Your Oven is a Liar! Perfect your roast with surface temperature cooking.
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- Опубліковано 14 лют 2021
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Learn more about the Predictive Thermometer
combustion.inc
Surface temperature cooking is a simple technique to control the true cooking temperature of your oven (or barbecue smoker). It's an easy way to do low-temperature roasting and get perfect food, every time.
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James Hoffman sent me here, looking forward to your videos!
Well, I think I'll owe James a very nice dinner the next time I'm in London. Thanks for checking it out.
@@ChrisYoungCooks great video, and the Twitter thread that described it earlier. I’m very much a gadget person, and love the science and better understanding. Any smart ovens out there that can be programmed for this method? I dig my sousvide, but it’s got certain limitations.
@@JoshRzepkaMusic working on something along these lines. Agree that most appliances could be a bit smarter.
I hope it goes viral, lol, literally nobody ever talked about it and every entry+ level cook will benefit from it greatly
This is great! Chefsteps sent me here.
Amazing how a simple but precise measurement device can improve the results even with a simple oven so much!
This is great. Great explanation of wet bulb temperature and how it actually affects cooking. Keep the content coming!
Great video! Hope this is the start of many more to come!
Makes sense, Chris. We use this same method for reverse searing. 225F until internal reaches, say 135F. What I like about your approach is that it saves time getting the surface temp up quickly.
Well-done (the video)! Congrats on starting your YT channel. Best wishes on all your next steps, Chris!
I am so happy to see this! Big fan of your work Chris. Looking forward to more videos!!
🙏
Excited to see what you're going to do Chris!
This is an excellent technique! It makes a lot of sense. I'll try it this week.
Long time fan of your work Chris, inspired me so much in my cooking experiments at home ... look forward to more videos :)
🙏
Nice video. Gotta love those Thermoworks modular thermocouple units.
What an eye opener. Thank you James Hoffman for directing me here!🍻
Great Video Chris ! Looking forward to more
Thanks Sumeet!
Love the content!
Technique works great on air fryers too!
He’s back! Very cool stuff, Chris. We look forward to whatever you have planned! (I was sub 509, btw. I’m calling a few weeks for you to hit 25k.)
Okay, the two-thermometer method is pretty next-level; just came from your sous vide vs. reverse sear video and this method practically eliminates the 'thermal gradient' issue.
Great technique!
Great idea & video, thanks Chris! Will give it a go next roast.
Cool. Let me know how it turns out for you.
Looking forward to checking out your new thermometer Chris!
Thank you! I think you'll like it.
Interesting cant wait to learn more
Well done!
I’ll be trying this out for the next roast, thanks!
Let me know how it goes. Please be aware, cooking at a low-temperature like this adds a lot to the cooking time.
Excellent. Thank you. 😊
Chefsteps sent me here! Subbed!
i love you and chefsteps 👌👌👌👌👌
Looks good
Strong first video! 👍
Than you
James advised me of you channel. Mum when cooking beef used a roasting tin. Covered to start then towards the end with the cover removed. I am wondering if this had keep the liquid steaming the meat first then the roasting. Can’t remember times to weight ratios because it was over 40 years since I had one of her roasts
Cool technique, and great video. I do a lot of reverse sear, using low and slow in my smoker with sear at the end. For a roast is this technique faster, or about the same time as that method?
It can be even longer. If you hold the surface at the core temperature, it will take as long as sous vide would. But if you hold it just a bit hotter (a couple of degrees) it will go quite a bit faster.
That rib roast took ~3hrs with me holding the surface at core temp. If I had held the surface 2-3 degrees F hotter, it would have taken closer to 2hrs.
Love this video! As an engineer and home cook this really tickled all the right parts of my brain. This also screams the followup question: is there a PID controllable oven out there that can automate your initial heat up and get the oven temp to approach surface temp ASAP?
News on progress towards that goal very soon.
@@ChrisYoungCooks Any follow up news on this? A control systems engineer that deals with process automation in petrochemical plants would love to know. Thought about doing something myself but bringing work home after a long shift is like a car mechanic working on his own car! LOL
Nice video - very informative
What oven is that?
@@davidcrist3753 I believe that's the 1st generation June Oven.
First I am really bad at names. Not until that shot with the Modernist Cuisine stands right next to the oven, I am like who does that! ? I keep mind well protected, than I realize wait a min this is the guy that’s in the booook! OMG! And this is the second video that I’ve watched from u(btw, the one taking about the pacojet is really promising). Subscribe right away! Excited to see what’s next on ur channel!
What do you do while baking pastries and breads
Very nice! Could you start low and then crisp at the end as well?
You could, but starting high doesn't do any crisping at the beginning, it just gets the surface up to temperature faster, which cuts the total cooking time.
I've got a freaking PhD in Chemistry and I didn't know this. So obvious. I did just buy a Combustion thermometer, it's fabulous.
Ditto James Hoffmann. My question. Did you choose the 2.5 inch thermocouple tips probe option? For both probes?
Yes.
Will the Combustion thermometer support induction? My Thermoworks always craps out when turning on the induction stove.
What temperature do you sear it at at the end?
however, just about all recipes just refer to oven temp and are tested at oven temp , correct? That being the case how am i to know what "surface temp" is the one used in a given recipe book? Right now i use a thermapen thermometer to closely monitor my oven actual temp . That btw is typically 5-17 degrees higher than the dial settings.
Question: with a large roast like that, if you're using your Predictive thermometer that isn't long enough to reach the middle if you poke it in horizontally from the end, do you recommend putting it horizontally from the front or vertically from the top - or does it matter?
Vertically from the top is my choice, this way you can easily hit dead center and there’s no hole running through the slices.
@@ChrisYoungCooks Makes sense! Thanks.
And here I was thinking about the effect of evaporative cooling and other things and forgetting about the simple things... LOL
Looking forward to see if you can get the Joule behind you in every shot, in every video
Challenge accepted.
ie - reverse sear.
If you had a single probe unit but also a (cheap) infrared heat gun, would the latter be an okay way to check the surface temp? (Not sure how accurate they are in reality/compared with the claimed specs...)
Infrared works pretty well on the surface of food. Certainly a great way to control things in a smoker or oven. And incorporating all this into a single probe is a good idea.
What if you only had an infrared gun?
@@pedromartinezlopez an IR thermometer will do a good job of measuring the surface temperature. You'll just want to check on the temperature every 5 to 10 minutes.
@@ChrisYoungCooks How much does the emissivity setting matter? Should you change it from food to food?
Cool
Any recommendations for dual probe digital thermometers?
I used a Thermoworks Thermometer Q in this video. It’s a solid choice.
@@ChrisYoungCooks I posted a question above as to if you had gone with the 2.5 inch thermocouple tips or something longer?
@@JayPFrancis I used the 2.5 in tips for the surface. I think I used a 2.5in for the core, but might have used a longer one.
My girlfriend sent me here. Probably also thanks to James Hoffman ☕. Nice content! We look forward to more!
What kind of oven are we using here?
First generation June oven.
So if the internal temp you want to reach is 135 would you have the surface at 140
You could do that, and will get a slight gradient in doneness, and a faster cooking time (maybe 20% faster).
If you want a edge-to-edge 135F, then you hold the surface at 135F and wait for the core to also reach 135F. This will take much longer than conventional roasting, but you get a sous vide like result.
Can you make a step by step on reverse searing? I’ve tried to follow along in other videos but the “how to” part isn’t the objective of the video so I’ve had to make many assumptions
Very interesting. Came here from reddit via r/BostonBestEats and I'm intrigued by this science which I'll use next roast
I only use a pyrometer to measure the roast's temperature, so the roast gets really roasted. :D
You said "food" and "science", I say "Suscribing". Ps. I just had coffe watching James, and now I could easily dig my face in one of those meat slices...
Those meat slices were so good!
Hi Chris. Will the Predictive Thermometer monitor surface temperature? I know technically its possible with all its temp sensors, but will the display and app allow you to see it? That would allow to implement this technique with a single probe.
Nevermind, found the answer in Combustion Inc extended instructions
"Surface Temperature Mode
During cooking, the Predictive Thermometer automatically locates the sensor inside the food that’s closest to the surface. This is the true cooking temperature your food is experiencing."
thanks!
Yes, it locates and displays the surface temperature.
Please, think of video course of Modernist cousine or similar course for people that don't like or can not read, but, are very good in visual learning. I, personally, ready to invest 500 per course...
Thank you
Now let’s do that temperature convergence really fast with a jet engine sear plate and back off to a cruising low altitude :)
LOL. I save those culinary exploits for a big summer BBQ party. Jet engines are cool, but what do you think about deep-frying in molten salt?
@@ChrisYoungCooks You...you can do that? 0.0 How do you not crush all the cell walls from salinity?
John Pontius yup. The most difficult part is getting the food to submerge in the molten salt, which is very dense. Probably easier to baste with molten salt. And that gives me an idea for another video.
@@ChrisYoungCooks That would be on par with the ChefSteps “Wall of Fire” classic. I’ll donate a steak & my enginerding talent stack to the cause.
I like the idea of having dual thermal couples. Now you just need to find a digital thermometer that has trending.
🤔
Roasting in the oven wouldnt get you the surface temperature but rather some equilibrium temperature between the core and the surface no?
Hi Chris, I'm enjoying your videos a lot! The ones you have show off some cool things in a nice and speedy fashion!
So, how does this technique compare to the reverse sear, roasting at 200-250 degrees with the probe in the center? It looks like it'll pretty much work the same, though faster since you're using a higher temp. But the higher temperature makes me think it could end up with a bit of a larger gradient between your desired doneness and it being more cooked at the edge. Have you compared them?
Thanks!
The crust is significantly better, and the addition of beef tallow adds a lot of flavor. You could ditch the LN2 and simply put the steak in the freezer for 10 min before deep-frying for a very similar result. But it’s not as awesome as using liquid nitrogen, obviously.
@@ChrisYoungCooks I think this reply was intended for a different video Chris :) This was about your surface temperature cooking style
Doesn't even begin to touch on how your oven lies about temperature. All the ovens I have ever used are electric and have resistance heating elements above and below the cooking interior space. When the oven is preheating, the elements are on continuously and draw the rated current of the appliance (say 30 Amps) until a set point is reached and the oven has hit it's supposed operating temp. The elements switch off and the oven is now cooling off, largely dependent on thermal barriers and in wall insulation to maintain oven temp. You open the door and hot air escapes while you put a cold pan with cold food inside. The oven now heats again to return to it's temperature set point. This process repeats while your food cooks. Note the heating elements are either on or off, there is no half on or quarter on. Just on or off. While on the heating elements emit infrared thermal radiation and glow a dull red. Quartz elements may emit more visible light. If you monitor your oven temp in real time it would look like a sawtooth wave as it heats and cools.
The food heats from convection due to hot air hitting the food and a convection oven increases this convection by using a fan to recirculate the air at faster speed. Forced air convection speeds up the cooking process by increasing the amount of heat transferred to your food per unit time. The air temp doesn't change but the amount of heating does. The wildcard in this process is the direct heating of your food when the heating element is on. Depending on how close your food is to the top element, the heat will brown and crisp due to direct infrared energy hitting the food and raising it's temp well above the temp of the food sitting underneath your grill or wire rack. This is like broiling but only happens while the heating elements are on. So your roast surface temp will go up and then down while the oven cycles on and off during the cooking time. Even when you turn your oven down to 250 F from 400, while the air temp goes down, the heating elements create the same amount of infrared energy but less frequently.
The shape of your food and how much surface area is exposed to direct infrared energy will impact how quickly it browns and crisps. Fat is an insulator and slows down roasts greatly. Same with how close to the heating elements it sits and dark vs. reflective pans. Sheet pan recipes depend on a thin layer of food sitting directly in a sheet pan and close to the elements to cook so quickly. So learning how your own oven bakes is a process of trial and error. I used to use various probe style thermometers from Fluke but switched to an instant read gun style thermometer as it doesn't touch the food and get dirty of course reads instantly. Using a two probe thermometer will help you figure it all out.
dsweedler agree with all of this, except the fat layer is more nuanced. It also slows evaporation (a lot), so less evaporative cooling = higher surface temperature beneath the fat = faster cooking.
In experiments, I typically the temperature 2 to 10C hotter underneath a fat cap.
Why don’t we have a smart thermometer yet that learns how quickly food gets heated and adjusts the oven accordingly? Doesn’t seem like a difficult product to me. (Not that I know much about this stuff.) Is it because there’s no way to electronically connect with ‘dumb’ ovens?
Combination of factors, but the TL;DR is that heavy metal appliance manufacturers don’t think like software companies. They don’t think about how to open their “platform” to enable third-party innovations. And they have no incentive to create recurring value for their customers because they make all their money when they sell you the appliance, rather than as you use that appliance.
@@ChrisYoungCooks Really interesting. The point about them making all the money upfront and no backend upselling means there's opportunity for a new oven manufacturer to build a business around the backend. Hopefully someone pulls it off.
jack76787 that fact has not entirely escaped my notice. But these things... they take time.
Doesn't the ANOVA precision oven do something similar?
Antalyan Junction sort of. The Anova Oven can control the air temperature (dry-bulb) and humidity. This gives it some control of wet-bulb temperature. The food surface temperature is, generally, in between these temps. If humidity is high enough then wet-bulb, surface temp, dry-bulb are all very close; but they are not the same temperatures unless humidity is 100%. And that’s more or less how the Anova Oven achieves sous vide like control.
Why do I feel like this is a subliminal ad for Joule.
More like something to keep people away from the new Anova precision oven
Nope. Joule’s already done, and you can get one from Breville. Done as much as I want to with sous vide. I’m interested in building new things.
@@ChrisYoungCooks Can't compete with Guga! 😜
@@ChrisYoungCooks appreciate you replying and sorry for the cynicism 😏 I do appreciate new methods and tips and this definitely has a lot of appeal in being less fussy than SV!
@@johnmaher7078 no worries, and definitely not trying to be critical of the Anova oven. While I haven't used one yet, I know the folks involved and I'm sure it's great. This was really meant to be more about the fundamentals of how food cooks in an oven (smoker, deep fryer, etc) and knowing that almost no one thinks about the "real" cooking temperature.
Cool technique and video. Am I alone in having always thought the temperature setting of an oven is merely setting air temperature? Were people really thinking the oven temp setting was what the actual food temp was? 🤷♂️
Perfect roast like perfect steak, is subjective to the consumer. I don't eat meat with red color in it, but depending on the cooking method, this doesn't have to mean well done.
Chris, I like your video; however, the oven is not lying to you. You are demonstrating non-equilibrium heat transfer. The real temperature that your food experiences is not the surface temperature, but instead, it is the temperature profile in the meat (1:54-2:01), which dictates the degree the meat proteins denature (or cook). The surface temperature is predictable based on the equation of thermal diffusion, inclusive of the material properties of the meat.
Your diagram at 2 minutes makes no sense att all to me and does not match what you’re saying. But interesting method, I’ll certainly try it.
There comes a lot of juice out of your meat (at 2:21)
Yes, you will always have juice leak out when cooking meat no matter the technique. Sous vide, low-temp roasting, or any other method. The amount of juice lost during slicing is similar to what would be lost cooking sous vide.
But those juices are delicious and should be seasoned and poured over the meat when serving.
I think you're cutting that beef too thick. Thin slices and more of them please.
Are you no longer involved with chefsteps?
I sold ChefSteps to Breville in July of 2019. Took a break. And now I’m building something new at combustion.inc
@@ChrisYoungCooks wow! Congrats! I thought Breville became a sponsor. Didn't think they bought chefsteps entirely! Was joule part of the deal?
어디가 yes, Breville owns and sells the Joule product line.