Ring of Nestor and Our Paradise Lost | Ancient Greece Revisited
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- Опубліковано 17 січ 2022
- This is the story of Nestor's ring. It might not have been as powerful as Tolkien's, but enough to hold within it, the promise that once, our ancestors shared an experience of life that made the world into an earthly paradise. An experience that was lost when the world of the Bronze Age with its Great Mother Goddess was invaded by the warrior tribes of the Indo-Europeans and Semites. Many have cast doubts on the ring's authenticity, yet, it cannot be denied that its symbols are universal, and that our longing is ever increasing for a return to that world it depicts. Into our paradise lost.
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Writer and Presenter - Michalis Michailidis
Director/Cinematographer/Editor - Adam Petritsis
Music - Penny Biniari
Thank you very much for opening minds. Your content should be in classrooms, in order to be debated. Και για να είμαι ξεκάθαρος, αν ήταν στο χέρι μου, θα ανάγκαζα το Υπουργείο Παιδείας να υιοθετήσει το περιεχόμενο σας. Ασχέτως με το αν συμφωνώ ή διαφωνώ τέτοια θεματολογία είναι απαραίτητη για τα μυαλά των νέων ανθρώπων. Δεν θα παραλείψω να συνδράμω και οικονομικά μόλις διαθέτω την δυνατότητα! Ξανά ένα τεράστιο ευχαριστώ.
Σίγουρα ένα από τα ωραιότερα σχόλια που έχουμε λάβει ποτέ. Μάλιστα, μου άρεσε ιδιαίτερα το "ασχέτως με το αν συμφωνώ ή διαφωνώ." Αυτό είναι ίσως και το πιο σωστό, γιατί τα θέματα που πιάνουμε είναι τεράστια, και σε καμία περίπτωση δεν ισχυριζόμαστε ότι κατέχουμε όλη τους την αλήθεια. Αυτό που κάνουμε είναι μια προσέγγιση και μια πρόσκληση για περισσότερους ανθρώπους να συνδυάσουν τις ικανότητες τους προς κάτι μεγαλύτερο. Όσο για το Υπουργείο Παιδείας, δεν ξέρω κατά πόσο το περιεχόμενο μας θα πληρούσε τα αυστηρά ακαδημαϊκά τους κριτήρια, όμως ας ευχηθούμε ότι αυτή μας η δουλειά θα πέσει στο "χέρι" - όπως είπες = αυτών που θα μπορούσαν να παρέμβουν με αυτόν το τρόπο ...
Ευχαριστούμε και καλώς ήρθες στο κανάλι μας.
ΦΙΛΕ ΜΙΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΣΟΥ ΑΡΕΣΟΥΝ ΟΙ ΣΙΜΙΤΙΚΕΣ ΘΕΩΡΙΕΣ , ΔΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΜΙΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΚΑΙ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΝΑ ΑΝΑΓΚΑΖΕΣ ΤΟ Υ,Π . ΨΑΞΕ UA-cam ΑΝΟΙΧΤΗ ΑΚΑΔΗΜΙΑ ΜΙΝΩΙΚΩΝ ΜΕΛΕΤΩΝ . ΧΑΙΡΕΤΩ
🤯mind blown again! This was awesome thank you 🙏 looking forward to more
The lesson I suppose, is that religious and mythological themes repeat and borrow from each other through time. As to the dominant theme of the sacred feminine vs. the masculine warrior, once population density achieves a critical mass enabling the development and specialization of cities, the technology of the forge and martial power becomes essential for survival. Masculine prowess is what drives the development of the great civilizations.
They repeat and they borrow, but they also invert. THAT was the "lesson" if you will. It boggles me how people are so passionate about some kind of "philosophia perennis," whereby all religions just have to have the exact same meanings, if you look deep enough. That would be - for starters - pretty boring, and secondly it would be turning a deaf ear to what THEY, the religions themselves are actually telling you. It's a pretty fanatical approach that has been increasingly on the rise. The snake in the garden of Even is NOT the same as in the garden of Paradise of Summer and Babylon. It's an "inverted" snake, where the positive has been turned negative, and it's fascinating to theorise as to the "why."
As for the population density approach, I am not so certain. The Minoans had large cities with specialised professions, yet, their religion seems to have had a feminine tone. I don't agree with deterministic theories on human culture, as it is human culture that determines the meanings of the material world.
Apart from that, thank you for the great comment!
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Successful and enduring civilizations built walls around their cities for a reason. It appears to me that as soon as a civilization develops to a certain point it either is conquered or becomes a conqueror. The development of weaponry and martial strategies parallel the development of civilization. Isolation can result in stability only for a little while.
another insightful episode.
Thank you! :-) ❤️
Ευχαριστώ για την τροφή που απλόχερα μου χαρίζετε..
Love this channel!
❤
Excellent! very inspiring.
Thank you!
Wonderful content
Thank you!
Great content! 🚀🚀✅✅
Appreciate it!
Συγχαρητήρια.
Ευχαριστούμε!
How do we know Minoan civilization's values were "life-affirming" in your view? Do we have sources that tell us of their religious beliefs?
Also in the end when you talk about the Buddha reinverting its life-denial through sitting under the Bodhi tree, don't forget that the cross of Jesus Christ (being fashioned out of wood obviously from a tree) is also the archetype of the Tree of Life, whereby we reenter the Kingdom of God.
It even says so in Scripture:
Acts 13:29: “And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.”
We don't. But just like we said in the episode, it's by comparing Minoans with cultures synchronous to them which DO have writings. Like the Sumerian and Babylonian examples in the video, that are accompanied by scriptures detailing the creation of the world..
Man. I love your content so much. You need to do a collaboration with Toldinstone.
I will follow up on him ...
@@AncientGreeceRevisited I posted a note on his channel last night. His viewer base surged in the last year from around 15k to over 200k subscribers. UA-cam can be a lottery. He lucked into the right algorithm and your channel is a great complementary channel.
PS - With lockdown in Tokyo, I’m working as a digital nomad. I’m sitting in Split in front of Diocletian’s Palace. Covid has a silver lining!
@@dyinggaul8365 Thank you for the suggestion. That is exactly what we're hoping for, hitting the right algorithm the right way. I will send him an email. In the meantime, whatever you can do to spread the word would be helpful.
❤🧡💚💙
Please, I am not sure, but I couldn't catch who called it The ring of Nestor. Is it a hint to the Homeric old and saviour Knight Nestor from Pylos?
Yes, it was Arthur Evans who named it so. using the myth that you mentioned.
In this case, I will search for this myth I ignore. Thank you so much.
I tried to find the answer to the following question: why did Evans choose Nestor as the name for the ring? The answer could be the following: in the Nestor's Palace in Pylos archaeologists found some golden rings, one in particular, which resemble the one you talked about. It demonstrates the existence of the relationship between Pylos and Crete. In fact, Nestor was the hero always present in the embassy Agamemnon sent around the Aegean Sea. More, the Ring of Nestor is a seal, a means used to certify the authenticity of something, vases, tablets, objects but also the memory of the existence of civilization disappeared, and so the dignity of the person who wore it, dignity intended as the one whose word was complete and full of truthful meaning. Thank you for being so inspiring. Best.
@@alessandrazacco1806 Yes, there was back then a tendency to conflate Homeric heroes with relics from the Mycenaean and Minoan period. The mask that was found in the royal tomb at Mycenaean was called "Agamemnon's Mask" for the same reason. As to whether these were the "same" Greeks who fought against Troy is another story, but suffice to say that I do not agree. I think what is happening is that people are becoming "geekier" and "geekier", losing "the forest for the trees" as we say. So when it comes to archeology, they only look at material evidence because that is what the "geek mind" accepts as real. But if one looks beyond their nose they will understand that poetry has its own dynamic. Poetry forms like a crystal, taking shape over a period in history. As it does, it "captures" a piece of the world that gave it birth, because that was the inevitable subject just as it was forming. The Homeric verse is a form that developed somewhere in the rightfully called "Homeric Age", the "Dark Ages of Greece", ie the 10th to 8th century. The subject matter, ie the war against Troy, is a fragment of that world that was inevitably dragged along with this wonderful form. The events therefore are NOT Mycenaean, but "Dark Age" type.
It started out awful with your psychoanalysis of the guy, who is in any case not right in the way presented here, but it wasn't that bad overall. Samsara is not a Buddhist idea. Minoans worshiped the bull, the same bull that Zeus turned into when kidnapping Europa from Phoenicia, the same bull that Dionysos turns into, that Shiva rides on, that was known to the Egyptians as Apis, and what is even mentioned in the Bible as the "golden (solar) calf". There is no space for a matriarchal culture, which is a feminist fabrication in any case, because such societies are completely dysfunctional and contrary to nature itself. Worshiping Goddesses does not imply matriarchy, not even PRIMARILY worshiping Goddesses implies matriarchy, as can be seen in Shaivism (nowadays by this exact separatist misguided interpretation sometimes considered "Shaktism" where they put the Goddess above Shiva himself, who is supposed to be Her husband, yet this position is completely unsupported by the Vedas or any serious master). And in any case, it is always the divine couple that is worshiped, the female corresponding to the elevating, immanent principle, which gets mistaken as feminism and all these modern contrived ideas. Ancient Crete likely had a religion very similar to "Shaktism" (in the original form/idea of "Shaktism", not degraded by speculators, wishful thinkers, liberals and feminists).
Going back to Samsara, nobody ever wanted eternal rebirth in this world and you're confused about the whole meaning of this, yet you keep talking about it, and in this most objectionable method and tone, no doubt because you're a journalist. Half of these videos wouldn't be half as bad if it were not for the typical "big brain, interest grabbing" journalistic presentation of the arguments. Going back to Samsara, if you'd have read Platon, you'd know that he already discusses eternal life with a woman who believes she will live eternally in her children, which is just as delusional as this idea presented here.
Man always wants to overcome all boundaries, satisfy all desires eternally, break through all limits -- all these are inherent imprints of the soul remembering its higher, spiritual state. Every desire arising is reminder of worldly shortcoming and yearning for being eternal and infinite. Eternal rebirth here may sound like a blessing only to the most naive and unphilosophical.
Preach. I’m disappointed in this video. They should apologize for pushing anti pagan propaganda and awful interpretations of myth!
@Logistikon Σωτήρ As you mentioned me personally I thought that a reply from my personal account was in order.
For starters, I did not create or endorse these psychoanalytic approaches, I just mentioned them. And I mentioned them because they are simply there, present in Evan’s critics arsenal. As you can see from my time, to which you seem to have paid a lot of attention, I dislike those criticisms as I consider them to be “cheap psychoanalyzing.” I thought that was obvious from the way in which I mentioned them and from the way I finish this episode.
Second, when you say “it was the same bull,” what exactly does that mean. Is it like saying John Lennon and the lead singer of the band “The Beatles” are the same? Is it like saying that Clark Kent and Superman are the same? Because surely there is a difference. The fact that a divine bull is mentioned, and that a historical connection can be drawn does not make two figures of mythology the same. Because these figures are not people to be identified in flesh and bone, but symbols, and as such their identity is in relation with what they signify. The sacred bull of Crete symbolized something different to the Minotaur. The one was a god, the other a monster. The death of the first was a willful sacrifice that renewed the earth’s fertility, while the second’s a heroic act that released the kingdoms from a curse. Between the two, a changed in the religious outlook MUST have happened to account for these differences. And it’s our task to observe these subtle yet important differences rather than leveling everything down based on external similarities.
Now, on to Samsara. I never said it was a Buddhist doctrine, but only that it acquired a new meaning around the time of the Buddha. Again, we must be subtle about it and not leveling bulldozers. Notice how the Minotaur is a product of a “bestial act,” the sexual union of the Queen together with a bull. That brought down a curse, which means that this act was somehow blasphemous, so how bad. But it wasn’t necessarily so for the ancient Cretans, whose priestess - at least according to Leo Frobenius - might have ceremonial married a bull in an act of “hierogamy.” What for the Cretans was good, became bad, a prison out of which one had to escape. All I said about Samsara was that something similar might have happened in India, where a complete acceptance of the “ever recurring circle of life and death” was seen as a prison from which the Buddha had to escape.
As for my journalistic tone, well, I am no journalist if that makes any difference. I just read out my own writing which may have given my delivery a “journalistic” style.
@@parchment543 How is this anti-pagan exactly? I am curious as to your reasoning...
@@mmick66 I became aware of your evaluation of psychoanalysis by the end of the video, hence I wrote: "it wasn't bad overall". The mentioned bulls are the same in that they connect to the same God in various ways, namely to Apollon-Dionysos (who are certainly two aspects of the same supreme being, mentioned also by Macrobius and Pausanias and identifiable through symbolic/esoteric analysis), who is none other than the Vedic Shiva/Rudra (who is known from the Vedas, Agamas and Puranas also as supreme). The Shiva/Rudra/(Bhairava) type can be traced all throughout Aryan and even non-Aryan religions; it is quite a world-wide phenomenon (maybe with the exception of Sub-Saharan Africa, I don't know about that place).
Regarding Samsara, the statement was to the effect of the Buddha being dissatisfied with eternal rebirth in these vegetative naturalistic circumstances and then started to seek liberation. You pose this transcendental idea as a "problem" or as an opposition to the "natural vegetative way" of the surrounding Vedic society, neither of which are true in any sense. Transcending the material world is the core purpose of every single religion imaginable, and what makes then a religion; we might refer to anything else as a "foolish hobby", since they (should) know that they will die. The Buddha did not go against Vedic Traditions, he did not invent non-Vedic ideas, he did not see the world any differently than any Vedic ascetic or renunciate would. There is nothing strange about him whatsoever, other than the method he proposed to reach that same goal that every Vedic spiritual practitioner was already seeking. There is no break in mood or atmosphere, and in fact the Buddhists themselves, other than crypto-atheistic "Western Buddhists", see the world full of Gods, spirits, and other immaterial beings -- simply they just do not believe they can help them achieve liberation (though even this becomes somewhat untrue with Tantrik Buddhism, however that has major influences from India).
Regarding the journalistic style, it may just be that I am alone bothered, so forget about it. If you find that this delivery engages people, do not be bothered by me bringing it up. I just simply find it to be exactly in the style how some "informative article" in some major Western news site would be written, with all its tactics to try and engage/incite the interest of the reader.
@@logistikon5814 The informative style is what I'm going after. Playing the game of the mainstream in topics that are far from mainstream. I appreciate you turning this criticism into a personal one.
Now, as for the rest, you touched many different topics that are impossible to go in full depth. But some words are in order:
As for the Buddha going "against" the Vedic tradition. He did, in his own biography. In the Vedic tradition, Siddhartha should not have left the earthly kingdom of his father at such a young age, and before having children himself who would be capable of taking over his duties as king. In fact, it would be preferable if he even waited a few lifetimes more to become incarnate as a Brahmin, at the end of whose life, he would have gone into the forest and archived release. But the Buddha wanted to achieve it right then and there, like there was some urgency that was simply not there before. So... something must have happened to account for this change. Our video is just an approach to what that "something" might have been.
What we tried to show is that not ALL religions are about release, but only those see the world in a certain way. If nature is.God incarnate, why try to escape from it? If nature, on the other hand, and the material world in total, is a "secondary copy" or even a "decadent copy" of the divine state, then yes, you DO want to escape it. A theory that we tried to expand on - and like I said, it's only a theory - is that once, the sense of divinity was identified in nature to such an extend, there was no need for an escape.
Lastly, as to the bull of Dionysus. Yes, the symbols you mentioned are there, and connections are in fact drawn in one of our videos: ua-cam.com/video/c7A3KqNLOSc/v-deo.html. What I am inviting you however is to notice the differences along with the similarities. Why did Dionysus never became a true immortal? Never had his place in Olympus? Why did he remain a "dying god." Once, a figure like Dionysus might have stood in the center of existence itself, but once the Olympian faith conquered, he became a "minor deity." Remember that in the Iliad he never appears, but is only mentioned once: as a deity persecuted by a man no less! So, in mythology, we must ask the same questions we do in literature and poetry. Is the "Joker" portrayed in Todd Phillips' film "the same" as the one in the original comics? You can always say yes, of course! But that would be missing the tone in which this character is presented, differences relating to different cultural shifts. So, again, is it "the same bull", both yes and no have their merit and its a composite of these images that can give us a better approach to the subjects at hand.
theres a snake guarding a tree in the argonautica
Of which we made an entire 4-episode series. Check it out on this channel.
cool thanks! @@AncientGreeceRevisited
Read _The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind_ by Julian Jaynes.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Neither Nestor or Odysseus were from Crete, dope. I call con-crete
Couldn't watch after the first minute or so .I can't take seriously anyone who mentions the made up term "indoeuropean" A term that was developed by an amateur , with zero mentions in ancient sources ,zero geological or other reasons of such a population moving , unlike the theory about Pelasgoi, which would easily along with the Hellenic Kingdoms in India explain the similarities in some linguistic roots.There are already plenty of evidence that Hellenes and travelling goes together. Homer, in the first lines of Odyssea wrote that the Hellenes learn through their travels. Indoeuropean is a theory that's completely fabricated while Pelasgoi theory at worse needs the discovery of just few extra puzzle pieces and already stands well as it is.
Taking a look at the architecture, decor, art, syllabograms,religion it's apparent that Minoans and Myceneans were brother civilizations. The archeological community/system loves denying that those two were both Hellenes. System was proven wrong about the Myceneans as they will be proven wrong about the Minoans. After all the myth of Deukalion includes Δωριείς in the Hellenes ,no such thing as an indoeuropean exists, it is just yet another civil conflict in the long history of those
Minoans weren't entirely pacifists , they had to fend off pirates and other threats. Figurines of warriors and other artifacts are proof of that.
Also Hellenic dark age is a lie as well, just because texts and lots of art didn't pass the test of time , it doesn't mean that nothing was going on and there are evidence of that too. I would like to offer more details for everything I ve mentioned but I ve already blabbered too much
Indo-Europeanism is not a made up theory, and it has huge support by notable linguists and archeologists. To say the opposite is to ignore the genetic evidence that confirmed some of the "steppe migration" theories. After all, if you have a language, you have someone who spoke it. You could call the early theorists "amateurs" like you did, but never forget that people of that ilk had a level of academic knowledge that you and I will never reach in a few lifetimes. William Jones in particular read Greek and Sanskrit, quoted the works of Homer and the Bhagavad Gitta in their original, while being a Judge in the high court and a travelled in places most of his contemporaries had never heard of. So yes, this "amateur" knew something that perhaps those who take their education from clicking links online might be missing.
As for the Pelasgians, I do not see why one contradicts the other. The Pelasgians were in Greece what the Dravidians were in India: the pre-Indo-European culture that was native to that place before the descent of these people. Nor does it contradict the fact that Hellenes were travellers. But there is a problem in what you are saying, because the Hellenes were not Pelasgians. The Greeks of Homer's time in other words show a culture similarity to all other Indo-European cultures, which the Minoans and Mycenaeans do not. Theirs was a culture that in essence if not in aspect was similar (as it was synchronous) to that of ancient Egypt: a "bureaucratic monarchy" as some have called it that was very different to the world described by Homer. In fact, the Mycenaeans not just had, but heavily relied upon writing to catalogue the grains and goods gathered and distributed by the king. In the Iliad (and apart form one and mostly obscure mention) there in no reading or writing... at all!
Let's not confuse ourselves. There is a stark difference between Mycenaean, Minoan and Classical Greeks. I understand that this is a bigger subject that we can do justice, but being fanatical will definitely not help.
Thank you for you comment and glad to have you on board.