Essentially have you placed the 53 string in place at the nut which has sharpened all the open string notes, then you have dropped them all again to proper pitch. The overall tuning length of the string will be shorter, and the nut becomes a metal nut not bone or plastic . Of Course the guitar will be brighter. You have a metal nut interacting with the fretboard. Also you have standardised all the string heights passing the first fret maybe eliminating any effect of a poorly cut nut in terms of individual string heights which cause some to go 'sharp' when fretted. You do seem to have hit on something.
@@kristopherk5454 Would this be a benefit to just this particular guitar only / Was the first fret to nut distance incorrect and needing shortened or would this be the case for all guitars of this scale length ? I'd like to see this done on more guitars. This may be just one guitar or industry changing ?
Some guitars do have a nut that is too far from the first fret and as a result will never play in tune, but this is an example of “sweetening” the intonation of the guitar. I do think it would be nice to see if this works in more guitars, and does it actually work across the fretboard, not just the chords played in the video.
Ye Gods! I am by no means a musician, just a keen amateur spanker but I have heard that weird interval thing between D & G. The song Ziggy Stardust really shows it up. Years ago I read an article about how Bruce Welch of the Shadows almost packed up playing because he couldn’t even tune up. Some convinced him it was a classic case of the “Banjo G” string some Strats were prone to. The magic cure for him thankfully was another old hand said tune your G first, then D, then B, then A finishing off with low and high E’s. Simples!
I did this with my bass guitar using a plastic toothpick to get rid of a slight buzz it had. It worked but then I noticed that it stayed in tune better and sounded better. I kept it that way now for the past 20 years. It still sounds great.
Good on you on that Buzz Feitin thing. At the time, I thought EVERY guitar made, should have used that system. Thanks for your kindness, Steve. Well done.
This is a really great hack. It's simple and it does a couple of things at the same time, as you have described. It's my opinion that zero frets should be standard on any production instrument. There are so many factors to consider when working with the nut... it can get finicky. This solution is beautiful!
Hey, I really appreciate this. Equal tempered was a compromise that made everybody unhappy but it saves a lot of work. To be perfectly "in tune" the pitches have to be frequencies of simple ratios such as 3/2, 4/3, etc. because the harmonics of the vibrating strings follow those ratios. Sitars feature moveable frets for this reason, but it gets crazy. : The best solution I've ever heard of is in the piano, where the trios of strings are tuned so the center of the 3 is exactly on equal tempered pitch, then the ones on either side are tuned slightly sharp and slightly flat respectively. So when you hit a chord, the strings that are off ratio ring down pretty quick, but the ones that are on ratio re-energize each other.
I got my first Earvana nut almost 20 years ago. It really helps the guitar play more in tune - especially close to the nut. I bought some Solo Spacers that let you slide in a little insert to see if the idea would help a particular guitar. For 10-15 bucks you can try it.
This absolutely gets rid of that faint fret buzz on the low E, in my case at least, that 3 techs and myself could not find on my Starcaster. I'm late to the show, but here now. Subbed
I used Allen keys just the right thickness on 2 guitars . a 3/4 size acoustic and a classical that i wanted to brighten up . Worked like a charm . I 've been playing for almost 50 years. This could have saved me a lot of cash over the years.
I believe Eddie Van Halen detuned his B string slightly to make the major 3rd of an A chord and it's barre shapes, and then tuned the high E to a 4th from the B. That's why the triads in Running With The Devil sound so great. I notice in the live recordings that he never seems to play all six strings at once, which would show those to be off.
I tune the guitar to the song im playing. Mostly 3rd and 2nd need to be slightly flat depending on chords played Running With The Devil and White Wedding are good examples. EVH would slightly detune most of his strings not just the B and E, the G and even one of the low E, A and D's were off by a few cents. Tom Bukovac did a vid recomending just aviod playing the 3rd on the high E
My first fret is quite sharp.. decreasing as you go to higher frets. From the octave and up, becomes very flat. This cheap guitar needs the nut advanced, as the bridge adjusters are as close to the neck as they can go. Thanks for the way to test before modifications. Mahalo! 🐳🍻
@@bubblerings You're welcome! Good luck with your adjustments, and please make sure you use fresh strings that are fully stretched, otherwise you're chasing a ghost.
Where this really shines is when you play up-neck chords with open strings (I'm talking to you Alex Lifeson). This sharpens the open notes relative to the fretted notes (which go slightly sharp when they are pressed anyway), and brings the notes of the hybrid open/fretted chord into better tune with itself. I'm sure that's why he chose "And You and I" to demo it (the open D droning away is slightly sharper now)
Amazing little hack - I will try it soon! P.S. regarding possible intonation problems elsewhere: I once chatted with a folk guitarist whose guitar was hacked to sound even sweeter. I asked to try it and played my own stuff it sounded awful and asked him why. He replied that he had set his guitar up to sound sweet within the first five frets - "that's where I live", he said. 🙂
I'll definitely try this. Along the same lines, I have discovered that any drop tuning I do will sound better with the bass string tuned just a hair flat. I have a number of guitars, and it works on all of them.
Yes I also discovered this with many alt tunings. I've programmed my peterson tuner now to tune the 6th string down about 10 cents which seems like a lot but just sounds so much better.
Just try it. If it doesn't work, no harm done. It may work better on other guitars depending on the nut setup. Next time you do a string change, use a string offcut to see if it's worthwhile. Don't like it, remove it. Certainly easier to remove than installing a Zero fret wire.
"... The old man is weak but strength comes from him A smile full of youth, and a gleam in his eye His garden is green and seems overflowing And his dreams await in his rockin' chair sky ..."
Hi, I listened to all of your video and have now tried this tip on 3 previously troublesome guitars. However, I used a piece of an old bass guitar D string (0.60) as I didn't have a thick enough regular guitar string. It works the same. A fretted G on the low E string is now perfectly in tune...and everything else seems much better too. Not sure of the science but this tip does work. I have a Yamaha (APX 4-12A) 12 string electro-acoustic that was a tricky guitar to tune and play...after adding a false zero fret, it now plays in tune and actually feels much easier to play. I really can't understand why but it does work ... Thanks
I have one guitar that I somehow managed to intonate correctly after making a new nut and compensating saddle. It is now a great guitar to play and even my bandmate was impressed with it. No easy feat. I am going to try this with my other acoustic. With feedback of course.
If we assume the scale length is 25.5”, all the frets are equal tempered for 25.5”. But the actual scale length is shortened to approx 25.48”. You used a pitchfork to tune the A string (A440Hz I assume). Then used your ears to tune the rest of the strings. Therefore, you were likely using “just intonation” to tune up the guitar. So in essence, you are using a 25.5” scale length equal tempered fretboard layout, but with an actual scale length of approximately 25.48”, and tuned using just intonation. The likely result of this experiment is that your guitar sounds in sweetly in tune with itself using certain chord shapes in certain key signatures. This is great if you only play by yourself as a solo act, and only stick to certain keys and chord shapes. However, there is a HUGE tradeoff: 1) If you play alongside another guitarist, or a pianist, or any other chording instrument you’re going to have tuning problems matching with them. 2) If you start playing music/songs that take you into multiple keys, the tuning and temperament will start to produce out of tune chords. So if you play in a band with only guitar players, you’d have to get all the other guitars to be set up this way, and you’d have to stick to only certain keys to play all your music in. As soon as you add a keyboard player, you’re going to experience matching issues with the tuning, because the piano is equal tempered and for good reason. This is probably a great recording trick to make a specific recorded song sound really good, but it’s very impractical for playing live in a band context. Having said that, it’s a REALLY cool trick that can be very handy in certain situations. It’s quick to do, and easy to undo. Thanks for sharing!
Your comment very helpful and answers my question about what happens up the neck with this tuning. As i had guessed, it kind of desn't work for playing the whole neck, and all the other issues you mention true also. it sure does make a D chord at the nut sound fabulous though, and all the other "open" chords guitar-nich played also. Thanks for your in depth comment.
This is right in theory. But in my experience the influence in the upper regions of the fretboard is so small that you can not hear ist. Or the influence of the way you push the string onto the fret is bigger. (If you put only a little bit more pressure on the string the pitch gets higher).
But any difference would only be with open chords, or with anything involving an open string, right? Once a string is fretted, there's no difference in length. And if one is playing something with mostly open chords, it seems lie any advantages can be gained just by tuning- like flattening the G string just a tiny bit. Does this make sense?
Thanks for sharing this. The equal tempered scale bodge has always bothered me both in theory and on the instrument. Shall have to give this a try. I could hear a sweetening in what you were playing. ...Also, this idea I believe has potentially saved me a problem with my Revelation jazz guitar which I'm suspecting has the nut slots cut too deep. If it does then you've saved me the cost of a guitar tech. Also, there's the benefit of metal brightening the tone of open strings cw plastic nut, and as I use open strings a fair amount in my playing it seems possibly all win. Have subscribed to your channel ty 👏
There's an old Nashville musicians trick of down-tuning the G, B and E strings to compensate for them going sharp when fretted, something like 4, 6 and 3 cents. The idea is that although they are slightly flat, usually one or more of those strings will be fretted. It's a trade-off, of course. I played around with it, but found that getting the nut cut properly created a satisfactory tuning for me.
Here's what James Taylor does. I think it probably helps him a lot where he plays capo'd at 3 often. E string -3 cents B string -6 cents G string -4 cents D string -8 cents A string -10 cents E string -12 cents ua-cam.com/video/V2xnXArjPts/v-deo.html
If the intonation and action are set for it, fretting lightly shouldn’t really bend the notes sharp, and in fact then you have control over that dissonance by fretting more firmly
I've seen so many 'gimmicks' for tuning. THANKS for your EXPERIENCED & simple tip. I will try this for sure. I generally use the Peterson sweetened tunings to great success. THANKS
Good idea, but I did not like the sound of the open strings after I tried this. So I took a file and made the fretboard a bit shorter. Then I could move the nut a bit closer to the first fret. I like the result.
Thanks! Very cool trick. I'll definitely try that at some point - probably sooner rather than later. I've always got some guitar or another acting up. I like very light gauge strings, and I've found that I have to be very careful about putting too much pressure on the strings with my fingertips. And definitely more so when playing chords.
very cool trick! any time i see anything that solves intonation issues i pay attention. looking forward to giving it a shot. nothing more frustrating than hearing a perfect open G chord but the D somehow manages to sound like crap!
I found filing the nut to the point where you are spot on on the first fret fixed everything. I had a banana headstock Kramer I couldn’t intonate, blamed the weird headstock but after filing the nut it didn’t matter. Love it now.
As you were inserting that low E string up to the nut, I was thinking that could serve as a good gauge for nut slot depth ... insurance against overcutting. When I played for a living, the band would tune to the organ most of the time and just tune by ear. For my guitars, that worked extremely well. As I began to incorporate alternate tunings, I needed a strobe tuner (Peterson) to facilitate quick tuning between songs. Now, using the modern (and cheaper) tuners we have today, I feel that my guitars are never tuned "perfectly" by those tuners ... they only get me the the right "range". I always have to tweak the final tuning by ear.
Right now, I like my low E a bit flat, (according to the tuner), less so the B, but definitely the E. The B is ok probably cause of the comp saddle, maybe I could do somethin for the E, hmm...
Saw a Leo Kottke vid where he said "my tuner is making suggestions that I'm ignoring". He said it funnier. Me, I'm an intonation freak, so my tuner is often ignored, too.
I do this to my classical guitars. On the market there is the "S.O.S. nut compensatin" (about 15 Euro). same principle. Mostly I need it for the G string only, sometimes B string too. Now the open E major and C major chords really intonate good. Not perfectly (but that's impossible for a fretted instrument, and equal temperament). 👍
This is what I have been doing; I also frequently tune at the third fret, which I think splits the difference in intonation between open/cowboy chords and barre chords sounding good.
IMHO equally tempered fretboard by itself does not need this modification. It is needed if bone nut is placed too far from the bridge (not too close) or if touch point in the nut is not on the very edge but somewhere in the middle. Zero fret would eliminate these problems.
Most guitars I've owned had a 'B' string that was too flat when played anywhere off the nut. A small bit of plastic off a credit card, white glued to the front of the nut, solved the tuning problem.
I use the old super glue and baking soda trick. I intonate to the fret board, then see how the nut is doing, and I almost always need to adjust the B or the G.
I used to do this on my acoustic and classical guitars on the early years. I found it just by playing my guitar and not feeling totally in tune when playing various chord (also some buzzing starting to develop because of the nut). I never thought it had any merit or foundation in any scientific or musical knowledge. It just felt right
Steve--using your idea, I just slid a 1.57mm Allen wrench next to my Floyd nut to fix a fretboard gap problem. A "stopgap", but it works to help intonation! . TLDR: replaced factory FR nut on EVH Wolfgang Special ("old" style thru-neck screws), but introduced more than 1/16" gap between end of fretboard due to weird screw holes. Nothing I did narrowed it. Intonating right was impossible. Open strings & lower frets were ultra wrong. Still trying to figure a way to shift nut towards fretboard, but don't want to fill & re-drill holes at weakest point of neck. (No idea why Fender didn't use top-down Floyd nut screw option. Jeez.) On my journey to a fully compensated nut. . I love aLL your videos--thank you!
I've been doing something similar to that for years, using a small size "leg" of a cotter pin under stings 1, and sometimes 2. It works very well and once you find the right size cotter pin, it's very easy to do.
My Gibson 339 nut is hopeless. I sweetened it by putting a sawn off panel pin under the top E and B strings. I'd not thought of using an actual guitar string so this seems a good idea.
My McPherson carbon acoustic guitar has a compensated nut that has extra material at the low E and B strings. This applies only to the black nuts and not the older white one and it easy to see in photos on their website.
WOW. How timely. Actually my fret guy just did something similar for me - pasted a thin sliver of bone to the nut - but just on the hi E & B string. Thank you - gotta try your technique on other axes!
I think the reason it works is because it compensates for the angle between the nut and the finger when fingering the first fret. I try to file the nut grove down as far as I can, but the point where it seems to make a difference is where it buzzes. I'm gonna go try this right now!
Interesting video, especially when my old Yamaki folk guitar actually has a fret right in front of the nut which basically does the same thing as what this video recommends. That’s the only guitar that I have that has that but I’m certainly going to apply this to the other guitars I own, thank you so much for sharing this. Regards, Gerry.
Cool trick, thanks. I like to tune every string to E (1st string open, 2nd string on fret 5, 3rd on 9, 4th on 2, 5th on 7 and last string on 12) which I've found to create a nice balance itself already, and it can even kind of smooth out intonation on a poorly set up guitar.
Bless.your soul! Any thing to sweeten my 12 string! And i will consider a compensated nut for.my 12 string. But this is simple and if it doesnt work i can remove it. Thank you sir! Most greatful! You have inspired me! Thank you!
I've let a few acoustic guitars go over the years because intonation drove me nuts. I have lowered fret slots a hair so the dreaded D chord wouldn't be sharp but I never heard of this trick.
A great video! I'm going to experiment with this for sure @guitarniche On a day-to-day basis, I generally just tolerate the vagaries of Standard Tuning, but if I'm recording, I'll adjust my guitar so that the tonic notes of the key I'm playing in are in tune. To me, this makes a positive difference, but then again, it might just be my ears 🤣 I'll be looking forward to watching more of your videos. Best wishes, Mickey
I often thought about taking a dremel to my bridge to change the intonation. Scar My Guitar got around this by installing a Gibson style bridge on his acoustic model he developed.
We're getting there... Look at how much guitar you can get for $300 these days... Stainless steel ball end frets aren't out of the question for some of these Harley Benton's and what not.... Idk that there has been enough of a complaint or demand for this... Zero frets have been a thing that just never stuck... This may be a little different than a zero fret but that's what it made me think of... Idk why they never caught on tbh... Personally I remember seeing them a lot on like shitty acoustics from the 80s and 90s and that honestly caused me to associate a zero fret with cheaply made literal no name guitars... Like I remember thinking they must just have planks with frets installed and cut off 'x' length of it to streamline the process or something.... But yeah... It's been a thing forever. Washburn had that buzz feyton tuning system that was basically a zero fret and some adjustments across the board basically. Just never caught on.
Lots of factors to consider,,,temperature,acoustic guitars are temperamental in so many ways,,good stuff here!,,and then there’s the lefty like me that really complicates things.
So two alteration: pitch and tone Pitch: I’m skeptical because each string is getting the same pitch shift when open, but not every chord has the same open notes nor needs those notes sharp Tone: brightness may be good in an acoustic but for electrics may turn into ice picks and hand grenades. Curious what a nylon string would do! Great video thanks for sharing! 👏👏
That's very interesting. I'm going to try it. Also, I just got a Peterson strobo clip (mainly for intonating) and it offers sweetened tunings as options. I wonder if it's similar.
Seems like a simple enough modification, I particularly like the use of string-cuttings 'cos a full set of strings offers a range of thickness possibilities. I will definitely try this out soon.
It really makes a different, on the sound of my guitar adds more body to it I like very much I am going to leave the guitar string there, thanks a million!!🤘
Holy shit. It does sound sweeter. Nice. Learn something new every day. Thanks brother.
You're welcome!
@@guitar-niche интересно ,а для бас гитары что ни будь даст?
@@ЕвгенийБогданов-ц5м I'd say so
Essentially have you placed the 53 string in place at the nut which has sharpened all the open string notes, then you have dropped them all again to proper pitch. The overall tuning length of the string will be shorter, and the nut becomes a metal nut not bone or plastic . Of Course the guitar will be brighter. You have a metal nut interacting with the fretboard. Also you have standardised all the string heights passing the first fret maybe eliminating any effect of a poorly cut nut in terms of individual string heights which cause some to go 'sharp' when fretted. You do seem to have hit on something.
The key here was moving the nut closer to the first fret, the other items are of little consequence or benefit.
@@kristopherk5454 Would this be a benefit to just this particular guitar only / Was the first fret to nut distance incorrect and needing shortened or would this be the case for all guitars of this scale length ? I'd like to see this done on more guitars. This may be just one guitar or industry changing ?
Some guitars do have a nut that is too far from the first fret and as a result will never play in tune, but this is an example of “sweetening” the intonation of the guitar. I do think it would be nice to see if this works in more guitars, and does it actually work across the fretboard, not just the chords played in the video.
Thanks!
@@kristopherk5454 It tends to be more beneficial within the first quarter or so of the scale length. After that, bridge intonation takes over.
Guys that have guitars in their hands all week always have the best tips. Take what works for you and leave what doesn’t! 👍
Perfectly said, thank you!
Ye Gods! I am by no means a musician, just a keen amateur spanker but I have heard that weird interval thing between D & G. The song Ziggy Stardust really shows it up. Years ago I read an article about how Bruce Welch of the Shadows almost packed up playing because he couldn’t even tune up. Some convinced him it was a classic case of the “Banjo G” string some Strats were prone to. The magic cure for him thankfully was another old hand said tune your G first, then D, then B, then A finishing off with low and high E’s. Simples!
@@alancharles6789 Excellent! Great story :)
I did this with my bass guitar using a plastic toothpick to get rid of a slight buzz it had. It worked but then I noticed that it stayed in tune better and sounded better. I kept it that way now for the past 20 years. It still sounds great.
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing :)
I wondered how it would work on bass, thanks!
And you always have clean teeth in-between 🙂
My late friend Desy Butler showed me this 40 years ago. Pure magic. Works on many guitars
Excellent!.
а что ж ты никому не рассказал об этом?...
Good on you on that Buzz Feitin thing. At the time, I thought EVERY guitar made, should have used that system. Thanks for your kindness, Steve. Well done.
You're very welcome!
This is a really great hack. It's simple and it does a couple of things at the same time, as you have described. It's my opinion that zero frets should be standard on any production instrument. There are so many factors to consider when working with the nut... it can get finicky. This solution is beautiful!
Thanks!
This is amazing!!!!!! I've been around guitar players for most of my life and have NEVER heard of this before!!!!!!
You're welcome!
Hey, I really appreciate this. Equal tempered was a compromise that made everybody unhappy but it saves a lot of work. To be perfectly "in tune" the pitches have to be frequencies of simple ratios such as 3/2, 4/3, etc. because the harmonics of the vibrating strings follow those ratios. Sitars feature moveable frets for this reason, but it gets crazy.
: The best solution I've ever heard of is in the piano, where the trios of strings are tuned so the center of the 3 is exactly on equal tempered pitch, then the ones on either side are tuned slightly sharp and slightly flat respectively. So when you hit a chord, the strings that are off ratio ring down pretty quick, but the ones that are on ratio re-energize each other.
Yep, With every note accessible and in multiples, piano offers a whole different set of intonation landscapes.
This slightly off tuning could also be done to fatten the sound. If all three strings are exactly the same pitch, it doesn't sound like three strings.
@@acbulgin2 This is truth, music is strange and mysterious. Now what can we make out of that
Yeah well pianos in that case are all representing one note with one input. That’s not the case in the guitar as a general proposition
LOL, you lost me after the first sentence !
I have my nomination for a nobel peace prize!!! This dude.
Excellent!
I got my first Earvana nut almost 20 years ago. It really helps the guitar play more in tune - especially close to the nut. I bought some Solo Spacers that let you slide in a little insert to see if the idea would help a particular guitar. For 10-15 bucks you can try it.
Tried with a tiny allen wrench, you may be my new hero. Give me a couple more days to experiment a little more. Liked and subscribed.
Thanks!
This absolutely gets rid of that faint fret buzz on the low E, in my case at least, that 3 techs and myself could not find on my Starcaster. I'm late to the show, but here now. Subbed
You're welcome!
I used Allen keys just the right thickness on 2 guitars . a 3/4 size acoustic and a classical that i wanted to brighten up . Worked like a charm . I 've been playing for almost 50 years. This could have saved me a lot of cash over the years.
That is a good idea. A little harder than a piece of string.
I believe Eddie Van Halen detuned his B string slightly to make the major 3rd of an A chord and it's barre shapes, and then tuned the high E to a 4th from the B. That's why the triads in Running With The Devil sound so great. I notice in the live recordings that he never seems to play all six strings at once, which would show those to be off.
I just saw a video on that very subject - very interesting, but yeah, kind of restricting at the same time. Still, didn't seem to hurt his career :)
can confirm this 100%
I tune the guitar to the song im playing. Mostly 3rd and 2nd need to be slightly flat depending on chords played Running With The Devil and White Wedding are good examples. EVH would slightly detune most of his strings not just the B and E, the G and even one of the low E, A and D's were off by a few cents. Tom Bukovac did a vid recomending just aviod playing the 3rd on the high E
Yes, it makes a difference. Bravo, Steve, awesome strumming sound !
Thank you very much!
Great Idea. Thank you for this. Reminds me of the zero fret on old guitars from the 60's
You're welcome!
Interesting trick, easy to do or undo at no expense. Thanks
You're welcome!
My first fret is quite sharp.. decreasing as you go to higher frets.
From the octave and up, becomes very flat. This cheap guitar needs the nut advanced, as the bridge adjusters are as close to the neck as they can go.
Thanks for the way to test before modifications. Mahalo! 🐳🍻
@@bubblerings You're welcome! Good luck with your adjustments, and please make sure you use fresh strings that are fully stretched, otherwise you're chasing a ghost.
Where this really shines is when you play up-neck chords with open strings (I'm talking to you Alex Lifeson). This sharpens the open notes relative to the fretted notes (which go slightly sharp when they are pressed anyway), and brings the notes of the hybrid open/fretted chord into better tune with itself. I'm sure that's why he chose "And You and I" to demo it (the open D droning away is slightly sharper now)
Amazing little hack - I will try it soon!
P.S. regarding possible intonation problems elsewhere: I once chatted with a folk guitarist whose guitar was hacked to sound even sweeter. I asked to try it and played my own stuff it sounded awful and asked him why. He replied that he had set his guitar up to sound sweet within the first five frets - "that's where I live", he said. 🙂
I'll definitely try this. Along the same lines, I have discovered that any drop tuning I do will sound better with the bass string tuned just a hair flat. I have a number of guitars, and it works on all of them.
Yes I also discovered this with many alt tunings. I've programmed my peterson tuner now to tune the 6th string down about 10 cents which seems like a lot but just sounds so much better.
Just try it. If it doesn't work, no harm done. It may work better on other guitars depending on the nut setup.
Next time you do a string change, use a string offcut to see if it's worthwhile. Don't like it, remove it.
Certainly easier to remove than installing a Zero fret wire.
"...
The old man is weak but strength comes from him
A smile full of youth, and a gleam in his eye
His garden is green and seems overflowing
And his dreams await in his rockin' chair sky
..."
Hi, I listened to all of your video and have now tried this tip on 3 previously troublesome guitars. However, I used a piece of an old bass guitar D string (0.60) as I didn't have a thick enough regular guitar string. It works the same.
A fretted G on the low E string is now perfectly in tune...and everything else seems much better too. Not sure of the science but this tip does work.
I have a Yamaha (APX 4-12A) 12 string electro-acoustic that was a tricky guitar to tune and play...after adding a false zero fret, it now plays in tune and actually feels much easier to play. I really can't understand why but it does work ... Thanks
You're welcome!
I have one guitar that I somehow managed to intonate correctly after making a new nut and compensating saddle. It is now a great guitar to play and even my bandmate was impressed with it. No easy feat. I am going to try this with my other acoustic. With feedback of course.
Excellent!
If we assume the scale length is 25.5”, all the frets are equal tempered for 25.5”. But the actual scale length is shortened to approx 25.48”.
You used a pitchfork to tune the A string (A440Hz I assume). Then used your ears to tune the rest of the strings. Therefore, you were likely using “just intonation” to tune up the guitar.
So in essence, you are using a 25.5” scale length equal tempered fretboard layout, but with an actual scale length of approximately 25.48”, and tuned using just intonation.
The likely result of this experiment is that your guitar sounds in sweetly in tune with itself using certain chord shapes in certain key signatures. This is great if you only play by yourself as a solo act, and only stick to certain keys and chord shapes.
However, there is a HUGE tradeoff: 1) If you play alongside another guitarist, or a pianist, or any other chording instrument you’re going to have tuning problems matching with them. 2) If you start playing music/songs that take you into multiple keys, the tuning and temperament will start to produce out of tune chords.
So if you play in a band with only guitar players, you’d have to get all the other guitars to be set up this way, and you’d have to stick to only certain keys to play all your music in. As soon as you add a keyboard player, you’re going to experience matching issues with the tuning, because the piano is equal tempered and for good reason.
This is probably a great recording trick to make a specific recorded song sound really good, but it’s very impractical for playing live in a band context.
Having said that, it’s a REALLY cool trick that can be very handy in certain situations. It’s quick to do, and easy to undo.
Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome!
100% correct. Thanks for the taking the time to explain it.
Your comment very helpful and answers my question about what happens up the neck with this tuning. As i had guessed, it kind of desn't work for playing the whole neck, and all the other issues you mention true also. it sure does make a D chord at the nut sound fabulous though, and all the other "open" chords guitar-nich played also. Thanks for your in depth comment.
This is right in theory. But in my experience the influence in the upper regions of the fretboard is so small that you can not hear ist. Or the influence of the way you push the string onto the fret is bigger. (If you put only a little bit more pressure on the string the pitch gets higher).
But any difference would only be with open chords, or with anything involving an open string, right? Once a string is fretted, there's no difference in length. And if one is playing something with mostly open chords, it seems lie any advantages can be gained just by tuning- like flattening the G string just a tiny bit. Does this make sense?
Sounds great will give this a try.Thank you.
Welcome!
Now that was worthwhile. Thanks!
You're welcome!
Thanks for sharing this. The equal tempered scale bodge has always bothered me both in theory and on the instrument. Shall have to give this a try. I could hear a sweetening in what you were playing. ...Also, this idea I believe has potentially saved me a problem with my Revelation jazz guitar which I'm suspecting has the nut slots cut too deep. If it does then you've saved me the cost of a guitar tech. Also, there's the benefit of metal brightening the tone of open strings cw plastic nut, and as I use open strings a fair amount in my playing it seems possibly all win. Have subscribed to your channel ty 👏
Thank you!
I knew my ears wern't lying!!! This drives someone who plays by ear nuts!!!!! Thank you...
You're welcome!
There's an old Nashville musicians trick of down-tuning the G, B and E strings to compensate for them going sharp when fretted, something like 4, 6 and 3 cents. The idea is that although they are slightly flat, usually one or more of those strings will be fretted. It's a trade-off, of course. I played around with it, but found that getting the nut cut properly created a satisfactory tuning for me.
Here's what James Taylor does. I think it probably helps him a lot where he plays capo'd at 3 often.
E string -3 cents
B string -6 cents
G string -4 cents
D string -8 cents
A string -10 cents
E string -12 cents
ua-cam.com/video/V2xnXArjPts/v-deo.html
James Taylor has a specific recipe for adjusting selected strings a few cents down. Worth a try, look him up.
If the intonation and action are set for it, fretting lightly shouldn’t really bend the notes sharp, and in fact then you have control over that dissonance by fretting more firmly
My buddy owns a fylde mandolin and bouzouki that have a null fret which to me is an awesome feature.
Excellent!
Thank You for The Pointers Brother, God Bless
You're welcome!
Thank you 🙏 Steve. Great tip
You're welcome!
I've seen so many 'gimmicks' for tuning. THANKS for your EXPERIENCED & simple tip. I will try this for sure. I generally use the Peterson sweetened tunings to great success. THANKS
You're welcome!
...the Peterson 'sweetened tunings' are invaluable for pedal steel. I own two of them for every day tuning.
Same.
Good idea, but I did not like the sound of the open strings after I tried this. So I took a file and made the fretboard a bit shorter. Then I could move the nut a bit closer to the first fret. I like the result.
Thanks! Very cool trick. I'll definitely try that at some point - probably sooner rather than later. I've always got some guitar or another acting up. I like very light gauge strings, and I've found that I have to be very careful about putting too much pressure on the strings with my fingertips. And definitely more so when playing chords.
Nice! I will try this!!
WOW!!! THIS IS AN INTERESTING LITTLE TRICK!! THANKS!!...
Thanks!
Sound is great.
very cool trick! any time i see anything that solves intonation issues i pay attention. looking forward to giving it a shot. nothing more frustrating than hearing a perfect open G chord but the D somehow manages to sound like crap!
Thanks and good luck!
I found filing the nut to the point where you are spot on on the first fret fixed everything. I had a banana headstock Kramer I couldn’t intonate, blamed the weird headstock but after filing the nut it didn’t matter. Love it now.
Good point!
Excellent sound!
Thanks!
Thanks for the tip. I had thought the problem with the D chord out of tune was nut wear, and was going to re-cut it. Your idea looks way easier.
Thanks, hope it works for you.
Thank you for sharing this.
Subbed
You're welcome!
Sometimes I have a very slight intonation problem w/ my "Little Martin". I will have to try this...I subbed.
5 STARS!
--Van
Thank you!
As you were inserting that low E string up to the nut, I was thinking that could serve as a good gauge for nut slot depth ... insurance against overcutting. When I played for a living, the band would tune to the organ most of the time and just tune by ear. For my guitars, that worked extremely well. As I began to incorporate alternate tunings, I needed a strobe tuner (Peterson) to facilitate quick tuning between songs. Now, using the modern (and cheaper) tuners we have today, I feel that my guitars are never tuned "perfectly" by those tuners ... they only get me the the right "range". I always have to tweak the final tuning by ear.
Right now, I like my low E a bit flat, (according to the tuner), less so the B, but definitely the E. The B is ok probably cause of the comp saddle, maybe I could do somethin for the E, hmm...
Saw a Leo Kottke vid where he said "my tuner is making suggestions that I'm ignoring". He said it funnier. Me, I'm an intonation freak, so my tuner is often ignored, too.
Was thinking the same for nut filing.
Right? Your ear is always the best judge.
@@nickvalve9583 LOL, that's awesome!
I do this to my classical guitars. On the market there is the "S.O.S. nut compensatin" (about 15 Euro). same principle. Mostly I need it for the G string only, sometimes B string too.
Now the open E major and C major chords really intonate good. Not perfectly (but that's impossible for a fretted instrument, and equal temperament). 👍
Right! Equal-tempered tuning truly is the villain of the story.
nice improvement Sir, btw nowadays i never hear about the Wegen system anymore, happy new year from Amsterdam Holland☼
Thanks! And Happy New Year from Canada!
Hosco makes a "Sounds Offset Spacer." It functions as a compensated shim. It's magic!
Super helpful. Will have to try!
Thank you and good luck! :)
Thank you for the tip, I'll be sure to try it next time I change strings.
"Would you believe..."
Absolutely awesome. Thank you for sharing your tips ❤❤
You're welcome!
Read my mind brother, I've been hoping for a way to improve my intonation. When I get home today that's what I'll be doing. Thank you and God bless
You're welcome, and good luck!
yeh i never knew this, i will give it a go . i always found dropping the b just a tad down makes things ring out smoother to.
This is what I have been doing; I also frequently tune at the third fret, which I think splits the difference in intonation between open/cowboy chords and barre chords sounding good.
@Buntijr yes me to. It makes sense.
IMHO equally tempered fretboard by itself does not need this modification. It is needed if bone nut is placed too far from the bridge (not too close) or if touch point in the nut is not on the very edge but somewhere in the middle. Zero fret would eliminate these problems.
A zero fret does essentially the same thing in reducing pitch deflection caused by pressure.
Awesome idea! So simple. Thank-you!
Most guitars I've owned had a 'B' string that was too flat when played anywhere off the nut. A small bit of plastic off a credit card, white glued to the front of the nut, solved the tuning problem.
And there you have it - brilliant!
I use the old super glue and baking soda trick. I intonate to the fret board, then see how the nut is doing, and I almost always need to adjust the B or the G.
Great Tip for acoustics Thanks
You're welcome!
I used to do this on my acoustic and classical guitars on the early years. I found it just by playing my guitar and not feeling totally in tune when playing various chord (also some buzzing starting to develop because of the nut). I never thought it had any merit or foundation in any scientific or musical knowledge. It just felt right
Steve--using your idea, I just slid a 1.57mm Allen wrench next to my Floyd nut to fix a fretboard gap problem. A "stopgap", but it works to help intonation! .
TLDR: replaced factory FR nut on EVH Wolfgang Special ("old" style thru-neck screws), but introduced more than 1/16" gap between end of fretboard due to weird screw holes. Nothing I did narrowed it. Intonating right was impossible. Open strings & lower frets were ultra wrong. Still trying to figure a way to shift nut towards fretboard, but don't want to fill & re-drill holes at weakest point of neck. (No idea why Fender didn't use top-down Floyd nut screw option. Jeez.) On my journey to a fully compensated nut. . I love aLL your videos--thank you!
Thank YOU! I've seen the problem you're talking about, not an easy fix, but I think you may have some ideas on how to solve it now.
Your TLDR is three times as long as your "main" comment.
Um...bc it's the TL part.
I've been doing something similar to that for years, using a small size "leg" of a cotter pin under stings 1, and sometimes 2. It works very well and once you find the right size cotter pin, it's very easy to do.
My Gibson 339 nut is hopeless. I sweetened it by putting a sawn off panel pin under the top E and B strings. I'd not thought of using an actual guitar string so this seems a good idea.
Thank you for this. 😊
Yer welcome!
What a great idea in theory and in practice. Thank you for sharing. Niice … 🤙🏼
Excellent!
A brass nut will do about the same thing. You want to spice it up even more, add brass string pegs at the bridge. Cool trick.
I got the brass nut, saddle, and pins for my acoustic and what a difference. I think it was about $11 for the set.
My McPherson carbon acoustic guitar has a compensated nut that has extra material at the low E and B strings. This applies only to the black nuts and not the older white one and it easy to see in photos on their website.
WOW. How timely. Actually my fret guy just did something similar for me - pasted a thin sliver of bone to the nut - but just on the hi E & B string. Thank you - gotta try your technique on other axes!
I think the reason it works is because it compensates for the angle between the nut and the finger when fingering the first fret. I try to file the nut grove down as far as I can, but the point where it seems to make a difference is where it buzzes. I'm gonna go try this right now!
Good luck.
This was a great suggestion! There IS a difference!!!!
I just changed my strings so it'll be about 3 to 4 years before I change them again.
I'll keep your tip in mind.
😶Seems like a fair amount of time between changes - how often do you play?
Loved to have heard the open G note then a G# (Ab). such as going from the C chord to the E chord.
Interesting video, especially when my old Yamaki folk guitar actually has a fret right in front of the nut which basically does the same thing as what this video recommends. That’s the only guitar that I have that has that but I’m certainly going to apply this to the other guitars I own, thank you so much for sharing this. Regards, Gerry.
You're welcome!
Brilliant ❤
Thanks!
Nice. I've been doing that with the g string on my tele for years. That's why we can have intonated nuts, to fix this issue very precisely 👍
Cool trick, thanks. I like to tune every string to E (1st string open, 2nd string on fret 5, 3rd on 9, 4th on 2, 5th on 7 and last string on 12) which I've found to create a nice balance itself already, and it can even kind of smooth out intonation on a poorly set up guitar.
You're welcome!
You're so right...its sweet!!!
Thanks!
This is great…I’ve thought for years that I was just squeezing too hard and causing that D chord to sound funky!!
Every guitar maker in the World should be building guitars with the nut placed ahead .0265".
Can you explain why they should be placing the nut .0625" ahead?
@@Jamesfoofighter Sorry, I reversed two numbers. It should have been .0265"
@@patricklundquist9869 ok, but why that distance?
@@Jamesfoofighter That is what this video is about. At 3:06, he actually overlays the number .0265 on the video.
Thankyou for this information Sir,excellent, greetings from th UK.
You're welcome! Greetings from Canada! 🇨🇦
Bless.your soul! Any thing to sweeten my 12 string! And i will consider a compensated nut for.my 12 string. But this is simple and if it doesnt work i can remove it. Thank you sir! Most greatful! You have inspired me! Thank you!
You're most welcome!
I've let a few acoustic guitars go over the years because intonation drove me nuts. I have lowered fret slots a hair so the dreaded D chord wouldn't be sharp but I never heard of this trick.
A great video! I'm going to experiment with this for sure @guitarniche
On a day-to-day basis, I generally just tolerate the vagaries of Standard Tuning, but if I'm recording, I'll adjust my guitar so that the tonic notes of the key I'm playing in are in tune. To me, this makes a positive difference, but then again, it might just be my ears 🤣
I'll be looking forward to watching more of your videos.
Best wishes,
Mickey
Thanks!
Thank you brother.
subbed.
Thank YOU!
I often thought about taking a dremel to my bridge to change the intonation. Scar My Guitar got around this by installing a Gibson style bridge on his acoustic model he developed.
Why isnt every nut on every guitar compensatory in this way? That shitty out of tune sound has driven me crazy all my life.
We're getting there... Look at how much guitar you can get for $300 these days... Stainless steel ball end frets aren't out of the question for some of these Harley Benton's and what not.... Idk that there has been enough of a complaint or demand for this... Zero frets have been a thing that just never stuck... This may be a little different than a zero fret but that's what it made me think of... Idk why they never caught on tbh... Personally I remember seeing them a lot on like shitty acoustics from the 80s and 90s and that honestly caused me to associate a zero fret with cheaply made literal no name guitars... Like I remember thinking they must just have planks with frets installed and cut off 'x' length of it to streamline the process or something.... But yeah... It's been a thing forever. Washburn had that buzz feyton tuning system that was basically a zero fret and some adjustments across the board basically. Just never caught on.
probably because this method causes notes in other positions to be out of tune and so it is a no-go for other guitarists.
Lots of factors to consider,,,temperature,acoustic guitars are temperamental in so many ways,,good stuff here!,,and then there’s the lefty like me that really complicates things.
Exactly 🤦♂️@@migueldemaria3830
So two alteration: pitch and tone
Pitch: I’m skeptical because each string is getting the same pitch shift when open, but not every chord has the same open notes nor needs those notes sharp
Tone: brightness may be good in an acoustic but for electrics may turn into ice picks and hand grenades. Curious what a nylon string would do!
Great video thanks for sharing!
👏👏
You're welcome!
It really does sound sweeter after the adjustment.
WOW that's really cool Thank you
You're welcome!
Thanks Steve. I think I'll give it a try.
You're welcome!
I like the park amp against the wall. I have the reverb version, love it.
Killer amps, yes!
That's very interesting. I'm going to try it. Also, I just got a Peterson strobo clip (mainly for intonating) and it offers sweetened tunings as options. I wonder if it's similar.
Similar in application - that is, compensating for string pressures and variations to improve intonation.
Seems like a simple enough modification, I particularly like the use of string-cuttings 'cos a full set of strings offers a range of thickness possibilities. I will definitely try this out soon.
Great suggestion! Thank you!
You're welcome!
Thank you. I'll have to try that.
You're welcome!
It really makes a different, on the sound of my guitar adds more body to it I like very much I am going to leave the guitar string there, thanks a million!!🤘
You're welcome!
The people at True Temperament have designed their own fret system for perfect intonation.
It doesn't hurt to try this. I can see the benefits of negating deflection at the lower frets. I'm curious about other chord types
Interesting, will give it a go!
It does seem to sound much better. I'm curious, why this guitar wasn't built to this particular spec in the first place?