Would it be possible to put up the comparison numbers on your website as you review the bows and then update going forward? It’d be nice to see without having to go back to each video and make my own charts. If it’s too much of a hassle, no worries. I’m really enjoying the new way of you reviewing the bows and it’s perfectly OK for you to change the system midway through reviewing all the bows if it’s not making sense. Keep up the great work.
First off, that bow is sexy AF! I'm sold! Second, use percentages when calculating the numbers. For example. If the ATA is supposed to be 30 1/16" and it measured 30 1/8" then divide the manufacture's listed measurement by the actual measurement. So it would be 30.0625/30.125=99.8%. Then you can take the total value for that category times .998 and that would give you the score for that particular category. This will give more consistent numbers across different bows and take some of your bias out of the equation. I don't mind the bias because it's your review and I can throw out the parts that don't matter to me (some folks just want something to bitch about). This would also work for brace height, speed, etc. I'll gladly lend a hand developing a matrix if you like the idea and want to chat more about it.
I can pull up multiple reviews of each new bow. What I like about these bow reviews is the thoroughness of the features reviewed which are promoted by the manufacturers. Keep em honest Josh! And just as importantly Josh’s opinion. I can get the same info from another review but they can’t match Josh’s experience and therefore the value of his opinion.
I think the way you do these videos are awesome, and the way you break down the bows are simple enough for someone like myself to understand 😂👍keep the great content coming
Thank you for using the draw board. Let off adjustments and draw length modular cams, in my opinion, are causing more archers to shoot improper draw length and have form issues these days. I would love a video, no specific bow model, showing people how draw length and performance changes between the module positions and let off adjustments. Keep it up MFJJ!
JJ I bought the Omnia yesterday, I know it’s not the one on review but I have to say I have never shot a bow so dead in the hands !!!! Mathews and Hoyt better watch out cause Elite is on a mission and knocking doors down massively!!!
Got to say I believe this change will be an improvement regardless I personally enjoy your reviews an some people should just not speak on measuring they obviously don't have a clue
I would love to see quality of the strings accounted for in one of the categories. If there's a bow that has low quality strings that should honestly be replaced, they should lose points, especially in the flagship price ranges. A 1200+ dollar bow should come with a high quality strings. Maybe that would land in the features section, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the stock strings on each of these bows.
I would’ve thought Darton with the first floating yoke. but did some research. Indian got the first yoke patent in 1985. Expired 2003. I always go to the patents when I don’t have an old person to ask. 😂. But I agree with you. every compound should have one.
Mathews monsters had a yoke system first with the AVS cables and DYAD cams I do believe. But the cables didn't unwind when drawn just like the new mathews. Same premise on equalizing the load on the axle.
Hey Josh! Love that you are doing the load off measurement! Our industry has long included measurements that are irrelevant to the user. We actually included a “string angle” measurement on the data card for all our new bows. We realize the industry is not doing this yet and there is not a standard way of measuring for it, but we thought we would not measure the whole acute angle of the string at full draw, but rather give the actual angle the archer will feel on their anchor. So basically half of the whole angle at full draw, 30” draw length. What are your thoughts on doing this? Also, you said we have nothing for timing adjustments on the bow. Technically, that is not correct. If the cables aren’t touching the cable stops exactly, simply move the cable stop that isn’t touching until it touches. Both cams will stop at the same time. So there is a timing feature. If you wanna geek out over the fine details, let me know, we can get lost in the weeds real fast ;)
Love the review. I think the decibel meter is to simple of a measuring device to accurately capture the sound of a bow. It isolates on the loudest sound and then displays that. How does it distinguish between the bow shot and the arrow impacting the target?
Great videos!! I do have a question though, wouldn't the speed increase with less letoff? So if you are testing these bows @ 80% and they test it @ 70% in factory, wouldn't the speed variance you are getting be accounted for?
Yes because the the difference for the highest let off to the lowest letoff is about 3/8” draw length. So to get the bow at 30” DL at high letoff vs low letoff you would need to rotate the mod further around the cam, which is gonna increase the speed. Probably 4-5 fps.
back in the 80s most of the steel cable bows tied off on both sides of the wheel and not the limbs. The wheel didnt take up or let out any. Alpine did have the take up/feed first back in the early 90s. Darton back around 2009 had the DS bows that had the yokes.
I think you need to do a “final release “ video where you go back through the evals when you have all the new biws and can shoot them together. Otherwise, i feel like it’s difficult to get a good comparison since you judge bow #1 based on “what?”. Where by the time you get to bow # 4 you are rating it with some bias of the first 3. I don’t even know if I’m making sense here
Instead of measuring everything on the bow, shoot 100 arrows with every bow with same sights and rest and stabilizer at 50 to 80 yards and measure the groups and tell us how it feels and shoots.
Only curious.......should the bow be set to 70# (69.8-70.2#) before any of the measuring? Like ATA, Brace, etc...... If the bow is coming in hot, say 74# from factory, and you have to decrease that down to ±70#, won't that change those measurements? Maybe an ⅛" here, 1/16" there....... Or am I just over-thinking........
You commented that the “draw cycle” is pretty nice. What would be your perfect draw cycle? What 2022 or newer hunting bow has the best draw cycle in your opinion?
Check if the decibel meter is picking up the sound of the arrow hitting the target. Seems like all the bows are about the same in db Oh any why measure brace height at the hole instead of grip. That is where you are off by 3/8ths
So on my bow the wheel guard can move without hurting anything correct? Just new to this bow wasn’t sure if it need to be in the press , don’t seem like I should but just wanna double check. I feel like mine should move away from arrow shelf a bit.
Bummed that the bow weight is more than the ethos with a shorter axle to axle and speed is the same with same or more reflex than the ethos. Wish they would’ve just put the RAC system on the Ethos and called it a day.
MFJJ, how do you feel about making your initial review videos just the specs, feel and features, then at the end of the bow launch season scoring them in each category based on how they compare to all the other bows? That way we are comparing this year’s bows to each other and not some “theoretically perfect” bow. Also, can you test riser reflex geometry vs brace height at full draw so this debate can be settled? Pretty sure it’s just measured from the throat of the grip horizontally to the imaginary vertical line between the load off points of the cams, not the axle. It makes sense if you think about what happens when you torque a bow. Where the string comes off the cams is the pivot point and the further away that point is horizontally from the grip the more stable a bow should be at full draw.
When measuring the speed of a bow, is there any value in rating a bow based on the consistency between the shots with the same arrow weight? Wouldn't consistency between shots indicate better design and build quality?
If the bows had been tuned ahead of time. Others tune get bullet holes ect before testing. So you get a bunch of same speed numbers and one plus or minus 1 ft out of 3 shots.
May have missed it but are you taking into account the length of the bow on those weight numbers? Just may opinion as well but don’t think it’s fair to penalize the bow on the weight numbers if the bow is weighing what it’s advertised at.
Elite measure there draw length at 80% letoff from what I remember witch wouldn't change the speed much but would probably put that bow spot on in draw length
Can you just make a standard you loose this many points per 1/8 inch you are off or something instead of comparing year to year for brace heights, draw lengths, and atas
Customer just test shot Artus vs. Lift X 29.5. Same heavy arrow. Both 29". Lift X about a Pound more draw. Artus with a Biscuit and Lift X with QAD. X with monkey tails. Artus with cat whiskers. Artus with about 3/4" more brace. X only about 7 fps faster. Should be much more than that. So........ Artus is pretty damn fast. I was standing next to him shooting. I easily would say the Artus was quieter !!! Lest higher pitch snap noise. I did set the Artus to 85%. Lift X was as well.
Saying the bow is quieter while also using a fixed rest like a whisker biscuit on one bow, and a drop away on the other is just a flat out lie and misleading. At that point you are comparing the volume of the rest, not the bow. A drop away rest, no matter the brand, will always make noise and a whisker biscuit for the most part does not. Mathews Lift is the quieter bow of the 2. Not sure why the misleading comment on sound. Your speed comparison makes sense though. I’m sure if you went with a lighter arrow you would see more difference between them, as the efficiency of each bow differs.
Can’t really penalize them on honesty like that over speed because they technically didn’t fluff it. They say “ up to 340” so they didn’t set that speed in stone.
It's like 3 fps or something. Not enough to worry about. It will shorten draw length a tad, so if you don't adjust that back out it will essentially be the same speed give or a take a fps.
Come on now I think it’s fair to give them a closer score to darton. You can’t adjust the roller gaurd on darton and you can elite: they both have something the other doesn’t.
Ok, this might be a stupid question, but you don't know or learn of you don't ask. Just curious, if the bow was tuned, cam lean ,center shot, all the things you do, will the fps improve, because it is at the most efficient. Just curious about this. Newer to archery, and starting to work on my own equipment. Am I thinking too much into it or could that be a reason some of the bows don't reach their rated fps, besides some lying from the company.
Draw length and speed measured at 80% letoff. If you're not going to adjust the bow to the factory specs to check for honesty, then why do the test for a score. Just tell us how you feel and forget the rest.
@@douglasvaughn9530I disagree because weight should only be judged on how close it is to specified weight from the manufacturer. If you don’t like the weight, look at other bows.
You honesty category doesn't make sense, you're double counting points. You could have two bows that have identical numbers but because the marketing team exaggerated ones bows numbers more then the other, it would be categorized as a "worse" bow by your numbering system even though they have the same numbers. I understand lying about numbers is annoying but it doesn't technically make a bow worse.
That's why the score thing is stupid. Just give a review and tell us what you think. No way anyone should buy bows based on these scores. People need to go shoot the bows they are interested in and make their own decision. This scoring system is a joke at best.
Agreed. The darton consequence is a better value STILL! It just doesn't have as many features. And the consequence is shooting the same speeds with perf mods but with 7.5" BH.
Would it be possible to put up the comparison numbers on your website as you review the bows and then update going forward? It’d be nice to see without having to go back to each video and make my own charts. If it’s too much of a hassle, no worries. I’m really enjoying the new way of you reviewing the bows and it’s perfectly OK for you to change the system midway through reviewing all the bows if it’s not making sense. Keep up the great work.
I agree, that would be great!
Like an excel spreadsheet. That you pop up at the end of each video, comparing all of them.
As I opened this video I was thinking the exact same thing.
I think it would take away views from him so it wouldn't be a smart business decision.. But i do agree, it would be nice!
And here I thought I was the only one that couldn’t find the “final report card” that he commonly refers to but it can’t be found anywhere
First off, that bow is sexy AF! I'm sold! Second, use percentages when calculating the numbers. For example. If the ATA is supposed to be 30 1/16" and it measured 30 1/8" then divide the manufacture's listed measurement by the actual measurement. So it would be 30.0625/30.125=99.8%. Then you can take the total value for that category times .998 and that would give you the score for that particular category. This will give more consistent numbers across different bows and take some of your bias out of the equation. I don't mind the bias because it's your review and I can throw out the parts that don't matter to me (some folks just want something to bitch about). This would also work for brace height, speed, etc. I'll gladly lend a hand developing a matrix if you like the idea and want to chat more about it.
Axle to axle is plus or minus from the factory.
Right, and I thought of that after the fact but I was also basing this from Josh’s process.
I can pull up multiple reviews of each new bow. What I like about these bow reviews is the thoroughness of the features reviewed which are promoted by the manufacturers. Keep em honest Josh! And just as importantly Josh’s opinion. I can get the same info from another review but they can’t match Josh’s experience and therefore the value of his opinion.
liking the adjusted numerical scoring system. the "honesty" category is a great thing. hold them accountable.
I think the way you do these videos are awesome, and the way you break down the bows are simple enough for someone like myself to understand 😂👍keep the great content coming
Thank you for using the draw board. Let off adjustments and draw length modular cams, in my opinion, are causing more archers to shoot improper draw length and have form issues these days. I would love a video, no specific bow model, showing people how draw length and performance changes between the module positions and let off adjustments. Keep it up MFJJ!
11:32 what was the load out length?
JJ I bought the Omnia yesterday, I know it’s not the one on review but I have to say I have never shot a bow so dead in the hands !!!! Mathews and Hoyt better watch out cause Elite is on a mission and knocking doors down massively!!!
Got to say I believe this change will be an improvement regardless I personally enjoy your reviews an some people should just not speak on measuring they obviously don't have a clue
I would love to see quality of the strings accounted for in one of the categories. If there's a bow that has low quality strings that should honestly be replaced, they should lose points, especially in the flagship price ranges. A 1200+ dollar bow should come with a high quality strings. Maybe that would land in the features section, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the stock strings on each of these bows.
all elite bows come stocl with winners choice strings
I would’ve thought Darton with the first floating yoke. but did some research. Indian got the first yoke patent in 1985. Expired 2003. I always go to the patents when I don’t have an old person to ask. 😂. But I agree with you. every compound should have one.
Mathews monsters had a yoke system first with the AVS cables and DYAD cams I do believe. But the cables didn't unwind when drawn just like the new mathews. Same premise on equalizing the load on the axle.
Hey Josh! Love that you are doing the load off measurement! Our industry has long included measurements that are irrelevant to the user. We actually included a “string angle” measurement on the data card for all our new bows. We realize the industry is not doing this yet and there is not a standard way of measuring for it, but we thought we would not measure the whole acute angle of the string at full draw, but rather give the actual angle the archer will feel on their anchor. So basically half of the whole angle at full draw, 30” draw length. What are your thoughts on doing this? Also, you said we have nothing for timing adjustments on the bow. Technically, that is not correct. If the cables aren’t touching the cable stops exactly, simply move the cable stop that isn’t touching until it touches. Both cams will stop at the same time. So there is a timing feature. If you wanna geek out over the fine details, let me know, we can get lost in the weeds real fast ;)
I bought an elite terrain for my first bow . Still using
Love the review. I think the decibel meter is to simple of a measuring device to accurately capture the sound of a bow. It isolates on the loudest sound and then displays that. How does it distinguish between the bow shot and the arrow impacting the target?
thankful they added the pic rail
Great content as always. Lighting seemed a little better as well. Thanks!
Great videos!! I do have a question though, wouldn't the speed increase with less letoff? So if you are testing these bows @ 80% and they test it @ 70% in factory, wouldn't the speed variance you are getting be accounted for?
100%
Yes because the the difference for the highest let off to the lowest letoff is about 3/8” draw length. So to get the bow at 30” DL at high letoff vs low letoff you would need to rotate the mod further around the cam, which is gonna increase the speed. Probably 4-5 fps.
back in the 80s most of the steel cable bows tied off on both sides of the wheel and not the limbs. The wheel didnt take up or let out any. Alpine did have the take up/feed first back in the early 90s. Darton back around 2009 had the DS bows that had the yokes.
Hey on a RH bow , ata should be from right side of the axle to right side of the axle
I think you need to do a “final release “ video where you go back through the evals when you have all the new biws and can shoot them together. Otherwise, i feel like it’s difficult to get a good comparison since you judge bow #1 based on “what?”. Where by the time you get to bow # 4 you are rating it with some bias of the first 3. I don’t even know if I’m making sense here
Instead of measuring everything on the bow, shoot 100 arrows with every bow with same sights and rest and stabilizer at 50 to 80 yards and measure the groups and tell us how it feels and shoots.
Only curious.......should the bow be set to 70# (69.8-70.2#) before any of the measuring? Like ATA, Brace, etc...... If the bow is coming in hot, say 74# from factory, and you have to decrease that down to ±70#, won't that change those measurements? Maybe an ⅛" here, 1/16" there....... Or am I just over-thinking........
You commented that the “draw cycle” is pretty nice. What would be your perfect draw cycle? What 2022 or newer hunting bow has the best draw cycle in your opinion?
So far out of the new reviews, I would really like to try a Darton. No body around here seems to carry them, that I can find.
How’s that tight spot quiver attached to the bow behind your head? Looks good at balancing and reducing weight 7:41
Check if the decibel meter is picking up the sound of the arrow hitting the target. Seems like all the bows are about the same in db
Oh any why measure brace height at the hole instead of grip. That is where you are off by 3/8ths
So on my bow the wheel guard can move without hurting anything correct? Just new to this bow wasn’t sure if it need to be in the press , don’t seem like I should but just wanna double check. I feel like mine should move away from arrow shelf a bit.
Bummed that the bow weight is more than the ethos with a shorter axle to axle and speed is the same with same or more reflex than the ethos. Wish they would’ve just put the RAC system on the Ethos and called it a day.
Really good point
I wish they made a carbon ethos
Elite measure draw length and speed from 80% letoff sp that's why it might be 1/4" long
MFJJ, how do you feel about making your initial review videos just the specs, feel and features, then at the end of the bow launch season scoring them in each category based on how they compare to all the other bows? That way we are comparing this year’s bows to each other and not some “theoretically perfect” bow. Also, can you test riser reflex geometry vs brace height at full draw so this debate can be settled? Pretty sure it’s just measured from the throat of the grip horizontally to the imaginary vertical line between the load off points of the cams, not the axle. It makes sense if you think about what happens when you torque a bow. Where the string comes off the cams is the pivot point and the further away that point is horizontally from the grip the more stable a bow should be at full draw.
Great breakdown.
You need to go back and review the Elite Exalt 35 with the new scoring system AND w/performance mods
When measuring the speed of a bow, is there any value in rating a bow based on the consistency between the shots with the same arrow weight? Wouldn't consistency between shots indicate better design and build quality?
If the bows had been tuned ahead of time.
Others tune get bullet holes ect before testing.
So you get a bunch of same speed numbers and one plus or minus 1 ft out of 3 shots.
My darton ds3800 had the split yokes, not sure that it was the first tho
Release click & Factory tags make a fair amount of noise
Darron had the patent for a long time. That’s why PSE went to the PBTS.
May have missed it but are you taking into account the length of the bow on those weight numbers? Just may opinion as well but don’t think it’s fair to penalize the bow on the weight numbers if the bow is weighing what it’s advertised at.
Do you ever get a chance to shoot a Martin.
not that it matters a whole lot but are you setting and testing all of these at 85% let off? or the factory 90
Axle to axle comment had me cracking up. “Soooooo, shut up”. Hahaha
Like new system, will give better average between bows by breaking up categories.
I think it was mathews when they came out with the halon
What was load out point measurement?
Elite measure there draw length at 80% letoff from what I remember witch wouldn't change the speed much but would probably put that bow spot on in draw length
Can you just make a standard you loose this many points per 1/8 inch you are off or something instead of comparing year to year for brace heights, draw lengths, and atas
I think darton made it and has the patent for the yoke thing
I'm not confident but I think they bought it at some point from Martin. Or atleast an early version
@HawkeyeIK802 this is possible. I'm pretty sure all of Martin's old patents expired. The first I saw the yoke on a binary was darton.
Martin back in 1980 something.. firecat!
Sorry if I missed it, but did you shoot it with the performance mods or comfort mods?
He said performance
Darton used the yoke system first. Rex invented the system if im not mistaken
I believe mfjj slammed several energy drinks before he filmed this. He's ramped up on this one.
Customer just test shot Artus vs. Lift X 29.5. Same heavy arrow. Both 29". Lift X about a Pound more draw.
Artus with a Biscuit and Lift X with QAD. X with monkey tails. Artus with cat whiskers. Artus with about 3/4" more
brace.
X only about 7 fps faster. Should be much more than that. So........ Artus is pretty damn fast. I was standing next
to him shooting. I easily would say the Artus was quieter !!! Lest higher pitch snap noise.
I did set the Artus to 85%. Lift X was as well.
Saying the bow is quieter while also using a fixed rest like a whisker biscuit on one bow, and a drop away on the other is just a flat out lie and misleading. At that point you are comparing the volume of the rest, not the bow. A drop away rest, no matter the brand, will always make noise and a whisker biscuit for the most part does not. Mathews Lift is the quieter bow of the 2. Not sure why the misleading comment on sound. Your speed comparison makes sense though. I’m sure if you went with a lighter arrow you would see more difference between them, as the efficiency of each bow differs.
Like ti see the bow being shot.. instead of the arrow going through the chrono.
Can’t really penalize them on honesty like that over speed because they technically didn’t fluff it. They say “ up to 340” so they didn’t set that speed in stone.
Darton archery would be the first with split yolks.
Does letoff make a difference with the speed?
Elite sends them from the factory set at 90%
Would it make a difference set at 80??
Higher letoff will result in lower speed.
It's like 3 fps or something. Not enough to worry about. It will shorten draw length a tad, so if you don't adjust that back out it will essentially be the same speed give or a take a fps.
I would say Darton or Martin
Come on now I think it’s fair to give them a closer score to darton. You can’t adjust the roller gaurd on darton and you can elite: they both have something the other doesn’t.
Was it the Mathews Chill?
No
Martin
How many people said your Stan clicker is what it sound gauge is reading 😂😅
Ok, this might be a stupid question, but you don't know or learn of you don't ask. Just curious, if the bow was tuned, cam lean ,center shot, all the things you do, will the fps improve, because it is at the most efficient. Just curious about this. Newer to archery, and starting to work on my own equipment. Am I thinking too much into it or could that be a reason some of the bows don't reach their rated fps, besides some lying from the company.
Yes. Being set up properly will make it more efficient and a little faster
Draw length and speed measured at 80% letoff. If you're not going to adjust the bow to the factory specs to check for honesty, then why do the test for a score. Just tell us how you feel and forget the rest.
The weight score should factor in ATA. Not really fair to give a 33 ATA bow a worse score than a 29 ATA.
Exactly, he needs to change the score for weight based on ATA.
@@douglasvaughn9530I disagree because weight should only be judged on how close it is to specified weight from the manufacturer. If you don’t like the weight, look at other bows.
Cam design is a Darton patent that expired this year.
Great review I’m let down by elite too heavy and speed numbers off
Try putting your purse down first.
@ y don’t u just blow me instead fuck boi
@ another keyboard tough guy that’s the trouble with the internet people like you run your mouth and don’t get the punch in the face you really need
I have a long draw length
Thought it was Matthew's was the first
Dimension shouldn t be a numeric point IMO, price, speed, etc should be
We need some new long draw bows for the sasquatches like me….
That did come out with a long draw bow this year that goes out to 32"
@@jackbuendgen389 I know, I just meant across all the brands. More selection. More technology.
Your so funny thanks for the laugh
They need to fire the dude coming up with these bow names
lol I like it, but my name is art
You honesty category doesn't make sense, you're double counting points. You could have two bows that have identical numbers but because the marketing team exaggerated ones bows numbers more then the other, it would be categorized as a "worse" bow by your numbering system even though they have the same numbers. I understand lying about numbers is annoying but it doesn't technically make a bow worse.
No way this scores 4 points higher than the Mach 33 😂
He's not a fan of PSE it seems
That's why the score thing is stupid. Just give a review and tell us what you think. No way anyone should buy bows based on these scores. People need to go shoot the bows they are interested in and make their own decision. This scoring system is a joke at best.
@@douglasvaughn9530he literally tells everyone to go shoot them at a local shop and try them for yourself. Y’all keyboard warriors are ridiculous.
I think $1300 is way too much! $900 tops
Agreed. The darton consequence is a better value STILL! It just doesn't have as many features.
And the consequence is shooting the same speeds with perf mods but with 7.5" BH.
Mathew’s patten expired
Only does weight to give Mathews more points.
MFJJ I think your being fare on how u r doing the test.U will always have haters in archery world
Not impressed with Elite’s bows so far 🙂↔️
Have you shot one?
@@tjj440 no. But their specs are unimpressive.
@@paulheberling2750 it shoots longer than it measures
@@tjj440 how do we know that?
@@paulheberling2750 by shooting it.