🎹 Roland Digital Piano Actions | PHA 4 - PHA 50 - Hybrid Grand | Digital Piano Actions Explained🎹
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
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0:00 - Introduction
1:08 - Opening Playing Demo on the Roland FP90x with PHA 50 Action
1:41 - Video Overview
2:03 - PHA 4 Action Features/Models
2:07 - PHA 50 Action Features/Models
2:15 - Hybrid Grand Action Features/Models
2:18 - What are the key differences between the PHA 4, PHA 50, and Hybrid Grand Actions?
2:41 - Difference #1 Pivot Length
3:54 - Pivot Length on the Roland PHA 50 and Hybrid Grand Action
4:24 - Difference #2 Materials
4:58 - PHA 50 and Hybrid Grand Action Wood Components Discussion
6:11 - Difference #3 The Stabilizing Pin on the PHA 4/PHA 50/Hybrid Grand Actions
7:58 - Midi Triple Sensor on the Roland PHA4, PHA50, Hybrid Grand action
8:26 - Difference #4 Key Texture and Finish on the Roland PHA 4, PHA 50, and Hybrid Grand Actions
9:19 - Playing experience on the Roland PHA4 action
13:12 - Playing experience on the Roland PHA50 action
14:14 - Playing experience on the Roland Hybrid Grand action
15:01 - Which Roland Digital Pianos have the PHA4, PHA50, Hybrid Grand actions?
16:19 Which pianos have the Roland Hybrid Grand piano action
17:11 Video outro
Welcome to the Merriam Pianos UA-cam channel! Today, we’ll be walking you through everything you need to know about the core Roland 88-note weighted digital piano actions currently available throughout much of their lineup.
We’ll be covering the PHA4, PHA50 and HybridGrand actions by running down the specs, giving our impressions as to what it's like to play them, and noting which Roland digital pianos feature which actions.
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Video Overview
The three main key actions which you’ll find throughout the vast majority of Roland’s current lineup are the PHA4, the PHA50 and the HybridGrand action. Let’s unpack the critical differences between these three actions.
What Are The Key Differences?
Difference #1: Pivot Length
The single biggest difference between these three actions isn’t what you might expect; it’s not the materials but rather the pivot length.
When we say pivot length, we mean the distance from the front of the key to the point at which the key is hinged. The reason this is such a huge factor for actions is that this is what determines how much motion there is throughout the key, and how the key feels depending on where on the key your fingers happen to be.
Pivot length also determines the sense of weight and depth of a key. With a longer pivot length, the player is typically afforded more dynamic control and evenness across the length of the key.
The PHA4 has the shortest pivot length, the PHA50 is longer, and the HybridGrand is by far the longest, with its pivot length approaching that of a 6 to 7 foot acoustic grand piano.
Difference #2: Materials
Now we come to materials. The PHA4 is entirely made of plastic, while the PHA50 and HybridGrand fuse plastic with wood. Some people argue that adding wood is purely cosmetic, but many others attest that it genuinely improves the feel.
Difference #3: The Stabilizing Pin
Next up, we have the stabilizing pin. Every single key has two stabilizing pins, which essentially perform the same function as the balance rail pin on an acoustic piano. These pins laterally align the key and provide strength to ensure the key doesn’t torque to one side.
The PHA4 does not have any stabilizing pins, but they are present on the PHA50 and HybridGrand.
Difference #4: Key Texture/Finish
The white keys on all three actions appear to be exactly the same. However, there is a difference among the black keys. On the PHA4, the keys have lightly textured satin finish.
Over on the PHA50 and HybridGrand, the texture is more exaggerated for better glide.
The Playing Experience
PHA4
The PHA4 is different from the other two actions in that the static resistance is higher than the dynamic resistance, though this does lessen after the action is broken in. Some people actually appreciate this for jazz and pop playing, though generally, it isn’t preferable for classical playing.
There’s also a lot more lateral give due to the lack of stabilizing pins, whereas there’s almost no lateral give whatsoever on the PHA50.
The PHA4 also feels like it has a deeper keybed.
PHA50
The PHA50 feels a lot different than the PHA4. While it is heavier, sometimes it actually feels lighter due to a lower dynamic and static resistance of the key than on the PHA4.
The PHA50 avails itself to a wider variety of styles compared to the PHA4, and will likely be preferred by folks who do a lot of classical playing.
HybridGrand
The HybridGrand is essentially a stretched version of the PHA50 - the technology is identical, but the pivot length and key-stick length is longer...
I was looking around UA-cam hoping to find some information about the PHA 50 keybed and stumbled across this video. Thanks a lot for a great comparison and explanation!
You're very welcome! Thanks for watching! :)
Your videos always helpful!!! Thanks!!!
You're very welcome! We're very glad to hear that you find the videos helpful! :)
Hello Stu, I haven't had a chance to watch your video yet, but the topic sounds pretty cool. I believe this is your 400th video uploaded, in which case I want to say: Congratulations!😃
Thanks a million! Appreciate the very kind congratulations! Thanks for being along for the ride and for being an excellent contributor to our community! We appreciate it. :)
You're awesome Stu. Every single video review you do is packed with such helpful and comprehensive information. I recently ordered a Roland HP702 and needed to go with that model rather than the next level up HP704 when it comes to sound output and type of key - the reason being that the 702 cabinet is not as high as the 704 so would look better in our smallish area in our home. Your review in comparing the two models helped me realise that I'm not really missing out on too much in not getting the 704.- apart from a bigger, richer sound and type of keys. So all going well I think for the size of our room here the 702 should do the trick - especially as I'm returning to play the piano after many years having not done so!
Anyway, from here in tropical Cairns, Australia it's with gratitude that I found your reviews; you've taught me so much and I believe do the BEST job of any digital piano expert across the globe.(I also envy your piano playing talent!). Cheers! Ian
Hi Ian! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thank you so much for tuning in! I will be happy to pass your kind words onto Stu for you. :)
The Roland HP702 is an amazing instrument in its own regard. The combination of tone, touch, and speaker fidelity makes it a total home run. I know you will be thrilled with what it has to offer.
You are going in new directions, and I like it!
Thank you! We appreciate that immensely! :)
Awesome as always 🙌🏻❤️🌹
Thank you so much! :)
Outstanding review, thank you ✨
You're very welcome! Thank you for tuning in! :)
Thank you this video is a real help.
You're welcome! We're glad it was helpful! :)
Great video, as always, Stu. Thanks for getting into these great details. As you've said yourself, the action is the most important thing to think about with a digital piano, because it's pretty much the only thing you can't change, so great to get all the nerdy details. Keep 'em coming, mate! Really helps with thinning out the options as I consider an upgrade from my old FP-30 (no X). Cheers, Ken (Glasgow, Scotland).
Hi Ken! Brent here! Thanks so much for tuning in and supporting our channel! We sincerely appreciate it. We're glad that the videos have been helpful in your quest to find your next instrument (although the FP30 is still a very solid instrument). :)
Thank you very much for this video, it’s exactly what I wanted to know about the Roland line up re keyboard action.
You're very welcome! Thank you for taking the time to tune in! :)
Thnx Stu, verry usefull video!!!!!
Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you found it useful! :)
The best piano channel on UA-cam! Simply excellent! Greetings from Brazil
Thank you kindly! We really appreciate that immensely!
I just recently ordered a Fantom-8, mainly because of the synth and sequencer features but I also wanted an excellent keyboard action. This breakdown gives me a lot of confidence in my choice! Thank you for going into the nerdy, but necessary, technical details.
You're very welcome! The Roland Fantom 8 is an absolute powerhouse of a machine! You will be beyond thrilled with what it offers musically. :)
So how has the Fantom 8 treated you so far? I too own a Fantom 8 and man I'm loving everything about it!
@@biggiesmalls7939 Loving it! Every time I learn something new it opens a door to a whole load more things. I love the keyboard action but most of all I love the sounds that you can create, An absolute beast of a machine and after almost a year we're still on honeymoon 😀
Wow. Your explanations and knowledge communication skills are truly outstanding!
Stu is a master educator as well as a master player! I will be sure to pass on your kind words to him. :)
@@MerriamPianos Based on his reviews I finally got the PHA-50 action with the FP90x. But what I do not understand is why do the black keys feel 4-5 grams more heavy than the white ones? The diference is noticeable as I can't do clean thrills on the black notes , but I can on the white. Any type of Fast repeating notes on black keys is a pain. IS this just me ?Maybe I will get used ot it ? Has anyone else notice that?
Thanks for the detailed comparison. Next best thing to realy playing them.
You're very welcome! Thank you for tuning in! :)
Nice technical dive. For the mechanically inclined keyboard action is a treasure trove of musically adjacent interest. Like valves on brass instruments, it demonstrates the inventiveness of human creativity.
Thank you! We're glad that you enjoyed it! And I couldn't agree more! :)
Awesome details
Thanks so much for tuning in! :)
This is it the video I have been waiting for. I am a happy owner of the digital piano with PHA50 action but I have been also testing Hybrid Grand action. Thank you Stu
Tried the PHA 50 on a Roland GP 609 it is a great feeling digital piano action🎹🎶
You're very welcome Michael! Happy to hear that you enjoyed it and found it useful! The PHA-50 action is fantastic and certainly one of my personal favourites too! Happy playing!
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 Is it just me or is the PHA-50 action seems that the black keys are at least 4-5 grams more heavy than the white? Thrills and fast repeated notes seem to be very good on white but on blacks its a pain.
@@radoslavdragnev8797 I didn't play anything too hard on it during the time. I was in a rush🎹🎶
Very informative. I hope you guys will do similar videos for Kawaii and Yamaha actions.
We're glad you enjoyed it! We are certainly planning to do similar videos for other manufacturers. ;)
I haven(t played the Hybrid Grand action, but I have a lot of experience on the PHA-4 and PHA-50. First off, both are excellent, and would be a fine choice for any player. The PHA-4 is lighter and feels much more mechanical, with a sense of parts moving around as you play. The PHA-50 is much more solid and smooth and feels very consistent across the keys and different dynamics. The PHA-50 feels a bit heavier--surprisingly heavy for a digital action. I do prefer the PHA-50 and consder it the best digital action that is available. However, either one is quite acceptable.
Thanks for tuning in and for sharing your insights! The PHA50 action is excellent and I think you make some excellent distinctions and notes about its feel. It is simultaneously very solid and smooth and helps capture the sensation to playing an acoustic baby grand piano. With that said, the PHA4 is a tremendous touch and value. The fact that you can achieve such a remarkable touch for under $1000 through the FP10 model is an impressive achievement on Roland's part. :)
Thanks Stu! Great as always. The video compares the PHA-4 Concert with the PHA-50 but Roland installs PHA-4 Standard in most of its new models. We can find the PHA-4 Concert in RD-800 and DP90Se (both discontinued) HP506 & HP508 (available on the market). The PHA-4 Standard has a reverse mechanics: the head of each individual iron hammer moves underneath the keybed and not at the end of each key like the PHA-4 Concert or PHA-50. I think this affects the quality of the key response.
Thank you for checking out the video and for your very kind words! We have explored the PHA-4 Standard action in quite a bit of detail with other videos, but you can certainly expect for comparisons between it and other actions soon. ;)
I was quite surprised by this, as I own an HP-508 and always assumed that it had a PHA-50 action. I had an HP-207 with the PHA-4 action and it felt totally different than the HP-508. In fact, the HP-508 and the RD-2000 (with the PHA-50 action) feel basically identical. So the PHA-4 concert action is much closer to the PHA-50 than to the PHA-4 Standard, at least in my experience.
My guess is that Stu just didn't have a PHA-4 Standard cross section model at hand, but he clearly refers to the PHA-4 Standard as he states talking about all Roland actions currently "being out in production".
Great review, (I always wish for more of your playing). I have always been a Roland keyboard user (from my FP4 to FP-7F, and FP-80).Even though my favorite (FP7F) is only a PHA3 keyboard it works perfectly for my jazz and pop playing. The only issue is that with lots of use some keys can get noisy, so every year or two I take the keyboard apart and add a small amount of white lithium grease to the underside of problem keys. This fixes the problem.
there's no need to write "only a PHA3"
Writing "only" in this context gives the impression that you might think of the PHA3 as an inferior or less sophisticated action.
But actually it is a better action than the "PHA4 Standard" that comes with the FP-10, 30X, 60X, etc.
Thank you for your kind words Brian! They are very much appreciated! The Roland PHA series actions are fantastic. Like all mechanical actions, over time, some general maintenance may be required to keep them performing at their pinnacle. I'm glad to hear you've found a solution to keep the keys just as responsive and noise free! :)
That was timely. Looks like the Hybrid Grand action is on my shortlist.
We're glad that the timing worked out! ;)
Thx!
You're very welcome! :)
Thanks for the explanation of the differences, which I found difficult to find explained elsewhere. I had a Fantom 8 for a brief time (it had a dodgy Analogue Filter so I returned it and replaced with a Fantom 7) but did not like the PHA-50. I found it slow. For example, I could not play a chromatic scale very quickly and much prefer the acoustic piano action. Mind you, no where near as heavy as the action on my old Roland A80 midi master keyboard!
You're very welcome! We're glad that you found it helpful! :)
The playing experience is a very personal thing and, ultimately, the preferred action of a player comes down to their own subjectivity as well as playing style. As is the case with acoustic pianos, some players will prefer a lighter action over a heavier action and vice versa.
Glad to see this comparison in details. My girl been playing HP702 for few yaers and always found the PH4 is much heavier than other piano keys. So he always played bit louder in her piano teacher's kawai.
She tried PH50 in HP705 and quite like it. I guess is about time for her to upgrade to the new LX seriers.
The PHA50 action is certainly a step up from the PHA4 in terms of authenticity. With that said, beyond the feeling of the action itself, the new sensor systems of the new LX models are quite impressive at tracking and rendering the finest nuances of a player's performance. :)
Stu, at the very end of this video you mentioned semi-weighted keys on a few with fewer than 88 keys. Will you be doing a comparison on those? Great job!!😊
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! We generally focus on full 88-note digital pianos on the channel, but we have received a few requests to tackle keyboards with less than 88 keys that have semi-weighted keys. We will do our best to tackle some in upcoming review and comparison videos. :)
Thank you very much for your presentation - as usual it was very helpful. The only products I currently have that are made by Roland is the RD-64 which has a decent piano action, and the MKS 20 piano module - which was purchased new back in the '80s or '90s. The RD-64 is at least 12 years old or more, and I don't know if any of these actions were in use back then. But it's good to know because one of my future keyboards likely will have one of these Roland actions, so the information is very useful and timely and I thank you for it.
Hey, I have the MKS-20 too. I also have a Roland FP-4 and I really like the action it has - PHA Alpha 2. Your RD-64 has the Ivory Feel G action. In my opinion, any of the newer roland actions are better than the RD64 action which feels sluggish in comparison
You're very welcome! We're happy to hear that you found the information useful! Thanks again and all the best! :)
My MKS-20 was matched with a KX-88. I find the DGX action to be similar to the KX-88 which was tops in it's time period.
Hi there! What a great video!
Just a quick question - you mentioned the FP10 " in countries that it's still available" , what do you mean by this? Is there a new model update for the FP10 on the way, or is it going to be discontinued? FP10X?
Thanks!
Kelvin
Hi Kelvin! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks so much for tuning in! I would have to ask Stu about what he meant exactly. With that said, we have not heard any info from our Roland reps about the FP10 being discontinued or replaced. However, given the other updates to the FP line, it would not be entirely surprising.
Excellent as always... I learn so much here! It is interesting to hear of the potential break-in period for the PHA4 action. I know the new FP30x/60x models I played felt stiff and I suppose unresponsive (to me...), whereas the FP90x felt much better, though it was both unavailable for sale at the time and out of my price range. That said, I ended up with a Kawai ES920 which was available and I have been very happy with that decision. The Roland FP90x is an amazing instrument though.
You have to wonder if there is a true break-in period for the PHA-4 action, or you just get used to it... the only way to make the statement objective is to conduct an experiment with the same piano when brand new out of the box and after this alleged break-in period (how long is it?). Then compare the results with measurements. Otherwise, it is a plausible statement, but not confirmed by actual tests. Regardless of the result, one thing is almost sure: you will get used to it. Imagine being a Kawai customer for years (lighter actions) and you go to a Roland dealer and they tell you there is a break-in period... you buy the Roland, get used to it, and now you feel the salesperson's claims are validated... I guess you could make such a claim for any plastic action, not just the PHA-4.
@@Instrumental-Covers yeah I think you just get use to it🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 You know when you buy audiophile speakers, they tell you to "break in" the speakers for better sound, so the suspension gets adjusted, etc, etc... so when you finish listening to them for 400 hours, you probably like them anyway.😄
@@Instrumental-Covers yeah I think what Stu said may apply to new acoustic pianos once they have bin played in, and tuned for a serten period of time. Never knew about that part about speakers LOL🎹🎶
Both the FP90X and ES920 are fantastic top-tier all-in portable digitals! There are certainly some differences between the two in terms of touch and tone that will make certain players resonate with one over the other based on their own subjective tastes. But, with that said, you really can't go wrong with either option! Plus, the ES920's SKEX samples are out of this world! ;)
Yes! I can verify what Stu is saying on the PHA-4, as far as a break-in period. I own a Roland FP-E50, and have had it for two months now. When I first got it, I was a bit taken aback at the action. It really seemed extremely heavy. Prior to purchasing this Keyboard I had tried a FP-30x, and a FP-60x in the store, which have the PHA-4 Keybed as well. I didn't recall the action as being as heavy as mine. I'm a guitar player, that dabbles in Keys, and had been playing a Yamaha P80 for 20 years. I can say my hands were getting a real workout, to the point I was concerned that this Keyboard wasn't going to work out for me. Happily I can say, I'm starting feel a difference. Could be muscle strength in my hands have built up, but that action is feeling great! Thanks Stu and Merriam Music for these very insightful reviews
Hi! Brent here! Thanks for tuning in and sharing your experiences! They are great and important insights. The PHA4 action, along with many other actions, can play a bit stiff/heavy out of the box. However, once the mechanisms have been worked in a bit from general play, they can start to feel more responsive. In any case, I am happy to hear that you have reached that point with the amazing FP-E50! It is a fantastic piano with an impressive array of features and sounds. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
Класний випуск! Чекаю на огляд клавіатур Yamaha, Casio, Kawai... Дякую!
Thank you! We will certainly be doing similar breakdowns of those lines soon! :)
Very useful video, thank you. I currently play both a Yamaha S90ES and CP-4 Stage; the latter has a graded hammer keyboard with wooden naturals, while the former is a non-graded hammer action. I find both very playable, and one of the reasons is they share a long pivot length. YOUR VIDEO is one of the first I have seen that goes into great detail about pivot length, something that has been one of my bugbears for years (and a reason I started buying Yamaha).
One query though: looking at your photos of the 5-note "demo" keys, as well as the Roland images of the PH-4 and PH-50, is that the pivot length for these two actions looks identical. Yes, you have the stabiliser pin in the PH-50 (something I'd never even thought about in an electronic keyboard), and the wooden infills - but the actual length of the key from player edge to pivot, looks to be the same. Any thoughts about that, even reviewing your own video shots, if you no longer have the demo key sets in your possession?
Hi! Brent here! Thank you for taking the time to check out our videos and for writing in! Pivot length can certainly be an important element and consideration for some players. To that point, the Roland PHA4 and PHA50 actions do not have the same pivot length. The PHA4's pivot length is 20 cm versus the PHA50's pivot length, which is 22 cm. Visually, it is difficult to tell the difference between 2 cm of course, but, in the world of piano actions, that difference can have a pretty meaningful impact on the overall feel and gradients of control that an action offers. :)
Thanks for posting this video. Would it be possible to do a similar future video for the Yamaha actions? Especially the NWX and its successors. I'm interested in actions that have a stabilizing pin due to my playing style.
We do not carry Yamaha pianos at our showrooms, so it would be difficult to go to the same level of detail. With that said, we will certainly add that to a list of potential video topics for the future. :)
@@MerriamPianos Thanks! I was under the impression you have easy access to the Yamaha P515 since you made videos about it, but thanks for clearing it up about the showroom situation!
Thank you for the demonstration of the different Roland actions and for showing the mechanisms. I'm a mechanical engineer who have been working in acoustics for many years and to me all the mechanisms seem to be very noisy. Have you noticed any differences in the noise between them? What is the most quiet key action you have heard from a digital piano?
You're very welcome! Thank you for tuning in! The Roland actions are on the heavier side and have very prominent escapement, which generally leads to a bit more mechanical key noise. Lighter actions without escapement such as the Casio PXS series instruments have extremely quiet actions. The new RHC action in the ES120 also has extra cushioning than its predecessor, which also makes it quite quiet. :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank you!
Hey Stu, do you have any info on longevity expectation of PHA4, PHA50, or the Kawaii RH123? I am curious on the robustness comparison of the actions, under say average play, how many years would they hold up. Thank you as always :)
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for the question! The PHA4 and PHA50 are both quite comparable in terms of longevity. We have found them to be amongst the most robust and durable actions on the entire market. The warranty/repair claim rate is extremely low. The Kawai RHIII is a very solid action as well, but, in my experiences, the need for some general maintenance to correct clicking keys (which is an inevitable fate of virtually all digital piano actions after a certain set amount of play) occurs a bit sooner. However, it is important to note that the RHIII action has recently been redesigned with extra cushioning (CN201 and CN301 models). This seems to have stabilized the action and given it increased durability. It is still a new action, so we don't have much data on it yet, but it is very possible that it will be up there with the PHA4 and PHA50 action in terms of longevity. :)
Very useful video! I’m searching a new keyboard for my Channel, thanks
You're very welcome! I'm happy to hear that you found it useful!
Thank you Stu, i am pending upgrade to LX706 or LX708
Thanks for tuning in! The LX706 or LX708 would be a great upgrade! They have fantastic actions with nice extended key sticks and pivot lengths! :)
Hey Stu got to say man you're really the best on the internet with this stuff I mean it's like watching you know in All around All Star man I mean it doesn't matter if it's the mechanical features of actions or like digging deep on when there's a sort of desert where a literature could be on like like the Kauai actions I love how you I mean and they have great literature really but but or vsts or acoustic pianos or global developments of piano manufacturers I mean it's just kill her man I love your videos Man I mean basically I would be throwing you cash via patreon if I wasn't poor but man I've learned I've learned a lot from your channel man and just love your work man I hope if I ever get up to Canada I'll be I'll be checking you all out was kind of wondering too what your performance / touring / performance just looked like across like a year man cuz yeah it's just such a great player too it's sort of it's just like you know we're like just you know the way that you're demoing them I mean it's just amazing the range that you have anyway man love the work all right
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing your wonderfully supportive words! We sincerely appreciate it. Stu is not only a monster player, but also a walking encyclopedia of all things piano (both digital and acoustic!). We are very fortunate to have his immense talent and knowledge. Thanks again and all the best! :)
Hello Merriam Music team - I have a question: we have a Roland LX17, which I think has the PHA 50 action. After a few years in use, I have the impression that the keys are not perfectly levelled any more and that the sidewise distance between some of the keys has become bigger in some places, giving the keyboard an uneven look. It is not too bad and one can definitely still play the instrument well, but I am wondering if this can be fixed/adjusted at all. Thank you in advance for your advice!
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thank you for the question! Unfortunately, I am not entirely sure if the keys can be re-levelled on a traditional digital piano action (I suppose it is possible, but not necessarily common practice). It ultimately depends on what is causing the issue. It may be correctable if it is being caused by a component/material that is wearing or thinning down from repeated use (felt for instance). My recommendation would be to get an experienced digital piano tech to assess and triage your specific unit. Thanks and hope this helps! :)
Hey Stu! Could you please clarify @15:14 "so fp10 in some countries where it's still available"? Is Roland replacing FP10 with something new, like FP10x?
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! We have not received any updates from Roland yet regarding an update to the FP10, but you can certainly expect a preview video if an announcement is made. Also, I'm not sure as to which countries it is still available in. It is still presently available in the North American market though. :)
Nice improvisation on the chorale "All Creatures of Our God and King" at minute 1:10! Maybe most commonly known from Mr. Bean's sketch singing Alleluja at church. And thanks for the valuable technical information ...
You're very welcome! Thank you so much for tuning in! We appreciate it immensely. :)
I still love F20 Roland piano the most.. If I like its key weight and its sound, what model would be the best as upgraded version hmm... to put it simply, the closer to the real wozendorfer or steinway the Roland piano is, the better it is.
Hi there! The closest equivalents in terms of touch, tone, and size would be the FP10, FP30X, and F701 if you are interested in a console unit. They are all excellent options! :)
I learnt playing on a Yamaha digital piano DGX 505 purchased about 10 years ago and did not have any weighted keys. On a recent trip to a music store I was shocked how I couldn’t play any of the keyboards due to all of them being weighted keys. I don’t have any aspirations of playing an acoustic piano but the issue is I’m not able to find any keyboards that don’t included weighted keys anymore if I wish to find a newer upgrade to my old Yamaha
Hi there! Brent from Merriam Music here! As you've discovered, the trajectory of the industry these days is geared towards weighted key actions that try to simulate the "real thing" as closely as possible. For players that have a substantial amount of experience of non-weighted keyboards or synths, this can be a bit of a difficult transition. My suggestion would actually be to embrace the added weight and new touch sensations that weighted key actions provide. While it may initially seem hindering, the heavier touch will provide a greater sense of control and a greater feeling of connectivity to your instrument. This is particularly important when playing expressively or performing music with large dynamic contrasts. There will be a learning curve, but the benefits that emerge at the end of that learning process may be quite significant to you. Thanks again and all the best! :)
I have a pha 50. The action seems pretty heavy and very solid, also you can really feel the escapement. I don’t really have much experience with acoustic pianos so I can’t really compare.
The PHA-50 is a nice action which i like very much as an owner of the FP-90X.
Since you mention the "escapement":
i wouldn't pay too much attention to it.
It is not a real escapement as in acoustic grand pianos.
Afaik there is not any digital piano that has a real escapement.
It is only a gimmick that tries to simulate the escapement sensation. Doesn't contribute anything at all to playability.
Actually i'm thinking of opening my DP and removing the escapement simulation gimmick as soon as it is out of warranty
I personally find that the PHA-50 action is one of the most authentic playing experiences on the digital market right now. The weighting, feel, and escapement gives you a lot of the sensations that simulate the feel of a grand piano quite impressively. The escapement is a subtle detail, but it does provide a greater feeling of connectivity to the instrument and can also have some benefits in regard to dynamic control.
@@MerriamPianos how do you compare this with the kawai VPC1?
Love the comparisons on these actions! Perhaps I'm the odd duck out, but the PHA-4 Concert was the immediate predecessor to the PHA-50 yet I much prefer it to the PHA-50! I would suggest if anyone is considering the RD-2000 or FP-90/90x mostly for its action, and the opportunity presents itself, try an RD-800! You may absolutely love it (and possibly save some money in the used market!). With the PHA-4 Concert and its more substantial feel (less mushy than the PHA-50) I experience much better control and can easily match all the expectations of classical piano music; especially true of trills, repetitions, quick passages/scales and ornamentations in general. Even in 2023, there are people that still prefer the PHA III Ivory Feel on the RD-700 NX! Roland's build quality is so good that these older models are still VERY relevant in terms of their mechanics, but undoubtedly their sound and performance tech has exponentially improved with time. All this being said, the RD-2000 is still an absolute beast and definitely deserves the praise it gets, it just wasn't the winner for me. Can't wait to see what's next for the RD series!
Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed the comparison! We also appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences. It is certainly true that older generation models and actions have their fanbases. It all comes down to a matter of personal preference. Everyone's ideal touch is a little bit different. The most important thing is to find an action that you connect with, which it sounds like you have in the PHA-4 Concert! :)
I have a roland FP-10 and I am playing at a very advanced level. what are the reasons for me to buy a more expensive DP if the action and tone are very similar for most roland products.
Hi there! The decision is ultimately up to the player as to what they need out of the instrument they are playing. The FP10's PHA4 is a remarkable action that many advanced players like yourself also enjoy. With that said, the PHA50 is a markedly different touch to many players and the Piano Modelling engine can be quite attractive depending on how the piano is being used. :)
Sir can you have a comparison between FP10 and ES110, I'm planning to buy my first 88 Digital Piano soon and those 2 are my choices.
Hi! Brent here! Thanks for the suggestion! The ES110 has been discontinued, so, unfortunately, it is unlikely that we will be able to tackle that review. With that said, we have completed a review between the ES110 and FP30X, which you can view here:
ua-cam.com/video/1t4wGc3HcZc/v-deo.html
The FP30X has quite a few parallels to the FP10, so you may find this comparison useful. :)
Hello Stu, regarding your statement around 5:00 that Yamaha uses that hybrid model of plastic with two thin pieces of wood on the sides: I just chatted with Yamaha Support, and they made clear that they don't use hybrid, meaning either: 1) all keys are plastic or 2) wooden keys (white only) and plastic black keys. Of course, that refers to digital pianos.
The Yamaha NXW action actually does utilize wooden side panelling on a plastic key. You can check out an imagine of the removed action here:
www.piano-centrum-rostock.de/yamaha-natural-wood_taste.jpeg
@@MerriamPianos wood side veneer on plastic keys is like a Cadillac emblem on a Chevrolet.
@@MerriamPianos Hello again Stu. You are still incorrect in your statement, but I discovered something about the NWX thanks to you, so I appreciate your feedback on this. I will explain below. I checked the website where you took that picture: they are a Kawai and Casio dealer and have at least two articles against Yamaha. They stopped doing business with Yamaha in 2012. They claim Yamaha uses deceptive practices regarding their digital piano wooden action. When you read a bit more in their website, it seems the real reason why they stopped doing business with Yamaha is due to price increases, not a moral dilemma with keyboard construction.
Look again at the picture you shared with me: the NWX action does not utilize wooden side paneling on a plastic key. The wooden block is solid, which is shown in a Korean video where a person takes a white key from a NWX action and saws it in many parts, both cross sectional and along the wood, and he shows the key core is a solid block of wood. You can check the video here on UA-cam, I am not including the link because your channel automatically deletes comments with external links. You can also find similar pictures online taken at several angles.
What happens is that the block of wood has a plastic support top and bottom that extends to the pivot. I am surprised Yamaha has chosen to do that, because their 2001 Clavinova CLP-990 had full sticks of wood, like Kawai does.
Edit: I just rediscovered a Chinese website where a technician opens a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-685, which has the GrandTouch action. (I had seen this before, but never paid attention to the action because I was interested in the speaker system, which is my main area of interest, as you probably know by now he he). Now that I paid attention to the white keys, it becomes clear that they are similar to the NWX white keys.
So, in summary: it seems correct to state that Yamaha is not using 100% wooden sticks on the white keys of any digital piano, not even on their top of the range Clavinovas. But at the same time, it is wrong to state they use wooden side paneling on those keys, like Roland PHA-50. In this regard, their design seems to be unique, as far as I can tell.
@@JoeLinux2000 That's what Roland does in the PHA-50 and Grand Hybrid. Also done in Studiologic Numa X Piano models (Fatar TP/400 Wood). Yamaha does not have wood side veneer on plastic keys, as I explained to Stu in my reply. 🙂
@@Instrumental-Covers A glued on veneer is likely to come unglued at some point down the road. If Yamaha doesn't do it, they are smart. Most plastics do deteriorate over time. Some can turn back into a liquid state others become brittle and crack.
14:10 nice video and even showed us which keyboard action is in which models. I think perhaps next time you can show the 3 keyboard demo models at the same time so we can tell relatively speaking how width they compare
Thanks for tuning in! Glad you enjoyed the video comparison! :)
Great insight into the Roland action. I have a question. I recently purchased an FP-E50. From the box, one key in particular (middle E if you like) and the A keys either side are making a clicking/ticking noise upon release. There are a few more also making this noise. The E key is particularly bad and fairly loud as well as very annoying. The retailer told me this was normal and that they had other brands and grand pianos that make this noise. I’m told by Roland that this is grease that that “will settle” and was told to give it a few weeks. Those weeks have passed and if anything it’s getting louder and worse and affecting some more keys though not as bad. Anyone got any advice?
I am sorry to hear that you have experienced some issues with your FP-E50's action. While there is truth to the feedback you have received from your dealer and Roland, given that it has been several weeks and the issue has not been resolved, I would advise reaching back out to them to prompt a warranty repair/assessment. That would be my suggestion!
Thanks very much. Have done exactly what you’ve suggested. Cheers
Thank you very much for your work on this. I went through the comparisons and playing tests as well. Due to the closest tone and feel authenticity in this class, I went for the FP90X with it‘s PHA50…and this might sound funny….I like that even more -since it is very predictable - than the acoustic action at the old piano at my piano courses. Fun fact, it was a pha-4 action on a fp30x which cought my initial attention :) …but comparison helped…PHA50 gives a „feel home“ IMHO, but thats very subjective. To get some diversity I do midi in a Yamaha CP88 to my FP90X since that action is very close, just with tiny differences in the dynamics and a more rustic feel. Above that, the CP88 offers some convenient tone tweaking tools and besides that, I can listen to the modeled sound of the FP90X through a rustic CP88 action and some good fp90x-speakers. PHA50 might be my accompany action for the next decade on my FP90X and soon Fantom 8. I look forward to the day when the „grand feel III“ or a millennium II or any Yamaha Hybrid action make it into the more mobile models, maybe the next mp11se-iteration provides some more „grand hardware“. For the time being, the PHA50 inspires me to try out and keep on practicing. I assume for a rotined pianist (which I am not yet), the action might be secondary….this person might create wonderful tones even out of an empty tin ;) - Again, thank you very much for your work. I learned tons of facts from your channnel, can’t thank you enough for that. All the best & be blessed!
Thank you so much for your incredibly kind words and compliments! The PHA-50 action is fantastic and I certainly agree in the notion that it is one of the best actions offered in a portable piano package right now. Thanks again and happy playing! :)
Hi Martin, it sounds like you’re way ahead of me in the digital piano scene; seeing that you do MIDI from a CP88 to the FP90X, could you advise me on the following?:
I have a legacy Roland U-20, my first and hitherto only digital instrument which I cherish, though it has nothing like a piano feel. If I buy an FP30/60X, would I be able to sound the U-20 with it (connected to an audio unit of course)? The U-20 has only 5-pin DIN midi in/out/through, while the present models mostly have midi through USB only. And with the midi through on the U-20 I presumably could feed through to a computer to control software instruments in a DAW. Combining the old world and the new …
I would appreciate your view in this - and from any other readers, of course!
@@popocatap Hi, the 5 Pin Midi of your device should not be an issue. At least for the fp90x I can confirm that it has two kinds of midi out. The conventional pins and the USB. So you should be able to create your sound like you intdnd to do. I would recommend to you to take your board and a 5pin cable and visit a store nearby to rin a real test. FYI: in the meantime I sold the cp88 and the fantom 8 and just kept the fp90x. Nothing comes close to this action and the sound modeling especially. The lack of aftertouch is not an issue for me at the moment. Today, with a new set of monitors I found some string resonances in the highest octave which I did not even find with my headphone. I love my fp90x, the technology and the ergonomics. Hope this helps :)
Update:
…I just checked the manuals for you….neither the fp30x nor the fp60x do offer that 5pin midi.
So in your case why not trying a pure midi keyboard like from those popular brands like Studiologic, Arturia, Native Instruments or Novation?
The advantage there ist that you get some headspace to improve your midi work later on.
If you prefer to go with a Roland FP theres no way around the 90. All the best!
thanks, how long is the key of the pha 50?
Hi there! The PHA50 action's pivot length is 22 cm. :)
How does the pha50 action compare to the old cp300? Wondering if I should upgrade to the 90x. Had the cp300 for almost 14 years and it’s not skipped a beat yet but thinking it might be time ….
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! It will always be tough to adapt to a new feel and touch, but, with that said, Roland's actions have come a long way and many players that are making the transition to the current actions from older models are often completely blown away with what the PHA-50 action offers.
@@MerriamPianos Thanks Brent :) Had an Roland FP1 before the CP300 and felt the CP300 was a definite step up so guessing I can expect the same again with the 90x !
Again a great help in my search for a match in the digital piano jungle - thanks a million, Stu! After visiting three stores over the weekend and trying out a selection of pianos below €1200, this explains why I was feeling differences that I couldn’t attribute to the physical appearance and the sound engines of the different (classes) of the models tested (mainly the Roland stable for their rich piano sounds). I still haven’t been able to choose, because once you move up the range, the addition of bells and whistles (sometimes at the expense of dumping some functionality) makes the equation very complex. The result is I can no longer rely on my auditory and muscle memory, especially because I want a good piano to brush up my technical skills before I feel comfortable with improvising and experimenting further, ‘of course’ with the aid of MIDI and DAWs. Maybe I want too much at once - a delivery van, family car and super sports-car in one. Probably someone with more living space and a larger budget would invest in two or more instruments, each with their own specific pros and cons which - in combination - would level things out. Alas, not my case.
All in all, this video came at the right moment to take a breather and let some technical insight enter alongside the ‘intangibles’ which can hardly be quantified. beaucoup!
We're happy to hear that you found it useful! I know the digital piano market can be quite daunting given all of the brands, models, and categories. While it may take a bit of work and research, you will eventually narrow things down to one or two models that make the most sense for the features and uses you're looking for. :)
PHA-50 is one of the best i tried. Wish Roland releases something along the lines of an RD-88 but with that action, maybe an RD-99, RD-1000? I don't care, just do it! Because my shopping money is itching and i don't want to buy an aging RD-2000 or an FP-90.
That is a great idea! The sleek design of the RD88 along with the fact that it has onboard speakers makes it a little powerhouse. A version with the PHA-50 action would really put it over the edge! Maybe Roland will offer an entry into the line that realizes that vision. ;)
Is the difference between pha-50 and hybrid grand action worth spending more on the hybrid grand? Is the difference very noticeable when it comes to playing exceedingly difficult classical music with the pha-50/hybrid grand action, or to be blunt does one of them play worse/less efficiently than the other? I am a classical pianist looking for a very realistic feeling/responsive playing digital piano around the 2000$ or less range I currently have a Yamaha p125 at my home. the GHS action from that piano has been feeling more sluggish and too heavy for classical music as I got better at playing and wanting to play more difficult pieces (I've been only playing for 5 months). I managed to snag the DP603 for 1,999 US recently, it might take a while to get here since it's backordered. I tried the pha-50 on the fp-90x and felt more even, Less heavy, and more responsive than the p125 that I have now but still have some small regrets/hesitations if I should cancel my order on the piano I ordered. I like to hear thoughts!
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! At the end of the day, the answer to this question comes down to the subjectivity of the player. However, for me, I do notice a meaningful difference between the PHA50 and Hybrid Grand action. While the general solidity and durability between these actions are the same, the additional pivot length of the Hybrid Grand action provides much more sensitivity and responsiveness in my opinion, particularly when playing at very delicate dynamic markings. With that said, the PHA50 is a wonderful action that even very advanced classical players feel provides an excellent playing experience. Thanks and hope this helps! :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank you for your thoughts about this brent! any response helps!
Wating for Instrumental Covers hehe🎹🎶
I am here! Thanks!😁
@@Instrumental-Covers saw you at 1 of Jeremy See's videos BTW. Also I replied hehe🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 Oh wow, I just saw your comment in the video about the Donner SE-1, but I never got notified. I don't think UA-cam notifies all the time, just the first time. Yeah, I watch his channel too, it is about entry-level arrangers from Yamaha and Casio most of the time. 🎵
It's always nice to see community members connecting through our channel and videos! :)
@@MerriamPianos When it comes to research and knowledge of technical subjects IC is king. When it comes to piano playing skills you are unsurpassed.
The only complain (minor) for me about the PHA-4 is that the black keys slip when temperature goes around 68F. Other than that, love it on FP30X.
Temperature will certainly have a minor impact on even digital piano actions, so I certainly understand your point. With that said, I definitely agree! The FP30X is a wonderful instrument with an impressive cost-to-value ratio.
How would the Hybrid Grand compare to CLP-785 action? And the kawai equivalent?
The Hybrid Grand action is a heavier, stiffer touch, but, in my opinion, it is incredibly authentic feeling. The new sensor system of the LX and GP models is fantastic as well. It does a fantastic job tracking the nuances of a player's performance. I am not intimately familiar with the CLP785 action, but the Kawai equivalent (CA701/CA901 and GFIII action) is lighter in comparison to the Hybrid Grand touch. The GFIII is also a little bit of a bouncier action in comparison to the Hybrid Grand. With that said, they're both excellent, rewarding actions. They simply offer different feels that will appeal to different types of players based on their preferences.
Stu mentioned in the video that the reptition rate of the Hybrid Grand is *slower* than the PHA-50. Wonder why is that so? Also, is the longer key pivot length of the Hybrid Grand significantly different from the shorter key length of the PHA-50 in terms of touch?
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! I would say that the Hybrid Grand has a very different feel from the PHA50. While it comes down to subjectivity and opinion, for me, the PHA50 plays like an acoustic baby grand, whereas the Hybrid Grand action plays more like a larger 6'-7' acoustic parlour/semi-concert grand. In terms of the repetition speed, both of these actions' interaction with physics are the same. However, because the PHA50 has a shorter (and, as such) lighter key stick, that could attribute to the faster repetition that Stu is referring to.
WHere did you get all those specs from? I've been trying to find Roland saying the PHA-50 keybed has triple sensors, couldn't find anything
Some details are not published in the official manufacturer's literature, but we have actually pulled the actions out from these pianos and inspected the finer details of their design. :)
@@MerriamPianos Oh that's incredible! Thanks for taking the time to do these very informative, digestible videos! I'm currently binging your channel haha
Thanks for the info. Stu.
I have a two year old RD-88 and am noticing a thumping noise from the black keys on uplift.
Also some other noises.
Is this normal, and do you know how long Roland covers repairs on the RD-88....I can't seem to find it on their website.
Have a good one
Dave
Hi Dave, I propose you contact Roland directly on their support page which you can enter after the product registration. They usually answer within a day and should be the best source of information on that PHa-4-question. All the best and good luck, Martin.
Hi Dave! I believe there may be some slight differences when it comes to warranty durations and terms in different markets. With that said, Roland has always been a fantastic company to deal with in terms of their support. As Martin kindly pointed out, I would advise reaching out to Roland directly for assistance. They should get back to your shortly! :)
"Up Thump" a common problem with digital actions.
Same problem here...
Thanks Joel
I had to purchase a Yamaha P-515
I tried with Roland .....did all you all suggested but it's passed warranty so I will try and find a way to use the P-515 as a controller for the RD-88
Cheers🎹@@JoeLinux2000
LOL Stu is talking about digital actions while sitting at the REAL grand (which, let's face it, most of us will never have) Thank you for yet another informative video, Stu!
We're glad you enjoyed the video! Also, if you're ever near one of our showrooms, you're more than welcome to stop in to try our wonderful selection of grands! ;)
@@MerriamPianos A long hike from New Zealand, but if I lived in Canada, you would certainly be my first choice when shopping for any keys❤
I would like to know, which are the most silent keys while playing without tone? And which keys are the most silent comparing with Yamaha, Kawaii and Casio? Is the PHA 50 keyboard FP90X the most silent and best one, more silent than Yamaha, Kawaii or Casio models? I don't want to disturb sleeping people with loud noise while playing with headphones 😉 Thanks from Düsseldorf, Germany to all of you for your answers who have made experiences with silent pianos!
I did that test with a few Kawai, Yamaha, Roland, Casio and Korg digital pianos in the same store. Even though I brought a decibel meter with me, I couldn't use it because they were playing soft music and that interfered with the decibel meter readings, so I had to rely on my ears, and it was an informal test. My conclusion was: the PHA50 was more muffled compared to the other actions. Korg was similarly muffled. That doesn't make it "better", in fact, actions from real pianos are very noisy but you don't hear them because real pianos are very loud. The PHA50 felt a bit sluggish to me, probably because of the extra cushioning. But if what you are looking for is a plastic action with a muffled sound, then the PHA50 is one of the best, and similar in noise level to the Korg digital piano actions.
The Roland PHA-50 is certainly one of the quietest actions available on the market right now. In addition to providing a wonderfully-responsive touch and excellent escapement simulation, the keys are quite low volume, which many partners and roommates of piano players that like to practice late at night appreciate. ;)
The Casio PX-150 I played before was very noisy. I consider a low noise action to be paramount. The DGX is pretty good. I know the es920 is rather noisy. I have no idea if it feels better than a DGX-670. One annoying thing is the sales person at Schmidt's was always changing the voices and talking while I was playing, I need time alone with an instrument by myself, uninterrupted, to get a proper sense of it.
@@Instrumental-Covers Thank you for your answer! "Muffled" and "sluggish" were the words I had to look up in the translation app 🤓
@@MerriamPianos Thank you very much for your informative answer. By the way: I admire your piano playing with a talent of improvisation and your excellent jazz feeling (I hope you understand what I mean with my german english) 🤓
Why is RD 88 action feels very different from fp 30 if they are using the same pha 4 action? It seems much heavier
While two models may use the same action, the overall "feel" can be quite different for two primary reasons. Firstly, the enclosure the action is in can play a part in the feel of the action. Secondly, given that our perception of touch is a combination of the physical movement of the key and the resultant sound from the tone engine, it is important to note that our brain will perceive actions differently when being used in conjunction with different piano sounds or tone engines.
Merriam, precisamos de uma comparação entre as ações dos pianos com um piano acústico. Usando peso e tudo mais. A korg tem a rh3, mas o canal não fala sobre a korg.
Seria um vídeo técnico e interessante. Qual a verdadeira ação mais próxima da real do piano acústico?
Thanks so much! We're glad you found it interesting. I would say that all of Roland's pianos have excellent, authentic sounding piano tones. Different models use different tone engines, so there will be tonal differences between models.
Is the PHA4 individually weighted? I’ve seen videos with Roland reps saying it is and lots of online back and forth about it…
Hi! Brent here! My understand is that it is grade-weighted/individually-weighted. :)
@@MerriamPianos So each key has a unique weight (as opposed to being weighted in zones like most other entry to mid level pianos)?
The pha50 is the closest to a real piano i tried on a portable instrument (rd2000/fp90). Coming from a very critical classically trained pianist. My upright yamaha piano is still better of course but that is expected. That new hybrid bed sounds like one of those overly weighted keys. Sounds like pha50 is still the best to me from your video. Would you agree?
@S L Just an observation about the Casio GP series: they don't have the real mechanical action of a grand piano key, just an imitation. They do have real wooden key sticks, though. But the action itself is not "real", in the sense that it doesn't come from any real acoustic grand piano. In fact, it is all plastic: the whippen assembly is just a piece of plastic, as well as the shanks and hammers. A real whippen assembly has several moving parts, whereas the Casio GP series has just one single piece of plastic. What they did is to imitate the pathway of the hammers. In that sense, they are not a true hybrid, like Yamaha and Kawai, which do put an entire acoustic action in their hybrid pianos (with the exception of the hammers). The Casio GP series does not have escapement either, which a real grand piano actions does.
The PHA-50 is an excellent action! It even stacks up quite impressively against fully-wood actions from other manufacturers. At the end of the day, the playing experience is always highly-subjective. The most important thing is that you find a touch and action that you connect and resonate with. But, I certainly would vouch for the PHA-50 being an amazing action. :)
@@MerriamPianos You are a highly skilled, and very talented pianist. If you say something is good, one has to take you at your word. Very few people play as well as you do.
PHA50 Hybrit action is supposed to be smoother and more even action comparing plain PHA50 due to extended pivot length. As a result, you should feel less weight while playing the hybrit version.
@S L Yes, Grand Hybrit Action... :)
Its extended length comparing plain PHA means sporting smoother action.
I think one of the greatest benefits of the GH PHA action is that it can be fitted in a compact stage piano body, may be the new RD will sport that acion. Other top actions on Kawai and Casio are supposed to be great but they are bulky... That's the point Roland really shines I think.
PHA4 standard is a greatly flawed action I wouldn’t recommend to anyone, most units with this action develop loud clicking noises due to a greasing issue Roland choose to completely ignore. Criminal really.
The vast majority of actions will eventually have some unwanted key noise and clicking keys with enough play time put on them. However, these issues can usually be resolved quite easily by an experienced tech. As for the PHA4 action, we have not experienced many issues with that action on any of model to be honest. We have found it to be incredibly reliable with a low warranty claim rate.
@@MerriamPianos telling me stuff I already know, I’ve played and owned dp’s for decades, I know how they work… I had to return 2 brand new fp30x pianos in a row! Due to loud clicking noises in black keys returning, loads of other have complained around the world, so it’s an issue whether you like it or not.
I agree with you. I had two digital pianos and one MIDI controller with PHA-4 and they all developed a clicking noise after 4-5 months. I have to admit that I like PHA-4 in the first couple of months of use. There is really no other digital piano action with three sensors in this price range. I also had FP-90X and Yamaha P-515 and their actions also had the flaws. In addition these two pianos were too heavy for me to consider them to be portable.
What do you think Roland action and yamaha Cvp 800 series
Merriam Music is not a Yamaha dealer, they don't carry the CVP series (or any Yamaha series, only Amazon links for some basic models), so they would not be able to offer a side-by-side comparison. Roland does not offer a product similar to the Yamaha CVP series. Those are advanced arranger digital pianos, while Roland has only basic arrangers with synth action, or digital pianos. But they have the same action as the CLP series.
While we are not Yamaha dealers, we do periodically purchase models or get specific models on trade-in that we use for comparisons. We also keep a list of topic/comparison requests from our community for potential upcoming videos. I will certainly add the Yamaha CVP800 series to the list. :)
Thanks for the introduction, I hope to see the introduction of YAMAHA's keys
You're very welcome! We will do our best to cover the Yamaha actions as well. :)
Happy summer everyone 😊
Thank you! Happy summer to you as well! :)
which one last longer ghs or pha4?
The PHA4 is one of the most durable actions on the market, so I would personally give the edge to the PHA4 over the GHS in terms of longevity.
@@MerriamPianos is the sound and noise of the keys get louder over time? in ph4a
Unless Roland completely changed the design of their PHA-4 Standard action (which i highly doubt) the model of the PHA-4 you show at 13:07 is DEFINTELY NOT the PHA-4 Standard that is used in their actual product line.
I'm not quite sure but the action you show in the picture might be a picture of the no longer produced "PHA-4 PREMIUM" action.
(PHA-4 Premium is basically the same as the PHA-4 Concert but without the wood stickers)
But IT IS NOT the PHA-4 Standard.
Also the PHA-4 model you keep showing (e.g. at 2:53) IS NOT the PHA-4 STANDARD Roland uses in their actual product line.
The model you keep showing is the PHA-4 CONCERT.
It is a completely different action than the PHA-4 STANDARD.
PHA-4 CONCERT (& PREMIUM) have much more in common with the PHA-50 than with the less sophisticated PHA-4 STANDARD.
PS: what i wrote above applies unless Roland indeed decided to change the design of the "PHA-4 Standard" action to a design that is very close to the PHA-50.
Which, as i said before, highly doubt.
It seems you are correct. I looked at pictures of people opening Roland digital pianos with the PHA-4 Standard action, and it doesn't look like the one shown in this video at 13:07, and definitely it is not the one at 2:53. For example, there is one person who opened an FP30 (which has the PHA-4 Standard), and the grey sensor is located below the white key, not under the black structure as in the picture Stu shows here. Also, the hammer stop is pointing away from the end of the key, not towards it.
Hi! Thank you for taking the time to check out our video and write in! Our apologies for the confusion. The particular action display referenced in this video at times is the PHA-4 Concert action, which as you've pointed out, does have some meaningful differences to the PHA-4 Standard action. Of course, we always strive to be as absolutely on the nose as much as we can, but, thankfully, we have an amazing community of knowledgeable pianists that can chip in and help complete the full picture. Thanks so much for your insights! We sincerely appreciate the contribution to ensure that as many piano players as possible get as fully-educated as possible through their piano journey. :)
So Roland FP30X uses the Standard or Concert action mechanism?
@@trombulan standar :(
Hi Stu!
Which action, in your opinion, is better for preventing hands fatigue - Kawai's Grand Feel III or Roland's Hybrid Grand?
I can't practice more than a couple of hours per day because of fatigue and hope that a premium keyboard will help to increase practice time.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for the kind words! We sincerely appreciate it. :)
We do not currently have an LX708 versus CA99/CA901 comparison yet. We are not receiving our first shipment of the CA901 model from Kawai until sometime in January. With that said, you can definitely expect review and comparison videos to follow shortly after we do.
In terms of the Hybrid Grand versus GFIII action and hand fatigue, I would say they're both incredible actions that provide all of the benefits that come along with extended pivot lengths. Personally, I find the Roland actions marginally heavier to the fingers than their comparable Kawai counterparts. Of course, some of this comes down to touch preferences and the subjectivity of the player, but that is my personal take. From that perspective, you may find the GFIII action to be less fatiguing on the hands. However, some players feel a greater degree of control and connectivity with the Hybrid Grand action. My recommendation would be to test both actions out yourself at a showroom if possible. Thanks again and hope this helps! :)
Thank you for the great video!
I'm interested in the FP series and I would like to know about the lifetime of the pianos based on their actions.
I plan on keeping the piano stationary.
There is a huge difference in prices between say FP 30x (PH4) and FP90 (PH90) and the only reason I would go for the FP90 is if it extended the action life of the piano (in other words the keys take much longer to get loose).
Does a PH50 action extend the life of the piano compared to the PH4 models based on their actions?
Or are the actions just a matter of playing taste?
How many years/ hours can you expect the a FP piano of both action types to last, if the piano is stationary?
Thank you so much!
Hi Chase! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in and writing in with your questions! :)
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to specify an expected lifespan of a particular action as there are so many variables to consider. Firstly, the frequency of play will have an impact. Secondly, the context of use (i.e. at home practice versus gigging) will have an impact. Finally, the heavy-handedness and style of play from the pianist will also have a major impact. From that perspective, it is very difficult to offer any specific number. With that said, Roland is amongst one of the most durable and robust digital piano lines on the market, which is particularly true in regard to their actions. We frequently hear from piano players and customers that are using Roland pianos 10, 15, or even 20 years after purchasing them without having had any major issues regarding keys, sensor strips, or other action components.
The Roland PHA4 and PHA50 actions are both exceptionally durable. The wooden side-panelling of the PHA50 gives it a bit more rigidity and, perhaps, a slightly more durable design. Ultimately, the decision between these two fantastic actions would come down to preference of the playing experience. To me, the longer pivot length of the PHA50 and added nuance of the wooden side-panelling makes the PHA50 a meaningful step up from the PHA4. However, the PHA4 is a remarkable action given the price point at which it is offered.
Thanks and hope this helps! :)
At least in two videos (the Kawai NV10 and Casio GP510, if I remember correctly), Stu has mentioned the connection of the action and the sound. In a real instrument, they are inseparable. Actions always trigger a sound in real pianos, and the sound has a fixed volume and character at a certain velocity single key strike. You just don't FEEL the action in a real piano, you always HEAR what it does. In the NV10 video, Stu recommended a particular volume for the NV10 to feel correct: too low volume and it would feel heavy, even though the actual weight of the key hasn't changed. It is not just the action isolated from the sound, but how it feels to you when a sound is played. In digital pianos, actions can be analyzed separated from the sound, but this is an unnatural approach in a real piano that you can't even do. Ask any audio mixing engineer, and they will tell you not to equalize each track in isolation only. You can't just equalize each track and mix them that way, because they interact with each other too. In a similar manner, you can't just look at a piano action separately from the sound. You might like how the action feels, but an organic connection with the sound is also needed. Like Stu said in his NV10 video, you have to play the digital piano at a certain volume to get feedback from the sound, so the action feels correct, the way it happens in a real piano. If the NV10 can give you a misleading action feel depending on the volume setting, any other digital piano too. So, discussing actions by itself has its merits, but it doesn't cover the whole picture.
Very well said! I couldn't agree more. There is a whole element of "psychoacoustics" at play when breaking down and considering the relationship between touch and sound. :)
@@MerriamPianos I agree totally with both of you. I'm happy with the action on my DGX-670 because over all the instrument does sound extremely good; therefore the action is of minimal concern.
@@MerriamPianos Thanks a lot for the feedback :)
Is this the me-too subthread? I'm in on that! An action can feel very different according to its interraction with assorted sound generators.
I have just tried an ES-8 (yeah, at last!) and its RHiii action seems very appropriate, and firmer/nicer to me than on the ES-920. Pehaps they share exactly the same action in reality. To be fair, I had a much longer session on the ES-8, while the ES-920 (almost a year ago) was on an angled rack, which might have altered my perception.
@@Zoco101 Hey Mike, I came up with a way to amplify a digital piano that has 3 features: portable, fires sounds to the audience, fires sound to you. It is a DIY project: mount a 6.5" midrange speaker per channel on a sealed box facing up, sitting on the floor. Similar to a stage monitor, but firing up. No tweeter needed. Use an graphic equalizer that has a 4K slider. You will need a small amplifier, class D for convenience. It sounds great, I built it and tested it. Make two boxes, one for each speaker. The best thing about it is you skip the horn tweeter, which is very directional, so the sound is spread naturally using paper cones. Haven't tried with larger speakers, but I guess even a 12" driver with a boost in the treble (and no tweeter) will work. Just make sure they are professional audio drivers. Horn tweeters can be very bright and lead to listening fatigue, plus pianos don't need it because they are naturally warm.
Are there mechanical consequences to storing a PHA4 KB vertically?
Maybe some of the lube might move around if stored vertically for a long time(?)
I am not entirely sure to be honest, but it would probably be advised to store it horizontally as it is dispositioned and housed within the piano itself if at all possible.
Kawai has specific instructions regarding their digital pianos. They say the following in their Kawai FAQ:
Please be aware that the components inside a Kawai digital piano can be very delicate. When storing or transporting an instrument, please pay particular attention to the following points, which have the potential to be the cause of a failure: Kawai digital pianos are equipped with graded hammer keyboard actions. Do not lay the instrument on its side or store it upright (standing vertically) for an extended period of time.
All Roland boxes have the "This Way Up" symbol printed (the two vertical lines going up), which indicates the instrument is supposed to be stored/transported horizontally.
In practice, you will see Roland warehouses failing to follow the rules, and people storing their keyboards vertically anyway, so maybe it is not very critical.
@@Instrumental-Covers It could be an issue, but it's most pratical to store in a closet on their side, at least for slab pianos.
@@JoeLinux2000 Makes sense.
this is very strange because theres aguy who has repair video in you tube where he opens a n FP 30 and the hammers are metal and and actually under the keys,looking towards the player not the way this model sjhows ,like one would expect that they would be facing towards the front of the piano.
I am not familiar with this video, but that does sound quite strange. I'm not sure why the hammers would be facing in the opposite direction.
@@MerriamPianos ua-cam.com/video/dtlTEeIqkZA/v-deo.html
I've had an early model fp10 and have noticed that the action model you show is different than what I had in mine. The PHA 4 "standard" you show has the hammer positioned so that the head rises behind the hinged end of the key, but the PHA 4 in my fp10 had the hammer positioned so that the head rises under the front of the key. I can't find a reference to it now, but I remember seeing that action referred to as the PHA 4 "compact." There is a video ua-cam.com/video/dtlTEeIqkZA/v-deo.html on how to apply grease to an fp30 which clearly shows this. The action in mine got really noisy (clicky) very early on after the grease squeezed out of the key hinges. I was so bad that I returned it and tried another which I returned for the same issue. I'm wondering if they've changed redesigned these actions or if you're just showing a different model of the PHA 4. Again, the fp10 I had, and the fp30 in the video I referenced, is different than the model you're showing. I'm hoping they fixed the noise issue as it was good otherwise.
Hi there! I'm sorry to hear you experienced issues with your FP10 and PHA4 action. There have been a number of PHA4 variants, but, as far as I know, the PHA4 Standard has been the version included in the FP10 model since its release. In our experiences, the PHA4 action has been incredibly durable and reliable. It is one of the actions with the lowest warranty claim rates in fact. :)
Hello i have Roland JUNO ds 88 Piano,.,., Actions | PHA 4 - PHA 50 ?????? i need Know,.,.Thankyou
I used to have the Roland JUNO-DS61 and the FP50... the JUNO-DS88 has the same action of the FP50, which is "Ivory Feel-G Keyboard with Escapement".
Hi there! The DS88 uses the Ivory Feel-G keyboard action! :)
Roland FP30, 30X, 60, 60X, RD88 have PHA4 Standard, not PHA4 like the one used in RD800. PHA4 is way better than PHA4 Standard, isn't it? Hope to receive opinion from you, Stu.
And the action model on the video was the longer pivot PHA4 instead of the "Standard".
The PHA-4 Concert was the one in the DP-90Se. Roland used a two-tone color plastic keys back then: white keys with manila color on the sides. It looked pretty fake. Now they upgraded the look by adding those two thin strips of wood on the sides of the PHA-50. They are the only company that does that. Yamaha, Kawai, and Casio do not offer white keys with wooden strips on the sides in any of their models.
@@Instrumental-Covers Thanks for your info.
Yamaha NWX, Yamaha GrandTouch, GrandTouch S, Roland PHA50, PHA4, Kawai RHIII, Kawai Grand Feel 3, which one do you think is the best and most durable?
@@minhhieuhuynh5174 Hello. I really don't have a solid opinion on that matter, but I would probably choose either a premium Kawai or Yamaha action. Of the ones you mentioned, that would be Yamaha GrandTouch or Kawai Grand Feel III. And Grand Feel III has all 88 wooden keys, whereas Yamaha GrandTouch has solid natural wood only on the white keys.
"PHA-4 Concert" and "PHA-4 Premium" are the successors of the "PHA-3" action and they are the direct predecessors of the PHA-50.
"PHA-4 Standard" is the successor of the "cheapo line" "Ivory Feel G"
Not saying that the PHA-4 Standard is a bad action (feels very nice but it is a little bit slow and sluggish which makes it unsuitable for fast single key repetitions).
So Roland is not only "cheating" with the "wood keys" but also with the naming convention of their actions.
I'm pretty sure they call their "PHA-4 Standard" like that and not something like "Ivory Feel G II" for tricking the customers into thinking that with the "Standard" they get a very "close relative" of the "PHA-4 Concert or Premium".
I have the FP-10 playing Choping 25-12 and the fatigue is unreal. It's so heavy and playing some of the arpeggios near the top of the keys needs unreasonable levels of force from my index finger. My index finger nails have split and continue to take damage. Would upgrading to pha-50 help? I will continue to play fast chopin.
The ES 110 has lighter keys, but if you can afford a model that has the PHA 50 go for it🎹🎶
@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 I can't justify an fp90... taking delivery of the new Nissan Z next month 😂. Does the ES110 feel realistic though? Heard it doesn't. How's the pivot point?
@@cosmic_gate476 so you can't afford an FP 90X but you bought a Nissan Z? LOL😂😂😂😂 well the keys on the ES 110 do get heavier towards the back, however the RHC is a lighter action so it isn't that much of an issue. As for the feel it doesn't have escapement which I don't think you need IMO because you bearely even feel it on a good acoustic piano, and it is more responsive than the PHA 4 IMO,. If you can it's best to try it in person to see if you like it. I also recomend you try the P 125, DGX 670, ES 520, and ES 920 just incase you don't like the ES 110🎹🎶
Thanks for the question! The action and touch that a player resonates with is a very personal and subjective thing. But, if you are experiencing fatigue, a lighter action may be an asset. The ES110's action is noticeable lighter and the absence of escapement/let-off will potentially help curb some fatigue as well depending on your playing style. With that said, the PHA50 action is also a fantastic solution. It's an incredibly responsive touch that is truly rewarding to play.
@@MerriamPianos I'm not quite sure if the fatigue is entirely from the keys or my technique (I'm untrained). I try to apply good biomechanics but it never feels right and my index nails are destroyed from those semiquaver arpeggios lol. I will test some acoustic pianos, if they feel lighter than the fp10 I might switch
Stu - the best. By a mile.
Stu is awesome and we are lucky to have him! :)
Nobody knows Roland products better than Stu.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in! I certainly can't disagree with that statement. ;)
Not a fan of wood on a digital piano action for a variety of reasons. It has a lot of short comings. Even 2x4's are being replaced by steel studs in home construction. Everyone plays with a carbon fiber tennis racket these days. Wood is totally obsolete. I do believe the length of a piano key is unquestionably important. The thing is you probably are going to choose a digital piano for reasons other than just the action. The best actions are only on the most expensive pianos which are also heavier and harder to transport.
Every player is unique and the details and elements of both the tone and action that are of the most importance will different between different people. With that said, the most important thing is to find a piano action that resonates with you and makes you feel connected to the instrument! :)
@@MerriamPianos I'm OK with the action on the DGX-670, but if it was more like the top end Roland and Kawai actions, I would probably like it better. I feel the overall quality of any digital piano is defined by the quality of the action. The best actions are put in the best sounding digital pianos by the manufacturers. The only reason my DGX sounds as good as it does is that I'm playing it in tandem with the Pianoteq Pro Hamburg Steinway D voice, which to my ear is an extremely realistic simulation of a very high end acoustic grand. It is an extremely satisfying musical experience aside from any short comings of the action which at worst are only minimal. People have pointed out that Merriam is not a Yamaha dealer, so we don't know much about the full line of Yamaha actions. What we do know from other sources is the Yamaha CFX concert grand is considered to be a superb concert artist's piano.
@@JoeLinux2000 You have expressed you don't have Yamaha digital pianos in your area, which is unfortunate. They have more premium actions, just like the other companies. It is useful to remember Merriam Music and most of their audience are supporters of Kawai, Roland, and Casio. Not much Yamaha support in the channel. I think Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Korg, and Casio do something better than the other in some respects. Ideally, you would have them all. Each one of their models has some shortcomings that is addressed by the other company.
@@Instrumental-Covers I really don't know, but I think the action of the DGX-670 is good enough for most players. It's far quieter than the Casio PX-150 I had before. I think too much is made of replicating the acoustic action in digitals as they are different breed of cat. Actually the action of a digital could be superior to the ancient mechanics of acoustics. Clearly my Honda FIT is better than a Ford Model A.
@@JoeLinux2000 That's a good point. The action mechanism in an acoustic piano serves a real purpose, while the actions of digital pianos often times have features that serve no purpose other than feeling similar to an acoustic piano.
I find Roland digital piano very thumpy. The keys made audible unpiano like thumping sound as you play dynamic passages. I find that takes me out of any attempted realism the grand action is trying to simulate...
So which is you favourite action or digital piano, you use?
@@mfurman I can't afford my favourite action, which is the grand millennium iii action of Kawai NV series. I have the CA78 with the grand feel wood action which is like 75-80% concert piano like simulation, which is all I can afford...
@@scdobserver835 It is definitely a very good action and I share your preferences. Unfortunately, I cannot afford (or justify having) either of your your piano choices. I actually mostly use VST piano sound (Garritan CFX and Pianoteq - thinking of getting Ivory II) and Kawai pianos do not have Digital Audio Interface built in.
@@mfurmanEven Roland PHA4 appears to be a robust and reliable mechanism. It's all about preference though, whether you like how it 'feels' as you play. I am more of a classical player so I'm used to the old school grand piano action...
Yamaha DGX-670 = minimal thump. Reasonably quiet, but a short key length spring style action. I believe it is very similar to the old Yamaha KX-88 I have.
JUST PLAY THE PIANO
There are many videos that feature demo and performance segments. This video is intended to be a discussion and overview about Roland's various actions. The differences are not necessarily heard when it comes to action, hence the discussion portion of this video. :)
Stu has serious competition:
ua-cam.com/video/S11Sb6Iq6Vo/v-deo.html
Go away. Don't spam!
@@mayiask654 he's not a spamer🎹🎶
A little competition never hurt anyone! ;)
I think it is just exciting to see the online piano community grow day by day!
Stu, this morning I received an email on your UA-cam site, reading I was a winner is a selection process, and for me to send a text to a number beginning with 171492.........and so on. Is this a legitimate number? Did I quality to win something?
Hi Emerick! Brent from Merriam Music here! These emails/messages are NOT being sent from us. There is a scam account that is posing as Merriam Music and asking our community members to perform certain actions such as what you're describing to claim their prize. Please disregard and/or report them to UA-cam as they are not being sent from us. Thank you for letting us know!
@@MerriamPianos Mahalo Sir, I had a feeling this was a scam. But I still enjoy Merriam Music tutorials! Aloha from Hawaii.