In a regular Elders Quorum meeting one Sunday, we read the parable of the Prodigal Son. God made manifest to me in clear, profound ways the temple aspects of that parable. It was mind blowing. I love this seemingly new, widespread effort to connect and pinpoint all the temple-related aspects to the Book of Mormon scripture. It makes the book come alive for those like me who have read it many times in their lives. It's like it becomes a new book!
Big thanks to Brother Butler for making an audio option for his book, ‘In the language of Adam’. I had no idea until I turned the page! After a beast of a migraine today, it was so great to just turn off the light and listen to wondrous temple wisdom in your voice! What a labor of kindness! Blessings to both of you for your glorious work for the benefit of the Saints!
The tree is the bearer of the fruit. As a sister in Zion I see this as beautiful imaginary representing our Heavenly Mother and our potential to become like Her. We our given a precious gift and power that all women should see as divine and worthy of our efforts. It is a gift that far out weighs anything the word can offer. Loved Brother Butler's book. I would love to go to St. George to listen to him speak. I just can't afford the trip.
I’m starting to understand you David! lol. I love your insights! So many times I have seen my Heavenly Mother in my motherhood as you have seen in the scriptures. I have been thinking a lot about how The Mother interacts with us. Sometimes in Spiritual Witnesses in union with the Father but I have seen Her in my life represented in my generations both forward and back. Specifically once by the spiritual visitation of my grandmother and my future granddaughter. This was in an invitation for me to have a child. The details of this experience and the two future children God had to send me all are coming together so beautifully in my heart. Such a blessing to commune with our Heavenly Parents.
I listened to a Bible scholar from one of the Ivy League universities teach that Isaiah has multiple authors. The proof he stated was that things that he said would occur in the future, actually occurred … & there’s no such thing as prophecy. So it had to be a later writer, who already knew what happened, pretending to be Isaiah & stating it will happen. The funny thing was that one of his explanations for how multiple authors wrote for Isaiah, was “channeling.” A later author was channeling Isaiah’s spirit & writing for him. He had a problem w prophecy, but not channeling. 😂
@@WitnessJesustheChristgreat insight!! Kind of like how the focus of our lives determines our level of joy, whether on our temporal circumstances or on Jesus Christ.
I would love to hear a conversation between Dave Butler and Avraham Gileadi regarding Isaiah. I've read all of Dr. Gileadi's books and I'm currently reading Dave's latest two books.
So much blessings by this person's books!!!!from American friends who brought it to South Africa❤ BOM : 1. Obeys and leaves Jerusalem 2. Sacrifice s and sends kids to difficult area 3. They obtain gospel law book 4. The children go get to get married, chastity way 5. Sacrifices to keep these records for us Wow Holy Spirit Giver of info
Mind blowing. The scriptures are sooooo rich! I will have to watch this a few times to understand it all. Thank you both for sharing your time and knowledge,
I just ordered this book. It will be an interesting read and I'm looking forward to it. This was a deep conversation! Direct! Excellent! For the last few years I've been studying the scriptures looking for all the Hebraisms. It has changed my study, understanding, and appreciation for the BOM! I also keep up with archeology as best I can. The temple covenants have ALWAYS been in existence. I think people go back in their minds to Solomon's temple snd modern temples and that's it. Stepping away from the temple endowments is a serious error! I wonder if it's a convenient excuse to "be free" by denying this part of the restoration? I wasn't raised in the church. What the world has to offer isn't freedom. I believe Joseph was directed and instructed by Jesus Christ. I will never abandon my covenants and thereby welcome the adversary with open arms! Excellent discussion! Can't wait for the book to arrive! . Burning bush/Menorah , tree of Life: bitter and sweet waters. Thank you both!
Have you ever seen the "smooth" side of a placenta? No kidding, many women will make a print of thier baby's placenta - the side that surrounded the baby rather than the s8de secured to mom - because it absolutely looks like a TREE! In fact, art from a placenta is often called "The Tree of Life" because it is, in fact, the appearance of a tree - a tree that gave the new baby(s) life. ❤
As we pass through the veil of the temple we will be greeted and embraced by our Father. Have you ever considered who was with us as we passed through the veil, represented by the placenta, into this mortal world?
42:30. What if just like now we can’t say Covid 19 we have to say the “cough cough” and we can’t say other certain things we have to use codeword that everybody understands. For instance, you can’t really say bullets or ammunition so people say “freedom Seeds“ We really don’t have freedom of speech things are taken down if we say certain words, but they AI isn’t trained to recognize some of the other colloquial things that we might say we can still communicate, but we can’t communicate freely with exact words if that makes sense perhaps when they were writing the Bible and speaking in those times they couldn’t say certain words or express certain ideas so they had to put them in the code
I just was able to get to listen to this and oh how i loved this. This spoke so strongly to my soul. Thank you so much. I wish i had this special gift of understanding on my own but i dont lol so im indeed grateful for both of you. I learn so much and when i read the scriptures i see them differently, more clearly. God bless you both.
I have always thought that the scripture about the seven women taking hold of one man was missing something. There just seem to be more to it than what I was taught. this is giving me food for thought. Thank you very much.
@@scottlittle44 Plain and Precious Things: The Temple Religion of the Book of Mormon's Visionary Men, The Goodness and the Mysteries: On the Path of the Book of Mormon's Visionary Men, In the Language of Adam: Reading Scripture Like the Book of Mormon's Visionary Men
The Deuteronomists were removing the fullness of the gospel as taught by Isaiah. Lehi was a follower of Isaiah as a visionary man, his life was in danger, since the Deuteronomists were removing the records of Isaiah's followers of the fullness of the gospel.
Symbols are great as they can be reinterpreted with other meanings. Nephi sees the same vision Lehi sees and yet sees more or different things. Lehi's vision as described by Dave Butler seems to parallel what had happened in Lehi's recent history. Lehi sees the temple and that the mockers were once the temple goers. The fact that they are still wearing fine clothes seems to indicate they are still going to the temple but their new temple is the great and spacious building that supplanted the old temple. His vision details that the temple practice had changed from how perhaps the Isaiahites, or Northern Kingdom, or pre deuteronomists practiced before the big changes. So it seems this same vision pointed to the past and then when guided by the angel talking to Nephi points to the future.
Look at a college graduation. Caps, tassel, robes, The fine linen outside the temple symbolizing your education in babylon. Education used to be at the temple
As to the last question, "why has the hierarchy been repeatedly flattened?" The thing that was brought to my mind is the Adversary's original desire to supplant God and take all the glory to himself. To do so, he must replace the idea of a family God head with the idea of a single God, which is to say, remove the idea of God the Father, the Divine Mother, and the Only Begotten Son, with a singular being like himself, i.e. Lucifer.
My concern is that the adversary actually will have a counterfeit for our our holy Family (Heavenly Father, the Divine Feminine and the Divine Son). I have been noticing in the book of revelations that there is a triad of evil beings mentioned a being known as the mouth, a being known as the beast, and satan himself.
Contrary to our common symbolism in the Churches interpretation of Lehis Dream, I have always felt the Iron Rod was more of a Scepter and Torch (the Rod of Authority that would be held by a King), which was lighting the path, and which would be used to light the menorah (Tree of Life, whose fruit is the Light of God). Spare the Rod (the word of God), spoil the child.
In reading 1 Nephi 3:29 it seems to me that the angel is more bothered by the fact that Laman and Lemuel are misusing the rod-the symbol of kingship that God has granted to Nephi-than he was by Nephi's suffering. In his book, Dave does point out that the king extends the scepter to supplicants as a token of mercy, which they grasp. This grasping happens 4 times in 1 Nephi 8. There is a similar image in the Sermon on the Mount, involving gifts and hands. Who hath eyes to see, let them see.
The church was cut off from God when He removed His name cretin the church after only a few years. Just because Brigham added it back doesn't mean he was authorized to do so. Pay attendion to the second if: "but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel". The church today had added and taken away despite the wanting from God not to do so. Faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost are THE principles of the Gospel, as taught by joseph. The wording was changed to what it says today that those are just the first principles, implying more is needed. It's a very small but dangerous change.
What I don’t understand is, if Lehi left Jerusalem bc he wanted to keep this knowledge alive and preach it, why aren’t we being taught this in the temples today? Why are we hearing about this through you guys? (Not in a negative way, I love you guys) But if this is true and the gospel has been restored why is this knowledge still lost to the church?
It's not the responsibility of the church to teach us everything. It's more important that we learn through our own study, because it's not the information that is most important; rather what is most important is for us to learn to receive revelation from the Spirit as we learn together as a community. After all, Zion is what we're trying to establish and that doesn't happen at church. It happens when we grow together as a community of Christ.
A question that I'd love to ask Dave: Given that the BOM is written for a current temple going people (us) and that it is constantly inviting the gentiles reading it (also us) to awaken to their awful situation AND that we are commanded to search Isaiah because everything that has been, shall be.... is there the *slightest* chance that those people in the great and spacious building (temple) are actually *us*?? You know, the "righteous" temple going people? And that we have somehow corrupted the temple? I think all too often we identify ourselves with the righteous ones in the BOM, but the more I study it and the words of Isaiah, the more I see us being called out for our pride and idolatry and corruption.
Question: 1. Who would have guided Jesus through the “mysteries?” Are you suggesting he went through an initiation? 2. What is in the parables that were particularly revealing to an initiated person?
Just listening to the conversation again while at work. I'm not sure how i missed this when i watched it yesterday. However, Dave points to an "either/or" translation that can be read as either "a roofless porch" or "a tower." Maybe this adds nothing to the conversation, but i wonder if this has to be either/or at all. In my experience in the Middle East, one of the most common feature of the home is the flat roof where families can gather in the evening. In such a translation, could the reference be about that "roofless porch" atop the home which could be indicative of a tower?
You got me thinking about “Jerusalem” and how there will be a “New Jerusalem” built upon the American continent. I understand that to be literal, but how cool to think that the Mew Jerusalem “births” Christ and ushers him here again. Am I way off? Love any thoughts on this. Loved this episode. It’s so awesome listening to smart people.
If you look at the temple list for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, the number one temple is Independence temple or New Jerusalem. It was dedicated but never built. Eventually, it will be built, and the government of God will be housed at New Jerusalem, Independence Missouri.
@@tenerds4569 of course I’ve seen it! Can’t miss an episode 😂🥰. All this talk has got me seeing things I didn’t before. I love the many layers of symbols. So good.
Regarding your wrap-up discussion of the "why" of the Deuteronomists, etc. This is an obvious point and the most simplistic, of course but there is an ever-present malevolent influence in this world from the father of lies. I learned from reading Bruce Porter's research an emphasis of this point--that Satan vowed to "ascend to yonder throne" and assume the role of The Father. Previous to reading this observation I had presumed his aspirations to take the Father's "honor" ended with his pre-mortal defeat and expulsion. But it stands to reason that with his fight continuing here, his aspirations to assume the role remains intact as well. In fact, I think it's entirely consistent with his tinkering in Eden and everything since. He wants to be THE ONE in control and indeed believes it's OWED to him. Given he has no family, no wife, no son, and never will in order for him to deceive us into replacing the true and living God with his particular brand of counterfeit, he'd need first to eliminate the idea of God's family and all that implies. He needs to "flatten the heirarchy" as you often say, Greg, precisely becasue his vengeful hatred won't allow for any shared glory, even if--and maybe especially since--it's stolen and/or borrowed glory. When it's fake to begin with, there's simply not much to share even if he wanted to! But more to the point, if he is to convince us that "[he is] the only begotten," and that we should "worship [him]" (Moses 1:19) he needs to make sure our coneption of who and what God is matches what he [Satan] is. Another anciallary point--again from Bro. Porter's research materials on his site: Satan's conflict may not have been centered on Jehovah, but more on Adam and Eve. According some ancient writings, his initial sense of victimhood and having been wronged (that is reflected in his servants over and over and over in mortality and the scriptural record) was that he expected to be Adam and was supplanted by Michael whom Lucifer viewed as "younger" and inferior to him (another common scriptural theme). So, it's not entirely unreasonable to expect the focus of his ire to be on Adam and Eve and THEIR family as they are the embodiments of the denial of what he thought he was owed. I know "the devil made me do it" is an obvious argument. But fleshing out the details of the deception that leads to Deuteronomist and related thought tendencies would be both fascinating and likely instructive in helping us resist those temptaions ourselves. For example, right now, I'm feeling wronged because Friday, the 13th is my birthday, and I feel absolutely entitled to be in St. George to meet and listen to David's thoughts live and in person. I'm writhing around like Smeagol griping about my birthday present and rubbing my "In the Language of Adam" book--my Precious, and.... Wow. That took a creepy turn... lol (a little something for Dave's nerd-dom, maybe) Anyway, great conversation with Dave! Thanks so much for sharing this one!
The question asked near the end of the video: What do the Deuteronomists get out of removing the Divine Mother" i think is not quite the right question. Yes, perhaps it has to do with their designs on maintaining some sort of patriarical or masculine power and control. Perhaps this makes them removing the tree of life from the throne of God or heaven. But i think the real question is why would Satan want the Divine Mother removed from theology. If we accept that exaltation is a state only arrived at and participated in as a man sealed to a woman as husband and wife and that this is foundational to Godhood, what better way to mislead and misdirect those seeking "heaven" as they suppose it to be, than to miss-define what it means to be in heaven and luve that life. For heaven's sake we have at least one entire religion, one of the largest and most influential in the world, teaching that it is somehow a higher for of life to live celebate and refuse marriage! What a tragedy in the ultimate plan of God for the exaltation of His children.
Greg, some clarification. In 1 Nephi 11, it is the Holy Ghost, not Jesus, that first appears and speaks with Nephi. How do we know this is the Holy Ghost? In verse 1, Nephi says that he "was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord..." He was caught away "in" the Spirit of the Lord. He wouldn't be "caught away" if it wasn't the Holy Ghost. One of the roles of the Holy Ghost as we see throughout the scriptures is to help people and prophets be "caught away" in order to see spiritual things. Nephi then says in verses 2, 4, & 8, "the Spirit said unto me..." Nephi is referencing "the Spirit", not Jesus. Verse 6 reads, "the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God;" There are two people here, "the Spirit" and "the Lord". If this were Jesus speaking, He wouldn't say, "Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God;" In Verse 11, Nephi says, "I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord;". Nephi knew this was the "Spirit", the Holy Ghost. In verse 12, the Holy Ghost leaves and an angel takes over. In verse 19 Nephi sees that Mary "was carried away in the Spirit;". This is similar to Nephi being "caught away in the Spirit". Again, this is one of the roles of the Holy Ghost, not a role of Jesus. In verse 21 the angel says, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!" Had it been Jesus that first spoke with Nephi, the angel wouldn't need to say, "Behold the Lamb of God" because Nephi would have already beheld "the Lamb of God". Think of it, to my knowledge, there is no other scriptural experience of the Holy Ghost speaking face-to-face with a man or woman. This is a remarkable, spiritual experience that Nephi had. Read and understood this way, I believe it adds greater significance and sacredness to this Book of Mormon chapter.
I agree zeniff has a different tone but his story arc uses much of the creation language...listen to the council in the beginning that led to the rebellion. And then a gathering of willing participants to go and do. The separation from Eden or bountiful and then the return. The language of the zeniff story is following a world history micro-drama to present the falling out of remnant of Israel and a return. It is to teach the remnant of Israel the Nephites and Lamanites that they are not forgotten as the zeniff/people of Alma were not forgotten and they will be restored even as that group was.
I think that what was removed and needs to be returned to the temple (so the church will no longer be under condemnation) is for the Menorah (tree of life) needs to be placed again in the Holy of Holies.
He talks about all the psalms and mentions the valley of the shadow of death specifically. The understanding is that the order of the psalms has been changed at one time much of the endowment or ancient israelite endowment was found in the psalms but were broken up when much of the true ancient israelite religion was changed around the time of Josiah just as the Lehi and his family were leaving into the wilderness. There is also a comparison between the staff that is mentioned and the rod of iron. edited for typo.
1:33:40 Another thought along those lines, maybe so many people aren't willing to use the true name of the church and still stick to referring to ourselves as "Mormons" out of convenience for the world to avoid further antagonism.
"they did receive all manner of wickedness and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness." I'm seeing much more sense in how Nephi's vision follows up from this to the view of the Great and Abominable Church: the pride of the world might seem irreligious, but it tends toward a religion of a different kind. Dave's description of the Deuteronomists resembles Mormon's description of the King-men. From Chesterton's _Orthodoxy_ : "God Himself is a society" - so close, Gilbert, so close. I wouldn't impute the Deuteronomist impulse as much to sexism as to the left hemisphere of the brain.
Satan is outside the family. Following Satan denies family. Putting authority into one personality makes pulling down or replacing the entity with an individual's authority easier. A group is always harder to contend with. Having only one authority position is why contention is always present with Satan and his followers, they are always vying for ultimate authority.
1:26:27 - Mary *is* specifically described as white. Because of that I suspect that Nephi's report of the Lamanites' color change is symbolic: in opposition to the whiteness of Mary and Jesus, those who reject them are symbolically painted black. I like Matthew Bowen's article in _Interpreter_ 13 about word-play on the name "Mary" in Nephi's vision.
The whole thing is God the Father bringing His children back to His love, our Heavenly Mother through His Son ‘s return to His Mother and thus the Father, Godhood, and those of us who chose to be as They are A Holy Couple to fulfill the measure of our creation and multiply and replenish the Eternities, as They do.
Gregg, you asked the very important question of why people do this? Satan is real if he can influence the hearts of men, he will do it in every way shape manner form he can. If he can get a leader, specially a religious leader to go along with his plan how many people can he influence?
Wow, Jacob was looking at a written document…. What should it be? I would suggest going back to 1 Nephi, in chapter 3 there is an account of Lehi telling his sons that God ordained them to go back to Jerusalem and get the brass plates….. seriously….. Sorry, it’s always a pleasure to listen to you Greg! But I don’t know if I’ll make it to the end of the video.
You don’t need to be enamored with every conversation or guest that Greg has on. Totally fine if it’s not your cup of tea. However, I would respectfully submit that you may have missed the point of his comment.
I know this was a few weeks ago but I just got time to listen to it. I am not as knowledgeable as you but at the end you ask the question, what do they (the deuteronomists?) get out of this? I don't mean to put scripture down but the question changed in my mind to: what does Satan get out of this? And that question seems to make the answer more obvious.
I have wondered why we didn’t have more scripture about the mother in heaven. I have accepted that it was for protection of her name , that I was taught in my youth. However, I am wondering now, if the lifting of the veil of the women in the temple is a type of the lifting of the veil of knowledge about our mother in heaven. I think we will be given more information from scholars as we go forward.
I think it’s the stage of wedding planning and performance that we are at. You’ve got to watch the podcast Stick of Joseph does with a guest named Andrea about the 10 Virgins. It’s deep.
I think the tree of life also connects to righteous or wise generations. I think that the messiah is the descendant of that line with wise women as they are the ones who teach the generations to be righteous and wise. The second tree can also represent wickedness with Christ on it being the sacrifice. Partially they can also represent atonement and death/resurrection as the righteous gain the atonement and the wicked gain resurrection. It is the garden and the cross. Also the brazen serpent is connected to the cross while the other tree in the holy of holies is the garden. My thoughts, definitely not an expert or even can read much hebrew.
Excellent content by two excellent dudes! I've always thought of the Tree of Life to be the literal eternal family tree of Godkind. :>) Thanks Greg! Matsen/Butler 2028 !! 😆
The KJV is good for searching words and cross-referencing with the BoM, but it is not great for reading and has a few problems. It's best to have the KJV open in parallel with better translations.
I really like the translation done in “The New Jerusalem Bible”. It offers so many insights. Read its history. I stay awake reading this version of the Old and New Testaments.
I gotta ask are we the descendants of the of Isaiah and his revelations? Is that the simplest way of summarizing this? My mind is blown. I grew up in Las Vegas and i absolutely love 1 Nephi. Because to me Lehi's dream is physically in front of me everyday. The tree being the temple and everywhere else the grand and spacious buildings and water
Greg, I’ve heard this conversation from both sides for a while now and I’ve never seen Dave squirm so much trying to soften the blow about his idea of the tree of life 😂😂😂 I don’t think it’s a bad thing, but it’s telling that he really doesn’t see it any other way but he was trying (and failing 😂😂😂) really hard not to start an argument about it. I think it’s fine that there are two positions here. The old question comes to mind, “How long halt ye between two opinions?” If both positions are articulated well, then it’s up to the listener to determine which version sets well with them. I am curious though… Since Dave’s come on the scene, are there any shifts in your previous perspectives that you’ve both taught and written about? I know my own opinions have greatly shifted listening to all the diverse conversations. 😁
so we understand from joseph that earth’s original language, and without much need for “revelation” per se, just super insightful observation, was what we call the adamic language. makes sense. so, i’m curious as a somethings kind of amusing to me, what might we term the language god spoke to adam? perhaps the “godamic” language? 😊
If you have the demands of a self sacrificial deity as your prototype of virtue and valiance especially for the high priests and perhaps have demands of reenactments to demonstrate the stripes and smiters that the self sacrificial Messiah is to be then perhaps there is a strong justification for distancing yourself from that as power focused ruling class. A ruling class set on power over others. Also centralizing the theology under a non self sacrificial theology is highly beneficial to said ruling class
To me, the constant removal from is playing out the curse of Eve. In Genesis 3:16 “thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” This feels less like God giving dominion of the husband over the wife and more saying now woman will be subject to the nature of man which is to seek power and dominion. Everything in the gospel is a similitude of our Heavenly Family to point us home. God is trying to teach us to be like Him, which would include the power of dominion over the universe (co-dominion with God through priesthood) and the power of creation. On earth, and I believe to drive us together as a pairing in the way God the Father and God the Mother are paired, each gender is given 1 of the 2 roles so that together we can work towards being as God with both. Men are given the power of the priesthood and women are given the power of creation, 2 halves to a whole. The pride of man wants the power and to seem all in one as God already is, rather than working through our pairing of halves to get there. If there is a Heavenly Mother, you have to admit to halves to a whole and that man is equal to woman. By removing Her, you remove the equivalence as woman to man and give men the upper hand, fulfilling Eve’s curse of the husband ruling over her. It is our job to understand the equal importance of both roles and cleave into our spouse and become one flesh, becoming a pair that has both, in similitude of the Parents we are trying to become like.
🎉 When you attend, and it's suddenly foreign, I stayed to say something. A Kay step, when my firm of $ wasn't welcomed or received as a tithe/officer ingredient. 38:01
That last part of the conversation… maybe the Deuteronomists viewed women as our society at large does today? As either objects or as non existent. As an object, it would motivate to remove as any kind of deity, or, as non existent. It could be that these claiming to profess the truth were into some pretty bad acts etc. I don’t know just a thought going along with Dave on the way Isaiah views the removal of the tree. Very cool, felt the spirit pretty strong. I also feel very inadequate in my Isaiah understanding, and hope as long as I am trying the Lord will be merciful in my ignorance.
The First Menorah had 7 Candles, I always felt that was the 7 Women. But 7 is also the number of completion in Jewish Numerology, so it could be coincidental, but I doubt it personally.
Our divinely inspired constitution is in danger in this same manner; where people are now taking sweet for bitter, and calling evil good and good evil. We are in the same danger Israel faced with Hezekiah 's followers taking the Menorah out of the temple.
Could there be a sort of neo-deuteronomist connection with the Islamic surah Al-an”am? He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion [i.e., wife] and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. ([6] Al-An'am : 101) Eliminate the family by denying the mother?
I had a Jewish guy who hadn’t heard to the BOM tell me this. I found it interesting as it was Lehi who have the tree of life vision. לי-חי לי To me/for me -(Lee) חי Alive/living -(Hai) Together it can be translated as life to me or exists to me
I've never counted before, but you said it says to grasp the Word (Christ) 4 times! 🤯 Talk about being careful what you say and speaking in code. Those who know...
Your question about why men keep trying to eliminate the idea of a godly family makes me wonder about Satan himself. Why is he pushing that idea so hard? He must have some sort of a grudge against Heavenly Mother, I would think. Also, if you get rid of the idea of heavenly families, you get rid of the idea that we can all become like our Father some day. If you erase our potential, you erase our motivation. That's what I think, anyway...
If you’re asking THAT question, then may I recommend Stick of Joseph’s interview with Margaret Barker on the destruction of Heavenly Mother by the Deuteronomists? (She’s a Methodist 😁 But that conversation has strong legs to stand on its own.
Someone said the type of attention you pay governs what you find. And that attention is a moral act. How some folks who are familiar with Josiah and don’t see the strong setting the BOM finds itself in is beyond me
The attitude of the members aren’t seeing the power of God, if they think Joseph copied the masons. The temple (gospel was restored by God through Joseph Smith, it had been and He was restoring it back to its true version using that which was left on the earth and used by those who know not what they had and thus adulterated it for evil purposes. Adam received the fullness of the gospel but even Cain took holy knowledge and adulterated thus giving an unholy sacrifice. Each book of scripture speaks of the endowment of the temple, ie, the sermon on the mount or the olive grove of the book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon. Great and spacious building is the second room. And Christ had to condescend to ascend so must we. I will be studying the words of King Abindi. When he was brought to the thrown of the king Noah, with the endowment of the temple in mind.
These signs shall follow believers ... they shall pick up snakes 🐍, the Nehushtan, our high priest, the King of Kings, Jesus Christ, our Saviour to direct others to look toward him with faith and a contrite heart, for salvation and eternal life.
Greg and Dave. Israel wasn't supposed to have kings. Any ideas on how this all looked before the time of Saul? Back in the time of the patriarchs. Any research on this?
Many religions and philosophies worship a similar, single spiritual entity. It's remarkable, if you think about it, that it is a really good description of our elder brother, Lucifer, the devil. Get humankind to worship him. Something to think about.
Lucifer was our brother, but he was cast out of Heaven and the family of God and became Satan. He was disinherited or disowned and is no longer a brother.
The reason they are so bent on removing everything is because they have a monotheistic civilizational strategy that centralizes authority to command a nation/nations. Whereas those who believe in the family of God have a polytheistic or at minimum henotheist theology that allows for cooperation and reciprocity and obedience to common, concurrent natural law which produces settlement of disputes. What's ironic is their strategy is a cognitively feminine one and the polytheistic strategy is the cognitively masculine one, this is counter intuitive I understand but I'll explain even though it will be hard to do so in this formate. Women, when in an unhealthy cognitive state, are hyper consumptive, hypergamous, and fierce saboteurs that engage in undermining (gossiping, rallying, ridiculing, shaming, moralizing, psychologizing, reputation destruction, and escalation to doxxing, petty litigation, rolling accusations, etc. in order to secure resources for themselves and their offspring while excluding other women access to such. when this is scaled up to a civilization you get all of this amplified (just think of our current elites and their use of social media, mainstream media, department of education and academia more broadly, etc). this is the feminine means of coercion when undomesticated via legal prohibition due to its antisocial nature and the large costs it imposes. they view the mother Goddess in her proper context as a threat to their ability to extract resources from the commons. The masculine means of coercion is what you would expect, physical violence. the have domesticated the masculine means of coercion with things like prohibitions on dueling, Westphalia agreement, Geneva convention, etc. we have not went through the process of domesticating the feminine means in the same way. this is also why Jews, get pointed out so often as a problem, because they are in fact coming from that civilizational strategy and it is only a subset that do not and those who are euro/anglocentric tend to be more polytheistic in their norms and traditions even when not so in their theology with only a subset that lean into the feminine cognition. I understand this will likely be controversial and I haven't done a great job explaining due to the formate here so if you have any questions as to what I mean please ask.
The Deuteronomy literally made our Father in Heaven a God who had no body parts or passions. Excepts for the passions it really sounds like Satan. So who did they really create or worship?
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/n.gif)
In a regular Elders Quorum meeting one Sunday, we read the parable of the Prodigal Son. God made manifest to me in clear, profound ways the temple aspects of that parable. It was mind blowing. I love this seemingly new, widespread effort to connect and pinpoint all the temple-related aspects to the Book of Mormon scripture. It makes the book come alive for those like me who have read it many times in their lives. It's like it becomes a new book!
Big thanks to Brother Butler for making an audio option for his book, ‘In the language of Adam’. I had no idea until I turned the page! After a beast of a migraine today, it was so great to just turn off the light and listen to wondrous temple wisdom in your voice! What a labor of kindness! Blessings to both of you for your glorious work for the benefit of the Saints!
I downloaded the audible version today!
I need that!
David Butler expounds on things I have probably heard before, but when he does it, it blows my mind all over again.
Right?! Even when I've heard HIM say it before, it still blows my mind the next time!
This is because the Spirit can confirm the truth of it again and again, refreshing and deepening the awe of the testifying experience.
I appreciate that Greg and Dave can have courteous differences of interpretation. Great discussion.
Bring Dave Butler back. He is outstanding and I just decided mid interview to get the audio version of his book "In the language of Adam." Can't wait!
The tree is the bearer of the fruit. As a sister in Zion I see this as beautiful imaginary representing our Heavenly Mother and our potential to become like Her. We our given a precious gift and power that all women should see as divine and worthy of our efforts. It is a gift that far out weighs anything the word can offer. Loved Brother Butler's book. I would love to go to St. George to listen to him speak. I just can't afford the trip.
I’m starting to understand you David! lol. I love your insights! So many times I have seen my Heavenly Mother in my motherhood as you have seen in the scriptures. I have been thinking a lot about how The Mother interacts with us. Sometimes in Spiritual Witnesses in union with the Father but I have seen Her in my life represented in my generations both forward and back. Specifically once by the spiritual visitation of my grandmother and my future granddaughter. This was in an invitation for me to have a child. The details of this experience and the two future children God had to send me all are coming together so beautifully in my heart. Such a blessing to commune with our Heavenly Parents.
I listened to a Bible scholar from one of the Ivy League universities teach that Isaiah has multiple authors. The proof he stated was that things that he said would occur in the future, actually occurred … & there’s no such thing as prophecy. So it had to be a later writer, who already knew what happened, pretending to be Isaiah & stating it will happen. The funny thing was that one of his explanations for how multiple authors wrote for Isaiah, was “channeling.” A later author was channeling Isaiah’s spirit & writing for him. He had a problem w prophecy, but not channeling. 😂
Well, that is strange, there is channeling, but no prophecy??? I believe in prophecy, not chann😅!!!
Darkness for light, light for darkness, bitter for sweet I had no idea this had a different meaning. Wow, this is so good!
Repeatly blown away by the depth and poetry of the Book of Mormon
This stood out to me as well this time. What makes the water bitter or sweet? The presence of The Tree. This really plies to our daily lives!
@@WitnessJesustheChristgreat insight!! Kind of like how the focus of our lives determines our level of joy, whether on our temporal circumstances or on Jesus Christ.
I would love to hear a conversation between Dave Butler and Avraham Gileadi regarding Isaiah. I've read all of Dr. Gileadi's books and I'm currently reading Dave's latest two books.
So much blessings by this person's books!!!!from American friends who brought it to South Africa❤
BOM :
1. Obeys and leaves Jerusalem
2. Sacrifice s and sends kids to difficult area
3. They obtain gospel law book
4. The children go get to get married, chastity way
5. Sacrifices to keep these records for us
Wow Holy Spirit Giver of info
Mind blowing. The scriptures are sooooo rich! I will have to watch this a few times to understand it all. Thank you both for sharing your time and knowledge,
I just ordered this book. It will be an interesting read and I'm looking forward to it. This was a deep conversation! Direct! Excellent!
For the last few years I've been studying the scriptures looking for all the Hebraisms. It has changed my study, understanding, and appreciation for the BOM! I also keep up with archeology as best I can. The temple covenants have ALWAYS been in existence. I think people go back in their minds to Solomon's temple snd modern temples and that's it. Stepping away from the temple endowments is a serious error! I wonder if it's a convenient excuse to "be free" by denying this part of the restoration? I wasn't raised in the church. What the world has to offer isn't freedom. I believe Joseph was directed and instructed by Jesus Christ. I will never abandon my covenants and thereby welcome the adversary with open arms!
Excellent discussion! Can't wait for the book to arrive! . Burning bush/Menorah , tree of Life: bitter and sweet waters. Thank you both!
Make sure you watch the bonus content!
Did you watch the stick of Joseph changed channel with Andrea W. The ancient Hebrew wedding.
If not go watch. Eye opening
Have you ever seen the "smooth" side of a placenta? No kidding, many women will make a print of thier baby's placenta - the side that surrounded the baby rather than the s8de secured to mom - because it absolutely looks like a TREE! In fact, art from a placenta is often called "The Tree of Life" because it is, in fact, the appearance of a tree - a tree that gave the new baby(s) life. ❤
As we pass through the veil of the temple we will be greeted and embraced by our Father. Have you ever considered who was with us as we passed through the veil, represented by the placenta, into this mortal world?
❤❤❤
@@terrel_shumwaythe one at the send off and the other to welcome us back
That was sooo good! Thank you so much for opening up this temple footprint in the scriptures! This changes the way I read them now!
Love hearing that!
I enjoyed hearing from both of you at the BOM Conference. Thanks for sharing your insights.
When was this BOM CON
You had me at "Lehi was R2D2"
Greg and Dave wonderfully insightful thanks for sharing 😊
42:30. What if just like now we can’t say Covid 19 we have to say the “cough cough” and we can’t say other certain things we have to use codeword that everybody understands. For instance, you can’t really say bullets or ammunition so people say “freedom Seeds“
We really don’t have freedom of speech things are taken down if we say certain words, but they AI isn’t trained to recognize some of the other colloquial things that we might say we can still communicate, but we can’t communicate freely with exact words if that makes sense perhaps when they were writing the Bible and speaking in those times they couldn’t say certain words or express certain ideas so they had to put them in the code
Our pleasure!
@@babymacbeanI believe this to be pervasive.
@@babymacbeanwe can say covid 19 or covid . No one says the cough ??
2 of my favorite people! I have all three of Dave's books, and they are excellent if you want to have a greater understanding of the temple.
This episode is so interesting and enlightening! Thank you so much for sharing this light and truth. ❤😊
I just was able to get to listen to this and oh how i loved this. This spoke so strongly to my soul. Thank you so much. I wish i had this special gift of understanding on my own but i dont lol so im indeed grateful for both of you. I learn so much and when i read the scriptures i see them differently, more clearly. God bless you both.
Amazing! Please have more Dave Butler!
Thank you for this. You have brought my thinking to a new level.
Thank you so much! All I can say is More Please!
I have always thought that the scripture about the seven women taking hold of one man was missing something. There just seem to be more to it than what I was taught. this is giving me food for thought. Thank you very much.
Plain and Precious Publishing. Best book ever!
I'm working through his 3 books
@primafacie5029 what r his 3 book titles plz
@@scottlittle44 Plain and Precious Things: The Temple Religion of the Book of Mormon's Visionary Men, The Goodness and the Mysteries: On the Path of the Book of Mormon's Visionary Men, In the Language of Adam: Reading Scripture Like the Book of Mormon's Visionary Men
This was so good, I have to listen again.
I just realized that the Tree of Life, Jacobs Ladder and the Temple are the same thing. The temple is in the beginning of the scriptures
Once you start to see it, you will find it everywhere, and then you can't un-see it.
The Deuteronomists were removing the fullness of the gospel as taught by Isaiah. Lehi was a follower of Isaiah as a visionary man, his life was in danger, since the Deuteronomists were removing the records of Isaiah's followers of the fullness of the gospel.
This discussion made me think: Do our present-day prophets speak in code, or do they state plain and precious things clearly?
Do they do both?
Symbols are great as they can be reinterpreted with other meanings. Nephi sees the same vision Lehi sees and yet sees more or different things. Lehi's vision as described by Dave Butler seems to parallel what had happened in Lehi's recent history. Lehi sees the temple and that the mockers were once the temple goers. The fact that they are still wearing fine clothes seems to indicate they are still going to the temple but their new temple is the great and spacious building that supplanted the old temple. His vision details that the temple practice had changed from how perhaps the Isaiahites, or Northern Kingdom, or pre deuteronomists practiced before the big changes. So it seems this same vision pointed to the past and then when guided by the angel talking to Nephi points to the future.
Look at a college graduation. Caps, tassel, robes,
The fine linen outside the temple symbolizing your education in babylon. Education used to be at the temple
Such a great discussion. Have Dave on often.
Great content as always. ❤
Dave is always great!
As to the last question, "why has the hierarchy been repeatedly flattened?" The thing that was brought to my mind is the Adversary's original desire to supplant God and take all the glory to himself. To do so, he must replace the idea of a family God head with the idea of a single God, which is to say, remove the idea of God the Father, the Divine Mother, and the Only Begotten Son, with a singular being like himself, i.e. Lucifer.
My concern is that the adversary actually will have a counterfeit for our our holy Family (Heavenly Father, the Divine Feminine and the Divine Son). I have been noticing in the book of revelations that there is a triad of evil beings mentioned a being known as the mouth, a being known as the beast, and satan himself.
He copies everything. He has a trinity, a 12, a 70s..etc. he
Contrary to our common symbolism in the Churches interpretation of Lehis Dream, I have always felt the Iron Rod was more of a Scepter and Torch (the Rod of Authority that would be held by a King), which was lighting the path, and which would be used to light the menorah (Tree of Life, whose fruit is the Light of God). Spare the Rod (the word of God), spoil the child.
You would be blessed by reading “Rethinking the Rod of Iron” by T.J. Uriona.
In reading 1 Nephi 3:29 it seems to me that the angel is more bothered by the fact that Laman and Lemuel are misusing the rod-the symbol of kingship that God has granted to Nephi-than he was by Nephi's suffering.
In his book, Dave does point out that the king extends the scepter to supplicants as a token of mercy, which they grasp. This grasping happens 4 times in 1 Nephi 8.
There is a similar image in the Sermon on the Mount, involving gifts and hands.
Who hath eyes to see, let them see.
The church was cut off from God when He removed His name cretin the church after only a few years. Just because Brigham added it back doesn't mean he was authorized to do so. Pay attendion to the second if: "but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel". The church today had added and taken away despite the wanting from God not to do so. Faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost are THE principles of the Gospel, as taught by joseph. The wording was changed to what it says today that those are just the first principles, implying more is needed. It's a very small but dangerous change.
So sorry you think that way, which is just not true.
What I don’t understand is, if Lehi left Jerusalem bc he wanted to keep this knowledge alive and preach it, why aren’t we being taught this in the temples today?
Why are we hearing about this through you guys? (Not in a negative way, I love you guys)
But if this is true and the gospel has been restored why is this knowledge still lost to the church?
It's not the responsibility of the church to teach us everything. It's more important that we learn through our own study, because it's not the information that is most important; rather what is most important is for us to learn to receive revelation from the Spirit as we learn together as a community. After all, Zion is what we're trying to establish and that doesn't happen at church. It happens when we grow together as a community of Christ.
The temple of God is God's university to prepare us for entering and being comfortable in His presence!
A question that I'd love to ask Dave: Given that the BOM is written for a current temple going people (us) and that it is constantly inviting the gentiles reading it (also us) to awaken to their awful situation AND that we are commanded to search Isaiah because everything that has been, shall be.... is there the *slightest* chance that those people in the great and spacious building (temple) are actually *us*?? You know, the "righteous" temple going people? And that we have somehow corrupted the temple? I think all too often we identify ourselves with the righteous ones in the BOM, but the more I study it and the words of Isaiah, the more I see us being called out for our pride and idolatry and corruption.
Love Dave Butler! Great episode!!!
I watch everything I can get my hands on with Dave Butler, read all 3 of his books. He's amazing.
Dave Butler has competent changed how I read the BOM
Question: 1. Who would have guided Jesus through the “mysteries?” Are you suggesting he went through an initiation? 2. What is in the parables that were particularly revealing to an initiated person?
1. God the father revealed the mysteries to Christ 2. Read the book. The first several chapters reframe the sermon on the mount.
@@nickallen2288 So, you are saying the book claims Heavenly Father put Christ through the initiation? Seems reasonable, but is there a citation?
Just listening to the conversation again while at work. I'm not sure how i missed this when i watched it yesterday. However, Dave points to an "either/or" translation that can be read as either "a roofless porch" or "a tower." Maybe this adds nothing to the conversation, but i wonder if this has to be either/or at all. In my experience in the Middle East, one of the most common feature of the home is the flat roof where families can gather in the evening. In such a translation, could the reference be about that "roofless porch" atop the home which could be indicative of a tower?
You got me thinking about “Jerusalem” and how there will be a “New Jerusalem” built upon the American continent. I understand that to be literal, but how cool to think that the Mew Jerusalem “births” Christ and ushers him here again. Am I way off? Love any thoughts on this.
Loved this episode. It’s so awesome listening to smart people.
New Jerusalem is the Bride, see Revelation 21:2. The Endtime is seen as the Messianic Wedding Banquet. (Isa. 25:6-7)
If you look at the temple list for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, the number one temple is Independence temple or New Jerusalem. It was dedicated but never built. Eventually, it will be built, and the government of God will be housed at New Jerusalem, Independence Missouri.
If you have seen the Stick of Joseph Channel with Andea W. Ancient Hebrew wedding.. go watch
@@tenerds4569 of course I’ve seen it! Can’t miss an episode 😂🥰. All this talk has got me seeing things I didn’t before. I love the many layers of symbols. So good.
@@tenerds4569 That episode on the Stick of Joseph was inspiring! Andrea Woodmansee has so much to share!
Thank you.
Regarding your wrap-up discussion of the "why" of the Deuteronomists, etc. This is an obvious point and the most simplistic, of course but there is an ever-present malevolent influence in this world from the father of lies. I learned from reading Bruce Porter's research an emphasis of this point--that Satan vowed to "ascend to yonder throne" and assume the role of The Father. Previous to reading this observation I had presumed his aspirations to take the Father's "honor" ended with his pre-mortal defeat and expulsion. But it stands to reason that with his fight continuing here, his aspirations to assume the role remains intact as well. In fact, I think it's entirely consistent with his tinkering in Eden and everything since. He wants to be THE ONE in control and indeed believes it's OWED to him.
Given he has no family, no wife, no son, and never will in order for him to deceive us into replacing the true and living God with his particular brand of counterfeit, he'd need first to eliminate the idea of God's family and all that implies. He needs to "flatten the heirarchy" as you often say, Greg, precisely becasue his vengeful hatred won't allow for any shared glory, even if--and maybe especially since--it's stolen and/or borrowed glory. When it's fake to begin with, there's simply not much to share even if he wanted to! But more to the point, if he is to convince us that "[he is] the only begotten," and that we should "worship [him]" (Moses 1:19) he needs to make sure our coneption of who and what God is matches what he [Satan] is.
Another anciallary point--again from Bro. Porter's research materials on his site: Satan's conflict may not have been centered on Jehovah, but more on Adam and Eve. According some ancient writings, his initial sense of victimhood and having been wronged (that is reflected in his servants over and over and over in mortality and the scriptural record) was that he expected to be Adam and was supplanted by Michael whom Lucifer viewed as "younger" and inferior to him (another common scriptural theme). So, it's not entirely unreasonable to expect the focus of his ire to be on Adam and Eve and THEIR family as they are the embodiments of the denial of what he thought he was owed.
I know "the devil made me do it" is an obvious argument. But fleshing out the details of the deception that leads to Deuteronomist and related thought tendencies would be both fascinating and likely instructive in helping us resist those temptaions ourselves.
For example, right now, I'm feeling wronged because Friday, the 13th is my birthday, and I feel absolutely entitled to be in St. George to meet and listen to David's thoughts live and in person. I'm writhing around like Smeagol griping about my birthday present and rubbing my "In the Language of Adam" book--my Precious, and....
Wow. That took a creepy turn... lol (a little something for Dave's nerd-dom, maybe)
Anyway, great conversation with Dave! Thanks so much for sharing this one!
The question asked near the end of the video: What do the Deuteronomists get out of removing the Divine Mother" i think is not quite the right question. Yes, perhaps it has to do with their designs on maintaining some sort of patriarical or masculine power and control. Perhaps this makes them removing the tree of life from the throne of God or heaven. But i think the real question is why would Satan want the Divine Mother removed from theology. If we accept that exaltation is a state only arrived at and participated in as a man sealed to a woman as husband and wife and that this is foundational to Godhood, what better way to mislead and misdirect those seeking "heaven" as they suppose it to be, than to miss-define what it means to be in heaven and luve that life. For heaven's sake we have at least one entire religion, one of the largest and most influential in the world, teaching that it is somehow a higher for of life to live celebate and refuse marriage! What a tragedy in the ultimate plan of God for the exaltation of His children.
❤ 40:03
This is fascination.
I have a few questions... not here though.
May be ill finish it a lilt later. 👍
Greg, some clarification. In 1 Nephi 11, it is the Holy Ghost, not Jesus, that first appears and speaks with Nephi. How do we know this is the Holy Ghost? In verse 1, Nephi says that he "was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord..." He was caught away "in" the Spirit of the Lord. He wouldn't be "caught away" if it wasn't the Holy Ghost. One of the roles of the Holy Ghost as we see throughout the scriptures is to help people and prophets be "caught away" in order to see spiritual things. Nephi then says in verses 2, 4, & 8, "the Spirit said unto me..." Nephi is referencing "the Spirit", not Jesus. Verse 6 reads, "the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God;" There are two people here, "the Spirit" and "the Lord". If this were Jesus speaking, He wouldn't say, "Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God;" In Verse 11, Nephi says, "I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord;". Nephi knew this was the "Spirit", the Holy Ghost. In verse 12, the Holy Ghost leaves and an angel takes over. In verse 19 Nephi sees that Mary "was carried away in the Spirit;". This is similar to Nephi being "caught away in the Spirit". Again, this is one of the roles of the Holy Ghost, not a role of Jesus. In verse 21 the angel says, "Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!" Had it been Jesus that first spoke with Nephi, the angel wouldn't need to say, "Behold the Lamb of God" because Nephi would have already beheld "the Lamb of God".
Think of it, to my knowledge, there is no other scriptural experience of the Holy Ghost speaking face-to-face with a man or woman. This is a remarkable, spiritual experience that Nephi had. Read and understood this way, I believe it adds greater significance and sacredness to this Book of Mormon chapter.
Read this book and loved it
I agree zeniff has a different tone but his story arc uses much of the creation language...listen to the council in the beginning that led to the rebellion. And then a gathering of willing participants to go and do. The separation from Eden or bountiful and then the return. The language of the zeniff story is following a world history micro-drama to present the falling out of remnant of Israel and a return. It is to teach the remnant of Israel the Nephites and Lamanites that they are not forgotten as the zeniff/people of Alma were not forgotten and they will be restored even as that group was.
Fine linen, tree of life, ascending no way!!! OMGOSH!!! Luv this!!!
I think that what was removed and needs to be returned to the temple (so the church will no longer be under condemnation) is for the Menorah (tree of life) needs to be placed again in the Holy of Holies.
Thinking about a comparison between Lehi's vision and the 23rd Psalm. Has Dave ever talked about this?
He talks about all the psalms and mentions the valley of the shadow of death specifically. The understanding is that the order of the psalms has been changed at one time much of the endowment or ancient israelite endowment was found in the psalms but were broken up when much of the true ancient israelite religion was changed around the time of Josiah just as the Lehi and his family were leaving into the wilderness. There is also a comparison between the staff that is mentioned and the rod of iron. edited for typo.
1:33:40 Another thought along those lines, maybe so many people aren't willing to use the true name of the church and still stick to referring to ourselves as "Mormons" out of convenience for the world to avoid further antagonism.
"they did receive all manner of wickedness and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness."
I'm seeing much more sense in how Nephi's vision follows up from this to the view of the Great and Abominable Church: the pride of the world might seem irreligious, but it tends toward a religion of a different kind.
Dave's description of the Deuteronomists resembles Mormon's description of the King-men.
From Chesterton's _Orthodoxy_ : "God Himself is a society" - so close, Gilbert, so close.
I wouldn't impute the Deuteronomist impulse as much to sexism as to the left hemisphere of the brain.
Satan is outside the family. Following Satan denies family. Putting authority into one personality makes pulling down or replacing the entity with an individual's authority easier. A group is always harder to contend with. Having only one authority position is why contention is always present with Satan and his followers, they are always vying for ultimate authority.
Apparently I got lost in this discussion because I don't understand where he got the words for the various rooms, etc. in Lehi's dream.
These are the names from Solomon’s Temple
Great discussion! I'm alittle bit confused at 1:06...where yall are discussing Lot...how can men r*** angels? Is that even possible? Just curious.
1:26:27 - Mary *is* specifically described as white. Because of that I suspect that Nephi's report of the Lamanites' color change is symbolic: in opposition to the whiteness of Mary and Jesus, those who reject them are symbolically painted black.
I like Matthew Bowen's article in _Interpreter_ 13 about word-play on the name "Mary" in Nephi's vision.
The whole thing is God the Father bringing His children back to His love, our Heavenly Mother through His Son ‘s return to His Mother and thus the Father, Godhood, and those of us who chose to be as They are A Holy Couple to fulfill the measure of our creation and multiply and replenish the Eternities, as They do.
Thank you.
Gregg, you asked the very important question of why people do this? Satan is real if he can influence the hearts of men, he will do it in every way shape manner form he can. If he can get a leader, specially a religious leader to go along with his plan how many people can he influence?
Where do I purchase the book ?
Plain and Precious Publishing
And Amazon.
Wow, Jacob was looking at a written document…. What should it be? I would suggest going back to 1 Nephi, in chapter 3 there is an account of Lehi telling his sons that God ordained them to go back to Jerusalem and get the brass plates….. seriously….. Sorry, it’s always a pleasure to listen to you Greg! But I don’t know if I’ll make it to the end of the video.
You don’t need to be enamored with every conversation or guest that Greg has on. Totally fine if it’s not your cup of tea. However, I would respectfully submit that you may have missed the point of his comment.
I know this was a few weeks ago but I just got time to listen to it. I am not as knowledgeable as you but at the end you ask the question, what do they (the deuteronomists?) get out of this? I don't mean to put scripture down but the question changed in my mind to: what does Satan get out of this? And that question seems to make the answer more obvious.
I have wondered why we didn’t have more scripture about the mother in heaven. I have accepted that it was for protection of her name , that I was taught in my youth. However, I am wondering now, if the lifting of the veil of the women in the temple is a type of the lifting of the veil of knowledge about our mother in heaven. I think we will be given more information from scholars as we go forward.
I think it’s the stage of wedding planning and performance that we are at. You’ve got to watch the podcast Stick of Joseph does with a guest named Andrea about the 10 Virgins. It’s deep.
Amen to the Amanda podcast
Heavenly mother is so very sacred, perhaps she should be reserved for sacred spaces, ie, temples. Butt maybe we are ready for more. I don't know.
I think the tree of life also connects to righteous or wise generations. I think that the messiah is the descendant of that line with wise women as they are the ones who teach the generations to be righteous and wise.
The second tree can also represent wickedness with Christ on it being the sacrifice. Partially they can also represent atonement and death/resurrection as the righteous gain the atonement and the wicked gain resurrection.
It is the garden and the cross.
Also the brazen serpent is connected to the cross while the other tree in the holy of holies is the garden.
My thoughts, definitely not an expert or even can read much hebrew.
Excellent content by two excellent dudes! I've always thought of the Tree of Life to be the literal eternal family tree of Godkind. :>)
Thanks Greg! Matsen/Butler 2028 !! 😆
The KJV is good for searching words and cross-referencing with the BoM, but it is not great for reading and has a few problems. It's best to have the KJV open in parallel with better translations.
I really like the translation done in “The New Jerusalem Bible”. It offers so many insights. Read its history. I stay awake reading this version of the Old and New Testaments.
I see what happened to the Nephites in 4 Nephi is happening now to the saints now.
1:03 .... What if the seven women are 7 churches come to the priesthood?
I gotta ask are we the descendants of the of Isaiah and his revelations? Is that the simplest way of summarizing this? My mind is blown. I grew up in Las Vegas and i absolutely love 1 Nephi. Because to me Lehi's dream is physically in front of me everyday. The tree being the temple and everywhere else the grand and spacious buildings and water
I have a question. Does Isaiah 4:5, when mention cloud and fire, relate to the Shekinah, who relate to mother in heaven?
Shekinah is the divine glory God possesses, therefore heavenly mother must also because she and the father are one.
Greg, I’ve heard this conversation from both sides for a while now and I’ve never seen Dave squirm so much trying to soften the blow about his idea of the tree of life 😂😂😂
I don’t think it’s a bad thing, but it’s telling that he really doesn’t see it any other way but he was trying (and failing 😂😂😂) really hard not to start an argument about it.
I think it’s fine that there are two positions here.
The old question comes to mind, “How long halt ye between two opinions?”
If both positions are articulated well, then it’s up to the listener to determine which version sets well with them.
I am curious though…
Since Dave’s come on the scene, are there any shifts in your previous perspectives that you’ve both taught and written about?
I know my own opinions have greatly shifted listening to all the diverse conversations. 😁
so we understand from joseph that earth’s original language, and without much need for “revelation” per se, just super insightful observation, was what we call the adamic language. makes sense. so, i’m curious as a somethings kind of amusing to me, what might we term the language god spoke to adam? perhaps the “godamic” language? 😊
Thanks!
Welcome! Thank you!
If you have the demands of a self sacrificial deity as your prototype of virtue and valiance especially for the high priests and perhaps have demands of reenactments to demonstrate the stripes and smiters that the self sacrificial Messiah is to be then perhaps there is a strong justification for distancing yourself from that as power focused ruling class. A ruling class set on power over others. Also centralizing the theology under a non self sacrificial theology is highly beneficial to said ruling class
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I will definitely finish later. We r all learning 2 hehe until, I'm told I'm hurting feelings or to diverse or multimeter netsworks. 51:07
To me, the constant removal from is playing out the curse of Eve. In Genesis 3:16 “thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” This feels less like God giving dominion of the husband over the wife and more saying now woman will be subject to the nature of man which is to seek power and dominion. Everything in the gospel is a similitude of our Heavenly Family to point us home. God is trying to teach us to be like Him, which would include the power of dominion over the universe (co-dominion with God through priesthood) and the power of creation. On earth, and I believe to drive us together as a pairing in the way God the Father and God the Mother are paired, each gender is given 1 of the 2 roles so that together we can work towards being as God with both. Men are given the power of the priesthood and women are given the power of creation, 2 halves to a whole. The pride of man wants the power and to seem all in one as God already is, rather than working through our pairing of halves to get there. If there is a Heavenly Mother, you have to admit to halves to a whole and that man is equal to woman. By removing Her, you remove the equivalence as woman to man and give men the upper hand, fulfilling Eve’s curse of the husband ruling over her. It is our job to understand the equal importance of both roles and cleave into our spouse and become one flesh, becoming a pair that has both, in similitude of the Parents we are trying to become like.
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When you attend, and it's suddenly foreign, I stayed to say something. A Kay step, when my firm of $ wasn't welcomed or received as a tithe/officer ingredient.
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That last part of the conversation… maybe the Deuteronomists viewed women as our society at large does today? As either objects or as non existent. As an object, it would motivate to remove as any kind of deity, or, as non existent. It could be that these claiming to profess the truth were into some pretty bad acts etc. I don’t know just a thought going along with Dave on the way Isaiah views the removal of the tree. Very cool, felt the spirit pretty strong. I also feel very inadequate in my Isaiah understanding, and hope as long as I am trying the Lord will be merciful in my ignorance.
The First Menorah had 7 Candles, I always felt that was the 7 Women. But 7 is also the number of completion in Jewish Numerology, so it could be coincidental, but I doubt it personally.
Our divinely inspired constitution is in danger in this same manner; where people are now taking sweet for bitter, and calling evil good and good evil. We are in the same danger Israel faced with Hezekiah 's followers taking the Menorah out of the temple.
Could there be a sort of neo-deuteronomist connection with the Islamic surah Al-an”am?
He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion [i.e., wife] and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. ([6] Al-An'am : 101)
Eliminate the family by denying the mother?
I had a Jewish guy who hadn’t heard to the BOM tell me this. I found it interesting as it was Lehi who have the tree of life vision.
לי-חי
לי To me/for me -(Lee)
חי Alive/living -(Hai)
Together it can be translated as life to me or exists to me
I've never counted before, but you said it says to grasp the Word (Christ) 4 times! 🤯 Talk about being careful what you say and speaking in code. Those who know...
Jacob was clearly talking about the Brass plates
Your question about why men keep trying to eliminate the idea of a godly family makes me wonder about Satan himself. Why is he pushing that idea so hard? He must have some sort of a grudge against Heavenly Mother, I would think. Also, if you get rid of the idea of heavenly families, you get rid of the idea that we can all become like our Father some day. If you erase our potential, you erase our motivation. That's what I think, anyway...
If you’re asking THAT question, then may I recommend Stick of Joseph’s interview with Margaret Barker on the destruction of Heavenly Mother by the Deuteronomists? (She’s a Methodist 😁
But that conversation has strong legs to stand on its own.
@@matthewglosenger3180 already saw it 😜
Someone said the type of attention you pay governs what you find. And that attention is a moral act. How some folks who are familiar with Josiah and don’t see the strong setting the BOM finds itself in is beyond me
The attitude of the members aren’t seeing the power of God, if they think Joseph copied the masons. The temple (gospel was restored by God through Joseph Smith, it had been and He was restoring it back to its true version using that which was left on the earth and used by those who know not what they had and thus adulterated it for evil purposes. Adam received the fullness of the gospel but even Cain took holy knowledge and adulterated thus giving an unholy sacrifice. Each book of scripture speaks of the endowment of the temple, ie, the sermon on the mount or the olive grove of the book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon.
Great and spacious building is the second room. And Christ had to condescend to ascend so must we. I will be studying the words of King Abindi. When he was brought to the thrown of the king Noah, with the endowment of the temple in mind.
These signs shall follow believers ... they shall pick up snakes 🐍, the Nehushtan, our high priest, the King of Kings, Jesus Christ, our Saviour to direct others to look toward him with faith and a contrite heart, for salvation and eternal life.
Greg and Dave. Israel wasn't supposed to have kings. Any ideas on how this all looked before the time of Saul? Back in the time of the patriarchs.
Any research on this?
They kind of had prophet kings though. Joseph, Moses, and Joshua.
Many religions and philosophies worship a similar, single spiritual entity. It's remarkable, if you think about it, that it is a really good description of our elder brother, Lucifer, the devil. Get humankind to worship him. Something to think about.
Lucifer was our brother, but he was cast out of Heaven and the family of God and became Satan. He was disinherited or disowned and is no longer a brother.
David…. Have you figured out why Nephi prefaced his fathered vision with talk about gathering seeds. Ch8:1? It seams so out of place.
Isaiah is a coherent bifid structure. Incredibly unlikely to have been written by more than one guy. Talk to Gileadi.
I lean toward this.
careful of words now because they , the words , have been corrupted?
The reason they are so bent on removing everything is because they have a monotheistic civilizational strategy that centralizes authority to command a nation/nations. Whereas those who believe in the family of God have a polytheistic or at minimum henotheist theology that allows for cooperation and reciprocity and obedience to common, concurrent natural law which produces settlement of disputes. What's ironic is their strategy is a cognitively feminine one and the polytheistic strategy is the cognitively masculine one, this is counter intuitive I understand but I'll explain even though it will be hard to do so in this formate.
Women, when in an unhealthy cognitive state, are hyper consumptive, hypergamous, and fierce saboteurs that engage in undermining (gossiping, rallying, ridiculing, shaming, moralizing, psychologizing, reputation destruction, and escalation to doxxing, petty litigation, rolling accusations, etc. in order to secure resources for themselves and their offspring while excluding other women access to such. when this is scaled up to a civilization you get all of this amplified (just think of our current elites and their use of social media, mainstream media, department of education and academia more broadly, etc). this is the feminine means of coercion when undomesticated via legal prohibition due to its antisocial nature and the large costs it imposes. they view the mother Goddess in her proper context as a threat to their ability to extract resources from the commons.
The masculine means of coercion is what you would expect, physical violence. the have domesticated the masculine means of coercion with things like prohibitions on dueling, Westphalia agreement, Geneva convention, etc. we have not went through the process of domesticating the feminine means in the same way. this is also why Jews, get pointed out so often as a problem, because they are in fact coming from that civilizational strategy and it is only a subset that do not and those who are euro/anglocentric tend to be more polytheistic in their norms and traditions even when not so in their theology with only a subset that lean into the feminine cognition.
I understand this will likely be controversial and I haven't done a great job explaining due to the formate here so if you have any questions as to what I mean please ask.
Being careful about what they say, as in the time of Lehi, in a way a "type" of how our free speech is threatened today. Interesting
The Deuteronomy literally made our Father in Heaven a God who had no body parts or passions. Excepts for the passions it really sounds like Satan. So who did they really create or worship?