Wheels Up: What’s Behind the Crisis at the Private Flight Provider? - AIN
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- AIN reporter Mark Huber has been closely following the significant financial problems unfolding at Wheels Up, resulting in the recent resignation of CEO and founder Kenny Dichter. We asked Mark to talk us through the roots of these problems, what they could mean for Wheels Up customers, and whether the fallout could be felt in the wider business aviation industry.
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Business School first year lesson: Growth is easy. Profitable growth is hard.
This interview is all wrong. The actual business model was “gather as much cash as you can and the CEO takes as much as he can and leaves.”
Mission accomplished.
I can tell you.
- high cost of training pilots (that leave before cost is recouped).
- high cost of paying pilots to be close to avg wage.
- scheduling issues due to high pilot turnover.
- Sales dept over-promising services.
- Infuriating clients by failing to meet promised services causing them to leave.
- lost profits due to paying 3rd party 135 ops to fill in flights they have booked by have no plane or crew for.
- unhappy staff from getting yelled at by unhappy customers for poor service.
Basically poor business practices.
Bingo!...In addition to all of that, I would bet my last nickel that "other" costs have increased. Landing fees, Hangar space, Ramp fees, Maintenance away from base, De-icing, Flight attendant on larger aircraft, and Catering. A few peanut butter sandwiches ordered for the clients in OKK is one thing, but order those same items in PSP, or HPN and the credit card will melt! There is NOTHING "low cost" in aviation!
I was an operator. The amount of flights we covered for wheels up was huge. The member would book an Excel for instance, they’d put that on the board, once the client sends over passenger information, we’d run into performance issues and would need a fuel stop, or we’d have to do it in a larger jet. Other times the client would refuse a fuel stop and their sales team most likely would have to get a super mid at a higher price. Now do this thousands of times a year and you get a bankruptcy.
Also, while the CEO was making ridiculous money, the pilots were getting paid less than their competitors and even regional airlines. With the hiring going on at the majors, even if they somehow survive they soon wont have pilots to fly them. No bucks no buck rogers.
The same reason corporations can’t find workers now it’s not because they don’t want to work it’s because CEOs and the big bosses take too much money out of the company and choose not to pay their workers what they are worth. Now you see the results. Chinese junk proliferates our markets.
Don't you just love it when someone being interviewed just know their stuff? thanks Mark
Exactly.....One thing we know for sure: ol' Smoky Lake Porky definitely does know how to stuff himself!
Worse place to work at, at the last 5 yrs. Worked there 9yrs, last 5 yrs suffered from poor mgmt whom are oblivious on how not to operate a airline, let alone know about fleet management. With 50% fleet availability is considered fine; pathetic...
There is NO CEO in the United States worth more than 2 million. That’s what’s wrong with our country. That’s why we’re going down that spitter every single day.
There are thousands of Air charter companies that have been around for many decades, I work for one that has been around since early 70's and still going strong (because its a mom and pop company).
I used to fly for Delta Private Jets. The second the rumors Wheels Ip was buying us I bailed. Glad I did too. The quality of life at DPJ was great for 8/6 on the Excel. But once WU bought ‘em…. Gone.
Is there no flow to Delta?
You want to know why they loosing money? Look at dispatch availability and the quality of their fleet. What important is not how many planes you have, but what kind of planes you have. If your plane breaks every other day and it takes days to fix it you not going to make any money on it. Bunch of old, busted, high time Beechjets that falling apart and out of production for almost a decade, some of them getting so tired they actually being parted out and their parts used to keep the rest of them running. Even more busted and old Citations of different models. Almost everything in their fleet except for the King Airs that they bought brand new is obsolete or almost obsolete. They bought bunch of junk and trying to keep this mess running. Another problem is that the customers don't want to fly in this kind of planes anymore, they go some place else. This is like trying to run a limo company in 2023 with a fleet of some random, high mileage, 20 years old cars.
Never understood the appeal of paying jet rates to fly King Airs.
US corporations don’t give two Spits, they write it off on taxes anyway so who cares right.
Mark was very informative, great interview and insight into Wheels Up!
Their customers deserve better. Can’t say how many times I’ve stepped into an FBO to see stranded Wheels Up Customers.
Fantastic interview and great info. It all starts at the top. I hope the new leadership can turn the company around.
Wheels Up bought too many companies, too fast without any foresight or good planning.
Great job Mark! It has been so interesting watching all of this unfold and you have covered it spectacularly.
Public Service Message: Don't EVER set foot on an aircraft owned by a financially strapped company. It's just not worth it.
They are financially strapped, because like most US corporations, the greedy suits at the top take most of the money.
Sad but certainly not new news. Aviation business is tough and the list of those that have come and gone is vast!
6 years ago I had an interview with the Chief Pilot, when I asked about the business model of the company he would not elaborate.
I decided not to join them. I think I made the right decision.
6:20 netJets has revenue of over $300 billion a year? Not sure what number he meant but it certainly caught my attention. A quick Google search shows $2.7 billion revenue last year.
They were talking about Berkshire not just net jets.
@@fieldwalsh9351 OK thanks, missed that
Rodger. For comparison, the current budget for the State of California is $306.5 billion.
@@edbenelli5374 Roger - Who cares?
I don't usually follow this space, but Mark has exceptional reporting ability to guide a story, and conduct a thorough and straightforward interview.
Brilliant explanation - thank you!
Very good interview. Yes it starts at the top. It needs good teams from flight despatch to the ground operations, I just wonder. Were they paying the pilots peanuts in a very competive market. There seems to be a lot of underlying problems.
Another Golden Parachute story !
With the Jet It shutdown in the news recently, what is the implication to this aviation segment.
Seems like a fellow who knows his stuff. I'm a retired airline pilot, now part 91 dog, flying around a private client on a very part time basis, for something to do. IMHO, the part about how Delta should be, "very very concerned," that these folks will start buying first class tickets on Delta for 20% off is misguided. Consider the premium the majors get for a first class seat. 20% off is still a shit ton of money to get someone from point A to point B. I think Delta will take that deal all day long. After what Delta did to some of their people in bankrupcy, believe me, I'm no defender or apologist. Just sayin'...they'll be fine, and if they do step in and buy Wheels Up, it will be because they see an opportunity in a fire sale, not because they are worried about taking a hit on a few first class seats.
Wheels Up about to be tits up.
Man, went from great public offering to deeply in trouble pretty damn fast…
SPACs have that tendency.
Ponzi scheme. Use public offering to pay initial debts, company fails leaving public investors holding the bag
Well done interview. Fugazi business model from day 1....Covid was the best thing that could have ever happened to the scheme....use your credits before the covenants kick-in!!!!
Seems to me the lenders/investors should have taken a look at Mr. Dichter's compensation to begin with before pouring money in. He may be the only one who made money out of this debacle.
amazing incredible .sad... how fast it gone downhill... luv their B350 KA beautiful white blue livery.. talked to lot their pilots back 3 yrs ago.. was on up up and Up...pretty happy their job
What happened rly? What happens w other small fractionals like FlexJet next?
JetLinx ok still ?
Net Jets is having there own issue with pilot turnover, and experience. Issues.
After all these years in this business, it seems like different actors…same script.
I know this is after the fact, Clark. But if the woman gave you access to that personal information, she would have 'probably' provided you children or relative contact information, if she had any. Nothing wrong with going the extra step. But you still did good.
The king airs weren't making money before the rest of the operations were brought together.
The citation Xs are old and cost more to run. Ditto the beech jets.
Is there a way to reach out to Mark Huber?
One thing I do not understand. Aircraft leasing companies make money owning and leasing aircraft at a profit, yet it’s considered a money loser for companies that lease the aircraft to own the aircraft? I’m not doubting both things can be true, but I’m curious why.
What I’m hearing is there may be some gently used King Airs and Citations hitting the market, soon…
Just like Blue Star ailines
It's tough to make a profit when you are buying brand new 4.5 M. King Airs and renting seats. Even Netjets looses big money when they do not own the airplane
I want in at some point
Once again proving that "incentives drive everything"
Corporate greed, corporate mismanagement, corporate idiocy, the previous CEO should be sued by stock holders, and employees.
Wheels up is now t*ts up.
Absolutely!
Unfortunately Wheels Up bought a British world wide charter company Air Partner. They have a program called charter + where you deposit $ in an account & just call them for a charter. I was going to use that service but I am in investments & saw their recent income statement. They are burning thru cash very quickly they could file bankruptcy any time & you would lose the $ on deposit. Heavens knows if you were on a charter flight & they went out of business.what would happen!
I'm a prime example of what's wrong with WheelsUp. Poor experiences over the past 2 years. I have $70K remaining on deposit, and I'm going to use them ASAP. My NetJets fractional interest in a Latitude is expected to be ready by October....
@Primus I think his point was that he is leaving as a customer because of a poor customer experience.
@maynard623 happy to detail the post experiences. Missed my Niece's graduation (and so did my Niece, almost) because at 8:00 the night before our flight, WheelsUp called to inform me that our aircraft was out of service. I asked for a substitution (of any size) and was told no. Fortunately my Niece and her parents had enough notice to wake up at 3:00 AM and drive.
2nd bad experience (about 1 month later) was that we were picked up in a 1970 Lear 60. The seats would not move at all, so I was crammed against the wall for the 3 hour flight. Aircraft was not provisioned at all, so water only. No snacks, no beverages other than water.
NetJets has NEVER disappointed me this way. I'm OK if you want to consider me a snob. I'm confident in about what I speak. Have a nice life.
@Andrew Chooljian your story is a great example of bad their service has become. Just way to big way to fast. I'll bet money that Lear 60 wasn't associated with wheels up but they had to contract out the charter to another smaller company just to keep up. Even their larger types like the Cit X while fast are not reliable. It's like trying to charter people around the country in a racecar.
To many acquisitions to fast. They bought companies in every region that were small but profitable thinking it would expand their reach but changed everything that made those companies profitable. Wheels Up should have stuck with their niche on the east coast and expanded with slower growth across different regions and maybe they would have found success.
I don't question their safety however. The individual maintenance bases really pride themselves on their work and would never send out an aircraft they didn't feel was safe which part of why they are losing money. The old types they fly require a lot of TLC.
Misleading advertising and poor reliabily / service in a customer segment where the entire POINT is that you are paying a TON for a reliable good experience that gets you there on time. Watch how anxious a member looks in the FBO when the flight is not even on airport one hour AFTER it should have been there - especially if they have friends and family with them!! It's brutal and if you fly FBO you'll see this.
Great interview.
Mark Huber was a pleasure to hear. He is knowledgeable and concise. He could be a nice addition to a. National news channel.
Another example of ceo greed bankrupting his own company
Sounds a lot like WeWork’s catastrophe of a founder.
Greed and hubris a deadly cocktail. 😊
shoulda called netjets
Stick a fork in it. I hope I’m wrong.
Helps sell planes at DaJet.
60M a month with 380M in the bank doesn't put them out of business in 3.5 months as he says. Let's do the math. 380M/60 is over 6 months. He even goes as far to see 3.5 months is the optimum scenario. Did he never learn how to do simple division? Is he assuming a massive ramp in the burn rate (100% higher than it is now) because he doesn't state that.
Nothing really wrong with his analysis. With Wheels Up's leverage, there're covenants that require the company to have a minimum cash liquidity.
@@gorgeouscfso have you read the SEC filings to see the covenants?
@@teamvigod as a matter of fact, yes. One of the recent ones requires the liquidity minimum at 125m.
@@teamvigod OK I need to clarify. We did this interview in mid-May. At the end of Q1 UP had $363M cash. So let's assume the burn rate continues. By mid-May this number would have been $270M. $125M is indeed the loan covenant on the aircraft. So unless the burn rate is reduced, they blow through the loan covenant in two months and are out of cash in four.
Labor shortage.
6:20 seriously $300B? ITS $2.7B
Listen to it again. The 300 bn is Berkshire Hathaway, the parent company of Netjets.
To be honest, non of this is a surprise. Vista holdings will no doubt be next.
Vista's doing fine
It's the classic how do you make a million dollars in aviation.... Start with two million.
More like 7-10 million
lol almost join them for there maintence department glad i dodge that bullet
Stock is down 90 percent over the past year.
Unrelated, but I always thought the 'UP' part of the livery was dumb.
Plus Wheels Up took Federal money during COVID relief…..not sure if they can pay that back either.
You want to make a small fortune in aviation ?
(start with a big one ;)
Facile...Throw out a few sophomoric cliches and apparently some people think you a policy analyst. .....Ridiculous.
Big mistake to buy king airs. 8 million dollars and an affront to any kind of sophistication. You can get Embraer 300 for similar price. One is a cool private jet, the other is a trump voting texan on a ranch. The contrast could hardly be more pronounced. It's bizarre that turboprops sell.
It is all about the right tool for the job. Turboprops are good for short hops at low altitudes. They are far more efficient at the lower altitudes than turbojets and turbofans.
Turbojets and turbofans are more efficient and faster at much higher altitudes. But, high altitudes are impractical for short hops. The only reason to fly a turbojet or a turbofan for short hops and lower altitudes is to flex and show off. If image is more important than actual business, go all jets.
@@deanfowlkes exactly
@@deanfowlkes now try thinking on your own. LA to SF is only 560km, do they fly turboprops on this route or jets?
are you going to bother with an 8 million dollar airplane for trips shorter than that?
turboprop planes should not exist. Sam Williams of Williams engines never produced turboprops because he knew turbofans would take over. And here we are 50+ years later still suffering turboprops and pistons. Rolls Royce Trent XWB is the most efficient large turbofan engine around and it doesn't have gearing. They are working on a geared next generation with very large fan that could be compared to a turboprop and they think they can only get about 10% improvement by going to 15:1 bypass and gearing. So it's not like turboprops are worlds apart in efficiency, even best case. They are simply never worth it. Jet money for indiana jones prop experience. And indeed, done right, jets could be quite inexpensive because it's a rather simple engine.
@@DanFrederiksen - Thanks for thinking for me. A lot of what you are pontificating is theory. In real life, you have to back up thinking with doing.
KLAX to KSFO is 304 Nautical Miles using the SERFR4 RNAV Arrival. That is not a short hop. I have taken shorter hops as a passenger in turboprops. As have many people when the speed of driving is inadequate. As a matter of fact, much shorter hops happen every single day in the scheduled carrier, charter, corporate, and private aviation industries.
As far as the question of should they exist, they do exist. So, in real world applications, do you use the tools available? Or, do you wait around for a tool to be created? WHEN more highly efficient turbofan small aircraft (not just the engine) are created, the shift will come to using those aircraft. However, by that time, short hop transportation will probably be taken over by eVTOL aircraft with future, high efficiency batteries. This would make the aforementioned small turbofan aircraft obsolete. You could argue that they shouldn’t exist at all.
Your comment about piston engines being obsolete is Just Plane Silly (shout out to Bryan Turner). Without piston engines, there would be no pilots, literally. Besides pilots with a very rich uncle, I would wager that you can not name one pilot who has started out their aviation journey flying a turbofan. When a less than $100k certified piston aircraft can cruise with a fuel burn rate as low as 5 gallons per hour, using piston engines is a no brainer. There is not much thought necessary. Eventually, they will be replaced by electric motors. But, not today.
Wheels Up has jets also. The King Airs are just part of their fleet. They actually do have fractional ownership on many of the jets.