Great explanation. What makes your videos so interesting is the story telling and the way you make technical stuff easy to understand for non technical people. Thank you!
It sounds to me that DoP is a encapsulated DSD stream with the capsule containing some metadata to describe its contents. Encapsulation a common universal technique.
There really shouldn't be issues as far as timing, the "extraction" basically just involves ignoring the first few bits of the "PCM" signal, and everything the DAC actually reads should be the same as a DSD file. The main issue is that it requires a higher bit rate from your DAC since it's sending some extra data that gets ignored, so if you DAC only supports up to DSD512, you'll only be able to use DSD256 or lower over DoP, and you'd need native DSD to enable DSD512. But as others and myself have mentioned, it's actually possible to get native DSD playback on Windows, Mac, Linux, and even on your smartphone, both Android and iOS.
I wonder can I still enjoy DSD audio on my Meridian system, which only acceps PCM and not DSD in their DAC ? Would then perhaps DoP using Audirvana on my MacMini streamer be a solution for me.. ?
FWIW I can play, record, encode and decode, set parameters of, "pure" DSD files on my Linux ( Red Hat ) platform all day long. That using the ffmpeg software. ffmpeg is an open sourced application that runs on most Operating Systems including Windows. Now the ability to do that is relatively recent, in the last 5-years or so, so Pauls information may need to be updated.
@@Oleg-oe1rc Not surprising. ffmpeg, because it’s open sourced, is used all or in part in literally 1000’s and 1000’s of applications. I’m told it’s the core code for MicroSoft’s Media Player. Red Camera, a professional cinema camera company, uses code from ffmpeg in its cameras. Therefore ffmpeg supports Red Raw files. ffmpeg is everywhere, there is no reason to re-invent the wheel. Just pick the code you want out of there, put a pretty video editing application face on it, and sell licenses for $200/yr. Perfectly fine. They do ask that you contribute back something to the ffmpeg Community in the way of money, or code of your own. Likely Pauls editing software uses ffmpeg code in it.
Do entry level players like Sony's A-series Walkman use DoP or do they convert DSD to PCM before playback? Without DSD Native playback, will DSD files retain their advantages in such players? Anyone? Thank you.
Wow - awesome. This is very much like when IP was first coming on the scene. Telecommunication carriers encapsulated the IP packets into their ATM and Frame Relay - Frame based networks.
Hi Paul, Greetings from Cremona Italy, the home of Stradivari's violins ! We enjoy your daily show every night which gives our hi-res family much pleasure and fun :-) On the subject here - can you confirm that DoP is a **transport method** only rather than a **DA conversion method** ? Reason we ask is that we are often asked on AVR's capability to convert pure DSD while in reality they provide max PCM-to-Analogue final conversion from multichannel/stereo DSD sources to preamp stage, including top of the line Marantz, Denon's, etc.. Apparently the list of pure DSD capable AVR's is really limited to very few brands like Sony and Onkyo. Can you shed more light ? What is PSAudio take on this ? Grazie 10.000! All the best and stay safe ! - Gianluca.
It is simply a way of disguising DSD as PCM to get it out of a computer, it is not a conversion of any kind. Most AVR's and Blu-ray/DVD players do not play native DSD but convert it to PCM before conversion to the analogue signal.
@@angelwars3176 exactly - which creates even further confusion/disappointments to the enthusiasts and buyers. On the few devices that do DSD-to-Analogue conversion instead you can a/b the DSD-to-PCM-to-Analogue vs DSD-to-Analogue and evaluate the difference. And yet the most established brands sell and advertise DSD while in reality the are delivering 44.1 PCM multipliers - which is sad.
@@hiresdigital i totally agree. Often manufacturers say the device 'supports DSD' when it infact converts - you have to research carefully. With all AVR audio based stuff being essentially PCM 48 ratio for DVD video/audio, Blu Ray it makes no real sense to accomodate DSD except for SACD playback. Most decent two channel DAC's will support native DSD playback but only a couple of very expensive multi channel will.
Because DSD isn't digital in the sense that PCM is and pro tools and in fact pretty much the whole digital audio environment is geared to PCM production and distribution.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio yeah but you could take the industry by storm though if you could prove it's better to all the recording snobs out there. A PS Audio DoP Digital Audio Workstation.. cmon, someone!!
@@Eric_DiRisio DAW's can't be used with DSD because it isn't digital - see my posts above. Paul is working with Gus Skinnas and his Sonoma system that has limited ability to mix and edit DSD without conversion to PCM digital.
Marantz does their own version of a 1-bit DAC ln their current flagship SA-10S1 CD/SACD and USB player using 2 SHARC DSPs and a CPLD in circuitry co-designed by Rainer Finck, who was part of the original Phillips bitstream team. The Ken Ishiwata finessed SA-KI Ruby player also uses this technology. Specific refutation that the DACs and outpit stages of all CD[/SACD] players suck. Sorry Paul, but you don't get off so easily for that outburst 2 days ago.
@@stephensmith3111 I have this DAC. which is based on 2 pcs. TDA1305. amazing sound! Go to the internet address at the bottom. You can buy an edition with box. I have a denon DCD-3300 classic flagship cd player. The TDA1305 has very similar sound as the denon. m.aliexpress.com/item/32830869745.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail
@@ford1546 Our first CD player was a Denon (I forget the model number) which we purchased in 1978 or '79. I don't know which DAC chip set it used, but I know that it did have a slow roll-off minimum phase filter. My late wife and I were in agreement that it was definitely the best sounding unit of 5 in it's middle price range that we were able to audition in our area (although she was not an audiophile, her professionally trained ears as a speech/language pathologist and also an amateur pianist were more golden than mine).
You can have native DSD on Windows, Mac, and Linux, you just need to download and setup the appropriate plugins and drivers for your music software. Can take take some fiddling, and DoP works with a bit less setup effort, but it can and has been done, inlcuding on my own system. DoP also requires a higher bitrate, so playing higher resolution DSD files with a certain DAC will only work in native DSD. Can even be done with ease on your phone with HiBy music by changing DoP to DSD and giving the app exclusive control of the usb DAC.
For anyone curious, with foobar2000, you just need the ASIO plugin and DSD transcoder plugin, run DSD>ASIO>DSD Transcoder, and setup DSD transcoder to use native DSD instead of DoP for the bitrates you want.
Can I PLEASE suggest you visiting nativeDSD.com FAQ's section for an accurate description of what DSD actually is (no I'm not affiliated to them in any way). If you can understand that DSD is NOT actually digital in the sense of PCM; i.e it's just 0's and 1's bits 'mirroring' in density the captured analogue signal not digital value words as with PCM all becomes clear as to why you can't mix it digitally and why you can't just stream it out of computers without disguising it. It also may help clarify why certain people prefer recording in it despite the hassle. Cheers.
Angelwars I had a big discussion with an engineer about whether Class D amplifiers are digital or not. The bottom line is that Class D amps are more properly named Binary amplifiers. The same is true with DSD, although Sony and Phillips used the term digital in the name. Since I doubt that binary will catch on, I think that it’s better to call DSD and Class D digital than analog as it better represents the operation of the circuitry or signal.
@@StewartMarkley that's really interesting thanks for that. I'm slightly playing devils advocat because i'm constantly trying to point out that PCM and PDM are very different in their methods of capturing the audio signal. From a dictionary point of view PCM is 100% digital but DSD can be argued as analogue on the basis of it mirroring a changing signal level simply with differing densities of 'binary' digits. The bits do not represent definite value samples of the signal as they do in PCM.
Angelwars Yup, that was the contention of the engineer I talked with. But as I see it even DSD is more like digital than analog as it sort of breaks the continuous signal into binary bits similar to sampling with PCM. Any deviation in amplitude within a bit time is lost, however insignificant as the bit rate is so high. I don’t think anything that samples a waveform is really analog.
@@StewartMarkley Important point I keep emphasising is that DSD 1bit PDM does not involve sampling it is the modulation of a bit carrier stream running at very high speed (and arguably higher the better if the 'system' can deal with it properly). I agree it's still breaking up a continuous signal however slightly but isn't that like 35mm cine film? i.e it's separate frames running so fast it appears to us as continuous and that is most certainly not digital.
@@angelwars3176 Technically you are right, but I think that breaking a continuous signal into discrete bits representing an increase or decrease of amplitude is more like a digital or binary process if you will than an analog process.
Not sure if others are with me, but I have yet to hear a significant difference between high res 24bit/192kHz and DSD. I prefer both of these to 16bit/44.1kHz, but honestly, I am happy with music in either format.
I just discovered your channel does 4K resolution. Now I can get super high-resolution HiFI advice! Also, you look glorious in 4K (totally not creepy). Enjoy your videos, especially now in this time of social distancing.
Sounds like a nightmare! Why keep trying all those different concepts and further confuse the user / consumer? We all have stacks of 'normal' PCM CD collections that, if well recorded, sound superb. Are we expected to outlay extra funds again and get all these music collections in DSD? Thanks, but no, thanks!
Yes. For me anyway. I sold off my Vinyl Collection a few years but first heard DSD (Sony SACD) 20 years ago and was blown away. Say there's no difference but I can hear it.
DSD has no future as a distribution format for audio due to many reasons. DoP is needed because nobody cares to integrate actual DSD in any modern computing device operating system. Sending DSD pretending to be PCM only works when your operating system doesn't start attempting to do any bit altering processing on it e.g. involving EQ, gain control, mixing or sample rate conversion. From an audio fidelity perspective, DSD is sort of not making sense if the music production process involved any mixer (what music is made without a mixer???). You can't mix DSD natively...and any mixing of a DSD source will have to be done either in analog or in PCM. Analog mixing of DSD means you have already lost the bit perfect integrity of the DSD output of your microphones having to go through multiple stages of digital to analog and analog to digital conversion. Digital mixing of DSD means you have to rely on some DXD (PCM) format making your DSD a replica of a high quality PCM source. So why is DSD still able to convince people? The reason is much more about passionate people ensuring the best of audio fidelity rather than some over-compressed garbage. I'm sure DSD by PS Audio sounds great because those guys go the extra length for making awesome sound.
Dsd for me as a consumer that dont care about mixing or anything else but to play it is a very viable format. I understand when you want to edit sound or mix its not a good idea but yeah me personally like dsd and will continue to support artist/record companies that produces dsd until there is a better version to my ears. Flac had its day (up to now) but I believe that dsd should be an option for consumers.
Just another youtube user...DSD is transcoded PCM (usually DXD) or re-converted mixed analog. I would rather like to get the bit perfect DXD audio itself, and since it’s PCM, I would not need any fakery pretending to be PCM approach in the audio pipeline. If you like DSD it’s because the music was mastered well and will sound equally great on a high res PCM FLAC file.
Native DSD can already be done on Windows, Mac, and Linux, you just need the correct drivers and plugins for your music player. DoP is just easier to setup. With foobar2000 for example, you just need the DSD transcoder plugin intop of the ASIO plugin, run DSD>ASIO>DSD Transcoder, and setup DSD transcoder to output only native DSD.
Hell, I can even play native DSD on my phone without much of any setup with HiBy music, just change DoP setting to DSD and give the app exlcusive control over the usb DAC.
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](/img/n.gif)
Great explanation. What makes your videos so interesting is the story telling and the way you make technical stuff easy to understand for non technical people. Thank you!
Thanks! Glad you enjoy them.
Holy schnikey! Finally some info on digital music delivery I can understand! Thanks, Paul.
DoP was new for me. Never heard about it earlier.
Hi Paul, I've been binging on your videos all afternoon and I learn something new from each one. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
At last, the straight dope on DoP!!
Thanks for the good explanation, Paul!
That's a great explanation, I was quite confused by this topic a while back.
It sounds to me that DoP is a encapsulated DSD stream with the capsule containing some metadata to describe its contents.
Encapsulation a common universal technique.
Is there any evidence of missed timing due to the " extraction " process ?
There really shouldn't be issues as far as timing, the "extraction" basically just involves ignoring the first few bits of the "PCM" signal, and everything the DAC actually reads should be the same as a DSD file. The main issue is that it requires a higher bit rate from your DAC since it's sending some extra data that gets ignored, so if you DAC only supports up to DSD512, you'll only be able to use DSD256 or lower over DoP, and you'd need native DSD to enable DSD512. But as others and myself have mentioned, it's actually possible to get native DSD playback on Windows, Mac, Linux, and even on your smartphone, both Android and iOS.
I wonder can I still enjoy DSD audio on my Meridian system, which only acceps PCM and not DSD in their DAC ?
Would then perhaps DoP using Audirvana on my MacMini streamer be a solution for me.. ?
That explanation was increadable
FWIW I can play, record, encode and decode, set parameters of, "pure" DSD files on my Linux ( Red Hat ) platform all day long. That using the ffmpeg software. ffmpeg is an open sourced application that runs on most Operating Systems including Windows.
Now the ability to do that is relatively recent, in the last 5-years or so, so Pauls information may need to be updated.
www.ffmpeg.org/
He may be confusting DoP used as a "container"
Can be done in Foobar2000 aswell, just requires a bit more fiddling than the basic DoP setup. And on your phone with HiBy music.
@@Oleg-oe1rc Not surprising. ffmpeg, because it’s open sourced, is used all or in part in literally 1000’s and 1000’s of applications. I’m told it’s the core code for MicroSoft’s Media Player. Red Camera, a professional cinema camera company, uses code from ffmpeg in its cameras. Therefore ffmpeg supports Red Raw files.
ffmpeg is everywhere, there is no reason to re-invent the wheel. Just pick the code you want out of there, put a pretty video editing application face on it, and sell licenses for $200/yr. Perfectly fine. They do ask that you contribute back something to the ffmpeg Community in the way of money, or code of your own.
Likely Pauls editing software uses ffmpeg code in it.
Do entry level players like Sony's A-series Walkman use DoP or do they convert DSD to PCM before playback? Without DSD Native playback, will DSD files retain their advantages in such players? Anyone? Thank you.
Excellent - thanks for the explanation!
That was great! Thanks, Paul.
Wow - awesome. This is very much like when IP was first coming on the scene. Telecommunication carriers encapsulated the IP packets into their ATM and Frame Relay - Frame based networks.
Hi Paul, Greetings from Cremona Italy, the home of Stradivari's violins ! We enjoy your daily show every night which gives our hi-res family much pleasure and fun :-) On the subject here - can you confirm that DoP is a **transport method** only rather than a **DA conversion method** ? Reason we ask is that we are often asked on AVR's capability to convert pure DSD while in reality they provide max PCM-to-Analogue final conversion from multichannel/stereo DSD sources to preamp stage, including top of the line Marantz, Denon's, etc.. Apparently the list of pure DSD capable AVR's is really limited to very few brands like Sony and Onkyo. Can you shed more light ? What is PSAudio take on this ? Grazie 10.000! All the best and stay safe ! - Gianluca.
It is simply a way of disguising DSD as PCM to get it out of a computer, it is not a conversion of any kind. Most AVR's and Blu-ray/DVD players do not play native DSD but convert it to PCM before conversion to the analogue signal.
@@angelwars3176 exactly - which creates even further confusion/disappointments to the enthusiasts and buyers. On the few devices that do DSD-to-Analogue conversion instead you can a/b the DSD-to-PCM-to-Analogue vs DSD-to-Analogue and evaluate the difference. And yet the most established brands sell and advertise DSD while in reality the are delivering 44.1 PCM multipliers - which is sad.
@@hiresdigital i totally agree. Often manufacturers say the device 'supports DSD' when it infact converts - you have to research carefully. With all AVR audio based stuff being essentially PCM 48 ratio for DVD video/audio, Blu Ray it makes no real sense to accomodate DSD except for SACD playback. Most decent two channel DAC's will support native DSD playback but only a couple of very expensive multi channel will.
FINALLY... someone correctly used _ACRONYM_
an abbreviation which can be pronounced as a word.
why isn't more music recorded in DSD/DoP then? why isn't Avid Pro Tools or Apple and Logic on the forefront of something like this?
Because it's harder and most people using it don't care.
Because DSD isn't digital in the sense that PCM is and pro tools and in fact pretty much the whole digital audio environment is geared to PCM production and distribution.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio yeah but you could take the industry by storm though if you could prove it's better to all the recording snobs out there. A PS Audio DoP Digital Audio Workstation.. cmon, someone!!
@@Eric_DiRisio DAW's can't be used with DSD because it isn't digital - see my posts above. Paul is working with Gus Skinnas and his Sonoma system that has limited ability to mix and edit DSD without conversion to PCM digital.
I like philips bitstream dac. which is 1 bit dac. which is based on philips TDA1305 dac ic. The sound is very good. Does anyone else means it?
Marantz does their own version of a 1-bit DAC ln their current flagship SA-10S1 CD/SACD and USB player using 2 SHARC DSPs and a CPLD in circuitry co-designed by Rainer Finck, who was part of the original Phillips bitstream team. The Ken Ishiwata finessed SA-KI Ruby player also uses this technology. Specific refutation that the DACs and outpit stages of all CD[/SACD] players suck. Sorry Paul, but you don't get off so easily for that outburst 2 days ago.
@@stephensmith3111 I have this DAC. which is based on 2 pcs. TDA1305. amazing sound!
Go to the internet address at the bottom.
You can buy an edition with box.
I have a denon DCD-3300 classic flagship cd player.
The TDA1305 has very similar sound as the denon.
m.aliexpress.com/item/32830869745.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail
@@ford1546 Our first CD player was a Denon (I forget the model number) which we purchased in 1978 or '79. I don't know which DAC chip set it used, but I know that it did have a slow roll-off minimum phase filter. My late wife and I were in agreement that it was definitely the best sounding unit of 5 in it's middle price range that we were able to audition in our area (although she was not an audiophile, her professionally trained ears as a speech/language pathologist and also an amateur pianist were more golden than mine).
@Fat Rat Rest in peace, Ken Ishiwata. You done good.
You make the DAC sound like an audio drug addict just waiting to purify the DoP into pure DSD to get its' high LLOL
Arerrrgh another format???
Holy Louie Louie Batman!
You can have native DSD on Windows, Mac, and Linux, you just need to download and setup the appropriate plugins and drivers for your music software. Can take take some fiddling, and DoP works with a bit less setup effort, but it can and has been done, inlcuding on my own system. DoP also requires a higher bitrate, so playing higher resolution DSD files with a certain DAC will only work in native DSD. Can even be done with ease on your phone with HiBy music by changing DoP to DSD and giving the app exclusive control of the usb DAC.
For anyone curious, with foobar2000, you just need the ASIO plugin and DSD transcoder plugin, run DSD>ASIO>DSD Transcoder, and setup DSD transcoder to use native DSD instead of DoP for the bitrates you want.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Sonoma is PCM that outputs DSD. And why convert it: if it’s already PCM just use that.
It's always the same three or four commenters bent on proving him wrong. I wonder why?
Can I PLEASE suggest you visiting nativeDSD.com FAQ's section for an accurate description of what DSD actually is (no I'm not affiliated to them in any way). If you can understand that DSD is NOT actually digital in the sense of PCM; i.e it's just 0's and 1's bits 'mirroring' in density the captured analogue signal not digital value words as with PCM all becomes clear as to why you can't mix it digitally and why you can't just stream it out of computers without disguising it. It also may help clarify why certain people prefer recording in it despite the hassle. Cheers.
Angelwars I had a big discussion with an engineer about whether Class D amplifiers are digital or not. The bottom line is that Class D amps are more properly named Binary amplifiers. The same is true with DSD, although Sony and Phillips used the term digital in the name. Since I doubt that binary will catch on, I think that it’s better to call DSD and Class D digital than analog as it better represents the operation of the circuitry or signal.
@@StewartMarkley that's really interesting thanks for that. I'm slightly playing devils advocat because i'm constantly trying to point out that PCM and PDM are very different in their methods of capturing the audio signal. From a dictionary point of view PCM is 100% digital but DSD can be argued as analogue on the basis of it mirroring a changing signal level simply with differing densities of 'binary' digits. The bits do not represent definite value samples of the signal as they do in PCM.
Angelwars Yup, that was the contention of the engineer I talked with. But as I see it even DSD is more like digital than analog as it sort of breaks the continuous signal into binary bits similar to sampling with PCM. Any deviation in amplitude within a bit time is lost, however insignificant as the bit rate is so high. I don’t think anything that samples a waveform is really analog.
@@StewartMarkley Important point I keep emphasising is that DSD 1bit PDM does not involve sampling it is the modulation of a bit carrier stream running at very high speed (and arguably higher the better if the 'system' can deal with it properly). I agree it's still breaking up a continuous signal however slightly but isn't that like 35mm cine film? i.e it's separate frames running so fast it appears to us as continuous and that is most certainly not digital.
@@angelwars3176 Technically you are right, but I think that breaking a continuous signal into discrete bits representing an increase or decrease of amplitude is more like a digital or binary process if you will than an analog process.
Never heard of this before.
Sounds more like a hair-BRAINED product than a hair product.
Not sure if others are with me, but I have yet to hear a significant difference between high res 24bit/192kHz and DSD. I prefer both of these to 16bit/44.1kHz, but honestly, I am happy with music in either format.
I just discovered your channel does 4K resolution. Now I can get super high-resolution HiFI advice! Also, you look glorious in 4K (totally not creepy). Enjoy your videos, especially now in this time of social distancing.
@Cybermojoman Whatever it is, that power is supplied by a PS Audio Power Plant.
Sounds like a nightmare!
Why keep trying all those different concepts and further confuse the user / consumer?
We all have stacks of 'normal' PCM CD collections that, if well recorded, sound superb. Are we expected to outlay extra funds again and get all these music collections in DSD?
Thanks, but no, thanks!
Acronym?? Sounds like an initialism made up from two initialisms.
So: DSD is digital Vinyl.
Yes. For me anyway. I sold off my Vinyl Collection a few years but first heard DSD (Sony SACD) 20 years ago and was blown away. Say there's no difference but I can hear it.
Cool. Thanks, Paul.
DSD has no future as a distribution format for audio due to many reasons. DoP is needed because nobody cares to integrate actual DSD in any modern computing device operating system. Sending DSD pretending to be PCM only works when your operating system doesn't start attempting to do any bit altering processing on it e.g. involving EQ, gain control, mixing or sample rate conversion. From an audio fidelity perspective, DSD is sort of not making sense if the music production process involved any mixer (what music is made without a mixer???). You can't mix DSD natively...and any mixing of a DSD source will have to be done either in analog or in PCM. Analog mixing of DSD means you have already lost the bit perfect integrity of the DSD output of your microphones having to go through multiple stages of digital to analog and analog to digital conversion. Digital mixing of DSD means you have to rely on some DXD (PCM) format making your DSD a replica of a high quality PCM source. So why is DSD still able to convince people? The reason is much more about passionate people ensuring the best of audio fidelity rather than some over-compressed garbage. I'm sure DSD by PS Audio sounds great because those guys go the extra length for making awesome sound.
Dsd for me as a consumer that dont care about mixing or anything else but to play it is a very viable format. I understand when you want to edit sound or mix its not a good idea but yeah me personally like dsd and will continue to support artist/record companies that produces dsd until there is a better version to my ears.
Flac had its day (up to now) but I believe that dsd should be an option for consumers.
Just another youtube user...DSD is transcoded PCM (usually DXD) or re-converted mixed analog. I would rather like to get the bit perfect DXD audio itself, and since it’s PCM, I would not need any fakery pretending to be PCM approach in the audio pipeline. If you like DSD it’s because the music was mastered well and will sound equally great on a high res PCM FLAC file.
@@ThinkingBetter this is what you're thinking. Let's live it like that.
Native DSD can already be done on Windows, Mac, and Linux, you just need the correct drivers and plugins for your music player. DoP is just easier to setup.
With foobar2000 for example, you just need the DSD transcoder plugin intop of the ASIO plugin, run DSD>ASIO>DSD Transcoder, and setup DSD transcoder to output only native DSD.
Hell, I can even play native DSD on my phone without much of any setup with HiBy music, just change DoP setting to DSD and give the app exlcusive control over the usb DAC.
Number 1
Not in my book!