afford to deal with the inevitable fights with dealers and manufacturers.
Had a friend stuck in Nevada (4 week old MB RV) for 2.5 weeks when the electrical system shorted out and the repair facility couldn't figure it out. The repair facility jumpered out the area of the vehicle where the short was coming from and send them on their way home. They got one state over and it failed again. This dealer did a similar thing and they were able to limp back to Michigan.
Yay for my state doing this! Question, can dealerships get out of this by putting something in the fine print that you give up that right? They will almost have to because most RV's are built so badly. You know what you call an RV trailer built really well? A tiny house.
All RV's are defective.
You’re better off buying a tall cargo van and create you own studio apartment.
That there Clark, is an RV.
Buy a van and build it out the way you like money better spent 🤔
Or an old bus.
My dad did that in 1970.bought a retired school bus, and converted it to a motor home. However new regulations and laws have made this difficult to the point of impossible. I do not know but highly suspect because of lobbying from the RV industry.Oing what dad did, would hurt their bottom line. BTW I saw 38 states and visited national parks and historic sites as a child in a 1960 66 passenger bus with a top speed of 59 mph. It did however traverse Teton pass, and make it up to crater lake with no mechanical issues. Some of my best childhood memories in that bus!
A quarter of a million dollars, 4 miles to the gallon and thousands of dollars in repairs, maintainence and camping fees.
I'll drive my car, stay at high end motels, resorts, eat at fine restaurants and enjoy many other recreational offerings and never spend just the purchase price of the RV. A bigger waste than a boat.
Not if it's in lieu of rent.
1k a year for plates, dont forget
Some things to consider it is a lifestyle not a value proposition. As long as you understand this while it may not make financial sense it is the experience...maybe not an experience you want to have like these folks did... I have friends that are full time RVers and even with all the challenges that would not trade for anything else...yes they had their issues as well :)... But I still agree with the fact it makes no financial sense at all...
I converted an antique sailboat to be a live aboard, and it was the most cost effective decision I've ever made.
No more rent, utility bills or other expenses that benefit price gouging corporations.
I converted a school bus. Managed 10mpg so far.
We bought a new Casita trailer in the fall of 2019. Built in Texas. A transport company delivered it to us in Illinois. On the day we took delivery they backed it into our garage. Due to covid and other reasons we never used it. It sat in our garage until about a month ago. I advertised it on RVTrader at the same price that I paid for it. I sold it at my price less than twelve hours later. Before I got the ad deleted from RVTrader I had received about thirty calls from people ready to send me a money order at my price if I still owned the trailer. The buyer lived less than fifty miles from Rice Texas where Casitas are manufactured. The trailer had traveled from Texas to Illinois and then back to Texas about fourteen months later. When I took a closer look at the Casita manufacturers ads on RVTrader, I found that in the fine print they were taking orders for December 2021 delivery. They apparently had their maximum manufacturing capacity sold out a year in advance. No wonder I sold ours so quickly.
Covid caused a lot of people to buy RVs to socially distance, all manufactures are behind due to sales spikes and lack of interior pieces coming from over seas. Two different people I know sold their trailers in the matter of hours, one was within minutes on Facebook. They took the ad down and still got twenty messages wanting to buy it .
Good on those folks for going the whole way! They should get a GoFundMe to reward them for their efforts. Thank you Steve for another informative video.
Great video Mr. Steve. My friends dad built an RV on a ambulance. So you had the cab of the ambulance and what looked like one of those campers you put on pickup trucks. I'm 67 tomorrow. Yay for me. Have a good day Mike.
I admire their will to keep going.
Ben behind the MOPAR block.
Who determines seasonably? I'm assuming that means "reasonable" time frame. Wouldn't an "unknown" timeframe be asking the buyer to give them as much time as they want to repair? If I buy something that is defective, and that its defect is uknown to me, and the seller asks for unlimited time to repair I would want my money back too.
When there are good consumer protection laws it is amazing how quickly manufacturing companies find ways to improve their quality controls.
I worked and lived in a heavy duty trailer servicing drilling rigs. Heavy frame, heavy axles, etc. A company I once worked for bought a cheap RV and installed equipment (a gas detector and set up to look at drilling rock samples-nothing exotic). On the first job the wall separated from the floor. They reinforced the frame- way too light. Constant trouble. They simply cannot stand the simplest of stresses you find on a dirt road. If I bought an RV, I'd hunt up an old old Airstream and send to the factory to refurbish.
Love my airstream, no refurb needed
Do you know of a good place (online or in person) to look for used airstreams for purchase?
And I do realize they do not stay on the market long and are in high demand. But I'm in no rush and have time to find what I'd like.
@@w4shep Here in Washington state, there is an Airstream Owners Only mobile home/ retirement community called Land Yacht Harbor in Thurston County. I have former in-laws who live there and they have owned multiple Airstreams. I believe the Airstream owners group is called the Wally Byum Club. Or something similar, it’s been a while since I’ve talked to them. You might be able to connect with a Facebook page for Airstream owners or a website that caters to that group.
And yes, they are a much better product than the usual rvs on the road.
@@briangarrow448 This is a great place to start. Owners groups didn't occur to me. But of course for something this popular and with such an avid & loyal user base, of course they'd have owner clubs and online groups. Thanks for the lead! I’m just outside DC in Maryland, so maybe I can find something a little closer.
happiest day in your life: day you buy an RV, the day you sell an RV, and the day the cout forces the manufacturer to take it back.
Did anyone comment about the consequences if they had paid substantially more and financed the purchase? They would have been "on the hook" for their payments, insurance, taxes, etc. for the entire time this went on.
My 36 foot fifth wheel, was new, in 2010. Hydraulic cylinder leaked due to plating on shaft peeling off. Selector valve on propane cylinder was bad,front slide out was loose, a.c. duct was not connected properly, rear slide was not assembled properly, slide out circuit breaker was defective. I repaired all those things and enjoyed using the camper for four years. This was a high end Keystone.
Watch the game damit!
Having bought two new RV's ( 1 travel trailer and 1 5th wheel), I will never likely buy a new one again. No matter how careful you are, there will be something that goes wrong. If you don't buy it from the local dealership, your RV will sit all summer long until they decide to fix it. That is what a local dealership has told me. Since in effect you don't have a warrantee, why buy new. Just buy a two or three year old one and save some money.
Ooh, you mean a Caravan.
On this side of the pond, we call a caravan a travel trailer or a pull behind RV.
This is about something like a caravan built onto the chasis of a bus, with ability to drive it around.
I have owned several RVs (6 or 7 trailers and 1 motorhome all used) and like everything else, there are different grades/quality of the units, hence prices from cheap to crazy expensive. As with car manufactures, some are known for ok quality, and some for very high quality product. (Some times price is not the determining factor) Anyway, glad the US has got better protections in place for the RV buyers. (Hello from Canada still with no lemon laws...but here is hoping)
I wonder how many of those justices have had to deal with their own or a family member’s RV? Their in the income bracket to have bought a “nice” one.
Hundo, unfolded, behind the Mopar box on the right side of the first shelf of the main cabinet. 383. Huh, a 383 Mopar was in my 1966 Dodge Coronet. That car was the bomb, but it ate starters like they were Cheerios for breakfast.
Ha! Actually saw this one! Whoo hoo!
1976 airstream for 2k, couple of hundred in maintenance, solid and tight, buy a classic they were built to last
The RV companies would pay GM to test the bodies on our truck chassis at the GM proving grounds in Milford. We, the mechanics, hated them as we spent untold hours repairing the particle board bodies that fell apart as soon as testing began.
Steve,
What happened in the epilogue to Crazy Town? Want to see the rest of the story.
I'll second that. Maybe you should look at the law school the lawyer went to, it's the same one as your favorite judge.
I’d like to know what happened to the other attorney.
Wow, the rare good news. Usually us consumers only get further and further into screwed-ville.
What a nice story...Incredible they had the fortitude to fight that long. I wonder how much the judgement was?
What I found interesting is the UCC has 2 different scenarios for buyer revocation. In most cases of a new product, I would think the second case applies where the purchase is made without any knowledge of any defects in the product.
A question I have is how does 'shrink wrap' license get around the UCC?
Justice delayed is justice denied.
Dang! I REALLY want to go buy an RV! /sarc
That said, I have rented one a couple of times, for trips to the beach on the Gulf Coast.
Nearly all towables cost $22K to $28K. The reason being the components used in their manufacture that make up the majority of their cost are the same (air conditioner, furnace, refrigerator, stove, vent hood,microwave, converter, water pump, water heater, toilet, holding tanks, water tank, propane tanks, sinks, shower, outside shower, stereo system, doors, emergency egress window, propane alarm, fold out steps, crank down stabilizers, etc.). So most buyers buy way larger than they really need. The problem with these large towables is the frames are not very strong to save weight so they can still be towed by vehicles commonly owned by the buyer. This flimsy frame results in excessive flexing which literally pulls every seam apart. They constantly develop new leaks.
You have a better chance of a better camping trip in a tent from all Steve has told us in many videos
A decent hotel is much cheaper than any RV.
I don't know about that, I use to be a scout leader, and you can not believe, how hard it is, to find a modest priced tent, that does not leave everything in the tent, soaking wet, after an all night rain.
I own a 5th wheel, my brother and mother own one each as well. A new house can have the same problems as a new "RV". We can fix the problems just like you would on a house. I will bet the amount of defective new "RVs" is less than
.01%
@@johncrunk8038 Hotels can be cheaper than daily campsite rentals.
@@mercdragons As a contractor that delivers brand new units from the manufacturer to the dealer, I can assure you, the exact opposite is true. The non defective amount is .01% in a good year
My dad bought a 31' travel trailer in 1970, used it for 3 years. Sold it to my brother who used it for 2 years before he let me stay in it for 6 months.. The only thing I now of that went wrong with it during this time was the fridge stopped getting cold. My brother and I took it out and turned it upside down for 1 day and reinstalled it and it was still working when he sold it. "Ideal" was the brand if you care.
I guess the RV industry isn't too bright, they need to learn from the auto industry. The shop is the most profitable area for an auto dealership. Probably isn't relevant for manufacturer defects though!
Why would they care if they aren't too bright when they've been doing this forever and people keep buying.
Worked in an RV shop that was exactly that; most money was made from repairing, often from other dealer’s defective products.
Any time an RV is purchased, new or used, dealership of private property, it is best practice to hire an RVIA Certified RV Inspector.
Money well spent.
He/she can identify problems prior to sale, put a price on said repair.
RVs are complicated machinery many times shoddily built and then vibrated down the road and expecting glue, caulk, and staples to hold it together.
Seriously!
Most of the potential problems are hidden between wall, ceilings, insulation, ect. Very little of potential problems are right out in the open.
most RV buyers know this you said ,but great you let people know who has never bought one ,great job steve !
And the lesson is, don’t buy an RV until this is fully settled.
Imagine being the RV dealer that just had to fight this against people who clearly intended to pursue it and ruined it for them all.
The RV dealer is the innocent in this - caught between faulty manufacturer and unhappy customer.
@@aebalc The dealer could have taken it back at any time, they didn't want to.
@@Maziwrath Yep. If they would have caved in and taken it back, the case would have been moot, and no precedent set. They screwed their industry.
Rent first, don't buy first, unless you have the commitment to go as long and far as these folks did. Props to them.
My fav rv was a pop up tent in the bed of my pick up
"Le Rouge"! Way to go Steve.
AZ has a rv repair channel this winnebago had a poly skin and wood for the exterior walls. A leak that damages the outer skin with those ridiculous graphics could cost $10k-25k.
Because of you I want to buy a 70's GMC Motorhome. At least I expect it to have problems, but that's because of its age.
Good luck finding one - they're actually very popular and some have done excellent jobs refurbishing them.
Are there lemon laws for semis that have cabins which are basically an RV?
I really enjoy the videos! thanks for all the hard work. well done!
In my case (Utah family law not consumer), it took 4 years from the date we got a written ruling in district court (6 months from case being heard) to be heard by the Utah appeals court. $8,000 in transcription fees later and 9 months I won my appeal and was granted a new judge and option to restart the case in its entirety. Me being a father in Utah was an uphill battle by itself and was told numerous times “this is the best it’s going to be”, but proving I have only ever had my kiddos best interests in mind in numerous regards helped, but in the long run both parties spending gobs amount of money was enough for the other party to settle.
It’s patience, time and money, that’s why it takes so long to get justice, reasonable minds (panel of judges) to look at things and say wait a minute, this isn’t right.
Steve Lehto, I don't know if this is something you can, or would feel comfortable putting a cash value on; but what would you estimate this process might have cost the client in legal expenses?
The good news is that they can recover them from the defendants. If they had not won, I suspect all the litigation could easily approach $100K.
Yup. I live in Illinois. The "Tip of the spear" at lagging behind the times.
👍😇✌
Thanks Steve
And the RV industry lobbiest will be working overtime till they get this wording changed in this law...
Especially since the CEO of Camping World lives in Illinois. Lol
My uncle finally retired after having beaten Hodgkin’s lymphoma, so he and my aunt spent a great deal of their retirement money to buy their brand new dream RV. It was a nightmare. Every single time they used it, they had to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to make repairs on it. Brake lines, roof leaks, leak in windshield, slide out motor burned out, refrigeration problems, door rot, sag in floor, water line issues. Always something. Always. Im so glad these people received a modicum of justice.
Thank You & Ms. Heather!
Posting on Facebook...
I absolutely LOVE your 'outro" comment!! My ex-wife has been giving me those gifts for YEARS!!!
Good on the plaintiffs for going forward with the case. Solid precedent, at least in IL.
My dad owns an RV (class A) that he bought in IL. Nothing to return it to the dealer for though...as it's several years old. Only thing majorly wrong with it is the fridge...it stopped working while he was living in it. He's kept it in good shape because he is a handy guy (engineer). He would rather fix it if he can than take it to an unreliable dealer. I think he only ever took it to a dealer for repairs once...and that was the manufacturer of the component that was non-functional...not the actual dealer he bought it from. I would say the only thing he hates about it is the payment he has to make on it. For reasons that is quite a burden on him right now.
I think it's good advice to tell people not to buy them. I would say the only time you should buy them is if you are handy like my dad is...and can take care of problems that come up. Even then you must be prepared to deal with the problems if they come up, and that includes dealing with the bullshit from unprepared dealers when necessary.
I worked on rv chassis for a few years, believe Mr. Lehto, don't buy an rv!
02:15 They aren't the same for legal purposes. Lemon law in New Jersey covers the vehicle portion of an RV, which doesn't exist for a towed trailer. I'm sure it's different in other states as well.
I would just drop Lehtos name on the dealer, hey it worked once.
The High Court Judges must have watched Lehto's Law video 'Do Not Buy an RV'
Who will have to pay for Layers costs and Court costs? Can they get it back?
Lawyer's costs.
Sounds like dealers will need to actually make effective repairs, and possibly have quality requirements from the manufacturer.
I think a more likely reform will be a requirement for dealers to issue written warnings about quality issues.
It’s amazing how much actual commercial tour busses cost.
Getting these things to work reliably costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
So the case originated on 2014 and just now got remanded. Hypothetically, what if the dealership that originally sold the RV is no longer in business. Does the buyer use this ruling to go after the manufacturer or do they have to start all over again with a new suit filed against the manufacturer?
Good thing it wasn't a $200,000 RV! Maybe they figured since they only invested $26,000, they could help others with this, if they won; and they did! God bless them!
Does the manufacturer have to pay all their legal fees since the original lawsuit?
Could a lawyer in Texas (or any other state) reference this SC decision in Illinois to support a similar revocation of acceptance case?
Ben behind the Mopar box.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for people that buy RVs. God bless America!
"It's not about the money, it's about sending a message."
hey mr steve..could you please explain what a hostile witness and when the lawyer asks can he treat the witness as a hostile witness what does all that mean and how does a hostile witness differ from just a witness and how does a witness become a hostile witness... boy i sure hope you understand what i am asking with what i wrote out!!!!!lololololololol thans
I saw a factory video on a name brand RV manufacturer on uTubbe. Saying they are poorly built is an understatement. RVs are not built; they are thrown together.
Dang, I can be a lawyer. Calk takes 2 to 10 days to CURE.
Just buy a little cabin Up North. Cheaper and better. And buy a moving van. Put a steel bunk bed and a portable toilet in it.
Somebody had to fight for these buyers!!
From what I gathered from the story, all of that litigation may have been avoided if the manufacturer had said something like this 'we will work on this and have it back to you ASAP, like within a week and we will water test it'. But apparently the manufacturer had a poor business attitude and said 'we don't know when we can fix this'. At that point I would also take this as the manufacturer saying 'get lost and don't bother me anymore'.
Just for the record, it was a motorhome according to the article I found, even though it isn't relevant.
Thank you.
I’m hoping this wicks up to the manufacturers. Would a dealership be considered a consumer and therefore a dealer in IL who wanted to perform very thorough PPIs could revoke their acceptance of a defective RV in their floor plan?
In my wandering vagabond traveling construction hand, 1st travel trailer was junk. Learned a lot about trailers. Used that knowledge to INTENSLY scrutinize the trailer I traded it in for and drug that SOB all over the country between 2004 thru 2012 and lived in it full time. Still own it and thinking about doing some axle and brake maintenance, new tires and going on one last world tour before retirement.
Best investment I ever made. No bugs and it didn't smell like curry powder. Lots of interesting people to meet more than makes up for no cable TV.
And you get to carry SO much more stuff than you can pack in and out of a motel room
Steve, now that the court has made this decision is it possible that dealers and or manufactures will put something in the purchasing agreement that will eliminate this decision? Something like "buyer must allow up to 1 year for repairs" or "cannot revoke acceptance of RV if repairs are offered to be completed within 1 year"? I know the phrasing of the question is not correct but in your "don't buy an RV" video you stated how the dealers can hide language in the mountain of paperwork they give you. Is there language about this they can hide? Thanks for the video!!!!
Steve, but it's a design defect lol. Any word on what happened to that case ?
But what do they consider reasonable time to cure I mean they could play that out for years
If you buy any type of RV you are A fool. Buy a used unit from a private owner at great savings and be prepared to do extensive repairs.
That or simply buying a Box Van like a older Sprinter or larger Ford Van and outfitting it yourself seems to be quite popular. People did it with old VW Vans back in the day, I'm understanding more so why folks just do the work themselves now.
"You bought a big thing!' 😂😂😂
That’s a superb owl sign you have there.
Hey Steve, Do you have any updates on this case! It would be Great too hear about any updates!
Steve "You bought a big thing" Lehto
Moral of this story....save yourself from creating your own nightmare. When I decide that I want to purchase anything of significant value these days, I spend 6 months, to a YEAR, familiarizing myself with it. As well as any of it's close competitors in the industry. Where its made. How its made. Who its made by, and how long they've been in business. The rate of Moore's law on it's price point for all models the previous year (for electronic items, such as drones, thermal imagers, etc). And what the industry is going to be introducing for the next model year.
Seems like a lot of work, time spent, and basically a huge PITA, huh? Try sitting in a leaky RV, or in court, for a DAY. I've found this method to be a pleasure, in comparison.
One last thing...Amazon (whether you buy from them, or not), can provide a good starting point for smaller items. I've found them to be invaluable for determining an item's "weak point", or "draw back", in it's inherent design, if there are any. Look up any item, and go straight to the one star reviews, regardless of total stars on the item. I've also found that any item with a one star rating over the 6% threshold , is a non buy for me. Whether it has 20 reviews, or 2000.