"You still have your serious anime" Every single example you gave was from ten or more years ago. The problem with moe in the current age is over saturation. The majority of series being produced every single season is moe (whether this be female-oriented or male-oriented). And this over saturation is painful when there used to be so many story-oriented shows and not moe, but now you have to struggle every season to find anything. "In the mean time, I can just watch Paprika" AGAIN. That's a super old movie. The problem with moe is what it is doing NOW. Your argument seems to completely ignore Goombah's, who is talking about the industry NOW.
+Lone Wolf Zakuro Guess what? it existed back then too. Just because the 90s had more "classics" doesn't mean moe is some new shit that was started with K-on or a problem.
Oh, of course the 90's had its problems! No duh. Every age of anime does. But the oversaturation of moe in its current form overtakes the other series. I have never seen so many series focused on pulling money from a certain demographic with such empty character traits (things like Free!, Meganebu, Prince of Stride for women, Love Live!, K-ON!, Yusha ni Narenakatta Ore wa Shibushibu Shushoku o Ketsui Shimashita etc) Because in the past anime aired during the daytime, it was supposed to appeal to both audiences. Now, as late-night anime, other anime companies attempt to cash in on the moe stereotypes of K-ON! and Free!, hoping to bank it big like they did. And what we have is a lot of crap that doesn't sell well in the blu-ray/DVD charts, along with a very few soulless series that print money not due to their value as stories, but as idol-makers. DevilSenpai
Because they are extremely well know so she can get her point across as simply as possible it's really not that hard to realise, also there are much more non moe than people see to know.
Zorro640 The point is, this is supposed to be a conversation about the industry as it is now. That's like saying "The job market is crap. But you know what, the job market 10 years ago was great, so everything's cool!" It makes no sense in the discussion.
With the current state of the industry it is unlikely that any of those animes from ten or more years ago would be greenlit by executives of animation companies in japan either. With how poorly many companies are doing, it is simply not worth the risk to take on something ambitious such as these instead of going the safe route and appealing to the lowest denominator. Moe isn't killing the anime industry, risk aversion is killing the anime industry. The same sort of risk aversion that is killing other entertainment industries.
Honestly, as much as I love anime, I find that the culture surrounding it can be embarrassing. When I go to check what the fan reception of a show is, only to see that most of the conversations consist of people debating who's the cutest girl, I realize why so many trashy shows release every season. Far too many viewers focus on the visuals or the character designs instead of what actually matters.
I honestly can't enjoy any anime anymore. As soon as I see a female character, my mind instantly goes to "this is just shameless advertisements meant to sell me merchandise". Especially, if you add coloured hair and a simplistic personality
"You still have your artsy anime, you still have your psychological thrillers and you still have your action-packed anime." She says this as she shows covers for anime that came out like 10 years ago. I can't believe anybody can defend the concept of what anime boiled down to today with a straight face. I realize this is a "Devil's Advocate" kind of deal, but this shit just has no defending. GaijinGoomba hit the nail on the head and the video could have ended just right then and there.
+Aleph Exactly, I agree. I can see where akidearest is coming from, but I don't agree with her conclusions and I didn't feel her reasoning for them were apt either. i understand she feels anime is balanced, i however feel the evidence points to the contrary. The very reason why the subject is talked about is exactly because moe and appeal of character(s) has oversaturated the anime market for the most part. Even if there are alternatives, it is still in terms of ratio rather absurd how much anime is primarily about "Slice-Of-Life, people doing arbitrary everyday stuff rather than there being a general plot (maybe with some weird overnatural aspect sprinkled in), moe, sexualized characters and comedy, primarily teen girls each with predefined archtypes" compared to the rest. The 2 biggest problems with this development are these, as Gaijin pointed out: 1. The continued stagnation and degradation of worth and artistic integrity from an otherwise golden medium we all love. 2. The effect on lives of people extremely affected by this development (of which are spread around the Globe and are affected in a very similar manner).
+Aleph She was totally referencing Anime MOVIES(not series) that are over 20 years old at this point.My Love for anime comes from the 70s to the 90s and some early 2000s stuff. I HATE Modern anime because most of it is Moe,Incest,Pedo,Ecchi Trash. Sorry one or tow good shows a year is not cutting it, and anime movies now are nothing but TV series related shit. Alot of wasted talent these days thats for sure.
+Yous0147 No, see, I *wish* is was just arbitrary every day stuff (with arbitrary everyday people), but it's not. Most of them try to create these over-the-top situations with the aforementioned bland characters. If it were something like 5 centimeters per second, then that would be one thing. But it isn't. It's... not really anything other than what it is. I think Mitsugi from the Anime Addicts Anonymous podcast just called it bullshit cake eating.
+Studio Bad Guy ...you people with the pedo comments. You do realize that much of the time the people who are supposed to be viewing the anime are around the same age as the girls featured in it? Much of the straight out Ecchi anime, targeted at older people, have older girls in it.
What Goombah said in this is probably the darkest thing I ever heard him saying, and it's a large truth to some point, although what you said is also kind of true, so there are these two sides to this subject.
+Silent Aswang Yeah, I think that when they were talking they were kinda giving two sides of the same coin. It felt like GG was talking more to the anime industry, and Aki was talking more to the anime community. Just my opinion on the matter. I don't think either of them were wrong. XD
Moe is only one aspect of what actual issue is. Almost all current anime rely HEAVILY on cliched and stereotypical character types like Moe. I don't mind if a character fits under a Moe type but if that's all their character is then yes, it's unoriginal and boring.
***** Personally I'm talking about a character design where writers literally just fill in the character like a children's. There is hardly any difference between other studios' characters because in the end they're all the same with just different "colors". This doesn't just apply to anime either but all film and stories with characters.
Vastator I know I'm a year late but I totally agree with you here. I mean I love the tsundere archeatype but even I can see how boring, cliche, bland, and unoriginal 90% of the tsundere in anime are now a days. What you said is the entire reason I hate harem anime cause that's all they are just a bunch of walking cliches with nothing to them.
Vastator ya recently I saw evangelion’s art style, and I really loved that cell shading, and the 90’s anime art style. That’s why I’ve been watching more older anime nowadays.
Yeah same here. I don't really care about the specific details or the one character who can get on my nerves. This whole idea seems to have been given way too much attention.
+Kenspiracy It was because he was having a hard time keeping up with things in his old age. He still liked to animate, even as a directory, and would apparently still push out a crazy number of frames while still checking others work to make sure it was as he wanted. His workflow was super stressful, and he eventually decided that he couldn't keep up anymore. He's still helping with various things around Ghibli (like the museum) though.
Eureka_sevenfold That was the same with Ghost in the Shell. It was considered mediocre at best in Japan, but outside, it's considered one of the anime classics. A truly compelling, hard-hitting, high-grade and thought-provoking anime that pushed anime's boundaries to something the international audience considered far more than how anime is typically portrayed, and is now very highly praised. The problem with Japan is that it tends to stick to one formula and think that works (i.e. moe, loli, harem, and typical dere archetypes like tsundere and yandere) just to suck in money from the anime otaku audience. The problem with that is that it only appeals to one particular audience, while it alienates the others. If the anime industry wants to be as successful as Hayao Miyazaki, they need to start thinking outside the box, by their own minds instead of pandering, and try to expand from their horizons instead of sticking with the typicality and thinking that'll bring the dough.
One thing tilts me towards siding with Goombah: Most good examples of non-moe were older anime classics. It's like saying "shallow writing and one-dimensional casting ruins Hollywood" - "yeah, partly, but not absolutely, after all, movies like Lord of the Rings and Blues Brothers are great!"
+Lasmiranda Dennsiewillja You just took the words out of my mouth. All of her examples are quite old. The only old school anime I've seen in years is Psycho-Pass.
+boblebobbob bobington How about Akane Tsunemori as a revolutionary anime character this day in age, eh? And she's just an intelligent, kind, well-adjusted and otherwise ordinary person. It takes a special kind of genre to make that sort of character stand out...
Imperiused The idea of such a character as the "normal in award of crazy" is as old as the hills. The example of Akane is just one of the better examples. On thinking on it more I finally got turned off anime for good after seeing so many good ideas turn into harem boobfests ala Gate.
Speaking as an outsider to anime, isn't facilitating an emotional connection _the very goal of writing a sympathetic protagonist?_ The problem seems more grounded in shitty, lazy writing.
Yes. It's the case in some anime\manga such as Berserk with the main character Guts, that's how it should be done. However, most anime nowaday just rely on archetypes of cute girls with no personnality that we are expected to grow attached too just because they are "cute".
Slice of Life shows are boring to me now, its almost literally always the same premise all the time. At school. In A Wacky Club. Harem appears, Featuring a Perverted or loser Protagonist. Repeat.
This season we have Joker game, Jojo diamond is unbreakable, Endride, Sakamoto desu ga?, Super Lovers (not really sure on this one, since boys can be moe to people too), Terra Formars Revenge, Ushio to Tora 2. Mind you these I found by just looking at a chart.
+Hüseyin Koc 7 out of 45 animes, according to anichart - 40 if we try and take out some of the ones aimed at childrens. If we consider than JoJo is an adaptation of a 80's Manga, we could say it's 6 original productions.
All the examples you gave of "no moe" animes were of very old animes. That is kind of the problem I have, we can barely see new animes that are different.
@@originalcomment4818 The problem is related to quantity. The industry is overflowed with moe stuff and one punch man is just one animation in an ocean of anime that's mostly moe stuff
You must have worked really hard to make this video! Finding the right anime picture/sequence for every statement is very tiresome. Good job both of you!
Goombah's point was that it's killing *new* anime, though? All the points you gave were older anime, a lot of them were even before the term "moe" was differentiated with "kawaii". If you look at new anime from the last year's cycle a heavy, heavy majority of the content is moe. Like more than 70%. THAT was his point. There were serious ones too, stylized, artistic choices; but moe isn't the "cute little sister" to the body of anime work, it's the dictator of production companies because it's one of the few things that sells products; and tbh that's all they really care about. I live in Japan, I WAS an anime fan, but it's beginning to get too hard to watch when the same plots, same premises, same character types are coming out; moe or not. It turned from story or character driven plots to just "alright people buy DVDs with cute girls, beach scenes, Onsen vacation, possible incest, guuuuuuuuue noises, and panty shots. Lets give them what they want!" I just have to disagree with you Aki based on market share. Anime's are made not for expression but for profit, and no anime's sell DVD's and figurines like moe. That's why it's so big. And that was Goombah's point; it's killing anime's to come.
+Chad Zimmerman Though you have to admit that Moe has long since permeated all aspects of Japanese culture and exists as a set object which needs to be defined and identified. I lived in Japan for 3 years myself and noticed that moe was pretty much universal in many ways. The perfect example of this is the ATLA defense industry symposium. I remember the advertising poster having its own mascot. Keep in mind, this is a massive, multi-industry, (Pretty much serious as fuck shit), with industry leaders (Men in their 40s-60's who probably own more than I'll ever see in my life), and the likes. And they use a mascot character. To say that it's just a market factor, to argue that these things are simply for profit ignores something fundamental to Japanese culture. Get out your suica card real quick. Mine had a mascot character on it when I was there in 2012. Does yours?
It's pretty sad... I can distinctly remember having conversations where, if we didn't know a character's name in a new anime we're watching, we'd literally refer to them by their personality archetype. I stopped watching anime for a while because it literally boiled down to archetypes -- including moe (a word that makes my brain itch to use even in text) -- in all genres. I couldn't get through Gundam Seed and it's ilk because I was literally checking off design-types and personality types on a checklist. It was like they'd taken the last several series of Gundam, boiled them in a pot, and skimmed off the most basic concepts. Gundam 00 to me, as much as I love it, is merely 'Gundam Wing boiled down'. All the personalities, all the roles the suits fulfill, the plot of the episodes themselves... they followed a very specific pattern and formula that effectively ruined the story for me. And that's even when I know that, merely being Gundam, the show HAS to follow a certain kind of pattern. It's a pattern within the pattern. And now I've gone and rambled. As the pattern predicted.
+Kalebfenoir Gundam Iron-blooded Orphans, the new one is quite unique in its own way which it hardly use any previous troupes unless for aesthetic reasons or to sprinkle it a lil(No Bullshit Jesus Asspulls here) ~ I recommend you watch it ~
Hanusu Keita Actually I have been watching Iron Blooded Orphans, though I haven't had much time to focus on it. It does subvert the usual Gundam plot tropes in a number of ways, from having worlds other than Earth being populated, to having someone note at the beginning that Gundams have appearred throughout history at times of change (implying there are more of them and that they aren't some 'new' prototype development). I've enjoyed what I've seen so far, though ironically, I see muted shades of Gurren Lagann in it for some reason. Don't ask me why; I can't justify it considering how bombastic TTGL is compared to the more subdued attitude of IBO.
***** Probably cuz the author at first tried to potray Mika and Orga as if they were like Simon and Kamina ~ with the Orphan bandwagon makes it look even more like DaiGurren Gang , just with kinda different objectives But yeah , The tone of the anime is different but it shares some similarities to TTGL ~
+Kalebfenoir Exactly, what i really hate when she tries to defend Moe using examples of ghost in the shell, etc. The problem is that, what she uses is BEFORE the actual MOE problem appeared, they're what MOE has become based on. They were hugely popular, the characters extremely well and then people went what did poeple like about those characters and then the tropes where born. I don't mind MOE much, it's an excellent shortcut for when you need to fill in secondary to background characters. The real crux of the problem, is that instead of creating characters from the tropes and adding to create a fully fledge skinned character they stop at the basic and go, well people are gonna like, yeah? Yes and no, like said, it's fun once in a while but always getting mac and cheese becomes boring fast. Maybe change the cheese, the noodles or add some spices. That way the basis is the same but the recipee is wholly different and the taste completly different. Variety is the key, the reason why you would an exam by copy pasting, is because there's no work, no love put into it and it shows. Let's milk the cow because it makes money, sure i know money is always fun to have. But nowadays revolutionnary comes from DARING to spice up the tropes instead of actually trying to be original. It's sad, I just hope that one day, it'll evolve but I sincerly think that it won't because TRENDS control the markets now. It litteraly pandering to the tropefan. Especially in the domain of slutty characters that can't live 5 secs without flashing TnA even if the anime wants itself to be taken seriously. Well, sorry, not gonna happen.
I pretty much agree with you there. Good anime are very far and few between. And though i can name you off some exceptionally good stuff thats come out since 2010, theres not that many. More anime is produced now more than any other time period, but it becomes a matter of quantity over quality. Go back within the last 6 years and count every generic anime to every bad anime to every good anime to every great anime, and then from there you might find 3-5 anime that can be put on the level of "master piece" You probably notice that youll find majority of anime will fall under the generic or "meh" category. And sure when you go back to the 90's generic was the majority then as it always will be with anything, the fact that more anime comes out now increases the amount of generic or "meh" work but some how the amount of good and great titles have diminished. And lets be real, something that is hilariously terrible is way more enjoyable then something that has no impact on you whatsoever.
So as a "gamer" who knows a lot less about anime/manga than about games: is moe to anime like the 2008-9 onslaught of Modern Military Shooters was to gaming?
What i don't like is that you seems to mix comedy anime like Lucky Star and K-on with waifu-baiting harems and romantic stuff. I like Lucky Star and K-on because it's funny, not because it have my type of moe or some bullshit like that. Cuteness and waifuism is not the same thing, i think. Don't lump something like Yuyushiki with something like Clannad like it's the same "moe stuff" to you. It's not even close to be the same thing. Girls that are created to be cute for comedic purposes and girls that are cute for you to buy a pillow with them is not the same (even tho sometimes may overlap).
thats why she said the definition was broad, Moe is a feeling and a moe show or character is one that induces it. weather it is good, bad, made for it or not isnt relevant. Moe is Moe, Moe is subjective. moe is *love* and *life* moe will grt you, moe is behind you... dont bother turning back its gone.... but still watching... allways watching.... waiting....
What a lot of people don't usually understand is the distinct cultural element that has led to Moe being a prevalent feature in modern anime. Japan fucking obsesses with cute things. This is evident no matter where you go in Japan. This has been a trademark of their society, but has manifest itself in different forms throughout history. From those shakohachi pieces which were so famous hundreds of years ago, to the elegant art styles, to the ceremonies and elaborate garden designs, to today. Moe is simply the modern manifestation of creating a feeling, and then connecting you based upon that feeling, and doing so with cute things. To say that it's killing creativity is not unfair, but it also ignores the fact that a metric fuckton of anime now exists and was brought on by demographic reasons. Ultimately, when people connected to moe characters, it meant that the product was viable in Japanese economists eyes. When they saw that correlation, they decided to capitalize off of it. This has spiraled to the point where more than ever Products normally not marketed towards international audiences due to it being not within their tastes, has achieved international superstar status. Had it not been for moe, Hatsune Miku would never have gotten big, not would people like Utada Hikaru, Puffy Ami Yumi, Ayumi Hamasaki, AKB48 and many others. We like to disparage the industry for the number of moe characters, but fail to acknowledge that a lot of studios became economically viable by using moe characters in their show to boost sales, which then led to those same studios becoming powerhouses and putting out some of the most notable anime of all time. Studio Ghibli being case in point. After the success of Toeis Nausica of the Valley of the wind, a lot of the creators went on to found Ghibli. Their biggest success was My neighbor Totoro. After that came the films like Kikis delivery service, which featured, surprise, moe characters. Even the bigger series that have been in existence since the early 80's also rely on this. Macross had a Moe character in the form of singer Lynn Minmay (Which, if you aren't using Minmay as an insult to someone, you're doing it wrong.). And of Course, there's the JSDF which has this same element in their mascots and unit logos. To say that it needs to stop, is to essentially argue that a key component of Japanese Culture needs to be removed so that the industry can somehow be more palatable to people. Or that somehow, in order for a product of Japanese culture to be viable, it has to be less japanese than it was before.
Yes... I finally saw someone who has similar opinion as me. This is their culture, their social value. And if I can say something more powerful, I would say that 'moe' (and kawaii) is a big part that makes anime to be distinct from other things. It might be the originality or movement that you almost couldn't find anywhere in the world except Japan which its strongest source resides in. Also, when I see moe characters in anime, manga, illustration (or even in cosplay) sometimes I feel like I am not forced to believe that this character is cute. On the other hand, I can sense its warmness and gentleness. I feel that it's so natural. I feel like people who design it or draw it show their true self. They are honest with themselves, their belief, their culture. They are honest that they like this aesthetic. With this connection, that character somehow show that person who he/she is too.
The oversaturation of moe and "-dere" types are the problem here why write an original story when you can write the 132nd slice of life situation with "-dere" mad libbing and call that an episode of an anime
I like how her "counter point" involves anime.... all of which is older than 10-15 years or so. Seems like you only proved Goombah's point that Moe is almost in every anime now.
Yup. Moe has been crammed into anime that dont necessarily need it. Check out Macross Delta. Then go back and look at the older Macross. They crammed moe into Delta because that's what's going to sell now a days.
Rodney Hamilton I love Macross too. Delta has just begun but so far I really don't like it much. It has some neat ideas, but then there's the moe that is thrown in your face constantly.
Rodney Hamilton Have you seen Macross Frontier? It was the one before Delta. They handled it MUCH better. There is a moe character in there but she is so much more than the moe blobs all over the place in Delta.
Whether moe it's the "junk food" or "little sister" of anime is fine, but the problem is that it's starting to get out of it's bubble and infecting the more serious shows. There's a couple of action shows that I watched that seriously got ruined thanks to the popularity of moe. Whole concepts got changed just to please the moe loving audience.
What goombah conveniently ignores is twofold: One, he seems to completely ignore the concept that moe can be used as a method of juxtaposition against darker themes, resulting in an overall better product than if moe was absent from certain more serious series. The best example of this of course being Madoka Magica - which gives you a host of textbook moe characters... and proceeds to slowly tear them apart in what is probably the best magical girl anime to date, and one of the best anime in general. The series would not have been half as good as it was had you not had that juxtaposition between the generic moe-fueled high school magical girl setting the show starts on, and the satisfaction we get when all of that crumbles away exposing character archetypes that were not meant for the realities of life to said realities. You don't even need an action genre to do this. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya wrote the book on many modern tropes associated with moe, but despite this the story was able to tie together a great set of characters and a bunch of cliched situations into an engaging and at times downright gripping anime series, and what is widely regarded as one of the best anime movies of all time, sharing spots on top charts with some Gibli movies. And that brings me to the second major thing that Goombah ignored: One of Goombah's most significant points was the implication that poor "moe" characters are a large part of what is dragging down creativity in the industry. That... simply isn't the case, and it makes it clear that for whatever reason, Goombah is trying to dodge the much more serious issue that is the fact that anime writers have lost their touch. Whether it's an original series or an adaptation, there have been a slew of anime that have had an amazing host of characters, but the writing for which has, quite frankly, sucked all the ass. Kantai Collection is as close as you can get to the textbook example of this: Within that series, you had several well-developed and nuanced characters, more than enough to fill out the cast list of main characters with good characters for any other show. But the writers never did anything with them. An unfortunately large number of these good characters are given side roles at best, and waffling between being an action show and a slice-of-life seriously hurt the plot. The more recent Classroom Crisis is another example, where you had more than a few characters that were interesting or had depth... and the writing just couldn't bring it together. Log Horizon, Akame Ga Kill, Angel Beats, Charlotte, hell even Psycho Pass fell victim to this in its second season. The problem isn't moe. The problem is that anime writers as of late haven't been able to write for shit. The industry has lost much of its writing talent, and as a result, the quality of anime has been steadily declining. This isn't about the money or about depressed salarymen, this is about the industry having very few talented writers at this point.
lol madoka and haruhi are trash first of all. as far as moe goes, it escapism for basement dweller otakus. just watch cute girls do nothing. also your modoka example shows victimizing, a bad/lazy form of characization moe is cancerous and toxic
Mr. Cuddles you can certainly good that opinion, but from an objective standpoint, the vast majority of critics would disagree with you. Also, not only is "victimizing" not at all the right word for the kind of characterization used in Madoka, it's also the same device for characterization used for many many great works of literature. It's mainstream, but hardly lazy, everyone from Homer to Dickens used used it in literature. And you can hardly call them lazy. At the end of the day, the only things cancerous and toxic about moe are the people who want to remove it from the medium altogether.
***** appeal to popularity. Madoka has horrible characterization/ abysmal pacing and victimizing and shock factor galore, not to mention a time and reset ending , which negated everything done earlier. It was terrible. Also "everyone does it" doesn't make it better, victimizing is bad no matter who uses it. It is no less lazy than jump scares, it crushes characterization. Also moe is a problem, not the whole problem, but a big part of it.
+Mr. Cuddles At this point I'm reasonably certain you haven't actually seen Madoka, because the ending of that show is the exact opposite of a time reset, the ending was breaking out of a cycle of time resets. But we're not here to discuss Madoka plot points, we've already established you don't like the show and I'm not going to try to convince you that you should like it. Much more problematic is the fact that you seem to think that the argument about conflict-based character development being a good form of character development is a matter of "everyone does it so it must be good". Aside from the fact that using a method of character development because literally every great writer in history has used it is a perfectly valid strategy, conflict-based character development is the opposite of what you imply - it's a case of "it's good, so everyone uses it". A person's personality plays a large part in how they react to something. Thus, the easiest way to learn about someone is to give them a conflict and see how they react. Tell a man to gather wood: does he go pick up sticks or grab an axe and chop logs. Tell him to make a living: does he work an honest job or become a bandit. Tell him to fight for his country: does he march proudly in the front line, or does he prefer to be farther back. Kill a man in front of him: does he quake in fear or become consumed with rage. Strand him far from home and tell him to go back: what tempts him, and how will he be accepted back home after years away. Having characters deal with conflicts is the best way to show the audience what a character is like. And having them deal with conflicts increasingly extreme in nature is a great way to show what part of someone's personality is real, and what part is the facade they show to the rest of the world. Every great work from Homer's Odyssey to Orwell's 1984; Shakespeare's Hamlet to Webber's Phantom of the Opera; Fleming's Gone with the Wind to Spielberg's Schindler's List; Tezuka's Legend of Zelda to Kojima's Metal Gear; Miyazaki's Nausica of the Valley of the Wind to Shirow's Ghost in the Shell; All of these have used conflict-based characterization, the same type that Madoka uses, to define their characters. To call that lazy, to say that it somehow crushes characterization when millenia of literature says otherwise, is to show that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to what makes good characterization, and what makes good writing as a whole.
+Mr. Cuddles So if it wasn't a time reset how are they all alive again? What character development? Madoka HAS no personality to develop and the rest are barely fleshed out until they are killed (and then revived). Give me and example of good characterization in this anime. Also watch princess tutu and look at how it did EVERYTHING BETTER.
Well I saw lots of Madoka Magica in this moe debate and even if it was moe it also had plot, some artsy stuff, some psychological shit and lots of action so I guess it all can exist togehter?
So, Gaijin Goombah blames Moe, but from what he said, Flanderization seems to be the one to blame here. And he is right I guess. But I side with Akidearest in this debate, Moe is not killing Anime.
Moe may have its own audience. But that audience is fanatical. They buy the most merchandise encouraging producers to include more moe characters in anime killing creative new plots, characters and settings in the process. Moe and fanservice are killing anime for me.
You know what else Ghost in the Shell, Serial Experiments Lain, and Akira all have in common? They were all made before the turn of the millennium. Angel's Egg too, by the way.
To answer your question yes, in fact it has pretty much killed any interest i had in most current titles since the only alternative is either retro anime(which isnt bad btw) or another medium entirely.
+Mr. Cuddles You gotta look deeper if you want to find good quality modern anime these days. It isn't like the retro eras where the most popular shows are actually good. Nowadays a lot of the better anime are shoved under the rugged by most anime fans. There is a lot of quality anime out there, you just need to dig a little deeper to find it.
Rickety Rickety Rekt son yeah hell naw, I tried that, takes way more work / time and usually isn't worth it. I'm watching snobs 60 and like 20 other title's, then dropping the medium.
Moe has totally killed anime for me. Most anime now is copy and pasted trash. I'm lucky if I find 3 anime a year that I like. That number gets even smaller because anime adaptations cut things down or totally change major events in the plot. I'm at the point where I'd just rather read manga than watch anime.
Thing is you're not addressing the issue that it still had oversaturated the medium way too far. There are on average 3-7 moe/harem animes coming out EVERY SINGLE SEASON, and that's not counting its genderswapped counterparts in BL/yaoi, which also is rising in numbers. And again, it IS killing originality and the need for substance. All the "non-moe" animes you have shown in this videos are 8+ years old, because the numbers of intelligent shows just dwindled so much when all you need to "make a product" is squeeze in the cliches you believe your "fans" are already going to like for a given. You can put bouncing boobs, squeeing lollies and some pantyshots in a 20 minute show and someone's already going to buy it, regardless of any further substances. Why bother making a masterpiece when you can hand your storyboard for a monkey to write? Moe is allowed to exist, if it really exists as just a "small sister of a big family", it's allowed to have it's niche, but with the numbers of moe/harem/BL going around every season these days, there just aren't enough "niche" otaku money to go around and support it and it shows. Most of these shows flopped dramatically and will take 3-5 years on average to break even, that still is far too unhealthy for the industry, and it is also not contributing for the image stereotype of either the producer or consumer of the industry either.
I have noticed that a lot of anime have characters that are very familiar just because they normally have one singular characteristic that is dominant over their other personality
Moe characters prohibit us from making our own solid connections with characters based off of personality, behaviors, their contribution to the story, integrity, and ethics. “I’m the cute little sister type, this is why you love me!” “I’m your bitchy friend with a good heart, this is why you love me!” “I’m a furry, this is why you love me!” “I’m the loveable doof that has no special qualities and I need everyone around me to take care of me....LOVE MEEEEE!!!” What about characters that you fell in love with because of their sacrifices, their honor, their kindness, morality, sensibility, boldness, and just...character? Today’s shows are nothing but emotions manifested into moving bodies.
Moe isn't the problem The problem is content creators of series use moe as an excuse to skimp out on the story and character development (like SAO, Musaigan no World, etc) It really bugs me when a series has an interesting premise which it then throws out the window for a Moe Romance subplot
Big flaw in your reasoning. The counters you use are all over 15 years old. This is not a debate about how anime was in the 90s, this a debate about how it is now.
+Kami Nana Attack on Titan uses mostly stock characters. About the only one in the who seems to break that model some is Sascha Blouse and to a lesser extent Levi Ackerman. But the three main characters are totally cliche stock. I think the reason that this series has been such a hit is that it puts the stock characters in an unique environment and is not afraid to kill of characters. Anime use to be more willing to kill named characters. Now it feels like anime characters have plot armor like Disney characters.
I actually just started watching Lucky Star. I used to avoid watching anything without a good story, but now I realize that it really is nice to have some moe too. The term "junk food" might have a bad connotation to it, but it is a good metaphor. It's delicious, but you can't, or shouldn't make a diet out of it. You need all that good stuff like the vegetables and some meat just like you need smart plot and some action in an anime. The important thing is to have a balanced diet.
In the pic at 8:14 I'm surprised that Kyuubei, Yuno Gasai, and Angel (Kanade Tachibana) aren't there (I think, I looked for a few minutes). I think the anime from which those characters are from are pretty popular (Madoka Magica, Mirai Nikki, and Angel Beats!).
I feel like the anime has seasons that it goes through. In the 2000-2005's there was a huge influx of Moe anime. Now, ten years later, its flooding the market again. When it no longer becomes profitable, it'll die down.
+Michelle Lehto Yeah, I'm surprised that I don't, but I'm kind of bored. Moe IS junk food, we all know that. There's no twists or turns, and unless you're watching something like Madoka Magica or Corpse Party, it's entirely predictable and uninteresting, albeit cute and good for a laugh. If we want good plots and developed characters, we go watch Helsing Ultimate, Cowboy Bebop, or some other show that takes itself more seriously. Moe can't kill anime unless it is all that's being put out, which is definitely not the case. I feel like debates like these are redundant.
+ichigoeater no but it is sadly holding a vast majority of the market in a stranglehold. Leaving only a small portion of it for the quality work stuff. Just look at the quality of the past 4-5 years of anime. How much works has been released that isn't pure copy paste or just plain cash grabb all with a big side dish of MOE cramed in compared to the "quality" work animes? :/
+kenji214245 Koutetsujou no Kabaneri, thank me later. We're exposed to more of the trash of the industry for sure, but it isn't like we get less good anime per year. I could name you 20 anime from the last year that didn't rely on "moe" that I enjoyed genuinely. For real, just ask and I'll pull up my a list.
It's difficult to follow this conversation. They start out by defining moe as a feeling, but for the rest of the video, moe is a type of character. It feels a little disingenuous to define it that way... It protects moe from being an overused character trope.
+Froggy711 I think what's going on is that they're defining 'moe' as a concept, then discuss how it's generally applied. I recall before hearing someone say 'moe can't be defined in english' but then it's almost always applied in a 'this is the over the top token character version of kawaii' manner, which I think the rest of the video addressed.
I just hate how manipulative it is. Once you find out the reason why "X" anime has a lot of cute girls with different coloured hair and simplistic personalities and body types you immediately get sucked out. They are not characters. They are just walking advertisements meant to sell you merchandise. It also targets people who are at very lonely and vulnerable stages of life. Like sad, lonely and depressed guys desperate for any kind if affection. Moe sucks and it should burn in hell
I think the problem with the argument for the defense of moe here is that every example of a good show that is not moe-influenced is from a relatively old show (around +10 years ago). If you look at the list of anime that has come out in 2016 or even late 2015, I highly doubt you will find anything like Ghost In a Shell or Paranoia Agent (if it existed I totally missed it). But I can guarantee there's about 4+ Lucky Star/K-ON style meo animes. In fact I can name some from the current limited Crunchyroll summer 2016 roster (going by cover): - Anne-Happy - Crane Game Girls - Wagamama High Spec - Usakame - BAKUON!! - Pan de Peace! - High School Fleat - SPACE PATROL LULUCO Again, this is by cover because I'm not interested in Moe shows. Regardless, the marketing is pretty dense in that direction. Even the good shows I can remember lately have at least one dense(KONOSUBA)/submissive(Dimension W)/scarred(ERASED) female lead that needs to be protected regularly.
What about Attack on Titan? That is not ten years old, they even used clips from it in the video. I also feel it's horribly unfair to generalize any cute young looking character as the same, or the quite character, or the glasses character, or any character you can think of. These characters share similar traits or even designs but so do all of humanity, that's where we artists get our inspiration. There's more to all those characters outside of their base personality and that's what makes them fun. I enjoy both Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z and Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho and they are very similar. Both are short, have spikey black hair, used to be villains, don't talk much except to insult others or boost their own ego, prideful and so on, and I am drawn to characters that share many of those qualities(It's actually surprising how many) but it's their individuality that makes them some of my favorite characters in anime. Hiei's got a sister he cares a lot about and that drives him, he was shunned as a child, he has a long friendship with another member of the cast Kurama. Vegeta had more trouble being good than Hiei did, he had a lot of relapses but eventually became a family man, his relationship with his wife and son is very touching, and while Hiei is prideful as well I've never seen any character more prideful than Vegeta. So just because they share qualities they are different because of what environment they are in and who they interact with. Sorry I tend to go on but anime is near and dear to me so I don't like seeing it generalized like this.
Missed the Band Wagon Attack on Titan is semi-guilty of this as well. Mikasa is the quiet badass girl stereotype. The Sasha (potato girl) is the glutton stereotype. Hange the science nut with fetishist tendencies (see also Rika Shiguma from Haganai). Even if the characters can be likable they are still little more than stereotypes. Hiei and Vegeta are the Napolean complex stereotype. The distinguishing characteristics after that are relatively thin. Vegeta treats Bulma about the same as Hiei treats his sister - detached to hide his soft side but very protective if they're threatened. The details of their arcs are different, but the arcs are identical as you said. Same goes for the Moe show girls. The stereotypes Gumba laid out were spot-on. To get even more specific, you can tell from the character design a lot of the time how an anime girl will behave nowadays. Got pigtails? Then adorable shy loli or tsundere teen. Got ringlets? Then rich girl with the haughty laugh (with or w/o fan). Older than 17? Hot teacher that tries acts like a cougar around the MC. This is 90% of anime now - the setting *is* the character while the characters are underdeveloped dressings to the uniqueness of the setting. In the 90s, there were cliches, but not *every* show had them. Slayers didn't have any overlap with Gundam Wing's characters which played out nothing like Tenchi Muyou's characters. They all came out the same season of the same year. There also weren't like 20 new shows every quarter.
I'm somewhat concerned that the examples of non-moe are actually all older shows. Some of the moe shows were older shows too, but a lot of them are newer shows. So it feels like the 'moe is ok' argument is weakened significantly, we need to look at the last season or two of Anime to establish what % was moe and what was not and revisit this.
I think Gaijin Goomba's moe argument is a big reason as to why Attack on Titan has become SOOOOO popular. AoT has come out during a time when it is hard to find anything that feels new and original in anime/manga. Now, is Aot the "most" original anime/manga? No. But it is "different" from the vast majority of anime/manga being made right now, and I think that's why people love it so much. I am not trying to say that Aot is the best anime/manga. Nor am I trying to change the heart of the topic in this video. Am am using AoT as an example to help point out an important issue in anime/manga culture. There was a time when this massive moe culture barely existed, so it makes me wonder; would an anime like Attack on Titan be quite as popular if it had been made 10-15 years before its original release?
I kinda agree and disagree. AoT didn't feel very unique to me as a whole, very shounen/seinen. You can tell it's catering to the masses. I'd say the concept of the show is pretty unique along with some of the circumstances that occur but character-wise...nah, felt very tropey. I'd say for the point you're trying to make anime like Berserk, Claymore, psycho pass...etc fit a bit better. That's only my opinion though >.
That great! I'm glad you have a different opinion. As long as people are thinking about it, and want to have an intelligent discussion on the issue, then that's what matters. I watched Psycho Pass, and I thought it was golden! You can tell by my profile picture!
+Rinoa Heartilly Agreed. It has a good premise, but I didn't feel engaged with it. I had to slog through the first season and was kind of bored. But I didn't hate it either. On your second point, Berserk came out in 97, basically the Action-Shounen decade. Claymore was in 2007, and Psycho Pass was in 2012. They're darker/more 'adult' than other anime that came out in at the time, but Berserk seems out of place as a specific example, since Moe wasn't really big in the 90s.
Ken Zhang Thanks! And yep I see where you're coming from. Regarding Moe in the 90's I think it definitely was there but it wasn't an established genre and wasn't as popular as it is now (of course). I can think of anime that had Moe characters (nadesco, ranma1/2, utena, sailormoon..etc) but not anime that purely revolves around Moe from the 90's. Berserk wasn't shounen but definitely seinen, I feel like I should've used Cowboy beebop as an example rather than Berserk lol
I agree with Akidearest side. Thats how I watch anime in a sense. After watching one that is dark or invokes sadness I will go watch a comedy that has a lot of Moe or fan service. Then I will go back to the other one or think of the other one with a more leveled head.
As I was listening towards the end of Gaijin's argument, I had a sudden jolt on my spine when the MEMEME music video flashed in my head. Creepy stuff you got going there Goomba.
If moe is just; simply put a personal and emotional connection to a character I don't understand how that could negatively effect anime or any other form of story driven medium. And while I am not overly versed in anime, I only watch a few, I can only think of "moe" as a good thing because from a writer's standpoint isn't that what you want from your audience to become connected to your characters on a deeper level than just seeing them on a screen? If someone could please explain this a little better I would greatly appreciate it
+Otaku Strikes oh, okay, thank you for explaining it better than they did, I get it now. And yeah, I'd agree that's not great for the future of any story telling medium.
Tales Archetypes are present in any kind of story, they can be developed to be more than that. Badly used tropes isn't moe's fault, it happens to any kind of story.
okay. i was just watching this whole video in awe... there are still other people where it counts, who - like me - look at debates from above and unbiased, before also looking at them from all sides' point of view, and THEN forming an opinion. i can see what either of you mean, and gotta say, i kinda agree with both. btw: also subbed to both
"You still have your serious anime"
Every single example you gave was from ten or more years ago.
The problem with moe in the current age is over saturation. The majority of series being produced every single season is moe (whether this be female-oriented or male-oriented). And this over saturation is painful when there used to be so many story-oriented shows and not moe, but now you have to struggle every season to find anything.
"In the mean time, I can just watch Paprika"
AGAIN.
That's a super old movie. The problem with moe is what it is doing NOW. Your argument seems to completely ignore Goombah's, who is talking about the industry NOW.
+Lone Wolf Zakuro Guess what? it existed back then too. Just because the 90s had more "classics" doesn't mean moe is some new shit that was started with K-on or a problem.
Oh, of course the 90's had its problems! No duh. Every age of anime does. But the oversaturation of moe in its current form overtakes the other series. I have never seen so many series focused on pulling money from a certain demographic with such empty character traits (things like Free!, Meganebu, Prince of Stride for women, Love Live!, K-ON!, Yusha ni Narenakatta Ore wa Shibushibu Shushoku o Ketsui Shimashita etc)
Because in the past anime aired during the daytime, it was supposed to appeal to both audiences. Now, as late-night anime, other anime companies attempt to cash in on the moe stereotypes of K-ON! and Free!, hoping to bank it big like they did. And what we have is a lot of crap that doesn't sell well in the blu-ray/DVD charts, along with a very few soulless series that print money not due to their value as stories, but as idol-makers.
DevilSenpai
Because they are extremely well know so she can get her point across as simply as possible it's really not that hard to realise, also there are much more non moe than people see to know.
Zorro640
The point is, this is supposed to be a conversation about the industry as it is now. That's like saying "The job market is crap. But you know what, the job market 10 years ago was great, so everything's cool!" It makes no sense in the discussion.
With the current state of the industry it is unlikely that any of those animes from ten or more years ago would be greenlit by executives of animation companies in japan either. With how poorly many companies are doing, it is simply not worth the risk to take on something ambitious such as these instead of going the safe route and appealing to the lowest denominator. Moe isn't killing the anime industry, risk aversion is killing the anime industry. The same sort of risk aversion that is killing other entertainment industries.
Honestly, as much as I love anime, I find that the culture surrounding it can be embarrassing. When I go to check what the fan reception of a show is, only to see that most of the conversations consist of people debating who's the cutest girl, I realize why so many trashy shows release every season. Far too many viewers focus on the visuals or the character designs instead of what actually matters.
I honestly can't enjoy any anime anymore. As soon as I see a female character, my mind instantly goes to "this is just shameless advertisements meant to sell me merchandise". Especially, if you add coloured hair and a simplistic personality
"You still have your artsy anime, you still have your psychological thrillers and you still have your action-packed anime."
She says this as she shows covers for anime that came out like 10 years ago. I can't believe anybody can defend the concept of what anime boiled down to today with a straight face.
I realize this is a "Devil's Advocate" kind of deal, but this shit just has no defending. GaijinGoomba hit the nail on the head and the video could have ended just right then and there.
+Aleph Exactly, I agree. I can see where akidearest is coming from, but I don't agree with her conclusions and I didn't feel her reasoning for them were apt either. i understand she feels anime is balanced, i however feel the evidence points to the contrary.
The very reason why the subject is talked about is exactly because moe and appeal of character(s) has oversaturated the anime market for the most part. Even if there are alternatives, it is still in terms of ratio rather absurd how much anime is primarily about "Slice-Of-Life, people doing arbitrary everyday stuff rather than there being a general plot (maybe with some weird overnatural aspect sprinkled in), moe, sexualized characters and comedy, primarily teen girls each with predefined archtypes" compared to the rest.
The 2 biggest problems with this development are these, as Gaijin pointed out: 1. The continued stagnation and degradation of worth and artistic integrity from an otherwise golden medium we all love. 2. The effect on lives of people extremely affected by this development (of which are spread around the Globe and are affected in a very similar manner).
Agreed.
+Aleph She was totally referencing Anime MOVIES(not series) that are over 20 years old at this point.My Love for anime comes from the 70s to the 90s and some early 2000s stuff. I HATE Modern anime because most of it is Moe,Incest,Pedo,Ecchi Trash. Sorry one or tow good shows a year is not cutting it, and anime movies now are nothing but TV series related shit. Alot of wasted talent these days thats for sure.
+Yous0147 No, see, I *wish* is was just arbitrary every day stuff (with arbitrary everyday people), but it's not. Most of them try to create these over-the-top situations with the aforementioned bland characters. If it were something like 5 centimeters per second, then that would be one thing. But it isn't. It's... not really anything other than what it is. I think Mitsugi from the Anime Addicts Anonymous podcast just called it bullshit cake eating.
+Studio Bad Guy ...you people with the pedo comments. You do realize that much of the time the people who are supposed to be viewing the anime are around the same age as the girls featured in it? Much of the straight out Ecchi anime, targeted at older people, have older girls in it.
Honestly, I love cute anime girls. But if that's all an anime has going for it, that's just lame.
that is exactly what happened to dragon maid lol
What Goombah said in this is probably the darkest thing I ever heard him saying, and it's a large truth to some point, although what you said is also kind of true, so there are these two sides to this subject.
+Silent Aswang Yeah, I think that when they were talking they were kinda giving two sides of the same coin. It felt like GG was talking more to the anime industry, and Aki was talking more to the anime community. Just my opinion on the matter. I don't think either of them were wrong. XD
Kestune
Exactly!
+Silent Aswang The BGM helps. Does anyone know the track?
Gaijin's opinion is connected with personal experience. If you check some of his older opinion videos you'll see this.
+Silent Aswang But yeah, both opinions are valid and directed at different things.
Moe is only one aspect of what actual issue is. Almost all current anime rely HEAVILY on cliched and stereotypical character types like Moe. I don't mind if a character fits under a Moe type but if that's all their character is then yes, it's unoriginal and boring.
+Vastator why i watch older anime most are quite good
***** Personally I'm talking about a character design where writers literally just fill in the character like a children's. There is hardly any difference between other studios' characters because in the end they're all the same with just different "colors". This doesn't just apply to anime either but all film and stories with characters.
Vastator I know I'm a year late but I totally agree with you here. I mean I love the tsundere archeatype but even I can see how boring, cliche, bland, and unoriginal 90% of the tsundere in anime are now a days. What you said is the entire reason I hate harem anime cause that's all they are just a bunch of walking cliches with nothing to them.
Vastator ya recently I saw evangelion’s art style, and I really loved that cell shading, and the 90’s anime art style. That’s why I’ve been watching more older anime nowadays.
So Moe is CoD of anime?
yeah
what?
+ZenoDLC lol well thats one way to describe it
+ZenoDLC Damn, no wonder I love moe so much.
+ZenoDLC No because CoD actually ruined competitive shooters
I go for anime with a good art style, and if the story plot catches my eye...
Yeah same here. I don't really care about the specific details or the one character who can get on my nerves. This whole idea seems to have been given way too much attention.
exactly!
Isn't this why Hayo Miazaki left the industry?
Yes
otakus everywhere
+Kenspiracy It was because he was having a hard time keeping up with things in his old age. He still liked to animate, even as a directory, and would apparently still push out a crazy number of frames while still checking others work to make sure it was as he wanted. His workflow was super stressful, and he eventually decided that he couldn't keep up anymore. He's still helping with various things around Ghibli (like the museum) though.
+Kenspiracy He was a hack.
Eureka_sevenfold That was the same with Ghost in the Shell. It was considered mediocre at best in Japan, but outside, it's considered one of the anime classics. A truly compelling, hard-hitting, high-grade and thought-provoking anime that pushed anime's boundaries to something the international audience considered far more than how anime is typically portrayed, and is now very highly praised. The problem with Japan is that it tends to stick to one formula and think that works (i.e. moe, loli, harem, and typical dere archetypes like tsundere and yandere) just to suck in money from the anime otaku audience. The problem with that is that it only appeals to one particular audience, while it alienates the others. If the anime industry wants to be as successful as Hayao Miyazaki, they need to start thinking outside the box, by their own minds instead of pandering, and try to expand from their horizons instead of sticking with the typicality and thinking that'll bring the dough.
One thing tilts me towards siding with Goombah: Most good examples of non-moe were older anime classics. It's like saying "shallow writing and one-dimensional casting ruins Hollywood" - "yeah, partly, but not absolutely, after all, movies like Lord of the Rings and Blues Brothers are great!"
+Lasmiranda Dennsiewillja
You just took the words out of my mouth. All of her examples are quite old. The only old school anime I've seen in years is Psycho-Pass.
+boblebobbob bobington How about Akane Tsunemori as a revolutionary anime character this day in age, eh? And she's just an intelligent, kind, well-adjusted and otherwise ordinary person. It takes a special kind of genre to make that sort of character stand out...
Imperiused
The idea of such a character as the "normal in award of crazy" is as old as the hills. The example of Akane is just one of the better examples. On thinking on it more I finally got turned off anime for good after seeing so many good ideas turn into harem boobfests ala Gate.
I hate those anime sisters that have those high, whiny voices
SAME
My ears bleed
Ugh ikr
You need to stop watching anime. It's not for you. The voices are great.
Agreeeeed
Speaking as an outsider to anime, isn't facilitating an emotional connection _the very goal of writing a sympathetic protagonist?_
The problem seems more grounded in shitty, lazy writing.
Pretty much. Moe can however be used as an excuse for bad writing because "moeness" tends to be based on popular character tropes.
Yes. It's the case in some anime\manga such as Berserk with the main character Guts, that's how it should be done. However, most anime nowaday just rely on archetypes of cute girls with no personnality that we are expected to grow attached too just because they are "cute".
+Irohen You know Guts is a really dumb show if you actually think about it outside of just grimdark edgelord, but so is any other work of fiction. OK?
Zorro640 Lol what? Guts is the name of the main charcater, not of the series. The series is called Berserk. And no, it's not dumb at all.
I honestly can't stand moe characters and slice of life anime's. I feel like it's overused.
+CreativeMind243 I'd also like to point out that Mononoke came out arund 2007-08.
Yeah, Slice of Life is like an animated reality show without all the staged drama.
+CreativeMind243 I'm not fond of it either, but I have to admit, Nichijou was funny as hell.
ThirdWheelyScooter Which Nichijou? There's 2 separate anime comedies with that name.
Slice of Life shows are boring to me now, its almost literally always the same premise all the time. At school. In A Wacky Club. Harem appears, Featuring a Perverted or loser Protagonist. Repeat.
>Says Moe isn't taking over anime
>Names only 2 non-moe shows from the past decade, neither of which is from within the past 5 years
Exactly
Every modern anime has an annoying little Loli.
This season we have Joker game, Jojo diamond is unbreakable, Endride, Sakamoto desu ga?, Super Lovers (not really sure on this one, since boys can be moe to people too), Terra Formars Revenge, Ushio to Tora 2.
Mind you these I found by just looking at a chart.
+Hüseyin Koc
7 out of 45 animes, according to anichart - 40 if we try and take out some of the ones aimed at childrens.
If we consider than JoJo is an adaptation of a 80's Manga, we could say it's 6 original productions.
Now I didn't talk about original productions I just mentioned some of the shows that aren't moe, which aired this season.
All the examples you gave of "no moe" animes were of very old animes. That is kind of the problem I have, we can barely see new animes that are different.
One punch man?
@@originalcomment4818 The problem is related to quantity. The industry is overflowed with moe stuff and one punch man is just one animation in an ocean of anime that's mostly moe stuff
@@syro2412 yeah i admit anime is basically ruined by moe lolis that arent even funny now, that or oversexualising
@@originalcomment4818 tatsumaki
You must have worked really hard to make this video! Finding the right anime picture/sequence for every statement is very tiresome. Good job both of you!
+Dorian Shkëmbi 147 pictures not counting ones i made on photoshop; I died a little. But thanks ^^
TO:Akiderest
I wich they had a 'moe' charicter in a sycological horrer where she ended up being the scarryest charicter. Wouldnt that be cool?
+Boredom Bear holy shit spell check
+The Bacon Clan T.B.C w
+Boredom Bear Higurashi When They Cry. may not have the scariest Characters, but your jaw will drop once you see some of the shit that happens.
ONIIIIIICHAN BUY ME GEIMU, HAMBURGUR STEAKU, COCACOLA
HAMBAGU!! CORA!! FURESHU RAITO!
God i love that show so much
OMARUUUUUUUUU >:((((
One-chan😸
+Godzillionaire ONIIICHAN, MORE POTATO, AND COLA!
Goombah's point was that it's killing *new* anime, though? All the points you gave were older anime, a lot of them were even before the term "moe" was differentiated with "kawaii". If you look at new anime from the last year's cycle a heavy, heavy majority of the content is moe. Like more than 70%. THAT was his point. There were serious ones too, stylized, artistic choices; but moe isn't the "cute little sister" to the body of anime work, it's the dictator of production companies because it's one of the few things that sells products; and tbh that's all they really care about.
I live in Japan, I WAS an anime fan, but it's beginning to get too hard to watch when the same plots, same premises, same character types are coming out; moe or not. It turned from story or character driven plots to just "alright people buy DVDs with cute girls, beach scenes, Onsen vacation, possible incest, guuuuuuuuue noises, and panty shots. Lets give them what they want!"
I just have to disagree with you Aki based on market share. Anime's are made not for expression but for profit, and no anime's sell DVD's and figurines like moe. That's why it's so big. And that was Goombah's point; it's killing anime's to come.
+Chad Zimmerman Though you have to admit that Moe has long since permeated all aspects of Japanese culture and exists as a set object which needs to be defined and identified. I lived in Japan for 3 years myself and noticed that moe was pretty much universal in many ways.
The perfect example of this is the ATLA defense industry symposium. I remember the advertising poster having its own mascot.
Keep in mind, this is a massive, multi-industry, (Pretty much serious as fuck shit), with industry leaders (Men in their 40s-60's who probably own more than I'll ever see in my life), and the likes. And they use a mascot character. To say that it's just a market factor, to argue that these things are simply for profit ignores something fundamental to Japanese culture.
Get out your suica card real quick. Mine had a mascot character on it when I was there in 2012. Does yours?
It's pretty sad... I can distinctly remember having conversations where, if we didn't know a character's name in a new anime we're watching, we'd literally refer to them by their personality archetype. I stopped watching anime for a while because it literally boiled down to archetypes -- including moe (a word that makes my brain itch to use even in text) -- in all genres.
I couldn't get through Gundam Seed and it's ilk because I was literally checking off design-types and personality types on a checklist. It was like they'd taken the last several series of Gundam, boiled them in a pot, and skimmed off the most basic concepts. Gundam 00 to me, as much as I love it, is merely 'Gundam Wing boiled down'. All the personalities, all the roles the suits fulfill, the plot of the episodes themselves... they followed a very specific pattern and formula that effectively ruined the story for me. And that's even when I know that, merely being Gundam, the show HAS to follow a certain kind of pattern. It's a pattern within the pattern.
And now I've gone and rambled. As the pattern predicted.
+Kalebfenoir Gundam Iron-blooded Orphans, the new one is quite unique in its own way which it hardly use any previous troupes unless for aesthetic reasons or to sprinkle it a lil(No Bullshit Jesus Asspulls here) ~
I recommend you watch it ~
Hanusu Keita
Actually I have been watching Iron Blooded Orphans, though I haven't had much time to focus on it. It does subvert the usual Gundam plot tropes in a number of ways, from having worlds other than Earth being populated, to having someone note at the beginning that Gundams have appearred throughout history at times of change (implying there are more of them and that they aren't some 'new' prototype development).
I've enjoyed what I've seen so far, though ironically, I see muted shades of Gurren Lagann in it for some reason. Don't ask me why; I can't justify it considering how bombastic TTGL is compared to the more subdued attitude of IBO.
***** Probably cuz the author at first tried to potray Mika and Orga as if they were like Simon and Kamina ~
with the Orphan bandwagon makes it look even more like DaiGurren Gang , just with kinda different objectives
But yeah , The tone of the anime is different but it shares some similarities to TTGL ~
+Kalebfenoir Exactly, what i really hate when she tries to defend Moe using examples of ghost in the shell, etc. The problem is that, what she uses is BEFORE the actual MOE problem appeared, they're what MOE has become based on. They were hugely popular, the characters extremely well and then people went what did poeple like about those characters and then the tropes where born.
I don't mind MOE much, it's an excellent shortcut for when you need to fill in secondary to background characters. The real crux of the problem, is that instead of creating characters from the tropes and adding to create a fully fledge skinned character they stop at the basic and go, well people are gonna like, yeah? Yes and no, like said, it's fun once in a while but always getting mac and cheese becomes boring fast. Maybe change the cheese, the noodles or add some spices. That way the basis is the same but the recipee is wholly different and the taste completly different.
Variety is the key, the reason why you would an exam by copy pasting, is because there's no work, no love put into it and it shows. Let's milk the cow because it makes money, sure i know money is always fun to have. But nowadays revolutionnary comes from DARING to spice up the tropes instead of actually trying to be original. It's sad, I just hope that one day, it'll evolve but I sincerly think that it won't because TRENDS control the markets now. It litteraly pandering to the tropefan. Especially in the domain of slutty characters that can't live 5 secs without flashing TnA even if the anime wants itself to be taken seriously. Well, sorry, not gonna happen.
I pretty much agree with you there. Good anime are very far and few between. And though i can name you off some exceptionally good stuff thats come out since 2010, theres not that many. More anime is produced now more than any other time period, but it becomes a matter of quantity over quality. Go back within the last 6 years and count every generic anime to every bad anime to every good anime to every great anime, and then from there you might find 3-5 anime that can be put on the level of "master piece" You probably notice that youll find majority of anime will fall under the generic or "meh" category. And sure when you go back to the 90's generic was the majority then as it always will be with anything, the fact that more anime comes out now increases the amount of generic or "meh" work but some how the amount of good and great titles have diminished. And lets be real, something that is hilariously terrible is way more enjoyable then something that has no impact on you whatsoever.
2:45 - 3:00 Holy shit, Gaijin Goombah's taking the gloves off here XD
I just realized...
Though not moe, Lelouch's hand is more recognizable than his face
"Moe isn't all of anime, there's tons of anime that aren't moe"
*Proceeds to almost exclusively use shows older than the moe boom as examples*
+1800Flappyjackjr
Haha I was going to say that as well.
+1800Flappyjackjr Noticed that as well :[
+1800Flappyjackjr
Yep, was thinking that as well.
Still a correct statement.
So as a "gamer" who knows a lot less about anime/manga than about games: is moe to anime like the 2008-9 onslaught of Modern Military Shooters was to gaming?
+Poldovico
YES
Very very close. There are still the good ones but the bad tend to just cover them
its like super hero movies to movie goers.
+Poldovico Not even close.
not really :\
moe it's like pop music... and it hurt the industry in the long run..
+SamurayGiatto
i already knew your link so stop reminding me
What i don't like is that you seems to mix comedy anime like Lucky Star and K-on with waifu-baiting harems and romantic stuff. I like Lucky Star and K-on because it's funny, not because it have my type of moe or some bullshit like that. Cuteness and waifuism is not the same thing, i think.
Don't lump something like Yuyushiki with something like Clannad like it's the same "moe stuff" to you. It's not even close to be the same thing. Girls that are created to be cute for comedic purposes and girls that are cute for you to buy a pillow with them is not the same (even tho sometimes may overlap).
agree
***** Nah, i'd rather have cute nendoroid of her
Yeah, I totally agree with you
+1 for Yuyushiki
thats why she said the definition was broad, Moe is a feeling and a moe show or character is one that induces it. weather it is good, bad, made for it or not isnt relevant. Moe is Moe, Moe is subjective. moe is *love* and *life* moe will grt you, moe is behind you... dont bother turning back its gone.... but still watching... allways watching.... waiting....
TL;DR:
Overuse and Abuse of tropes can shine a bad light on a medium.
**Looks at her profile picture**
She must like hentai... Not sure why though...
*_HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM_*
HMMMMMMMMMMM
"If you like hentai, you're immediately a horrible person and should kills yourself." You sound like a cool dude
+owlflame It's more, it's a very cringey avatar
+Leo Gir (Leon) Lol yah
XD
What a lot of people don't usually understand is the distinct cultural element that has led to Moe being a prevalent feature in modern anime.
Japan fucking obsesses with cute things. This is evident no matter where you go in Japan. This has been a trademark of their society, but has manifest itself in different forms throughout history. From those shakohachi pieces which were so famous hundreds of years ago, to the elegant art styles, to the ceremonies and elaborate garden designs, to today. Moe is simply the modern manifestation of creating a feeling, and then connecting you based upon that feeling, and doing so with cute things. To say that it's killing creativity is not unfair, but it also ignores the fact that a metric fuckton of anime now exists and was brought on by demographic reasons.
Ultimately, when people connected to moe characters, it meant that the product was viable in Japanese economists eyes. When they saw that correlation, they decided to capitalize off of it. This has spiraled to the point where more than ever Products normally not marketed towards international audiences due to it being not within their tastes, has achieved international superstar status. Had it not been for moe, Hatsune Miku would never have gotten big, not would people like Utada Hikaru, Puffy Ami Yumi, Ayumi Hamasaki, AKB48 and many others.
We like to disparage the industry for the number of moe characters, but fail to acknowledge that a lot of studios became economically viable by using moe characters in their show to boost sales, which then led to those same studios becoming powerhouses and putting out some of the most notable anime of all time.
Studio Ghibli being case in point.
After the success of Toeis Nausica of the Valley of the wind, a lot of the creators went on to found Ghibli.
Their biggest success was My neighbor Totoro. After that came the films like Kikis delivery service, which featured, surprise, moe characters.
Even the bigger series that have been in existence since the early 80's also rely on this. Macross had a Moe character in the form of singer Lynn Minmay (Which, if you aren't using Minmay as an insult to someone, you're doing it wrong.).
And of Course, there's the JSDF which has this same element in their mascots and unit logos.
To say that it needs to stop, is to essentially argue that a key component of Japanese Culture needs to be removed so that the industry can somehow be more palatable to people. Or that somehow, in order for a product of Japanese culture to be viable, it has to be less japanese than it was before.
+Maakwa Memegwans What a reply..
LugiaGarchomp12 Very profound stuff
Amy Yeah.
Your comment was interesting to read through btw :)
Read though all of it.
Yes... I finally saw someone who has similar opinion as me.
This is their culture, their social value. And if I can say something more powerful, I would say that 'moe' (and kawaii) is a big part that makes anime to be distinct from other things. It might be the originality or movement that you almost couldn't find anywhere in the world except Japan which its strongest source resides in.
Also, when I see moe characters in anime, manga, illustration (or even in cosplay) sometimes I feel like I am not forced to believe that this character is cute. On the other hand, I can sense its warmness and gentleness. I feel that it's so natural. I feel like people who design it or draw it show their true self. They are honest with themselves, their belief, their culture. They are honest that they like this aesthetic. With this connection, that character somehow show that person who he/she is too.
The thing that's killing anime is those long fighting anime like Naruto, Bleach, My hero academia etc.
The oversaturation of moe and "-dere" types are the problem here
why write an original story when you can write the 132nd slice of life situation with "-dere" mad libbing and call that an episode of an anime
I totally agree with Goombah!! ^^
I didn't knew Goonbah's channel!! Thanks a alot!! ^^-
I like how her "counter point" involves anime.... all of which is older than 10-15 years or so. Seems like you only proved Goombah's point that Moe is almost in every anime now.
Yup. Moe has been crammed into anime that dont necessarily need it. Check out Macross Delta. Then go back and look at the older Macross. They crammed moe into Delta because that's what's going to sell now a days.
***** I loved Macross, didn't even know there was a new one. Delta you say? Hmmm... is it any good (even if it has Moe now)?
Rodney Hamilton I love Macross too. Delta has just begun but so far I really don't like it much. It has some neat ideas, but then there's the moe that is thrown in your face constantly.
***** well, I guess I will put it on my list of stuff to look into then.
Rodney Hamilton Have you seen Macross Frontier? It was the one before Delta. They handled it MUCH better. There is a moe character in there but she is so much more than the moe blobs all over the place in Delta.
Whether moe it's the "junk food" or "little sister" of anime is fine, but the problem is that it's starting to get out of it's bubble and infecting the more serious shows.
There's a couple of action shows that I watched that seriously got ruined thanks to the popularity of moe. Whole concepts got changed just to please the moe loving audience.
I'm early it's my time to shine
*shines*
same
+Daniel John The year is 20XX
same tbh
If only I could be so grossly incandescent...
+KuroNoTenno Praise The Sun!!!
Is this why Hayao Miyazaki once said "Anime was a mistake"?
Yes...
Guess you could say unoriginal Moe-characters are very... two-dimentional.
*Badum -Tss*
I'm so lonely.
What goombah conveniently ignores is twofold:
One, he seems to completely ignore the concept that moe can be used as a method of juxtaposition against darker themes, resulting in an overall better product than if moe was absent from certain more serious series. The best example of this of course being Madoka Magica - which gives you a host of textbook moe characters... and proceeds to slowly tear them apart in what is probably the best magical girl anime to date, and one of the best anime in general. The series would not have been half as good as it was had you not had that juxtaposition between the generic moe-fueled high school magical girl setting the show starts on, and the satisfaction we get when all of that crumbles away exposing character archetypes that were not meant for the realities of life to said realities.
You don't even need an action genre to do this. The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya wrote the book on many modern tropes associated with moe, but despite this the story was able to tie together a great set of characters and a bunch of cliched situations into an engaging and at times downright gripping anime series, and what is widely regarded as one of the best anime movies of all time, sharing spots on top charts with some Gibli movies. And that brings me to the second major thing that Goombah ignored:
One of Goombah's most significant points was the implication that poor "moe" characters are a large part of what is dragging down creativity in the industry. That... simply isn't the case, and it makes it clear that for whatever reason, Goombah is trying to dodge the much more serious issue that is the fact that anime writers have lost their touch. Whether it's an original series or an adaptation, there have been a slew of anime that have had an amazing host of characters, but the writing for which has, quite frankly, sucked all the ass. Kantai Collection is as close as you can get to the textbook example of this: Within that series, you had several well-developed and nuanced characters, more than enough to fill out the cast list of main characters with good characters for any other show. But the writers never did anything with them. An unfortunately large number of these good characters are given side roles at best, and waffling between being an action show and a slice-of-life seriously hurt the plot. The more recent Classroom Crisis is another example, where you had more than a few characters that were interesting or had depth... and the writing just couldn't bring it together. Log Horizon, Akame Ga Kill, Angel Beats, Charlotte, hell even Psycho Pass fell victim to this in its second season.
The problem isn't moe. The problem is that anime writers as of late haven't been able to write for shit. The industry has lost much of its writing talent, and as a result, the quality of anime has been steadily declining. This isn't about the money or about depressed salarymen, this is about the industry having very few talented writers at this point.
lol madoka and haruhi are trash first of all.
as far as moe goes, it escapism for basement dweller otakus. just watch cute girls do nothing.
also your modoka example shows victimizing, a bad/lazy form of characization
moe is cancerous and toxic
Mr. Cuddles you can certainly good that opinion, but from an objective standpoint, the vast majority of critics would disagree with you.
Also, not only is "victimizing" not at all the right word for the kind of characterization used in Madoka, it's also the same device for characterization used for many many great works of literature. It's mainstream, but hardly lazy, everyone from Homer to Dickens used used it in literature. And you can hardly call them lazy.
At the end of the day, the only things cancerous and toxic about moe are the people who want to remove it from the medium altogether.
***** appeal to popularity. Madoka has horrible characterization/ abysmal pacing and victimizing and shock factor galore, not to mention a time and reset ending , which negated everything done earlier. It was terrible.
Also "everyone does it" doesn't make it better, victimizing is bad no matter who uses it. It is no less lazy than jump scares, it crushes characterization. Also moe is a problem, not the whole problem, but a big part of it.
+Mr. Cuddles At this point I'm reasonably certain you haven't actually seen Madoka, because the ending of that show is the exact opposite of a time reset, the ending was breaking out of a cycle of time resets. But we're not here to discuss Madoka plot points, we've already established you don't like the show and I'm not going to try to convince you that you should like it.
Much more problematic is the fact that you seem to think that the argument about conflict-based character development being a good form of character development is a matter of "everyone does it so it must be good". Aside from the fact that using a method of character development because literally every great writer in history has used it is a perfectly valid strategy, conflict-based character development is the opposite of what you imply - it's a case of "it's good, so everyone uses it". A person's personality plays a large part in how they react to something. Thus, the easiest way to learn about someone is to give them a conflict and see how they react. Tell a man to gather wood: does he go pick up sticks or grab an axe and chop logs. Tell him to make a living: does he work an honest job or become a bandit. Tell him to fight for his country: does he march proudly in the front line, or does he prefer to be farther back. Kill a man in front of him: does he quake in fear or become consumed with rage. Strand him far from home and tell him to go back: what tempts him, and how will he be accepted back home after years away.
Having characters deal with conflicts is the best way to show the audience what a character is like. And having them deal with conflicts increasingly extreme in nature is a great way to show what part of someone's personality is real, and what part is the facade they show to the rest of the world. Every great work from Homer's Odyssey to Orwell's 1984; Shakespeare's Hamlet to Webber's Phantom of the Opera; Fleming's Gone with the Wind to Spielberg's Schindler's List; Tezuka's Legend of Zelda to Kojima's Metal Gear; Miyazaki's Nausica of the Valley of the Wind to Shirow's Ghost in the Shell; All of these have used conflict-based characterization, the same type that Madoka uses, to define their characters.
To call that lazy, to say that it somehow crushes characterization when millenia of literature says otherwise, is to show that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when it comes to what makes good characterization, and what makes good writing as a whole.
+Mr. Cuddles
So if it wasn't a time reset how are they all alive again?
What character development? Madoka HAS no personality to develop and the rest are barely fleshed out until they are killed (and then revived).
Give me and example of good characterization in this anime.
Also watch princess tutu and look at how it did EVERYTHING BETTER.
Well I saw lots of Madoka Magica in this moe debate and even if it was moe it also had plot, some artsy stuff, some psychological shit and lots of action so I guess it all can exist togehter?
YUP
Only girls who are too obsessed with cuteness will find moe appealing.
Who is this Moe guy and why is he killing Annie May?
XD hey I seen you on UA-cam
So, Gaijin Goombah blames Moe, but from what he said, Flanderization seems to be the one to blame here. And he is right I guess. But I side with Akidearest in this debate, Moe is not killing Anime.
+DarkZholt So do I.
hold up hold up hold up.
6:19
That titan gif.
where can I find it.
i only need 1 response: madoka magika, dont be fooled by moe style
You have a MLP profile picture.
Moe may have its own audience. But that audience is fanatical. They buy the most merchandise encouraging producers to include more moe characters in anime killing creative new plots, characters and settings in the process.
Moe and fanservice are killing anime for me.
You know what else Ghost in the Shell, Serial Experiments Lain, and Akira all have in common?
They were all made before the turn of the millennium.
Angel's Egg too, by the way.
To answer your question yes, in fact it has pretty much killed any interest i had in most current titles since the only alternative is either retro anime(which isnt bad btw) or another medium entirely.
Agreed
theres always jojo :)
+Mr. Cuddles You should check out Terraformar or Saint Seiya, if you haven't, top notch animes and mangas.
+Mr. Cuddles You gotta look deeper if you want to find good quality modern anime these days. It isn't like the retro eras where the most popular shows are actually good. Nowadays a lot of the better anime are shoved under the rugged by most anime fans.
There is a lot of quality anime out there, you just need to dig a little deeper to find it.
Rickety Rickety Rekt son yeah hell naw, I tried that, takes way more work / time and usually isn't worth it. I'm watching snobs 60 and like 20 other title's, then dropping the medium.
Jeez, Gaijin Goomba's analysis was really freaking depressing XD
Good vid tho
+TheDuckMask
_"Better by far to embrace the hard truth, than a reassuring fable."_
Carl Sagan
I know it just made me so damn sad and making question about my life as a hold
Moe has totally killed anime for me. Most anime now is copy and pasted trash. I'm lucky if I find 3 anime a year that I like. That number gets even smaller because anime adaptations cut things down or totally change major events in the plot. I'm at the point where I'd just rather read manga than watch anime.
Its just a theory, an Anime Theory!
But all the examples Aki gave are older anime. The more recent ones have their fair share of moe.
I find it amusing that your major examples of non-moe are over 5 years old or older.
It's not moe killing anime... it's moe + ecchi + silly story/characters killing anime
Yes, I love moe. Especially slice of life.
Thing is you're not addressing the issue that it still had oversaturated the medium way too far. There are on average 3-7 moe/harem animes coming out EVERY SINGLE SEASON, and that's not counting its genderswapped counterparts in BL/yaoi, which also is rising in numbers.
And again, it IS killing originality and the need for substance. All the "non-moe" animes you have shown in this videos are 8+ years old, because the numbers of intelligent shows just dwindled so much when all you need to "make a product" is squeeze in the cliches you believe your "fans" are already going to like for a given. You can put bouncing boobs, squeeing lollies and some pantyshots in a 20 minute show and someone's already going to buy it, regardless of any further substances. Why bother making a masterpiece when you can hand your storyboard for a monkey to write?
Moe is allowed to exist, if it really exists as just a "small sister of a big family", it's allowed to have it's niche, but with the numbers of moe/harem/BL going around every season these days, there just aren't enough "niche" otaku money to go around and support it and it shows. Most of these shows flopped dramatically and will take 3-5 years on average to break even, that still is far too unhealthy for the industry, and it is also not contributing for the image stereotype of either the producer or consumer of the industry either.
I have noticed that a lot of anime have characters that are very familiar just because they normally have one singular characteristic that is dominant over their other personality
I like how the criticism towards Moe turns into a criticism about anime clichés. Like.. there are no clichés in any other medium, am I right?
Whataboutism.
Moe characters prohibit us from making our own solid connections with characters based off of personality, behaviors, their contribution to the story, integrity, and ethics.
“I’m the cute little sister type, this is why you love me!”
“I’m your bitchy friend with a good heart, this is why you love me!”
“I’m a furry, this is why you love me!”
“I’m the loveable doof that has no special qualities and I need everyone around me to take care of me....LOVE MEEEEE!!!”
What about characters that you fell in love with because of their sacrifices, their honor, their kindness, morality, sensibility, boldness, and just...character?
Today’s shows are nothing but emotions manifested into moving bodies.
Is "tsundere with a sorft heart" a cliche?
all the lucky star refs make me rly happy bc its one of my fave animes ever
Yes moe is kind of killing anime
>watch a GG video
>recommended to come here
>not sure what I'm in for but watch anyways
...You win this round Akidearest. Subscribed.
Moe isn't the problem
The problem is content creators of series use moe as an excuse to skimp out on the story and character development (like SAO, Musaigan no World, etc)
It really bugs me when a series has an interesting premise which it then throws out the window for a Moe Romance subplot
Big flaw in your reasoning. The counters you use are all over 15 years old.
This is not a debate about how anime was in the 90s, this a debate about how it is now.
+TC Coltharp Attack on Titan is 15 years old?
+Kami Nana The Cyberpunkies, mostly - GitS, Akira, those are old AF
+Kami Nana Attack on Titan uses mostly stock characters. About the only one in the who seems to break that model some is Sascha Blouse and to a lesser extent Levi Ackerman. But the three main characters are totally cliche stock.
I think the reason that this series has been such a hit is that it puts the stock characters in an unique environment and is not afraid to kill of characters. Anime use to be more willing to kill named characters. Now it feels like anime characters have plot armor like Disney characters.
Argument holds strong nonetheless.
Penguindrummer Yes Manipulating the truth is a common tactic in debates lol
It was cool to see you guys working together. I never thought I would see you and Goombah work together. I didn't even know you knew him! Cool!
I actually just started watching Lucky Star. I used to avoid watching anything without a good story, but now I realize that it really is nice to have some moe too. The term "junk food" might have a bad connotation to it, but it is a good metaphor. It's delicious, but you can't, or shouldn't make a diet out of it. You need all that good stuff like the vegetables and some meat just like you need smart plot and some action in an anime. The important thing is to have a balanced diet.
Moe is a member of the Three Stooges.
In the pic at 8:14 I'm surprised that Kyuubei, Yuno Gasai, and Angel (Kanade Tachibana) aren't there (I think, I looked for a few minutes). I think the anime from which those characters are from are pretty popular (Madoka Magica, Mirai Nikki, and Angel Beats!).
Stating two different view points is not a debate.
What's that anime with the girl with like a bandage on one of her eye?
Love Chunibyo and Other Delusions
CrayonDollar Thank you much :D
+ShadowBoy Another.
hehehe...
+Cement City Another, yup!
I see what you did there lololol
Wat
Like how she compares older anime and the new anime. Perfect on how they don't have moe back than and how we do now.
how the hell did you become a gumba again
goomba sorry
that's only on game theory
+the vertigo effect But hey, that's just a theory!, A GAME THEORY!!!!!!!!!!111111111111.
He took so much Hu-min that his human form and Goomba form just.... split off into two roads side by side!
+carcinoGeneticist H.S. nice pun
hentai master race
+Arozura Hey you pervert get out of here ;)
Altey That's why I'm here ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+Africandave nice to see one of my subs roaming around, i wish you a pervy day
this maybe a dumb question but if moe means a strong personal connection with a character does that mean goku a moe character?
+animefan 64 Such a broad definition they use lol
goku Confirmed moe character lol
Her examples of anime that haven't been affected were all past examples. Find me a new anime that doesn't have moe (more than SNK).
I feel like the anime has seasons that it goes through. In the 2000-2005's there was a huge influx of Moe anime. Now, ten years later, its flooding the market again. When it no longer becomes profitable, it'll die down.
doesn't look like that is happening anytime soon.
+Mr. Cuddles Just wait it out. In a few years people will get sick of this kind of stuff and it'll be over.
is todoroki moe bc i feel an emotional attachment to that boy
I clicked on this video assuming I'd care more
I don't
Thought I'd let you all know because I love you
+Michelle Lehto Yeah, I'm surprised that I don't, but I'm kind of bored. Moe IS junk food, we all know that. There's no twists or turns, and unless you're watching something like Madoka Magica or Corpse Party, it's entirely predictable and uninteresting, albeit cute and good for a laugh. If we want good plots and developed characters, we go watch Helsing Ultimate, Cowboy Bebop, or some other show that takes itself more seriously. Moe can't kill anime unless it is all that's being put out, which is definitely not the case. I feel like debates like these are redundant.
+ichigoeater no but it is sadly holding a vast majority of the market in a stranglehold. Leaving only a small portion of it for the quality work stuff. Just look at the quality of the past 4-5 years of anime.
How much works has been released that isn't pure copy paste or just plain cash grabb all with a big side dish of MOE cramed in compared to the "quality" work animes? :/
ichigoeater ...I just meant that I find it boring because I don't watch anime. xD
+kenji214245 Koutetsujou no Kabaneri, thank me later. We're exposed to more of the trash of the industry for sure, but it isn't like we get less good anime per year. I could name you 20 anime from the last year that didn't rely on "moe" that I enjoyed genuinely. For real, just ask and I'll pull up my a list.
Dio cat
Im curious on these 20 titles you speak of
I think i at best saw like 10 "good" animes last year :/
Not going to lie, I really missed the Goomba avatar.
This was a great discussion, loved it. Both sides made great points and was great to listen to.
It's difficult to follow this conversation. They start out by defining moe as a feeling, but for the rest of the video, moe is a type of character. It feels a little disingenuous to define it that way... It protects moe from being an overused character trope.
+Froggy711 I think what's going on is that they're defining 'moe' as a concept, then discuss how it's generally applied. I recall before hearing someone say 'moe can't be defined in english' but then it's almost always applied in a 'this is the over the top token character version of kawaii' manner, which I think the rest of the video addressed.
Moe destroys lifes!
#StandAgainstMoe2016
2017 too
I just hate how manipulative it is. Once you find out the reason why "X" anime has a lot of cute girls with different coloured hair and simplistic personalities and body types you immediately get sucked out. They are not characters. They are just walking advertisements meant to sell you merchandise. It also targets people who are at very lonely and vulnerable stages of life. Like sad, lonely and depressed guys desperate for any kind if affection. Moe sucks and it should burn in hell
I don't understand what moe is now... I thought I did.
+Combinemon in other words they are making it harder then it is moe is moe
I think the problem with the argument for the defense of moe here is that every example of a good show that is not moe-influenced is from a relatively old show (around +10 years ago). If you look at the list of anime that has come out in 2016 or even late 2015, I highly doubt you will find anything like Ghost In a Shell or Paranoia Agent (if it existed I totally missed it). But I can guarantee there's about 4+ Lucky Star/K-ON style meo animes. In fact I can name some from the current limited Crunchyroll summer 2016 roster (going by cover):
- Anne-Happy
- Crane Game Girls
- Wagamama High Spec
- Usakame
- BAKUON!!
- Pan de Peace!
- High School Fleat
- SPACE PATROL LULUCO
Again, this is by cover because I'm not interested in Moe shows. Regardless, the marketing is pretty dense in that direction. Even the good shows I can remember lately have at least one dense(KONOSUBA)/submissive(Dimension W)/scarred(ERASED) female lead that needs to be protected regularly.
What about Attack on Titan? That is not ten years old, they even used clips from it in the video.
I also feel it's horribly unfair to generalize any cute young looking character as the same, or the quite character, or the glasses character, or any character you can think of. These characters share similar traits or even designs but so do all of humanity, that's where we artists get our inspiration. There's more to all those characters outside of their base personality and that's what makes them fun. I enjoy both Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z and Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho and they are very similar.
Both are short, have spikey black hair, used to be villains, don't talk much except to insult others or boost their own ego, prideful and so on, and I am drawn to characters that share many of those qualities(It's actually surprising how many) but it's their individuality that makes them some of my favorite characters in anime. Hiei's got a sister he cares a lot about and that drives him, he was shunned as a child, he has a long friendship with another member of the cast Kurama. Vegeta had more trouble being good than Hiei did, he had a lot of relapses but eventually became a family man, his relationship with his wife and son is very touching, and while Hiei is prideful as well I've never seen any character more prideful than Vegeta.
So just because they share qualities they are different because of what environment they are in and who they interact with. Sorry I tend to go on but anime is near and dear to me so I don't like seeing it generalized like this.
Missed the Band Wagon Attack on Titan is semi-guilty of this as well. Mikasa is the quiet badass girl stereotype. The Sasha (potato girl) is the glutton stereotype. Hange the science nut with fetishist tendencies (see also Rika Shiguma from Haganai). Even if the characters can be likable they are still little more than stereotypes.
Hiei and Vegeta are the Napolean complex stereotype. The distinguishing characteristics after that are relatively thin. Vegeta treats Bulma about the same as Hiei treats his sister - detached to hide his soft side but very protective if they're threatened. The details of their arcs are different, but the arcs are identical as you said.
Same goes for the Moe show girls. The stereotypes Gumba laid out were spot-on. To get even more specific, you can tell from the character design a lot of the time how an anime girl will behave nowadays. Got pigtails? Then adorable shy loli or tsundere teen. Got ringlets? Then rich girl with the haughty laugh (with or w/o fan). Older than 17? Hot teacher that tries acts like a cougar around the MC.
This is 90% of anime now - the setting *is* the character while the characters are underdeveloped dressings to the uniqueness of the setting. In the 90s, there were cliches, but not *every* show had them. Slayers didn't have any overlap with Gundam Wing's characters which played out nothing like Tenchi Muyou's characters. They all came out the same season of the same year. There also weren't like 20 new shows every quarter.
もえ was a term for growing, like shoots in the the spring or flowers blossoming. the character (usually female) was or is suppose to grow.
I'm somewhat concerned that the examples of non-moe are actually all older shows. Some of the moe shows were older shows too, but a lot of them are newer shows. So it feels like the 'moe is ok' argument is weakened significantly, we need to look at the last season or two of Anime to establish what % was moe and what was not and revisit this.
Agreed
I agree with Gaijin on this one.
Love that one shot of Kotonoha no Niwa you added. Great film by Shinkai :)
Dude, that's not just Moe, that's also something called "Formula". That shit has destroyed everything from Westerns, to Science Fiction, to Religions.
I think Gaijin Goomba's moe argument is a big reason as to why Attack on Titan has become SOOOOO popular. AoT has come out during a time when it is hard to find anything that feels new and original in anime/manga. Now, is Aot the "most" original anime/manga? No. But it is "different" from the vast majority of anime/manga being made right now, and I think that's why people love it so much.
I am not trying to say that Aot is the best anime/manga. Nor am I trying to change the heart of the topic in this video. Am am using AoT as an example to help point out an important issue in anime/manga culture. There was a time when this massive moe culture barely existed, so it makes me wonder; would an anime like Attack on Titan be quite as popular if it had been made 10-15 years before its original release?
I kinda agree and disagree. AoT didn't feel very unique to me as a whole, very shounen/seinen. You can tell it's catering to the masses.
I'd say the concept of the show is pretty unique along with some of the circumstances that occur but character-wise...nah, felt very tropey.
I'd say for the point you're trying to make anime like Berserk, Claymore, psycho pass...etc fit a bit better. That's only my opinion though >.
That great! I'm glad you have a different opinion. As long as people are thinking about it, and want to have an intelligent discussion on the issue, then that's what matters.
I watched Psycho Pass, and I thought it was golden! You can tell by my profile picture!
+Rinoa Heartilly Agreed. It has a good premise, but I didn't feel engaged with it. I had to slog through the first season and was kind of bored. But I didn't hate it either.
On your second point, Berserk came out in 97, basically the Action-Shounen decade. Claymore was in 2007, and Psycho Pass was in 2012. They're darker/more 'adult' than other anime that came out in at the time, but Berserk seems out of place as a specific example, since Moe wasn't really big in the 90s.
Sara Baggerly I agree with you 110%. And psycho pass is awesome you have good taste, I just started watching it and its addicting xD
Ken Zhang Thanks! And yep I see where you're coming from. Regarding Moe in the 90's I think it definitely was there but it wasn't an established genre and wasn't as popular as it is now (of course). I can think of anime that had Moe characters (nadesco, ranma1/2, utena, sailormoon..etc) but not anime that purely revolves around Moe from the 90's. Berserk wasn't shounen but definitely seinen, I feel like I should've used Cowboy beebop as an example rather than Berserk lol
Does anybody know the song that plays in the background from 0:46 to 0:57 *?*
I agree with Akidearest side. Thats how I watch anime in a sense. After watching one that is dark or invokes sadness I will go watch a comedy that has a lot of Moe or fan service. Then I will go back to the other one or think of the other one with a more leveled head.
hey aki, nice shirt #niceshort
Hisssss
Hissss
if she's aki I'm a shirt
I just love the crunch
lol
As I was listening towards the end of Gaijin's argument, I had a sudden jolt on my spine when the MEMEME music video flashed in my head. Creepy stuff you got going there Goomba.
If moe is just; simply put a personal and emotional connection to a character I don't understand how that could negatively effect anime or any other form of story driven medium. And while I am not overly versed in anime, I only watch a few, I can only think of "moe" as a good thing because from a writer's standpoint isn't that what you want from your audience to become connected to your characters on a deeper level than just seeing them on a screen? If someone could please explain this a little better I would greatly appreciate it
+Otaku Strikes oh, okay, thank you for explaining it better than they did, I get it now. And yeah, I'd agree that's not great for the future of any story telling medium.
Tales Archetypes are present in any kind of story, they can be developed to be more than that. Badly used tropes isn't moe's fault, it happens to any kind of story.
"Moe" **pulls up Madoka Magica** Me:BOI YOU BETTER-
okay. i was just watching this whole video in awe... there are still other people where it counts, who - like me - look at debates from above and unbiased, before also looking at them from all sides' point of view, and THEN forming an opinion. i can see what either of you mean, and gotta say, i kinda agree with both. btw: also subbed to both
Just a personal opinion here, but i see that picture of flandre used at 1:13 way too much, kinda lost it's initial awsomeness at this point
I just watch and enjoy anime, moe or not.
that song that plays while aki is talking frag out by dj assassin all im going to say is NIGHT BLUE 3
oh you want a moe that's different!?
watch gakkou gurashi