Knowing my passion for English history and the Tudors in particular, my daughter insisted I see this painting when I visited her in London while she was studying there. I am so glad she did as it is fantastic! I am fortunate that she pointed out many of the same things you discussed in this video. Thanks for another great history lesson!
I'm a huge fan of Holbein's work and I e always been fascinated with this one in particular. He died when Elizabeth I was about 10, yes? That's too bad because I would have loved to see if he would have painted Queen Elizabeth and given us all a little more likeness of her instead of what we ended up with. I'm not bashing the portraits or the artists who did them, but they weren't as realistic as Holbein's work was. I read that Elizabeth may have not wanted her true likeness portrayed especially when she began hiding her skin under the white makeup? I'm not sure how accurate that us, but oh how I always wonder about what other works Holbein could have done. 🙂🎨🖼👨🎨
This painting is so tricky, but I always wondered why the crucifix is half hidden and in such an insignificant place. You would think that, as one of the men is a bishop, the religious symbol would be forefront, but the picture seems not to be overtly religious. As the person who commissioned it, Jean de Dinteville is very prominent and I tend to look at him first. The whole thing is mysterious and I always thought the skull on the floor was just light coming in through an open door. Your analysis of the painting is extremely enlightening and appreciated.
My interpretation on the crucifix is that true Christian values are hidden or almost forgotten by the division caused by the mixing of religion and politics. The religious items are placed on the low shelf of "earthly" things, meaning that while religion is man-made, it is our search for knowledge, the upper shelf, that brings us closer to God. As flawed humans, we could spend an entire lifetime in the pursuit of beauty and enlightenment and still fail (skull, broken lute string), which is why the skull is dropped right in the middle and is separate from anything else. In this era, death is not something to be overcome or conquered as it is today (when we can't avoid it, we feel like we failed), it just comes as if out of nowhere. We first don't mind it but once it's there (anamorphism) we can't unsee it or see life (the painting) the same way again.
Just amazing 👏 it is like a photo but better! I can not imagine being this talented! The detail ! I stand amazed! The fur ! The floor every! The sheen ! The light ! The velvet ! The curtains @ everything
Enjoyable and informative as always! I'd love it if you'd take a look at Holbein's large painting of Thomas More's family. I believe you may have mentioned the painting in your video on Richard III. the late Jack Leslau wrote that he thought Holbein was sending a message in that painting that the Princes in the Tower had been hidden under new identities. Edward died young but Richard lived to adulthood and became known as the physician John Clement and a president of the Royal College of Physicians (IIRC). Clement is allegedly in the portrait. Here's the thing though. if you read Bertram Fields book on the Princes in the Tower, he sites the portrait as well. But the portrait he refers to IIRC (it's been years since I've read his book) is in the Chelsea Town Hall. It's allegedly also by Holbein but is an incomplete duplicate. The Holbeing painting Leslau referred apparently hung in Nostell Priory (again IIRC) which is owned by (I think) the Duke of Norfolk (who was loyal to Richard at Bosworth). THAT painting has a plethora of details that are simply missing from the Chelsea Town Hall painting. In fact, if you only see the Chelsea Town Hall painting you'll have no idea that anything at all is missing. If you could look at anything (assuming you'd have the time and/or even want to), I'd love it if you looked at that. I believe there is book on this written by a Matthew Lewis but I have no idea whether he has any credentials in this area. Then again neither Bertram Fields (an attorney) nor Jack Leslau (a jeweler I believe who lived in Antwerp) were trained historians either.
I agree with the reading of religious tensions and disorder of the earth, but I'd like to add that I think the second shelf of the celestial is wonky is actually a very strong statement. Even with all of our tools and measurements, who can really know the true nature of the divine? I read it as a condemnation of all sides who claim to know what god wants. Hubris is not your friend. I don't have any qualifications. I've just also haunted room 4. :)
Holbein was incredible, with just a few lines, he could reveal the inner psychology and personality of his subject in a simple sketch. In the paint medium, he was a virtuoso. Talent like his only comes along about once a century, if the world is lucky. He is the Mozart of the visual arts, utterly unique.
Great video - when I look at the painting the thing what strikes me is just how much of a status brag it its all that wealth and opulence) undercut by the symbols of how fleeting earthly priorities are (the skull undercutting everything, the crucifix peeking out). It's gorgeous and disturbing, to my eyes. Love it!
This is a spectacular painting both in content and size. I think it is unique because the secular appears to have completely subjugated the sacred here! Indeed the crucifix is partly obscured for a reason… I think the 'altar' that these two ambassadors stand in front of, now represents global trade. It was the Venetian practice to cover altars in oriental rugs and during this time Venice was responsible for importing these rugs, being the European centre of trade. These imported rugs were highly prized luxury objects and rarely placed on the ground in Europe (as was the case in their original Islamic cultural context). There was an exception as you point out, they were depicted in Renaissance altarpiece paintings where they were indeed placed at the feet of the Virgin Mary who represented the queen of heaven. Though the rug is still representing heaven here too, it is in a totally different context! Textiles were the luxury objects at this time and you can clearly see Holbein has done a remarkable job a depicting them. They are visually stunning taking up the majority of the picture space in this large painting. Most wealthy urban elites were commissioning altarpieces for social prestige… but these "Ambassadors" went one step beyond. You're right Dr Kat, there are so many ways this painting can be read. This was just my personal response to it. This was another enjoyable video.
Thank you so much for this comment! I love the way you've interpreted this painting - I can absolutely see it being read that way too! Holbein's catalogue of work is certainly evidence that he is a master of depicting the opulence of the proto-capitalism of early modern conspicuous consumption. I wonder if both our readings (and, in fact, any others that might be found) were intended by Holbein, Dinteville or even Selve? If so, I'd love to know which of them demanded (or surreptitiously included) which narrative. Your comment also took me back to my investigation of the Voynich - is The Ambassadors another example of a kind of interpretive Rorschach test? Does the interpretation offer a window into the particular experiences and world-view of the individual reading it? I've been nose-diving into religious history recently, for example. Do you think your own experiences might have led you to read the painting in the way you did?
I would say most definitely individual experiences and social background play a very large role in interpretation. You can not have a view from nowhere so subjectivity and some bias will always enter how one percevies things. However, I think there is also always some objectivity in art otherwise it simply would not work as a form of communication. That's an essential feature of art especially paintings like this one. Artists tended not to have much say in commissioned work of this time period; it was always dictated by the patron. Having said that, artists are kind of visual experts and they could be told what was needed and they would know how best to represent it symbolically. Some would no doubt try to sneek things into a painting. However, I feel that Holbein would find it very difficult to secretly insert something that would escape the scrutiny of men like Dinteville and Selve! I must say Dr Kat, I found it uncanny that you would choose this painting on the eve of the second Brexit in history!!! lol
I agree; objectivity must always be the intention of our interpretation and, to attempt to achieve it, we must force ourselves to examine our subjectivity and bias. This is another thing I love about reading historical materials and events - I have found that I understand myself better by finding the reason why I see things the way I do and also by what I feel drawn to look at. As you mention, I find myself living through a constitutional crisis and I must acknowledge that this experience has to play some part in where I look and how I see it.
Dr Kat, perhaps in five years time or more when we look at it again we will see something different. Context is important and I don't think our subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. It forces us to notice things that we might not have noticed before and so we get continually changing perspectives. For me that's always a good thing. I sure all the talk about trade deals enabled me to see things in this painting I never noticed before. I once chose this painting for my art dissertation. I changed my mind half way through because I found modern art much more interesting at the time. It was new to me then and there was so much change from the turn of the 20th century. However, the Renaissance has always held my interest and I am fascinated by both the art and philosophy that came about during this historical period.
Love this for a video idea! I'm making a note in my diary for 5 years from now - I'm going to reexamine "The Ambassadors" and rewatch the video to see if/how my views have shifted.
Hi Dr. Kat, I have never studied this portrait, but based off of your presentation, my interpretation would be as follows: This portrait shows the two figures’ deep appreciation for man-made instruments yet at the same time acknowledging the figures’ recognition of the imperfection and fallibility of said man-made instruments, which these figures enjoy in life while understanding that Christian perfection can be achieved either through salvation or through the union with God that occurs, at the very latest, with death.
THIS PAINTING IS THE VOICE OF GENIUS, SPEAKING TO US ACROSS THE AGES TO TELL US THE UNDENIABLE TRUTHS THAT ARE UNIVERSAL... *WHATEVER THE AGE THEY DWELL IN*
I remember this from Art History and studying the English Renaissance. It was always shown as an example of the English penchant for riddles, depicting the tensions between multiple aspects of life, and the increasing use of "memento mori." You provided more details than I had known, so I thoroughly enjoyed your lecture.
I'm reading this as an introduction to The Ambassadors today. the close-ups are incredibly revealing the first time around. I will come back again and again when I have thought about your opinions. your caviat at the end as usual bears out the balance which love you for. I know that if I come to Reading The Past I will get :-spoken to as an equal, abscence from bigotry, love of history and education. thankyou Dr Kat. I'm glad I found you.
Thank you for the videos you do regarding artwork, I see the pieces with new eyes. There is so much of interest in this painting and Holbein was such a skilled and gifted artist.
I too love this work. It's so striking that a nobleman included his friend while seizing the opportunity to sit for Henry VIII's portraitist. Add the intellectual cat and mouse of the elaborate, perhaps ineffable allegory. I can't help but care, and wonder why...which has the effect of granting Jean de Dinteville an immediacy curious for a painted image of someone long deceased.
It was really nice to hear your theory and thoughts on the people and objects. I have read many books about the techniques and the history of this picture and the colour theory behind it the pigment used etc. David Hockney wrote an excellent book a few years ago about the use of lenses and camera obscures used by artists in the british and North European Renaissance and he has a theory Holbein used a camera Lucinda to paint this which is how the carpet is at slightly odd angles and the painting has unusual perspectives. I absolutely love this painting too. I cannot unsee the skull . Thank you for this and all your videos. . I will find my Hockney book so I can give you the title. It’s very interesting to anyone interested in how art was made throughout history.
I took a Humanities course and one of the subjects we discussed was this painting. The explanation for the skull was that many painters placed skulls in their paintings to remind us that death was always present.
I tend to take what I read and see literally. Listening to your ideas on this painting is fascinating. You have allowed me to see this painting with so much more depth. Thank you
I really like your interpretation of this picture. I think that from a logistics stand point (in this case literally) this painting was intended to be hung on a staircase with a turn so that you would come around the corner and see the skull, then move past it and up. I can't think of a better place to be sure that the painting would be viewed as it has clearly been intended. I've seen it in person and the moment you move into place for the skull to appear is breath-taking. I just recently found your channel and I am loving it!
I absolutely love your work! I wish I could have seen your posts before the multiple visits to London! Keep up the great work. I especially love your iconography.
As I am certain was pointed out, the mismatched celestial portion may be a sign of humanity attempting to measure heavens and always coming short, which breeds discord. The notion of different perspectives comes to mind, as well, - both as the painting must be viewed from several angles to be seen fully, and as implements will have a different reading depending on where one comes from; admittedly, the last part may be inspired purely by the international implications of the word "ambassador" itself.
Kat I am in complete agreement with you and share a deep love of this artist . His work is breathtaking and as a old art student who spent many an hour analysing paintings and artists before our lectures began , hearing you discuss this painting was awesome . The painting is used to portray the sitters , their interests ,beliefs and views on the world whilst at the same time the artist can show off his painterly magic . I’m just wondering as Holbein is working for his clients do they suggest the details ,which objects are used to play their part in their story or does Holbein have the vision of what to use ,where to place and knowing how symbolic each item can be , how significant it’s inclusion will be ? I imagine it’s a collaboration,much like any bespoke item . The client expresses an interest in the work and the artist or craftsman translates this into a finished piece . Which is truly tailored to the individuals. Most clients can be bent towards what an artist knows will work best . I imagine the trickery of the skull would appeal to a sense of something quirky ,even humorous plus a more direct meaning Art is at the end of the day a story to be told in paint etc, what can be said in words he has told in brushstrokes. And brushstrokes of the finest quality , his ability to capture the textures is just magical I don’t know whether you have already done this but have you covered the life of Holbein in greater detail . I know he died in somewhat mysterious circumstances and has been portrayed in various books. I’m not sure if it was one of the Shardlake series by Samson that pulled him into a plot . Either way he is THE artist of the Tudor court and we have his vast array of sketches and artworks to understanding the times they lived in . Sorry if I’ve wafted on but you have taken me back 40 odd years to my days at Bournville school of Art ! History & Art = happiness
Shelf two seems to express that time is out of joint because of shelf one. Fascinating. Should I ever be fortunate to travel to the UK I shall endeavour to visit with the Ambassadors. Thank you for sharing this treasure with us. You have given me a lot to contemplate.
Thank you for making this video!! I've always been very fascinated by this painting, but when it came to analysing it, I never knew where to start. This was very helpful.
Thank you Dr Kat for this excellent video! I am just beginning to learn about symbolism in art and this was fascinating! As someone who was raised Lutheran I always assumed the crucifix behind the curtain meant the men were closet Catholics or that that had put the older faith behind since Lutheran churches (at least today) almost never have a cross with Jesus hanging on it.
Was pretty excited to see this one. Al Seckel identifies this painting as the high point of anamorphic art in his book “Masters of Deception: Escher, Dalí & the Artists of Optical Illusion.” I received this book as a gift from my advisor and colleagues when I finished my PhD. Haha. This painting is great in class. I haven’t taught in quite some time but I still giggle a little remembering the “wtf did I just watch” faces across the classroom after revealing this visual illusion. Have you heard of Julian Beever? Amazing (and British) anamorphic sidewalk chalk art. Thanks for the great video
Luther wanted to reform the church, his object was not to depart. He was kicked out and it was made permanent by Trent, the irrrevocable document. I think Luther would have been pleased with a “wing” like all the other monks in the RC Church (Augustinian, Franciscan, etc.) Hans Holbein, being from Germany, was probably keeping a close eye on those happenings. Perhaps the broken instruments refer to the brokenness of the Roman Catholic Church, as viewed by Lutherans and King Henry. If you read about Luther’s trip to Rome, it may shed some light.
Eric Ives, Anne Boleyn's biographer, thought that Anne could have commissioned this painting. See here: www.theanneboleynfiles.com/holbeins-the-ambassadors-a-renaissance-puzzle-part-one-context/6516/
Holbein also put the ages of the ambassadors hidden in the painting. I've never seen it but know it is massive. Thank you for your interpretation on this great piece.
I agree with you. I also get another more subtle meaning. The reminder of mortality, the chaotic state of affairs in the world, the slightly off kilter state of the heavens very obvious. The hope of the cross, however, is obscured. One cannot clearly see it but must be seeking it. Seek salvation seems to be the message. The cross is there but unless you are looking for it, you will likely not see it. Make sense? Everything else catches the eye. The skull is distorted because the view of death is distorted. The affairs of the world are just messy. The celestial situation is a bit better than the earthly one. But the true important emblem is not readily visible. I get a strong message not to involve heavily in the situations of earth and the sky but to fix firmly on salvation. And not to let things cloud the truth of salvation (the curtain). I know I have maundered all over but I hope I made sense.
what does this painting - the whole painting look like from lower right especially the Crucifix. The key to this painting is why distort the skull. I believe the answer to that will answer a lot is this paintings mysteries.
Although I respect Holbein's work immensely, there's a certain 'stiffness' within his forms that I have a hard time looking through to see the 'humanity.' His abilities in rendering materials and textures, and his clever uses of symbolism in his expression are undoubtedly unmatched, but there's something about the forms that feel-- taxidermy? As far as realism, or 'feeling' the humanity coming out of the work is concerned: Giovanni Battista Moroni comes to mind. He worked in the late renaissance, and is in my opinion extremely unsung. When I look at his portraits, I feel like I could get to know his sitters. There's something about them that's special and have such a familiar feeling. Edit: I realize that my comparison may not have much validity in this particular forum, because Giovanni is, of course, Italian, and this is focused more on England specifically, but I still wanted to provide my comparison pertaining to the art itself.
What a fascinating portrait, the symbolism is everywhere, and I do not believe any of it was unintended. I think he's trying to bring across what was probably in those days not the smartest thing to say out loud - that humanity was/is doomed (in those days by the split from the Roman Church, and the turbulent rule of Henry VIII).
As you mention, the floor is the spot in Westminster Abbey where royalty is crowned. Of course the person being crowned at this time is Anne Boleyn, with the actual sovereign’s crown, not the consort’s crown. Holbein was commissioned to do tableaux during Anne’s procession through London. She is now his main patron along with her followers, Cromwell and later, the king. He has successfully moved from more traditional Catholic circles such as Thomas More, to more reformist ones. It’s hard to say what Holbein religious convictions were… perhaps like the Ambassadors themselves he is somewhat neutral or flexible/adaptable. Money is money wherever it’s coming from. France was technically Catholic but Francois and his sister Margaret were definitely tolerant of reformists, at least in private. Anne was raised in France and she became Queen in part because Francois promised his support to Henry in the annulment and remarriage. Historically, these are confusing times. The idea of a ‘Lutheran’ or ‘Protestant’ wasn’t really a defined sect until perhaps 10-20 years later. I think the painting suggests the turmoil that’s beginning to happen that will only get worse in the ensuing decades.
I actually feel the "As Above So Below" vibe. I feel like the top shelf depicting The Heavens and the clear disorder, maybe they felt that the planets may have been out of a type of alignment, and so affecting the events on earth. Idk that's what I feel especially given the period.
Am currently working my way through all of your videos and loving them. Have just finished listening to The King's Painter on Radio 4 which was all about Holbein the Younger too. Have you considered reviewing his painting of Sir Thomas Moore and his family at their Chelsea home? Apparently there are lots of hidden clues in the painting which point to the fact that Edward V and his brother Richard did not die in the tower but were in fact hidden in plain sight at Moore's home! Richard, Duke of York, took on the guise of Dr John Clement - even if this were not true there is so much mystery surrounding this character that it warrants a closer look in any event. I would love to hear your views on this subject because as a Ricardian I cannot (and don't want to) believe that Richard would kill his nephews if he believed in his right to the throne.
I've just discovered this wonderful, insightful channel, so I know my comments and questions are woefully late, but I'll ask anyways, was this sort of hidden skull thing common? I cannot recall any painting with such a huge twisted skull hanging out. Cuttlefish. I had to chuckle.
Have you ever thought of having your own portrait done this way? I don't necessarily mean having your portrait painted but having it done by a professional photographer with symbols/posessions of your own in the background and with your clothing representing your life and philosophy? That would be an interesting thing for a person to do.
I very much enjoyed this video. I was wondering if the globe of earth is showing us a part of earth with a particular significance? Also, does it appear to you that in the green curtain in the folds, there is a looking face, smiling, not far and right of Christ? Maybe he is causing the havoc with the objects and Christ is there to get rid of him! Or I am just seeing things!
Hans Holbein the Younger was influenced by both Lutheranism and Humanism. Artists tend to look at the world in a less doctrinaire way. I think your interpretation of his desire for unity is right on. His early work was, as a necessity, religious. His later work is secular, for the most part. He obviously painted for whichever patron could afford to pay him.
11:17 is it only me that when I first saw the painting at the beginning of the video, even if i never saw the painting before now, I saw already the skull? Like. It was standing out too much to not see it differently. I feel advanced ahahahh
This might be a ridiculous thought, but could the clock be a world clock? I have no idea if time zones were even a thing then, but if world clocks did exist, I'd imagine an ambassador would have one.
Has the Turkish table mat anything relevant to the Ottomans ramapaging across europe as this would have been painted around the time of the battle of vienna.
I disagree about the Turkey carpet having any religious significance. I think it just is a colorful, highly paintable, luxury object that evokes exotic lands, and is a prestige object aspired to by every gentleman of the time.
I thought the upper shelf, with the maladjusted instruments that you refer to suggests the concept that no human, however clever, can possibly know God, and that, as such, neither Catholic nor Lutheran views can be the full and accurate truth - a basis for the rapprochement the lower shelf suggests.
I think he’s saying that the times are disordered and the way to heaven is unclear, there might be more than one way, Catholic or Protestant. I think the lower shelf items represent the disruption of daily life with the introduction of the new religion, Lutheranism. It’s difficult to overstate the centrality of the Roman church, and its beliefs, in the daily lives of virtually all Europeans, and many other peoples of the old world, for at least 1,000 years. The distorted skull, my least favorite element of the painting because it’s a show-offish trick, says what does it all matter, we all end up like this-skulls and bones. The ultimate human struggle is having to accept that our complex, self-aware, wonderful lives all end in death. I think this is what really separates us from other animals and is at the root of all world religions.
It has been pointed out that the faces are not the most penetrating of Holbein's portrait work. She also points out that the sitters were not together in England for more than a few months. She seems, also to pass off the objects 'on the shelves' as somewhat eclectic, and not perhaps, pointing to the real idea behind the picture. While the astronomical instruments on the 'top shelf' point the viewer to the heavenly bodies and the arcane world, the objects on the 'bottom shelf', also brilliantly painted, guide the viewer to the achievements of music and mathematics by the human mind in the mundane world below. Before looking at he obscured figure of Our Lord on the Cross, and the cryptic skull at the picture's nadir; I would like to direct you to major painting in which Henry VIII makes a State Visit to Francis I of France "The Field (flag) of the Cloth of Gold". France, not the little broken up pieces of the Holy Roman Empire, is cultural and political centre of Europe. The two portrait subjects are not intellectual or spiritual subjects, they are messengers - Ambassadors. They are representing to the viewer, the position of the Church's teaching on salvation Christ on the Cross), and that of the Calvinists (simplified theology in the form of hymns). Holbein, is here by the means of his Ambassadors, taking the viewer from the instrument of our salvation, down though the arcane world to our spiritual loss in the mundane creation of the Calvanists in one of their hymn books, to the sign of death itself , the skull. This painting is a major work of cultural and historical significance in the life of Europe, and should be taken very seriously. Thank you Dr Kat, in your talk you do at least make the listener THINK. This is a valuable approach to the subject, a subject which is subjective, because it is POETRY.
Perhaps that mankind cannot ascend into the heavens except through the salvation of Christ. That the sacrifice of Jesus is the beacon to the Father. When making the sign of the cross, it is the Father at the upper right.
If you’d asked me I would have said they were in their late 30’s , even 40’s. You say the guy on the right is 26! Then I’m not surprised there was a lot of fighting going on. All these Lords, Ladies and Earls were nothing more than a bunch of squabbling kids. Full of testosterone / ego . Very few of them lived long enough to grow wise. The atmosphere at the time must have been something like : Get what you can as fast as you can before deceases , injuries or war finish you off. I’d much rather have old white men running our country than these guys.
Knowing my passion for English history and the Tudors in particular, my daughter insisted I see this painting when I visited her in London while she was studying there. I am so glad she did as it is fantastic! I am fortunate that she pointed out many of the same things you discussed in this video. Thanks for another great history lesson!
I'm a huge fan of Holbein's work and I e always been fascinated with this one in particular. He died when Elizabeth I was about 10, yes?
That's too bad because I would have loved to see if he would have painted Queen Elizabeth and given us all a little more likeness of her instead of what we ended up with. I'm not bashing the portraits or the artists who did them, but they weren't as realistic as Holbein's work was. I read that Elizabeth may have not wanted her true likeness portrayed especially when she began hiding her skin under the white makeup? I'm not sure how accurate that us, but oh how I always wonder about what other works Holbein could have done. 🙂🎨🖼👨🎨
This painting is so tricky, but I always wondered why the crucifix is half hidden and in such an insignificant place. You would think that, as one of the men is a bishop, the religious symbol would be forefront, but the picture seems not to be overtly religious. As the person who commissioned it, Jean de Dinteville is very prominent and I tend to look at him first. The whole thing is mysterious and I always thought the skull on the floor was just light coming in through an open door. Your analysis of the painting is extremely enlightening and appreciated.
My interpretation on the crucifix is that true Christian values are hidden or almost forgotten by the division caused by the mixing of religion and politics. The religious items are placed on the low shelf of "earthly" things, meaning that while religion is man-made, it is our search for knowledge, the upper shelf, that brings us closer to God.
As flawed humans, we could spend an entire lifetime in the pursuit of beauty and enlightenment and still fail (skull, broken lute string), which is why the skull is dropped right in the middle and is separate from anything else. In this era, death is not something to be overcome or conquered as it is today (when we can't avoid it, we feel like we failed), it just comes as if out of nowhere. We first don't mind it but once it's there (anamorphism) we can't unsee it or see life (the painting) the same way again.
Just amazing 👏 it is like a photo but better! I can not imagine being this talented! The detail ! I stand amazed! The fur ! The floor every! The sheen ! The light ! The velvet ! The curtains @ everything
Dr Kat you are so cool. I love the way you welcome us into your home.
Enjoyable and informative as always! I'd love it if you'd take a look at Holbein's large painting of Thomas More's family. I believe you may have mentioned the painting in your video on Richard III. the late Jack Leslau wrote that he thought Holbein was sending a message in that painting that the Princes in the Tower had been hidden under new identities. Edward died young but Richard lived to adulthood and became known as the physician John Clement and a president of the Royal College of Physicians (IIRC). Clement is allegedly in the portrait.
Here's the thing though. if you read Bertram Fields book on the Princes in the Tower, he sites the portrait as well. But the portrait he refers to IIRC (it's been years since I've read his book) is in the Chelsea Town Hall. It's allegedly also by Holbein but is an incomplete duplicate. The Holbeing painting Leslau referred apparently hung in Nostell Priory (again IIRC) which is owned by (I think) the Duke of Norfolk (who was loyal to Richard at Bosworth). THAT painting has a plethora of details that are simply missing from the Chelsea Town Hall painting. In fact, if you only see the Chelsea Town Hall painting you'll have no idea that anything at all is missing.
If you could look at anything (assuming you'd have the time and/or even want to), I'd love it if you looked at that. I believe there is book on this written by a Matthew Lewis but I have no idea whether he has any credentials in this area. Then again neither Bertram Fields (an attorney) nor Jack Leslau (a jeweler I believe who lived in Antwerp) were trained historians either.
I agree with the reading of religious tensions and disorder of the earth, but I'd like to add that I think the second shelf of the celestial is wonky is actually a very strong statement. Even with all of our tools and measurements, who can really know the true nature of the divine? I read it as a condemnation of all sides who claim to know what god wants. Hubris is not your friend.
I don't have any qualifications. I've just also haunted room 4. :)
I'm thrilled I found your videos! I've been binge watching all day. Thanks for keeping my mind busy during these times.
That's a very good point!
Holbein was incredible, with just a few lines, he could reveal the inner psychology and personality of his subject in a simple sketch. In the paint medium, he was a virtuoso. Talent like his only comes along about once a century, if the world is lucky. He is the Mozart of the visual arts, utterly unique.
Amazing observances Dr Kat-I will look at this painting with new eyes.
Great video - when I look at the painting the thing what strikes me is just how much of a status brag it its all that wealth and opulence) undercut by the symbols of how fleeting earthly priorities are (the skull undercutting everything, the crucifix peeking out). It's gorgeous and disturbing, to my eyes. Love it!
Yes! It's no shock that this is the image chosen for Greenblatt's "Renaissance Self-Fashioning", is it? It screams conspicuous consumption!
This is a spectacular painting both in content and size. I think it is unique because the secular appears to have completely subjugated the sacred here! Indeed the crucifix is partly obscured for a reason… I think the 'altar' that these two ambassadors stand in front of, now represents global trade. It was the Venetian practice to cover altars in oriental rugs and during this time Venice was responsible for importing these rugs, being the European centre of trade.
These imported rugs were highly prized luxury objects and rarely placed on the ground in Europe (as was the case in their original Islamic cultural context). There was an exception as you point out, they were depicted in Renaissance altarpiece paintings where they were indeed placed at the feet of the Virgin Mary who represented the queen of heaven. Though the rug is still representing heaven here too, it is in a totally different context!
Textiles were the luxury objects at this time and you can clearly see Holbein has done a remarkable job a depicting them. They are visually stunning taking up the majority of the picture space in this large painting. Most wealthy urban elites were commissioning altarpieces for social prestige… but these "Ambassadors" went one step beyond.
You're right Dr Kat, there are so many ways this painting can be read. This was just my personal response to it. This was another enjoyable video.
Thank you so much for this comment!
I love the way you've interpreted this painting - I can absolutely see it being read that way too! Holbein's catalogue of work is certainly evidence that he is a master of depicting the opulence of the proto-capitalism of early modern conspicuous consumption. I wonder if both our readings (and, in fact, any others that might be found) were intended by Holbein, Dinteville or even Selve? If so, I'd love to know which of them demanded (or surreptitiously included) which narrative.
Your comment also took me back to my investigation of the Voynich - is The Ambassadors another example of a kind of interpretive Rorschach test? Does the interpretation offer a window into the particular experiences and world-view of the individual reading it? I've been nose-diving into religious history recently, for example. Do you think your own experiences might have led you to read the painting in the way you did?
I would say most definitely individual experiences and social background play a very large role in interpretation. You can not have a view from nowhere so subjectivity and some bias will always enter how one percevies things. However, I think there is also always some objectivity in art otherwise it simply would not work as a form of communication. That's an essential feature of art especially paintings like this one.
Artists tended not to have much say in commissioned work of this time period; it was always dictated by the patron. Having said that, artists are kind of visual experts and they could be told what was needed and they would know how best to represent it symbolically. Some would no doubt try to sneek things into a painting. However, I feel that Holbein would find it very difficult to secretly insert something that would escape the scrutiny of men like Dinteville and Selve!
I must say Dr Kat, I found it uncanny that you would choose this painting on the eve of the second Brexit in history!!! lol
I agree; objectivity must always be the intention of our interpretation and, to attempt to achieve it, we must force ourselves to examine our subjectivity and bias.
This is another thing I love about reading historical materials and events - I have found that I understand myself better by finding the reason why I see things the way I do and also by what I feel drawn to look at.
As you mention, I find myself living through a constitutional crisis and I must acknowledge that this experience has to play some part in where I look and how I see it.
Dr Kat, perhaps in five years time or more when we look at it again we will see something different. Context is important and I don't think our subjectivity is necessarily a bad thing. It forces us to notice things that we might not have noticed before and so we get continually changing perspectives. For me that's always a good thing. I sure all the talk about trade deals enabled me to see things in this painting I never noticed before.
I once chose this painting for my art dissertation. I changed my mind half way through because I found modern art much more interesting at the time. It was new to me then and there was so much change from the turn of the 20th century. However, the Renaissance has always held my interest and I am fascinated by both the art and philosophy that came about during this historical period.
Love this for a video idea! I'm making a note in my diary for 5 years from now - I'm going to reexamine "The Ambassadors" and rewatch the video to see if/how my views have shifted.
This was so enjoyable and informative!
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'm really glad you enjoyed the video!
I’ve loved this painting since I was a child.
Hi Dr. Kat, I have never studied this portrait, but based off of your presentation, my interpretation would be as follows: This portrait shows the two figures’ deep appreciation for man-made instruments yet at the same time acknowledging the figures’ recognition of the imperfection and fallibility of said man-made instruments, which these figures enjoy in life while understanding that Christian perfection can be achieved either through salvation or through the union with God that occurs, at the very latest, with death.
THIS PAINTING IS THE VOICE OF GENIUS, SPEAKING TO US ACROSS THE AGES TO TELL US THE UNDENIABLE TRUTHS THAT ARE UNIVERSAL...
*WHATEVER THE AGE THEY DWELL IN*
Rewatching after the clock video. Even though I've seen this painting before Dr. Kat, it just seems unreal. I hope to see it one day in person.
I remember this from Art History and studying the English Renaissance. It was always shown as an example of the English penchant for riddles, depicting the tensions between multiple aspects of life, and the increasing use of "memento mori." You provided more details than I had known, so I thoroughly enjoyed your lecture.
I'm reading this as an introduction to The Ambassadors today. the close-ups are incredibly revealing the first time around. I will come back again and again when I have thought about your opinions. your caviat at the end as usual bears out the balance which love you for. I know that if I come to Reading The Past I will get :-spoken to as an equal, abscence from bigotry, love of history and education. thankyou Dr Kat. I'm glad I found you.
How is it that I totally missed the giant skull until you pointed it out, but now I can't unsee it? lol
Thank you for the videos you do regarding artwork, I see the pieces with new eyes. There is so much of interest in this painting and Holbein was such a skilled and gifted artist.
Almost everything you have identified I had completely missed! Thank you for the expert's tour. I'm much better informed now,
So much symbolism in a painting I would never have thought of looking at paintings in such a way thank you for awakening my inner thoughts.
Fascinating!!!!! Thank you indeed!!!!
I actually saw this on my last trip to London. I loved it!
Hello dr. Kat ! I loved watching videos of British history !
I love this. I cannot believe I have never before seen this painting.
I too love this work. It's so striking that a nobleman included his friend while seizing the opportunity to sit for Henry VIII's portraitist. Add the intellectual cat and mouse of the elaborate, perhaps ineffable allegory. I can't help but care, and wonder why...which has the effect of granting Jean de Dinteville an immediacy curious for a painted image of someone long deceased.
🤔 super interesting, and I love it!💗
It was really nice to hear your theory and thoughts on the people and objects. I have read many books about the techniques and the history of this picture and the colour theory behind it the pigment used etc. David Hockney wrote an excellent book a few years ago about the use of lenses and camera obscures used by artists in the british and North European Renaissance and he has a theory Holbein used a camera Lucinda to paint this which is how the carpet is at slightly odd angles and the painting has unusual perspectives. I absolutely love this painting too. I cannot unsee the skull . Thank you for this and all your videos. . I will find my Hockney book so I can give you the title. It’s very interesting to anyone interested in how art was made throughout history.
I took a Humanities course and one of the subjects we discussed was this painting. The explanation for the skull was that many painters placed skulls in their paintings to remind us that death was always present.
I tend to take what I read and see literally. Listening to your ideas on this painting is fascinating. You have allowed me to see this painting with so much more depth. Thank you
Holbein was a genius. So glad to have discovered this channel. Big thank you from Germany 🌸
I really like your interpretation of this picture. I think that from a logistics stand point (in this case literally) this painting was intended to be hung on a staircase with a turn so that you would come around the corner and see the skull, then move past it and up. I can't think of a better place to be sure that the painting would be viewed as it has clearly been intended. I've seen it in person and the moment you move into place for the skull to appear is breath-taking. I just recently found your channel and I am loving it!
I absolutely love your work! I wish I could have seen your posts before the multiple visits to London! Keep up the great work. I especially love your iconography.
As I am certain was pointed out, the mismatched celestial portion may be a sign of humanity attempting to measure heavens and always coming short, which breeds discord. The notion of different perspectives comes to mind, as well, - both as the painting must be viewed from several angles to be seen fully, and as implements will have a different reading depending on where one comes from; admittedly, the last part may be inspired purely by the international implications of the word "ambassador" itself.
Love the painting and your observations.
Kat I am in complete agreement with you and share a deep love of this artist . His work is breathtaking and as a old art student who spent many an hour analysing paintings and artists before our lectures began , hearing you discuss this painting was awesome . The painting is used to portray the sitters , their interests ,beliefs and views on the world whilst at the same time the artist can show off his painterly magic . I’m just wondering as Holbein is working for his clients do they suggest the details ,which objects are used to play their part in their story or does Holbein have the vision of what to use ,where to place and knowing how symbolic each item can be , how significant it’s inclusion will be ?
I imagine it’s a collaboration,much like any bespoke item . The client expresses an interest in the work and the artist or craftsman translates this into a finished piece . Which is truly tailored to the individuals. Most clients can be bent towards what an artist knows will work best . I imagine the trickery of the skull would appeal to a sense of something quirky ,even humorous plus a more direct meaning
Art is at the end of the day a story to be told in paint etc, what can be said in words he has told in brushstrokes. And brushstrokes of the finest quality , his ability to capture the textures is just magical
I don’t know whether you have already done this but have you covered the life of Holbein in greater detail . I know he died in somewhat mysterious circumstances and has been portrayed in various books. I’m not sure if it was one of the Shardlake series by Samson that pulled him into a plot . Either way he is THE artist of the Tudor court and we have his vast array of sketches and artworks to understanding the times they lived in .
Sorry if I’ve wafted on but you have taken me back 40 odd years to my days at Bournville school of Art ! History & Art = happiness
Shelf two seems to express that time is out of joint because of shelf one. Fascinating. Should I ever be fortunate to travel to the UK I shall endeavour to visit with the Ambassadors. Thank you for sharing this treasure with us. You have given me a lot to contemplate.
Thank you for making this video!! I've always been very fascinated by this painting, but when it came to analysing it, I never knew where to start. This was very helpful.
Thank you Dr Kat for this excellent video! I am just beginning to learn about symbolism in art and this was fascinating! As someone who was raised Lutheran I always assumed the crucifix behind the curtain meant the men were closet Catholics or that that had put the older faith behind since Lutheran churches (at least today) almost never have a cross with Jesus hanging on it.
I came here from the momento memori episode. I kept tilting my phone so I could see the skull squish into prospective. Crazy
Very interesting interpretation and explanation, especially re the floor.
Thanks for another great video.
Maybe he was saying we have time to get it right. Through time, space, and religion. In time things can be turned right again.
Was pretty excited to see this one. Al Seckel identifies this painting as the high point of anamorphic art in his book “Masters of Deception: Escher, Dalí & the Artists of Optical Illusion.” I received this book as a gift from my advisor and colleagues when I finished my PhD. Haha.
This painting is great in class. I haven’t taught in quite some time but I still giggle a little remembering the “wtf did I just watch” faces across the classroom after revealing this visual illusion.
Have you heard of Julian Beever? Amazing (and British) anamorphic sidewalk chalk art.
Thanks for the great video
Just brilliant, Dr Kat. Simon Schama didn't do it better.
Luther wanted to reform the church, his object was not to depart. He was kicked out and it was made permanent by Trent, the irrrevocable document. I think Luther would have been pleased with a “wing” like all the other monks in the RC Church (Augustinian, Franciscan, etc.)
Hans Holbein, being from Germany, was probably keeping a close eye on those happenings. Perhaps the broken instruments refer to the brokenness of the Roman Catholic Church, as viewed by Lutherans and King Henry.
If you read about Luther’s trip to Rome, it may shed some light.
Eric Ives, Anne Boleyn's biographer, thought that Anne could have commissioned this painting. See here: www.theanneboleynfiles.com/holbeins-the-ambassadors-a-renaissance-puzzle-part-one-context/6516/
Holbein also put the ages of the ambassadors hidden in the painting. I've never seen it but know it is massive. Thank you for your interpretation on this great piece.
Fascinating!
Thank you DK 💜
I agree with you. I also get another more subtle meaning. The reminder of mortality, the chaotic state of affairs in the world, the slightly off kilter state of the heavens very obvious. The hope of the cross, however, is obscured. One cannot clearly see it but must be seeking it. Seek salvation seems to be the message. The cross is there but unless you are looking for it, you will likely not see it. Make sense? Everything else catches the eye. The skull is distorted because the view of death is distorted. The affairs of the world are just messy. The celestial situation is a bit better than the earthly one. But the true important emblem is not readily visible. I get a strong message not to involve heavily in the situations of earth and the sky but to fix firmly on salvation. And not to let things cloud the truth of salvation (the curtain). I know I have maundered all over but I hope I made sense.
what does this painting - the whole painting look like from lower right especially the Crucifix. The key to this painting is why distort the skull. I believe the answer to that will answer a lot is this paintings mysteries.
Although I respect Holbein's work immensely, there's a certain 'stiffness' within his forms that I have a hard time looking through to see the 'humanity.' His abilities in rendering materials and textures, and his clever uses of symbolism in his expression are undoubtedly unmatched, but there's something about the forms that feel-- taxidermy?
As far as realism, or 'feeling' the humanity coming out of the work is concerned: Giovanni Battista Moroni comes to mind. He worked in the late renaissance, and is in my opinion extremely unsung. When I look at his portraits, I feel like I could get to know his sitters. There's something about them that's special and have such a familiar feeling.
Edit: I realize that my comparison may not have much validity in this particular forum, because Giovanni is, of course, Italian, and this is focused more on England specifically, but I still wanted to provide my comparison pertaining to the art itself.
What a fascinating portrait, the symbolism is everywhere, and I do not believe any of it was unintended. I think he's trying to bring across what was probably in those days not the smartest thing to say out loud - that humanity was/is doomed (in those days by the split from the Roman Church, and the turbulent rule of Henry VIII).
As you mention, the floor is the spot in Westminster Abbey where royalty is crowned. Of course the person being crowned at this time is Anne Boleyn, with the actual sovereign’s crown, not the consort’s crown. Holbein was commissioned to do tableaux during Anne’s procession through London. She is now his main patron along with her followers, Cromwell and later, the king. He has successfully moved from more traditional Catholic circles such as Thomas More, to more reformist ones. It’s hard to say what Holbein religious convictions were… perhaps like the Ambassadors themselves he is somewhat neutral or flexible/adaptable. Money is money wherever it’s coming from. France was technically Catholic but Francois and his sister Margaret were definitely tolerant of reformists, at least in private. Anne was raised in France and she became Queen in part because Francois promised his support to Henry in the annulment and remarriage. Historically, these are confusing times. The idea of a ‘Lutheran’ or ‘Protestant’ wasn’t really a defined sect until perhaps 10-20 years later. I think the painting suggests the turmoil that’s beginning to happen that will only get worse in the ensuing decades.
I actually feel the "As Above So Below" vibe. I feel like the top shelf depicting The Heavens and the clear disorder, maybe they felt that the planets may have been out of a type of alignment, and so affecting the events on earth. Idk that's what I feel especially given the period.
Thanks for everything
Early 'Fool the eye' and very mysterious.
Hello ! I enjoyed the video I just watched !
Am currently working my way through all of your videos and loving them. Have just finished listening to The King's Painter on Radio 4 which was all about Holbein the Younger too. Have you considered reviewing his painting of Sir Thomas Moore and his family at their Chelsea home? Apparently there are lots of hidden clues in the painting which point to the fact that Edward V and his brother Richard did not die in the tower but were in fact hidden in plain sight at Moore's home! Richard, Duke of York, took on the guise of Dr John Clement - even if this were not true there is so much mystery surrounding this character that it warrants a closer look in any event. I would love to hear your views on this subject because as a Ricardian I cannot (and don't want to) believe that Richard would kill his nephews if he believed in his right to the throne.
Enjoyed this, as I do all of your videos. As far as the items on the top shelf being misaligned, could Holbein be saying “we’ve lost our way”?
I've just discovered this wonderful, insightful channel, so I know my comments and questions are woefully late, but I'll ask anyways, was this sort of hidden skull thing common? I cannot recall any painting with such a huge twisted skull hanging out. Cuttlefish. I had to chuckle.
Have you ever thought of having your own portrait done this way? I don't necessarily mean having your portrait painted but having it done by a professional photographer with symbols/posessions of your own in the background and with your clothing representing your life and philosophy? That would be an interesting thing for a person to do.
If you could be killed by a whim of the king, make everything interpretable in opposite ways. This would make a great Monty Python sketch.
Can you do one of these on the Arnolfini Portrait by Jan Van Euclid please , really enjoyed this video thanks very much
That's an ideal painting for Dr. Kat to "read" because till this day it is shrouded in mystery and has left many questions unanswered.
what about the black upside down lute under the table?
Set on a staircase wall perhaps ?
Did you miss the crucifix in the top right hand corner looking out behind the Curtain?
I very much enjoyed this video. I was wondering if the globe of earth is showing us a part of earth with a particular significance? Also, does it appear to you that in the green curtain in the folds, there is a looking face, smiling, not far and right of Christ? Maybe he is causing the havoc with the objects and Christ is there to get rid of him! Or I am just seeing things!
Hans Holbein the Younger was influenced by both Lutheranism and Humanism. Artists tend to look at the world in a less doctrinaire way. I think your interpretation of his desire for unity is right on. His early work was, as a necessity, religious. His later work is secular, for the most part. He obviously painted for whichever patron could afford to pay him.
Is it possible the times on the clock faces indicate hours of prayer or something numerological? I don’t have the cultural literacy to interpret.
I wonder why the carpet and the curtain are draped untidily?
11:17 is it only me that when I first saw the painting at the beginning of the video, even if i never saw the painting before now, I saw already the skull? Like. It was standing out too much to not see it differently. I feel advanced ahahahh
Sadly I’ve never seen the original.
This might be a ridiculous thought, but could the clock be a world clock? I have no idea if time zones were even a thing then, but if world clocks did exist, I'd imagine an ambassador would have one.
Isn`t "Let there be division" just a different way of saying Divide and Conquer? The modus operandi of how to stay in power?
You said the skull cannot be seen head on, but i saw it straight away?
Has the Turkish table mat anything relevant to the Ottomans ramapaging across europe as this would have been painted around the time of the battle of vienna.
One correction... The skull should be viewed from the bottom left, not bottom right.
I disagree about the Turkey carpet having any religious significance. I think it just is a colorful, highly paintable, luxury object that evokes exotic lands, and is a prestige object aspired to by every gentleman of the time.
I thought the upper shelf, with the maladjusted instruments that you refer to suggests the concept that no human, however clever, can possibly know God, and that, as such, neither Catholic nor Lutheran views can be the full and accurate truth - a basis for the rapprochement the lower shelf suggests.
I know that William Marshal, First Earl Pembroke, but I would like to read what is true about him rather than via the historical fiction.
There's the Universal S
I think he’s saying that the times are disordered and the way to heaven is unclear, there might be more than one way, Catholic or Protestant. I think the lower shelf items represent the disruption of daily life with the introduction of the new religion, Lutheranism. It’s difficult to overstate the centrality of the Roman church, and its beliefs, in the daily lives of virtually all Europeans, and many other peoples of the old world, for at least 1,000 years. The distorted skull, my least favorite element of the painting because it’s a show-offish trick, says what does it all matter, we all end up like this-skulls and bones. The ultimate human struggle is having to accept that our complex, self-aware, wonderful lives all end in death. I think this is what really separates us from other animals and is at the root of all world religions.
It has been pointed out that the faces are not the most penetrating of Holbein's portrait work. She also points out that the sitters were not together in England for more than a few months. She seems, also to pass off the objects 'on the shelves' as somewhat eclectic, and not perhaps, pointing to the real idea behind the picture.
While the astronomical instruments on the 'top shelf' point the viewer to the heavenly bodies and the arcane world, the objects on the 'bottom shelf', also brilliantly painted, guide the viewer to the achievements of music and mathematics by the human mind in the mundane world below. Before looking at he obscured figure of Our Lord on the Cross, and the cryptic skull at the picture's nadir; I would like to direct you to major painting in which Henry VIII makes a State Visit to Francis I of France "The Field (flag) of the Cloth of Gold". France, not the little broken up pieces of the Holy Roman Empire, is cultural and political centre of Europe. The two portrait subjects are not intellectual or spiritual subjects, they are messengers - Ambassadors. They are representing to the viewer, the position of the Church's teaching on salvation Christ on the Cross), and that of the Calvinists (simplified theology in the form of hymns).
Holbein, is here by the means of his Ambassadors, taking the viewer from the instrument of our salvation, down though the arcane world to our spiritual loss in the mundane creation of the Calvanists in one of their hymn books, to the sign of death itself , the skull.
This painting is a major work of cultural and historical significance in the life of Europe, and should be taken very seriously.
Thank you Dr Kat, in your talk you do at least make the listener THINK. This is a valuable approach to the subject, a subject which is subjective, because it is POETRY.
Love Holbein, but this a difficult one.
That scull really looks like someone slapped a sticker on the painting. (Im aware it's not.)
Perhaps that mankind cannot ascend into the heavens except through the salvation of Christ. That the sacrifice of Jesus is the beacon to the Father. When making the sign of the cross, it is the Father at the upper right.
I think the globe on the bottom shelf is a rattle.
❤️🇨🇦
All is vayne, vayne vanitie
If you’d asked me I would have said they were in their late 30’s , even 40’s. You say the guy on the right is 26! Then I’m not surprised there was a lot of fighting going on. All these Lords, Ladies and Earls were nothing more than a bunch of squabbling kids. Full of testosterone / ego . Very few of them lived long enough to grow wise. The atmosphere at the time must have been something like : Get what you can as fast as you can before deceases , injuries or war finish you off. I’d much rather have old white men running our country than these guys.
Is that the same as the National Portrait Gallery? Excuse the ignorance of this American.