I'm personally baffled by the demos and "first look" by Paul they put out. Did they really think this sounded revolutionary? It sounds a lot worse than other libraries that cost a lot less. I'd even go as far as saying it doesn't sound better than the old Hollywood Strings which was released 10+ years ago. Super confused by this - they must be hearing the same thing we're hearing?
"they must be hearing the same thing we're hearing?" - This is a question I often ask myself. For example, there are people who believe that the track In Love from WW84 Sketches book is a mockup and not a live recording. It's just baffling to me.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I don't think we have the same definition of the word harassment. I was just teasing you. I find it quite strange that someone like you who seems to have good ears didn't notice that the track In Love was a recording. Anyway, I'm not anonymous, my name appears several times in my videos and in the comments section (Samy Cheboub). Cheers
@AnneKathrinDernComposer I start to believe that SF just suck at demos. I got ARO violins and their superpower is the mics to bring realism (plus legato playability). But they use the default mix mic, which, as you correctly say, sounds incrementally better than other libraries. I personally played with adding the first desk violin mic together with the standard ones, and the expressive sound is outstanding (ofcourse, one could layer a couple solo violins with any library).
@@alexchristodouloumaybe, but mics generally don't alter the fundamental aspects of a sample library, which are 1) the performances of the players, and 2) how these performances are stitched together into legato or other patches.
I like Spitfire Audio and jumped head first into the rabbit hole when I was first introduced to the Discovery package which was free. A few years later, I bought Neo, Solstice, Fractured Strings and the list goes on. I’m sure Spitfire use the same marketing team as Apple, they make you feel that you really need this so you don’t feel left out when your fellow contemporaries are using the libraries and hitting a higher plateau than than myself or you! This video is a real eye opener and I’m glad you shared your thoughts.
37:57 Hey Dave, I’m a college student (like you mentioned in the video). I wanted to weigh in as someone in college and as someone who pre-ordered ARO Violins I. It all started when I was blown away with how incredible and realistic Abbey Road One selections were. Their legato patches were super playable and the extra goodies (like mordents and tenuto) added a lot to my music. It felt like a super cheap upgrade to my music, as each selection was $35 with my student discount. So every paycheck I’d set a few bucks aside to grab a goodie and start using it in orchestral tracks I wanted to write. They really beefed up my music, and I fell in love with how great they sounded out of the box. Imagine my surprise when I find out that they started to roll out the Abbey Road Orchestra series JUST as I was getting interested in their other libraries in that space. On top of that, the student discount was bumped from 30% to 40%, and there was a 10% pre-order discount that stacked. Well, now I own Abbey Road Orchestra: Violins I and its… okay? Serviceable? It is decent, but it isn’t knocking my socks off like the selections in Abbey Road One. Compared with other libraries the dynamics are tame, the performance is sterile and the fast legato transitions sound synthetic (I’m thinking about ProjectSAM’s runs library for realistic runs). No hate to Spitfire because I genuinely believe that the team worked hard on this library, but I don’t think it’s as high quality as they seem to believe. It’s not bad, but this isn’t a premium product that warrants a $450 price tag. So while I am glad I got this library at an almost 50% discount, I’m glad I didn’t pay more. I’d certainly never buy this library at full price. It’s nice to have, but not a necessity. All of that is to say that I think your video is right on the money. Spitfire is a talented company with an even more talented marketing team, but at the end of the day it is all just a product that sells you on the idea of being more than it actually is. I’ll definitely use it, but I don’t think I will be buying into the rest of the Abbey Road Orchestra series.
If it weren’t for Spitfire I wouldn’t have dipped my toes into composing orchestral tracks. 4 yrs ago they were engaging, informative and inspiring. That’s stopped since CH was forced out. Perhaps their product development strategy left with him? Perhaps the commercial licensing agreement with AR weighs heavy on their balance sheet? Their marketing team and product developers need to do some market research. I get no requests for feedback? I want Spitfire to succeed and yes, I too would like them to return to their roots. Great video.
Yeah. But Spitfire Audio has a lot of missteps lately. :( Not sure what happened with the free monthly Labs series. It was good while it lasted. LOL@@wolfblaide
Appasionate is awesome! No shorts in that thought right? If I need super tight shorts (and it has to be Spitfire Audio LOL), I go to Abbey Road Two.@@araygun19
I have Spitfire’s Studio Strings Pro which has to be over 10 years old now. Every time I’m tempted buy a new library, I always realise I can make SS sound like most other libraries with a little thought (because it’s dry and essentially chamber but with divisi or unison) - so I save my cash. I use BBCSO (Core) for final layering on big sections, but honestly, SS is a secret weapon which nobody talks about. It’s got all the slurs, detail, mics, articulations and large or small sound, but for same price as 1 violin section of slightly better legatos… or less. I’m good thanks 😁
Jasper Blunk is the guy to watch. His performance sampling is just so beautiful and lively. The libraries have personality and life and the Vista 2 examples are just mind boggling. I seriously can't wait for Vista 2 to come out. Meanwhile, I'm really really really enjoying Pacific Ensemble Strings. The Solo Strings will add some clarity to the symphonic sized strings and I'm really eager for that too. Looks like Pacific Brass will be out along with Fluid Shorts 3 and Pacific Solo Strings.
Even if people say sample libraries used to cost a fortune, $449 for just violin 1 is ridiculous in 2023 when on average you can get the whole string section for that price. The demos undeniably sound nice but I’m pretty sure you can get similar results with much cheaper libraries.
@@phoenixrising4995I could get AR 2 at 50% off but the cheaper verson doesn't have portamento legato articulation. I don't need all the mics that are in the pro version but I do need the portamento thingie.
Wow Dave, this video is already in your top 10, congrats! I think this shows that it touched on a subject that is interesting for a much wider audience. I wish you many successful episodes like this.
Dave you sound so good, I need to know : 1. What microphone are you using for this video? 2. What's your audio interface/recording chain, for this voice over? 3. What are your speakers/monitors?
The big issue I've been having with Spitfire Audio recently is I have to keep "repairing" all my libraries. Happened twice over the last month. So far. Not a big deal if I had maybe 4 or 5 libraries. It's definitely an issue when you have 30+ libraries. :(
They very rarely go back and fix problems that people complain about either. I love a lot of their stuff but I wish they would listen to the people that pay for their products.
Have to agree 100% with your comments on Spitfire, Dave! Their main libraries have always been well outside my price range, though I did get a couple of the early ones on sale! $449 is pricey (£349 in U.K. for the Pro), and extrapolating from that to the possible cost of the full Abbey Road orchestra is crazy! Without Christian it feels like the energy and drive has gone from both Spitfire and Pianobook. He really was the driving force when it came to engagement. Maybe the new CEO (ex Universal Music) had a hand in the pricing of this one?
No one. They've turned greedy just like AAA gaming companies. As a starting composer using free libraries, I'm already frustrated by how much I'd need to save to have some playable samples for my work, and how much these companies are tricking us off. Thank you for exposing them, good content, subbed.
It could be my crap beats in-ear headphones but those strings even the Legato don't sell me. Berlin Strings, BBCSO Pro, and AudioBro can all sound very similar. Heck even Soaring Strings from Musical Sampling are great.
I've had Albion One for a while and must say, I did the same thing when BBCSO Pro came out. That marketing gave me goosebumps and I jumped in with both feet. That was my Christmas present to myself that year. I do find myself having to repair the libraries more often than I would like. Not sure what that's about.
Thanks for the post Dave, super interesting topic. There are plenty of great libraries out there by Spitfire and otherwise. It doesn't bother me at all that they keep releasing new products. They can hype the product as much as they want, that's their job. It's down to the composer/programmer to come up with believable orchestral performances. So Paul's jamming on the keyboard isn't gonna sound great because it needs to be executed properly. But it can sound unbelievably good. Andy Blaney has been doing it for years. With the price, it sounds expensive but if you are a film composer who's mocking up arrangements for a director and needs to sell their idea to the best possible standard, it's probably a great fit. I agree with you completely that you don't need to buy every library they release. Be smart and choose the library that's appropriate to your budget and what you're earning as a composer. Anyway, feel like I'm rambling! Great videos Dave. C
I was thinking the same thing. Not to mention, not even the top composers in Hollywood have the time nor interest in "forensically" fussing around with these instruments. Seems like the market for this would be the home hobbyist that has the time and money to nerd out on the details. it will be interesting to see if Spitfire can continue this line at these prices.
One of the warnings a new investor in the stock market should heed is: "DON'T CHASE THE TAPE!" - meaning that investors should look for value in stocks/companies/industries that they understand; not buy because it's the hot item/trend. Same with these libraries, no matter what company creates them. I buy dispassionately with the single axiom: Do I need "get" what this tool really is, and will it improve my work? You nailed it Dave.......
Hello Dave, this is my first time watching your UA-cam video. Really appreciate what you are saying. It's funny how me and my friends we're having the same conversation about this. It's like they lost and can't find their way back home. Great job on the video, and I will come back again. 👍
I would love an "Originals" Chamber Strings library. Even though I have some of the larger libraries, the convenience (and simplicity) of just opening up an Originals library (for me) sometimes outweighs digging into the larger ones.
I had the same reaction to the demo and price for the Abbey Road Orchestra 1st Violins. I could not justify their price - even when it first came out was just too high. They released the cello at a lower price and I picked up that. Last month (March 2024) they had a sale for a few days - where the 1st violins were $200 off - and a sale triggered me to buy it - but a gut feel was it was still too much. This was my first time watching your "podcast" - there is a lot of visual material in the video that would just not come across in an audio only - you are doing a good video production. I do appreciate how you try to keep things positive.
Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching! As a mostly "talking head" type of channel, I do try to keep things listener-friendly for the audio-only podcast folks, but sometimes it's unavoidable - especially with a topic like this. Thanks again for watching!
I’m approaching 15TB of samples, libraries, etc. and know quite a bit of most companies out there. Yup…I have a lot of SpitifireAudio products also. But when these 1st Violins came out, I thought … “when does this stop?” I’m a first time listener to your channel, and from the beginning of this video, I started thinking … “this guy would be a good teacher”. In the latter part of the video you mentioned you actually are an educator. All companies would benefit paying attention to suggestions, remarks and reviews from producers such as you. Thanks … good job.
Those fast runs create the illusion at first, when the listener does not focus on the runs, that it’s a realistic Harry Potter-like soundtrack, but as soon as we focus in to listen just to the runs, it sounds like a keyboardist quickly improvising on scale up and down runs, not like how violins would sound.
They Sound Killer , and are so easy to program compared with most of the libraries out there, time-saving alone on my mock ups , it's going to be worth it to me, even if you only go with Cello and Violin , when the Cello is available :) you don't have to spend ages, key switching and all that stuff I hate doing , a bit like Appassionata, but even better
Thanks for this video, Dave. Just like you, I have a lot of respect for Spitfire. But I also agree that their latest release doesn’t exactly trigger my GAS. They already have so many string libraries in their portfolio that I don’t get why we need yet another one. Having said that, I can see “Abbey Roads 1st Violins” as an add-on to the “Abbey Road One: Orchestral Foundations”, if you already own this. So if you’ve covered your main orchestral needs with a more basic library, but you want this amount of detail in your violin solo lines, then this new library might be for you.
A lot of very good points here. I can't speak as a professional who makes music for living, but as a hobby musician I have some qualms with how Spitfire went overboard with the selling game in the recent years. I'll try to put it short and concise: even as a hobby musician, I like efficiency. I want to load a patch and get a satisfying result faster than I get burned out on the idea! The horror of choice often kills the creativity.
Re BBC SO...I was annoyed when I discovered that the Cor Anglais (Einglish Horn) range is only up to Bb4 (Mid C=C3), there are other similar issues and I got in touch with support who had some feeble excuse that they didn't think it necessary and lack studio time.... Er what??? Just had a similar issue with the Sine Cello....limited range....but they don't tell you in advance. I still think BBC is cool but I still reach for other libraries like LASS, the solo viola makes me weep, and the Spiccs work nicely in conjunction with Spitfire One Spiccs. Thx for your thoughts. K
That remember me the old days of the Musikmesse in Francfort in the 90 when they made demos for one synthesizer coupling five or six of them to an Atari computer.
Thank you for this video. I think the major problem with all sample libraries is a lack of the context in their sound. They can be expressive, very expressive, but this expressivity has kind of the same color no matter what. And this is what is truly hard to overcome.
Love Spitfire too but you nailed it on the head: their product line feels quite cluttered. I was an early adopter of BBCSO too, and it remains the last library I bought for them, mostly because my pleb ears are struggling to differentiate between a lot of their libraries post-circa 2019. As an end user, I want libraries with better usability, lower footprint, more dynamic layers, more unusual extended techniques etc. Fidelity already sounds pretty great in a lot of the market offerings! And with enough creativity, you can get incredible mileage out of them. So the question for me whenever another one of these libraries comes out is, "how is this reducing friction for my workflow as a composer?" And the answer to that is almost always "it doesn't".
I have 1st Violins and it's very slow to load. So I end up using Appassionata. I find they often release libraries too early, Zimmer Strings only became usable (load-time wise) after a couple of updates. Hopefully it'll improve in time!
Bought BBCSO Pro cause I needed to write individually for every single instrument of the orchestra (BBCSO didn't have a piano at the time, lol) and didn't touch the mic position, however now that I am more experienced I have been tweaking more and more parameters from the BBCSO stuff, haven't bought anything new. All my colleagues used CSS or Berlin, and comparing their stuff with mine, I could hear more and more the flaws of the BBCSO, as my mental state started looking for a library to patch those things. Have convinced myself to understand the libraries I already have before I throw away the money, I really resonated with what u said at the end of the podcast.
It sounds fine, but for the steep price, I would rather stick with Spitfire Appassionata. The four mix mics alone give you a nice variety of sounds before messing with the individual mics.
Spitfire customers have been complaining for years about the legatos. The Pro version of this library has some honestly new innovations in legato programming. The cool new stuff is not in Core. I bought it and was disappointed. Not sure if I need the Pro version. I think its demographic is very targeted toward the high end of the market. The new legato techniques are really good. But not everyone needs that.
I bought BBC SO pro at the introductory discounted price and had some regrets at first, realizing the Spitfire chamber library would better suit my needs. My regrets dissolved after a year of use and it's my go-to library now for everything orchestral. It sounds amazing and is a pleasure to work with. I have a ton of other Spitfire libraries as well, which I love and use regularly (all of Olafur Arlalds' libraries, HZ percussion, Abbey Road One and Two to name my favourites)... but now that I have what I need to create the music I want I'm not spending money on sample libraries. The gold rush of sampling libraries may be behind us.
The older libraries, Symphonic, Chamber, and Studio (and even Solo), are wildly high quality for anyone to be using. And less price gauging. I still opt for Symphonic + Studio for detail of close-up mics and width. I do enjoy ARO and even BBCSO, but the trap is that money pit. nobody needs that much. Then you're like me with three SSD's, and 7 TB's of Spitfire stuff I rarely use as a whole.
I understand you don't want to go into the whole "drama" as you call it. If I was a UA-camr or had some sort of public persona I would be terrified of what would happen if I dared having any sort of opinion on this extremely volatile subject - and the "right" people became aware of it.. From these people and the pressure they put on companies to conform, no one is safe. Personally, I let my money do the talking, and I'm done with Spitfire Audio. It's not much, but it's the only thing a nobody like me can do. Great video though, glad you came up in my timeline. New sub for sure.
Thank you, David! I hope it will help many people in avoiding unnecessary spending due to the hype around new products. For those who haven't asked themselves yet: 'I've bought it. What's next?'
I got this for pure pleasure. It is a fabulous instrument. And I agree about your career unlocking theme. That is like saying 5 boxes of reeds and a mouthpiece will unlock your classical career.
Thank you, sir. I've been looking at BBC SO so I might get it in the future. ATM I'm a VSL-person, and that is good enough for me. What you are saying in this podcast is exactly what I was thinking when news of this library got in my inbox. WTF? Loved your take on this. It was worth every minute.
I share a lot of feelings described here. For instance, I have been far from baffled by the legato realism. I cannot imagine a first string section delivering such sound in the runs, it feels synthy. Rather disappointing, especially with the price tag. And no sordino? I mean, can't we expect such a library to be really full?
@@VannKrakenGaming the BIG difference is Duality strings is not ONLY V1!!! I can understand (and actually have bought both) why those VSL libraries are separate (although I would have preferred one package with all those playing techniques, its use would be so easy with Dorico…). I don't understand Spitfire's logic (well, they want to make some money, that is something I understand…)
@@marclarcher7908Agreed! I just think Spitfire is stretching out the revenue from AR as a centerpiece for as long as they can. I have just started buying libraries recently, but if I pursue one of the more expensive ecosystems at some point it could very well be VSL.
@@VannKrakenGamingNot only is VSL’s Duality Strings ALL the sections for the asking price, but it also includes special articulations like glissandi in different intervals up and down, runs, slow and fast tremolo with normal notes and harmonics, détaché, polyphonic legato etc. And when you buy the sordino library, you get all those articulations again. You really can’t compare…
$450 should be the ENTIRE strings section. EVERYTHING. Nothing left out. Minimum. $450 should arguably be the whole orchestra… Abbey Road One should’ve had string legatos included in the first place!!!
it is amaziing how this is even an issue ; ) i did a podcast giving evidences that pros care about patches (and of course skill) not "The" libraries. Many people STILL think that you put any midi in a super library and then you have a HZ quality production . BUt the majority of people like to be lied to, just need to observe the last years ....
new listener here... I couldn't agree more Dave. My bet is that there will be succeeding libraries from Abbey Road One.\ that are purely sections only. i.e, 2nd Violins, Violas, Celli, Dbl bas, etc. For a sound designer/composer, I too have been a fan of Spitfire since Albion 1. And I own a number of their libraries. I stopped adding any libraries due to the lack of business during the pandemic that has continued into current day. Since my focus now is more on sound editing and sound design, Spitfire, orchestra Tools, etc., are not libraries that suit my day to day work in film. I'll continue to listen to your channel. Thanks for this particular view of yet the next sliced bread.
Thanx Dave. A lot. I was thinking to buy it… but no more. Because of your video. And you are right. Almost at the end. Invest to getting better, with those, what you have. And invest in your skills and passion. I enjoyed the whole video.
All your points sounds valid to me. As a composer and pianist classically trained, who spent countless hours listening to the real stuff ARO still sounds very fake although I admit that the sound of the room is probably the best I have heard in any sample library. Unfortunately legatos sounds as always - fake. Maybe after long hours one can fine tune all the parameters but the demos doesn't sound that much convincing to me especially considering the price of the library. After many years of struggling with sample libraries I found the Sample Modeling Strings the most expressive, playable, realistic. Sm Strings with Tec Breath controller, divisimate and Vienna Mir Pro reverb is the fastest most easiest way to write for strings ,at least for me, for now.
Considering that Cinematic Studio Strings (in entirety) is $400, and you can get literally an entire orchestra in EW's Hollywood Series or Audio Imperia's Nucleus for around that, $449 for just the first violins borders on the absurd. When you make even Berlin Strings look like a bargain price tag, you know you've completely jumped the pricing shark. That's before even getting into the 'does it sound $3,000 good?' question...
I do not have AR1V1, but a friend (who is a working producer for a couple of shows and former viola player) bought it. Yes, this is a "not me but my friend" reply. I've told him about this video in case he wants to chime in, but he's 72 and not really a tech guy beyond synths and DAWs. I think the demos are dreadful, but listening to him play this live and the ~20 minutes I had with it under my hands changed my opinion, sort of. It handles better than the walkthrough illustrates, and the sense of space and mic selection was nice. Some missing features are a shame (or idiotic), like a proper re-bow method like you get with most string releases from the past decade or so. Necessary? Not at all. Worth the price? Almost definitely not. Far better than Spitfire showed? An easy yes. FWIW, I really quite like the percussion from AR1 but would prefer a slightly re-edited SSO series (I'd buy them all over again if they put in some elbow grease). For the most part, the AR1 sound isn't my thing and I prefer the articulation wonderland of the old VSL VI Series.
I agree. The runs are a lot less convincing than VSL's (which, let's be honest, is a $7k+ library if you get all the things), but the slower legatos are magic like no other. My prediction, fwiw, those who buy one section at retail will get the rest of the string sections at a good discount. Hopefully, buying all 5 will result in roughly a 50% discount over the napkin math. It's still steep at that. Yeah, I'll just have to live with BBC Pro and its two-dynamic-layer foibles for the foreseeable. I'm happy with it 95% of the time.
I got to the same number doing the napkin math on the prize for the full orchestra... Insane. I guess after Spitfire's "Abbey Road One" plugins for 49,- bucks each, they thought: "Hey, we can make waaaay more money if we multiply the the prize by ten!" LOL
There's truth to FOMO (fear of missing out) being described here. You can fall into a victim status of becoming a "collector" without using the libraries, or having more libraries than you know what to do with. Unless you've spent years figuring out that you're actually blocked by library inefficiencies, you don't need to buy new expensive libraries - love the comments about getting good at what you CAN do. Now, the new libraries are crazy good... but they're only a notch up from their previous libraries, and those a notch up from the libraries before, and before that... so if you spend $2k on strings, in $500 chunks, you wind up with a $500 library that actually cost you $2k or more (I mean really, BBCSO you can get for $500-$1k, and Abbey Road is looking at possibly $4-$8k when all's said and done but who knows). Libraries can turn into a credit card, and if you're not making any money today, buying a notch up won't make you money tomorrow.
I got it. I pre ordered (yes.. I fell for the campaign) . Though, I was genuinely hopeful that they had turned a corner, but I was wrong. I knew as soon as I played the first couple of notes.. the thing is a mess. I work as a processional and although I agree in what you say in that NO sample library will be what makes a career, I will say that a good library can at least inspire.. and that can be priceless. However.. ARO 1v (for me at least) does not do that. I even felt inclined to tell them they are charging way to much for what this is. I appreciate you posting an honest review on it. keep up the good work!
I bought them because I love the fat bbcso strings but couldn’t use them (the bbcso) because of their crappy legatos, lack of control etc. I write concert music and want realistic mockups. ARO is just great, but the demos don’t show it because they use the cinematic mixes. The realistic sound you can get with the ARO mics is just insane. But for trailer/cinematic music…I don’t think they make such a difference than other top libraries. I will buy the rest of ARO, and can’t wait to see the brass made as such.
i really dont lile the demos, I miss something on the legatos, please listen to vista from performance samples for just a fraction of the price. much better performance. or if you want a spitfire comparation then Chamber string legatos the best legatos from spitfire, I have almost all there stuff…
100% agree with you. I have Pacific Strings and Con Moto violins A and Con Moto Cellos and they blow spitfire out of the water with legato. The tone of spitfire in my opinion is often better (I mean it's in freaking abbey road and /or air lyndhurst for example most of the time) but then the legato .... ugh. spitfire just struggles there for some reason mainly in strings I believe. Honestly I think it's because they want to make the strings play like a synth pad rather than having the natural delay that strings like CSS, con moto, pacific strings, vista, soaring strings, etc., have that allow for more natural legato transitions.
I don't get it either. At first on paper I thought whoa very impressive, this is going to be the pinnacle of sampled orchestra. But then came the demos, and it was like ho hum, not much different than whats already out there. The clincher though is the price tag, which I feel is going to be much bigger than your estimate. Spitfire likes to do Sordino and those aren't included. The way they are piecemealing this out is ridiculous. It's going to be way over $10,000. So ya, who is this for? Collectors? I also agree, I don't really like the sound of the room. I bought the Abbey Road One series and wish I didn't...
The missing Con Sordino is an important point. If a library for one string section is 449, then it better be COMPREHENSIVE. That means it has to have at least con sordino, sul ponticello if not also runs and glissandi. Those are all important patches to have for media composition, so I’m baffled as to why they would leave them out, unless the idea is to release add-on’s down the road. for $170 more than ARO Violin 1 costs, VSL with its excellent new Duality Strings gives you the entire unmuted string section with large wet AND small dry ensembles synchronised for layering, plus glissandi, runs, slow and fast tremolo and all the legato options in ARO. The even slightly cheaper sordino package gives you the entire main library content again with mutes. That’s far better value IMO, especially since even in the standard library you get all the mic positions the recorded except surrounds and ribbon! Offering one mix only in the ARO standard library is ridiculous.
It can't be more any more comprehensive sadly, not without increasing its cost exponentially (Abbey Road one is the most expensive recording space out there) however I do agree with everything else stated here👍 @@kwameryan
Yeah it's not too different from anything, there's only so much detail and nuance you can get out of traditional sampling. Especially in the mega expensive space that is Abbey Road Studio 1, where they are already doing extensive R&D and extensive re-recordings are not possible unless you have infinite money. I think what mr. Alex Wallbank achieved with Cinematic Studio Strings hasn't been matched by other devs, and that's as good as traditional sampling can get. The biggest problem here is most devs are doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results but it doesn't seem to be working, we are pretty much stuck. The future is definitely in performance-sourcing samples and lots of experimentation, it's insane how 1 early quick patch from Performance Samples sounds better than finished commercial librariess, but this involves a high degree of risk, which Spitifre won't ever take, and less even so in a space like Abbey Road Studio 1
I also love BBC and the 1st Violins work very well with it , maybe you would only ever need the 1st Violins to add add to the BBC , as it just plays better with the new performance legato . IMO :)
I would agree. They don't sound real, I can get a more realistic sound combining smaller sections and legato patches. And yep if you can't write well it's not gonna help!. Great stuff, would love to have you on my channel some time!
19:37 write quickly? . odd as this is fastest and easiest to play performance legato I've ever used . Just wondering how you write quickly fumbling around with keyswitches and multiple libraries just to get a realistic sounding topline Violin?
exactly same feeling. i bought AbbeyRoadOneOrchestralFoundation with lots of efforts and was inspired with the modular expansions of $49 and was expecting the legato strings violins will come up at same price. felt completely like a RIPP OFF with the prices of this new 1st violins
I totally agree with your assessments of AR1. I have several SA libraries already and I don't need this new one which is way above what I can afford or justify. It feels like they're putting the clock back to their beginnings when these sample libraries commanded much higher prices. The market is very different these days with many comparable and much cheaper products from rivals that are perfectly adequate for today's composers.
Couldn't agree with you more on the marketing. However I am one of the people that this product is made for - I'm not sure how many of us there are - but it is a product I've been waiting for since I first heard the Abbey Road One libraries. The sound of the room and the detail of the samples are what I need - I find the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra isn't quite there, and the Orchestral Tools Berlin stuff is great, but also not quite there for me. This full modular library is what I'm looking for. However ... the price I find a little out there. My only hope is that when the rest of the string sections are released there will be a discounted price that makes the whole section around £1,200 (approx $1,450) which I think would be fair compared to the Spitfire Symphonic Strings, and Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings prices.
But how will you feel about owning a $1450 string library without Con sordino, Sul ponticello, glissandi, decorative/ornamental patches or divisi functionality? I’m not saying that this library needed to have all of those options, but it offers none of them. Madness at that asking price compared to what Berlin Strings, Spitfire Symphonic Strings or indeed Duality Strings offer.
I get what you're saying. I'm hoping that the full section when released would include con sord and Sul pont at least, and will be discounted in a way that reaches the comparative price to the Berlin strings, special bows, and con Sordino which would be £1,400 @@kwameryan
The release new libraries that overlap way too much. I'd love it if they were to continually make their core products better over time rather than releasing all of these redundant libraries. I bought BBCSO as well early on, and then Abbey Road One, and nowadays I use neither of them. Definitely have buyers regret for buying into the hype.
SF is way behind the curve. Just quality wise. So many smaller developers are already LEAPS ahead in terms of the quality of products. It seems to me that most of their buyers are total beginners. You can see it on their support forums, it's basically this: "HeLlo! JuSt InStaLled LoGiKK for the 1st TiMe... AlBiol ONE is mY 1st SF library... NEeed Help!". The same people that go crazy every time they announce anything. Even, though, there are some many better sounding products out there... Appassionata is their "revolution" in legato sampling? Abbey road? Yeah, compare it to CSS or PS and that nasal sterile synthy sound they got for appassionata. Just like back in the 2013, it sounds like a sequence of individual notes. No sense of phrasing or musicality, no matter how much you polish it. All the demos hide behind the full arrangements, while CSS/PS sound GREAT even exposed. Even if you just use one of the sections on its own. Natural, musical. Even the demos for AR 1st violins doesn't sound that good in comparison. And the same beginners defend it with their lives. Instead of, you know, looking at it critically. YOU have paid money for that. YOU should look at the product and think: what did I GET for my money? How ACTUALLY usable it is? Is it WORTH the price? Is the product FINISHED? Is it BROKEN? (Some of their products ARE. Some require the most BASIC fixes, and yet they will have you waiting for them for 6 months. 1 year. Sometimes, years, to fix them. If ever. Nah, man.
You don’t have to extrapolate percussion. It is already released as three packages… Low, High and Metal each priced at $449. Still missing drum sets though.
You're 100% right! Not sure how I wasn't hip to that, but it's crazy to see how my guess of their pricing structure turned out to be unfortunately accurate.
2:40. Yep. To some extent, I feel they are a victim of their own success in an increasingly crowded market. They are doubtless aware of the comments concerning a lack of legato in AR1 and probably felt obligated to fill that gap. However, it is fairly obvious that Paul and Christian have stepped back from being the driving force in the company they originally founded and that is a significant factor.
40:40 Having expensive tools isn't going to guarantee great music. It can be far more helpful to work with limitations. Consider early hip hop. With an MPC, a turntable and a few mikes people made very cool and creative music.
ARO 1st violins are... fine but not what I'd call "a whole new world", which it would have to be to justify the marketing and the price to say nothing of the release strategy. The idea of selling a violin section library in isolation is just bizarre. There are many other complete strings packages that do what ARO does (albeit differently), and the room isn't enough to make it a uniquely valuable product at its price.
Update: 7 Months later, this and the Celli were available for 50% off, and I decided to get them at that price. FWIW, I need to do high quality mockups as part of my job… VSL Duality Strings are still my bread and butter, but sometimes I need legato violins senza vibrato or minor or major 3rd trills, and Duality doesn’t offer those (yet).
I still use Spitfire Symphonic Strings and absolutely love them. Like you, I don't see the point in this new library, especially the excess of microphones and such it comes with. There's so much bloat. You're paying a huge tax on all these little extras they give you, for a library that other companies have done a better job with the core bread and butter parts you use most, while charging much less for. The library doesn't sound bad to me -- even those runs are fine, considering it's midi -- it just doesn't seem all that enticing. Like you, I'm floored by the price. I think this product is aimed squarely at the hobbyist / GAS / completionist market, and maybe the select producer who the price doesn't mean anything to and will just buy anyway.
@@patzumbrunn No. Loading times are very similar to other Kontakt libraries I have. Not the fastest, but not slow. Depends if you are loading everything though, which mics, and if you've done a batch re-save, etc. If you are loading lots of mics, then yeah, can be slow.
$449. Stopped you in your tracks. OK, I'm not going to look at how much that will be in Australian dollars, it will make my eyes bleed! It's sad how so many great companies lose credibility when the marketing department is given free reign.
I got pumped too. But I have BBSO, Apassionata Strings and Abbey Road One with all adds - the only thing I need is ARO High Strings Legato :) But I listened to legato in this library and it's bad. Especially when someone posted a fragment of the violins from Hedwig's Theme - it sounds terribly artificial, the legato is ok but not as good as they say. Pity. And I agree that the amount of 449.00 is a waste of money for such a product - the only advantage is that it is from Abbey Road...no...I won't buy it :(
Don't just pick on Spitfire. Nearly all current orchestral sample libraries are just repeating themselves with ever more releases that are not significantly better than their last release. There are only so many samples that are useful before the massive number of them add absolutely nothing to composing or arranging ideas, which are reliant on composer and arranger TALENT and COMPETENCE rather than endless new samples. The writing is soon to be on the wall for most samples anyway with the increasing viability of software like Musescore and Note Performer which are improving all the time. The recent Musio bargain subscription model also threatens the ridiculous cost of many sample packages and especially Spitfire's over-priced material.
I'm mad at myself for buying into the hype of Abbey Road One. It seems Spitfire saw that hype, released a bunch of fun add-ons, and then said "Suckers, we got you now". But they didn't get us. In fact, they made a bunch of us who were very loyal and forgiving to them angry. AR1 is a good library. The add-ons are incredibly fun, inspiring and actually add a so much to the original. But this... Just Why? It is incredibly annoying and useless. What even is the Abbey Road line anymore? Are they still gonna release $49 expansions every once in a while? Or is it a $10,000 modular orchestra? It is just complete insanity.
I too am a big Spitfire user/purchaser; but when you cut the heart out of a company and throw it under the bus you must expect the loss of that heart to significantly effect the company ethos: as it has…..
Them then selling 2nd violins in the same way is just unacceptable in my opinion. The same instrument but in a slightly different location, which you could fake by mixing the mic positions on the 1st Vns. You’ll be paying the equivalent of about 4 Albions for the whole string section. You cannot market your way of that one, you just can't.
Yeah totally agreed, 2nd violins are just not worth it, there's a reason Perfomance Samples stopped doing them and is instead focusing all of those resources into the other sections to get them sounding as good as possible
@@AlonsoJoaquinComposer I hope they turn around and say; "Sorry chaps! typo, Vn1 is all the violins" but it's obviously meant to just be the 1st section, per BTS footage. That means there will be a Vn2 release and I cannot for the life of me see anyone buying it. The marketing for all of the ARO libraries is just shady to me, there is clearly some thought going into how they best drop them. ARO Celli came out 2 days ago and I thought "You're skipping violas for now because you worry they're not as defined in register as celli and wouldn't warrant the price" When all libraries are out, ARO will be the most expensive library-suite ever released. With the current line up of just Low/High/Metal percussion and Vn/VC, you could purchase the whole Cinematic Studio line. To be honest, ARO Vn1 hasn't sounded that much better than CSS in all the demos I've seen. ARO Celli weirdly enough sound more Abbey-roadish to me. I know I keep going back to prices and it's certainly fair for them to ask a lot considering it *is* Abbey Road 1 but splitting the strings up this much is too much. ARO Winds will most likely get Winds high and low and that's fair, they'd not be daft enough to sell "ARO Clarinets Pro" for $500. I don't think there is any defence for that if they did. ARO Brass will probably be ARO Horns, ARO Trumpets and ARO Heavy brass which would also be pretty good and fair.
Whilst the legato is technically much improved from their previous libraries (except Appassionata), I think the samples themselves sound stale, lifeless. The obsession with legato technology has totally killed the musicality here. I personally much prefer the more "alive" sound that other developers approach sampling with, even if that approach has limitations. We're trying to tell stories with our music, not produce tech demos.
![Spitfire's Abbey Road Strings - [SCORING and REVIEW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GGJ98h04GYI/mqdefault.jpg)
![Spitfire's Abbey Road Strings - [SCORING and REVIEW]](/img/tr.png)
I'm personally baffled by the demos and "first look" by Paul they put out. Did they really think this sounded revolutionary? It sounds a lot worse than other libraries that cost a lot less. I'd even go as far as saying it doesn't sound better than the old Hollywood Strings which was released 10+ years ago. Super confused by this - they must be hearing the same thing we're hearing?
"they must be hearing the same thing we're hearing?" - This is a question I often ask myself. For example, there are people who believe that the track In Love from WW84 Sketches book is a mockup and not a live recording. It's just baffling to me.
@@UnofficialButTrue Get a life, dude, instead of anonymously harassing professionals online. What a waste of everyone’s time.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I don't think we have the same definition of the word harassment. I was just teasing you. I find it quite strange that someone like you who seems to have good ears didn't notice that the track In Love was a recording. Anyway, I'm not anonymous, my name appears several times in my videos and in the comments section (Samy Cheboub).
Cheers
@AnneKathrinDernComposer I start to believe that SF just suck at demos. I got ARO violins and their superpower is the mics to bring realism (plus legato playability). But they use the default mix mic, which, as you correctly say, sounds incrementally better than other libraries. I personally played with adding the first desk violin mic together with the standard ones, and the expressive sound is outstanding (ofcourse, one could layer a couple solo violins with any library).
@@alexchristodouloumaybe, but mics generally don't alter the fundamental aspects of a sample library, which are 1) the performances of the players, and 2) how these performances are stitched together into legato or other patches.
The most gentle rant I've ever heard! The world would be a much better place if all rants could be like this!
I like Spitfire Audio and jumped head first into the rabbit hole when I was first introduced to the Discovery package which was free. A few years later, I bought Neo, Solstice, Fractured Strings and the list goes on. I’m sure Spitfire use the same marketing team as Apple, they make you feel that you really need this so you don’t feel left out when your fellow contemporaries are using the libraries and hitting a higher plateau than than myself or you! This video is a real eye opener and I’m glad you shared your thoughts.
37:57 Hey Dave, I’m a college student (like you mentioned in the video). I wanted to weigh in as someone in college and as someone who pre-ordered ARO Violins I.
It all started when I was blown away with how incredible and realistic Abbey Road One selections were. Their legato patches were super playable and the extra goodies (like mordents and tenuto) added a lot to my music. It felt like a super cheap upgrade to my music, as each selection was $35 with my student discount. So every paycheck I’d set a few bucks aside to grab a goodie and start using it in orchestral tracks I wanted to write. They really beefed up my music, and I fell in love with how great they sounded out of the box.
Imagine my surprise when I find out that they started to roll out the Abbey Road Orchestra series JUST as I was getting interested in their other libraries in that space. On top of that, the student discount was bumped from 30% to 40%, and there was a 10% pre-order discount that stacked.
Well, now I own Abbey Road Orchestra: Violins I and its… okay? Serviceable? It is decent, but it isn’t knocking my socks off like the selections in Abbey Road One. Compared with other libraries the dynamics are tame, the performance is sterile and the fast legato transitions sound synthetic (I’m thinking about ProjectSAM’s runs library for realistic runs). No hate to Spitfire because I genuinely believe that the team worked hard on this library, but I don’t think it’s as high quality as they seem to believe. It’s not bad, but this isn’t a premium product that warrants a $450 price tag.
So while I am glad I got this library at an almost 50% discount, I’m glad I didn’t pay more. I’d certainly never buy this library at full price. It’s nice to have, but not a necessity.
All of that is to say that I think your video is right on the money. Spitfire is a talented company with an even more talented marketing team, but at the end of the day it is all just a product that sells you on the idea of being more than it actually is. I’ll definitely use it, but I don’t think I will be buying into the rest of the Abbey Road Orchestra series.
If it weren’t for Spitfire I wouldn’t have dipped my toes into composing orchestral tracks. 4 yrs ago they were engaging, informative and inspiring. That’s stopped since CH was forced out. Perhaps their product development strategy left with him? Perhaps the commercial licensing agreement with AR weighs heavy on their balance sheet? Their marketing team and product developers need to do some market research. I get no requests for feedback? I want Spitfire to succeed and yes, I too would like them to return to their roots. Great video.
I think, I would opt for Appassionata instead of ARO 1st Violins.
Yep, agreed. That I think would make more sense for a lot of people.
Yeah. But Spitfire Audio has a lot of missteps lately. :( Not sure what happened with the free monthly Labs series. It was good while it lasted. LOL@@wolfblaide
Appassionata simply sounds so much better! ARO is robotic
Appasionate is awesome! No shorts in that thought right? If I need super tight shorts (and it has to be Spitfire Audio LOL), I go to Abbey Road Two.@@araygun19
At least you get all the instruments, and the legatos are an upgrade to most of Spitfire's libraries.
I have Spitfire’s Studio Strings Pro which has to be over 10 years old now. Every time I’m tempted buy a new library, I always realise I can make SS sound like most other libraries with a little thought (because it’s dry and essentially chamber but with divisi or unison) - so I save my cash.
I use BBCSO (Core) for final layering on big sections, but honestly, SS is a secret weapon which nobody talks about. It’s got all the slurs, detail, mics, articulations and large or small sound, but for same price as 1 violin section of slightly better legatos… or less.
I’m good thanks 😁
Jasper Blunk is the guy to watch. His performance sampling is just so beautiful and lively. The libraries have personality and life and the Vista 2 examples are just mind boggling. I seriously can't wait for Vista 2 to come out. Meanwhile, I'm really really really enjoying Pacific Ensemble Strings. The Solo Strings will add some clarity to the symphonic sized strings and I'm really eager for that too. Looks like Pacific Brass will be out along with Fluid Shorts 3 and Pacific Solo Strings.
Even if people say sample libraries used to cost a fortune, $449 for just violin 1 is ridiculous in 2023 when on average you can get the whole string section for that price. The demos undeniably sound nice but I’m pretty sure you can get similar results with much cheaper libraries.
Just get abbey road 2. Nice and dry and you get the whole string section plus true legatos for the same price as it should be.
@@phoenixrising4995I could get AR 2 at 50% off but the cheaper verson doesn't have portamento legato articulation. I don't need all the mics that are in the pro version but I do need the portamento thingie.
Dude, just stumbled over your channel. I hug you for your every single word!
Thanks for watching!
Wow Dave, this video is already in your top 10, congrats! I think this shows that it touched on a subject that is interesting for a much wider audience. I wish you many successful episodes like this.
Dave you sound so good, I need to know :
1. What microphone are you using for this video?
2. What's your audio interface/recording chain, for this voice over?
3. What are your speakers/monitors?
The big issue I've been having with Spitfire Audio recently is I have to keep "repairing" all my libraries. Happened twice over the last month. So far. Not a big deal if I had maybe 4 or 5 libraries. It's definitely an issue when you have 30+ libraries. :(
Dude yes. I hate their engine for that reason. Always some sort of headache
Yeah. And I use their libraries all the time. But...I'm quickly finding or making alternatives. 😂@@Grantborland
Try working on a cruise ship for three months with practically zero internet and your library needs repairing…
Whoa! Thought about that life a lifetime ago. I have some friends that did it. Hope you can get to consistent internet service soon!@@marmotman
They very rarely go back and fix problems that people complain about either. I love a lot of their stuff but I wish they would listen to the people that pay for their products.
Have to agree 100% with your comments on Spitfire, Dave! Their main libraries have always been well outside my price range, though I did get a couple of the early ones on sale!
$449 is pricey (£349 in U.K. for the Pro), and extrapolating from that to the possible cost of the full Abbey Road orchestra is crazy! Without Christian it feels like the energy and drive has gone from both Spitfire and Pianobook. He really was the driving force when it came to engagement. Maybe the new CEO (ex Universal Music) had a hand in the pricing of this one?
No one. They've turned greedy just like AAA gaming companies. As a starting composer using free libraries, I'm already frustrated by how much I'd need to save to have some playable samples for my work, and how much these companies are tricking us off. Thank you for exposing them, good content, subbed.
It could be my crap beats in-ear headphones but those strings even the Legato don't sell me. Berlin Strings, BBCSO Pro, and AudioBro can all sound very similar. Heck even Soaring Strings from Musical Sampling are great.
I've had Albion One for a while and must say, I did the same thing when BBCSO Pro came out. That marketing gave me goosebumps and I jumped in with both feet. That was my Christmas present to myself that year. I do find myself having to repair the libraries more often than I would like. Not sure what that's about.
Thanks for the post Dave, super interesting topic. There are plenty of great libraries out there by Spitfire and otherwise. It doesn't bother me at all that they keep releasing new products. They can hype the product as much as they want, that's their job. It's down to the composer/programmer to come up with believable orchestral performances. So Paul's jamming on the keyboard isn't gonna sound great because it needs to be executed properly. But it can sound unbelievably good. Andy Blaney has been doing it for years. With the price, it sounds expensive but if you are a film composer who's mocking up arrangements for a director and needs to sell their idea to the best possible standard, it's probably a great fit. I agree with you completely that you don't need to buy every library they release. Be smart and choose the library that's appropriate to your budget and what you're earning as a composer. Anyway, feel like I'm rambling! Great videos Dave. C
What a well thought out and constructive point of view could not have said it better myself.
I was thinking the same thing. Not to mention, not even the top composers in Hollywood have the time nor interest in "forensically" fussing around with these instruments. Seems like the market for this would be the home hobbyist that has the time and money to nerd out on the details. it will be interesting to see if Spitfire can continue this line at these prices.
One of the warnings a new investor in the stock market should heed is: "DON'T CHASE THE TAPE!" - meaning that investors should look for value in stocks/companies/industries that they understand; not buy because it's the hot item/trend. Same with these libraries, no matter what company creates them. I buy dispassionately with the single axiom: Do I need "get" what this tool really is, and will it improve my work? You nailed it Dave.......
Hello Dave, this is my first time watching your UA-cam video.
Really appreciate what you are saying.
It's funny how me and my friends we're having the same conversation about this.
It's like they lost and can't find their way back home.
Great job on the video, and I will come back again. 👍
Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching! I'm glad you found the channel!
Hey Dave, great to see a new video. I've been missing you in my feed. Thanks for all of the great content!
Just looked at the new Cello version...looks like they addressed most of the concerns. Looks really playable and at a more reasonable price. Nice.
Reasonable??
Hey, you got Kenny Gioia glasses! You sure know how to make someone sit down and pay attention!
I thought Spitfire Chamber Strings essentials might be a better cheaper option with great quality.
I would love an "Originals" Chamber Strings library. Even though I have some of the larger libraries, the convenience (and simplicity) of just opening up an Originals library (for me) sometimes outweighs digging into the larger ones.
@@dafingazthey do have one, it’s called Intimate Strings
I had the same reaction to the demo and price for the Abbey Road Orchestra 1st Violins. I could not justify their price - even when it first came out was just too high. They released the cello at a lower price and I picked up that. Last month (March 2024) they had a sale for a few days - where the 1st violins were $200 off - and a sale triggered me to buy it - but a gut feel was it was still too much. This was my first time watching your "podcast" - there is a lot of visual material in the video that would just not come across in an audio only - you are doing a good video production. I do appreciate how you try to keep things positive.
Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching! As a mostly "talking head" type of channel, I do try to keep things listener-friendly for the audio-only podcast folks, but sometimes it's unavoidable - especially with a topic like this.
Thanks again for watching!
BBCSO is still the best orchestral library they have ever made, in my opinion.
I’m approaching 15TB of samples, libraries, etc. and know quite a bit of most companies out there. Yup…I have a lot of SpitifireAudio products also. But when these 1st Violins came out, I thought … “when does this stop?” I’m a first time listener to your channel, and from the beginning of this video, I started thinking … “this guy would be a good teacher”. In the latter part of the video you mentioned you actually are an educator. All companies would benefit paying attention to suggestions, remarks and reviews from producers such as you. Thanks … good job.
Those fast runs create the illusion at first, when the listener does not focus on the runs, that it’s a realistic Harry Potter-like soundtrack, but as soon as we focus in to listen just to the runs, it sounds like a keyboardist quickly improvising on scale up and down runs, not like how violins would sound.
They Sound Killer , and are so easy to program compared with most of the libraries out there, time-saving alone on my mock ups , it's going to be worth it to me, even if you only go with Cello and Violin , when the Cello is available :) you don't have to spend ages, key switching and all that stuff I hate doing , a bit like Appassionata, but even better
Thanks for this video, Dave. Just like you, I have a lot of respect for Spitfire. But I also agree that their latest release doesn’t exactly trigger my GAS. They already have so many string libraries in their portfolio that I don’t get why we need yet another one. Having said that, I can see “Abbey Roads 1st Violins” as an add-on to the “Abbey Road One: Orchestral Foundations”, if you already own this. So if you’ve covered your main orchestral needs with a more basic library, but you want this amount of detail in your violin solo lines, then this new library might be for you.
A lot of very good points here. I can't speak as a professional who makes music for living, but as a hobby musician I have some qualms with how Spitfire went overboard with the selling game in the recent years. I'll try to put it short and concise: even as a hobby musician, I like efficiency. I want to load a patch and get a satisfying result faster than I get burned out on the idea! The horror of choice often kills the creativity.
Re BBC SO...I was annoyed when I discovered that the Cor Anglais (Einglish Horn) range is only up to Bb4 (Mid C=C3), there are other similar issues and I got in touch with support who had some feeble excuse that they didn't think it necessary and lack studio time.... Er what??? Just had a similar issue with the Sine Cello....limited range....but they don't tell you in advance. I still think BBC is cool but I still reach for other libraries like LASS, the solo viola makes me weep, and the Spiccs work nicely in conjunction with Spitfire One Spiccs. Thx for your thoughts. K
That remember me the old days of the Musikmesse in Francfort in the 90 when they made demos for one synthesizer coupling five or six of them to an Atari computer.
Superb video Dave and right on! Thank you.
Thank you for this video. I think the major problem with all sample libraries is a lack of the context in their sound. They can be expressive, very expressive, but this expressivity has kind of the same color no matter what. And this is what is truly hard to overcome.
Love Spitfire too but you nailed it on the head: their product line feels quite cluttered. I was an early adopter of BBCSO too, and it remains the last library I bought for them, mostly because my pleb ears are struggling to differentiate between a lot of their libraries post-circa 2019.
As an end user, I want libraries with better usability, lower footprint, more dynamic layers, more unusual extended techniques etc. Fidelity already sounds pretty great in a lot of the market offerings! And with enough creativity, you can get incredible mileage out of them.
So the question for me whenever another one of these libraries comes out is, "how is this reducing friction for my workflow as a composer?"
And the answer to that is almost always "it doesn't".
Love your honesty. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspectives. Subbed.
I have 1st Violins and it's very slow to load. So I end up using Appassionata. I find they often release libraries too early, Zimmer Strings only became usable (load-time wise) after a couple of updates. Hopefully it'll improve in time!
I remember when Spitfire BBCSO came out and they said it was all we need... So what's the point of buying this new product?
Bought BBCSO Pro cause I needed to write individually for every single instrument of the orchestra (BBCSO didn't have a piano at the time, lol) and didn't touch the mic position, however now that I am more experienced I have been tweaking more and more parameters from the BBCSO stuff, haven't bought anything new. All my colleagues used CSS or Berlin, and comparing their stuff with mine, I could hear more and more the flaws of the BBCSO, as my mental state started looking for a library to patch those things. Have convinced myself to understand the libraries I already have before I throw away the money, I really resonated with what u said at the end of the podcast.
First thing I thought was: "They want HOW MUCH for a one trick pony library?"
It sounds fine, but for the steep price, I would rather stick with Spitfire Appassionata. The four mix mics alone give you a nice variety of sounds before messing with the individual mics.
Spitfire customers have been complaining for years about the legatos. The Pro version of this library has some honestly new innovations in legato programming. The cool new stuff is not in Core. I bought it and was disappointed. Not sure if I need the Pro version. I think its demographic is very targeted toward the high end of the market. The new legato techniques are really good. But not everyone needs that.
I bought BBC SO pro at the introductory discounted price and had some regrets at first, realizing the Spitfire chamber library would better suit my needs. My regrets dissolved after a year of use and it's my go-to library now for everything orchestral. It sounds amazing and is a pleasure to work with. I have a ton of other Spitfire libraries as well, which I love and use regularly (all of Olafur Arlalds' libraries, HZ percussion, Abbey Road One and Two to name my favourites)... but now that I have what I need to create the music I want I'm not spending money on sample libraries. The gold rush of sampling libraries may be behind us.
The older libraries, Symphonic, Chamber, and Studio (and even Solo), are wildly high quality for anyone to be using. And less price gauging.
I still opt for Symphonic + Studio for detail of close-up mics and width. I do enjoy ARO and even BBCSO, but the trap is that money pit. nobody needs that much. Then you're like me with three SSD's, and 7 TB's of Spitfire stuff I rarely use as a whole.
This is really well said, Dave. Cheers.
Instead we should be looking at something like Light and Sound, libraries that needs more attention. Does anyone here have that? Please make a review!
Feels like a jump the shark moment. No way I could afford this library or make good use of it. I think you analysed it pretty well Dave.
I understand you don't want to go into the whole "drama" as you call it. If I was a UA-camr or had some sort of public persona I would be terrified of what would happen if I dared having any sort of opinion on this extremely volatile subject - and the "right" people became aware of it.. From these people and the pressure they put on companies to conform, no one is safe. Personally, I let my money do the talking, and I'm done with Spitfire Audio. It's not much, but it's the only thing a nobody like me can do.
Great video though, glad you came up in my timeline. New sub for sure.
I mean I totally get what you are saying but DAMN those demos sound REALLY good! BUT Damn those prices are too crazy.
Thank you, David! I hope it will help many people in avoiding unnecessary spending due to the hype around new products. For those who haven't asked themselves yet: 'I've bought it. What's next?'
I got this for pure pleasure. It is a fabulous instrument. And I agree about your career unlocking theme. That is like saying 5 boxes of reeds and a mouthpiece will unlock your classical career.
Thank you, sir. I've been looking at BBC SO so I might get it in the future. ATM I'm a VSL-person, and that is good enough for me. What you are saying in this podcast is exactly what I was thinking when news of this library got in my inbox. WTF? Loved your take on this. It was worth every minute.
I share a lot of feelings described here. For instance, I have been far from baffled by the legato realism. I cannot imagine a first string section delivering such sound in the runs, it feels synthy. Rather disappointing, especially with the price tag. And no sordino? I mean, can't we expect such a library to be really full?
Con Sordino will likely be a separate purchase, just like VSL did recently with Duality.
@@VannKrakenGaming the BIG difference is Duality strings is not ONLY V1!!! I can understand (and actually have bought both) why those VSL libraries are separate (although I would have preferred one package with all those playing techniques, its use would be so easy with Dorico…). I don't understand Spitfire's logic (well, they want to make some money, that is something I understand…)
@@marclarcher7908Agreed! I just think Spitfire is stretching out the revenue from AR as a centerpiece for as long as they can.
I have just started buying libraries recently, but if I pursue one of the more expensive ecosystems at some point it could very well be VSL.
@@VannKrakenGamingNot only is VSL’s Duality Strings ALL the sections for the asking price, but it also includes special articulations like glissandi in different intervals up and down, runs, slow and fast tremolo with normal notes and harmonics, détaché, polyphonic legato etc. And when you buy the sordino library, you get all those articulations again. You really can’t compare…
$450 should be the ENTIRE strings section. EVERYTHING. Nothing left out. Minimum. $450 should arguably be the whole orchestra… Abbey Road One should’ve had string legatos included in the first place!!!
it is amaziing how this is even an issue ; ) i did a podcast giving evidences that pros care about patches (and of course skill) not "The" libraries. Many people STILL think that you put any midi in a super library and then you have a HZ quality production . BUt the majority of people like to be lied to, just need to observe the last years ....
new listener here... I couldn't agree more Dave. My bet is that there will be succeeding libraries from Abbey Road One.\ that are purely sections only. i.e, 2nd Violins, Violas, Celli, Dbl bas, etc. For a sound designer/composer, I too have been a fan of Spitfire since Albion 1. And I own a number of their libraries. I stopped adding any libraries due to the lack of business during the pandemic that has continued into current day. Since my focus now is more on sound editing and sound design, Spitfire, orchestra Tools, etc., are not libraries that suit my day to day work in film. I'll continue to listen to your channel. Thanks for this particular view of yet the next sliced bread.
Spot On!
All I have to say is this. Anne-Kathrin, you go girl!
Oh, also, thanks for the video.
You’re most welcome. And thanks for watching!
Thanx Dave. A lot. I was thinking to buy it… but no more. Because of your video. And you are right. Almost at the end. Invest to getting better, with those, what you have. And invest in your skills and passion.
I enjoyed the whole video.
All your points sounds valid to me. As a composer and pianist classically trained, who spent countless hours listening to the real stuff ARO still sounds very fake although I admit that the sound of the room is probably the best I have heard in any sample library. Unfortunately legatos sounds as always - fake. Maybe after long hours one can fine tune all the parameters but the demos doesn't sound that much convincing to me especially considering the price of the library. After many years of struggling with sample libraries I found the Sample Modeling Strings the most expressive, playable, realistic. Sm Strings with Tec Breath controller, divisimate and Vienna Mir Pro reverb is the fastest most easiest way to write for strings ,at least for me, for now.
Considering that Cinematic Studio Strings (in entirety) is $400, and you can get literally an entire orchestra in EW's Hollywood Series or Audio Imperia's Nucleus for around that, $449 for just the first violins borders on the absurd. When you make even Berlin Strings look like a bargain price tag, you know you've completely jumped the pricing shark. That's before even getting into the 'does it sound $3,000 good?' question...
I do not have AR1V1, but a friend (who is a working producer for a couple of shows and former viola player) bought it. Yes, this is a "not me but my friend" reply. I've told him about this video in case he wants to chime in, but he's 72 and not really a tech guy beyond synths and DAWs.
I think the demos are dreadful, but listening to him play this live and the ~20 minutes I had with it under my hands changed my opinion, sort of. It handles better than the walkthrough illustrates, and the sense of space and mic selection was nice. Some missing features are a shame (or idiotic), like a proper re-bow method like you get with most string releases from the past decade or so.
Necessary? Not at all. Worth the price? Almost definitely not. Far better than Spitfire showed? An easy yes.
FWIW, I really quite like the percussion from AR1 but would prefer a slightly re-edited SSO series (I'd buy them all over again if they put in some elbow grease). For the most part, the AR1 sound isn't my thing and I prefer the articulation wonderland of the old VSL VI Series.
I agree. The runs are a lot less convincing than VSL's (which, let's be honest, is a $7k+ library if you get all the things), but the slower legatos are magic like no other.
My prediction, fwiw, those who buy one section at retail will get the rest of the string sections at a good discount. Hopefully, buying all 5 will result in roughly a 50% discount over the napkin math. It's still steep at that.
Yeah, I'll just have to live with BBC Pro and its two-dynamic-layer foibles for the foreseeable. I'm happy with it 95% of the time.
Yea, you totally nailed this one. 💯
I got to the same number doing the napkin math on the prize for the full orchestra... Insane. I guess after Spitfire's "Abbey Road One" plugins for 49,- bucks each, they thought: "Hey, we can make waaaay more money if we multiply the the prize by ten!" LOL
I appreciate your objectivity, I've subscribed because of that.
There's truth to FOMO (fear of missing out) being described here. You can fall into a victim status of becoming a "collector" without using the libraries, or having more libraries than you know what to do with.
Unless you've spent years figuring out that you're actually blocked by library inefficiencies, you don't need to buy new expensive libraries - love the comments about getting good at what you CAN do.
Now, the new libraries are crazy good... but they're only a notch up from their previous libraries, and those a notch up from the libraries before, and before that... so if you spend $2k on strings, in $500 chunks, you wind up with a $500 library that actually cost you $2k or more (I mean really, BBCSO you can get for $500-$1k, and Abbey Road is looking at possibly $4-$8k when all's said and done but who knows).
Libraries can turn into a credit card, and if you're not making any money today, buying a notch up won't make you money tomorrow.
I got it. I pre ordered (yes.. I fell for the campaign) . Though, I was genuinely hopeful that they had turned a corner, but I was wrong. I knew as soon as I played the first couple of notes.. the thing is a mess. I work as a processional and although I agree in what you say in that NO sample library will be what makes a career, I will say that a good library can at least inspire.. and that can be priceless. However.. ARO 1v (for me at least) does not do that. I even felt inclined to tell them they are charging way to much for what this is. I appreciate you posting an honest review on it. keep up the good work!
I bought them because I love the fat bbcso strings but couldn’t use them (the bbcso) because of their crappy legatos, lack of control etc. I write concert music and want realistic mockups. ARO is just great, but the demos don’t show it because they use the cinematic mixes. The realistic sound you can get with the ARO mics is just insane. But for trailer/cinematic music…I don’t think they make such a difference than other top libraries. I will buy the rest of ARO, and can’t wait to see the brass made as such.
i really dont lile the demos, I miss something on the legatos, please listen to vista from performance samples for just a fraction of the price. much better performance.
or if you want a spitfire comparation then Chamber string legatos the best legatos from spitfire, I have almost all there stuff…
100% agree with you. I have Pacific Strings and Con Moto violins A and Con Moto Cellos and they blow spitfire out of the water with legato. The tone of spitfire in my opinion is often better (I mean it's in freaking abbey road and /or air lyndhurst for example most of the time) but then the legato .... ugh. spitfire just struggles there for some reason mainly in strings I believe. Honestly I think it's because they want to make the strings play like a synth pad rather than having the natural delay that strings like CSS, con moto, pacific strings, vista, soaring strings, etc., have that allow for more natural legato transitions.
I don't get it either. At first on paper I thought whoa very impressive, this is going to be the pinnacle of sampled orchestra. But then came the demos, and it was like ho hum, not much different than whats already out there. The clincher though is the price tag, which I feel is going to be much bigger than your estimate. Spitfire likes to do Sordino and those aren't included. The way they are piecemealing this out is ridiculous. It's going to be way over $10,000. So ya, who is this for? Collectors? I also agree, I don't really like the sound of the room. I bought the Abbey Road One series and wish I didn't...
The missing Con Sordino is an important point. If a library for one string section is 449, then it better be COMPREHENSIVE. That means it has to have at least con sordino, sul ponticello if not also runs and glissandi. Those are all important patches to have for media composition, so I’m baffled as to why they would leave them out, unless the idea is to release add-on’s down the road. for $170 more than ARO Violin 1 costs, VSL with its excellent new Duality Strings gives you the entire unmuted string section with large wet AND small dry ensembles synchronised for layering, plus glissandi, runs, slow and fast tremolo and all the legato options in ARO. The even slightly cheaper sordino package gives you the entire main library content again with mutes. That’s far better value IMO, especially since even in the standard library you get all the mic positions the recorded except surrounds and ribbon! Offering one mix only in the ARO standard library is ridiculous.
It can't be more any more comprehensive sadly, not without increasing its cost exponentially (Abbey Road one is the most expensive recording space out there) however I do agree with everything else stated here👍 @@kwameryan
Yeah it's not too different from anything, there's only so much detail and nuance you can get out of traditional sampling. Especially in the mega expensive space that is Abbey Road Studio 1, where they are already doing extensive R&D and extensive re-recordings are not possible unless you have infinite money.
I think what mr. Alex Wallbank achieved with Cinematic Studio Strings hasn't been matched by other devs, and that's as good as traditional sampling can get. The biggest problem here is most devs are doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results but it doesn't seem to be working, we are pretty much stuck.
The future is definitely in performance-sourcing samples and lots of experimentation, it's insane how 1 early quick patch from Performance Samples sounds better than finished commercial librariess, but this involves a high degree of risk, which Spitifre won't ever take, and less even so in a space like Abbey Road Studio 1
I also love BBC and the 1st Violins work very well with it , maybe you would only ever need the 1st Violins to add add to the BBC , as it just plays better with the new performance legato . IMO :)
I would agree. They don't sound real, I can get a more realistic sound combining smaller sections and legato patches. And yep if you can't write well it's not gonna help!. Great stuff, would love to have you on my channel some time!
I'd love to join you on your channel. Let's make it happen! I'll reach out over on Instagram and we can swap info.
19:37 write quickly? . odd as this is fastest and easiest to play performance legato I've ever used . Just wondering how you write quickly fumbling around with keyswitches and multiple libraries just to get a realistic sounding topline Violin?
They really need to push this technology. VST companies keep releasing the same product with a new cover.
exactly same feeling. i bought AbbeyRoadOneOrchestralFoundation with lots of efforts and was inspired with the modular expansions of $49 and was expecting the legato strings violins will come up at same price. felt completely like a RIPP OFF with the prices of this new 1st violins
I totally agree with your assessments of AR1. I have several SA libraries already and I don't need this new one which is way above what I can afford or justify. It feels like they're putting the clock back to their beginnings when these sample libraries commanded much higher prices. The market is very different these days with many comparable and much cheaper products from rivals that are perfectly adequate for today's composers.
Couldn't agree with you more on the marketing. However I am one of the people that this product is made for - I'm not sure how many of us there are - but it is a product I've been waiting for since I first heard the Abbey Road One libraries. The sound of the room and the detail of the samples are what I need - I find the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra isn't quite there, and the Orchestral Tools Berlin stuff is great, but also not quite there for me. This full modular library is what I'm looking for.
However ... the price I find a little out there. My only hope is that when the rest of the string sections are released there will be a discounted price that makes the whole section around £1,200 (approx $1,450) which I think would be fair compared to the Spitfire Symphonic Strings, and Orchestral Tools Berlin Strings prices.
But how will you feel about owning a $1450 string library without Con sordino, Sul ponticello, glissandi, decorative/ornamental patches or divisi functionality? I’m not saying that this library needed to have all of those options, but it offers none of them. Madness at that asking price compared to what Berlin Strings, Spitfire Symphonic Strings or indeed Duality Strings offer.
I get what you're saying. I'm hoping that the full section when released would include con sord and Sul pont at least, and will be discounted in a way that reaches the comparative price to the Berlin strings, special bows, and con Sordino which would be £1,400 @@kwameryan
Sound advice Dave 👍
"Who is this aimed at"? should be at least one of the first questions a company should answer before embarking on a project, shouldn't it?
The release new libraries that overlap way too much. I'd love it if they were to continually make their core products better over time rather than releasing all of these redundant libraries. I bought BBCSO as well early on, and then Abbey Road One, and nowadays I use neither of them. Definitely have buyers regret for buying into the hype.
Uhh, some of those demos include 8 or 9 other libraries! Could be considered to be a tad misleading?
SF is way behind the curve. Just quality wise. So many smaller developers are already LEAPS ahead in terms of the quality of products. It seems to me that most of their buyers are total beginners. You can see it on their support forums, it's basically this: "HeLlo! JuSt InStaLled LoGiKK for the 1st TiMe... AlBiol ONE is mY 1st SF library... NEeed Help!". The same people that go crazy every time they announce anything. Even, though, there are some many better sounding products out there... Appassionata is their "revolution" in legato sampling? Abbey road? Yeah, compare it to CSS or PS and that nasal sterile synthy sound they got for appassionata. Just like back in the 2013, it sounds like a sequence of individual notes. No sense of phrasing or musicality, no matter how much you polish it. All the demos hide behind the full arrangements, while CSS/PS sound GREAT even exposed. Even if you just use one of the sections on its own. Natural, musical. Even the demos for AR 1st violins doesn't sound that good in comparison. And the same beginners defend it with their lives. Instead of, you know, looking at it critically. YOU have paid money for that. YOU should look at the product and think: what did I GET for my money? How ACTUALLY usable it is? Is it WORTH the price? Is the product FINISHED? Is it BROKEN? (Some of their products ARE. Some require the most BASIC fixes, and yet they will have you waiting for them for 6 months. 1 year. Sometimes, years, to fix them. If ever. Nah, man.
My friend, you speak nothing but facts here
You don’t have to extrapolate percussion. It is already released as three packages… Low, High and Metal each priced at $449. Still missing drum sets though.
You're 100% right! Not sure how I wasn't hip to that, but it's crazy to see how my guess of their pricing structure turned out to be unfortunately accurate.
Personally, I thought the wild runs had a sound similar to a church organ.
2:40. Yep. To some extent, I feel they are a victim of their own success in an increasingly crowded market. They are doubtless aware of the comments concerning a lack of legato in AR1 and probably felt obligated to fill that gap. However, it is fairly obvious that Paul and Christian have stepped back from being the driving force in the company they originally founded and that is a significant factor.
40:40 Having expensive tools isn't going to guarantee great music. It can be far more helpful to work with limitations. Consider early hip hop. With an MPC, a turntable and a few mikes people made very cool and creative music.
ARO 1st violins are... fine but not what I'd call "a whole new world", which it would have to be to justify the marketing and the price to say nothing of the release strategy. The idea of selling a violin section library in isolation is just bizarre. There are many other complete strings packages that do what ARO does (albeit differently), and the room isn't enough to make it a uniquely valuable product at its price.
Update: 7 Months later, this and the Celli were available for 50% off, and I decided to get them at that price. FWIW, I need to do high quality mockups as part of my job… VSL Duality Strings are still my bread and butter, but sometimes I need legato violins senza vibrato or minor or major 3rd trills, and Duality doesn’t offer those (yet).
I still use Spitfire Symphonic Strings and absolutely love them.
Like you, I don't see the point in this new library, especially the excess of microphones and such it comes with. There's so much bloat. You're paying a huge tax on all these little extras they give you, for a library that other companies have done a better job with the core bread and butter parts you use most, while charging much less for. The library doesn't sound bad to me -- even those runs are fine, considering it's midi -- it just doesn't seem all that enticing.
Like you, I'm floored by the price. I think this product is aimed squarely at the hobbyist / GAS / completionist market, and maybe the select producer who the price doesn't mean anything to and will just buy anyway.
And now to go read VI-Control and see what drama this lib has created there.
Do you also have a long loading time for SSO Strings ?
@@patzumbrunn No. Loading times are very similar to other Kontakt libraries I have. Not the fastest, but not slow. Depends if you are loading everything though, which mics, and if you've done a batch re-save, etc. If you are loading lots of mics, then yeah, can be slow.
$449. Stopped you in your tracks. OK, I'm not going to look at how much that will be in Australian dollars, it will make my eyes bleed! It's sad how so many great companies lose credibility when the marketing department is given free reign.
Freudian slip? I think think that should have been "free rein". Or maybe not.
I got pumped too. But I have BBSO, Apassionata Strings and Abbey Road One with all adds - the only thing I need is ARO High Strings Legato :)
But I listened to legato in this library and it's bad. Especially when someone posted a fragment of the violins from Hedwig's Theme - it sounds terribly artificial, the legato is ok but not as good as they say. Pity. And I agree that the amount of 449.00 is a waste of money for such a product - the only advantage is that it is from Abbey Road...no...I won't buy it :(
Don't just pick on Spitfire. Nearly all current orchestral sample libraries are just repeating themselves with ever more releases that are not significantly better than their last release. There are only so many samples that are useful before the massive number of them add absolutely nothing to composing or arranging ideas, which are reliant on composer and arranger TALENT and COMPETENCE rather than endless new samples. The writing is soon to be on the wall for most samples anyway with the increasing viability of software like Musescore and Note Performer which are improving all the time. The recent Musio bargain subscription model also threatens the ridiculous cost of many sample packages and especially Spitfire's over-priced material.
I'm mad at myself for buying into the hype of Abbey Road One. It seems Spitfire saw that hype, released a bunch of fun add-ons, and then said "Suckers, we got you now". But they didn't get us. In fact, they made a bunch of us who were very loyal and forgiving to them angry. AR1 is a good library. The add-ons are incredibly fun, inspiring and actually add a so much to the original. But this... Just Why? It is incredibly annoying and useless. What even is the Abbey Road line anymore? Are they still gonna release $49 expansions every once in a while? Or is it a $10,000 modular orchestra? It is just complete insanity.
I too am a big Spitfire user/purchaser; but when you cut the heart out of a company and throw it under the bus you must expect the loss of that heart to significantly effect the company ethos: as it has…..
45 minute for ONE concept: it’s not worthy.
There's too much reverb in that library in my taste. And the price... crazy.
Them then selling 2nd violins in the same way is just unacceptable in my opinion. The same instrument but in a slightly different location, which you could fake by mixing the mic positions on the 1st Vns.
You’ll be paying the equivalent of about 4 Albions for the whole string section. You cannot market your way of that one, you just can't.
Yeah totally agreed, 2nd violins are just not worth it, there's a reason Perfomance Samples stopped doing them and is instead focusing all of those resources into the other sections to get them sounding as good as possible
@@AlonsoJoaquinComposer I hope they turn around and say; "Sorry chaps! typo, Vn1 is all the violins" but it's obviously meant to just be the 1st section, per BTS footage. That means there will be a Vn2 release and I cannot for the life of me see anyone buying it.
The marketing for all of the ARO libraries is just shady to me, there is clearly some thought going into how they best drop them.
ARO Celli came out 2 days ago and I thought "You're skipping violas for now because you worry they're not as defined in register as celli and wouldn't warrant the price"
When all libraries are out, ARO will be the most expensive library-suite ever released. With the current line up of just Low/High/Metal percussion and Vn/VC, you could purchase the whole Cinematic Studio line.
To be honest, ARO Vn1 hasn't sounded that much better than CSS in all the demos I've seen. ARO Celli weirdly enough sound more Abbey-roadish to me. I know I keep going back to prices and it's certainly fair for them to ask a lot considering it *is* Abbey Road 1 but splitting the strings up this much is too much.
ARO Winds will most likely get Winds high and low and that's fair, they'd not be daft enough to sell "ARO Clarinets Pro" for $500. I don't think there is any defence for that if they did.
ARO Brass will probably be ARO Horns, ARO Trumpets and ARO Heavy brass which would also be pretty good and fair.
21:00 That was not good, maybe it's the playing but it sounded like lifeless samples. 🤔
Whilst the legato is technically much improved from their previous libraries (except Appassionata), I think the samples themselves sound stale, lifeless. The obsession with legato technology has totally killed the musicality here. I personally much prefer the more "alive" sound that other developers approach sampling with, even if that approach has limitations. We're trying to tell stories with our music, not produce tech demos.
Couldn't agree more