Great discussion! The last 2 1/2 years i have gone thru a similar slow study of my own. After going to church my entire life, i finally realized i could not put The Gospel into my own words. I began to study what it is and what it is not. I learned about the origins/teachings of the NAR, the Word of Faith, the emergent church, and the influence of new age in the church. I was appauled by how many of those twisted teachings i believed. I repented and am developing a more Biblical simplified belief. I now call myself a conservative Pentecostal, and i am amazed by how many different views & ways to believe the scriptures. Everyone can validate their views, at least to themselves. Even tho Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, people sure have a million ways to intepret His word. The Truth is not as black and white as one would think.
Speaking of conservative Pentecostals, there is good reason to believe that Charles Parham himself was an annihilationist: rethinkinghell.com/2019/07/09/charles-fox-parham-father-of-modern-pentecostalism-and-annihilationist/
I think the parable about Lazarus and the Rich man's point is centered around the words of Abraham saying "even if someone comes back from the dead they will not believe"... it was alluding to the fact that someone was about to go to the grave and return and even so countless will still not believe. Jesus was sort of prophesying about Himself and what He was about to do
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2) I guess it depends on what Ignatius believed about the term "unquenchable fire" ? I can see how one would read this (and other comments from early church fathers) and come to believe the early church believed hell was eternal.
The Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs categorizes quotes from early church fathers by topic. That is where I got the quote below and have actually read all the early church father's in their original works up to Taitian. I'm skipping him because I really want to read Tertullian...
There is nothing in the phrase "unquenchable fire" that indicates eternal duration. To quench a fire means to put it out. It means to extinguish it. A fire that is not stopped but dies out after burning everything up has not been quenched. Therefore, an unquenchable fire is simply one that cannot be extinguished. Whether it eventually dies out or burns forever is not indicated by the phrase "unquenchable fire." We know in the Old Testament God speaks of earthly fires that will not be quenched, sich as Ezekiel 20:47.
@@MetalSandman999 I'm fully aware of how Edward Fudge views "unquenchable fire" but the question is did the father quoted use Edward Fudge's lense or an eternal torment lense when throwing out that statement?. The problem is we do not know what "lense" he used when using that term out because he doesn't define 'unquenchable fire" but assume the readers would know. that is my entire point..both sides can raise their hand and try to garner support for the early church fathers. We do know that the flames will never be 'quenched' because Revelations 20:9-10 clearly states that. The question is who will be in that lake of fire for all eternity? Good question and I'm still on the fence. Edward Fudge makes a pretty good case but I'm not willing to jump in yet...
Man, this is very intriguing! I have had some of these thoughts over the years , never really addressed them. I want to thank remnant radio for having the courage to discuss these topics like this!!
Interesting discussion. I agree with Jordan. Historically, the doctrine of eternal torment began in Greek mythology. Then, the Roman Catholics adopted it to keep their members in bondage to fear. And many of our modern Bibles, which were originally translated from the Greek largely by Roman Catholics, confused the terms "Sheol," "Hades," and "Hell," obscuring the issue. Sadly, the vast majority of non-Catholic Christians have bought into that doctrine. Careful exegesis reveals that the place of torment is Sheol or Hades, but Gehenna, translated "Hell," is the place of destruction. Also, the Hebrew ('olam) and Greek (aion) terms translated "forever," do not refer to timeless eternity. They refer to a long, indefinite period of time, but not to timeless eternity. Finally, as Jordan mentioned, Yeshua said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but fear Him who can DESTROY [not "torment"] the body and the soul in Hell (Mat 10:28)." Yes, incredible torment is in store for the unredeemed in Sheol or Hades, but not when, after the final judgment, they are destroyed in Hell or the Lake of Fire ("Hell" in Revelation 20:14 in the KJV should be "Hades").
Actually the King James Bible has hell correct. Hell is nothing but Sheol passed down to English via Germani Icandic a Sheol becomes shoal shell Hell holle hole hollow hall passing into a dialectic hard "h" becoming cell this is from etymology when races intermingle so the king James translators are aeons beyond modern imbecile translators who get it totally wrong the greek hades is NOTHING like what the Hebrew scriptures portray by either Sheol or Jesus by Gehenna when Jesus spoke of the rich man being in hades he was very obviously ridiculing a common rabbinic parable that adopted Pagan greek platonic views because they "refused to believe Moses or the scriptures.
Have Jordan back on again, i myself have been on this path of study for a while. John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 were eye openers for me. Either you perish / die or inherit ever lasting life
What's really sad in disappointing? Is that nobody at any point in this video, of which I have watched in entirety, addressed the fact that "for ever and ever" is a mistranslation of "for ages."
I would love to put this subject on my list of things I want to study more in-depth! One thing I notice when we evangelize to the lost... Is, if you tell them "eternal torment," they're more likely to be concerned. But, if you tell them you'll cease to exist; they don't really care as much and just shrug their shoulders and say, "oh well." So, I like to warn them of both consequences.
The Greek word translated as hell in English is hades. Gehenna is a place of destruction which was a dump outside Jerusalem which was always burning. Some bibles translate that too as hell. Hell just means the grave where people go when they die. Jesus went there too. Looking at it logically: For God to torment someone forever, He will have to first give them the GIFT of eternal life and then torture them. Makes no sense.
I would love to hear a discussion on the the description in Revelations 20 about ever and ever or age and age in the Greek and how it is actually possibly referring to space not time. Where it could be translated that the smoke goes from Earth all the way up to heaven. The way the Greek word translated age to age is a difficult word study I would appreciate a discussion on this 🤔 50:39
Bring on Robin Parry who has done so much scholarship on Ultimate Reconciliation/Christian Universalism. He is a great resource. Love these conversations to foster open discussion.
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th. Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode. After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
Hope you enjoy it! By the way, I got your boy booked. He will be on in like 7 days. I am really looking forward to the apostolic succession conversation.
Yes! I truly believe that this understanding will break the shackles that have bound the church from sharing the Gospel with confidence and joy. "In your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…"
I think there is definitely an appeal from within our hearts that the consequences of sin would not be eternal. It is a difficult concept to meditate on, but I feel like there is a lot of scooting around verses here to avoid what scripture implies if not outright teaches. One plain verse that was not brought up was Daniel 12:2 - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." It appears that the contempt for those who are not found in Christ will be eternal. The word used for contempt is only used in one other passage in the scriptures, one that I believe was brought up and dismissed, Isaiah 66:24 - “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Both passages clearly are speaking of those resurrected at the end, one speaks of the length of contempt, and the other speaks of what that contempt means with reference to the worm and fire. Then that same language is used by Jesus in the New Testament repeatedly to warn those about the fate of the ungodly... why would Jesus use that language with concepts of worm never sleeping and fire never quenched if this punishment were only temporary? It doesn't make sense. Clearly, this is a secondary issue, but I don't know that the scriptures could be more clear if you simply read them in context and imagine what the hearers were intended to take away.
To piggybackmon what The Hell Project said, the consequences of sin are eternal if annihilationism is true. Whether you sin or not - or in practice, whether your sins or forgiven or not - affects whether you live forever with God in the kingdom of heaven ot whether you burn up in a raging fire and are gone forever. Those are pretty different fates, and the difference remains throughout eternity. Those who die the second death will never rise from the dead again. Their death is forever. Consequences are eternal because you either enter life or death, and once you do, it's forever.
As alluded to in the response below, the claim that there are eternal consequences for unrepentant sin is entirely consistent with conditional immortality. There is no coming back from the second death (as per 33:00 - 34:10 in the video). Moreover, as bad as sin is, to grant the gift of eternal life to someone simply for the purpose of keeping them alive so they can be tortured for all eternity is neither consistent with love, nor with justice.
Hitler died in 1945…would you say contempt for him has been perpetual since? Basically grammar dictates that the entities feeling contempt are alive (ie, the verse is definitely not saying the condemned feel contempt for themselves. No, it’s the righteous feeling contempt for the wicked & that contempt can exist eternally, even after the wicked are no more. Secondly, in the very passage you quote from Isaiah, that very verse says they look on the DEAD bodies. They aren’t observing living bodies conscious of being tormented.
First and foremost. Love what you guys are doing and even though I don't share your same views exactly I am proud to call you brothers in Christ. On the topic, the only part that I would probably push back on a little bit is the fact that the fear of God is the begining of wisdom, and I think within that fear, I've always felt the reality of hell, and a place I don't want to end up . and like you said, that may be something that we have just believe traditionally, and haven't really invested much time into studying . But I would say the reality of eternal punishment has been something that really was the driving force behind my surrendering to Christ and the hope of eternal life in heaven . Look forward to another interview. Diving in deeper. God bless you guys.
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th. Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode. After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th. Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode. After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
David Pawson's book, "The Road To Hell" does a great job, using scholarship, to argue for Eternal Conscious Torment. It's a small book. One of the highlights is that it explains the meaning of the word 'destruction', and what is its most common use in Scripture.
I’ve read a lot of scripture and done quite a bit of Bible study, however, I believe imo that it makes sense that in order for God to have to have his Kingdom on Earth he would have to annihilate the wicked and have his own people there in order to have peace on Earth. I do believe that the grandiose Platonic imagery did introduce a lot of false doctrine and it was indoctrinated into scripture along with others I.e. Dante’s Divine Comedy, which btw, I didn’t find comedic or amusing at all.
At 31:03 he talked about Judith. I do not know if this is the only reference to eternal suffering but here this verse is. Judith 16:17 (NRSV): 17 Woe to the nations that rise up against my people! The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment; he will send fire and worms into their flesh; they shall weep in pain forever. 35:24 weeping and gnashing of teeth he said means angry. Hippocrates used the word as a physical manifestation not emotional. Specifically symptomatic of chills. But mostly it does mean an emotional response
In addition to the post I made about just what a lousy, wild paraphrase "forever and ever" is from the actual Greek text, which literally translated would be "Unto the age of the ages", the phrase "forever and ever" by definition MUST be taken figuratively as it's literally impossible to add anything to infinity or eternity. It's nonsensical, which gives credence to the idea that it's just apocalyptic/hyperbolic speech. But again, it's the translators that inserted that wildly hyperbolic paraphrase into the text to begin with. As anyone knows, Revelation is by far THE most figurative, mystical book in the Bible. It's also the LAST book in the Bible. We can ALL agree that IF God is to be even remotely fair AND He would create such a severe, incomprehensible punishment as eternal torture in one of THE most painful experiences(burning with fire) possible, then he would need to 1. State the punishment up front 2. State it CLEARLY, not use figurative or hyperbolic speech, let alone speech that would mean the exact opposite of what He really means(ie death means living forever in a horrific state, or burned up or consumed actually means NEVER being burned up or consumed but experiencing the process for all eternity, or the wages of sin IS death, but REALLY means eternal life in torment) 3. State if OVER AND OVER again, just to make sure it sinks in. ECT violates ALL three of those, while Annihilationism fits ALL three to a T! God stated up front to Adam, IF he eats the fruit, he WILL die. Then when he ate of it, God told him, from the dust of the ground you came, to the dust you will return. Note he didn't say, now you're going to burn for all eternity. Then from that point on, over and over and over, the fate of the wicked is stated as, death, burned up, destroyed, perished, consumed, be no more, even CEASE TO EXIST FOREVER! (Ezekiel 28:19) There is not ONE verse that EVER specifically mentions eternal torment, and only 1 that mentions being tormented "forever and ever" but it's the LAST book of the Bible, it's the most figurative book of the Bible, it's using a translation that is actually a wild paraphrase AND the paraphrase can NOT be taken literally, as it's a nonsensical statement IF taken literally AND it specifically mentions ONLY three entities.
LOL at the weeping and gnashing of teeth. THAT happens at the judgment. People in horrific pain SCREAM, they don't weep or gnash their teeth. As mentioned, those are actions from sadness or anger.
I am very worried about where I will end up, I am really struggling with my physical and mental health, I have constant burning on my eyes and head and chronic tinnitus, I have had a lot of head injuries in my past when I left the military I got into very bad living and drug use so I have been very sinful in that respect, I’ve alway worked hard and tried to provide for my family but there’s a disconnect of my heart and after I had cerebral malaria my mental health has declined, I have very little memory I feel paper thin and I have intrusive thoughts which really upset me. I am always at the doctors and have tried lots of ways to heal and better myself. I am very worried about my future, all I want to do is heal and feel love in my heart but my illness won’t allow me. Please help me
Brother I have this reponse. Christ loves you. He is aware of all you have gone through, He has experienced all the pain you have experienced. Your life is important to Him and he desires your companionship with Him in a world where are your issues will be gone because His grace will heal you from them all. Trust Christ and ask for his grace. The consequences of our sin in this life may sometimes remain with us, but we are looking for another home. Keep your eyes upward and you will be healed by Jesus ( if not in this life) when He returns. Do not become discouraged, but trust Him more fully. God bless you Christian Brother
Praying for you. There is healing for PTSD. Embrace the fact that nothing can separate you from the love of God not even your own sins, run to the cross. I don't want to minimize ur pain with christianese as if it's easy. I pray u know u are so very loved.
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th. Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode. After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
Can you discuss/comment, in Part Two, on how this view has sometimes been combined, and hence dismissed as heresy, with the false teaching of soul sleep? We were taught both soul sleep and nihilism in the cult of Armstrongism growing up and have really wrestled with the concept of hell since being saved, especially since mainline Christians just accept eternal conscious torment without question, as you have pointed out here. Thanks for your time and consideration. Your approach to this and other doctrinal topics is much appreciated.
I would like to get in contact with Jordan Sutton if that is possible. I have some fresh insights on conditional immortality that I would love to share with him.
Yaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssss!! I'm so frustrated with how many times I have been deemed "heretical" for my view of CI. Ive gotten to the point where I never talk about it anymore. We recently moved and started going to a new church that started a series on heaven/hell right after we started going. My husband mentioned my view to the pastor who got EXTREMELY concerned and treated me as a Universalist. He brought me a copy of "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan...not having any understanding that Preston Sprinkle has said CI is relavent. Sigh...
We moved to Battle Creek Michigan. Here is a funny thing though...Battle Creek is like the mecca of all things 7th Day Adventist. Their founders lived here and are burried here. The 7th Day Adventists hold a CI view of hell. Unfortunately that causes Protestant churches to get all up in arms about it without actually giving it a look.
Amen sister. You are biblical, and Preston Sprinkle who co-wrote that book with Francis Chan is definitely in the CI camp. Your view is Biblical truth. I bet the Catholics called Martin Luther a heretic. Glad he was!
I totally understand that. I live in Alabama (a.k.a. the Bible belt) and I am a believer in conditional immortality and annihilatonism. You will be hated and shunned by all the conservative southern Baptists around here if you express those views. Fortunately, the area I live in isn't super southern anymore and has gotten a lot of transplants, so even though the majority of churches here are still super traditional Baptist or Churches of Christ, there are others as well. I sometimes attend an Anglican church that doesn't preach "fire and brimstone" sermons, and although their doctrine doesn't officially teach annihilationism, they seem to be more open/tolerant of it. We do also have a fairly significant Seventh Day Adventist population here (and actually, my next door neighbors are Adventists). While I don't agree with some of the doctrines, I have found them to be really lovely people, and they do have the correct teaching on hell!
I recommend *Shepherd's Chapel* channel right here on UA-cam. They're a great ministry, in my opinion, that also teach CI and their channel puts out 24/7 Bible teaching streams.
I came to this conclusion while thinking about black holes. If you watch another person fall into a black hole, you will see them approach the event horizon infinitely slowly, because of how light leaving a black hole slows down. You will never see them arrive. The person, however, will see very little, as they fall in and are infinitely squished into a singularity or whatever happens in there. From the outside, their existence is infinite, from the inside, finite. I thought, 'if God sustains our existence by His very attention and word, then to be forgotten about or ignored by God would be deletion. But a continuing being (not infinite, just would have kept going) being will somehow experience this deletion forever." So I came to the conclusion it is a fire which consumes forever, from the point of view of the consumee, and a fire which consumes instantly from the point of view of the consumer.
That is exactly how I make sense of it as well. Except, I thought whoever has fallen into the hole experiences destruction as eternal as time dilates infinitely.
I understand the view, but I cannot take the translation or the blatant disregard of phrases like " no rest" or "torment forever and ever" and ignore it. I am just hearing too much grasping at straws type of excuses for some of the things he is reading. I don't want eternal torment to be true! But If it is true it is what it is. The revelation scriptures really defeat it in my opinion. Also the Isiah scripture does as well. Especially the " and they will find no rest" . Sounds awful!! Jesus save us! Thank you for presenting the viewpoint. I do appreciate it and look forward to the 2nd video
I totally agree. I think he is too hung up on the idea of Eternal life being the same as immortality. They are not the same. The bible definition of life is when we are united with God (now and in heaven) and death is being separated from God (now and in hell).
I think he is too hung up on the idea of Eternal life being the same as immortality. They are not the same. Humans are not eternal but he have an eternal spirit that will be forever in heaven or hell. Not to mention, the bible definition of life is when we are united with God (now and in heaven eternally) and death is being separated from God (now and in hell). We see that in Ephesians 2.... "we were dead in sins but are now alive unto Christ." Same in colossians. This is clearly not talking about human life since we all had a pulse before we came to salvation. This is about being separated from God (dead to God) vs connect to God (Alive and responsive to him) Those in hell face an eternal death, meaning they will be forever separated from God because they rejected His free gift of His son Jesus who saves. This does not make God unloving, he is a righteous and perfect judge... if you sin and go against God, you face judgement. Just the same as we don't think it wrong for a natural judge to send someone to prison for a crime. The wages of sin is death (separation from God) -- we will all die a natural death even if we live for Jesus.... but the true death is the one separate from God.
BEABEREAN - Separation from God is one kind of 'death' spoken of in the Bible, that's true. But the Bible also speaks of actual death as in oblivion - see Ecclesiastes 9:5-6. In Christ we are being saved from both - the separation from God and also the 'last enemy'. And where in the Bible does it say that we have an eternal spirit apart from God?
The "Forever and ever" line, used 3 times in revelation is NOT in the Greek text. The reason Rev 20:10 and Rev 14:11 are so misleading is the LOUSY translation of the actual Greek phrase "eis ho aion eis ho aion" as "Forever and Ever." "Forever and ever" isn't just a lousy translation, it's a wild paraphrase. Eis means to, into, unto, towards, etc. Ho, just means, this, that, the, etc Aion means, age, period of time, world and CAN mean forever. But there is no way to arrange the meaning of those FIVE words into Forever and Ever. A more direct translation would be, Unto the age of the ages. Which would be a perfect fit for the verse I quoted in Luke, where Jesus mentioned “only those found WORTHY to ATTAIN to THAT AGE!” The devil and his angels will be destroyed in the lake of fire and burn UNTO THE AGE OF THE AGES, in other words UNTIL the new heavens and earth, where there will be no more sorrow, no more night(so clearly, they can’t burn night and day for eternity, as there won’t be any more night in the NEW and final AGE of the AGES). But the proof that phrase isn't meant to denote eternity, is the fact that one, they could have just said eternity, but also the fact that Rev 19 uses the exact same phrase to talk about the smoke of Babylon rising "forever and ever", which no one believe Babylon will be restored in the NEW heaven and earth, just so it can continue to smoke for all eternity.
I realize this is two years too late but, it sounds like he wants to build a case around the OT statements.. but what about the words of the Lord Himself? ......................... Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." ........ How does he reconcile such a position with these verses ?
In Revelation 20 where the Beast, the Devil and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire it is after 1,000 years, does this apply to the Church Age?
@@aussierob7177 Thank you for your question, Rob. I use 33 different translations in my Bible studies and have between a half-hour and one and a half hours of Bible study each day.
@@TheRemnantRadio Are you referring to Inspiring Philosophy? If so, yes, I know him. He calls me his #1 fan. What would you like for me to do to get him on the show?
@@TheRemnantRadio If you were referring to John Walton, Inspiring Philosophy knows him. You may be able to reach John Walton through Inspiring Philosophy.
@@TheRemnantRadiolol, I am very grateful for both. I have several books written by John Walton. Inspiring Philosophy interviewed John Walton last year on his channel. Inspiring Philosophy is working on a Genesis series and John Walton reviews all of the videos of that series before they are uploaded to UA-cam.
How can they pay accoding to thier works of 70 or 80 years forever and in hades torments they suffer and then at the final day they are anihillated in the lake of fire ya dig
Listening in the UK. I have only recently discovered Remnant radio and would like to say just how interesting and riveting and helpful I have found what I have watched: thank you! With respect, one thing to pick up here: it is a common misconception to claim that the Rev John Stott advocated annihilationism. In fact, he wrote in his book ‘Essentials,’ (a dialogue with a liberal counterpart) that he would accept annihilationism as a credible reading of the relevant Scriptures, (a statement that got him in a lot of bother), but he never wrote that he embraced this view personally.
Very interesting discussion, this is an issue I want to delve into more. A side note here, though it is not directly pertinent to this discussion, Dr. Fudge being Church of Christ does give me pause for concern. From what I understand, Church of Christ, at least traditionally, did think they were the one, true restored church, and that one needed a regenerative, believer’s baptism within the structure of the Church of Christ to be saved. They also do not believe in original sin from what I understand. The podcast, Cultish, from Apologia Church did an episode on this a while back which is where I’m drawing a lot of this from. Still, a good and insightful episode.
One or two people have said this as well. But it seems to generate an interest with people who are watching live. We will consider postponing phone calls and see how that affects the show. thanks for the opinion. These kinds of criticisms are helpful.
@@TheRemnantRadio I agree with donorush. The phone calls can kill the flow of the show. I like the hosts taking questions via the chat and filtering them into a concise question then letting the answers delineate the possible clarifications.
So another late question for anyone that may be looking on here still. My question isn't based on any scripture rather the lost and their present attitude. Those who are in complete rebellion always say I will live like I want and indulge in whatever pleasure I choose and when my life is over I go back to dust. If in the end that is what happens and there is no eternal consequences where its darkness/separation from God of eternal fire, then what is there to avoid from their standpoint? I understand they are missing out on eternal joy/peace of life with God but if they cease to exist after they are judged then it seems anticlimactic in some ways.
Apart from the fact that they'll be missing out on an unimaginably incredible eternity with God, I believe that the Bible indicates there will be degrees of punishment for each person before they perish completely. It's not like unrepentant sinners are going to just do whatever they like and not suffer the just consequences for their own deeds. I don't think someone like Mao Zedong is going to suffer equally to someone like a common thief. But ultimately, it ends in their complete destruction and them being blotted out of existence. No amount of sin or the severity of sins committed in this temporary life would warrant a fate such as that of eternal conscious torment and agony. The wages of sin is death.
Matthew 25:46 uses the exact same word for eternity when stating how long the ones who are punished will endure the punishment and the righteous will enjoy life. Same context, same verse, same Greek word. As for punishment goes, it is the eternal separation from God that is the punishment. Conscious, eternal. Imagine having full and complete knowledge of who God is and what you were offered in your physical existence but you refused, then having eternal knowledge that you will be in separation from experiencing the presence of God. You would want to cease to exist but you can't. You would want to die but your soul is eternal. Eternal separation from the love of God and the enjoyment of Him with absolute full and complete knowledge that it was you that chose to reject His offer of eternity with Him would be more tormenting than anything I can imagine. And the torment is self inflicted. You chose not to accept Christ. You made the choice to reject Him. He us simply giving you the end result if your choice.
I would argue that the fact that the word "eternal" is used for both punishment and life in Matthew 25:46 does not prove that hell is a place of eternal conscious suffering because annihilation can be rightly called "eternal punishment." For more on that see below (as well as other articles on the topic at Rethinkinghell.com) ;) rethinkinghell.com/2014/01/15/matthew-2546-does-not-prove-eternal-torment-part-1/
@@TheHellProject It actually doesn't if we understand that this is just the beginning of the torment due to receiving the full knowledge of the consequences of their earthly choice to reject God. This is just the beginning of the eternal separation. The knowledge that they have chosen incorrectly and that it can never be reversed will take place in the presence of the angels and the Lamb but the consequence of that choice will be eternal and will be carried out away from the presence of God. It fits perfectly.
@@MetalSandman999 A punishment that cannot be experienced is no punishment at all. If a court finds you guilty of a crime and sentences you to twenty years in prison but you aren't there for the trial and the sentencing and can't be out in jail for even a moment because you're in a country that will not extradite you, you will never experience that punishment for even a moment. The ruling is set and the punishment is valid but it is of no consequence to you since you cannot feel the intended result of the court's decision. The same is true for a soul that has ceased to exist. It cannot feel the weight of the decision made in this life and therefore doesn't experience the punishment.
@@TheHellProject Are you really arguing that man can punish in the same way as God? I sure hope that we can draw a huge distinction between what God can issue as punishment and what man can issue as punishment. And we must (emphasis on must) understand that man's punishment of putting a person to death is temporal where Gods punishment is eternal. Actually it does say that separation from God is involved in punishment. The story of Lazarus clearly shows that he was separated from God. I don't think there can be a more clear scripture than that. He asked for a drop of water on his tongue and was told that the chasm between him and the servant of God was such that no man can cross it. Put that together with scripture that the overcome will enjoy the presence of God for eternity and we can show that eternal separation from God is, at the very least, a part if the eternal punishment. Even your understanding claims an eternal separation from God. You're claiming that the soul will cease to exist. This necessarily means that the soul will be eternally separated from God. So your issue isn't the separation, it's how the soul is separated. Does it cease to exist and therefore is eternally separated, or does it continue to exist and experience that separation? That's the only point of contention.
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ' Depart from me, you cursed, in to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. It's very important for every one to read the bible to "Test the spirits" to seek out the truth on every matter the Bible dose not support the concept of temporary punishment. On the contrary it conforms that Hell is not only the second death but clearly teaches that it's eternal.
Facts . Its a sobering and very biblical doctrine. Have you read Is Hell for Real ? Erik Raymond Its a very sound and yet gracious book . And he even gives the different views
I hope hell is annihilation, but the Bible in Revelation says "Whosoever's name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment rises FOREVER and they shall have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT. If the wicked are annihilated, then what does "No rest day or night" mean? Also, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, notice the rich man dies and immediately finds himself in torment in flames. He asks for water to cool his pain, but is told a great gulf prevents that. He then asks someone to warn his brothers. He is in tormenting pain, and is able to have a rational conversation. How does that in any way sound like annihilation? Literally or metaphorically?
Jesus is the tree of life. Only those who eat of the tree will inherit eternal life. Sinners, however, are not promised eternal life. They will not live forever. If they don't live forever, can they be tortured forever?
Not sure if anyone will answer because this is from 2 years ago… but one of the main things not addressed in this discussion is the reality of two resurrections, and only those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed. There’s a second resurrection for those who did not believe in Jesus, who are considered “dead” and not in the book of Life…and they are cursed. They still receive a resurrected body… which means not a body of flesh like we have now, and then get cast into the lake of fire where the beast, dragon, and false prophet are. All this is in Revelation 20 where it specifically states the torment in the lake of fire is eternal. Torment- forever. We all receive new flesh… a new resurrected body. Some will receive everlasting life in that new body and others everlasting death. It would have been good if there were references specifically to the 2 resurrections, because that really changes things in this discussion. If a fire burns out when what is burning is consumed, then the fact that the fire is never quenched in “hell”means that there is always something present to burn. Just food for thought. I don’t think we understand the severity of our sin and rebellion against God. But just as there are different rewards for the blessed (various degrees of glory based on how we lived), so there are different levels of suffering in hell.
Hi Juli: I have done alot of research on this and church history regarding Revelations. Revelations is classed with other apocalyptic writings such as Daniel and others ouitside the Canon. Some conservative Christian theologians state that they would not use Revelations to create Church Dogma. It is highly hyperbolic and it barely made it into the canon. Even Martin Luther had his doubts about Revelations. It is not my purpose to weaken your view of scripture but only to point out that Revelations is not a place to go searching for proof sources for ones views on a particular doctrine. The Canon was finally settled at about 400 A.D. Before that time it was understood that some books now in the Canon would not be used to establish church doctrine...and Revelations was one of them. However, that understanding was forgotten by the time the Canon was finalized. When the main force of scripture says that people will be destroyed or perish, it means that the whole person dies, body and soul. However, people go to Revelations to teach the opposite. People who use Revelations to prove whatever point they want to make but never consider its history and/or are ignorant of this fact. Revelations talks about the second death. That is for unbelievers who are resurrected for judgment. God's judgment will be just and it is believable that Hitler will be resurrected so that he will face the consequences of his actions in life, receive the many stripes he deserves, and finally experience the second death. He will receive his just punishment and then will be destroyed......no eternal torment not even for him for death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. I truly hope I have not confused you. I can provide the sources for this information if you are interested. Kind Regards, JP
The word "eternal" in Greek doesn't mean forever. It means for a period of time. For instance, if you keep touching a hot stove, you will burn your hand until you stop touching the hot stove. So, you will burn your hand eternally until you learn to stop touching the stove. Einstein said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result." That is eternal.
I think Micheal Heiser would only recognize the Book of Enoch as it was written during the intertestemental period. I believe most of the Apocrypha was written last after the 1st century and most of it can't be proven to have been round before or during the time of Jesus or the Epistles. If I'm remembering correctly from Dr. Heiser, the Book Enoch (and the writing of Ben Sirach, the Book of Sirach) were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. But I need to double check.
Can you tell me if you're Calvints? I'm a former Calvinist (no I'm not an Armenian now or Universalist or semi palagian etc.) I'm seeking non Calvinist teachers who are Biblically sound. Please let me know if you can, thank you.
God's Holiness does not allow for revenge. Also, scripture says only God is immortal and we don't put on immortality until we are with Jesus. Also scripture says that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not people.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins in a day. A sinner in eternal hell would die a thousand days on the cross to avoid eternity in hell. The wages of sin is indeed death. Sinners will perish. John 3:16 Thank God!
One thing to point out from Jordans initial introduction into Conditionalism, Jordan mentions that God has removed eternal life from man and put that gift in Christ. I'm not an expert but I would say that in Genesis, man was never eternal in and of themselves, man needed the Tree of Life and Yahweh sent Adam and Eve out from the Garden of Eden thereby separating them from eternal life. I believe this is where people would originally be able to point out that humans are not eternal without Yahweh, only Yahweh is eternal.
This is my understanding of eternal life and death. Life and death is opposite just like light and darkness. You cannot say darkness is non-existent. Darkness is just the absence of light so it's still there whether you acknowledge it or not. Life is all the good things that is the presence of God such as love, strength, growth, light, water, air, etc. Hell is the grave and also a place where there is no presence of God, where there are unquenchable fires, and where there are worms that can't die. Death does not mean you die and become non-existent; because, after the body dies on Earth, the body goes back to being part of Earth, thus turning back into dust. The soul still exists and goes to the fiery Hell or Paradise. In Revelation, this death is called the first death. So if your soul still exists after the first death, I'm sure you're still existing after the second death, which is when every dead from the Sea and Hell will be judged and the wicked will be thrown into the Lake of Fire with Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet. How wonderful it is for Satan to never get to be tormented if you believe everyone is annihilated in the Lake of Fire. Satan is put in jail for one thousand years and is released for a season because it's a chance for him to repent. But we know he still won't repent. The Lake of Fire is the punishment and consequence of Satan's choice. He will get tormented day and night forever and ever in the Lake of Fire because angels are eternal spiritual beings that can't die. Where in the Bible does it says angels can die? It makes more sense that they are tormented forever than getting annihilated, that's why Jesus Christ came to die on the cross for you. If we're just going to get annihilated, then we can just do whatever we want and don't have to worry about getting tormented. We will just be poof, gone, we don't have to worry about the consequence at all because there will be no more pain and suffering. If you say God is only loving and merciful, then you don't know God. God can do whatever he wants because he is holy, just, and powerful. God can destroy, kill, punish, and torment if he has to, that's why everyone should fear God. Jude 1:7 KJV [7] "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Notice in the verse mentioned above, it did not say death, destruction, or annihilation because of God's eternal fire. It says "suffering" so it's not talking about how Sodom and Gomorrah are left desolate. It did not say as a result of his eternal fire so you can't argue, "Oh, his eternal fire has destroyed them so that means his eternal fire is annihilation because they and his eternal fire are not there anymore." That verse is using Sodom and Gomorrah's suffering as an example of how they suffer in his eternal fire.
You've got to understand that hell and the Lake of Fire are two separate and distinct places. Hell is temporary, but the Lake of Fire is permanent. Then you can argue about the Lake of Fire - it is everlasting - not eternal - again there is a distinct difference between everlasting and eternal. Are those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire conscience? Anyone and anything thrown into a Lake of Fire is destroyed.
The biggest problem I have with Eternal Conscious Torment is that a loving God surely wouldn't create our souls so we could suffer forever even by rejecting him. Surely no sin is so grievious as merit eternity in agony, and surely God did not create man for such a fate. Though I admit that justice to God is not necessarily what man would see as justice so if that's his will (ECT) he has good reason for it, I just don't believe it. Ceasing to exist in both a physical and spiritual sense is a punishment when God promised eternal life with him to those that trusted in his promise. However my view is that you're not in the fires of divine punishment for all eternity but that you're cursed to live forever away from God's love if that's what you choose. I don't think God wants people who don't want him and those people get exactly what they deserve.
Guess it just depends on perspective. Problem I have with conditionalism is that unbelievers essentially just…cease to exist. Right? Any atheist will find solice in that because they don’t believe they will exist after death anyways. So they just cease and that’s it. Very nihilistic approach in my opinion. Could it be accurate? Sure. I just don’t see it as a costly wage when you compare it to life in heaven. Billions of people would be just fine to cease to be. And if that was God’s plan? Ok. Cool. I sympathize with the idea of reconciling God against eternal punishment. What kind of God would set that up? Well, same God who told ancient Israelites to murder women and children and infants of neighboring pagan tribes. Surely anyone in modern day would take issue with that commandment, right? And yet - while I don’t believe it was God’s intent for some of us made in His image - to be murdered at the infant level, it was still justice according to Him. I don’t have a problem with eternal fire. I don’t wanna end up there. But I don’t see it as God’s creation. God didn’t creat evil - yet we are proclaiming what kind of God would let people suffer. The whole thing is we get to choose.
This man right on the money. another thing the bible says death is wages for our sin and that is what JESUS did for us, he died in our place.if the wages for sin is forever torment than JESUS did not pay the price. and I am not belittling in noway the sacrafice JESUS made for us
Jesus paid the price for those who choose Him as their Lord and Savior. For those who refuse, eternal torment is your reward. The Bible and Christ's own words really can't make it any plainer
I've been taught that since I was a child and I'm 65 now. I believe you would be able to find it. It's not just Satan, demons, the antichrist and false prophet but all that reject God
ive heard over a 100 near death experience/dream/vision videos on heaven and hell. obviously cant believe everyone. but one thing i noticed there are a TON of similarities within peoples stories. ive heard plenty of stories of hell being a literal eternal torment that God allowed them to see. i don't like the idea of hell but that doesnt mean i get to decide its not eternal torment. judgment is way bigger than me and my preferences
@@GnaReffotsirk yes ive heard quite a few people explain seeing that. i recomend looking up Bill Weise testimony here on youtube called 23 minutes in hell.
A vision or even 100 visions should not take precedence over scripture though wouldn't you agree? An a vision is usually symbolic, hence being a vision.
I believe in an eternal Hell. If we have to discuss s or debate whether something is true, then most likely it's true. Hell is frightening. This is why I believe the Bible. Man would not create this concept on his own. The idea of an eternal Hell would have to come from outside of our existence. Only a transcendent being like God would warn us of such a horrendous judgement.
New Testament story of Lazarus being treated well because he suffered in this life. Then the other guy dead but aware wanting water and to tell his brothers about it.
Luke 16 is about the intermediate state. The word used in the passage is hades, which we know will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20). Lastly, the appeal to tell his brothers is the final point of evidence that demonstrates that this is not discussing the eternal state after the final judgement. People who believe in CI do acknowledge there will be pain and suffering for those who do not repent and believe, but that it will not be eternal, but that ultimately they will suffer the “second death” (Rev 20) and be destroyed forever
Definitely interesting.. gonna have to explore this more..but what is there to fear if death is final?.. I mean the one who destroys both body and soul would be mercy not fearsome to the wicked.. a lot of people today aren't worried about rejecting Christ because they believe that there is no eternity or hell..just wondering
RuckTrisch7 it is important to state that I do not believe in a conditionalist view of hell, that being said I’ll do my best to answer your question with their beliefs. if someone told you that you’re going to have to burn at the state for preaching to the gospel it would probably be something you would be afraid of. Even though the tournament is not eternal It still hurts. It’s still something worth fearing
Any one who is hanging off a cliff facing death will be in fear. Anyone facing the death penalty has something to fear. It's so bad, my country New Zealand has outlawed the death penalty. Even mass murderers can't be given the death penalty. It is deemed to be too severe.
@@Mrm1985100 fear of death I believe comes from the innate knowledge of eternity...and not being right with God..I just felt that eliminating hell makes death less fearsome..I have atheist friends who claim not to fear death because of just ceasing to exist...
@@RuckTrisch7 It's a valid point to a certain degree even though I think most people are deeply afraid of death: Hebrews 2:15 says that Jesus came so that he: "might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives". Some claim to not fear death but are really lying to themselves. It is true that others commit suicide but it's a minority and normally linked to mental problems. That being said fear of death/destruction is definitely different from the fear of eternal conscious torment. It changes the way one approaches the gospel. For me annihilationsim places much more emphasis on a person's desire to be with God (love) and much less on one's terror of eternal torment.
beginning to accept conditionalism until I had a very real nightmare. I died and went to heaven. I looked around for my beloved son and he was no where to be found. When I asked God where my son was. God said he no longer existed. The grief I felt was so extreme and in my bones that to this day I can still feel it. When I woke up I knew conditionalism was not something I could believe in. I do agree that the scripture supports it more than eternal torment. Either way, God looses and Satan wins with these two views.
I’m so sorry for your loss! You must really miss him. And that really is horrific - whether continuous torment or no longer existing. But I want to ask you why you believe neither is true? Reading your story, it seems like because you felt grief in response to the revelatory dream, you stopped believing. What does that say about reality? Do we stop believing things when they make us sad? No, life is full of grief and sadness in response to its harsh reality. But we can find comfort in God and in the hope that in the next life, there will be no more tears and no more pain. Perhaps the grief you feel can be a positive driving force to tell others about Jesus (the gospel) so they won’t suffer any terrible fate (whether torture or annihilation).
@@sierrahultgren945 My son is still alive, but is in the occult- gnostic . He has schizophrenia. Please pray for us and his salvation. I don’t doubt Jesus. It’s all the theories of hell that gives me great anxiety. How can I believe in a God that would eternally torment or annihilate my son? Or allow him to torment himself for an eternity? I want to believe there will be great healing and restoration in our next life. In a sense we are all mentally I’ll and deluded- blind and acting out of self preservation instincts. I can only hope, that we will be completely free someday, and rescued by our Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ.
The problem with conditionalism is justice. As Jesus clearly stated, some would receive "greater condemnation" than other unbelievers. No matter the judgement God imposes upon anyone what difference would it make if they were annihilated? If Hitler was simply annihilated there was no justice considering the severity of his evil actions.
How is it just for someone to do shifty things for 60 years then accept Jesus. Then little ole granny jw or Mormon spends her life doing good to others so Jesus can torture her forever. Your thinking is immoral just like your trash god.
@@shawnjohnson280 well because God makes it clear that trying to buy salvation through good works just proves that you are a self-righteous person. It actually makes a lot of sense. What could our good deeds mean to an infinite God? All God requests is for us to admit that we are not good and put our trust in Christ. It's literally the simplest thing you could do. Pride is what keeps people from doing this.
God makes the standards and if all knowing he allows people to be born into cultures of other religions then become deaply indoctrinated and then requires them to break out of all this or they're his enemy. Lol. God creates his own enemies then tortures them. Nice shit God you have. No thanks. Even he was real he's trash.
@@shawnjohnson280 it's possible that God arranged the world in such a way that people who grow up in false religions wouldn't have believed in the Gospel anyway. The Bible does say that God chooses where He puts people in time and location.
The problem with pretty much all the verses quoted in this, is that destroyed does not imply nor necessitate annihilation. Archeologists are constantly finding the shattered remains are vases that were destroyed thousands of years ago, and yet they still exist. So likewise, a person who is dashed to pieces in God's wrath, and consigned to the lake of fire, would rightly be considered destroyed, without necessitating that they cease to exist, or that they are somehow not consciously experiencing their own ongoing destruction. As for the topic of immortality. Immortality is not about duration, it is about incorruptibility. A person can exists forever and not be immortal, in fact that is traditional view held in Christianity, and was also the view held by many other near eastern religions and the Greeks etc. Immortality is the way in which we escape the eternal torments.
Aren't we being too rational, that we forget God's judgment is supernatural? The very fact that a worm is found in fire, yet does not die. Do we forget that everyone who has ever existed on earth is still living in eternal death or life in the spirit realm, except those physically living on earth, think about how long men and even Angels have existed. Jesus said emphatically said it would be forever Mark 9:43,44 Rev 20:10 how do you explain forever and ever , even the Greek says the same
The main push back on this "conditionalist idea to hell is what it implies about the atonement of Jesus death. Hebrews 2:9. "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." If "death" or perishing is equated with ceasing to exist.. then it follows implicatedly that Jesus tasted a "ceasing to exist" for everyone on the cross. But he was raised on the third day (so it wasnt a ceasing) so he didn't really tasted death for everyone. If death is taken as physical death then why do Christians still physically died.
The issue with your argument is that you just say "death" but the bible talks about the first death and the second death. The first death is regular death, the one through which Jesus went through for us. And the second death is the punishment after being judged in front of the great white throne. So only the second death is ceasing to exist and so this changes nothing to what Jesus did on the cross. Jesus was not thrown in the lake of fire. Only the unrighteous will be.
have you guys heard the testimony or read the book 23 minutes in hell by bill weise ? pretty wild and the dude has bunch of scripture to back his experience. u guys should have him on
Part 2 please!
The pinned comment should be the link to part 2.
Great discussion!
The last 2 1/2 years i have gone thru a similar slow study of my own.
After going to church my entire life, i finally realized i could not put The Gospel into my own words. I began to study what it is and what it is not. I learned about the origins/teachings of the NAR, the Word of Faith, the emergent church, and the influence of new age in the church.
I was appauled by how many of those twisted teachings i believed. I repented and am developing a more Biblical simplified belief.
I now call myself a conservative Pentecostal, and i am amazed by how many different views & ways to believe the scriptures. Everyone can validate their views, at least to themselves. Even tho Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, people sure have a million ways to intepret His word. The Truth is not as black and white as one would think.
Speaking of conservative Pentecostals, there is good reason to believe that Charles Parham himself was an annihilationist:
rethinkinghell.com/2019/07/09/charles-fox-parham-father-of-modern-pentecostalism-and-annihilationist/
Thank you Betty I hope we have helped.
I think the parable about Lazarus and the Rich man's point is centered around the words of Abraham saying "even if someone comes back from the dead they will not believe"... it was alluding to the fact that someone was about to go to the grave and return and even so countless will still not believe. Jesus was sort of prophesying about Himself and what He was about to do
The doctrine of eternal torment did not become Orthodoxy until after five centuries after Christ which gives me pause to examine it further.
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
I guess it depends on what Ignatius believed about the term "unquenchable fire" ? I can see how one would read this (and other comments from early church fathers) and come to believe the early church believed hell was eternal.
The Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs categorizes quotes from early church fathers by topic. That is where I got the quote below and have actually read all the early church father's in their original works up to Taitian. I'm skipping him because I really want to read Tertullian...
There is nothing in the phrase "unquenchable fire" that indicates eternal duration. To quench a fire means to put it out. It means to extinguish it. A fire that is not stopped but dies out after burning everything up has not been quenched. Therefore, an unquenchable fire is simply one that cannot be extinguished. Whether it eventually dies out or burns forever is not indicated by the phrase "unquenchable fire."
We know in the Old Testament God speaks of earthly fires that will not be quenched, sich as Ezekiel 20:47.
@@MetalSandman999 Very good point.
@@MetalSandman999 I'm fully aware of how Edward Fudge views "unquenchable fire" but the question is did the father quoted use Edward Fudge's lense or an eternal torment lense when throwing out that statement?. The problem is we do not know what "lense" he used when using that term out because he doesn't define 'unquenchable fire" but assume the readers would know. that is my entire point..both sides can raise their hand and try to garner support for the early church fathers. We do know that the flames will never be 'quenched' because Revelations 20:9-10 clearly states that. The question is who will be in that lake of fire for all eternity? Good question and I'm still on the fence. Edward Fudge makes a pretty good case but I'm not willing to jump in yet...
Man, this is very intriguing! I have had some of these thoughts over the years , never really addressed them. I want to thank remnant radio for having the courage to discuss these topics like this!!
Yes I think many people have wrestled with the hell doctrine , I mean, how can you not! I am a born and raised Catholic so yeah!
Jude 1:7 talks about sodom and gomorrah undergoing eternal fire but that doesn't mean they are still burning but they were destroyed.
But if ECT is right, the people of Sodom could still be burning today in Hell. So the argument assumes the same thing it’s trying to prove
Interesting discussion. I agree with Jordan. Historically, the doctrine of eternal torment began in Greek mythology. Then, the Roman Catholics adopted it to keep their members in bondage to fear. And many of our modern Bibles, which were originally translated from the Greek largely by Roman Catholics, confused the terms "Sheol," "Hades," and "Hell," obscuring the issue. Sadly, the vast majority of non-Catholic Christians have bought into that doctrine. Careful exegesis reveals that the place of torment is Sheol or Hades, but Gehenna, translated "Hell," is the place of destruction. Also, the Hebrew ('olam) and Greek (aion) terms translated "forever," do not refer to timeless eternity. They refer to a long, indefinite period of time, but not to timeless eternity. Finally, as Jordan mentioned, Yeshua said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, but fear Him who can DESTROY [not "torment"] the body and the soul in Hell (Mat 10:28)." Yes, incredible torment is in store for the unredeemed in Sheol or Hades, but not when, after the final judgment, they are destroyed in Hell or the Lake of Fire ("Hell" in Revelation 20:14 in the KJV should be "Hades").
Actually the King James Bible has hell correct. Hell is nothing but Sheol passed down to English via Germani Icandic a Sheol becomes shoal shell Hell holle hole hollow hall passing into a dialectic hard "h" becoming cell this is from etymology when races intermingle so the king James translators are aeons beyond modern imbecile translators who get it totally wrong the greek hades is NOTHING like what the Hebrew scriptures portray by either Sheol or Jesus by Gehenna when Jesus spoke of the rich man being in hades he was very obviously ridiculing a common rabbinic parable that adopted Pagan greek platonic views because they "refused to believe Moses or the scriptures.
Have Jordan back on again, i myself have been on this path of study for a while. John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 were eye openers for me. Either you perish / die or inherit ever lasting life
Totally agree brother. Check out Rethinking Hell on UA-cam or Facebook
Excellent presentation Jordan. Well done brother. Biblical, humble, and logical all at the same time. You did a great job!
Thank you for such an interesting, great and respectful conversation.
What's really sad in disappointing? Is that nobody at any point in this video, of which I have watched in entirety, addressed the fact that "for ever and ever" is a mistranslation of "for ages."
I would love to put this subject on my list of things I want to study more in-depth!
One thing I notice when we evangelize to the lost... Is, if you tell them "eternal torment," they're more likely to be concerned. But, if you tell them you'll cease to exist; they don't really care as much and just shrug their shoulders and say, "oh well."
So, I like to warn them of both consequences.
The Greek word translated as hell in English is hades. Gehenna is a place of destruction which was a dump outside Jerusalem which was always burning. Some bibles translate that too as hell.
Hell just means the grave where people go when they die. Jesus went there too.
Looking at it logically:
For God to torment someone forever, He will have to first give them the GIFT of eternal life and then torture them.
Makes no sense.
Edward Fudge has great videos on youtube and books on conditionalism. Recommend!
I would love to hear a discussion on the the description in Revelations 20 about ever and ever or age and age in the Greek and how it is actually possibly referring to space not time. Where it could be translated that the smoke goes from Earth all the way up to heaven. The way the Greek word translated age to age is a difficult word study I would appreciate a discussion on this 🤔 50:39
Bring on Robin Parry who has done so much scholarship on Ultimate Reconciliation/Christian Universalism. He is a great resource. Love these conversations to foster open discussion.
Yes, please bring Jordan back for Part 2! I’ve been debating this a lot with someone at my church.
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th.
Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode.
After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
Awesome sister. This truth needs to be told. The tradition has infected the church long enough.
debating?
Did it ever happen?@@TheRemnantRadio
I missed this one! I'll have to listen to it as soon as possible!
Hope you enjoy it! By the way, I got your boy booked. He will be on in like 7 days. I am really looking forward to the apostolic succession conversation.
@@TheRemnantRadio can't wait!
Yes, please, part two!
We have two more episodes booked for September 9th and September 16th. with various guests.
Yes! I truly believe that this understanding will break the shackles that have bound the church from sharing the Gospel with confidence and joy. "In your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…"
This was an amazing and eye opening conversation. Much comfort was brought. Is there a part 2?
I think there is definitely an appeal from within our hearts that the consequences of sin would not be eternal. It is a difficult concept to meditate on, but I feel like there is a lot of scooting around verses here to avoid what scripture implies if not outright teaches. One plain verse that was not brought up was Daniel 12:2 - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." It appears that the contempt for those who are not found in Christ will be eternal. The word used for contempt is only used in one other passage in the scriptures, one that I believe was brought up and dismissed, Isaiah 66:24 - “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” Both passages clearly are speaking of those resurrected at the end, one speaks of the length of contempt, and the other speaks of what that contempt means with reference to the worm and fire. Then that same language is used by Jesus in the New Testament repeatedly to warn those about the fate of the ungodly... why would Jesus use that language with concepts of worm never sleeping and fire never quenched if this punishment were only temporary? It doesn't make sense. Clearly, this is a secondary issue, but I don't know that the scriptures could be more clear if you simply read them in context and imagine what the hearers were intended to take away.
LOL
To piggybackmon what The Hell Project said, the consequences of sin are eternal if annihilationism is true.
Whether you sin or not - or in practice, whether your sins or forgiven or not - affects whether you live forever with God in the kingdom of heaven ot whether you burn up in a raging fire and are gone forever.
Those are pretty different fates, and the difference remains throughout eternity. Those who die the second death will never rise from the dead again. Their death is forever.
Consequences are eternal because you either enter life or death, and once you do, it's forever.
As alluded to in the response below, the claim that there are eternal consequences for unrepentant sin is entirely consistent with conditional immortality. There is no coming back from the second death (as per 33:00 - 34:10 in the video).
Moreover, as bad as sin is, to grant the gift of eternal life to someone simply for the purpose of keeping them alive so they can be tortured for all eternity is neither consistent with love, nor with justice.
@@TheRemnantRadiowhat is the LOL for? That seem a rude to a valid point
Hitler died in 1945…would you say contempt for him has been perpetual since? Basically grammar dictates that the entities feeling contempt are alive (ie, the verse is definitely not saying the condemned feel contempt for themselves. No, it’s the righteous feeling contempt for the wicked & that contempt can exist eternally, even after the wicked are no more.
Secondly, in the very passage you quote from Isaiah, that very verse says they look on the DEAD bodies. They aren’t observing living bodies conscious of being tormented.
I appreciate the conversation guys, even though it's 4 years old. PLEASE MAKE A LINK TO PART 2 THE PINNED COMMENT. Or put it in the description.
First and foremost. Love what you guys are doing and even though I don't share your same views exactly I am proud to call you brothers in Christ. On the topic, the only part that I would probably push back on a little bit is the fact that the fear of God is the begining of wisdom, and I think within that fear, I've always felt the reality of hell, and a place I don't want to end up . and like you said, that may be something that we have just believe traditionally, and haven't really invested much time into studying . But I would say the reality of eternal punishment has been something that really was the driving force behind my surrendering to Christ and the hope of eternal life in heaven . Look forward to another interview. Diving in deeper. God bless you guys.
Thanks for covering this topic.
Part 2 pleaseeeeee!!
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th.
Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode.
After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
Part 2 For Sure...would love for y'all to have Jordan back for another episode!
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th.
Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode.
After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
David Pawson's book, "The Road To Hell" does a great job, using scholarship, to argue for Eternal Conscious Torment. It's a small book. One of the highlights is that it explains the meaning of the word 'destruction', and what is its most common use in Scripture.
I’ve read a lot of scripture and done quite a bit of Bible study, however, I believe imo that it makes sense that in order for God to have to have his Kingdom on Earth he would have to annihilate the wicked and have his own people there in order to have peace on Earth. I do believe that the grandiose Platonic imagery did introduce a lot of false doctrine and it was indoctrinated into scripture along with others I.e. Dante’s Divine Comedy, which btw, I didn’t find comedic or amusing at all.
At 31:03 he talked about Judith. I do not know if this is the only reference to eternal suffering but here this verse is.
Judith 16:17 (NRSV): 17 Woe to the nations that rise up against my people!
The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment;
he will send fire and worms into their flesh;
they shall weep in pain forever.
35:24 weeping and gnashing of teeth he said means angry. Hippocrates used the word as a physical manifestation not emotional. Specifically symptomatic of chills. But mostly it does mean an emotional response
39:07 - Luke 16 - Lazarus and Rich Man
In addition to the post I made about just what a lousy, wild paraphrase "forever and ever" is from the actual Greek text, which literally translated would be "Unto the age of the ages", the phrase "forever and ever" by definition MUST be taken figuratively as it's literally impossible to add anything to infinity or eternity. It's nonsensical, which gives credence to the idea that it's just apocalyptic/hyperbolic speech. But again, it's the translators that inserted that wildly hyperbolic paraphrase into the text to begin with.
As anyone knows, Revelation is by far THE most figurative, mystical book in the Bible. It's also the LAST book in the Bible. We can ALL agree that IF God is to be even remotely fair AND He would create such a severe, incomprehensible punishment as eternal torture in one of THE most painful experiences(burning with fire) possible, then he would need to
1. State the punishment up front
2. State it CLEARLY, not use figurative or hyperbolic speech, let alone speech that would mean the exact opposite of what He really means(ie death means living forever in a horrific state, or burned up or consumed actually means NEVER being burned up or consumed but experiencing the process for all eternity, or the wages of sin IS death, but REALLY means eternal life in torment)
3. State if OVER AND OVER again, just to make sure it sinks in.
ECT violates ALL three of those, while Annihilationism fits ALL three to a T!
God stated up front to Adam, IF he eats the fruit, he WILL die. Then when he ate of it, God told him, from the dust of the ground you came, to the dust you will return. Note he didn't say, now you're going to burn for all eternity.
Then from that point on, over and over and over, the fate of the wicked is stated as, death, burned up, destroyed, perished, consumed, be no more, even CEASE TO EXIST FOREVER! (Ezekiel 28:19)
There is not ONE verse that EVER specifically mentions eternal torment, and only 1 that mentions being tormented "forever and ever" but it's the LAST book of the Bible, it's the most figurative book of the Bible, it's using a translation that is actually a wild paraphrase AND the paraphrase can NOT be taken literally, as it's a nonsensical statement IF taken literally AND it specifically mentions ONLY three entities.
LOL at the weeping and gnashing of teeth. THAT happens at the judgment. People in horrific pain SCREAM, they don't weep or gnash their teeth. As mentioned, those are actions from sadness or anger.
I am very worried about where I will end up, I am really struggling with my physical and mental health, I have constant burning on my eyes and head and chronic tinnitus, I have had a lot of head injuries in my past when I left the military I got into very bad living and drug use so I have been very sinful in that respect, I’ve alway worked hard and tried to provide for my family but there’s a disconnect of my heart and after I had cerebral malaria my mental health has declined, I have very little memory I feel paper thin and I have intrusive thoughts which really upset me. I am always at the doctors and have tried lots of ways to heal and better myself. I am very worried about my future, all I want to do is heal and feel love in my heart but my illness won’t allow me. Please help me
Praying for you brother. I'm in the same boat kind of
@@Rene-gv3qx thanks man appreciate it, I need a miracle. Hope you’re doing the best you can
Brother
I have this reponse. Christ loves you. He is aware of all you have gone through, He has experienced all the pain you have experienced. Your life is important to Him and he desires your companionship with Him in a world where are your issues will be gone because His grace will heal you from them all. Trust Christ and ask for his grace. The consequences of our sin in this life may sometimes remain with us, but we are looking for another home. Keep your eyes upward and you will be healed by Jesus ( if not in this life) when He returns. Do not become discouraged, but trust Him more fully.
God bless you
Christian Brother
Praying for you. There is healing for PTSD. Embrace the fact that nothing can separate you from the love of God not even your own sins, run to the cross. I don't want to minimize ur pain with christianese as if it's easy. I pray u know u are so very loved.
Part 2 with Jordan please!
Will Do I have a part two scheduled with Jeff Jenkins. He will be giving a case for Eternal conscious torment That episode will be September 9th.
Jordan will come back on September 16th to do a part 3 on conditionalism. This will give him an opportunity to respond to jeffs critiques, also to finish anything he may not have been able to in this episode.
After that, we hope to get both of them to participate in a friendly unformal debate.
Can you discuss/comment, in Part Two, on how this view has sometimes been combined, and hence dismissed as heresy, with the false teaching of soul sleep? We were taught both soul sleep and nihilism in the cult of Armstrongism growing up and have really wrestled with the concept of hell since being saved, especially since mainline Christians just accept eternal conscious torment without question, as you have pointed out here. Thanks for your time and consideration. Your approach to this and other doctrinal topics is much appreciated.
Annihilism, I meant...
D&P D I will ask him about this.
I would like to get in contact with Jordan Sutton if that is possible. I have some fresh insights on conditional immortality that I would love to share with him.
Yaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssss!! I'm so frustrated with how many times I have been deemed "heretical" for my view of CI. Ive gotten to the point where I never talk about it anymore. We recently moved and started going to a new church that started a series on heaven/hell right after we started going. My husband mentioned my view to the pastor who got EXTREMELY concerned and treated me as a Universalist. He brought me a copy of "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan...not having any understanding that Preston Sprinkle has said CI is relavent. Sigh...
Ann Lowry Where did you guys move to?
We moved to Battle Creek Michigan. Here is a funny thing though...Battle Creek is like the mecca of all things 7th Day Adventist. Their founders lived here and are burried here. The 7th Day Adventists hold a CI view of hell. Unfortunately that causes Protestant churches to get all up in arms about it without actually giving it a look.
Amen sister. You are biblical, and Preston Sprinkle who co-wrote that book with Francis Chan is definitely in the CI camp. Your view is Biblical truth. I bet the Catholics called Martin Luther a heretic. Glad he was!
I totally understand that. I live in Alabama (a.k.a. the Bible belt) and I am a believer in conditional immortality and annihilatonism. You will be hated and shunned by all the conservative southern Baptists around here if you express those views. Fortunately, the area I live in isn't super southern anymore and has gotten a lot of transplants, so even though the majority of churches here are still super traditional Baptist or Churches of Christ, there are others as well. I sometimes attend an Anglican church that doesn't preach "fire and brimstone" sermons, and although their doctrine doesn't officially teach annihilationism, they seem to be more open/tolerant of it. We do also have a fairly significant Seventh Day Adventist population here (and actually, my next door neighbors are Adventists). While I don't agree with some of the doctrines, I have found them to be really lovely people, and they do have the correct teaching on hell!
I recommend *Shepherd's Chapel* channel right here on UA-cam. They're a great ministry, in my opinion, that also teach CI and their channel puts out 24/7 Bible teaching streams.
Chris Date is one of the for most experts on CI since Dr. Fudge's passing. Please check him out at rethinkinghell.com
Chris is awesome and has a live show every Monday US time. Tuesday 3pm New Zealand time.
I came to this conclusion while thinking about black holes. If you watch another person fall into a black hole, you will see them approach the event horizon infinitely slowly, because of how light leaving a black hole slows down. You will never see them arrive. The person, however, will see very little, as they fall in and are infinitely squished into a singularity or whatever happens in there.
From the outside, their existence is infinite, from the inside, finite.
I thought, 'if God sustains our existence by His very attention and word, then to be forgotten about or ignored by God would be deletion. But a continuing being (not infinite, just would have kept going) being will somehow experience this deletion forever."
So I came to the conclusion it is a fire which consumes forever, from the point of view of the consumee, and a fire which consumes instantly from the point of view of the consumer.
That is exactly how I make sense of it as well. Except, I thought whoever has fallen into the hole experiences destruction as eternal as time dilates infinitely.
I understand the view, but I cannot take the translation or the blatant disregard of phrases like " no rest" or "torment forever and ever" and ignore it. I am just hearing too much grasping at straws type of excuses for some of the things he is reading. I don't want eternal torment to be true! But If it is true it is what it is. The revelation scriptures really defeat it in my opinion. Also the Isiah scripture does as well. Especially the " and they will find no rest" . Sounds awful!! Jesus save us! Thank you for presenting the viewpoint. I do appreciate it and look forward to the 2nd video
I totally agree. I think he is too hung up on the idea of Eternal life being the same as immortality. They are not the same. The bible definition of life is when we are united with God (now and in heaven) and death is being separated from God (now and in hell).
I think he is too hung up on the idea of Eternal life being the same as immortality. They are not the same. Humans are not eternal but he have an eternal spirit that will be forever in heaven or hell. Not to mention, the bible definition of life is when we are united with God (now and in heaven eternally) and death is being separated from God (now and in hell). We see that in Ephesians 2.... "we were dead in sins but are now alive unto Christ." Same in colossians. This is clearly not talking about human life since we all had a pulse before we came to salvation. This is about being separated from God (dead to God) vs connect to God (Alive and responsive to him)
Those in hell face an eternal death, meaning they will be forever separated from God because they rejected His free gift of His son Jesus who saves.
This does not make God unloving, he is a righteous and perfect judge... if you sin and go against God, you face judgement. Just the same as we don't think it wrong for a natural judge to send someone to prison for a crime. The wages of sin is death (separation from God) -- we will all die a natural death even if we live for Jesus.... but the true death is the one separate from God.
BEABEREAN - Separation from God is one kind of 'death' spoken of in the Bible, that's true. But the Bible also speaks of actual death as in oblivion - see Ecclesiastes 9:5-6. In Christ we are being saved from both - the separation from God and also the 'last enemy'.
And where in the Bible does it say that we have an eternal spirit apart from God?
I tend to believe in eternal punishment but not eternal torment.
A final death from which one cannot return is about as eternal a punishment as there could be.
The "Forever and ever" line, used 3 times in revelation is NOT in the Greek text.
The reason Rev 20:10 and Rev 14:11 are so misleading is the LOUSY translation of the actual Greek phrase "eis ho aion eis ho aion" as "Forever and Ever." "Forever and ever" isn't just a lousy translation, it's a wild paraphrase.
Eis means to, into, unto, towards, etc.
Ho, just means, this, that, the, etc
Aion means, age, period of time, world and CAN mean forever.
But there is no way to arrange the meaning of those FIVE words into Forever and Ever.
A more direct translation would be, Unto the age of the ages. Which would be a perfect fit for the verse I quoted in Luke, where Jesus mentioned “only those found WORTHY to ATTAIN to THAT AGE!”
The devil and his angels will be destroyed in the lake of fire and burn UNTO THE AGE OF THE AGES, in other words UNTIL the new heavens and earth, where there will be no more sorrow, no more night(so clearly, they can’t burn night and day for eternity, as there won’t be any more night in the NEW and final AGE of the AGES).
But the proof that phrase isn't meant to denote eternity, is the fact that one, they could have just said eternity, but also the fact that Rev 19 uses the exact same phrase to talk about the smoke of Babylon rising "forever and ever", which no one believe Babylon will be restored in the NEW heaven and earth, just so it can continue to smoke for all eternity.
I realize this is two years too late but, it sounds like he wants to build a case around the OT statements.. but what about the words of the Lord Himself? ......................... Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." ........ How does he reconcile such a position with these verses ?
I hear you. Fair question. But that verse does not say the people will always be alive
Have Jordan back on!!!
In Revelation 20 where the Beast, the Devil and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire it is after 1,000 years, does this apply to the Church Age?
Yes, do a part 2.
Have Jordan back on 👍
The main punishment of Hell is the state of self-exclusion from God.
The Bible makes it perfectly clear what Hell is.
*The Bible makes it perfectly clear **--what Hell is--** that there is no such place as hell.*
@@IsaacNussbaum Are you using a Bible that was invented in the 16th century?
@@aussierob7177 Thank you for your question, Rob. I use 33 different translations in my Bible studies and have between a half-hour and one and a half hours of Bible study each day.
I would love to watch either John Walton or Inspiring Philosophy discuss this topic.
I checked out his stuff on youtube. He is quite popular. Do you happen to know him?
@@TheRemnantRadio Are you referring to Inspiring Philosophy? If so, yes, I know him. He calls me his #1 fan. What would you like for me to do to get him on the show?
@@TheRemnantRadio If you were referring to John Walton, Inspiring Philosophy knows him. You may be able to reach John Walton through Inspiring Philosophy.
I meant John Walton, I have not yet looked into "Inspiring Philosophy". clearly, you are a fan of both? LOL
@@TheRemnantRadiolol, I am very grateful for both. I have several books written by John Walton. Inspiring Philosophy interviewed John Walton last year on his channel. Inspiring Philosophy is working on a Genesis series and John Walton reviews all of the videos of that series before they are uploaded to UA-cam.
How can they pay accoding to thier works of 70 or 80 years forever and in hades torments they suffer and then at the final day they are anihillated in the lake of fire ya dig
Bring him back!
Listening in the UK. I have only recently discovered Remnant radio and would like to say just how interesting and riveting and helpful I have found what I have watched: thank you! With respect, one thing to pick up here: it is a common misconception to claim that the Rev John Stott advocated annihilationism. In fact, he wrote in his book ‘Essentials,’ (a dialogue with a liberal counterpart) that he would accept annihilationism as a credible reading of the relevant Scriptures, (a statement that got him in a lot of bother), but he never wrote that he embraced this view personally.
Very interesting discussion, this is an issue I want to delve into more. A side note here, though it is not directly pertinent to this discussion, Dr. Fudge being Church of Christ does give me pause for concern. From what I understand, Church of Christ, at least traditionally, did think they were the one, true restored church, and that one needed a regenerative, believer’s baptism within the structure of the Church of Christ to be saved. They also do not believe in original sin from what I understand. The podcast, Cultish, from Apologia Church did an episode on this a while back which is where I’m drawing a lot of this from. Still, a good and insightful episode.
Outstanding! There are countless other OT & NT verses that support the view he presents.
What did Jesus say about hell people?
LOVE this channel! Only one constructive criticism: trying to deal with the live calls takes away from the show
One or two people have said this as well. But it seems to generate an interest with people who are watching live. We will consider postponing phone calls and see how that affects the show.
thanks for the opinion. These kinds of criticisms are helpful.
@@TheRemnantRadio I agree with donorush. The phone calls can kill the flow of the show. I like the hosts taking questions via the chat and filtering them into a concise question then letting the answers delineate the possible clarifications.
Note to self: attempting to debate without first really engaging the topic and doing one's homework leads to what we see here.
Now it is time to invite Robin Parry... :)
The Roman church uses the Lazuras passage as a proof for purgatory. Some would argue that it is a refining fire.
So another late question for anyone that may be looking on here still. My question isn't based on any scripture rather the lost and their present attitude. Those who are in complete rebellion always say I will live like I want and indulge in whatever pleasure I choose and when my life is over I go back to dust. If in the end that is what happens and there is no eternal consequences where its darkness/separation from God of eternal fire, then what is there to avoid from their standpoint? I understand they are missing out on eternal joy/peace of life with God but if they cease to exist after they are judged then it seems anticlimactic in some ways.
Apart from the fact that they'll be missing out on an unimaginably incredible eternity with God, I believe that the Bible indicates there will be degrees of punishment for each person before they perish completely. It's not like unrepentant sinners are going to just do whatever they like and not suffer the just consequences for their own deeds. I don't think someone like Mao Zedong is going to suffer equally to someone like a common thief. But ultimately, it ends in their complete destruction and them being blotted out of existence. No amount of sin or the severity of sins committed in this temporary life would warrant a fate such as that of eternal conscious torment and agony. The wages of sin is death.
Yeah conditionalism is kinda nihilistic if you think about it
Doesn’t it say that death and he’ll are thrown into the lake of fire?
Matthew 25:46 uses the exact same word for eternity when stating how long the ones who are punished will endure the punishment and the righteous will enjoy life. Same context, same verse, same Greek word.
As for punishment goes, it is the eternal separation from God that is the punishment. Conscious, eternal. Imagine having full and complete knowledge of who God is and what you were offered in your physical existence but you refused, then having eternal knowledge that you will be in separation from experiencing the presence of God. You would want to cease to exist but you can't. You would want to die but your soul is eternal. Eternal separation from the love of God and the enjoyment of Him with absolute full and complete knowledge that it was you that chose to reject His offer of eternity with Him would be more tormenting than anything I can imagine. And the torment is self inflicted. You chose not to accept Christ. You made the choice to reject Him. He us simply giving you the end result if your choice.
I would argue that the fact that the word "eternal" is used for both punishment and life in Matthew 25:46 does not prove that hell is a place of eternal conscious suffering because annihilation can be rightly called "eternal punishment."
For more on that see below (as well as other articles on the topic at Rethinkinghell.com) ;)
rethinkinghell.com/2014/01/15/matthew-2546-does-not-prove-eternal-torment-part-1/
@@TheHellProject It actually doesn't if we understand that this is just the beginning of the torment due to receiving the full knowledge of the consequences of their earthly choice to reject God. This is just the beginning of the eternal separation. The knowledge that they have chosen incorrectly and that it can never be reversed will take place in the presence of the angels and the Lamb but the consequence of that choice will be eternal and will be carried out away from the presence of God. It fits perfectly.
@@MetalSandman999 A punishment that cannot be experienced is no punishment at all. If a court finds you guilty of a crime and sentences you to twenty years in prison but you aren't there for the trial and the sentencing and can't be out in jail for even a moment because you're in a country that will not extradite you, you will never experience that punishment for even a moment. The ruling is set and the punishment is valid but it is of no consequence to you since you cannot feel the intended result of the court's decision. The same is true for a soul that has ceased to exist. It cannot feel the weight of the decision made in this life and therefore doesn't experience the punishment.
@@TheHellProject Are you really arguing that man can punish in the same way as God? I sure hope that we can draw a huge distinction between what God can issue as punishment and what man can issue as punishment. And we must (emphasis on must) understand that man's punishment of putting a person to death is temporal where Gods punishment is eternal.
Actually it does say that separation from God is involved in punishment. The story of Lazarus clearly shows that he was separated from God. I don't think there can be a more clear scripture than that. He asked for a drop of water on his tongue and was told that the chasm between him and the servant of God was such that no man can cross it. Put that together with scripture that the overcome will enjoy the presence of God for eternity and we can show that eternal separation from God is, at the very least, a part if the eternal punishment.
Even your understanding claims an eternal separation from God. You're claiming that the soul will cease to exist. This necessarily means that the soul will be eternally separated from God. So your issue isn't the separation, it's how the soul is separated. Does it cease to exist and therefore is eternally separated, or does it continue to exist and experience that separation? That's the only point of contention.
dlechuga The punishment of death by electric chair is no punishment at all?
Part 2 as well and maybe having some scholars that hold to universal salvation.
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ' Depart from me, you cursed, in to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
And Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
It's very important for every one to read the bible to "Test the spirits" to seek out the truth on every matter the Bible dose not support the concept of temporary punishment. On the contrary it conforms that Hell is not only the second death but clearly teaches that it's eternal.
Jude 1:7 talks about sodom and gomorrah undergoing eternal fire but that doesn't mean they are still burning but were destroyed.
Facts . Its a sobering and very biblical doctrine. Have you read Is Hell for Real ? Erik Raymond
Its a very sound and yet gracious book . And he even gives the different views
II Thess. 2:8 and John 3:16 are different words in Greek, perish and destroy.
Please get Erik Raymond who wrote Is Hell For Real ? And other questions about judgment, eternity and the God of Love .
I hope hell is annihilation, but the Bible in Revelation says "Whosoever's name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment rises FOREVER and they shall have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT. If the wicked are annihilated, then what does "No rest day or night" mean? Also, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, notice the rich man dies and immediately finds himself in torment in flames. He asks for water to cool his pain, but is told a great gulf prevents that. He then asks someone to warn his brothers. He is in tormenting pain, and is able to have a rational conversation. How does that in any way sound like annihilation? Literally or metaphorically?
Jesus is the tree of life. Only those who eat of the tree will inherit eternal life. Sinners, however, are not promised eternal life. They will not live forever. If they don't live forever, can they be tortured forever?
For 10 reasons why God won't burn people in hell forever check out this interview on the Hell Project's UA-cam channel @
Not sure if anyone will answer because this is from 2 years ago… but one of the main things not addressed in this discussion is the reality of two resurrections, and only those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed. There’s a second resurrection for those who did not believe in Jesus, who are considered “dead” and not in the book of Life…and they are cursed. They still receive a resurrected body… which means not a body of flesh like we have now, and then get cast into the lake of fire where the beast, dragon, and false prophet are. All this is in Revelation 20 where it specifically states the torment in the lake of fire is eternal. Torment- forever. We all receive new flesh… a new resurrected body. Some will receive everlasting life in that new body and others everlasting death. It would have been good if there were references specifically to the 2 resurrections, because that really changes things in this discussion. If a fire burns out when what is burning is consumed, then the fact that the fire is never quenched in “hell”means that there is always something present to burn. Just food for thought. I don’t think we understand the severity of our sin and rebellion against God. But just as there are different rewards for the blessed (various degrees of glory based on how we lived), so there are different levels of suffering in hell.
Hi Juli: I have done alot of research on this and church history regarding Revelations. Revelations is classed with other apocalyptic writings such as Daniel and others ouitside the Canon. Some conservative Christian theologians state that they would not use Revelations to create Church Dogma. It is highly hyperbolic and it barely made it into the canon. Even Martin Luther had his doubts about Revelations.
It is not my purpose to weaken your view of scripture but only to point out that Revelations is not a place to go searching for proof sources for ones views on a particular doctrine. The Canon was finally settled at about 400 A.D. Before that time it was understood that some books now in the Canon would not be used to establish church doctrine...and Revelations was one of them. However, that understanding was forgotten by the time the Canon was finalized. When the main force of scripture says that people will be destroyed or perish, it means that the whole person dies, body and soul. However, people go to Revelations to teach the opposite.
People who use Revelations to prove whatever point they want to make but never consider its history and/or are ignorant of this fact.
Revelations talks about the second death. That is for unbelievers who are resurrected for judgment. God's judgment will be just and it is believable that Hitler will be resurrected so that he will face the consequences of his actions in life, receive the many stripes he deserves, and finally experience the second death. He will receive his just punishment and then will be destroyed......no eternal torment not even for him for death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire.
I truly hope I have not confused you. I can provide the sources for this information if you are interested.
Kind Regards,
JP
The word "eternal" in Greek doesn't mean forever. It means for a period of time. For instance, if you keep touching a hot stove, you will burn your hand until you stop touching the hot stove. So, you will burn your hand eternally until you learn to stop touching the stove.
Einstein said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result." That is eternal.
I think Micheal Heiser would only recognize the Book of Enoch as it was written during the intertestemental period.
I believe most of the Apocrypha was written last after the 1st century and most of it can't be proven to have been round before or during the time of Jesus or the Epistles.
If I'm remembering correctly from Dr. Heiser, the Book Enoch (and the writing of Ben Sirach, the Book of Sirach) were found in the Dead Sea scrolls. But I need to double check.
Can you tell me if you're Calvints? I'm a former Calvinist (no I'm not an Armenian now or Universalist or semi palagian etc.) I'm seeking non Calvinist teachers who are Biblically sound. Please let me know if you can, thank you.
Open Theism: Jesse Morrell
God's Holiness does not allow for revenge. Also, scripture says only God is immortal and we don't put on immortality until we are with Jesus.
Also scripture says that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not people.
Part 2
"they have no rest day and night"
Jesus died on the cross for our sins in a day. A sinner in eternal hell would die a thousand days on the cross to avoid eternity in hell. The wages of sin is indeed death. Sinners will perish. John 3:16 Thank God!
One thing to point out from Jordans initial introduction into Conditionalism, Jordan mentions that God has removed eternal life from man and put that gift in Christ. I'm not an expert but I would say that in Genesis, man was never eternal in and of themselves, man needed the Tree of Life and Yahweh sent Adam and Eve out from the Garden of Eden thereby separating them from eternal life. I believe this is where people would originally be able to point out that humans are not eternal without Yahweh, only Yahweh is eternal.
This is my understanding of eternal life and death. Life and death is opposite just like light and darkness. You cannot say darkness is non-existent. Darkness is just the absence of light so it's still there whether you acknowledge it or not. Life is all the good things that is the presence of God such as love, strength, growth, light, water, air, etc. Hell is the grave and also a place where there is no presence of God, where there are unquenchable fires, and where there are worms that can't die. Death does not mean you die and become non-existent; because, after the body dies on Earth, the body goes back to being part of Earth, thus turning back into dust. The soul still exists and goes to the fiery Hell or Paradise. In Revelation, this death is called the first death. So if your soul still exists after the first death, I'm sure you're still existing after the second death, which is when every dead from the Sea and Hell will be judged and the wicked will be thrown into the Lake of Fire with Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet. How wonderful it is for Satan to never get to be tormented if you believe everyone is annihilated in the Lake of Fire. Satan is put in jail for one thousand years and is released for a season because it's a chance for him to repent. But we know he still won't repent. The Lake of Fire is the punishment and consequence of Satan's choice. He will get tormented day and night forever and ever in the Lake of Fire because angels are eternal spiritual beings that can't die. Where in the Bible does it says angels can die? It makes more sense that they are tormented forever than getting annihilated, that's why Jesus Christ came to die on the cross for you. If we're just going to get annihilated, then we can just do whatever we want and don't have to worry about getting tormented. We will just be poof, gone, we don't have to worry about the consequence at all because there will be no more pain and suffering. If you say God is only loving and merciful, then you don't know God. God can do whatever he wants because he is holy, just, and powerful. God can destroy, kill, punish, and torment if he has to, that's why everyone should fear God.
Jude 1:7 KJV
[7] "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Notice in the verse mentioned above, it did not say death, destruction, or annihilation because of God's eternal fire. It says "suffering" so it's not talking about how Sodom and Gomorrah are left desolate. It did not say as a result of his eternal fire so you can't argue, "Oh, his eternal fire has destroyed them so that means his eternal fire is annihilation because they and his eternal fire are not there anymore." That verse is using Sodom and Gomorrah's suffering as an example of how they suffer in his eternal fire.
You've got to understand that hell and the Lake of Fire are two separate and distinct places. Hell is temporary, but the Lake of Fire is permanent. Then you can argue about the Lake of Fire - it is everlasting - not eternal - again there is a distinct difference between everlasting and eternal. Are those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire conscience? Anyone and anything thrown into a Lake of Fire is destroyed.
The biggest problem I have with Eternal Conscious Torment is that a loving God surely wouldn't create our souls so we could suffer forever even by rejecting him. Surely no sin is so grievious as merit eternity in agony, and surely God did not create man for such a fate. Though I admit that justice to God is not necessarily what man would see as justice so if that's his will (ECT) he has good reason for it, I just don't believe it.
Ceasing to exist in both a physical and spiritual sense is a punishment when God promised eternal life with him to those that trusted in his promise. However my view is that you're not in the fires of divine punishment for all eternity but that you're cursed to live forever away from God's love if that's what you choose. I don't think God wants people who don't want him and those people get exactly what they deserve.
Guess it just depends on perspective. Problem I have with conditionalism is that unbelievers essentially just…cease to exist. Right? Any atheist will find solice in that because they don’t believe they will exist after death anyways.
So they just cease and that’s it.
Very nihilistic approach in my opinion.
Could it be accurate? Sure.
I just don’t see it as a costly wage when you compare it to life in heaven. Billions of people would be just fine to cease to be. And if that was God’s plan? Ok. Cool.
I sympathize with the idea of reconciling God against eternal punishment. What kind of God would set that up?
Well, same God who told ancient Israelites to murder women and children and infants of neighboring pagan tribes.
Surely anyone in modern day would take issue with that commandment, right?
And yet - while I don’t believe it was God’s intent for some of us made in His image - to be murdered at the infant level, it was still justice according to Him.
I don’t have a problem with eternal fire. I don’t wanna end up there. But I don’t see it as God’s creation. God didn’t creat evil - yet we are proclaiming what kind of God would let people suffer.
The whole thing is we get to choose.
This man right on the money. another thing the bible says death is wages for our sin and that is what JESUS did for us, he died in our place.if the wages for sin is forever torment than JESUS did not pay the price. and I am not belittling in noway the sacrafice JESUS made for us
Jesus paid the price for those who choose Him as their Lord and Savior. For those who refuse, eternal torment is your reward. The Bible and Christ's own words really can't make it any plainer
@@nativeson2633, perhaps sense we have so many denominations everything not so plain
John MacArthur has the right interpretation of Scripture just ask him.....just kidding!!!!
I've been taught that since I was a child and I'm 65 now. I believe you would be able to find it. It's not just Satan, demons, the antichrist and false prophet but all that reject God
ive heard over a 100 near death experience/dream/vision videos on heaven and hell. obviously cant believe everyone. but one thing i noticed there are a TON of similarities within peoples stories. ive heard plenty of stories of hell being a literal eternal torment that God allowed them to see. i don't like the idea of hell but that doesnt mean i get to decide its not eternal torment. judgment is way bigger than me and my preferences
do they feature demons torturing people in hell?
@@GnaReffotsirk yes ive heard quite a few people explain seeing that. i recomend looking up Bill Weise testimony here on youtube called 23 minutes in hell.
@@bfelt33 Do not go beyond what is written. Only because Bill says it does not mean it was right.
@@davidarmintannbaum6800 i dont understand what your saying ?
A vision or even 100 visions should not take precedence over scripture though wouldn't you agree? An a vision is usually symbolic, hence being a vision.
death is not the end....but a separation, ergo.....the second death....
I believe in an eternal Hell. If we have to discuss s or debate whether something is true, then most likely it's true. Hell is frightening. This is why I believe the Bible. Man would not create this concept on his own. The idea of an eternal Hell would have to come from outside of our existence. Only a transcendent being like God would warn us of such a horrendous judgement.
New Testament story of Lazarus being treated well because he suffered in this life. Then the other guy dead but aware wanting water and to tell his brothers about it.
Luke 16 is about the intermediate state. The word used in the passage is hades, which we know will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20). Lastly, the appeal to tell his brothers is the final point of evidence that demonstrates that this is not discussing the eternal state after the final judgement. People who believe in CI do acknowledge there will be pain and suffering for those who do not repent and believe, but that it will not be eternal, but that ultimately they will suffer the “second death” (Rev 20) and be destroyed forever
Definitely interesting.. gonna have to explore this more..but what is there to fear if death is final?.. I mean the one who destroys both body and soul would be mercy not fearsome to the wicked.. a lot of people today aren't worried about rejecting Christ because they believe that there is no eternity or hell..just wondering
RuckTrisch7 it is important to state that I do not believe in a conditionalist view of hell, that being said I’ll do my best to answer your question with their beliefs.
if someone told you that you’re going to have to burn at the state for preaching to the gospel it would probably be something you would be afraid of. Even though the tournament is not eternal It still hurts. It’s still something worth fearing
Any one who is hanging off a cliff facing death will be in fear. Anyone facing the death penalty has something to fear. It's so bad, my country New Zealand has outlawed the death penalty. Even mass murderers can't be given the death penalty. It is deemed to be too severe.
As if people are not afraid to die.
@@Mrm1985100 fear of death I believe comes from the innate knowledge of eternity...and not being right with God..I just felt that eliminating hell makes death less fearsome..I have atheist friends who claim not to fear death because of just ceasing to exist...
@@RuckTrisch7 It's a valid point to a certain degree even though I think most people are deeply afraid of death: Hebrews 2:15 says that Jesus came so that he: "might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives". Some claim to not fear death but are really lying to themselves. It is true that others commit suicide but it's a minority and normally linked to mental problems.
That being said fear of death/destruction is definitely different from the fear of eternal conscious torment. It changes the way one approaches the gospel. For me annihilationsim places much more emphasis on a person's desire to be with God (love) and much less on one's terror of eternal torment.
LITERALLY NO BEINGS WILL BE TORMENTED!
There's no time in Eternity.
beginning to accept conditionalism until I had a very real nightmare. I died and went to heaven. I looked around for my beloved son and he was no where to be found. When I asked God where my son was. God said he no longer existed. The grief I felt was so extreme and in my bones that to this day I can still feel it. When I woke up I knew conditionalism was not something I could believe in. I do agree that the scripture supports it more than eternal torment. Either way, God looses and Satan wins with these two views.
I’m so sorry for your loss! You must really miss him. And that really is horrific - whether continuous torment or no longer existing. But I want to ask you why you believe neither is true? Reading your story, it seems like because you felt grief in response to the revelatory dream, you stopped believing. What does that say about reality? Do we stop believing things when they make us sad? No, life is full of grief and sadness in response to its harsh reality. But we can find comfort in God and in the hope that in the next life, there will be no more tears and no more pain. Perhaps the grief you feel can be a positive driving force to tell others about Jesus (the gospel) so they won’t suffer any terrible fate (whether torture or annihilation).
@@sierrahultgren945 My son is still alive, but is in the occult- gnostic . He has schizophrenia. Please pray for us and his salvation. I don’t doubt Jesus. It’s all the theories of hell that gives me great anxiety. How can I believe in a God that would eternally torment or annihilate my son? Or allow him to torment himself for an eternity? I want to believe there will be great healing and restoration in our next life. In a sense we are all mentally I’ll and deluded- blind and acting out of self preservation instincts. I can only hope, that we will be completely free someday, and rescued by our Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ.
The problem with conditionalism is justice. As Jesus clearly stated, some would receive "greater condemnation" than other unbelievers. No matter the judgement God imposes upon anyone what difference would it make if they were annihilated? If Hitler was simply annihilated there was no justice considering the severity of his evil actions.
How is it just for someone to do shifty things for 60 years then accept Jesus. Then little ole granny jw or Mormon spends her life doing good to others so Jesus can torture her forever. Your thinking is immoral just like your trash god.
@@shawnjohnson280 well because God makes it clear that trying to buy salvation through good works just proves that you are a self-righteous person. It actually makes a lot of sense. What could our good deeds mean to an infinite God? All God requests is for us to admit that we are not good and put our trust in Christ. It's literally the simplest thing you could do. Pride is what keeps people from doing this.
How is someone who is indoctrinated in another religion prideful. That is ridiculous.
God makes the standards and if all knowing he allows people to be born into cultures of other religions then become deaply indoctrinated and then requires them to break out of all this or they're his enemy. Lol. God creates his own enemies then tortures them. Nice shit God you have. No thanks. Even he was real he's trash.
@@shawnjohnson280 it's possible that God arranged the world in such a way that people who grow up in false religions wouldn't have believed in the Gospel anyway. The Bible does say that God chooses where He puts people in time and location.
What about some say the beast and false prophet are actually human
The problem with pretty much all the verses quoted in this, is that destroyed does not imply nor necessitate annihilation. Archeologists are constantly finding the shattered remains are vases that were destroyed thousands of years ago, and yet they still exist. So likewise, a person who is dashed to pieces in God's wrath, and consigned to the lake of fire, would rightly be considered destroyed, without necessitating that they cease to exist, or that they are somehow not consciously experiencing their own ongoing destruction.
As for the topic of immortality. Immortality is not about duration, it is about incorruptibility. A person can exists forever and not be immortal, in fact that is traditional view held in Christianity, and was also the view held by many other near eastern religions and the Greeks etc. Immortality is the way in which we escape the eternal torments.
Aren't we being too rational, that we forget God's judgment is supernatural? The very fact that a worm is found in fire, yet does not die. Do we forget that everyone who has ever existed on earth is still living in eternal death or life in the spirit realm, except those physically living on earth, think about how long men and even Angels have existed. Jesus said emphatically said it would be forever Mark 9:43,44
Rev 20:10 how do you explain forever and ever , even the Greek says the same
The main push back on this "conditionalist idea to hell is what it implies about the atonement of Jesus death.
Hebrews 2:9.
"But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
If "death" or perishing is equated with ceasing to exist.. then it follows implicatedly that Jesus tasted a "ceasing to exist" for everyone on the cross. But he was raised on the third day (so it wasnt a ceasing) so he didn't really tasted death for everyone.
If death is taken as physical death then why do Christians still physically died.
The issue with your argument is that you just say "death" but the bible talks about the first death and the second death. The first death is regular death, the one through which Jesus went through for us. And the second death is the punishment after being judged in front of the great white throne. So only the second death is ceasing to exist and so this changes nothing to what Jesus did on the cross.
Jesus was not thrown in the lake of fire. Only the unrighteous will be.
Jesus tasted "death" not hell.
@@signpreach hell...the lake of fire in Revelation 20 is the second DEATH where death and Hades are thrown.
Watch the movie HELLBOUND.
have you guys heard the testimony or read the book 23 minutes in hell by bill weise ? pretty wild and the dude has bunch of scripture to back his experience. u guys should have him on