Jon Meacham on the Complexities and Conscience of Abraham Lincoln | Amanpour and Company
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- Опубліковано 24 жов 2022
- Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer and bestselling author Jon Meacham charts the life of Abraham Lincoln in his new book, "And There Was Light: Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle." Meacham speaks with Walter Isaacson about the reasoning behind some of Lincoln’s most difficult decisions and the lessons his political era can offer modern-day America.
Originally aired on October 25, 2022
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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I love John Meacham.
We are blessed to have Jon Meacham and Walter Isaacson share their passion and enlighten us of their knowledge and interpretation of American history. Thank you PBS and Christiane Amanpour for giving them air time.
Abolitionist who were racist, they believed in the political equality of the black people but they did not believe in the social and civil equality in the 19th century.
...not pointing finger here, but that is a rather not complicated sentiment to understand; similar emotion has probably been going on but we all should make the efforts to educate ourselves and clear our conscience.
On the other hand, I truly believe, however I have observed and met others who treat/ed others as civilly, socially, and politically equal, they are of all race, and I am warm.
Every time I hear Meacham speak I admire him all the more. And I admire Lincoln all the more.
Meacham is the best!
Love Lincoln -- quality journalism and inisghts -- thank you Christiane, Walter, Jon! You all are wonderful.
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way, the social and political equality of the white and back races”. Lincoln / 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate.
@@kevinjenner9502 Those ideas changed over time.
I love these Isaacson / Meacham interviews. This is the second one that Amanpour & Co has aired this fall (the first being after Queen Elizabeth II’s passing). Outstanding conversation between two of our nation’s most accomplished living biographers.
I couldn't agree more with you. I find these two men to be not only so informed and learned in their American history, but also just as people to be so calm and cordial.
I find Lincoln’s complexity and considered beliefs and approach fascinating.
Lincoln rose to the challenge in his time ..stood up for what was right ..
Wonderful job Walter and John. Loved it and its timely lessons to all of us. Listening to John Meacham gives me hope.
This interview and his article in “Time Magazine” this last week are a one-two knockout for “Read Your History”…..what goes round comes round…..
Oh good, a new book by Meacham. Can't wait to read it. Thanks for the interview.
I placed a hold at our local library on Meacham's new Lincoln Book. I'm number 78. Clearly, Abraham Lincoln is still relevant.
Just borrowed our library's copy (who am I kidding?--it's a small southern library but at least the county has a copy) and I'm learning a lot despite already knowing a good bit about him.
@@TheAureliac ...Overall so far, I've found Meacham's book a worthwhile read. I'm about half-way through, and am just entering the section where Lincoln brought Grant to Washington to manage the federal military forces following the victories at Gettysburg and Vicksburg. I have a couple of minor quibbles: (1) Meacham overstates, I think, Lincoln's religionism. To the degree that he made appeals to religion, I suspect it was more a political expedient to satisfy the tenor of the times rather than an impulse that sprang from genuine faith on Old Abe's part; (2) as an historian with impeccable credentials, Meacham should know better than to impose 21st Century morals on 19th Century events --- as such, his editing of the "n" word is utterly inexplicable We are adults and understand "historical context." But we do NOT need to be shielded from ugly words. If Lincoln's contemporaries used the "n" word to describe Black people ("negroes"), let those words stand in any quote used for educational purposes.; and, finally (3) in my view, Meacham perceives abolitionist leanings on Lincoln's part much earlier in his career than I suspect was actually the case. This is open to honest differences of opinion, however, based on the sparse documentation for Lincoln's incremental embrace of anti-slavery views.
Jon Meacham, always a pleasure to listen to him!
I love Jon Meacham, so intelligent and well spoken. This shows how far his republican party has fallen from grace.
Nice work. Great subject. Thanks
Jon, Walter. I think you have got it.
Found and bought the book
AND THERE WAS LIGHT
yesterday. First, let me say I was born, raised, and educated in Illinois.
THE LAND OF LINCOLN.
What we have obtained in Lincoln's time is that slavery is not American anymore.
As a result of the Civil War we have made it official that slavery is against the Constitution and the Law.
In our times we need to assert several truths.
We need to make sure all Americans know that Founding Father James Wilson asserts we are a Republic so we have the Senate in our legislature.
AND WE ARE A DEMOCRACY,
SO THERE IS ALSO A HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IN OUR LEGISLATURE AS WELL.
BECAUSE OF LINCOLN WE HAVE ASSERTED ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. IT US LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION SAYS SO IN ITS POST CIVIL WAR AMENDMENTS.
The racism of the Republican Insurrection needs to get clobbered with these facts. Universal voting rights are the law of the land. States Rights has its areas of priority if the Federal law and the Constitution DO NOT CLAIM IT.
BUT AS WE SEE EQUALUTY IS CLAIMED IN FEDERAL LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION. SO STATES RIGHTS CANNOT PREVAIL IN THIS AREA:
ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.
AND THEREFORE HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE. SO WE MUST BE SURE TODAY THAT WE UPHOLD THE DECISIONS MADE BY LINCOLN'S WAR.
STATES CANNOT STOP PEOPLE OF COLOR FROM VOTING.
Great book. Just picked it up.
Just started it: I'm hooked.
If this is sermonious, I have to say that I love the sermoniousness of history of this kind. Thank you Jon Meacham
Meacham is incredibly right on here, especially about how the social movement of blacks North from military emancipation and their assimilation into the army. This enlightened Lincoln as well as engaging Northerners with blacks in ways they never really had before. Lincoln, as well as others, was also affected also by the intelligence of men and women like Douglass, and this shifted his thinking. However he never advocated full social equality. Read "The Fiery Trial" by Eric Foner. comes to similar conclusions.
Two great biographers!
Yes, love it!!! A segment on American history. Warm greetings from Australia 🦘
I just finished his book. An excellent book on Lincoln.
Good work guys. Thank you.
Great interview!!
Why would this American history not be taught in schools?
That sentence read aloud!! 🫢 W.O.W. Conscience.
Wouldn’t it have been fascinating to live during Lincoln’s time? We could see and feel the issues as they were happening back then.
I think you're a racist! You need to take a walk in black communities if you feel the need to romanticise history. Perhaps ask a black person what it's like being shot at by a white police officer.
Listening to this about Lincoln brings to mind the comment of east Texan Bill Moyers about his sometime boss Lyndon Johnson: ‘eleven of the most complicated people I have ever known.’
There is a certain real and still operative sense in which Lincoln, and yes even L. B. Johnson, are the United States today - and also the states in the Confederacy in the 19th c. and since.
The whole point of Republicanism was specifically against the extension of slavery. That was issue that Lincoln ran on - that extending the Missouri Compromise line "compromise" was a non-starter
All republicans weren't against slavery Andy. Especially during that time period when Abraham Lincoln was the US President. And some republicans were angry with Abraham Lincoln for trying to end slavery and supported the confederate army during that time period also. And I believe that some republicans support slavery somewhere on this planet now.
@@0820XXX The raisin d'etre of the Republican Party, as well as the specific platform that Lincoln ran on in 1860 was specific to the issue of preventing the spread of slavery in any additional territory which hasn't come in a States yet - and which the Congress had jurisdiction over.
The issue of "Republicans [being] against slavery" was a completely separate issue - you are creating a straw man here. The Republican Party at the time and the platform Lincoln ran on in 1860 did NOT call for the abolition of slavery where it already existed and I never said that it did.
My point was specifically brought up as regarding the "Compromise" that Mr Meacham was talking about that was being offered when Lincoln came into office in March 1861. As such, since Lincoln and the Republicans ran on and came into power on a platform of prohibiting the spread of slavery into new Territories, it wasn't a "Compromise" at all and, in my opinion, shows the bad faith of the South in the crisis. And I think that that is a very reasonable interpretation.
The whole thing of actually "ending slavery" was a much more contentious issue and I agree that he didn't have universal Republican support to that end. But that isn't what I was talking about and it isn't what was being discussed during those initial months of 1861.
I hope that we can agree on that.
Well done!!
Lincoln, Douglas such leaders.
What he "didn't see" or perceived, real or not, was more than likely the reason it succeeded. Looking forward to reading book!
And not only why but how, amazingly how
Professor thesaurus, nice
Lincoln was larger than life, the greatest President. FDR and Kennedy were great, too.
One of the issues that drive me crazy when talking about Lincoln in the quoting of his racist lines is that most (all?) were made during speeches while he was running for office. Remember, he was running in Illinois with its infamous "Black Laws." If he had said anything supporting blacks, he would have had absolutely no chance of winning. His "racism" was more of a political issue than personal one.
Could you talk a bit on what is called "the Dakota 38?" Thank you.
Meacham: " Lincoln believed If you gave an inch on slavery then the South would have come back again and again..."
@ Charles Justice. As it happens, the South has continued to fight that same civil war again and again ever since losing it - to this very day.
Come back? The Southern states acceded freely to the Union then freely seceded from the Union. They left the Union. Lincoln and the Republicans couldn't tolerate dissent, so they invaded the South. The "Civil War", if you follow what Meacham said, was only ever about slavery when Lincoln realized he needed to incentivize black soldiers to fight his war of conquest. Yes, as a Southerner I still want to leave the Union as we did in 1860/61...and you'll probably still say it's about racism and slavery because there are no Constitutional, or political, arguments to defend Lincoln and Unionism (aka totalitarianism).
@@DocAkins Judging from your comment, the South truly is a lost cause and slavery is your original sin.
@@earthjustice01 Judging by your comment you despise the Constitution and individual liberty in favor of government tyranny...just like Lincoln!
@@DocAkins Lincoln was the greatest U.S. President in history. Slavery was the greatest stain on the country and the constitution. The action of the southern states seriously weakened the U.S. as a viable nation. The same thing is happening today with renewed calls to seccede. This will fatally weaken the United States, at a time when it is surrounded by enemies like Russia, Iran, and China. The U.S. constitution is a constitution of the United States, not the Divided States.
In other words Lincoln was truly spiritual but not religious as many nones are claiming to be today.
Hi Walter. Love your work! Could you do a segment on 1776? It seems the 6 Jan insurrectionists got their dates mixed up. 1776 Declaration of Independence from a foreign English govt (King George III) in the US colonies. And 1789 when the Constitution came into existence and created the US govt and it's three branches of govt.
i am very disappointed that Isaacson did not ask Meacham about Lincoln's support of the Corwin Amendment in 1860, and his endorsement of that amendment and its perpetual establishment of slavery in the South during his 1861 inaugural address.
Have you voted for Warnock, today. Go for it Georgia. Give a good man a good job and get a great return on your investment. Warnock all the way!
Love Linconl his was sunflower in the mud.
Politics at best is the art of comprise in many times. Difficult to achieve! Have to realize that the United States is a young country rife with immaturity.
Even considering the time frame and contemporary American beliefs of the period, his speech during the 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate presents a Lincoln unrecognizable in its racism towards blacks.
So did Ukraine deserve to be invaded for _provoking_ Russia? Please state your answer in for the form of a empirical statement please Mr. Meacham.
Why won/t google tell me which of my posts they find offensive and why?
Not sure you would get it.
What is name writer
The original Walking Encyclopedia? Yup.
Man fell into evil through the transgression by the woman , beguiled by the serpent ,at Eden bringing in death , unto thus day , before which God planted the Knowledge of the tree of good & evil , what is the relationship with the fall & the said tree ?
In order to understand history you have to study History.
Kudos to Walter / I know he wanted so badly to slip in the term “The Blacks “ Man you are a whole history teacher - plz drop that term from your vocabulary… you really have to study people and their behavior/ I appreciate his work , but I know he can be conscious enough to not use that term. I was listening closely - study the facts of history and you can never be wrong …. Opinions are opinions and facts are facts …
Fred Douglass said Lincoln was the white man’s president first. Lincoln hated slavery but was not a believer in black equality. And Lincoln loved black face minstrel shows. John Brown was the true egalitarian. John Brown made no compromise. John Brown wanted to arm black people. But the Lincoln religion is the largest cult among US historians. It has a life of its own and requires a constant stream of Lincoln bios. That said, Mr Meacham is a great scholar and his work is appreciated.
Yes, Brown wanted to arm black people...with pikes against guns... all heroes have clay feet
@@garethamery3167 well not exactly GA although no plan is perfect and no leader is perfect as you say. But the context was steep mountain redoubts and very difficult terrain, more for small groups, not combat on battlefields. And the pikes would be complemented by more trained men with sharps rifles, so the plan is not so flawed as you surmise, and arms could be added as time passed. The pikes would also be quite useful for security in the wild. The bigger point is that there would be no armies fighting in such difficult circumstances and more opportunity for contact fighting too. He shoots his rifle, misses, and has to reload and you have a pike. Don’t sell the plan short. Too bad JB was a poor tactician, because judging the actual mountain-based campaign upon the failure at Harpers Ferry is not the same thing. Not saying you’re doing that but many do. But you should evaluate Brown’s plan according to models of mountain/guerrilla warfare such as found in other revolts. I don’t think your entirely fair despite just by mentioning the pikes. Still, all heroes are flawed and make errors too. I just happen to think JB was far more progressive than AL. Best wishes.
I will read Gordon Wood, Joseph Ellis, Allan Guelzo and HW Brands for history. Not instant historians like these two guys.
Abraham Lincoln was even more progressive than Jon Meacham portrays. Lincoln does indeed deserve his reputation as the Great Emancipator and, moreover, a place in the quest for racial justice.
In Chicago, in July 1858, Abraham Lincoln pleaded with his audience, "let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man; this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position; discarding our standard that we have left us. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal...I leave you, hoping that the lamp of liberty will burn in your bosoms until there shall no longer be a doubt that all men are created free and equal."
Frederick Douglass was "impressed with his entire freedom from popular prejudice against the colored race" after meeting with Lincoln three times in the White House, and in 1865 called him "emphatically the black man's president."
In the 1850's, Lincoln had stated that he did not feel that it "bettered their condition" to keep Blacks in America as "underlings." In a private letter, he wrote that he "abhors the oppression of Negroes"; and he was not just referring to slavery. Lincoln stated in that letter how slavery had "the power to make me miserable," because it denied Blacks the right, the hope, to rise in life. He also wrote for his private notes a reflection that basing slavery on skin color, or intellect or moral endowments was wrong-headed as everyone could be said to differ in all those regards to some degree or another. Later, in 1859, Lincoln wrote against those white men who "insidiously" argue that the principles of the Declaration of Independence only apply to whites. In another private letter, from the time, he said he had "no objection" to marriage between black and white.
Yet in the 1858 Illinois US Senate race against Stephen Douglas, the race-baiting incumbent whose intent was to paint Lincoln as a dangerous radical, Lincoln was running against the territorial expansion of slavery, and before racist voters in Illinois. Thus he tailored his message during the debates, in statements such as that referenced in an interview with the local Black Student Union president where he expressed pessimism about the future of race relations in America acknowledging the audience's prejudices: "there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
These and other statements were made because in 1858 he could only really advocate an anti-slavery position.
Lincoln never said Blacks were inherently inferior. But, if he had advocated, or left unanswered charges of being for, full equality in 1858, he would most certainly have committed political suicide. As one historian has said, had Lincoln not made concessions to the political climate, "the Lincoln of history simply would not exist." Lincoln did state that the purpose of the Declaration of Independence is to "augment the happiness and value of life to all people, of all colors, everywhere."
Lincoln said the treatment of Blacks in the US did not "accord with justice." Colonization was always to be voluntary; President Lincoln felt white prejudice so intractable that he urged black leaders to consider it, saying, "Go where you are treated the best." The goal was the establishment of a black-run government and society, free of oppression. Colonization was abandoned as ventures failed, and African-Americans largely rejected it. Lincoln said blacks and whites would just have to "live out of the old relation and come out better prepared for the new." While disagreeing with the Radical Republicans as to tactics, he said that he shared their sentiments and that at least they were "facing Zionwards." It is not inconceivable that Lincoln still wished to afford those Blacks who wished to escape white racism the choice, even as he was working to include Blacks in the American polity.
Frederick Douglass, who as a statesmen concerned with advancing the rights of Black Americans, placed a priority on work toward the achievement of those rights before seeking equal rights for women. Douglass certainly believed in women’s equality but felt Black rights would be jeopardized if not focused on first. Such is also the case with Lincoln, who did believe in freedom and equality, but who knew that freedom and equality in America would be moot points if disunion prevailed. Frederick Douglass knew this too:
“His great mission was to accomplish two things: first, to save his country from dismemberment and ruin; and, second, to free his country from the great crime of slavery. To do one or the other, or both, he must have the earnest sympathy and the powerful cooperation of his loyal fellow-countrymen. Without this primary and essential condition to success his efforts must have been vain and utterly fruitless. Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible. Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined.”
His reputation as "Great Emancipator" rests not only on the Emancipation Proclamation and the Thirteenth Amendment with it's unprecedented enforcement clause and unneeded presidential signature, but his request of Frederick Douglass, before his re-election and the 13th Amendment, to devise a plan to get as many slaves as possible out of the South while his re-election, the issue of the Proclamation's constitutionality, and the outcome of the war seemed in doubt.
President Lincoln also approved of bills abolishing segregation on omnibuses in D.C.; for allowing black witnesses in federal courts; for equalizing penalties for the same crime; for equal pay for black soldiers; for ending discrimination on the basis of color in hiring US Mail carriers. He welcomed, for the first time, an ambassador from Haiti; he publicly and equally credited Black troops as well as white for military successes; African-Americans picnicked on the White House grounds; his respect and equal treatment of Blacks both in Springfield, Illinois, before his presidency, and among his White House staff and at visits to field hospitals and troops is well-documented. He supported the activities of the Freedmen's Bureau. He approved the transfer of hundreds of thousands of acres of abandoned plantation lands to freedmen and their families.
When he visited occupied Richmond, he took off his hat and returned the bow of an elderly black man--an act of equality noted by sullen white onlookers and the press alike. In what was to be his last public address, Lincoln called for public schooling for blacks, and for the vote for black soldiers and the well educated. John Wilkes Booth, in the crowd, seethed "that means -citizenship", and vowed that the speech would be Lincoln's last.
Lincoln thus was killed because Black suffrage, Black rights, Black lives did matter to him.
Also, noteworthy is Lincoln's promise following the 1862 Sioux-U.S. War. As a young man Lincoln had saved a Native American's life from bloodthirsty soldiers. Now, as President, Lincoln commuted the sentences of 265 Dakota men, having insisted that in review a distinction be made between murder or rape and participation in battle.
Lincoln had earlier asked the Secretary of the Interior to look into the matter of Indian Affairs reform. When Bishop Henry Whipple visited Lincoln in Washington to plead the cause of the 303 condemned men and to inform Lincoln of the perfidy of Government agents toward the Indians, Lincoln said that he could "feel the rascality of this Indian business down to my boots" and vowed to several people that when "this war ends, and if I live, this Indian system shall be reformed!" He brought the subject up in Annual Message to Congress, but Congress did nothing.
In 1864 Lincoln told the Native American rights advocate John Beeson, "You may rest assured that as soon as the pressing matters of this war is settled the Indians shall have my first care and I will not rest until Justice is done to their and your satisfaction."
Lincoln had inherited a lamentable and deplorable Indian system. Who knows what a second term might have brought to US government-Native American relations.
Trump even praises Lincoln, lol
“As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is not democracy.” - ABRAHAM LINCOLN
That’s a principal of democracy but god wants people slavery to him, Christofascism want people slavery to the White race. GOP’s posterity didn’t even read the European history.
Conscience, blah blah, ethos, blah blah, faith, blah blah the abolitionists and anti-slavery movement weren't such paragons of idealism as you'd like us to believe Meacham; the abolitionists and anti-slavery movement didn't want the industrializing North to have all those new jobs filled with slaves and get cut out of that burgeoning employment pool. Pulitzer biographer and English B.A. holds the keys to Lincoln's motivations and mindset from his historical expertise huh.
Is there such a thing as a forgetful historian
Can't win cause I win. But people complaining about my uncivilized behavior by using my love for women to prove it , s a championship trophy worth its weight in longing they'll unburden and accept the truth...
Furniture!!
Pollyanna ! He always is a dreamer and today is not 100 years ago or 150 years ago ! People in America don't want democracy anymore so deal with that ! Damn
Unfortunately, it seems that way.
*SOME people
We still have a much stronger than a fighting chance. :)
@@skwarepeg1068 I hope you are right.
Thank you John Mecham for saying the modern term black Americans rather than Water Isaac saying The Blacks… you see the difference? Just wanted to bring that up because Walter is very straightforward on calling black Americans “The Blacks “ in modern term …. He should know better ….. 7:54 … press play .. Where is Michelle Martin when you need her . She would have been great … Keep Hari away from these kinds of interviews … he’s still a baby when it comes to actually knowing history especially anything dealing with civil rights for black Americans.
Abraham Lincoln gives me the creeps.
Why?
@@SusanOnTVShows Just has a really creepy looking, cruel face.
@@albin2232 His face always struck me as haggard and worn, as if he’d lived and worked through tremendous difficulties - poverty, grief, strife.
@@albin2232 That's it? That's your reason? My god, that is shallow, the reasoning of a 3 year old.
@@albin2232 A lot of those 19th century people did tho - life was completely different than what it is today - it was much much harder. Only rich people who had slaves and servants to do the work for them were able to look good. Lincoln did not lead a life of leisure - and it showed.
There are thousands of books(too many) written about former US president Abraham Lincoln. And I didn't totally agree with all the comments that Jon Meacham said about Abraham Lincoln above also. And Abraham Lincoln wasn't the only person during that time period that was trying to help end slavery also. And I must say that there are and where some other people of other races were slaves on this planet than just some people of color in the past, etc. also.
Try and minimize the national and personal trauma all you want, but four million men, women, and children are a lot more than "just some people of color". That total is more than the population of over 20 states today.
@@LeftysLefty If David T. had even seen the book, he'd know that this meticulously detailed and sourced book gives more than enough evidence to believe almost all of Meacham's statements. I'm guessing this troll just doesn't like the guy who issued The Emancipation Proclamation.
Nice interview, but I've seen nothing in any of Lincoln's public statements or private correspondence indicating any kind of religious sentiment beyond the conventional ceremonial deism. To say Lincoln was motivated by religious faith seems absolutely absurd to me.
It would truly be revolutionary if journalists and news organizations interviewed notable people when they aren't selling something like a book or film. Otherwise the whole segment is really just a fucking ad.
Fred Douglass said Lincoln was the white man’s president first. Lincoln hated slavery but was not a believer in black equality. And Lincoln loved black face minstrel shows. John Brown was the true egalitarian. John Brown made no compromise. John Brown wanted to arm black people. But the Lincoln religion is the largest cult among US historians. It has a life of its own and requires a constant stream of Lincoln bios. That said, Mr Meacham is a great scholar and his work is appreciated.