I read a recent article in a gun magazine that's states auto loading pistol brass shortens with use. The. Author set out to determine how many times you could reload auto brass, he inspected and measured after each reload. The brass shortens between the body and rim, you could easily see it in the pictures.
I started trimming my 45 ACP brass not to adjust the length, but to create a machined surface that would make better contact with the end of the chamber when fired, but I found that trimming doesn't change that much. For both trimmed and untrimmed cases, the biggest difference is less than .002--measuring with my drop indicator. To clarify a little more, I'm talking about the mouth of the case being perpendicular to the sides of the case. I'm actually happy about this, because I really hate trimming cases. Does anyone have any input on this?
Some lots are short, I've noticed that. I've never bought star line brass, but it would be interesting to measure. .45 acp headspace on the mouth of the cartridge so uniform length is important for a consistent Taper crimp. Most revolvers headspace on the rim and get a roll crimp. Bottle neck cartridges are a whole new ball game when it comes to headspace, shoulder, rim, and variations in the way the individual barrel was renamed. Pandora box all over again.
Great video. I reload a lot. By a lot I mean thousands of rifle and pistol loads a year. I have 5 gallon buckets full of 45 Auto brass. Some are very new and some are very old. I have Rem, Win, Federal, GFL, Fiochi, and many others. some old F A 14 headstamps R A 17, WCC 17. Over a hundred years old. Some from 1916 etc. I’ve never trimmed one of them or any other straight wall pistol case.
How does trimming .308 Winchester affect the bullet? I see that in the hodgdon reloading website it asks for a trim length of 2.004 but when I look at the schematic of the case it reads 2.015. I know there's a minimum and maximum length but does that have any affect regarding neck tension and crimping? I'm reloading for an AR-10 style rifle. Thanks FortuneCookie.
fc45lc - Did you measure the length of the cases after sizing? I'm just preparing to load my first ever 45ACP. I measured some 65 (once fired) cases prior to sizing, just for kicks. 40 of the 60 ran in the .890" - .891". However I had 2 that were .886" & .888". I sized those 2, and they both increased in length to .890" & .891". So, my question is, shouldn't we size them, them check length, to determine whether they need trimming? :-)
L Krueger - Yes, determination of need to trim is done after sizing. Your brass is still under the max OAL of .898". The brass used in this video have been reloaded multiple times, some since the 60s, without ever exceeding max OAL. Our straight sided handgun brass simply do not lengthen to exceed max OAL before or after sizing. I have encountered one renegade 357 expanding die that was so tight, cases did stretch a bit after sizing though, but turning that expander down .001" fixed that. Rifle bottleneck cases do stretch on firing and also on sizing however, so we always need to check them after sizing. And rifle cases over the max OAL is commonly encountered. If so, we need to trim to the trim to length according to the manuals. The manuals say to trim if max OAL is exceeded, but any reloader is free to trim pistol brass to the trim to length anyway in the belief that uniform crimping is worth the effort. I certainly would never tell anyone to trim their handgun brass because no one I know trims their regular straight wall handgun brass. I recently got standard deviations of reloads using range brass in the single digits without trimming. Good reloadin' to ya, FC
Here is the issue, your brass needs to be consistent for crimping reasons. Brass that is shorter won't get much or any crimp. Brass that is longer will be over crimped causing more pressure when fired. I took my shortest case and sized them all within .02 and my group's tightened up considerably
I have some cases with the dash marks around the side of the case. What are the dash marks? What are they used for? Are they safe to reload? Safe for high pressures? Thanks again for the videos!
OneSimpleSolution Good question...That is excellent brass...use it with full confidence. The marks are factory cannelures usually to help prevent bullet shifting during recoil on revolvers or during feeding in semi-auto or automatic weapons. Good reloadin' to ya
Are cases that are necked down more prone to lengthening? If you think about the stresses on the brass it seems that straight walled cases won't have much tendency to stretch. It's obvious why something like a .223 would flow & get longer but I don't see a straight walled case getting much longer. It would need serious, serious pressure to make the brass flow.
shananagans5 Always great to hear from the Shaz!! The more the venturi into the smaller and smaller hole, the more the velocity of the gasses pushes on the venturi shoulder leading to case lengthening. The interesting thing is that brass stretch caused by the expander ball in rifle reloading dies is as big if not more of a problem - that's why we are told to lube the inside of the case necks on our bottleneck cases before we resize them - no need to lube the inside of case necks on our straight wall cases - the expansion of the neck there is done on the in stroke, not the out stroke that lengthens our rifle brass. That is why we are told to trim rifle cases after we resize them, not before. Have a great day!!
shananagans5 Shaz - it occurred to me that you know this stuff already. When I reply to your comments, it's because you have neatly brought up issues that can be expanded for the benefit of newer reloaders and shooters out there - thanks for your comments being "lead ins" ... Best Regards
hello I am looking to start to reload 45acp and I been collecting brass from federal and Winchester white box and I am confused if I am reading the caliper correct or have the correct caliper but the reading on the caliper on the brass y have it said .994 to the .998 is like a 1 tenth longer why and if I am reading correct but I am confused thanks
+Ferber b -- Your caliper readings should be somewhere around .888 - .898" So if you are getting .994+ readings, you might have a totally different cartridge that the 45 ACP. There is no way that standard 45 ACP brass gets to be .994-.998" Take some of your brass and your caliper to your local range the next time you go to shoot and show the readings to other pistol shooters - you'll get your answer pretty quick...Thanks for your comment, and Have a great day, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC Hello FC and I found the problem I don't know how this happen but the caliper I got was reading the brass wrong I remember and ask a friend that use to work in a machine shop and he had some spare digital calipers he had 2 mitutoyo from 2002 old ones he told me to take them and buy the batterys and keep the one that works better started to check the brass and for my surprise that the brass was in spect and I checked with both calipers and the measurements were right thanks for your help and for writing back it was very helpful FC thanks.
+Ferber b -- I'm glad you got that straightened out...good calipers are very important in what reloaders do...Have a great day, and please drop in again for other comments or questions... FC
Edward Petty - Did you one more step also - actual testing of ammo trimmed (even though the brass was not over the max OAL, they were trimmed to the trim to length) and untrimmed showed no advantage to trimming the brass. Better accuracy and lower standard deviation ammo with trimming could not be demonstrated. Have a great day, FC Steve
toy collector - That is always the best way to check for need of trimming. Measuring brass straight from the range is OK, but after resizing, the expander ball can definitely drag the case longer on the way out especially with bottleneck cases...I have a video idea on this in my cue - now that I'm talking about it, might just move that up in the cue and do it sooner. Anytime a reloader feels a lot of drag on case pull out, the possibility of case stretching is happening. Steps need to be done to guard against that as it is a very destructive event in our reloading. There should be minimum or no drag from that expander ball - lube on the inside of the case necks is done to reduce that. The Lee Neck Collet resize die produces no drag...If necessary, David Tubb used to recommend turning the expanding balls down a thousandths or so to further reduce that drag. Straight wall cartridges get very little drag. Good reloadin' to ya... FC
Cases should always be check for length after resizing. If shooting hot loads, they will stretch more than light loads. You will eventually have to trim your cases. Cases will stretch, I don't care what anybody says.
Edward James - The max OAL of 45 ACP brass is .898" What this means is that as long as your brass does not exceed .898", no trimming is needed. But if any are longer, that batch of brass should be trimmed to the trim to length of .888". Your brass is on the short side at .883 and very short at .880. The 1911 firing pin will still set off the rounds, but other guns might have misfires from firing pin cushioning effects from the excessive headspace. Otherwise, the rounds are still safe to shoot. Best is not to trim shorter than .888" in the future. I have never trimmed any straight sided handgun brass as they never get too long to be problematic. Have a great day, FC Steve
Amazing !! Cases from the 60's and 70's. How on earth do you know the age of these cases? (showing my ignorance) Are there markings on the cases, but how could that be ? You might have an obscure guiness record going for "aged" brass cases stored.
Walter Palmer - When I first began reloading, it was the 38 Spl for my father's revolver. But my first handgun was a Colt Series 70 1911 45 ACP. I started reloading and casting for that gun. In the early 1970s, I visited the gun store often, and every time I did, I would buy fired 45 ACP out of bins - just open up a paper bag and choose what you wanted to buy - 2 cents a case for military and 3 cents for commercial brass. I'd buy a couple hundred every trip to the store. That brass had RA and TZZ headstamps - I haven't bought any of those since, but those keep turning up in my reloading on a routine basis. Hard to say how many times they've been reloaded. Some necks split every so often, but I have a lot of that brass. Have a great day, FC
Did you even resize them yet? A case will always be short until you resize it. They all have dead primers so they haven't been resized. all this is invalid.imo
I don't and never have trimmed my pistol brass. Yeah if anything they will just get shorter and shorter by using them. Then you use a brass length extender to stretch them. lol that last bit is a joke
Another great vid! I found a RA case in my lot from 1932!!! never know what you will find out there. I think TZZ is Israeli, whats the deal with the cannaluer on the outside of pistol cases? I see that on 45,38,357,44, wonder what kind of die does that outside cannaluer.
AK Janitor The cannelure was used either or also on the side of the bullet to act as an internal crimp to keep revolver bullets from shifting forward or at the base of the bullet to act as a stop in auto pistol rounds to keep bullet from setting back. A cheaper version of the cannelure is the "spike" crimp - a dent punched into the side of the case to help hold the bullet. There was a time many years ago that a die was available to roll our own cannelures, but no one bought it. I think you are right about the TZZ...RA from 1932 is just before the Army accepted the M1 Garand rifle... Best Regards, and thanks for the great comment.
as someone thst personslly looks at EVERY headstamp of brass ive not bought, I can say you are doing gods work. this can be a trying task. cheers.
I read a recent article in a gun magazine that's states auto loading pistol brass shortens with use. The. Author set out to determine how many times you could reload auto brass, he inspected and measured after each reload. The brass shortens between the body and rim, you could easily see it in the pictures.
I started trimming my 45 ACP brass not to adjust the length, but to create a machined surface that would make better contact with the end of the chamber when fired, but I found that trimming doesn't change that much. For both trimmed and untrimmed cases, the biggest difference is less than .002--measuring with my drop indicator. To clarify a little more, I'm talking about the mouth of the case being perpendicular to the sides of the case. I'm actually happy about this, because I really hate trimming cases. Does anyone have any input on this?
Well presented case(s) study(ies). Thanks. I am learning soo much my head hurts!!!!
Some lots are short, I've noticed that.
I've never bought star line brass, but it would be interesting to measure.
.45 acp headspace on the mouth of the cartridge so uniform length is important for a consistent Taper crimp.
Most revolvers headspace on the rim and get a roll crimp.
Bottle neck cartridges are a whole new ball game when it comes to headspace, shoulder, rim, and variations in the way the individual barrel was renamed.
Pandora box all over again.
Great video. I reload a lot. By a lot I mean thousands of rifle and pistol loads a year. I have 5 gallon buckets full of 45 Auto brass. Some are very new and some are very old. I have Rem, Win, Federal, GFL, Fiochi, and many others. some old F A 14 headstamps R A 17, WCC 17. Over a hundred years old. Some from 1916 etc. I’ve never trimmed one of them or any other straight wall pistol case.
The first time the camera refocused, I thought it was a squirrel barking in the background.
Thank you. I am new to reloading and this helped.👍
traxxastrucks36 - And thanks for posting comment...Good reloadin' to ya, FC Steve
FortuneCookie45LC I have a ton of mixed 45acp’s that are ALL measuring out at 0.87
Are these ok to shoot out of a 1911 or are they too short?
Thanks
How does trimming .308 Winchester affect the bullet? I see that in the hodgdon reloading website it asks for a trim length of 2.004 but when I look at the schematic of the case it reads 2.015. I know there's a minimum and maximum length but does that have any affect regarding neck tension and crimping? I'm reloading for an AR-10 style rifle. Thanks FortuneCookie.
fc45lc - Did you measure the length of the cases after sizing?
I'm just preparing to load my first ever 45ACP. I measured some 65 (once fired) cases prior to sizing, just for kicks. 40 of the 60 ran in the .890" - .891". However I had 2 that were .886" & .888". I sized those 2, and they both increased in length to .890" & .891". So, my question is, shouldn't we size them, them check length, to determine whether they need trimming? :-)
L Krueger - Yes, determination of need to trim is done after sizing. Your brass is still under the max OAL of .898". The brass used in this video have been reloaded multiple times, some since the 60s, without ever exceeding max OAL. Our straight sided handgun brass simply do not lengthen to exceed max OAL before or after sizing. I have encountered one renegade 357 expanding die that was so tight, cases did stretch a bit after sizing though, but turning that expander down .001" fixed that. Rifle bottleneck cases do stretch on firing and also on sizing however, so we always need to check them after sizing. And rifle cases over the max OAL is commonly encountered. If so, we need to trim to the trim to length according to the manuals. The manuals say to trim if max OAL is exceeded, but any reloader is free to trim pistol brass to the trim to length anyway in the belief that uniform crimping is worth the effort. I certainly would never tell anyone to trim their handgun brass because no one I know trims their regular straight wall handgun brass. I recently got standard deviations of reloads using range brass in the single digits without trimming. Good reloadin' to ya, FC
thanks
Here is the issue, your brass needs to be consistent for crimping reasons. Brass that is shorter won't get much or any crimp. Brass that is longer will be over crimped causing more pressure when fired. I took my shortest case and sized them all within .02 and my group's tightened up considerably
I have some cases with the dash marks around the side of the case. What are the dash marks? What are they used for? Are they safe to reload? Safe for high pressures? Thanks again for the videos!
OneSimpleSolution Good question...That is excellent brass...use it with full confidence. The marks are factory cannelures usually to help prevent bullet shifting during recoil on revolvers or during feeding in semi-auto or automatic weapons. Good reloadin' to ya
Thanks for the response, I'll load some up tonight!
Are cases that are necked down more prone to lengthening? If you think about the stresses on the brass it seems that straight walled cases won't have much tendency to stretch.
It's obvious why something like a .223 would flow & get longer but I don't see a straight walled case getting much longer. It would need serious, serious pressure to make the brass flow.
shananagans5 Always great to hear from the Shaz!! The more the venturi into the smaller and smaller hole, the more the velocity of the gasses pushes on the venturi shoulder leading to case lengthening. The interesting thing is that brass stretch caused by the expander ball in rifle reloading dies is as big if not more of a problem - that's why we are told to lube the inside of the case necks on our bottleneck cases before we resize them - no need to lube the inside of case necks on our straight wall cases - the expansion of the neck there is done on the in stroke, not the out stroke that lengthens our rifle brass. That is why we are told to trim rifle cases after we resize them, not before. Have a great day!!
shananagans5 Shaz - it occurred to me that you know this stuff already. When I reply to your comments, it's because you have neatly brought up issues that can be expanded for the benefit of newer reloaders and shooters out there - thanks for your comments being "lead ins" ... Best Regards
Good info. Thanks.
So what happens s to the brass casings that are to short .Do just throw them in a bucket to be recycled?
hello I am looking to start to reload 45acp and I been collecting brass from federal and Winchester white box and I am confused if I am reading the caliper correct or have the correct caliper but the reading on the caliper on the brass y have it said .994 to the .998 is like a 1 tenth longer why and if I am reading correct but I am confused thanks
+Ferber b -- Your caliper readings should be somewhere around .888 - .898" So if you are getting .994+ readings, you might have a totally different cartridge that the 45 ACP. There is no way that standard 45 ACP brass gets to be .994-.998" Take some of your brass and your caliper to your local range the next time you go to shoot and show the readings to other pistol shooters - you'll get your answer pretty quick...Thanks for your comment, and Have a great day, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC Hello FC and I found the problem I don't know how this happen but the caliper I got was reading the brass wrong I remember and ask a friend that use to work in a machine shop and he had some spare digital calipers he had 2 mitutoyo from 2002 old ones he told me to take them and buy the batterys and keep the one that works better started to check the brass and for my surprise that the brass was in spect and I checked with both calipers and the measurements were right thanks for your help and for writing back it was very helpful FC thanks.
+Ferber b -- I'm glad you got that straightened out...good calipers are very important in what reloaders do...Have a great day, and please drop in again for other comments or questions... FC
Thank you Fortune Cookie45LC. This is a question I always wondered about. I usually don't trim handgun brass.
Edward Petty - Did you one more step also - actual testing of ammo trimmed (even though the brass was not over the max OAL, they were trimmed to the trim to length) and untrimmed showed no advantage to trimming the brass. Better accuracy and lower standard deviation ammo with trimming could not be demonstrated. Have a great day, FC Steve
Should the case length be measured after its resized to see if that lengthens the case?
toy collector - That is always the best way to check for need of trimming. Measuring brass straight from the range is OK, but after resizing, the expander ball can definitely drag the case longer on the way out especially with bottleneck cases...I have a video idea on this in my cue - now that I'm talking about it, might just move that up in the cue and do it sooner. Anytime a reloader feels a lot of drag on case pull out, the possibility of case stretching is happening. Steps need to be done to guard against that as it is a very destructive event in our reloading. There should be minimum or no drag from that expander ball - lube on the inside of the case necks is done to reduce that. The Lee Neck Collet resize die produces no drag...If necessary, David Tubb used to recommend turning the expanding balls down a thousandths or so to further reduce that drag. Straight wall cartridges get very little drag. Good reloadin' to ya... FC
Cases should always be check for length after resizing. If shooting hot loads, they will stretch more than light loads. You will eventually have to trim your cases. Cases will stretch, I don't care what anybody says.
I don't worry about case length, just overall cartridge length. Roast me!
Hi FC500....... would this be the same for 357/38special? Thank you.
I trimmed my 45 acp with the lee trimmer it measures .880-.883 is that safe?
Edward James - The max OAL of 45 ACP brass is .898" What this means is that as long as your brass does not exceed .898", no trimming is needed. But if any are longer, that batch of brass should be trimmed to the trim to length of .888". Your brass is on the short side at .883 and very short at .880. The 1911 firing pin will still set off the rounds, but other guns might have misfires from firing pin cushioning effects from the excessive headspace. Otherwise, the rounds are still safe to shoot. Best is not to trim shorter than .888" in the future. I have never trimmed any straight sided handgun brass as they never get too long to be problematic. Have a great day, FC Steve
I count my ammo by how many primers I have.
If I recall correctly 0.888 is min and 0.898 is max.
Amazing !! Cases from the 60's and 70's. How on earth do you know the age of these cases? (showing my ignorance) Are there markings on the cases, but how could that be ? You might have an obscure guiness record going for "aged" brass cases stored.
Walter Palmer - When I first began reloading, it was the 38 Spl for my father's revolver. But my first handgun was a Colt Series 70 1911 45 ACP. I started reloading and casting for that gun. In the early 1970s, I visited the gun store often, and every time I did, I would buy fired 45 ACP out of bins - just open up a paper bag and choose what you wanted to buy - 2 cents a case for military and 3 cents for commercial brass. I'd buy a couple hundred every trip to the store. That brass had RA and TZZ headstamps - I haven't bought any of those since, but those keep turning up in my reloading on a routine basis. Hard to say how many times they've been reloaded. Some necks split every so often, but I have a lot of that brass. Have a great day, FC
Wow, thank you kindly for your replies. You're a great fellow to do so and the videos are most helpful..
Walter Palmer - Thanks for your comments...and please feel free to comment or ask questions at your discretion... Best Regards, FC
Did you even resize them yet? A case will always be short until you resize it. They all have dead primers so they haven't been resized. all this is invalid.imo
I don't and never have trimmed my pistol brass. Yeah if anything they will just get shorter and shorter by using them. Then you use a brass length extender to stretch them. lol that last bit is a joke
Shawn Tannehill Ha, ha, har...good one, Shawn Tannehill!!
Another great vid! I found a RA case in my lot from 1932!!! never know what you will find out there. I think TZZ is Israeli, whats the deal with the cannaluer on the outside of pistol cases? I see that on 45,38,357,44, wonder what kind of die does that outside cannaluer.
AK Janitor The cannelure was used either or also on the side of the bullet to act as an internal crimp to keep revolver bullets from shifting forward or at the base of the bullet to act as a stop in auto pistol rounds to keep bullet from setting back. A cheaper version of the cannelure is the "spike" crimp - a dent punched into the side of the case to help hold the bullet. There was a time many years ago that a die was available to roll our own cannelures, but no one bought it. I think you are right about the TZZ...RA from 1932 is just before the Army accepted the M1 Garand rifle... Best Regards, and thanks for the great comment.
Thanks for the reply back fortune cookie I really enjoy your videos
thanks for the tip.going to check my 9mm.
bnighter - Your 9mm should pass the muster and not need trimming easily...Best to ya, FC
TL,DR: The answer is NO
:-)