Lion Manual Lathe, 2 Full Years of Ownership Review. The Good, Bad and Ugly
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- February 2, 2022 I took delivery of my 23MT Lion Lathe. Now after 2 full years of ownership and nearly daily use, I have some feedback.
Overall, I absolutely love the Lion Lathe. But, with anything, there are a few things to look out for. This video dives into the things I love and the very few things I don't.
Lion Lathes are made in Bulgaria by ZMM and imported and resold by International Machinery in California. They stock machines and every part imaginable. If you want more information please check out their website.
www.lionlathes.com
Topper Machine LLC is an entirely manual machine shop located in Spooner, WI. Our videos will highlight some of our shop work.
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Many years ago my work bought a product. We had issues with it, so the factory sent out their engineers to troubleshoot. Turns out they were Bulgarian and we were nothing but impressed with their knowledge, attitude, and attention to detail. Great folks. I'd buy Bulgarian equipment in a heart beat. Nice lathe!
I noticed your enjoyment when using your lathe. That speaks clearly and loudly.😀
Very nice lathe Josh.
The people that watch your channel know that you have certainly used and tested the Lion with a wide range of work and jobs.
Certainly looks like a quality Lathe.👍
European quality.
Thanks for sharing.
Have a good day.
I have a Newall C-80. I will never buy a Newall again. It’s been nothing but trouble. I have a Mitutoyo 3 axis KC counter on my milling machine.In thirty years, it has worked flawlessly..
Thank you for this video.
No machine is perfect but the Lion lathe is clearly packed full of features that make the operation of the machine easier and more productive and its obviously built to a decent quality level.
You are correct. Every machine will have some issues, but the major features overcome those few problems.
Super nice machine. Even tho it's manual, the modern manual lathes still have a more rugged and better feel over the old machines. Minus 22 on delivery day, yikes. I have several of the cheap EBAY China DRO's in my shop, very accurate with zero problems. Newall always seemed way over priced. I was waiting for the 'crack ya in the nutz' comment. 😁
We have a Lion C8M Lathe in our shop that my dad bought new back in the early 80's. We needed a lathe with metric threading but also one with a clutch. Its been an excellent machine but in the beginning, it was a disaster. When we first started the lathe we saw chips floating in the headstock sightglass. Took the top off the headstock and saw that the shifter forks were causing the gears to more than rub each other. Got a hold of Lion International, they said you buy the lathe with all faults and defects. Not a good start. So we tore down the headstock since the spindle bearings were thrashed, put in new spindle bearings and made new shifter fork to correct the overshifting problem. Since then, its been a wonerful machine to run. A real sweetie pie.
Things have really changed since then. The new lions are perfect in most every way. Now days Summit machines are like that.
A genuine review from a genuine guy.
hello Josh & it's is Randy and i like yours video is cool & Thanks Josh Friends Randy
Hi Josh,
Thank you for updating us with this two year review on your Lion lathe. Glad to know it has provided you with many hours of trouble free machining!! This is a good thing to know for your fellow followers!
The thread engagement lever is certainly a real downer as the stroke is absolutely too long. I hope the company could improve on it.
The joystick with quick traverse is on of the better features but the four inch spindle bore is sooo attractive! The thread selection capability is also second to none.
You did not talk about repeatability and hand wheel finesse.
Thank you for sharing Sir.
God Bless.
In Europe whe don’t disengage the nut will threading … we revers the spindle rotation … this is how it’s thought and how we use .
@@emilgabor88The half nut can be disengaged to save time, on Imperial or metric threads. Adam Booth demonstrated his technique on several of his videos.
@@ellieprice363 I am an engineer and have a machine shop , so I know all that stuff… in Europe we don’t do it like this . Reversing the spindle is more safe . I have crashed a couple of times because the force to disengage the half nut is very large in a big cut, and i couldn’t do it . Americans do this on old monarchs thet have max 500Rpm and thread at 150rpm
I thread 1.5mm pich at 500Rpm to obtain surface finish.
Great explanation and review!
Thank you for an honest review, your word is your contract and your viewers trust that. As usual, great content!
great content Josh.....thank you for sharing......Paul in Florida
That really is a fine machine. Glad it is holding up. Thanks for the walkthrough. Stay warm.
Great review I would love to have a lathe like that. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Thank you Josh!
My two favorite machines you have are the Lion Lathe and your saw mill. Thanks for the review.
I gotta admit, the sawmill is pretty damn cool😊
It's good you can get a new high-feature lathe that isn't CHICOM.
It’s a great looking tool tool, I bet it’s very satisfying that the purchase worked out so well!
Josh, Nice review. I agree Newhall is so problematic. We have had so many issue with Newhall and went to DRO PROS. They are located in California and are a magnetic scale like the one you mentioned from the UK. Very Very Accurate and reliable check them out!!! Good Luck and stay warm
The DROs I buy are the same basic unit as what DRO pros sell for less than half the price.
I have very little interest in a metal lathe but your video made it interesting. I will have to admit that a mini lathe would come in handy. You did a great job on the video and a great job explaining the features. I am glad that you are happy with your machine. There is nothing more frustrating than down time because the machine will not work. Thanks for the video!!!!!!
Thanks Josh, really well done review. Nice to know there still some affordable quality out there with good support.
👍👍👍👍
Josh,
As we've discussed before, I've been so jealous of this lathe since your day #1 with it.. your candid and truthful review and critique in everyday terms makes it easier for all to understand and admire. We all have our wish lists and likes and dislikes. I'd LOVE one. Its a beast for sure and handles everything you've ever asked of it. Hope to see it in person this summer some time. A 1st class machine for a 1st class shop and Master Machinist.
In the 30s here lately and rain which has almost eliminated our snow. Mild weather def saving on the heating this season so far.....plus I dont have to dress like an Eskimo for the short walk fm the house to the shop...LOL
Don
Thanks Don. It has been a great machine for sure. Looks like we're heading for mid to upper 40s next week. Almost no snow left here. That snowblower is doing an excellent job of scaring mother nature away. This is the happiest I've ever been during winter. Lol
@@TopperMachineLLC Thank you again for your anti-snow purchase and efforts!
@@funone8716 you are so welcome. I would buy another one next year if it keeps the snow away.
I have been impressed with your lathe, and it's great to hear your review. It is certainly a great machine.
Josh, You might consider putting a bend in your half-nuts lever to re-clock it to the 12 o'clock position. So it is disengaged when it is straight up, and engaged position is around maybe 3 o'clock. That way it is higher and easier to grab, and it would also avoid getting close to the number dial. I have never seen a number dial so low. Is the leadscrew that low as well ? Mechanically a leadscrew should reside as close to the bed ways as possible, to avoid undue forces trying to fight the guidance of the ways. --Doozer
I've considered a bend. I don't know that it would really help. The lead screw is high, it is geared to the dial. The rapid motor is in the way to put it higher. Some things could definitely use a redesign. I am hoping with the publicity I've given them, these things may be addressed eventually.
Josh,
Appreciate the review. I have owned this same lathe since 2020. I agree with your pros and cons. Couple of things. On the chuck guard, there is a tab that screws onto the guard that engages into the micro switch when the guard is pulled forward. I just unscrewed the tab off of the guard and stuck it in the switch. That way the machine runs regardless of the position of the guard. Second, recommend pulling the compound off periodically, especially if you are running flood coolant. Coolant and oil pools up in the cavity in the cross slide where the t- bolts mount creating a bit of a cess pool. Like you, I have been very satisfied with the lathe and yes the customer support from Johnny is 5 star. Happy machining!
I thought about doing that with the guard switch, but it's also a good safety feature. Just bump the guard and it shuts down. I'll have to remember to pull the compound. That's a great suggestion. Johnny has been great, I have nothing but good things to say about him.
it is certainly loaded with some good features and seems to be well made.
The reversing clutched spindle drive is really nice in many ways and is a two speed tailstock. I use a different brand of DRO but I have not heard much of problems with Newal. Great review!
A stand up review of a stand up product. Thanks, Josh
That is really a valuable report on the Lion and it really does sound like an excellent machine at that! I imagine the owner of the older machine you mentioned is Kyle from Vanover Customs. His old machine is beautiful and I'm sure he will love it, too. BTW, Bulgaria is a beautiful country with magnificent mountains and some of the friendliest people you can imagine. ZMM machines are highly thought of here in Europe, too. Thanks for the info, Josh.
Ran a Lion lathe the same size as yours 25 years ago. Very impressed with the quality. Should be a great work horse in your shop. Congrats ! 🎉
I have nothing but praise for machine DRO. I have their system on my mill and way outside warranty a scale became unreliable, so at one of the shows I enquired about buying a new scale and explained why. They said drop it up to them and they would have a look for me. I did this and they said it was probably only dirt but changed the read head anyway and charged me nothing. They could have sold me a new scale and I was prepared to but one but they volunteered to try to fix the old one. It was a glass scale not a magnetic but the service from them was exemplary.
I have their magnetic system to fit to my lathe, when I can get around to it, because I like the non contact system over the glass one. I can't guarantee everyone would get the same service but I would always recommend them.
Thanks for your story. They do make a great product.
Great review, Josh. Made in Bulgaria, that's very interesting. I'm glad you a big fan of a clutch drive. I'm no pro but it gives you a lot more control, expecially when creeping up towards the chuck.....Tony
Looks like one I would love. Manual machines will always be in demand. Like a Bridgeport. Great video Top. I have very few regrets with my metal madness addiction. Keep it up please. I assumed Lion was just another Taiwan brand. Made a ass of me for sure. Four inch hole in the spindle and just the length of it sold me. That saddle with the joy stick looks super useful. I got a Steady for my old lathe and can't find time to try it out. Looks like you could get your tie wrapped around the work piece when reaching to pull out or engage the Half Nut lever. Also looked like it had a long stroke. Otherwise wonderful choice. Bulgaria was an Eastern Bloc country for a time. The whole of Europe is in turmoil and I follow it on world news. Brussels is stirring up revolt that most in US ignore.
The lion(ZMM) factory has been hit hard by the war and other issues in Europe.
@@TopperMachineLLC I collect tools Recently found a nice Bison four jaw cleaned it up and made a chuck wrench. Now I plan on using it in my tailstock. First going to machine up a backplate and russle up a couple bearings. Then just buy a Mt-3 shank and Bobs your uncle. Bison Bial is the biggy in Poland. They also made the best sausage in the world in Poland. Hungary, Poland, Germany are all going back to Nationalist populist border policies. Soon I pray will the USA. Peace out at Topper Machine.
Great video thanks for sharing looks like it was well worth the investment
One of the best investments I've ever made in the shop.
Awesome machine
It seems to me you have the knowledge, materials to extend the handles and bend and extend the knuckle buster great channel 73 dan
Your flatbed truck is a Hi-Rail truck... thats awesome!
Yes it is, but it hasn't been on the rails in 4 years. Hard to justify doing a railroad job for $3-4k and potentially get $50-60k in fines from the FRA.
!!!! when you change out the DRO, add x to the tailstock. it is a game changer.
Looks like a great lathe for a serious job shop. I'm glad you like it.
Ive owned a ZMM for 20 years or more. Mine is from the Sofia factory that was not amused when ordered to make lathes but it's a heavy built machine for it's size (some dimensions are a bit odd) and I've been happy with it. I bought it used but really nothing but good to report. I did invest in a PEWE Tools multifx tool post to the tune of about the original purchase price of the machine but boy was that worth it 1
Still looks like a great machine. They all have good points and bad.
Very true. I am definitely happy with the lion.
I bought and custom installed an M DRO on my lathe based on the planer video.
Great product.
Glad you like it. I need to get a few more for my shop.
Time flys, it seems like yesterday when you bought the lathe. Thanks for the review, it sounds like it has been a great tool to have
I was surprised it's been 2 years also.
Great review, even if you don't like doing them!!! I think my favourit in this machine is the geared tailstock; it's really an underrated feature if you start thinking about it
There is so much to love about the Lion. The tailstock is just an awesome feature on top of all the other great features.
Josh you have an impressive operation. Good for you!!!! How is business ? Are you staying alive ?
The comments on the half-nut engagement lever. Here are a few thoughts only for - what they are worth. In Europe, typically, you thread without engaging and disengaging the half-nut. You engage the half-nut when you begin the thread and level them engaged until your thread is complete. You can just back your tool out and return using the clutch and reversing the machine. Many European lathes do not have threading dials because you do not need that if you remain engaged until your thread is finished. Your lathe must have a brake as well. This method might take a little strain off the constant bending towards the low half-nut lever position. It is just a different way to thread for us on this side of the pond. It is how we thread metric threads on most imperial lead screw lathes. I thread using this method and have grown to like it..
This makes complete sense. It is how I do metric, but I totally understand using this method for both ways. Here we disengage at the end of cut, never considered doing it that way. That also explains the higher speed reverse.
People do it that way here also. The problem is that the lathe has to be an inch lead screw to that with inch threads and a metric lead screw to do that with metric threads . I assume in Europe all the lathes have metric lead screws and they almost never cut metric threads?
When you first got that lathe and i saw that guard thing and i said that'll be going in a few weeks...
😐🏴🇬🇧
Interesting to hear about your Newall troubles. My Newall was trouble free for 23 years. Now I have a read head that has quit working.
I've had a few over the years that were all just problems. There are things about them I liked, but with what this one has cost me, I'm done.
Bit worrying as I just bought one for my Bridgport, maybe I should have bought the M DRO.
@@dutchgray86 if it's not too late, send it back. Get the M DRO
@@TopperMachineLLC Fitted it end of last year, it does seem to work fine, time will tell though.
Oh, and I totally ripped off your coolant hose extension idea. 😊 works great.
Glad it worked for you. I could still use some more length.
Heh. Couldn’t we all? 😁
Beautiful lathe! Indeed, Lion appears to make a quality lathe with all the best features as you stated. I didn't see or understand what swing and center to center dimensions this model has. C11MTM103, Metric Centimeters?
Coincidently, Vancouver Customs released his video on his Lion Lathe this morning. Though his is an older model than yours, both Lion Lathes are very impressive.
I'd buy a Eastern European product over any Communist China product today. Maybe the Bulgarians are shorter people, hence the oddly low position of the Half Nut lever ?
Kyle bought his lion based on my recommendation. He got a great machine for what he paid for it.
I'm surprised you didnt bring up the oil fill and drainage ports as a negative as they're in an awkward spot that make changing the oil a messy situation to say the least lol.
Enjoyed the video as always. 👍👍
I had since fixed that minor issue. It's a common problem with everything nowadays. Nothing is engineered for maintenance. Overall, the drain problem was a super simple fix and doesn't bother me at all.
With a lathe with so many features, there'd have to be a couple of things that are inconvenient. But that DRO sounds like a piece of junk with it failing so many times. Switching it out to the reliable brand at the end of the warranty will fix that issue.
Interesting about the DRO. My "bridgeport" came with a Newall. It may even be the same head unit. I haven't really had any problems with it other than the fact that it seems like no one else's DROs can "read" Sypherosyn and they're REALLY expensive. I would love to convert it to a "4-axis" where it tracks quill and knee but to do so with Newall encoders and new display would cost more than the mill.
They really are overpriced. I have had so many problems with this one that I'll definitely not get another.
Nice.
Johnny is your salesman, we are your subs. It would be nice to know what they cost during a review video.
Per Johnny's request I didn't include the price. Call him for current pricing.
2 years, that's astonishing, I would've guessed at 6 or 8 months Josh.
Great review, and detailed controls, yes I also favour the clutch on spindle drive. Most of the production lathes I served part of my apprenticeship on had rear swarf / chip tray, the shop hand could empty this without stopping the machinist.
Could you add a parallel linkage to raise the half-nut lever?
Thanks for sharing
The past 2 years flew by. Definitely glad I bought this lathe.
I think I'd bend that lever up rather than out.. if that is feasible... 🤔
Is the spindle bore tapered ?, if not what do you do for turning b/c's ... turn up a centre for the 3 jaw ??
The machine itself seems a tad low, but that may just be the camera...
Is their a copying attachment available ?
Yeah, the headstock guard is okay, yer not gonna leave the key in the chuck , thats for sure... not that I've ever done that myself...🙄😂
Did you get a faceplate ?, I missed if you mentioned it...
Great review !!
😎👍☘️🍺
This must be the only machine you've bought new, as you seem to mostly buy old machines that are pretty much indestructible. I've heard of horror stories of brand new equipment that was broken down more often than it was working. You sure picked a good one with the Lion.
I did a lot of research before buying the lion. Definitely was a good choice.
What are the benefits of a clutched headstock? I only ever used VFD machines or "direct-drive" ones. Does the spindle stop/rev up faster?
So many benefits. Biggest one is the ability to feather the clutch and slowly bring it up to speed. No snapping to speed when you don't want it. Especially important when light chucking on soft materials. Another one is your electric bill. The motor runs constantly, only one time of inrush current to start it. This lathe is 15HP, that would kill me on electric if it wasn't clutched. The boring mill is 20HP without a clutch. It costs me about $1.00 every time I start that spindle.
@@TopperMachineLLC That makes sense, thanks!
Plus you can go from forward to reverse very quickly, very useful for power tapping, or single point thread cutting an odd thread pitch when you can't disengage the half nut, or if you're using a rear mount parting blade (the correct way up).
Once you have used a clutch drive lathe you really would not want to be without one.
It also gives the motor starting gear an easy life as it almost always started with minimal load and actual number of motor starts is much lower.
Did you make a vid of how you got that monster off the trailer and installed in the shop....???
I didn't. I had to get it off and installed fast and didn't want to spend the time playing with the camera.
I was a bit sad to hear about the Newall. I had thought they were supposed to be a top quality product. I have some magnetic scale DRO’s very similar to the ones you use, and they are super easy to install - dead accurate as well. I have performed capability studies on them.
I used to think Newall made a good unit. This one has been nothing but trouble. Quite disappointing for the money.
@@TopperMachineLLCnewall did make a great DRO, sadly sounds like that's past tense. The one on my Cincy is from the early 90s and came with the machine when I bought it. Never touched the thing.
I've had good luck with the cheap Chinese DROs in recent years
@@TopperMachineLLCHello Josh, At the gas turbine overhaul shop I used to work at the older machines had 1980's vintage Newall, Sony and Mitutoyo read outs on them. They all seemed good except some suffered from mechanical damage (not the read outs fault). When I worked there (late 90's early 2000's) the company was expanding like crazy and had bought many new conventional machines and most came with Mitutoyo read outs on them and they were flawless. For that reason I went with Mitutoyo when I bought my first read outs and have only ever used them. In 2003 I bought a brand new Bridgeport clone and put three axis Mitutoyo read outs on it myself. I guarded them well and to this day I have not had one problem with them. Last summer I put 4 axis Mitutoyo readouts on my HBM (4 scales, 2 heads) and it was interesting that all the components were cheaper in 2023 than they were in 2003, yet I suspect the quality of the new ones is as good or better than the 2003 ones. I just hope the popularity of cheap chinese read outs doesn't cause Mitutoyo to cut corners in the future. Ken
I have a Newall NMS800 on my new lathe - seems like a good unit - haven't had any trouble with it but I'm not running day in day out. Hopefully it stays good because I like it so far. My magnetic strip DRO's (DRO PROs / Electronica) have been excellent.
Great review. What Newall model DRO do you have? Looks like a DP700
It is a DP700
@@TopperMachineLLC we just got DP700’s on 3 lathes and 2 mills. Anything to watch out for?
@@brandontscheschlog the problems I've been seeing is failure of the reader heads and one scale. They just failed with no warning. Newall told me it just happens. I've not had a problem with the display, yet.
@@TopperMachineLLC thanks for the warning.
If you mean lathe prices always go up when you say fluctuate, then you're right.
The last few years there has been no fluctuation with pricing on anything. It just goes up and up.
nice lathe
Thanks 👍
Has it stayed level? I remember when you got it and did the leveling.
It has been surprisingly good on level. I generally check every 6 months or so.
My buddy sells and installs Newall DRO's, he told me not to buy a Newall DRO, so I bought an Acu-rite for the mill. I'm committed to buying one for the lathe this year, could you elaborate a little on the Machine DRO you referred to? Thanks.
M-DRO is in the UK. I have a link to their website on my older video of installing one on my planer mill. DRO pros sell one similar for twice the price.
@@TopperMachineLLC Thank you, I'll have a look!
THANKS ~ I KNOW ~ THE MASTERFUL INFO THAT YOU HAVE SHARD CAN SAVE ONE A TON OF RESEARCH $$$ AN TON OF $$$ VIA OPERATIONS PROCEDURES !!!
That is a hell of a lot of machine. The full range thread gearing in the head is excellent. Does the thread dial work for both inch and metric? What coolant do you run if you don’t mind sharing that.
You still need to reverse out on metric threads, but it has gotten way easier with experience. I haven't even had a need to come close to using 5% of the threading capabilities of the lion, but it is sure nice knowing I have it.
Same as the summit
Not even close to a summit. It may have similar features but there is no comparison in quality and workmanship
I'll never understand why everyone is hiding the price.
Regarding the low position of the feed engagement lever, could you add a lever in a better spot and just connect it with a short piece of linkage to the existing one?
I would have to investigate that possibly. But it's a great suggestion.
hmmm you really should get a new mill
It's on the list. Don't worry, you're my first call when I do.
That thread dial is silly in it's placement. Way too low. I wear glasses that only give me limited focal range and I would have to bend down a lot to read the dial.
I do agree it is a bit terrible, but overall I love the machine. And it is a far superior product to anything that comes out of China or Taiwan.
now all I have to do is get better at buying my Powerball ticket.
Me too. But mostly just better at winning it. Lol
Yes all European guys knows that European lathes are better then American lathes 🤣🤣🤣 the joysticks it’s a must to work fast , I also have one whit joystick . 105mm bore(4inch) is grate . I have it also on a lathe (not that white the joystick)
In Europe , we don’t disengage will theading so we turn the spindle rotation , that is why almost all machine have clutches. Almost all European lathes can cut metric and imperial whit out change any gears… My compilations are whit industrial medium sized lathes … the clutch doesn’t need any adjustment in like 10 years. So no problem whit that .
Being the first European lathe I've run, I'd say you guys got it right. Changing spindle rotation makes sense as to the location of the half nut lever. Also explains why reverse is faster.
@@TopperMachineLLC be aware that I have crashed my lathes will trying to disengage will threading . I don’t know if in Europe use other ratio at the lever but in a big cut I could not open the half nuts because the tension . Maybe our lathes at not designed for this …
@@emilgabor88 I haven't had an issue. Crashed one time into a shoulder, running too fast on a 2"-4.5. Shoulder just came up too fast, my fault. I don't think I've ever had a problem disengaging the lion.