I've found it quite interesting that when issues of race and justice have come up, at least over the past five years or so, among many of my white evangelical friends, the first person they mention is Voddie Baucham. When I mention others like John Perkins, Thabiti Anyabwile, David Bailey, Jemar Tisby, et al, they are unfamiliar and very disinterested in doing any real work or reading to explore the complex issues of racial justice. This is the problem, too many want simple answers to complex issues. Also, there is a particular dominate epistemological orientation that is not open to any other source for truth, such as history, social data, and life experiences of Black folks. There is a very strong confirmation bias happening with white evangelicals' following of Baucham. Also, his rather forceful manner of communicating makes it seem like he has more "truth," because it makes him look more of authoritative than others. Finally, I have recently found myself agreeing with some of my friends that there is something taht comes before reconciliation...reckoning, which means dealing honestly with the issues that have caused the harm, injury, division, etc., even if those issues have historical origins.
@Alex Carlson I always get a little nervous when people cite Romans 1 because I get the feeling they haven’t read Romans 2 and don’t understand that Paul was potentially even mocking the Uptight Citizens Brigade. The issue of racial justice is mostly one of repentance - recognizing that wrong was done, and continues to be done, because of racial issues. The Floyd case is illustrative - was what was done to Floyd wrong? Many can’t even see that even after the conviction of his murderers.
I didn't know really anything about Voddie or Jemar before this but I read essays by each of them on the Michael Brown case in Ferguson and Voddie is clearly correct. Michael Brown is the only person to blame for his death.
Your community is in shambles because there is a 74% out of wedlock birth rate. Direct line to poverty and dysfunction but that’s not a conversation you guys are willing to have. Zero white people are making your men leave your women and children. I’m not gonna stand here and be gaslit by you guys lol
@@venomfangnext If white evangelicals don’t want to talk about race reconciliation in the church…..just say that! No need to diminish troubling race relations in the church as unbiblical when the Bible is clear about it.
As a black person walking in mostly white spaces I would have to agree they like having me there to add color. But I must assimilate. I am often tokenized. And if I vary from the conformist doctrine in support of my black brothers and sisters I'm often quickly silenced with firm opposition. To be honest it's wearing on me and my family. My mother and her family were often the only black family serving in predominantly white churches her her life. And even to her it feels worse today than when her parents were serving in the 60s and 70s.
That is sad to hear. I wish our churches would be different :( On a different level, I had a similar experience as a francophone in an anglophone church; cultural and linguistic assimilation was assumed. Yet they continued to denigrate and mock francophones sometimes forgetting I was there. Personally I assimilated, yet I can say that I was never truly welcomed and accepted.
I know the feeling. I've experienced the same throughout my life. A few years ago, I made the decision to leave predominantly white church settings that would not speak the truth.
@@bman11714 I agree and partially disagree. Tokenization is used more on the left but is also used on the right. To me, the solutions are to become independent from a system that only seeks to use people, create our own systems, and partner only with others who share common interests and goals.
@@bman11714 the alternative, though, is pure segregation. The left’s solution of tokenism might be a bridge to fixing the problem, but it’s definitely not fixing the problem itself.
Voddie Bauchman and others need to dissect the issue of mass incarceration when discussing black fatherless. Blacks are arrested at far higher rates and given harsher sentences. Remember the "War on Drugs?"
And The Stop and frisk policy. Here is a video of what is going on behind the Breonna Taylor case that no one talks about ua-cam.com/video/dbn_r4lzmM8/v-deo.html
We (blanket statement intended) are tired of trying to convince the larger white community that our experiences are not just real but that we actually know our lived experience better than you. Proximity is not brotherhood. One sided assimilation is not brotherhood. I truly enjoy this podcast bc it keeps me from believing we are completely alone. Once we reach that state of awareness...no one wins
Holy Post could benefit from having a black panelist on a more consistent basis, especially when addressing racial issues. I do feel that whites tend to identify more strongly with conservative Republicanism to the exclusion of even biblical values.
@@ConnorMarc also, if they would stop hiding behind evangelicals or conservative evangelicals and just say white people or white christians. Cut through the bull and get to the issue.
Just had a really sad moment. I wanted to share this episode and realized that I only have a handful of people who I can share this episode without starting a fight that would probably end ugly. 😢😢😢
That’s exactly what I said. In some ways the ability to assess more information is not rendering results of a more informed public. That was brought out in the Brooks interview.
I need more of Comrade Katelyn lol! In all seriousness she’s is a wonderful person and her dialogue is one of my favorite parts of the podcast! Evening though I would be considered a hippy dippy progressive, I find myself agreeing with most of what she says. That gives me hope that there is a space where Christians from different political perspectives can really vibe together.
You know what might be helpful? To have a Black Evangelical in the room when you're discussing issues of race with the panel. I know you quite often have very fine Black Evangelicals in the interview section, but, if you'll pardon the expression, segregating them off from the group discussion seems counterproductive to what you're trying to achieve by having these discussions in the first place. As a Black Evangelical, I just completely disagreed with Skye's take that the election of Obama had anything to do with the reaction to Trayvon Martin's killing. I think the reaction would have been identical no matter who was president. I also reject his idea that Evangelicals simply ignored racial reconciliation, or considered it a "luxury." No, they actively opposed it. And continue to. I feel a Black Evangelical on the panel would have pushed back on some of these points.
Depending on which Black Evangelical they end up with. Clarence Thomas, Candace Owens, Ben Carson, Herschel Walker. That class of B.E. would gladly offer a distorted view. They are the types Malcolm warned of. Honey words in the house but no connection to those toiling in the fields.
Would be great to hear a discussion like this between multiple Black pastors of different backgrounds - what they agree on, what they disagree on, etc…
As a black Christian woman, I don't agree with Voddie at all. I never hear them speak out against injustice when it comes to black people, but are quick to speak against anyone who does speak out against it. If you are quiet when injustice takes place against black people then should remain quiet when we speak out against it. That's what has turned me off with the White Evangelicals and others like them. Voddie and all of them were so quick to speak out against being woke, but are silent on racism.
Phil: “My wife is helping me to learn lessons” - that gave me a chuckle. A lot of good advice: We should listen to marginalized voices - Kaitlyn Does this argument ask anything of me or does it merely confirm my beliefs - Good Question to ask ourselves Skye You become what you love, so fall in love with the right things - David Brooks. Sounds a lot like: “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”
Great discussion and perspectives! As a Black man, I agree with much that you said. I was also amazed at the depth of all of your perspectives of what I would call Black issues even though obviously, none of you are Black. I really like this channel and have shared it with many.
Grace and Peace to you. I go to one of the only two predominantly black churches in Louisville, KY that are in the SBC. My pastor disagrees with Voddie. However, given that the pastor of the other church graduated from The Master's Seminary, my guess is that he's a Voddie fan.
The SBC has purposefully attacked Critical Race Theory., because if Donald Trump. The church has voted to remove Black history from colleges. The church plays innocent, but is very diabolical.
I want a list of the books Kaitlyn is reading for her class! These issues with capitalism have been percolating in my brain recently, and I'd love some more resources to read.
@@jdtreharne Capitalism.. profits at ANY cost. The LOVE of money is the root of all sorts of evil like... Pollution, p@r#, profiteering politicians and clergyman, poison pharmaceuticals, prostitution, murder, usury, slavery, hyper inflated CEO salaries while the actual workers get peanuts, debt, out of control medical cost..on and on and on. I would bet the farm that if 90% the wealthy and powerful people in the USA were people of color, the folks who love crony predatory capitalism would not like it so much. I will never forget an old book I saw when visiting Boone plantation in South Carolina. "Prayer for Profit"
@@superherosoulsinger9041 I disagree with your assumptions on capitalism. But to start, do you *really* believe that capitalism *causes* prostitution? If you do I have some Bible verses for you.
Your discussion on the attitude toward helping black people through welfare does not take into account the real mindset of white supremacy. The attitude of white supremacy, that supported slavery and Jim Crow, assumes that black people EXIST to help/serve/be under white people. Like, that is our purpose. We are for making the lives of white people easier, just serving, slaving away, under our betters, etc. We are not to speak up, since that makes white people uncomfortable. We are not to ever receive anything that is forced (like through taxes) from white people. Of course, any white person who does choose to help individually or listen individually is automatically a SAINT for doing so in that mindset, too. But black people are FOR serving white people, so of course any forced/systemic helping of black people is wrong. Many white people still have that mindset. They don't want to help because we are not worthy of help because we are meant to be lower. Impoverished is seen as our natural, deserved state in this country. It is a shame.
I've always liked David Brooks. He's a reasonable guy and reflects what is good about conservative thought. Moderate voices get kicked to the curb these days. Thanks for bringing him on the program.
@@PhilTomson no they didn’t; and if you’re trying to equate what Phil is saying to what Jesus said/did, then I suggest you study or reread scriptures. Jesus was never a social reformer. Phil is enshrouding the word with critical theory teachings.
There can be no reconciliation based on race because to "reconcile" means to "go back to a time when the relationship was good, a right relationship" ... Black and White America have NEVER had a good or right relationship in 400+ years. Race, by itself, is a social construct. So if White Americans are not willing to deal with the issues surrounding white supremacy and systematic racism there can be no point where we can come together. You cannot oppress me and call me sister at the same time. This is why White America's claim to want to "reconcile" is completely disingenuous. The work of social justice and "reconciliation" is both individual and collective. The Church is not called to be one or the other but both. Worship is individual but it is also collective because we worship in a community with others. Also, the issue surrounding "fatherlessness" within the Black community is a myth. Black fathers are more involved in their children's lives than any other demographic (there is research to back this) in America. The myth was created around whether or not the mother and father were married. If they are not married, the woman is considered a single mother, even if the father lived in the home.
They fail to conform to the social norms on marriage demanded…. with the assumption that the nuclear family is the only correct way to do it (even though it’s a fairly modern idea).
@@venomfangnextrace is a social construct. Racism is a white supremacist ideology. Or in the case of DuBois, a religion. In the case of Trekel, an American pastime.
Only 36:09 into this episode and had to comment. First thank for hitting the subject of Dr. VB and other voices like his. As a white Pentecostal Latino from the the New England area, I feel like I have whiplash from those voices that sound so different from the Black Women who helped to shape my views. Great Episode!!! Very important Phil! Phil! Phil! Social Media Fast Please!!
Brooks makes a good point. I'm not exactly fond of old time religion, but the flaw in modern society in America is assuming that people are naturally good, and don't require external guidance. Anybody who has spent time with children realizes that isn't so.
I’m sure you don’t expect to get former Christian listeners but my background is SBC seminary. I just have to say I am damn proud to have left it all behind. There is no bottom to the SBCs bad behavior and using a black pastor to reconcile who is at odds with 90% of the black church is par for the coarse. They know, they damn well know that they are being super racist with that behavior, it’s why they try to turn it around, it’s why they fight so hard. Good luck in your fight salvaging the church, oops I mean the Republican Party 👍
I am a VERY non religious black person who found this podcast recently and have began binging the episodes. So far, I am impressed and have enjoyed hearing from people who seem to actually represent Christian values. Thank you for discussing controversial topics in a very constructive way, I am glad you're here.
We know the game… it’s transparent and very obvious to all of us with the discernment needed for the season. I think that when communicating with someone who you know is not aware or receptive of the truth you have to express, you have to ask yourself if your intention is to teach or to fight. Because either could occur and you should have a practical plan for both. Phil is telling the truth. Now those who don’t agree will learn from what he said and “do the research” to determine if something more and substantial can be learned. Fact: Ahmaud Aubrey and Travon Martin are the same case- same circumstances. We have a problem with white conservative Christians. Skye is right that the trigger is Pres. Obama but it’s a symptom of a deep, disturbing and multi-generational racial divide that was ALWAYS THERE. If we can’t handle the truth and its complexity, we can’t root out Christian racism. Race is ubiquitous to the white conservative mindset. They want a certain black personality. One who does not subscribe to the fact that this country has not addressed the race issue. “Look like a black person but not have a black voice” - that’s great Phil. I’m glad to see y’all work this out. Thank you for trying and keeping it real Phil. This will take time and work.
Kaitlyn - can you share some books/resources/sources you've found valuable concerning Christianity and Capitalism? I'd love to learn more if you could make a few recommendations. Ty!
Great job getting Brooks on the show. I've loved reading/hearing his views for years. I found Brooks in 2008 when my political science professor assigned PBS news hour for a project.
Again✅🏆 This episode (like so many others) express EXACTLY what is on my heart. You ALL bring so much wisdom and clarity. SOOOO GLAD I found your podcast as I needed to hear I was NOT alone. I truly appreciate your heart for TRUTH. Blessings!
Fatherlessness isn't the root of the problem in the black community. It is a symptom of the problem, which is the same problem that all communities have: sin. The solution to sin is the gospel, discipleship and service. Men who accept the gospel and are properly discipled and are served through love will generally be good fathers and avoid unplanned pregnancies and premarital sex. It is our responsibility as the church to make this happen.
The root cause of much of that sin, though, is despair. Many do not trust that they will ever live lives worth living so they lose themselves in whatever meager pleasures they can find. If they had hope that they would be able to provide for themselves and their children they wouldn’t be as desperate for short term gains, but their lack of faith in human systems is well justified when those systems have routinely failed them. White people living in poverty are justifiably angry at a system that has not delivered on promises, even though they have fought to preserve that system that was supposed to benefit them and failed or intentionally abused them. Most (not all) Black folks have no illusions that society as a whole is there to help them. It’s easy to claim faith in easy times when there is no need for hope, but when times are hard, as they have been for some groups in the US for centuries, well, broad is the road as they say. The root cause of that sin is a lack of hope. Faith, hope, and love, and the greatest is love, but hope (and faith) are also very important.
But part of that problem is that those men grew up without fathers and didn't know how to be fathers, because their own fathers were either killed by racists or put in jail unjustly by racists. That causes a cycle of children without fathers. Not to mention the on going unjust incarceration that is still going on where young black boys are put in jail for years for minor offenses where a white boy would only get a warning if anything at all.
Absolutely loved this podcast!! I would say that this was the best one I have heard! I came from a more conservative perspective and you all have been helpful for me. I appreciate the thought and input that you all provide. I am relatively new, maybe listening to around 15 episodes to 20. It could be slightly more. I've probably been deconstructing for about a year, regardless of the conversation on the last one saying not to deconstruct or not to say the term. I am re-examininf what I believe by going more to the Scriptures. Anyhow, everyone keep it up and you too Phil. The guy from the Skillet group was talking about you. I don't know what was said. Till the 500th episode.
Reconciliation without repentance of wrong does not work. 1. Acknowledgement & Repentance of America's wrong doing. 2. Behavioral/systemic change 3. Reconciliation in the hurt/wronged communities tearms.
Great show folks. Always appreciate the thoughtfulness. My own thought on the discussion about systemic reform in the Christian mind: My experience leads me to believe this is closely tied to the discipleship conversation last week. I used to lament to my favorite pastor that our church did discipleship as trivia. Once you could regurgitate the right theological truisms you had basically arrived. All that was needed was time for those truisms to infect all of your life. I compare it to a medical school that only taught medicine by asking students to memorize a list of the correct answers to the tests the curriculum called for. Just like that system would churn out bad physicians, trivia discipleship seems to churn out people who don't know how and are terrified to question and evaluate their truisms. I had a discussion with my former adult ministries pastor and pointing out that his opposition to abortion involved a systemic remedy was met with genuine shock on his part.
1) According to Voddie Baucham's sermon of April 6, 2014 The Providence of God and the People of Promise, he is a self-proclaimed "fire-breathing, TULIP believing, five-point Calvinist." 2) His Wikipedia entry states that he "is Reformed in his theology, and subscribes to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith," as well as "a board member of Founders Ministries" which is an association of Calvinists unofficially affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. 3) Recently the Founders Ministries released an updated translation into modern English of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith whose Chapter 6, Article 24 reads: "The Pope of Roman Catholicism cannot in any sense be head of the church; rather, he is the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, and the son of destruction, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming" (alluding to 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9). 4) All of the Protestant Reformers taught that the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome, was the Antichrist and this includes those whose ecclesial organizations have continued through to the present day. In the 16th century these were Martin Luther (Lutheranism), John Calvin (Reformed), Calvin's student John Knox (Presbyterianism), and in the 17th century free-lance Anglican clergyman John Wesley (Methodism). 5) John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book IV, Chapter 18, Paragraph 1, states, among other things, that: (1) the Pope is "the Roman Antichrist" and (2) the Mass, center of Catholic worship, "offers the greatest insult to Christ." 6) The 21st century Founders Ministries inherited this Reformed teaching from John Calvin through the 1634 Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith which, according to the latter's Chapter 6, Article 24, a papal succession will remain in perpetuity until the second coming of Jesus Christ when He will destroy the Antichrist in the person of the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome. 7) The above information is provided for Southern Baptists considering who they may vote as for as president of their convention in 2022. Quoting an advertising slogan from SYMS, a defunct off-price retail clothing store chain that filed for bankruptcy in 2011, "An educated consumer is our best customer."
I like Skye's questions, but one of the problems most of us Americans suffer from is DOING OUR OWN RESEARCH. If we go to primary sources and look at laws and events that actually happened, then we have a clearer view of where those voices we are listening to from various perspectives align with what actually happened. Too often we rely on media or, forgive me, people on programs like the Holy Post, to tell us what to think. As a high school Literature teacher, I want to bring to light the actual events in our history and bring out diverse views and voices, then encourage students to do their own research and make up their own minds, all the while keeping an open mind and heart, always willing to change one's viewpoint as he or she grows in knowledge, wisdom, and love.
I really like the idea of this, but if there is one thing that 2020 taught me (one of many things actually) it's to ask "when does doing your own research turn into conclusion shopping?" We witnessed a LOT of people do their own research and make up their own minds, but I don't think it ended up making people's minds and hearts more opened... especially when there was something at stake in their favor.
@@whitesentinix yes! As a teacher I try to teach kids how to identify reliable research based on the sites or sources they encounter. It's actually work, but I know that as an educator I must not "give a fish," but "teach how to fish." Finding sources on the right, the left, and in the middle, as well as actually reading things like court decisions and primary documents (i.e. The Declaration of Independence) is essential. Eisenhower's farewell address about the "uninformed citizenry" has grown worse in my opinion. The more important layer as a Christ-follower and His love of the marginalized and even the religious elite must be central to my response when injustice occurs.
@@bradthomas4071 I especially like international sources when looking at news - English is cheating, so much English language content available from basically every corner of the world (I speak Spanish as well, though I’m very rusty with it, but enough to get a sense of what spin news stories are taking).
@Brad Thomas define "reliable". As a child, I was raised in deep fundie (wholesale handmaids tale) culture whose definition of "reliable" was "aligned with our interpretation... needless to say, it ended up being a disaster. So... once again, I ask, define reliable
@@whitesentinix I understand on some measure your experience as I grew up in fundamentalist church that believed " they were the only ones going to heaven," so their sourcing simply was bias confirmation instead of open minded, open hearted searches for truth, etc. I would say reliable sources are primary. For example, the written decision by a judge on a case that impacts race or gender discrimination. When it comes to second or third hand sources one must research the leanings ideologically of those sources. Reading with an open mind, especially, those sources that do not align with your already presupposed positions is the practice of a healthy search for truth. Holding the tension of different voices and vistas is an important skill all the while working out the various dichotomies such voices establish. Finally, if the objective is to "be right" rather than search for truth, then that is a fundamental flaw in the heart or intention of searching. Truth also may be defined differently, as Kaitlyn (sp?) pointed out. I use these terms for broad categories of truth so my classes can have a common language: Naturalism - truth is scientific fact (materialism); Realism - truth is relative to the moment (pragmatism or relativism): Idealism - truth is constant, unchanging (absolute). These broad categories help my students figure out where they stand when they answer the question,"What is truth?" The Jesus follower would respond, don't you mean,"Who is truth?" 😁 One's view of truth is a large part of the issues this holy post discusses, and I think it has great bearing on how one researches sources, etc. as well.
Voddie Baucham is a black American pastor, who believes that there is no anti-black racism in America. But I wonder how many Jewish American pastors, who believe that there is no antisemitism in America? Oy! Hypocrites!
The uncomfortable parallel is the Jews in Nazi Germany who assumed it was all just talk and there was no real threat. Ignoring the obvious to try to be accepted by society is sadly nothing new.
He talks about respect coming from organizations that work to form people. I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I'd say it did form me and in a positive way. I believe what Jesus taught. It's also why I disrespect Christianity as a whole. Few if any try to live as required by Jesus and the Bible teach.
I don't know, man, I think we all try to live like Jesus and the Bible teach, even most non Christians. Are you really mad that we don't succeed in that endeavor? Because literally nobody does. Nobody. That doesn't make us hypocrites. It makes us human.
@@MrShadowy1 we try to live our interpretation of Jesus teachings. Even in my teens I could see his. The eldery in the church really seemed to try to live like a classical view of what trying to live by the teachings of Jesus, the middle aged where more worried about social position than the Bible's teachings, and the youth more so. I've seen the way interpretation of Scripture change to reflect the world and community not the community or people changing to reflect the Bible. People fail, yes. Long ago people knew it was their failure. To day when they fail it's just being human. They don't own the failure. It's already justified. Why do any who point out hypocrisy or failure mad? I will admit at times I feel disappointed due to the respect I have about the teaching oh Jesus. Mad though, no. Not at all. It's not my soul. I'm not trying to convenience God I'm anything I am not.
@@JohnThomas-ut3go so what specifically is wrong with doing our best to follow Jesus, even knowing that we will at times fail? Should we just give up on it? On Him? He never gives up on us.
@@MrShadowy1 You believe you are (as a whole because that's how you are speaking) doing your best? I believe the majority of Christians are doing their best to conform the religion and textual interpretation to their own behavior, beliefs, and practices. I do not believe the majority of Christians do their best to follow the teachings of Jesus. I also do not believe that they could identify the difference between those 2 perspectives. I've talked with many Christians that explain toe how hey are walking he "narrow path" or "road". They will say this after advocating policy that directly contradicts the teachings of Jesus. The reason so many believe they are on the narrow path while walking the broad road is they only look at the path just in front of their feet. They do not look up to see the world around them. They say they are doing their best while failing to follow the words and teachings of Jesus. The ask Jesus/God to forgive their sins, usually the trivial ones while unable to see where they fall short in the greatest measure. They pray to God to accept their humility in asking his forgiveness and in payment demand a new car, house, better job, more money, etc. More worldly items binding them to this place and distracting them from God. Are their exceptions? Of course. Jesus teaches their will be. Few, by Jesus own admission will find that narrow path.exceptions are not the rule. You assumed I was mad in my disapproval of modern Christian practice and believe. Their is no anger. If you see someone walking down the wrong path would you not tell them and just let them walk on? Even knowing the destination is a bad place? I do not claim to have found the small gate or narrow road, but I have looked up to see a smooth path unbroken by obstacles ahead of me and enough room that though millions walk this road I do not feel crowded in my journey. So I stopped and try to declare this is not the right road. Forget about human weakness and sinfulness. Forget about forgiveness. If these are what one focuses on in their faith the road is easy. Christ and the holy spirit are there to change you not justify you. Forgiving others, loving others, helping those in need, these things are hard. These require sacrifice of the self, the ego. Trying to force the world to comply with ones beliefs, justifying failures & sinful behavior does not require sacrifice but builds the self, the ego, up. Jesus, the son of God, not only sacrificed himself through death, but sacrificed himself, his ego, in life. He was a servant to the people, especially the sick and needy. He did not ask of all this level of commitment, bit he did ask us to follow his lived example.
@@JohnThomas-ut3go I don't disagree with you on any specific point. I think far too many people use eisegesis to make the Bible justify their beliefs instead of using exegesis to let the Bible change them. These are the people who would rather cross the street to tell a gay person they're sinful than stay on the same side to give a homeless person some food. It's sad and you should absolutely call it out when you see it. I guess that I do disagree with your saying we should forget about forgiveness, that was a little eyebrow raising. What I'm saying is that when you follow Jesus, you fail at times. Jesus said that even looking at a woman lustfully is committing adultery in your heart. That doesn't mean you stop following Jesus. He set the highest of standards to which we should all aspire, but we're not Him. What I'm saying is that that isn't a reason to stop following Jesus. We get better every day that we surrender our lives and our sinful desires to Him. I've been following Jesus for three years. My current understanding seems like it's only barely related to the one I had when I first prayed the sinner's prayer. My relationship with God and men has evolved. Jesus has worked a change in me, I believe making me more like him than I was at first. It's a work being accomplished by God, in my life. It's not about making the world comply with my beliefs. It's making my beliefs comply with God's. People get it twisted.
It is interesting to hear that black people need to unbundle with the Dems. In my view the dems are the less bad option, not the number one choice. It’s a two party system and splitting the black vote without shifting wyt Christians would make it worse, not better.
Tony Brown thought very similarly to you, and I agreed with him. However, too many black Republicans spend all their time joining white conservatives denigrating black people as well as Democrats.
And the part about the response to the crisis in ukraine, I actually thought there was going to be a mention of the African students who are currently trapped in many cities in Ukraine can't get out and the minimal coverage of that.
I read bits from the Vanguard (Nigeria) and it’s all over the news there. One of my habits with controversial stories is to take a little tour of global news to see how an issue is spun in various countries.
Revelation 20:7-9 states that the Gog and Magog battle takes place AFTER the 1,000 year millennial reign of the Messiah. With that being the case, why do some of these Dispensationalists think this battle will occur before the Millennium?
You can't say everyone's going to get a puppy! We're going to get nasty letters saying "where's my puppy? Why don't I have a puppy?" And are you prepared to deal with that? I don't think so! Just stop! Being! So!! Silly!!!
Oh my goodness, I just preached a sermon on Corrie Ten Boom and I was so afraid that it would encourage certain to join "the resistance" of their choosing 😳 But they skipped church that day since a woman was preaching 😂
@@jdtreharne Capitalism is generally a good thing, but it can encourage corruption and exploitation, it is like any human system: imperfect, and should be held up to scrutiny routinely
@@veggiet2009 capitalism doesn't rid the world of sin. No economic system does. But capitalism allows people to be free which makes it much more difficult to exploit people because they can disassociate if they need to.
Kyle Rittenhouse at 17 went to another state with a gun he should not have had to protect property that was not his own killed 2 people and injured another and was let off on self defense Trayvon Martin at 17 who was coming home minding his own business was approached by George Zimmerman who thought he was up to no good. Report-ably a fight ensued and Travon was killed. George Zimmerman got off on the stand your ground law. One boy who was minding is own business was killed and vilified. The stand your ground law should have applied to him and not Zimmerman. Another boy who was looking for trouble killed others and was lauded. Please help me make sense of the justice system in the United States. It seems the law only applies if your a certain color. I’m not saying white people have it easy. When your poor no matter what color you are you are screwed in the eyes of the law.
@Alex Carlson Hi...I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you calling me a liar for my opinion? The jury found him innocent. I think Kyle should have gotten jail time.
It’s really interesting. The three hosts on here talk about hearing from a broad spectrum of people to seek truth, but refuse to bring on black people who push back on their viewpoints. Makes one wonder if they are into truth at all.
They do read and listen to those viewpoints, though, as the discussion makes evident. Do you think they’re misrepresenting the views of those that disagree with them in some specific or tangible way? Obviously they disagree so they’re not going to sugarcoat them, but are they factually wrong about those views?
Antisemitism is the biggest problem in the Jewish community, and Anti-black racism is the biggest problem in the black community. Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder [Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17; Romans 7:5-13], and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment [Exodus 21:23; Deuteronomy 19:21; Deuteronomy 27:26].’ 22 But I say to you [Hebrews 7:11-12; Hebrews 8] that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ [Lit., in Aram., Empty head] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge [Ecclesiastes 5:8; Isaiah 55:8-9], the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny." He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Knowing who so-called Black people are according to the Bible and history, I would say true anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism are one in the same. The anti-Black racism that takes place within the so-called Black community was prophesied about in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 32:25.
Can you help me understand what Jemar Tisby meant when he twice said, "then THEY killed _____" in his article? Who is the they he is referring to? Trayvon was killed by a singular man George Zimmerman. Michael Brown was killed by a singular man Darren Wilson. There is no they there, yet Jemar seems to imply to a plural as to who killed both of these men. This is not an accident. This is intentional word choice in an article specifically talking about his brothers and sisters in Christ. What is he implying? Does this concern anyone other than me? Secondly, Jemar seems to give little to no thought to the fact that BLM has a strong anti-Christian element to the movement and came about at the same time that social media was burgeoning. Anyone who has been alive for the last 10 years knows without a shadow of a doubt that the business model of social media platforms is isolation and division. Could it at all be possible that Jemar's feelings towards his own brothers and sisters in Christ may have been impacted by accusatory voices who have no intention on building up the Body of Christ (Revelation 12:10)?
Don’t tell anyone, but there are millions of evangelicals in Brazil who consistently vote for socialist candidates and policies. Rampant poverty and many other social ills make the current system unsustainable.
Great episode as always. One gripe: the description of the Travon Martin case was lacking. Zimmerman claimed regular self defense not stand your ground. He claimed he was on the ground getting his head smashed into the sidewalk and the jury agreed that the evidence supported that.
If one person reads this and is encouraged to believe God's truth rather than this podcast full of man's wisdom, darkness and deception, then it's worth it. Our problem is simple: the sin of every single human being separates us from God the Father (and by extension, each other). The solution is simple: Christ is the Savior. The vast majority of the lost and the vast majority of so called "Christians" reject these two simple truths because most "Christians" believe that works + faith = Salvation. (52% of PROTESTANTS believe this in a 2019 Barna survey - along with 80% of Catholics, if you are interested.) Somehow a once Spirit-filled Protestant church has become a religious Catholic country club, along with all works-based false religions. Filled with poor souls who try to keep the law to earn salvation. It only leads to more condemnation. So #1, sin is our problem, the Gospel is our solution. Salvation is by Faith alone, in Jesus alone, for the glory of God alone. It's not about us - this whole world and the life we live is about God's glory. It's about Him, not us. So right off the bat, the "Christians" you all love to bash are in reality simply unsaved religious people. It's not a "White Christian" or White Church problem - it's a lost person problem. Non-regenerate religious people who still love their sin, love to "do nothing" as you all put it, love to feel superior to others, "oppress" others, bully others - WHY? BECAUSE THEY ARE LOST SINNERS. Sin is the problem. Any other discussion can only address symptoms, not the root issue. We are dead stinking rotting corpses who sin until the life of Christ somehow regenerates us through faith in Jesus and his work ALONE. So in truth, White, Black and Christians of any ethnicity don't have to pursue any kind of "reconciliation" because we already have unity of the Spirit. The world's lie is that "unity" needs to be ethnic - no we are spiritual beings first, not ethnic. The melanin in our skin is not eternal. Men and women's souls are eternal. So Unity as Christ defined it is spiritual and it was already achieved when the Spirit was sent to indwell ALL believers. We are one Church. We are one Body of Christ. What you are doing is rejecting Christ's reconciliation which is "DONE", achieved, "It is finished", and you accept man's definition of reconciliation, which never ends, is never achieved, and is actually impossible. It is as impossible as the men who built the Tower of Babel to try to "reach heaven". Attempting to build a utopia on earth is man's constant attempt to reject God and make man, god. This world is passing. James 4:4 "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." You are more afraid of the world calling you "unloving", than Christ saying "Depart from me I never knew you." Why would Jesus say that? He will say that to people who loved the world more than they loved God. If you love people more than God, you are actually not loving people because you will never lead them TO GOD because they don not WANT to be led to God. If you give them what they want, you are giving them eternal death. You might give them earthly reparations, but if they were spiritually alive, they would not need reparations or reconciliation because they have all RICHES in CHRIST and reconciled to God and part of God's Family, the Church. Don't you want the lost to really have unity with you, in Christ? P.S. We love Voddie because we love every single human who loves Jesus and who's Spiritual identify is their real identity. We are all citizens of heaven, followers of Christ, part of Christ's Church. That is our "tribe" to use your beloved word. Not my political party. Not any denomination. No other identification except, "Follower of Jesus". That's why we love Voddie and any other brother or sister who's #1 allegiance is to Christ. Do people have evil motives and want to wield social and political power from left and the right? All day long, yes you all have correctly identified the problem: its not systemic racism. It's systemic SIN. Luckily, you all know the remedy to our sin problem, Jesus, and I trust you LOVE sharing the good news don't you? Or.....are you more concerned about telling the world what it wants to hear? You can't love the world (by their definition) and also love God (by His definition). Choose you this day who you will serve, friends. Me and Voddie choose Christ.
People don't appreciate how much effort racists put into defending their position and finding people who will validate their perspective. It's not an issue of logic or lack of study. Confederates didn't just fail to come across a good argument against slavery. There was inherent rebellion against God and they paid the price. Voddie Baucham doesn't exist to be a fool until himself, but to reveal the fools who listen to him. Frederick Douglass talks about black people he ran into during the days of slavery who would preach pro slavery nonsense. There was a time when black people would allow themselves to be paid to put their heads into a target for people to throw baseballs at. If you think it's okay to throw a baseball at someone's head because they offer their head, there is something seriously morally broken in your soul. Voddie Baucham is a test to see who is in rebellion against God and who has the brain to recognize God has no agreement with him.
I think Skye has a point with his systemic categories idea, but I think it may be more shaped by authoritarian rather than systemic approaches. The reason I make that distinction is that his examples, abortion, school boards, etc are movements not to bring about systemic change through democratic policy change but through political minority methods like courts, law changes restricting free speech, etc. I think that Skye point that there are systemic realities is true to some extent, but they are still trying to make changes that restrict individual access, not to alleviate the need for the systemic reality. (ie restrict access to abortion not reduce the need for abortion.)
@@akiram6609 that’s not true, not according to the Liberal Democratic BLM Progressive Movement. They say white people need to be silent and let Black voices be heard. In fact in this video they reference an article in which the author says “white Evangelicals wanted Black faces but not black voices” and essentially this podcast continues that same theme. They don’t have black voices just 4 white people trying to virtue signal and say “I’m not like those white people “. If they were truly concerned they would give up their platform immediately to those who have been oppressed and marginalized for years. Do it now !!!!
@@NoahFred29 Who cares what the Liberal Democratic BLM Progressive Movement says? Everyone should be talking about and against racism. Anyone can be a racist, regardless of race, gender, class or educational status.
@@NoahFred29 If you've followed the Holy Post you'll see they have many guests on like you suggest. Esau McCauley, Derwin Gray, Jemar Tisby just to name a few. I've appreciated this podcast giving space to these voices that I wasn't previously familiar with.
@@davidvikes80 have they really given enough space to these people - aka - Black People. Really ? Go through their videos how many black people are their ? Why not have a black host ? I think Phil is apart of the problem not the solution. It’s evident these white people don’t want to give up their power.
I am REALLY glad you did not keep your opinions to yourself Phil. More people need to speak the truth in love. When the SBC further defends its very extreme political ties and absurd anti-social justice obsessions, it confirms to us how far they have moved from biblical truth. (In case the power issues, abuse cover ups and dominance over women aren't discerning red flags enough . . .)
Not really agreeing entirely about Voddie but the comments against you Phil are just sad 😔 and horrible! Why I guess I would be considered a conservative moderate which you are as well. Now Treyvon, not sure why this was brought up as an example. The guy that he was in a fight with was strongly of Peruvian background. Being a Uber driver sometime back, I do agree we need to address the Latin and African American divide as well. Been told twice where African Americans when Ubering that they felt more prejudices from Latin Americans than those white. Also, in being one of more Eastern European background I am not sure why are all the whites from various backgrounds are being thrown into the WASP nest in these discussions. That's is part of the problem in these discussions. Also Darwinist evolution needs to be addressed along with this discussion that is partly why racism started to develop in the Northern states and colleges in the early 20th century. I never ever hear anything about that history and it is documented. Addressing systemic problems would need to included Darwinist evolution in the structures. Again not hearing anything about this.
I worked at a factory with southern white evangelical men for 20+ years, the election of Obama was a huge shock, towards the end of his second term I would hear comments almost daily wishing that Obama would be shot. One guy told me that he didn't think that Obama had actually been elected either time, this was before trump was elected.
I'd like to hear you talk more about the rural/urban American divide and how that relates to our racial perspectives (and our political polarization as well). The African American experience can be very different depending on whether you grow up in a predominately white rural community, a black rural community, or a diverse urban community. The rural/urban divide is actually something occurring all over the world (for example, it was the primary split re:Brexit). That said, perspectives like Candace and Jemar can both accurately reflect the African American experience.
Candace O is a paid hack who spreads misinformation about American history and medical information. Her views are repugnant to most Black people because she also does not believe in any systematic problem in the U.S. The day after George Floyd was murdered she released a video that was one of the worst things I have ever seen. She revealed his criminal history and that gave voice to many whyte people to say the quiet part out loud.
@@Justanotherconsumer I completely agree. As they said in the podcast, choosing a perspective that aligns with yours and pretending it represents the majority and is the most accurate can be ignorant.
I'd like to get the reading list for Kaitlyn's Christianity and Capitalism class. Also, I think we should stop being afraid of being labeled Marxist by people who have no idea what Marxism even is - when someone lobs the M word around, ask them to define what Marxism is. I guarantee that 90+% of the time they have no idea what it is, they're only parroting some right-wing media talking points.
There’s a framework discussed in DiAngelo’s White Fragility where she talks about what really sounds like cultural conditioning or brainwashing to absolutely not talk about certain topics. The “don’t say gay” bill sounds exactly the same, and from the discussion here it sounds like the same applies to any discussion of economic theory (do not question capitalism). I’m a bleeding heart liberal completely unafraid to discuss those topics, but there are others where I reflexively get super-defensive (e.g. the challenge to democracy and the fears of the American founders).
Pat Robinson, my opinion, if he takes another step in that direction, he looks like a traitor. He is trying to bring about an end time where he is aligned with the wicked people of the Earth apparently. Talk about a falling away... That is sad and misguided. Phil keep fighting the good fight brother.
The Holy Post talking about confirmation bias is rich. They're saying the right things but not modeling it. Why not have voddie on to give his views? Expose your audience to the many ideas and perspectives you preach about, or else your hypocritical
Don’t have to give him a platform, especially when as far as they can tell he’s dealing with Alternative Facts. Are they misrepresenting his views, or accurately stating them and disagreeing with them?
@@Justanotherconsumer He's dealing with alternative facts? This is the church, we talk to each other not about each other behind each other's backs. So their perspective is without error? How is only hearing one side Christ like? Or "middle way" bonus question, why is the middle way always just punching right for 20 minutes and occasionally flicking at the left to look nuetral
You see, he's not a good candidate because Phil disagrees with his politics. If the church is going to reconcile it has to be around someone Phil agrees with.
@@Justanotherconsumer reconciliation has already taken place on the cross. We as a people under the kingdom of God must realize this. This is one thing Voddie Baucham has said about our race relations here in America, and I agree with him. The Holy Post (HP) has a tendency to look at the Gospel at times through a partisan or worldly lens, aligning what is true of their reality and their perspective to God's word. I do the same thing. Instead of letting our political ideologies dictate who ought to lead a congregation, we ought to allow the Holy Spirit guide who would lead us. Additionally, I am not advocating for someone like Voddie Baucham to be president of the SBC (he probably would not take the position), and I am not advocating for the SBC. In my opinion smaller congregations, following the structure of the early church, ought to be the majority of America, not the SBC. The HP is getting mixed up in the partisan debacles when it ought to be centered around God. And if God appointed Voddie Baucham as the president of the SBC (a man made organization I would argue) for His works within the church, then we ought to follow His will.
I am not interested in racial reconciliation, more interested in what the bible calls repentance. Each man has to give an account for his own life. In my opinion "Caucasian people don't repent and won't repent"
Skye's comment about whites social attitudes towards Blacks changing after the election of Barack Obama was spot on. We discuss that reality in my circles but, this is the first time I've heard it mentioned in a non-ethnic environment.
Have you taken a look at concerns raised about police and the legal system in general? The persistence of the effects of redlining? Studies showing that resume elements associated with “blackness” for lack of a better word (name, attendance at HBCU’s,etc…) lead to lower hiring rates? Speaking of HBCU’s, terrorism against them is in the news again. School choice is historically a racist talking point, the ability to send children to so-called “Segregation academies” to avoid racially integrated public schools after Brown v. Board actually started being enforced. That term has a lot of baggage, and claiming that the lack of it is racist is… difficult.
You guys do the same thing you accuse people who support Voddie of doing. You align yourselves with the Jemar Tisbys without listening from the likes of Voddie. Any black person who doesn’t hold your position will not qualify them to be the right person to speak on behalf of other black people.
The argument they’re making is that they have read what’s been said, and it’s not accurate. The facts matter. As they discussed, just because a voice comes from a disadvantaged community doesn’t automatically mean anything. Is there still systemic racism in America? That’s a question of fact, and if someone has their facts wrong their identity doesn’t make their argument right.
I hate to sound callous, but the problems of so-called Black people have been brought on by our disobedience to the Torah. The fatherlessness of the so-called Black community was a curse prophesied in Deuteronomy 28:54. Verse 46 of that same chapter identifies who we really are and what we can expect for our continued disobedience. Zechariah 11:5 events such as the murders of Travon Martin, Michael Brown, and many others have helped led me to the truth and recognition for the need as a so-called Black person to return to the Torah that YAHOSHUA (Jesus) first gave my ancestors back in the spring of 1446 BC.
No. Unless you can resolve Noah's curse of Ham as utterly false, you have no inkling of a hope to understand the living hell endured by my ancestral fathers. There are no portions of the Bible that even allude to all the hell that fell upon my ancestral fathers who this world decried as "Negro." And, with that being a reality, given the inferences to be drawn from what you espouse and therefore preach. You should stay out of our community, our churches, away from our families and our children with your ignorant teachings. You can preach to any other community of people. You can lead any organizations that are predominantly of any other ethnic of people, just not black folk. We've had enough with the teachings of hell and damnation. What we need now is truth. Of which, if you cannot resolve Noah's curse of Ham as a teaching that is utterly false, you harbor, export, and proclaim nothing but lies and superstition. And for this church, it is not Noah's curse of Canaan (Genesis 9:18-29). This church, its leaders, teachers, sages, and apologists know nothing about Noah's curse of Canaan (Genesis 9:18-29). Noah's curse of Canaan is, without question, true as there are prophetic ends, of which we are presently dealing with at this hour. Even more so, unless you can give me a god that is without sin, in that he does not rely on incest to propagate mankind as the gods of Judaism, Islam, and Pauline Christianity do. I can say with all surety that you know nothing about what the Bible actually teaches. You are the womb of darkness, of which we black folk have had our fill. Now it is time for us to seek the light that we enter what is the Light.
@@notofthischurch2822 I never mentioned anything about Ham and his so-called curse because it has never applied to so-called Black American people who are descended from the slave trade. Please, look into the reason why I referenced Deuteronomy 28. It has nothing to do with any Hamite.
Everyone runs in different circles but the black Christians I know I don't think would agree with Vodie on a lot of things. The Vodie supporters I know are all white. Those same folks have suggested I follow Candace Owens and Herschel Walker. Take that for what its worth.
@@bman11714 Barna has actually done some really good research here. Check out some of David Kinnanen (sp)'s work. I think there's a podcast with him and Carey Niehouf where he breaks downs attitudes towards race of Black, White and Hispanic Christians. Really fascinating stuff.
I've found it quite interesting that when issues of race and justice have come up, at least over the past five years or so, among many of my white evangelical friends, the first person they mention is Voddie Baucham. When I mention others like John Perkins, Thabiti Anyabwile, David Bailey, Jemar Tisby, et al, they are unfamiliar and very disinterested in doing any real work or reading to explore the complex issues of racial justice. This is the problem, too many want simple answers to complex issues. Also, there is a particular dominate epistemological orientation that is not open to any other source for truth, such as history, social data, and life experiences of Black folks. There is a very strong confirmation bias happening with white evangelicals' following of Baucham. Also, his rather forceful manner of communicating makes it seem like he has more "truth," because it makes him look more of authoritative than others. Finally, I have recently found myself agreeing with some of my friends that there is something taht comes before reconciliation...reckoning, which means dealing honestly with the issues that have caused the harm, injury, division, etc., even if those issues have historical origins.
Baucham is one of many.
I wish I could give this a cheer instead of just thumbs up
@Alex Carlson I always get a little nervous when people cite Romans 1 because I get the feeling they haven’t read Romans 2 and don’t understand that Paul was potentially even mocking the Uptight Citizens Brigade.
The issue of racial justice is mostly one of repentance - recognizing that wrong was done, and continues to be done, because of racial issues.
The Floyd case is illustrative - was what was done to Floyd wrong?
Many can’t even see that even after the conviction of his murderers.
I didn't know really anything about Voddie or Jemar before this but I read essays by each of them on the Michael Brown case in Ferguson and Voddie is clearly correct. Michael Brown is the only person to blame for his death.
@Scott Johnson you guys throw the voddie card like you are playing uno! Maybe listen to other voices... Or maybe wonder why he is propped up so often.
The racial reconciliation movement in the church is little more than tokens. It made room for our faces, but not our voices.
No one's stopping you, but if your voice is unbiblical then by all means you'll get the equal treatment of a rebuke
Your community is in shambles because there is a 74% out of wedlock birth rate. Direct line to poverty and dysfunction but that’s not a conversation you guys are willing to have. Zero white people are making your men leave your women and children.
I’m not gonna stand here and be gaslit by you guys lol
@@venomfangnext If white evangelicals don’t want to talk about race reconciliation in the church…..just say that! No need to diminish troubling race relations in the church as unbiblical when the Bible is clear about it.
As a black person walking in mostly white spaces I would have to agree they like having me there to add color. But I must assimilate. I am often tokenized. And if I vary from the conformist doctrine in support of my black brothers and sisters I'm often quickly silenced with firm opposition. To be honest it's wearing on me and my family. My mother and her family were often the only black family serving in predominantly white churches her her life. And even to her it feels worse today than when her parents were serving in the 60s and 70s.
That is sad to hear. I wish our churches would be different :(
On a different level, I had a similar experience as a francophone in an anglophone church; cultural and linguistic assimilation was assumed. Yet they continued to denigrate and mock francophones sometimes forgetting I was there. Personally I assimilated, yet I can say that I was never truly welcomed and accepted.
I know the feeling. I've experienced the same throughout my life. A few years ago, I made the decision to leave predominantly white church settings that would not speak the truth.
You know what causes that tokenization? The Left keeping the race thing going and affirmative actionesque and equity policies
@@bman11714 I agree and partially disagree. Tokenization is used more on the left but is also used on the right. To me, the solutions are to become independent from a system that only seeks to use people, create our own systems, and partner only with others who share common interests and goals.
@@bman11714 the alternative, though, is pure segregation.
The left’s solution of tokenism might be a bridge to fixing the problem, but it’s definitely not fixing the problem itself.
Voddie Bauchman and others need to dissect the issue of mass incarceration when discussing black fatherless. Blacks are arrested at far higher rates and given harsher sentences. Remember the "War on Drugs?"
And The Stop and frisk policy. Here is a video of what is going on behind the Breonna Taylor case that no one talks about
ua-cam.com/video/dbn_r4lzmM8/v-deo.html
We (blanket statement intended) are tired of trying to convince the larger white community that our experiences are not just real but that we actually know our lived experience better than you. Proximity is not brotherhood. One sided assimilation is not brotherhood. I truly enjoy this podcast bc it keeps me from believing we are completely alone. Once we reach that state of awareness...no one wins
Holy Post could benefit from having a black panelist on a more consistent basis, especially when addressing racial issues. I do feel that whites tend to identify more strongly with conservative Republicanism to the exclusion of even biblical values.
Facts.
@@ConnorMarc also, if they would stop hiding behind evangelicals or conservative evangelicals and just say white people or white christians. Cut through the bull and get to the issue.
@@dave-giveusfree-evans1068 Basically.
Not a single lie told here. I've often wondered how a lot of their episodes could be enhanced by having a regular non-White panelist.
@@KeithBerry I believe that Skye is non-white or at least mixed.
Just had a really sad moment. I wanted to share this episode and realized that I only have a handful of people who I can share this episode without starting a fight that would probably end ugly. 😢😢😢
Learn from the teachings here and be sure to DM it rather than post it publicly. :)
That's unfortunate
That’s exactly what I said. In some ways the ability to assess more information is not rendering results of a more informed public.
That was brought out in the Brooks interview.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
I need more of Comrade Katelyn lol!
In all seriousness she’s is a wonderful person and her dialogue is one of my favorite parts of the podcast! Evening though I would be considered a hippy dippy progressive, I find myself agreeing with most of what she says. That gives me hope that there is a space where Christians from different political perspectives can really vibe together.
You know what might be helpful? To have a Black Evangelical in the room when you're discussing issues of race with the panel. I know you quite often have very fine Black Evangelicals in the interview section, but, if you'll pardon the expression, segregating them off from the group discussion seems counterproductive to what you're trying to achieve by having these discussions in the first place.
As a Black Evangelical, I just completely disagreed with Skye's take that the election of Obama had anything to do with the reaction to Trayvon Martin's killing. I think the reaction would have been identical no matter who was president. I also reject his idea that Evangelicals simply ignored racial reconciliation, or considered it a "luxury." No, they actively opposed it. And continue to. I feel a Black Evangelical on the panel would have pushed back on some of these points.
Depending on which Black Evangelical they end up with. Clarence Thomas, Candace Owens, Ben Carson, Herschel Walker. That class of B.E. would gladly offer a distorted view. They are the types Malcolm warned of. Honey words in the house but no connection to those toiling in the fields.
Absolutely!!! I'm going to suggest the same thing!! However, I do think the election of Barack Obama was reactive for white Christians.
Would be great to hear a discussion like this between multiple Black pastors of different backgrounds - what they agree on, what they disagree on, etc…
For all on this thread, there's a podcast called the Jude 3 Project. It may offer some of what you are looking for.
@@complexmindsimpleman6642 ua-cam.com/video/JM9grP81UAQ/v-deo.html
As a black Christian woman, I don't agree with Voddie at all. I never hear them speak out against injustice when it comes to black people, but are quick to speak against anyone who does speak out against it. If you are quiet when injustice takes place against black people then should remain quiet when we speak out against it. That's what has turned me off with the White Evangelicals and others like them. Voddie and all of them were so quick to speak out against being woke, but are silent on racism.
Phil: “My wife is helping me to learn lessons” - that gave me a chuckle.
A lot of good advice:
We should listen to marginalized voices - Kaitlyn
Does this argument ask anything of me or does it merely confirm my beliefs - Good Question to ask ourselves Skye
You become what you love, so fall in love with the right things - David Brooks. Sounds a lot like: “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”
Great discussion and perspectives! As a Black man, I agree with much that you said. I was also amazed at the depth of all of your perspectives of what I would call Black issues even though obviously, none of you are Black.
I really like this channel and have shared it with many.
Tell your men to stop abandoning your women and children.
Screaming at me isn’t gonna help. Not here to be gaslit
@@noahandrews1486 Are you talking to me?
Im so happy this ep popped up on my algs again. David Brooks is one of my favorite journalists.
I love Phil's humility and approachable nature. Evangelicals don't want to hear what most Black people feel even when coming from a white guy. lol
Grace and Peace to you. I go to one of the only two predominantly black churches in Louisville, KY that are in the SBC. My pastor disagrees with Voddie.
However, given that the pastor of the other church graduated from The Master's Seminary, my guess is that he's a Voddie fan.
The SBC has purposefully attacked Critical Race Theory., because if Donald Trump. The church has voted to remove Black history from colleges. The church plays innocent, but is very diabolical.
I want a list of the books Kaitlyn is reading for her class! These issues with capitalism have been percolating in my brain recently, and I'd love some more resources to read.
Follow her on Instagram. She posts a lot about her reading.
Capitalism is the only moral economic system
@@jdtreharne Capitalism.. profits at ANY cost. The LOVE of money is the root of all sorts of evil like... Pollution, p@r#, profiteering politicians and clergyman, poison pharmaceuticals, prostitution, murder, usury, slavery, hyper inflated CEO salaries while the actual workers get peanuts, debt, out of control medical cost..on and on and on. I would bet the farm that if 90% the wealthy and powerful people in the USA were people of color, the folks who love crony predatory capitalism would not like it so much. I will never forget an old book I saw when visiting Boone plantation in South Carolina. "Prayer for Profit"
@@superherosoulsinger9041 I disagree with your assumptions on capitalism. But to start, do you *really* believe that capitalism *causes* prostitution? If you do I have some Bible verses for you.
Your discussion on the attitude toward helping black people through welfare does not take into account the real mindset of white supremacy. The attitude of white supremacy, that supported slavery and Jim Crow, assumes that black people EXIST to help/serve/be under white people. Like, that is our purpose. We are for making the lives of white people easier, just serving, slaving away, under our betters, etc. We are not to speak up, since that makes white people uncomfortable. We are not to ever receive anything that is forced (like through taxes) from white people. Of course, any white person who does choose to help individually or listen individually is automatically a SAINT for doing so in that mindset, too. But black people are FOR serving white people, so of course any forced/systemic helping of black people is wrong. Many white people still have that mindset. They don't want to help because we are not worthy of help because we are meant to be lower. Impoverished is seen as our natural, deserved state in this country. It is a shame.
If you ask 40 Americans what "Marxism" is you'll get at least 50 different answers.
I've always liked David Brooks. He's a reasonable guy and reflects what is good about conservative thought. Moderate voices get kicked to the curb these days. Thanks for bringing him on the program.
Kaitlin is so sweet, she told Phil he needs to go back to his Bible instead of telling him to go back to his veggies 😂
We all need more veggies in our lives, though.
Phil, please stay on Twitter and continue doing you! The exposure comes at a price, but YOU CAN DO IT!!!
He’s a progressive who compromises the Word…
@@Someone-qw5pj the pharisees said Jesus was a progressive who compromised the Word...
@@PhilTomson no they didn’t; and if you’re trying to equate what Phil is saying to what Jesus said/did, then I suggest you study or reread scriptures. Jesus was never a social reformer. Phil is enshrouding the word with critical theory teachings.
@@Someone-qw5pj How do you define "critical theory teachings"?
Phil, you were right. I agree with you completely regarding the tweet.
There can be no reconciliation based on race because to "reconcile" means to "go back to a time when the relationship was good, a right relationship" ... Black and White America have NEVER had a good or right relationship in 400+ years. Race, by itself, is a social construct. So if White Americans are not willing to deal with the issues surrounding white supremacy and systematic racism there can be no point where we can come together. You cannot oppress me and call me sister at the same time. This is why White America's claim to want to "reconcile" is completely disingenuous. The work of social justice and "reconciliation" is both individual and collective. The Church is not called to be one or the other but both. Worship is individual but it is also collective because we worship in a community with others.
Also, the issue surrounding "fatherlessness" within the Black community is a myth. Black fathers are more involved in their children's lives than any other demographic (there is research to back this) in America. The myth was created around whether or not the mother and father were married. If they are not married, the woman is considered a single mother, even if the father lived in the home.
Mercy!!
They fail to conform to the social norms on marriage demanded…. with the assumption that the nuclear family is the only correct way to do it (even though it’s a fairly modern idea).
Race is a social construct
Proceeds to talk about things through the lense of race
@@venomfangnext I believe that the op was laying the foundation for how social constructs (ex:race) shape unhealthy ideologies and perceptions
@@venomfangnextrace is a social construct. Racism is a white supremacist ideology. Or in the case of DuBois, a religion. In the case of Trekel, an American pastime.
I'm so jealous of getting to take a class on Christianity and capitalism... that sounds incredibly fascinating
Only 36:09 into this episode and had to comment. First thank for hitting the subject of Dr. VB and other voices like his. As a white Pentecostal Latino from the the New England area, I feel like I have whiplash from those voices that sound so different from the Black Women who helped to shape my views.
Great Episode!!! Very important
Phil! Phil! Phil! Social Media Fast Please!!
Brooks makes a good point. I'm not exactly fond of old time religion, but the flaw in modern society in America is assuming that people are naturally good, and don't require external guidance. Anybody who has spent time with children realizes that isn't so.
You hit another bullseye. So good. Thanks for being a voice of truth and reason. So appreciated.
I’m sure you don’t expect to get former Christian listeners but my background is SBC seminary. I just have to say I am damn proud to have left it all behind. There is no bottom to the SBCs bad behavior and using a black pastor to reconcile who is at odds with 90% of the black church is par for the coarse. They know, they damn well know that they are being super racist with that behavior, it’s why they try to turn it around, it’s why they fight so hard. Good luck in your fight salvaging the church, oops I mean the Republican Party 👍
I am a VERY non religious black person who found this podcast recently and have began binging the episodes. So far, I am impressed and have enjoyed hearing from people who seem to actually represent Christian values.
Thank you for discussing controversial topics in a very constructive way, I am glad you're here.
We know the game… it’s transparent and very obvious to all of us with the discernment needed for the season. I think that when communicating with someone who you know is not aware or receptive of the truth you have to express, you have to ask yourself if your intention is to teach or to fight. Because either could occur and you should have a practical plan for both.
Phil is telling the truth. Now those who don’t agree will learn from what he said and “do the research” to determine if something more and substantial can be learned. Fact: Ahmaud Aubrey and Travon Martin are the same case- same circumstances.
We have a problem with white conservative Christians. Skye is right that the trigger is Pres. Obama but it’s a symptom of a deep, disturbing and multi-generational racial divide that was ALWAYS THERE.
If we can’t handle the truth and its complexity, we can’t root out Christian racism. Race is ubiquitous to the white conservative mindset.
They want a certain black personality. One who does not subscribe to the fact that this country has not addressed the race issue. “Look like a black person but not have a black voice” - that’s great Phil.
I’m glad to see y’all work this out. Thank you for trying and keeping it real Phil. This will take time and work.
Such a good episode
Kaitlyn - can you share some books/resources/sources you've found valuable concerning Christianity and Capitalism? I'd love to learn more if you could make a few recommendations. Ty!
Great job getting Brooks on the show. I've loved reading/hearing his views for years. I found Brooks in 2008 when my political science professor assigned PBS news hour for a project.
Again✅🏆 This episode (like so many others) express EXACTLY what is on my heart. You ALL bring so much wisdom and clarity. SOOOO GLAD I found your podcast as I needed to hear I was NOT alone. I truly appreciate your heart for TRUTH. Blessings!
Fatherlessness isn't the root of the problem in the black community. It is a symptom of the problem, which is the same problem that all communities have: sin. The solution to sin is the gospel, discipleship and service. Men who accept the gospel and are properly discipled and are served through love will generally be good fathers and avoid unplanned pregnancies and premarital sex. It is our responsibility as the church to make this happen.
Amen.
The root cause of much of that sin, though, is despair. Many do not trust that they will ever live lives worth living so they lose themselves in whatever meager pleasures they can find.
If they had hope that they would be able to provide for themselves and their children they wouldn’t be as desperate for short term gains, but their lack of faith in human systems is well justified when those systems have routinely failed them. White people living in poverty are justifiably angry at a system that has not delivered on promises, even though they have fought to preserve that system that was supposed to benefit them and failed or intentionally abused them. Most (not all) Black folks have no illusions that society as a whole is there to help them.
It’s easy to claim faith in easy times when there is no need for hope, but when times are hard, as they have been for some groups in the US for centuries, well, broad is the road as they say.
The root cause of that sin is a lack of hope. Faith, hope, and love, and the greatest is love, but hope (and faith) are also very important.
But part of that problem is that those men grew up without fathers and didn't know how to be fathers, because their own fathers were either killed by racists or put in jail unjustly by racists. That causes a cycle of children without fathers. Not to mention the on going unjust incarceration that is still going on where young black boys are put in jail for years for minor offenses where a white boy would only get a warning if anything at all.
@@genesisp3884 Where's the lie......
@@lark8356 the point is that the sin is not the lust, but the oppression on the community.
Still sin, just different people involved.
Absolutely loved this podcast!! I would say that this was the best one I have heard! I came from a more conservative perspective and you all have been helpful for me. I appreciate the thought and input that you all provide. I am relatively new, maybe listening to around 15 episodes to 20. It could be slightly more.
I've probably been deconstructing for about a year, regardless of the conversation on the last one saying not to deconstruct or not to say the term. I am re-examininf what I believe by going more to the Scriptures. Anyhow, everyone keep it up and you too Phil. The guy from the Skillet group was talking about you. I don't know what was said. Till the 500th episode.
Reconciliation without repentance of wrong does not work.
1. Acknowledgement & Repentance of America's wrong doing.
2. Behavioral/systemic change
3. Reconciliation in the hurt/wronged communities tearms.
Great show folks. Always appreciate the thoughtfulness. My own thought on the discussion about systemic reform in the Christian mind: My experience leads me to believe this is closely tied to the discipleship conversation last week. I used to lament to my favorite pastor that our church did discipleship as trivia. Once you could regurgitate the right theological truisms you had basically arrived. All that was needed was time for those truisms to infect all of your life. I compare it to a medical school that only taught medicine by asking students to memorize a list of the correct answers to the tests the curriculum called for. Just like that system would churn out bad physicians, trivia discipleship seems to churn out people who don't know how and are terrified to question and evaluate their truisms. I had a discussion with my former adult ministries pastor and pointing out that his opposition to abortion involved a systemic remedy was met with genuine shock on his part.
1) According to Voddie Baucham's sermon of April 6, 2014 The Providence of God and the People of Promise, he is a self-proclaimed "fire-breathing, TULIP believing, five-point Calvinist."
2) His Wikipedia entry states that he "is Reformed in his theology, and subscribes to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith," as well as "a board member of Founders Ministries" which is an association of Calvinists unofficially affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.
3) Recently the Founders Ministries released an updated translation into modern English of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith whose Chapter 6, Article 24 reads: "The Pope of Roman Catholicism cannot in any sense be head of the church; rather, he is the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, and the son of destruction, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming" (alluding to 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9).
4) All of the Protestant Reformers taught that the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome, was the Antichrist and this includes those whose ecclesial organizations have continued through to the present day. In the 16th century these were Martin Luther (Lutheranism), John Calvin (Reformed), Calvin's student John Knox (Presbyterianism), and in the 17th century free-lance Anglican clergyman John Wesley (Methodism).
5) John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book IV, Chapter 18, Paragraph 1, states, among other things, that: (1) the Pope is "the Roman Antichrist" and (2) the Mass, center of Catholic worship, "offers the greatest insult to Christ."
6) The 21st century Founders Ministries inherited this Reformed teaching from John Calvin through the 1634 Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith which, according to the latter's Chapter 6, Article 24, a papal succession will remain in perpetuity until the second coming of Jesus Christ when He will destroy the Antichrist in the person of the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome.
7) The above information is provided for Southern Baptists considering who they may vote as for as president of their convention in 2022. Quoting an advertising slogan from SYMS, a defunct off-price retail clothing store chain that filed for bankruptcy in 2011, "An educated consumer is our best customer."
I like Skye's questions, but one of the problems most of us Americans suffer from is DOING OUR OWN RESEARCH. If we go to primary sources and look at laws and events that actually happened, then we have a clearer view of where those voices we are listening to from various perspectives align with what actually happened. Too often we rely on media or, forgive me, people on programs like the Holy Post, to tell us what to think. As a high school Literature teacher, I want to bring to light the actual events in our history and bring out diverse views and voices, then encourage students to do their own research and make up their own minds, all the while keeping an open mind and heart, always willing to change one's viewpoint as he or she grows in knowledge, wisdom, and love.
I really like the idea of this, but if there is one thing that 2020 taught me (one of many things actually) it's to ask "when does doing your own research turn into conclusion shopping?" We witnessed a LOT of people do their own research and make up their own minds, but I don't think it ended up making people's minds and hearts more opened... especially when there was something at stake in their favor.
@@whitesentinix yes! As a teacher I try to teach kids how to identify reliable research based on the sites or sources they encounter. It's actually work, but I know that as an educator I must not "give a fish," but "teach how to fish." Finding sources on the right, the left, and in the middle, as well as actually reading things like court decisions and primary documents (i.e. The Declaration of Independence) is essential. Eisenhower's farewell address about the "uninformed citizenry" has grown worse in my opinion. The more important layer as a Christ-follower and His love of the marginalized and even the religious elite must be central to my response when injustice occurs.
@@bradthomas4071 I especially like international sources when looking at news - English is cheating, so much English language content available from basically every corner of the world (I speak Spanish as well, though I’m very rusty with it, but enough to get a sense of what spin news stories are taking).
@Brad Thomas define "reliable". As a child, I was raised in deep fundie (wholesale handmaids tale) culture whose definition of "reliable" was "aligned with our interpretation... needless to say, it ended up being a disaster. So... once again, I ask, define reliable
@@whitesentinix I understand on some measure your experience as I grew up in fundamentalist church that believed " they were the only ones going to heaven," so their sourcing simply was bias confirmation instead of open minded, open hearted searches for truth, etc. I would say reliable sources are primary. For example, the written decision by a judge on a case that impacts race or gender discrimination. When it comes to second or third hand sources one must research the leanings ideologically of those sources. Reading with an open mind, especially, those sources that do not align with your already presupposed positions is the practice of a healthy search for truth. Holding the tension of different voices and vistas is an important skill all the while working out the various dichotomies such voices establish. Finally, if the objective is to "be right" rather than search for truth, then that is a fundamental flaw in the heart or intention of searching. Truth also may be defined differently, as Kaitlyn (sp?) pointed out. I use these terms for broad categories of truth so my classes can have a common language: Naturalism - truth is scientific fact (materialism); Realism - truth is relative to the moment (pragmatism or relativism): Idealism - truth is constant, unchanging (absolute). These broad categories help my students figure out where they stand when they answer the question,"What is truth?" The Jesus follower would respond, don't you mean,"Who is truth?" 😁 One's view of truth is a large part of the issues this holy post discusses, and I think it has great bearing on how one researches sources, etc. as well.
For the 500th episode, did Phil say that everybody gets a water buffalo?
Voddie Baucham is a black American pastor, who believes that there is no anti-black racism in America.
But I wonder how many Jewish American pastors, who believe that there is no antisemitism in America? Oy!
Hypocrites!
The uncomfortable parallel is the Jews in Nazi Germany who assumed it was all just talk and there was no real threat.
Ignoring the obvious to try to be accepted by society is sadly nothing new.
He talks about respect coming from organizations that work to form people. I grew up in a Pentecostal church. I'd say it did form me and in a positive way. I believe what Jesus taught. It's also why I disrespect Christianity as a whole. Few if any try to live as required by Jesus and the Bible teach.
I don't know, man, I think we all try to live like Jesus and the Bible teach, even most non Christians. Are you really mad that we don't succeed in that endeavor? Because literally nobody does. Nobody. That doesn't make us hypocrites. It makes us human.
@@MrShadowy1 we try to live our interpretation of Jesus teachings. Even in my teens I could see his. The eldery in the church really seemed to try to live like a classical view of what trying to live by the teachings of Jesus, the middle aged where more worried about social position than the Bible's teachings, and the youth more so. I've seen the way interpretation of Scripture change to reflect the world and community not the community or people changing to reflect the Bible. People fail, yes. Long ago people knew it was their failure. To day when they fail it's just being human. They don't own the failure. It's already justified.
Why do any who point out hypocrisy or failure mad? I will admit at times I feel disappointed due to the respect I have about the teaching oh Jesus. Mad though, no. Not at all. It's not my soul. I'm not trying to convenience God I'm anything I am not.
@@JohnThomas-ut3go so what specifically is wrong with doing our best to follow Jesus, even knowing that we will at times fail? Should we just give up on it? On Him? He never gives up on us.
@@MrShadowy1 You believe you are (as a whole because that's how you are speaking) doing your best? I believe the majority of Christians are doing their best to conform the religion and textual interpretation to their own behavior, beliefs, and practices. I do not believe the majority of Christians do their best to follow the teachings of Jesus. I also do not believe that they could identify the difference between those 2 perspectives.
I've talked with many Christians that explain toe how hey are walking he "narrow path" or "road". They will say this after advocating policy that directly contradicts the teachings of Jesus. The reason so many believe they are on the narrow path while walking the broad road is they only look at the path just in front of their feet. They do not look up to see the world around them. They say they are doing their best while failing to follow the words and teachings of Jesus. The ask Jesus/God to forgive their sins, usually the trivial ones while unable to see where they fall short in the greatest measure. They pray to God to accept their humility in asking his forgiveness and in payment demand a new car, house, better job, more money, etc. More worldly items binding them to this place and distracting them from God.
Are their exceptions? Of course. Jesus teaches their will be. Few, by Jesus own admission will find that narrow path.exceptions are not the rule.
You assumed I was mad in my disapproval of modern Christian practice and believe. Their is no anger. If you see someone walking down the wrong path would you not tell them and just let them walk on? Even knowing the destination is a bad place? I do not claim to have found the small gate or narrow road, but I have looked up to see a smooth path unbroken by obstacles ahead of me and enough room that though millions walk this road I do not feel crowded in my journey. So I stopped and try to declare this is not the right road. Forget about human weakness and sinfulness. Forget about forgiveness. If these are what one focuses on in their faith the road is easy. Christ and the holy spirit are there to change you not justify you. Forgiving others, loving others, helping those in need, these things are hard. These require sacrifice of the self, the ego. Trying to force the world to comply with ones beliefs, justifying failures & sinful behavior does not require sacrifice but builds the self, the ego, up.
Jesus, the son of God, not only sacrificed himself through death, but sacrificed himself, his ego, in life. He was a servant to the people, especially the sick and needy. He did not ask of all this level of commitment, bit he did ask us to follow his lived example.
@@JohnThomas-ut3go I don't disagree with you on any specific point. I think far too many people use eisegesis to make the Bible justify their beliefs instead of using exegesis to let the Bible change them. These are the people who would rather cross the street to tell a gay person they're sinful than stay on the same side to give a homeless person some food. It's sad and you should absolutely call it out when you see it. I guess that I do disagree with your saying we should forget about forgiveness, that was a little eyebrow raising. What I'm saying is that when you follow Jesus, you fail at times. Jesus said that even looking at a woman lustfully is committing adultery in your heart. That doesn't mean you stop following Jesus. He set the highest of standards to which we should all aspire, but we're not Him. What I'm saying is that that isn't a reason to stop following Jesus. We get better every day that we surrender our lives and our sinful desires to Him.
I've been following Jesus for three years. My current understanding seems like it's only barely related to the one I had when I first prayed the sinner's prayer. My relationship with God and men has evolved. Jesus has worked a change in me, I believe making me more like him than I was at first. It's a work being accomplished by God, in my life.
It's not about making the world comply with my beliefs. It's making my beliefs comply with God's. People get it twisted.
White evangelical congregations tend to encourage ideological homogeny. Many Black evangelicals don't require the same level of group think.
What a way to start the morning ☀️👌
It is interesting to hear that black people need to unbundle with the Dems. In my view the dems are the less bad option, not the number one choice. It’s a two party system and splitting the black vote without shifting wyt Christians would make it worse, not better.
Agrees. That was a poor "both sides" from Skye. I don't like Dems and especially Joe Biden, but both sidesing this is ridiculous.
Tony Brown thought very similarly to you, and I agreed with him. However, too many black Republicans spend all their time joining white conservatives denigrating black people as well as Democrats.
Jesus is not republican .. it’s sad that evangelicals are worshiping the world vs Jesus
And the part about the response to the crisis in ukraine, I actually thought there was going to be a mention of the African students who are currently trapped in many cities in Ukraine can't get out and the minimal coverage of that.
I read bits from the Vanguard (Nigeria) and it’s all over the news there.
One of my habits with controversial stories is to take a little tour of global news to see how an issue is spun in various countries.
Revelation 20:7-9 states that the Gog and Magog battle takes place AFTER the 1,000 year millennial reign of the Messiah. With that being the case, why do some of these Dispensationalists think this battle will occur before the Millennium?
Grace and Peace to you. I'm a dispensationalist, and I agree with you.
You can't say everyone's going to get a puppy! We're going to get nasty letters saying "where's my puppy? Why don't I have a puppy?" And are you prepared to deal with that? I don't think so! Just stop! Being! So!! Silly!!!
Oh my goodness, I just preached a sermon on Corrie Ten Boom and I was so afraid that it would encourage certain to join "the resistance" of their choosing 😳 But they skipped church that day since a woman was preaching 😂
I want to hear Kaitlyn's thoughts on capitalism after her class, it should be a show topic
Capitalism is the only moral economic system
@@jdtreharne Capitalism is generally a good thing, but it can encourage corruption and exploitation, it is like any human system: imperfect, and should be held up to scrutiny routinely
@@veggiet2009 capitalism doesn't rid the world of sin. No economic system does. But capitalism allows people to be free which makes it much more difficult to exploit people because they can disassociate if they need to.
@@jdtreharne Yes, as I said it's generally a good thing, but it's a human system
Another mic drop: "We want Black Faces, not Black Voices!"
Kyle Rittenhouse at 17 went to another state with a gun he should not have had to protect property that was not his own killed 2 people and injured another and was let off on self defense
Trayvon Martin at 17 who was coming home minding his own business was approached by George Zimmerman who thought he was up to no good. Report-ably a fight ensued and Travon was killed. George Zimmerman got off on the stand your ground law.
One boy who was minding is own business was killed and vilified. The stand your ground law should have applied to him and not Zimmerman.
Another boy who was looking for trouble killed others and was lauded. Please help me make sense of the justice system in the United States. It seems the law only applies if your a certain color. I’m not saying white people have it easy. When your poor no matter what color you are you are screwed in the eyes of the law.
@Alex Carlson Hi...I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you calling me a liar for my opinion? The jury found him innocent. I think Kyle should have gotten jail time.
@Alex Carlson Why are you so triggered? What did he lie about?
@Alex Carlson is it “they” though?
A little bit of humility and checking for eye-logs would go a long way in the church these days.
It’s really interesting. The three hosts on here talk about hearing from a broad spectrum of people to seek truth, but refuse to bring on black people who push back on their viewpoints. Makes one wonder if they are into truth at all.
They do read and listen to those viewpoints, though, as the discussion makes evident.
Do you think they’re misrepresenting the views of those that disagree with them in some specific or tangible way? Obviously they disagree so they’re not going to sugarcoat them, but are they factually wrong about those views?
Antisemitism is the biggest problem in the Jewish community, and Anti-black racism is the biggest problem in the black community.
Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder [Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17; Romans 7:5-13], and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment [Exodus 21:23; Deuteronomy 19:21; Deuteronomy 27:26].’ 22 But I say to you [Hebrews 7:11-12; Hebrews 8] that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ [Lit., in Aram., Empty head] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge [Ecclesiastes 5:8; Isaiah 55:8-9], the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny."
He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Knowing who so-called Black people are according to the Bible and history, I would say true anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism are one in the same. The anti-Black racism that takes place within the so-called Black community was prophesied about in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 32:25.
Can you help me understand what Jemar Tisby meant when he twice said, "then THEY killed _____" in his article? Who is the they he is referring to? Trayvon was killed by a singular man George Zimmerman. Michael Brown was killed by a singular man Darren Wilson. There is no they there, yet Jemar seems to imply to a plural as to who killed both of these men. This is not an accident. This is intentional word choice in an article specifically talking about his brothers and sisters in Christ. What is he implying? Does this concern anyone other than me?
Secondly, Jemar seems to give little to no thought to the fact that BLM has a strong anti-Christian element to the movement and came about at the same time that social media was burgeoning. Anyone who has been alive for the last 10 years knows without a shadow of a doubt that the business model of social media platforms is isolation and division. Could it at all be possible that Jemar's feelings towards his own brothers and sisters in Christ may have been impacted by accusatory voices who have no intention on building up the Body of Christ (Revelation 12:10)?
Her points around 28:30 are very interesting
"Pro-Trump Intellectuals" < Three words that don't go together.
Common let us reason.... Thanks for posting.... John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Keep the car but I am going to want that free puppy.
Don’t tell anyone, but there are millions of evangelicals in Brazil who consistently vote for socialist candidates and policies. Rampant poverty and many other social ills make the current system unsustainable.
I’m not pro capitalism
Love all you guys for doing the hard work you are doing! God Bless…!❤️
4:28 but we want to see how it is interpreted that makes it exciting
Great episode as always. One gripe: the description of the Travon Martin case was lacking. Zimmerman claimed regular self defense not stand your ground. He claimed he was on the ground getting his head smashed into the sidewalk and the jury agreed that the evidence supported that.
What did we learn? Learn how Twitter works! And if you were born before the social media, just send a letter.
If one person reads this and is encouraged to believe God's truth rather than this podcast full of man's wisdom, darkness and deception, then it's worth it.
Our problem is simple: the sin of every single human being separates us from God the Father (and by extension, each other). The solution is simple: Christ is the Savior.
The vast majority of the lost and the vast majority of so called "Christians" reject these two simple truths because most "Christians" believe that works + faith = Salvation.
(52% of PROTESTANTS believe this in a 2019 Barna survey - along with 80% of Catholics, if you are interested.)
Somehow a once Spirit-filled Protestant church has become a religious Catholic country club, along with all works-based false religions.
Filled with poor souls who try to keep the law to earn salvation. It only leads to more condemnation. So #1, sin is our problem, the Gospel is our solution.
Salvation is by Faith alone, in Jesus alone, for the glory of God alone. It's not about us - this whole world and the life we live is about God's glory. It's about Him, not us.
So right off the bat, the "Christians" you all love to bash are in reality simply unsaved religious people. It's not a "White Christian" or White Church problem - it's a lost person problem.
Non-regenerate religious people who still love their sin, love to "do nothing" as you all put it, love to feel superior to others, "oppress" others, bully others - WHY? BECAUSE THEY ARE LOST SINNERS. Sin is the problem. Any other discussion can only address symptoms, not the root issue. We are dead stinking rotting corpses who sin until the life of Christ somehow regenerates us through faith in Jesus and his work ALONE.
So in truth, White, Black and Christians of any ethnicity don't have to pursue any kind of "reconciliation" because we already have unity of the Spirit. The world's lie is that "unity" needs to be ethnic - no we are spiritual beings first, not ethnic. The melanin in our skin is not eternal. Men and women's souls are eternal.
So Unity as Christ defined it is spiritual and it was already achieved when the Spirit was sent to indwell ALL believers. We are one Church. We are one Body of Christ. What you are doing is rejecting Christ's reconciliation which is "DONE", achieved, "It is finished", and you accept man's definition of reconciliation, which never ends, is never achieved, and is actually impossible. It is as impossible as the men who built the Tower of Babel to try to "reach heaven". Attempting to build a utopia on earth is man's constant attempt to reject God and make man, god. This world is passing.
James 4:4 "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
You are more afraid of the world calling you "unloving", than Christ saying "Depart from me I never knew you." Why would Jesus say that? He will say that to people who loved the world more than they loved God. If you love people more than God, you are actually not loving people because you will never lead them TO GOD because they don not WANT to be led to God. If you give them what they want, you are giving them eternal death. You might give them earthly reparations, but if they were spiritually alive, they would not need reparations or reconciliation because they have all RICHES in CHRIST and reconciled to God and part of God's Family, the Church. Don't you want the lost to really have unity with you, in Christ?
P.S. We love Voddie because we love every single human who loves Jesus and who's Spiritual identify is their real identity. We are all citizens of heaven, followers of Christ, part of Christ's Church. That is our "tribe" to use your beloved word. Not my political party. Not any denomination. No other identification except, "Follower of Jesus". That's why we love Voddie and any other brother or sister who's #1 allegiance is to Christ.
Do people have evil motives and want to wield social and political power from left and the right? All day long, yes you all have correctly identified the problem: its not systemic racism.
It's systemic SIN. Luckily, you all know the remedy to our sin problem, Jesus, and I trust you LOVE sharing the good news don't you? Or.....are you more concerned about telling the world what it wants to hear? You can't love the world (by their definition) and also love God (by His definition). Choose you this day who you will serve, friends. Me and Voddie choose Christ.
People don't appreciate how much effort racists put into defending their position and finding people who will validate their perspective. It's not an issue of logic or lack of study. Confederates didn't just fail to come across a good argument against slavery. There was inherent rebellion against God and they paid the price.
Voddie Baucham doesn't exist to be a fool until himself, but to reveal the fools who listen to him. Frederick Douglass talks about black people he ran into during the days of slavery who would preach pro slavery nonsense. There was a time when black people would allow themselves to be paid to put their heads into a target for people to throw baseballs at. If you think it's okay to throw a baseball at someone's head because they offer their head, there is something seriously morally broken in your soul.
Voddie Baucham is a test to see who is in rebellion against God and who has the brain to recognize God has no agreement with him.
When Phil did a TMBG reference, my head exploded! Thank you, Phil!
I think Skye has a point with his systemic categories idea, but I think it may be more shaped by authoritarian rather than systemic approaches. The reason I make that distinction is that his examples, abortion, school boards, etc are movements not to bring about systemic change through democratic policy change but through political minority methods like courts, law changes restricting free speech, etc.
I think that Skye point that there are systemic realities is true to some extent, but they are still trying to make changes that restrict individual access, not to alleviate the need for the systemic reality. (ie restrict access to abortion not reduce the need for abortion.)
I agree with Phil
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I still love you Phil! I completely understand what you are saying! Btw Candace OWENS would make a horrible PRES.
When will there be a live stream?
Like as the hart desireth the livesteam, so longeth my soul…” wait, no that’s not how the psalm goes!
4 white people taking about race - step down and give your platform to Black People NOW !!!!!
Anyone can talk about race.
@@akiram6609 that’s not true, not according to the Liberal Democratic BLM Progressive Movement. They say white people need to be silent and let Black voices be heard. In fact in this video they reference an article in which the author says “white Evangelicals wanted Black faces but not black voices” and essentially this podcast continues that same theme. They don’t have black voices just 4 white people trying to virtue signal and say “I’m not like those white people “. If they were truly concerned they would give up their platform immediately to those who have been oppressed and marginalized for years. Do it now !!!!
@@NoahFred29 Who cares what the Liberal Democratic BLM Progressive Movement says? Everyone should be talking about and against racism. Anyone can be a racist, regardless of race, gender, class or educational status.
@@NoahFred29 If you've followed the Holy Post you'll see they have many guests on like you suggest. Esau McCauley, Derwin Gray, Jemar Tisby just to name a few. I've appreciated this podcast giving space to these voices that I wasn't previously familiar with.
@@davidvikes80 have they really given enough space to these people - aka - Black People. Really ? Go through their videos how many black people are their ? Why not have a black host ? I think Phil is apart of the problem not the solution. It’s evident these white people don’t want to give up their power.
I am REALLY glad you did not keep your opinions to yourself Phil. More people need to speak the truth in love. When the SBC further defends its very extreme political ties and absurd anti-social justice obsessions, it confirms to us how far they have moved from biblical truth. (In case the power issues, abuse cover ups and dominance over women aren't discerning red flags enough . . .)
You should never have this guy on again talking about Black people, again.
Not really agreeing entirely about Voddie but the comments against you Phil are just sad 😔 and horrible! Why I guess I would be considered a conservative moderate which you are as well. Now Treyvon, not sure why this was brought up as an example. The guy that he was in a fight with was strongly of Peruvian background. Being a Uber driver sometime back, I do agree we need to address the Latin and African American divide as well. Been told twice where African Americans when Ubering that they felt more prejudices from Latin Americans than those white. Also, in being one of more Eastern European background I am not sure why are all the whites from various backgrounds are being thrown into the WASP nest in these discussions. That's is part of the problem in these discussions. Also Darwinist evolution needs to be addressed along with this discussion that is partly why racism started to develop in the Northern states and colleges in the early 20th century. I never ever hear anything about that history and it is documented. Addressing systemic problems would need to included Darwinist evolution in the structures. Again not hearing anything about this.
I worked at a factory with southern white evangelical men for 20+ years, the election of Obama was a huge shock, towards the end of his second term I would hear comments almost daily wishing that Obama would be shot. One guy told me that he didn't think that Obama had actually been elected either time, this was before trump was elected.
I'd like to hear you talk more about the rural/urban American divide and how that relates to our racial perspectives (and our political polarization as well). The African American experience can be very different depending on whether you grow up in a predominately white rural community, a black rural community, or a diverse urban community. The rural/urban divide is actually something occurring all over the world (for example, it was the primary split re:Brexit). That said, perspectives like Candace and Jemar can both accurately reflect the African American experience.
They reflect an experience, but it’s not a typical one.
That those atypical experiences get cherry picked for amplification should concern us.
Candace O is a paid hack who spreads misinformation about American history and medical information. Her views are repugnant to most Black people because she also does not believe in any systematic problem in the U.S.
The day after George Floyd was murdered she released a video that was one of the worst things I have ever seen.
She revealed his criminal history and that gave voice to many whyte people to say the quiet part out loud.
@@Justanotherconsumer I completely agree. As they said in the podcast, choosing a perspective that aligns with yours and pretending it represents the majority and is the most accurate can be ignorant.
Phil I agree you should have your wife read your tweets before you send your opinion.
I'd like to get the reading list for Kaitlyn's Christianity and Capitalism class. Also, I think we should stop being afraid of being labeled Marxist by people who have no idea what Marxism even is - when someone lobs the M word around, ask them to define what Marxism is. I guarantee that 90+% of the time they have no idea what it is, they're only parroting some right-wing media talking points.
There’s a framework discussed in DiAngelo’s White Fragility where she talks about what really sounds like cultural conditioning or brainwashing to absolutely not talk about certain topics.
The “don’t say gay” bill sounds exactly the same, and from the discussion here it sounds like the same applies to any discussion of economic theory (do not question capitalism).
I’m a bleeding heart liberal completely unafraid to discuss those topics, but there are others where I reflexively get super-defensive (e.g. the challenge to democracy and the fears of the American founders).
It me: Pretribulational, Premillennial Dispensationalist
Pat Robinson, my opinion, if he takes another step in that direction, he looks like a traitor. He is trying to bring about an end time where he is aligned with the wicked people of the Earth apparently. Talk about a falling away... That is sad and misguided.
Phil keep fighting the good fight brother.
The Holy Post talking about confirmation bias is rich. They're saying the right things but not modeling it. Why not have voddie on to give his views? Expose your audience to the many ideas and perspectives you preach about, or else your hypocritical
Don’t have to give him a platform, especially when as far as they can tell he’s dealing with Alternative Facts.
Are they misrepresenting his views, or accurately stating them and disagreeing with them?
@@Justanotherconsumer He's dealing with alternative facts? This is the church, we talk to each other not about each other behind each other's backs. So their perspective is without error? How is only hearing one side Christ like? Or "middle way" bonus question, why is the middle way always just punching right for 20 minutes and occasionally flicking at the left to look nuetral
So Voddie Baucham who is currently in Africa serving would not be a good candidate to bring about racial reconciliation?
That does not make sense.
he might bring about racial submission, but reconciliation involves a bit more.
You see, he's not a good candidate because Phil disagrees with his politics. If the church is going to reconcile it has to be around someone Phil agrees with.
@@jdtreharne there are reasons that Phil thinks that way, though. Are they wrong?
@@Justanotherconsumer Yes.
@@Justanotherconsumer reconciliation has already taken place on the cross. We as a people under the kingdom of God must realize this. This is one thing Voddie Baucham has said about our race relations here in America, and I agree with him.
The Holy Post (HP) has a tendency to look at the Gospel at times through a partisan or worldly lens, aligning what is true of their reality and their perspective to God's word. I do the same thing.
Instead of letting our political ideologies dictate who ought to lead a congregation, we ought to allow the Holy Spirit guide who would lead us.
Additionally, I am not advocating for someone like Voddie Baucham to be president of the SBC (he probably would not take the position), and I am not advocating for the SBC. In my opinion smaller congregations, following the structure of the early church, ought to be the majority of America, not the SBC. The HP is getting mixed up in the partisan debacles when it ought to be centered around God. And if God appointed Voddie Baucham as the president of the SBC (a man made organization I would argue) for His works within the church, then we ought to follow His will.
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I am not interested in racial reconciliation, more interested in what the bible calls repentance. Each man has to give an account for his own life. In my opinion "Caucasian people don't repent and won't repent"
Skye's comment about whites social attitudes towards Blacks changing after the election of Barack Obama was spot on.
We discuss that reality in my circles but, this is the first time I've heard it mentioned in a non-ethnic environment.
"black" christian here....keep it up voddie. the nerve of these people. leftist woke nonsense
49:05 ideology is that thing thats so natural you dont even notice it's there
Skye, what sinful systems are still in place that are racist? Other than the abortion system and lack of school choice?
Have you taken a look at concerns raised about police and the legal system in general?
The persistence of the effects of redlining?
Studies showing that resume elements associated with “blackness” for lack of a better word (name, attendance at HBCU’s,etc…) lead to lower hiring rates?
Speaking of HBCU’s, terrorism against them is in the news again.
School choice is historically a racist talking point, the ability to send children to so-called “Segregation academies” to avoid racially integrated public schools after Brown v. Board actually started being enforced. That term has a lot of baggage, and claiming that the lack of it is racist is… difficult.
You guys do the same thing you accuse people who support Voddie of doing. You align yourselves with the Jemar Tisbys without listening from the likes of Voddie. Any black person who doesn’t hold your position will not qualify them to be the right person to speak on behalf of other black people.
The argument they’re making is that they have read what’s been said, and it’s not accurate.
The facts matter. As they discussed, just because a voice comes from a disadvantaged community doesn’t automatically mean anything.
Is there still systemic racism in America?
That’s a question of fact, and if someone has their facts wrong their identity doesn’t make their argument right.
SKRM - Skye Kaitlyn Reconciliation Movement
I hate to sound callous, but the problems of so-called Black people have been brought on by our disobedience to the Torah. The fatherlessness of the so-called Black community was a curse prophesied in Deuteronomy 28:54. Verse 46 of that same chapter identifies who we really are and what we can expect for our continued disobedience. Zechariah 11:5 events such as the murders of Travon Martin, Michael Brown, and many others have helped led me to the truth and recognition for the need as a so-called Black person to return to the Torah that YAHOSHUA (Jesus) first gave my ancestors back in the spring of 1446 BC.
No. Unless you can resolve Noah's curse of Ham as utterly false, you have no inkling of a hope to understand the living hell endured by my ancestral fathers. There are no portions of the Bible that even allude to all the hell that fell upon my ancestral fathers who this world decried as "Negro." And, with that being a reality, given the inferences to be drawn from what you espouse and therefore preach. You should stay out of our community, our churches, away from our families and our children with your ignorant teachings. You can preach to any other community of people. You can lead any organizations that are predominantly of any other ethnic of people, just not black folk. We've had enough with the teachings of hell and damnation. What we need now is truth. Of which, if you cannot resolve Noah's curse of Ham as a teaching that is utterly false, you harbor, export, and proclaim nothing but lies and superstition.
And for this church, it is not Noah's curse of Canaan (Genesis 9:18-29). This church, its leaders, teachers, sages, and apologists know nothing about Noah's curse of Canaan (Genesis 9:18-29). Noah's curse of Canaan is, without question, true as there are prophetic ends, of which we are presently dealing with at this hour.
Even more so, unless you can give me a god that is without sin, in that he does not rely on incest to propagate mankind as the gods of Judaism, Islam, and Pauline Christianity do. I can say with all surety that you know nothing about what the Bible actually teaches. You are the womb of darkness, of which we black folk have had our fill. Now it is time for us to seek the light that we enter what is the Light.
@@notofthischurch2822 I never mentioned anything about Ham and his so-called curse because it has never applied to so-called Black American people who are descended from the slave trade. Please, look into the reason why I referenced Deuteronomy 28. It has nothing to do with any Hamite.
Take more history -- advanced classes
What part of history?
When it comes to American history one also has to be careful because of the influence of things like the Lost Cause myth.
Phil: Vodie isn’t aligned with “most” black Christians. Where do you get that from Phil? Have you talked to most black Christians?
I have. I'll vouch for the statement.
Everyone runs in different circles but the black Christians I know I don't think would agree with Vodie on a lot of things. The Vodie supporters I know are all white. Those same folks have suggested I follow Candace Owens and Herschel Walker. Take that for what its worth.
By polling numbers, he is correct.
@@DelicueMusic Polling you say?
@@bman11714 Barna has actually done some really good research here. Check out some of David Kinnanen (sp)'s work. I think there's a podcast with him and Carey Niehouf where he breaks downs attitudes towards race of Black, White and Hispanic Christians. Really fascinating stuff.