Reaction, Doctor Who, 7x05, The Angels Take Manhattan, Gallifrey Gals Get Wibbly Wobbly! S7Ep5
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- The beginning for the darkest times of the 11 Doctor. Is Paula ready for how the Ponds leave the show? Will she ever forgive Moffatt for this? This episode is very triggering, we don't take kindly to that sort of emotional manipulation. Bonus footage of an after episode scene P.S. available on Patreon.
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PAULA DEMING
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KATRINA ALYSHA
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I think Amy/Rory had a great end. They didn’t get locked in a parallel world. They didn’t have to struggle a year against the Master, traveling the world. They didn’t get mind wiped. They got zapped into the past and got 40-50 years of marriage and a second child.
Thank you.
Quite right. Also, the 'shock' scene serves an important purpose - Amy *chooses* Rory, without hesitation, both confirming her love for her husband and... well, 'leaving' the Doctor. It's right and normal for a kid to choose their adult life rather than forever clinging to their imaginary friend/guardian/pseudo-parent, but that's not something the Doctor is good at accepting. I don't think the particular way that Amy's story ends is for shock anything like as much as it is for the culmination of her specific story.
If there's one style of companion exit I'd really like to see in NuWho, it's something like Tegan. I want someone to experience something traumatic, and rather than going 'oh it's just part of the adventure, let's move on', to actually decide 'no, I don't want to do this anymore, this is horrible'.
It'd be a nice moment for reflection from the Doctor about how they live their life, too.
Yep, best possible result, if you ask me.
second child?!
No matter whether you like the episode or not, I do like a story that makes you feel SOMETHING. Moffat's writing definitely elicits an emotional response. Rather that over watching a show where I'm looking at my watch or not engaged.
Absolutely, I totally agree
Looking at you, Chibnall
This is a weird take.
You're kinda attributing motives to Moffat that aren't really evident in what is on screen.
Mild spoiler ...
I think Moffat needed to do it this way in order to have the Doctor react the way he did when he lost both Amy and Rory.
So I AM a big Moffat fan, in fact shortly after season 7 ended I was invited to his house for a chat and an interview (he has a life size weeping angel in his garden which scares the hell out of me. ) I find your views interesting as I am a much more plot fan and so throughout your series have been learning a new appreciation for some episodes through your eyes. Thank you for shearing your thoughts and feelings I value them all the more as I don't share the same experience. I do empathize though, I don't feel it here as much but it did annoy me when greys anatomy regularly do the same thing only they spend many episodes setting up an nice happy ending and then kill them in the final episode. For me the reason I guess this episode is less drastic is that in the press we knew this was the characters last episode so how they left was a mystery to be solved to me that meant I enjoyed the twists. I have also watched certain scifi movies and shows though not morning with everyone else as my brain is try to work out which of the three ways they could bring that character back are they going for and only after it's all done go , ohhh that was supposed to be the end. anyway hope you enjoyed my perspective as much as I enjoy yours.
Also well done Katrina on 5 years (I'm hoppeing you made it) this has been an intense year, I myself have been trusting a lot so i feel your should get a double poker chip or something, I think a custom staking plastic miniature would be the board game component upgrade for poker chips I'm not sure for AA.
That’s the point of a show though... to do things you don’t expect, otherwise what’s the point of watching a show if you can expect what’s gonna happen
(un)Fun detail - River was the one who had to blink to transport Amy back in time. Imagine a kid having to do it, for their parents.
You're probably already aware of the unfinished scene 'P.S.' that follows right after this, but additionally to that, definitely watch 'Rory's Story' and 'The Raggedy Doctor by Amelia Pond' from the Doctor Who Lockdown collection, all on UA-cam (there is a whole UA-cam channel called 'Doctor Who Lockdown', just watch all of it, definitely the best thing coming out of 2020)
The rest of the season is some of the best of Moffatt. I didn't mind the series arc of their "death"..or whatever, but within the episode I agree that the episode was over when they were back to the TARDIS (also a bad la-de-da ending after an emotional scene).
I mean, you're meant to be emotionally manipulated, thats the point of stories that want to make people feel emotion towards whats happening. I personally love this kind of thing and really liked the goodbye for them.
In all my rewatches of Doctor Who, I always jump over this, episode and watch the rest of the season and then go back and watch it. That's my way of dealing with it. Being reassured that everything will move on and reorient itself and then I can handle it. But you have to go read Summer Falls by Amelia Williams (the book the Doctor is reading in this episode. It really exists.) And I presume Katrina is going to make you watch PS.
3:03 - *Paula: “Am I gonna cry in this episode we're about to watch? Episode 5, Katrina?"*
*Katrina: **_Gets extremely cagey and evasive_*
Sense of foreboding to Maximum! Emergency tissue boxes on standby! This is not a drill!
I'll break out the mop for the tears.
Now you know how mice feel, when a cat “plays” with them. Though it is said that cats think _Steven Moffat_ is cruel to his prey…
leaving the Doctor and River was sad but growing old together and dying together was their happy ending
Best possible result, if you ask me.
@@StarkRG during power of three they had to decide between Doctor life and real life when they decided real life they worried about how to tell him because they knew he would be hurt..The angels gave them their decision in an unexpected way
I wish Paula would stop holding back and tell us what she really feels.
😂😂😂
hehehe
Yeah this emotional constipation isn't good for her 😂
😂😂
Amy and Rory DID get to live happily after though :)
...and maybe they lived in a better world, too. Given the state of things these days, I sometimes wish I could be teleported to the past!
I believe Paula understands that, just not in the manner she would have preferred
@@ftumschk in World War 2? Are you sure?
@@atharvadeshpande6907 Well I wouldn't choose to be teleported back to that _particular_ time, but - even if I were - at least the war was over in six years. I could live with that. I just yearn for a time when society was nicer, whether a war was on or not. There's so much rudeness and nastiness around these days, it seems. Present company excepted, of course!
We knew Amy & Rory were leaving when watching, so there wasn't really a 'trick' in the same way. It was kind of toying with the audience because we all knew they were gonna go, just not how.
very well said.
It still annoyed me, because I'm not a fan of that particular Moffat style of writing, but it definitely wasn't quite the same experience.
@@caitlin329 Agreed on both counts. He relies on the emotionally manipulative fake-outs too much, I think. But he wasn't trying to trick people as much (back then) as it seems (now.)
I don't know if Katrina watched the show live or after the fact, but really, I feel she tricked Paula more than Moffat. As you said, the audience knew that these 5 episodes would be the last 5 episodes for them. To avoid spoilers Paula wasn't told, but it was pretty common knowledge for the fans at the time this was the plan, and that something was still going to go wrong after the paradox.
@@LODintheshadows When I saw it back during release, it was exactly the "everybody's all happy and fine," moment that Paula mentioned that made me go, "oh, here it comes."
I don't think this was Moffat trying to be clever, when this aired in the UK at least everyone knew that this was Karen and Arthur's last episode with the show so I think Moffat is trying to give the episode stakes again by making the audience unsure how the episode is going to end, it tricks you into having some hope that maybe somehow its all okay. RTD actually does exactly the same thing with Tennant on a much smaller scale. I remember going into that episode knowing my favourite doctor was regenerating but when he says "I'm still alive" and you see the shock on Tennant face and the joy only for it to get ripped away really gives the emotional hit to the episode. Basically the practical issues of trying to keep secrets on this scale meant that this episode was written knowing that it had been spoiled for most the audience so it had to do more, that's probably why it's so annoying when you go into it without the ending being spoilt, because it was written with the expectation you already knew.
100% this
That's why I wasn't expecting this reaction, although in hindsight it is understandable. As someone who knew their departure was coming and can be jaded, I thought it was fine. But I can see that two people who didn't know the BBC announcements, who can get emotional over coffee commercials, would consider this heavy-handed.
I think he was just trying to tell a story, really. Across the fanscape in recent years it seems that ;people increasingly attribute personal motivations (usually implying faults in a person's character) to people who are basically just doing their jobs. It's perfectly fine not to like the particular way a person does their job, of course. I'd rather it wasn't personalised as often as it is though.
I think Moffat tricked us in a very nice way in this episode. Like the doctor said 'If you read it, it's going to happen'. And we read the gravestone, the doctor read the chapter-titles. What do you think was gonna happen after this? I don't think river would trick the doctor that hard by writing this book and the title like that, just to push him. So Amelia's last farewell had to be there for a reason, right?
i really like the Moffat-era, even more than Russel t. Davis. Both are brilliant, but I think Moffat has this little bit of spice for every episode where you don't know, if there a happy end till you watch it. I really really love it.
But life can be like that - you avoid catastrophe, feel happy and then it goes to shit again. For me it's actually more realistic.
fair point!
In the words of the British comedian Ken Dodd: "Smile and be happy, things could be worse!
So you smile and you're happy and things do get worse."
In my head canon, an elderly Amy & Rory are there for Melody when she regenerates into "Mels" and eventually help her get to where she needs to be (cause there's still quite a gap between 1970 and Amy and Rory's youth) "You got to raise me after all"
They all were in NY, so that fits! Or maybe it was her adopted brother.
She was referring to child Amy and Rory raising her. Over the course of that episode, you can see they (especially Amy) were acting like her parents, even though they were the same physical age.
@@kwanarchive ...I knew she was, but that was written a whole season before the Ponds' exit. it's just headcanon, would be a nice timey-wimey bow around their timelines, and a "happy ending".
The fact that Steven Moffat managed to get us care for Amy and Rory so much that we felt such burning anger for him during this episode, shows his talent as a writer. Just you wait, Paula, you'll love him again in less than 10 episodes, the best NweWho Doctor is coming!
I actually love this episode, because of the emotional roller-coaster. That is what makes it so great. That's what make Moffat such a great writer.
The issue with reactions is that you stay away from spoilers and weren't around when things like companions or doctors leaving were all over the news. Back in 2012, everyone knew this was their last episode and what you call "Moffatt manipulating you and thinking he's so smart" was more of a "waiting for it to happen" because we all knew this was it.
The show is written with what the general public know in mind, back during Tennant's run there was a fake-out regeneration and a fake "next" doctor because at the time there were rumours (and later confirmation) that Tennant would be leaving.
But she didn't watch it back then and didn't know leave her alone
@@IloveTashaGhouri Which also means she isn't part of what was the target audience when the episode aired originally. The target audience was aware and Moffat knew that as well. You can't fault the episode for playing to its audience just as you can't fault her for not knowing beforehand.
@@IloveTashaGhouri what do you mean leave her alone? It's not a mean spirted comment, it's just explaining why the show is written how it is at this point
EXACTLY. This seems so obvious to me, even if you weren't around at the time, that her reaction seemed so extreme with that context, and I literally thought she was just being facetious at first. Like "ooo, Moffat thinks he's so smart tricking me like that, oooo, it makes me so mayud!!!!"
And as she kept going and didn't change tone at all, I eventually realized ".....oh.....she's completely serious".
There is a chance Moffat wasn’t being malicious.
He wasn't. At the time of release, everyone new Amy and Rory were leaving mid season and this was supposed to be the mid season finale. Also, she should really have guessed due to the foreshadowing in The Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and the Power of Three, and especially the chapter name: Amelia's Last Farewell
intent really isn't a factor, you can be abusive/manipulative without meaning to. The impact gaslighting has on autonomy has to do with the mismatch in expectations and reality, convincing someone that their lived experience is not real. The reason you have a desire to fuck with them isn't actually involved in their anxiety response to being controlled, that's something they can only consider after the nervous system reaction, so it only serves to shame them into further gaslighting themselves that it didn't happen or that the other person meaning well means they have no responsibility in the matter
Paula saying "fuck you".... That hurts... Seeing our sweet innocent Paula hurt like that
Is she that sweet or innocent? She is a grown woman.
@@mjm3091 true but of the two she always had the more naive innocent vibe to me. Katrina always struck me as the one who would get you into trouble. The mischief maker. Granted I know I don't know that or them like that but it's the vibes I got from them so it's what I currently believe until otherwise
oof that's a creepy old man vibe fo sho
Sorry I can't agree with Paula. Obviously she's allowed to feel the way she does, I just don't agree. Doctor Who never made me feel emotionally manipulated, it just made feel emotional. I don't have a strong reaction to most shows. I enjoy them, but as an observer. Moffat always made me feel a part of the story and feel something, which I really loved. But I understand there are differing opinions.
completely valid!
@@PaulaDeming So is yours! I’ve always believed that it’s fun to discuss mass media. It can be fun to debate a point and try and get another person to see your point of view, but ultimately, it’s entertainment. And entertainment is subjective.
I can say that because I never felt manipulated, and other reactions I’ve watched didn’t use that word; it hadn’t really occurred to me that anyone would view it that way. So I had to think about if I felt that way. And while I don’t, there are other popular TV shows where I’d never said it in those words, but that was exactly how I felt (Walking Dead I’m looking at you!). Anyway, it gave me another descriptive tool to put in my toolbox, so thanks for that.
It's only sad because Amy and Rory don't get to see the Doctor again. But if you look at the gravestones, they live to be 82 and 87... they lived a long and happy life together.
I think that the reason for the sadness is the other way around - that it was sad because it is the Doctor who doesn't get to see Rory and Amy anymore. They did have each other for a long life. But to him, they were the first companions that he would just turn up and have Christmas dinner with as a family. His attachment was deeper than past companions and for a while he was more than just a mad man and his box.
@@shadout Plus they are his mother and father-in-law. :P
I think more about their families. One day the pair disappear never to return.
I know about the PS mini episode but that just adds another layer of sadness.
The pair were together and led a good life but that doesn't remove the emotional consequences.
For me I love Moffat, I like the way I care about the episodes in a way I never felt with RTD. Saying that I watched this as it was originally aired so I knew going in it was Amys last episode in the UK these last 5 shows were billed as their swan song
Same. I liked RTD's era, but I never really cared much about the companions as characters. When it was their time to go, I was always, "eh, whatever," about it - it was never sad to me. Moffat actually made me care about the companions. I actually cried when Amy and Rory left because they mattered.
For me it's quite opposite - I mean I do love Moffat era the most, but I actually do not like Amy or Rory at all. Donna and Wilfred were the peak, with Clara and the rest being slightly behind. But I much more cared for Wilfred, than for another reused idea by Chibnail - Brian. And cared much more for Donna than for Williams.
@@mjm3091 I like Donna of all the RTD era Season 4 was my favourite of that era, I just connect more with Moffats style, Empty Child/Doctor Dances, Girl In The Fireplace, Blink, Silence In The Library/Forest Of The Dead were my favs even then
@@mjm3091 you could at least get the name right man... Wilfred!
@@atharvadeshpande6907 lol I don't know from where the Wulfric came out, yes I was talking about Wilfred. xD
I actually really liked this episode and liked how this one was made, I wasn’t mad at it at all and I like how Moffat writes
I enjoy the episode as a whole. The Statue of Liberty is kinda silly, but it’s fun. And I like the fakeout death, but maybe the difference is me and many others knew it was their final episode. That likely makes a big difference in the viewing.
Same, I liked this ending for them.
I mean I liked the unexpected mid season send off.
@@zartig09 I didn't necessarily know it was their last episode, but I did know that [REDACTED] was taking over the companion role at some point. So I was surprised (I thought it would end up being at least 2-3 episodes further into the series), but I wasn't quite as bitter as Paula.
And Eleven-Amy-Rory is my favorite TARDIS team to date (including any of the classic series that I've seen).
@@KthulhuXxx Definitely my favourite Tardis team too. I somehow knew it was their final episodes, but did not know who the next companion was. So my reaction to the episode with the next companion was probably different to most peoples.
Admittedly episodes should be made so that you can watch them with as little to as much knowledge about the ongoing with the show and still enjoy them. You should be able to enjoy this episode and the future episodes with or without knowledge of the companions leaving and I’m now thinking this one doesn’t really strike the right balance entirely.
I mean, I want to be manipulated by television, that's the point
True
My first thought was that every time we feel an emotion about somebody who never t existed, we've been manipulated by definition. However, if I think about it, I regard certain kinds of manipulation as inferior to others - for example, in a horror film any director can make an audience jump by having something appear suddenly and go 'boo' - and these jump scares are often derided because they don't take any effort or subtlety. They're cheap and don't spring from the story, whereas a really great scary film works at creating a mood, makes you frightened of what *might* jump out. Perhaps, then, seeming to save Amy & Rory only to then lose them could look like cheap manipulation. I'm not persuaded of that since there was no shock value in their departure - actually, the shock was, very briefly, that it seemed that they *weren't* going to leave after all. Besides, the 'saved, but then lost' narrative device is a basic mechanism of tragedy - things have to be achingly close to a happy ending for a sad ending to be really tragic.
Wow. I thought the only glaring weakness of the episode was the complete daftness of the Statue of Liberty. I thought the rest was the normal brilliance of a clever Steven Moffatt story. But as you say we're all different and it's fascinating to see such a passionate different reaction.
Yeah, the Liberty thing was just plain goofy. It makes no sense.
Absolutely agree.
@@catwhowalksbyhimself Why? The very first episode the Angels appear in ends with a montage of a ton of different statues. I think that in this episode the point is the Angels have become so powerful they can start taking over any statues they want.
@@markc4008 That was more or less a gimmick. The angels don't take over statues. That isn't how they work. They don't change shape. They merely turn into stone, but they stay the same. It's even a plot point that the degraded angels in an earlier episode look nothing like statues that belong on that planet because they dont' take over statues.
@@catwhowalksbyhimself Whether you consider it a gimmick or not it was in the episode and set up their later appearance as different statues. I'm afraid... you don't get to decide how they work.
As for the other episode you mention... that really isn't a plot point. There is zero mention of an inability to take over other statues. There were simply no statues there in the first place, and the Doctor and others simply assumed the Angels were statues put there by the Aplans.
Whenever the Angels had a story, their lore was built on. Nothing that was added ever contradicted what came before, but especially in the case of taking over other statues was already, previously, set up.
I remember despising the show for like a week afterwards and I didn't really get back into until the 50th, but Capaldi is definitely worth sticking around for...
Oh yes indeed...magisterial!
100%......He had some cheesy moments but he's up there as one of the greatest Doctor's there has been
Definetly! 12 is the best!
Matt Smith is also worth sticking around for. He still has some great episodes ahead.
The First second of Eternity will have passed!
"Respect the characters and let them have their story"
i dont get that bit - this was their story....
Agreed - The reality is that traveling with the Doctor is dangerous and the situation can go from safe to deadly in a snap (or a blink...). Bryan told them to travel with the Doctor despite knowing this (“some-not many- but some of them die”). He weighed the situation and thought they should risk it and give up their regular lives for the chance to be with the Doctor. I didn’t necessarily see this stop and go of being on the TARDIS as being emotional manipulation but rather Moffat showing how difficult it is to manage life as time travelers. That said, Rory did die and come back to life waayyyy too many times... I’m glad I saw your reaction, though - I’ve never seen anyone react with so much anger toward this episode, so it’s nice to be aware that’s how some people feel about it. I really enjoyed hearing both your perspectives!
This is the first negative reaction I’ve seen on UA-cam regarding this episode, who knew it was going to be Paula. I for one loved how the Pond’s story ended, never felt emotionally manipulated by Moffat. And I too am an emotional person. Moffat story telling is very memorable, it was beautiful how Amy’s fairytale story with her raggedy Doctor ended, but then again entertainment is subjective.
But if you watched like me on tv when it got released, then we already knew that a new companion was coming and these first 5 were the swang song for Amy and Rory.
@@thabraineater That's the thing, it's not like he did this JUST to be a twat. Their time on the show was coming to an end. They literally had to be written off, and he sent them out with a bang. Better that than just like some uneventful "and they lived happily ever after" crap.
The new companion had to start next episode so he made sure their story was over in time for it. I really don't see the issue. I feel like she's looking at it purely from a standpoint of Moffat having complete control over what does and doesn't happen in the show, and not taking enough into consideration the other variables at play. It's not like he's just writing a book, it's so much trickier than that; he literally has to wrangle a lot of things including how many hours or days or episodes he gets to shoot with any given actor or actress, and factor all of that into every single detail he writes into the show. All things considered, I think he did a pretty good job for most of it.
River's love for the Doctor shines in that final graveyard scene.
River loses both of her parents, at the exact same time. However she never lets her eyes off the angel. She allows the Doctor to blacken his own eyes, forcibly blinking, in an attempt for himself to get pulled back through time to possibly save Amy & Rory.
But she let's him have that moment despite the fact that it should be her who feels that intense emotion.
WOAH. I have never caught that and that is such a BRILLIANT OBSERVATION 😭❤
Paula RTD literally did the exact same thing when Tennant regenerated by having him say 'I'm still alive' then have it ripped from him with Wilfred. I personally liked the double whammy because it makes there loss even more tragic by being given false hope like with tennant my heart dropped when I originally heard the 4 knocks. I do understand that it wasn't a 5 to 10 second false hope like tennants one. that it was dragged out and personally i think it should have happened a little quicker
Exactly. Moffat's style may not be to your taste, but it's effective. You may not like the rollercoaster, but it still works on you. It makes you feel things. Tennant's last scenes felt way more manipulative to me because the situation with Wilt felt so much more artificial, like RTD was sitting just off camera, writing the scenes as they happened with no forethought, no foreshadowing. Of course, this situation with Amy and Rory was also artificial (it's fiction, after all), but it was built up throughout the story, throughout the series to this point. Built up, but not given away. You're meant to feel the way the characters feel, the way the Doctor feels. It's a gut punch as much for us as for the characters, and it is meant to be. You may not like it, but the dude knows what he's doing. Proof is in the pudding. It works.
The difference is that moment literally lasted for about 3 seconds and even if you just watched the show and had no context about tennant leaving or anything you wouldn't necessarily believe that it was all OK and happy. Also its just the point of how the series did it over and over. But with tennants regeneration we knew it was coming, the odd had said it was coming etc etc
@@willbaker6532 they also did a fake out regeneration that went into a hand, so…
But they did a fake one with David let her vent
4 knocks thing was kinda obvious though. They were building up to his death from the start of season 4 and it was the final episode.
Of course the big difference for Paula is that at time of broadcast everyone KNEW going into it that this was their last episode and had known for months, it was just a question of how rather than when.
Moffat is actually a strong advocate for the audience being far smarter than they're usually treated. And as said above, their leaving was 100% expected and discussed as part of the series' promotional tours, interviews and such. This is one of the issues with watching shows in retrospect, you loose all the wider context.
I mean, Doctor Who is such a highly regarded show that leading cast members always make appearances on Britains most-watched evening chat shows - so even people with no interest in the show would have known Karen & Arthur were leaving.
I don't remember knowing it was this episode, we definitely knew it was this season, though.
Moffat’s time as showrunner is my favorite time in Modern Who, so I may be a bit biased. I love everything about this episode. Even Angel liberty. I agree with many of the other comments that talk about it being a different experience watching it as it aired because it was like a game of when they were going because you already knew it was definite. So it was fun not manipulative then. I can see how on a watch without the definitive info that it could be taken otherwise but I don’t personally get the vitriol. That being said everyone is different and it is your reaction, and despite how pissed off you were it was entertaining for your audience. Don’t stop the show please.
We would never actually stop ❤
The Statue of Liberty gets the rule of cool pass, it's just too irresistible to not do, and exactly the kind of daft silly nonsense that is Doctor Who's bread and butter.
@@SeanS102 exactly what Moffat said. How do you not do it, you set an angel story in New York, and you have to do it. You can't not. I'm ready to give him the pass.
Side note: last time I was in NYC (prepandemic) I accidentally spent some time hanging out at the building that was CGI’d into Winter Quay. Fun stuff when I realized.
@@KatAlysha also thank you very much for taking the time to respond directly!
And next the animated Ending of this Episode that wasn´t filmed
Patreon exclusive, unfortunately.
I don't feel emotionally manipulated at all, nor do I feel like Moffat was treating the audience like idiots. I don't see how you could even reach that conclusion. Just assuming that he thinks he was being clever really put me off this reaction, not unlike how judgmental you were of Mickey, describing him as "patriarchal" when Rose treated him like shit. In fact, I found both Rose's exit ("this is the day I die"), Donna's memory loss ("the most loyal companion will die") and Ten's regeneration, where he assumed he'd be fine before the four knocks happened, were all FAR more emotionally manipulative and more of a bait-and-switch than this was.
I don't understand hating the emotional rollercoaster of it. It's a fast paced adventurous show where people's fortunes can flip on a dime, and you guys LOVE to cry and be emotional in your reactions. It's part of what makes watching your channel so satisfying. I love the Moffat era, and I think in terms of storytelling and emotional melodrama, he out-delivers RTD (who I also enjoy). Every time a companion exits the show, it's got to gut you on some level or it doesn't really honor the adventure they've been through. I'm bummed if Paula hates Moffat because I think seasons 8 & 9 are some the best of NuWho in terms of emotional Doctor/Companion arcs, much more mature and murky than ever before. Stay strong, Paula! We'll all stories in the end.
yes agreed 8 and 9 are moffat showing a great side of his writing and reaching a new level as a writer just in a different way to how he wrote for smith.
Don't you worry, Paula didn't actually give up on the show. She just needed to feel what she was feeling to get through it ❤
@@KatAlysha Fair enough, we all need to vent our emotions sometimes
@@KatAlysha Woo-hoo! You guys rock. I feel like with Doctor Who AND with TNG, you're just starting my favorite run of seasons on each. Looking forward to it. :)
This is the most unique reaction to this episode I’ve ever seen. I think for those of us who knew they were only going to be in five episodes this season when it aired. It hit me hard because I was going to miss them. But I knew it was coming. Moffat is by far my favorite. But I don’t think you’re wrong. Great reaction.
Paula needs to watch "P.S." to get a little bit of closure.
And the Doctor Who lockdown Rory's Story.
They did, read the description
I feel like Moffat is going to get another strongly worded letter from Paula 😬😥
Why do you hate Steven Moffat because of this? I thought it was a pretty clever and genius play on emotions for a showrunner to do
He does it all the time. So often that honestly it makes you a bit detached from it all in the end.
The problem with Moffat writing is that he thinks he's clever by doing fake outs and 'gotchas', but in reality what's enjoyable is the characters and the story. He sometimes ends up getting way too lost in trying to be a 'genius' that he managed to ruin one of his shows and really struggle in the other for a while.
@@caitlin329 to each their owm
@@caitlin329 Yeah. I'm a huge, *huge* Moffat fan, but he's not perfect and this episode in particular is highly flawed.
I don't agree with the fans that think he got powermad or something. I think it's simpler and more disapointing than that: It stems from his origins as a comedy writer, and the best and absolute worst of his writing is grounded in that origin. Setup, setup, subversion/punchline. The pattern of many great jokes and stories, a pattern that Moffat really struggled to break away from.
@@caitlin329 but amys departure is entirely about her as a character? its like the ultimate statement of who she has matured to become. moffat rarely abandons story and character. also gatiss is more to blame for sherlock if u look at who did what.
@@caitlin329 I agree fully with this. Thankfully he would get somewhat better once we get into Peter Capaldi's era (and I for one am *definitely* looking forward to Paula's reaction to those episodes), but even then there would be points where his worst traits as a writer would rear their head again
"Just you wait until my husband gets home...." :D
it's a sign of both good acting & writing that it can "move" you emotianlly. I get your your p*ssed off!, but how many shows can generate this level of involvement & commitment to the characters!
That's a great way of putting it.
There's also such a thing as trying too hard, and Moffat seems especially prone to it. You shouldn't write to extract the maximum quantity of emotions, that's not how you create a genuine moment.
@@ozzyp97 but it is a genuine moment ? it makes a statement about the characters and who they are and how far they have come AND is a sad tearjerker departure. what is trying too hard?
@@ozzyp97 What is a genuine moment to a time traveler, though? The Doctor sees this kind of thing happen to side characters on a daily basis. Eventually it was going to be his companions’ turn. I guess I just don’t see this as any less genuine than other companion departures, personally. Take Rose. There’s the moment she gets transported to the parallel universe against her will, separating her from the Doctor. Sadness. But then she gets back! Not sad! It seems like everything’s going great and the day is going to be saved, but then something goes wrong and Rose is sucked thru to the parallel universe again. Sadness ensues as she pounds at the wall, knowing she can’t return. The Doctor frowns with deep sadness at the same wall. After a small break from the emotion, he’s able to project himself to Bad Wolf Bay for more sadness and a final send-off, kind of like Amy’s letter but with the roles of companion and Doctor reversed. I found both moments to be equally as genuine myself because they’re both tragedies that could reasonably befall time travelers. I’m not sure what the difference is.
Right, television is meant to make you feel.
I get being upset, but being angry specifically at Moffat for telling his story the way he wanted seems so off base to me. You’re not alone in feeling this way to be sure. I’ve seen it plenty of times before from people, but it never makes any more sense to me. Blaming a writer for writing the way they write will never makes sense to me.
Writer don't always get everything the way they want it. Especially writing for a huge global thing like the BBC was becoming at that point in time.
I get it. Especially if you notice things over and over and dont always end up thinking that writing choice was the best for the story. Then you get to a moment that's really working and did its job and then its ruined (in certain opinions) by an unnecessary choice that feels unearned or inconsistent with where the story felt naturally it was going.
For me I never took any of the previous episodes to mean anything other than leading to something big and probably sad. When the paradox saved everything i was ready to be disappointed that they made me feel like i was saying goodbye to these characters only to be like "just kidding everything is fine loser why you crying?" So i was moved emotionally but ultimately satisfied with that rug being pulled out. Like finally consequences and something big happening and sticking and really meaning something. But if it felt to some that the natural direction was a different ending then yeah you're going to be annoyed that a writer just does the same thing they always do.
Look out Moffat. Paula has you in her sights. I've never seen her so ready to throw something or someone.
When she took off her jumper I was alike "UH OHHHHHHH... it's about to get real!" :D
How long will it be before she challenges him in a duel to the death for playing around with her emotions one too many times?
@@christianwise637 I don´t recommend his backyard. He has weeping guards...
ua-cam.com/video/DHe1CmJJ4lw/v-deo.html
Successful emotional manipulation is exactly what I want. Finally some consequences here, and I thought a fitting end for Amy and Rory. I never have issues with a jokey moment coming directly before a serious one. Surprised you weren't into the tragedy of this
here we go ...
damn, Paula is pissed.
This episode broke me up and does it over and over again. Now I recognized that Paula feels a little played with at the end but Amy and Rory each have their own character arcs to conclude. Rory began as the lovable loser who Paula herself felt wasn't good enough for Amy and didn't have a shot. The conclusion of his arc is pretty much him standing on the building ledge saying "To save you, I could do anything". Rory has pretty much-reached super-hero status. Amy's arc concludes with her once and for all caught in a situation where she has to choose between staying with the Doctor or choosing to take her chances with Rory. There is no doubt in her decision and she chooses Rory. I find it interesting that The Doctor is filmed in the background as her decision is made. He looks small and weak and upset beyond belief. He has gone from being confident and all-knowing to a man with no control over the situation, begging her to stay. The Doctor and Rory have changed places.
The ending of the episode is upsetting for sure but it also made for an absolutely unforgettable ending for Amy and Rory. For those moments on top of the building, this is literally the Amy and Rory show. I'll contrast this to Donna's ending where she is forced to forget everything she is and everything she has done. She'll live the rest of her life as a shadow of what she once was.
I watched this episode back when it originally aired. IIRC, we knew at the time that Karen and Arthur were leaving and this episode was framed as the mid-season finale. Given all that, it was kind of obvious they weren't going to make it out and the final scene played a lot differently for me than it did for Paula. It didn't feel like emotional manipulation so much as it felt like slowly ratcheting up the tension. You KNEW something had to go wrong, but the characters didn't. So, for me, it didn't feel disrespectful. But, I can definitely see how jarring it would feel to have this come out of nowhere.
Similar to an earlier commenter, TV shows don't elicit much emotion from me. So, I appreciate Moffat's stories more than any other Dr. Who writer. Maybe I need such "tricks" in order to feel things. But isn't all writing a sort of 'magic trick'? Using squiggly lines on paper to create emotions out of thin air? To create the illusion that a totally made up story is, or could be, real? That's pretty amazing when you think about it. Of course, it is only because we can have such different reactions that this type of reaction video is worth watching! (But I cannot feel good about Paula's pain. I hope she'll continue being Wibbly Wobbly for us!)
don't worry, I'm not going anywhere!
I must be a Vulcan, I just thought what s great episode.
haha different strokes, different folks!
The “problem,” per se, with Paula’s reaction is that she thinks this was released like a normal series when everyone else knows that was not the case as it was split into two parts with a Christmas special breaking them up and several months in between each one.
Watching it live, I knew this was going to be Amy and Rory’s final episode and that a new companion was coming, so I have never felt emotionally manipulated because my expectations were always reasonably grounded and Brian telling them to go off beforehand underscores the tragedy of the whole thing.
If you’re being deliberately shielded from information about the show to prevent spoilers, then I can understand why you’d have this kind of reaction, but since I knew what was going to be the ending, I didn’t feel manipulated at all, but for reactors, that’s a hard bridge to navigate as the episode was written with certain expectations in mind, but for a reactor, that could just be considered pure spoilers if told up front, so then episodes like this come off as worse than they were originally intended because of how they are perceived by the audience in question.
This happens with a lot of Doctor Who reactions. In the real world, it's announced months in advance when a companion or a doctor is leaving, so the live audience knows when their last episode will be. Reactors watching years later obviously not knowing can cause reactions like this because they want to stay away from all spoilers. I've seen several reactions to Matt Smith's last episode where the reactor didn't know until the regeneration scene that he was leaving.
this is a really good point, thank you for sharing it!
Yeah, we even knew who the new companion was going to be portrayed by before the series started.
Please don't stop watching Doctor Who as I said before that is the only reason I subscribe to this channel. And considering the nature of the TV show Amy and Rory were not going to be around forever. And the rest of season 7 includes some of the best episodes of Doctor Who ever.
I hope they stick till season 9. Season 9 is the best season of newwho. Not a single weak episode beside sleep no more, but i like that too. Season 8 is hit and miss, too many weak episodes
Now Paula needs to see ps & rorys story from doctor who lockdown, we had a year to cope so a break is fine
Absolutely this!
Rory's Story and P.s. are must-watches.
P.S was reacted to and you can see her reaction to it on Patreon currently
Not everything is Stevens fault. Breaking up is very hard to do sometimes. Matt and Alex both understood way better than I did how we'd be better just moving on without extending Karen and Arthurs involvement. And while there's a lot to be said for a clean break, we do whatever we can sometimes to keep things together. hindsight is often a hard lesson. This is as close as I can get to apologies, by the way. Some people apparently still hate me for what happened with Serenity, too. Don't even get me started on how to go back after, especially when you won't be invited, just expected to be there to fix whatever your replacement has messed with.... I refuse to feel guilty for not running towards that. But inevitably I'm drawn by some inexplicable force...
Don't hold back, tell us what you really think Paula
Been thinking on this a lot. I loved seeing your reactions and I agree you like what you like and not liking it is fine, no problem with not liking it, but all writing is emotional manipulation. That ending was just a play on Romeo and Juliet with them getting a happy ending that we don’t see. He did nothing other great writers haven’t done. It’s not a Moffat trick, it’s a good writer trick. I hope this doesn’t sound spikey. I genuinely love watching the reactions because they are different from mine. This just confused me slightly.
tbh I rather be emotionally manipulated (moffat era) than bored (rest of the writers in charge before & after moffat ).
The "tell the little girl a story..." bit pligs what many considered a plot hole with Matt Smith's first episode.
The "how can Amy have crude, hand-made, but properly representative, toys reflecting adventures she and the Doctor "had" when he was missing from her life all those years.
Yeah, people seem to miss this - that in The Eleventh Hour we see the same moment of Amelia sitting in daylight, hearing the TARDIS arrive that we see at the end of this episode. In The Eleventh Hour it's presented so that it looks like it's a dream that Amy's having about something that never happened - but only at the very end do we discover that the Doctor came back that morning and told her about all these adventures she's going to have one day - so she's always remembered him doing that. Plus, it creates a beautiful and unseen final meeting when the Doctor goes back to little Amelia and tells her about her future, when he knows it's the last time he's going to see her, as the little girl he first met...
I thought fiction, by its very nature, was meant to manipulate many aspects of the individual. Best. Leo.
wow, that escalated quickly. i love this episode, the writing, the performances! and how the story is told. ive never seen it as manipulation. when they come back to the graveyard and are "too happy" its purposefully telling the audience that something is off, its too "easy" and the Dr. is missing something cause he doesnt even want to think of the possibility of losing Amy. At the time my only problem with the ep. was trying to figure out why the Dr. couldnt go back to get Amy (e.g. to NJ, or to 1939) but once you figure that out i really like it
I'm definitely going to cry. I cried at the end of the last video when Katrina looked in the camera. I'm scared
"And you've just been to... Manhattan. What planet is that?"
A crack eating on a young child’s life
bleeding into her head
She asked Santa for a police mans help
But sent a doctor instead
The child was once alone blue
But so did fall something old and new
He mended the cracks
but the repair had a limit
so the phone box called
And he said I’ll be back in five minutes
great reaction, I love almost everything about this episode, also Paula you don't need to apologize for how you feel, everyone has their own feelings and their own reactions to storylines, the only thing I don't like but look past is how The Doctor can't go back to get them because he cannot fly the TARDIS in New York anymore, there is no reason he couldn't have went to New Jersey or any other state around New York in that time period and drove or walked or whatever to New York and take them back to the TARDIS,other than that I personally love Moffats writing more than anyone else on the show, also one of my favorite Rory lines ever is in this one, Amy says when they're on the building and Rory climbs on the ledge "You think you'll just come Back to life " Rory's brilliant response "When Don't I"
the one thing I disagree with you with though is when you said "respect the characters, let them have their story" because this is the Characters story, also they pretty much told us earlier in the episode that Rory was going to die by showing his name on the tombstone right after saying if you read it it's gonna happen like its etched in stone, the audience read the name,
great episode. the only companion departure apart from marthas that actually has good thematic reasoning behind it rather than just being a sad way to separate them. beautiful completion of amys arc of maturation and love for rory. smiths performance is so good in this episode. i have to say the comments about manipulation are off base. it is made very clear in the scene on the rooftop that if it works they will survive. there was no trick. rory explains his paradox and why it will work. did you expect them to splat dead on the pavement? the emotion comes from rory's bravery and amys love not because they will die. also that was to give rory his big send off and create an additional paradox in new york so he cant go back. without that scene rory doesnt get any send off at all. where were these criticisms in MUCH more clear examples of manipulation when rtd did them? how come he wasnt criticised for in the series 2 finale twice having rose state it was the story of how she died only for her to survive? how come rose teleporting back and then being teleported back again wasnt manipulation? how come that is supposedly its own thing? how is her teleporting back saying she's staying and then being taken back any less of a switcharoo? how come he wasnt criticised for the series 4 finale where it is twice stated that one of the children of time will die only for them not to? or when martha teleports and jack literally says to the audience that martha is dead. unbearable double standards. when does it any point say the audience was dumb or tricked? at the time we already knew they were leaving this episode so clearly when it was being written it wasnt in mind of thinking they were staying. its fine to dislike it but personal attacks over a tv show arent. just say you dont like the episode and you can say you dont like moffats writing say it was fucking shit whatever and explain why. this isnt about opinions. theres no need to turn that though into personal attacks for 10 minutes. especially then if you will bring up the previous person and praise them for doing the same thing but worse.
The problem is, a certain Christmas episode will have the exact same reaction I think, unless it is explained that, the episode was written and began filming, with one thing in mind, and then real life plans changed which caused the last minute rewrite. She will say its emotional manipulation again, but it won't be, because as we were watching the show live, we heard all the behind the scenes stuff, and know that's why things will happen the way they will. Apologies for vagueness, think should be understandable what I'm referring to, but don't want to post obvious spoilers
I may agree with this sentiment, but there’s no need to attack them over their initial reaction and sharing of opinions. They don’t need to properly justify all their points perfectly - this isn’t an essay, it’s their raw feelings and experience. I’m glad they were so open and honest in this video.
@@Cowmoo83 i am not attacking them over sharing their opinions. i made that very clear in the post. i said they can call the episode terrible if they want. i am literally complaining about them making personal attacks at moffat because they didnt like how he wrote something. pretty sure thats worse than me explaining why a lot of what they said was unfounded and done worse in the previous era but was never even pointed out... are you going to make the same post directed towards them because they "attacked" moffat for something he wrote as entertainment for children? i love their reactions i have never attacked that. i just do not enjoy 10 minutes of fuck you to someone who tried to write an episode of a family show. especially when a lot of the reasoning behind that is flawed. if paula is going to specfically bring up rose as an example of being good when really it did everything and worse this episode did i decided to point that out. i didnt say wow paula you are so dumb for thinking that. i just listed where i think what she said was inaccurate. i am just engaging with their comments. no attacks from me to them at all. if i didnt like them i wouldnt be here.
@@Cowmoo83 better to get honest reactions than a lot of the fake ones that go around, that absolutely love everything in every reaction video they make haha. I'm just bummed it was that extreme, because this ep and the next couple are some of my favs in whole series, and then end of this season also has some of my favs, and we will pribably have to wait for Paula to be ready again lol
Another similar situation which rtd did was tennent last episode. We keep getting this thing of he will knock 4 times, obviously, completely set up that it's the master we are meant to think of, then master disappears, and David survives, then we have Wilfred knock 4 times to "pull the rug from out under us"
I just realised how funny it would be if y'all quit the show after this since your channel is literally gallifrey gals. Maybe not that funny.
I think the whole "trick" thing wasn't as much of a problem when it first aired because it was already confirmed they were leaving. So it made more sense to create some amount of uncertainty as to exactly how and when they would leave.
In hindsight though, this episode AND all the back and forth in previous episodes does seem a bit much.
As a fan of the franchise since the early 80's... I think my reaction was way different than you two.... It was a sad ending, but at the same time it was a happy ending... every time the Doctor gives up a companion, there is generally 4 things that happen... something tragic (Donna/Rose) they get fed up with the doctor (Martha/Teegan/Sara Jane etc) they die (Adric and others) or events conspire to make it happen... (Amy and Rose again) I get this as a fan of the franchise, actors want to move on, while the characters don't so the show has to force it, and it's always going to feel manipulated, but if the ending is strong, heroic and true to the characters then that is what needs to be done..
I loved this episode, honestly my favorite part is river encouraging amy to accept the possibility, and there is no way, at this point in time in River's history she could know that it works, as she was the witness to this event.
If you take a break it's going to make me sad as the next episode is actually pretty cool... but also equally manipulative.
I'll disagree in that I think that RTD was MASSIVELY more emotionally manipulative than Moffat. A perfect example is the last episode for 10...at one point he says that regeneration isn't just changing form, than he will actually die and another man will walk around calling himself the Doctor. This directly contradicts 10's FIRST episode (also under RTD's watch) where he spends the entire episode convincing Rose that he's the same man as 9, just with a different face. (And it also contradicts the entire classic series, but RTD's era had very very few allusions to the classic series outside of Sarah Jane Smith.)
@@Atothetheist well the idea that rtd was more emotionally manipulative is undeniably true.
@@Atothetheist I mean... RTD's the one who decided his rather popular Doctor's last words should be "I don't want to go" right before someone else takes over...
@@Atothetheist No it's actually worse, I'm afraid. It's literally making people feel like their favorite character should have had more time on the show, and immediately puts people in a more negative position for the start of a new Doctor.
Regardless of how different it may be from what Moffat does, it's still emotionally manipulating. Rather than making it a happy time celebrating the incarnation like he did with Nine, or Moffat did with Eleven and Twelve... with Ten RTD decided that your last memory of him should be that he didn't get enough time and that it's been stolen from him and from you.
@@Atothetheist Yeah probably. Absolutely nobody was upset by the fact Ten didn't want to die seconds before he died. His words, by the way. Died.
I was shocked and mad that it happens so suddenly, but i think it works in retrospect. This was the reaction most ppl had. Half sad half mad. I love the show, all the new season except the new one. I love the new Doctor but sadly not the story’s :/
i love moffat i love this episode i hate chibnails new time .. this is doctor who for me
its one of mny top3 episodes of all of doctor who xD
No matter how much you hate the Moffat era, I guarantee you will feel nostalgic as hell and wish for him back, when you get to the Chibnall era. At least Moffat understands Doctor Who, Chibnall has no clue what he's doing and it shows.
Yeah :/
I actually preferred Steven Moffat's era to Russell's, so I'd _really_ like to see him back, if only to write one or two episodes. As you say, he understands Doctor Who.
@@ftumschk Wow you have a very different experience of Doctor Who to me. Moffat didn't feel like he 'got' it much at all -he actually really changed it a lot more than most other showrunners bar maybe RTD (although that's purely from modernisation tbh)
@@caitlin329 the capaldi era is very much getting it. it is the doctor in ultimate. the perfect exam into the doctor and why he is such a good character. moffat got it better than anyone.
@@caitlin329 I'm someone who lived through and loved the Philip Hinchcliffe era and preferred its complex, dark stories to the ones that preceded it, and most of those that followed. I see Moffat very much in the Hinchcliffe mould and RTD more like Barry Letts - another superb producer, but IMHO Hinchcliffe took things to another level. Ironically, I see Chris Chibnall as more like John Nathan-Turner, whose era Chibnall heavily criticised at the time.
I think the real life break between this episode and the next one really helps.
Personally, I really like Amy and Rory’s exit (well, I have issues with the episode prior to the goodbye). I suppose I would’ve felt manipulated if we’d had this sort of ending to Rose or Martha. It wouldn’t have fit their arcs. For Amy and Rory though, I think a lot of their story has been the triumph of ordinary love in this giant complicated timey wimey universe. This ending to me is Amy making her choice finally.
I will say though I think that last bit of humor right before is a touch too cruel. I think if maybe they’d met a cute orphan kid and realized they were stuck in 1930s and A/R decided to go back to raise the child together, that might have worked better.
Congrats on coming up on 5 years, K!
At least the rest of the season is pretty fun especially the end. I personally love the twist at the end but you're entitled to your own opinion.
Getting past this episode just means we're closer to some of my favorites.
ok i get why you feel this way paula i really do but to echo other people's thoughts i think that it wasnt moffat's writing so much as both of you not knowing that this story was written with fans prior knowledge of rory and amy leaving this episode. We as fans knew that rory and amy were leaving on this episode well before hand when it aired. For us, it was just a question of how they were gonna go and that is what Moffat was playing with. Katrina concealed that from you with the best of intentions because spoilers. Sadly, the omission of that information kinda made you take out things on Moffat that weren't really 100% fair. I think the most unfair thing you said was that Moffat was treating the audience like they were idiots. i really disagree with that remark because playing with expectations doesn't make the audience gullible. I am sorry you got so angry with this one but i hope time will help you give this one a fairer shake.
I didn't have knowledge that people knew of Amy and Rory leaving before this released. I hadn't watched it in real time myself. So I suppose that means our reactions hit different.
i know what u mean and i know you said best of intentions so u didnt mean it in a rude way but i wouldnt word it like "katrinas fault" because its not really her fault. everyone wouldve been mad if she spoiled it before for paula. maybe maybe u could say she couldve done more as the experienced viewer to provide a different side or at least not feed paulas hate as much but thats how katrina said she felt at the time so what can u do.
@@KatAlysha i wanna be clear i dont mean that negatively. I suspected you may not have known either. Im dont want you to think im being mean when i say that.
@@dutchman8887 i agree i worded it kinda harshly.
Don't rage quit. So much is coming that is too good to miss (50th Anniversary, An Adventure in Space and Time, The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot, then Capaldi's Doctor a little on down the road).
I have to say, though, that Paula's reaction is fucking hilarious to watch. If I had just watched this episode for the first time, I know I wouldn't be laughing. But having some distance from it allows me the ability to watch this and enjoy how lively the reaction is. Fucks were being thrown left and right and it was fucking hilarious.
Although when you do a tv show you have to do it for the present audience, you can't do it for the people who are gonna watch it ten years later and will have missed the news... and at the time, the fact that it was Amy and Rory's last episode was massively known and heavily promoted so he wasn't trying to trick people the way you describe it.. I mean yes he was playing with it and yes you can not like it but in context the intend really wasn't as manipulative as you feel now. I'm not saying you're not entitled to your feelings in THIS context, of course you are, but it wasn't written that way at the time - it was the complete opposite in fact: it was written with the idea that people already knew how it was gonna end.
This episode is still hard to watch and it's been years.
Paula wasn't even this angry at Donna's ending, which is bizarre.
Rory and Amy ARE happy. (Remember the woman in "Blink' who was sent to the past? She was happy).
Paula: _"Tell me a story that makes me care because of what's happening in the story."_
Wait a few seasons.
I’m so sorry it rubbed you the wrong way but I love seeing the reactions from you every week. Being a Dr Who fan can be rough sometimes.
Interesting reaction. My issue with this episode was more about the Doctor never being able to go to New York again. There's lots of ways he could still get in touch with them (land outside NY, meet in another city,...)
Ultimately, all storytelling is manipulative when you think about it. But I can understand your frustration with being jerked around emotionally. If I remember correctly, Moffat struggled pretty hard with writing this episode and wasn't sure himself how he wanted their exit to be.
And try not to forget all of the Moffat episodes that you genuinely enjoyed, of which there were quite a few.
...and there are more good Moffat (and Moffat-era) episodes to come :)
he couldnt interfere with their timelines again. the doctor as a timetraveler is always slightly interfering just by being there. maybe maybe it would be safe but what if something went wrong and stopped them from growing old together or changed something written in the book? and the book said they dont meet again. you could say why write the book but the point is time travel isnt a straight line its a.... its all happening at once.
@@ftumschk literally about to respond with that, I'm a big fan of 9 personally. Plus 50th anniversary
@@dutchman8887 According to the show's own rules, unless their death is a fixed point, it doesn't matter.
And even then, The Doctor's 'death' last season was also supposedly a fixed point, but he circumvented that too.
Other examples of him changing time lines throughout the show are plentiful.
Congratulations on your sobriety Katrina. Very proud of you
As many others have said, it's worth remembering (and Paula should maybe have been told) that everyone did know this was the Pond's last episode.
The other thing I need to say, obviously everyone has a right to their own reaction, and it was a very emotional reaction, but suggesting Moffat thinks the audience he's writing for are idiots who can be tricked are not the kindest words, because that feels hurtful to audience members who enjoyed this episode and thought it a fitting end to the Pond's story.
Personally I think Moffat is one of the greatest writers, he took risks and they paid off most of the time.
Ps. If she hates Moffat after this, then holy shit what will she think of the current guy big chibber
There are lots of Stephen Moffat haters, lol. I really think this is a consequence of the change from the original series regarding the importance of the Doctor's companions. Some of them have become so important because of it there is no way to remove them from the show short of a permanent death or locking them away someplace away from the doctor forever. Another dimension that can no longer be reached, memories wiped or here locked in time as they live out the rest of their lives.
One good thing about this for me is that whole thing of Rory and Amy pretending to leave the show, which had been going on for ages! Finally came to a certain end here. I love Rory and Amy as much as all the others but really started to hate hearing that they weren't coming back- it just got past the point where it felt like they should have been gone for me. To be honest that was more annoying to me than what you guys were upset about.
I actually loved this one, as much because it was a great ending for these two companions as for the timey wimey stuff and the angels.
Thanks for the honest response, it means you are 100% into the best show on TV ever. :)
Is paula quitting the show? Damn i need her to watch heaven sent.
I sincerely hope she doesn't.
@@ftumschk Katrina confirmed they aren't. She really needs to watch Series 9. Moffat improves on the mistakes he made in this series a lot. And ofc... Heaven Sent!
@@atharvadeshpande6907 Good news! Thank you :)
@@atharvadeshpande6907 series 9 is best season of new who.
@@nikelmaharjan6755 yeah, although i would rank series 5 as best and series 4 below it, series 9 is a definite 3rd
incredible ending. 5 starts. all hail mofat.
Moffat is very good at manipulating our emotions. I also loved his Jekyll (2007) series. He was a successful comedy writer before that, and I guess it does take at least a little bit of genius to keep people laughing.
The whole point of a TV show is experiencing the ups and downs and the joy of being invested in the characters is in order to be emotionally "manipulated". Would you rather the showrunners just hold your hand and guide you through emotional rollercoasters? life sucks and sometimes in the real world life takes things from you unfairly and sometimes its good for tv shows to delve into that part of real life. I'd rather feel something as opposed to simply being content the whole time.
LOL, Paula got Katrina with Tasha Yar and Katrina got Paula back.
Mr Moffat is a Genius
some more examples of "emotional manipulation" from rtd or his era are dalek where the camera deliberately does not show rose not get exterminated but plays the extermination noise and the doctor goes off about how sad he is and shes dead but it turns out it was just a fake out as she is really perfectly ok and didnt even got shot. another example in the same series in bad wolf we see rose get disintegrated and for the next part of the episode it is treated like she is dead only for them to find out she was teleported and again is ok just with some daleks and gets rescued 2 minutes into the next episode. if you want to stretch "emotional manipulation" as far liking rory and then he dies in the silurian episode then theres a million more examples. lynda with a y being made very likeable in bad wolf and the parting of the ways and rtd himself saying deliberately made to be someone u want as the next companion only to be killed by daleks.
don't worry Paula you'll have Chris Chibnall soon so you'll feel absolutely nothing to the characters. You'll look back and appreciate these episodes i promise.