Shooting Below Native ISO - Good Idea or Bad?
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
- Testing and discussing the effects of shooting below the native ISO of your camera in video. How is dynamic range, noise, and image quality altered?
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Table of Contents:
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0:00 - The Question
0:59 - Dynamic Range
4:41 - Zebras & Clipping Point
6:24 - Test Scene (ETTR)
8:20 - Highlights/Shadows
10:01 - Test Scene (Neutral)
10:36 - Noise Comparison
12:00 - Conclusion
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#iso #tutorial #camera - Наука та технологія
This is the type of content I live for on this channel:
the most random, in depth thing that no one else will ever probably look into but yet super helpful/important to know
& honest cereal reviews are great too :D
Canon shooter here: we can go below native ISO, it shows a little “L” next to the ISO. I’ve experienced the same thing, I’ll lose stops in the highlights. But, if my scene doesn’t have any bright highlights, or is naturally a darker scene (night shot, moodier, or whatever) then purposely going below native definitely gives cleaner images on the R5. The C70 doesn’t make as a big of a difference because the DGO is pretty good at keeping clean shadows anyhow. This was all just by eye though, so I’m thankful for your testing with some real equipment and science!
Thanks for chiming in. Great comment!
You can do it two ways.. lowering iso bellow native, lets say to 400 = you lose 1 highlight stop but gain 1 shadow stop thx to lower noise OR just simply keep 800 iso and expose 1 stop beyond, you lose that 1 stop again, but gain more light = less noise = 1 shadow stop more... same result. You will always have that lets say 12 stops no matter what ISO you go..
But one more thing I found last week and its pretty crazy..
I shot one scene with 800 iso and then the same scene with 10 000 ISO, when I brought down the 10 000 ISO footage to 800 ISO exposure level.. guess what.. the 10K one was MUCH cleaner!!! WHAT THE HELL??? So I can even use ISO for ETTR?!? Can you explain @Gerald Undone ?
Much love 〽
@@getmarked really? on what camera did you do it, any references?
@@hannestell canon r6. I would love to post it somewhere. Yeah. Its crazy
“I brought down the 10,000 ISO footage to 800 ISO exposure level”
Can you say that in a different way? I don’t understand what you mean. Are you saying when you adjusted exposure in your editing program? How do you know you brought it down to 800 ISO? Did you lower exposer by 3.67?
Solid explanation dude! That’s super interesting about the cleaner shadows at the “extended”settings
You’ve been a big part of my camera journey and thank you! I find myself back to your channel when caught with technical questions in the middle of the night.
You called?
Haha. Oh that's right, I teased you for shooting below native during your bag tour, didn't I? 🤓💜
@@geraldundone I still remember it vividly🥲
I cant really find info in the onlije manual of a7iv. Sony doesnt talk about it but many people on youtube are talking about dual iso and stuff
Gerald I have learned so much from your videos. But sometimes im confused as to what I should pay attention to and what I shouldnt as a novice. You should make a videography 101 course for sony cameras
This is great. I feel like when I am in my shop filming I have started going below native for my last couple of video and felt like I was giving something up, but now I know in the nice controlled environment it is totally worth it and actually simplifies my filming a lot.
My understanding from the photography standpoint is this:
The Native ISO (100 for photo) gives you regular Highlights and Shadows.
If you go below native in the extended Range you clip your Highlights MUCH quicker but you gain clean shadows.
Basically "shifting" your dynamic range to allow heavier shadow recovery if needed with the compromise of clipping highlights way sooner.
Yes, this is generally the case. If your scene doesn’t have bright highlights you want to preserve lowering ISO is a perfectly fine method to achieve desired exposure if you want to do it in camera. For creative control overexposing the scene and then correcting in post will always produce cleaner results in the shadows. But honestly, most pro level cameras delivery plenty of shadow details these days.
This answers so many questions for me. I would just drop below native whenever it was too bright and it was driving me crazy trying to figure out why some shots had a lower white point. I have always appreciated your videos, but this one got me to subscribe to your channel.
Great video, I was always curious about this. You answer all my questions mate, amazing
Spot on - I always remember: the native and above require you to give the camera less light, preserving the highlights; and the below-natives make you give the camera more light, cleaning up the shadows. Both useful at the right time--thanks for the tests!
great tip, thanks !
Thanks! This was very helpful. Most people just like to repeat what they hear, but it's really nice when someone actually takes the time to study and test what happens, thanks for sharing!
Always fascinating. Thanks for sharing Gerald!
Super appreciate the time and effort you put into these tests and illustrating them to those who care. This channel really deserves more subs than some others. Keep it up Gerald!
I’ve been waiting for you to do this video for years. I’ve always noticed (anecdotally) that I was losing dynamic range, but I never knew how much I was losing. So I often stop down my aperture and raise my iso. Obviously there are certain situations where I want shallow depth of field but for the most part I can get away with stopping down the aperture.
Thanks so much for your in-depth tests! I was just wondering this very topic this week!
Now i know below native i don't recover highlights! Less dynamic range in the highlights but less noise in the shadows.
I've always wondered about this! Thank you Gerald!
This was really educational, and It was great you gave a real scenario example of when you might use it right after all the chart and tech info!
Thanks for this video! 👏🏼👏🏼
"If you turn down the ISO below a native ISO, you don't recover highlights." Learned something new today - thank you!
I love how you speak to your audience :) Thank you for figuring this out/sharing for us! :D
Thanks for doing this test for us, another useful bit of knowledge to have in the toolkit while shooting!
Dude, you are a freaking genius. I have no idea how you get this nerdy on this stuff and make it clear to us. Thanks Gerald!!
literally yesterday I dived deep into this topic as it was at the back of my head for super long.. And today, boom, your video with perfect explanation. Thanks a lot! Great work as always 🙌
I've always wondered about this. Thanks for covering this Gerald!
Same. My OCD thanks you, Gerald.
This is awesome. Ive been needing this video. I think about it all the time.
Gerald - you are so technically knowledgable - it is a pleasure to listen to your explanations. Thanks for all the hard work :)
Damn, you are extremely thorough! What a great video. I was recently in Ghana and was afraid of my footage because I had to shoot almost everything at way lower ISO. Footage was fine, and this video confirmed it. Thanks Gerald!
Thank you for covering this! Especially in your testing first way.
And as always, AMAZING! Thanks for the thorough explanation!
I've been wondering this question for so long! Thanks for the video GU !
THANK YOU
Thank you! Love this kind of videos!
Loved this! You are an amazing source of knowledge Gerald. 😊
Another example of why you are the best at what you do! I am a run and gun event shooter and have always defaulted to just drop ISO below when I had too...and never really noticed a difference...now I know why. Thank you!
Great explanation on the use cases!
Fantastic explanation and demonstration. Thank you Gerald! Intuitively, I figured you’d lose highlight stops. But I was completely unaware that she shadows actually clean up. So I’ll definitely keep that in mind. 😊
This was an amazing video, very in-depth and I am a sucker for going as low as possible but not realizing im looing in DR. Thank you and it makes me reconsider how I shoot.
I’ve always wondered this. Thanks for covering it. Very interesting and useful to know.
Great video. Super helpful! Merry xmas.
Thanks for explaining all this as well as you did and then wrapping up the end. It useful. Thanks!
This is insightful, thanks Gerald. I like this video format also, casual and experimental.
Fascinating and educational. Thanks much for posting !
Thank you, I've always wondered about this! (Btw, I would KILL for a video like this explaining superwhites and what's the point of having them and how are you supposed to use them, and also if the 16-255 RGB range that some cameras have has anything to do with that)
Is for HDR
Super-whites and sub-blacks (and all of their other names) can be great at times. I've once had a very underexposed video but was able to save it because there was that little bit of extra information in the 0-63 range that showed as black but actually had recoverable detail. That was on my Fuji X-T3 and X-T4 in FLog.
Generally, I just keep the files in full data-level(0-1023) instead of video data-level (64-959) when editing or re-encoding camera source files. For delivery I chose video data-level as that's the norm.
@@DesertCookie Do you talk about RAW or 10bit or ALL-Intra or what those numbers (0-1023 and 64-959) means, and where to set it in camera?
like Shooting into RAW (into atomos/odyssey recorder with sony cam) because i can restore some stops in edit later, if i miss exposed shot and its overexposed or underexposed.
Always wondered how it looks. Thanks for the video!
This was a very interesting breakdown. Nice job as always!
Super Helpful, thank you!
Thanks for the excellent explanation.
Nicely done! It’s great having the information. I use the a1 and a7C and haven’t had any issues with losing highlights or shadow details. Setting the zebras and understanding what exposure settings to use and when is the first step. The amount of dynamic range on these sensors is really impressive. Unless someone is really lost on proper exposure techniques, I don’t understand how they would have issues with clipping highlights. I guess it’s more about the possibilities than a normal issue. Thankfully the base ISO on the a1 is 100.
I remember the days of bracketing to make sure you got the image. There’s really no reason for that anymore except maybe a rare situation. These cameras are absolutely amazing.
Just in time to start learning how to use my new camera. Amazing timing Gerald!!
honestly such a fantastic video, so clearly explained
Very helpful, and very interesting. Thanks, Gerald
I’m a self thought videographer and I use A7S 3… just wanted to say you’re a wizard and I love your videos. This was very helpful!
Excellent evaluation. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting for Us!
Thanks Gerald for this! I was wondering that, but of course never tested it, so this helps a lot 💪
Thank you! This tips are GOLD!
Thanks for testing this Gerald! This is super helpful!
Good info. Thank you!
I absolutely love the technical breakdown in great detail. The most difficult part for me is... I shoot run and gun most of the time, it would be impossible to maintain the proper adjus😊tments while filming live action.
Craziest thing - At 10:34am I was doing some rather unscientific tests with shooting below the Native ISO of 800 on my Canon R7 with Clog3 and Cinema Gamut... Just happy to know that I'm not the only person who lie's awake at night pondering these important questions.. 😂
LOVE your channel, brother.. Cheers from Milton, Ontario..
I also found on my R6 that if you push exposure to the right with ISO and lowering exposure in post, you get much cleaner video. What I am saying is that I shot same scene with 800 ISO and 10 000 ISO, I brought back down the 10 000 ISO one in post and it was much more or more like noise free video.. I really dont know what is going on. But try for yourself.
Interesting !!!! Thanks Gerald
THIS is the specific type of content I am looking for... ❤
This is a very educational video. At 63, I still learned something, Well Done, Gerald!
36, saluting this attitude. 😄❤️
The interesting thing with the creative world is that there's endless knowledge. If you even thing you've learned it all - you 're out.
Thank you for making this video! I have been wondering about this recently and was opening there would be an undone breakdown of it. 🙏🏽
Thank you! ❤
Thank you for showing the differences in detail.
i had no idea. thank you for this video!!!
As an a7siii shooter I really appreciate you taking the time to figure this out for us!
I always wondered and heard it was BADDDD hahah but I never tested it.
Thanks for doing all the hard work!
You’re the best!
Thank you!!
I’ve been curious about this for years. Been keeping it at base/native to play it safe 😅
Great video 🙏🏽
Very useful. Thanks.
Great video. This is exactly how the BMPCC cameras work when you shoot in BRAW. Great info.
perfect way to keep your shutter to 180 degree if your ND is not strong enough on bright lenses. Thanks for sharing Gerald!
Wow you really sent it on this! Thanks
It always helps Gerald 😄
well, I am an old film and paper guy, so when I come across this, it surprises me that anyone has broken it down to this point. I remember Ansel Adams and his Zone System analysis, and pushing and pulling film to gain control of contrast and detail in the shadows and highlights.Digital has far more latitude, but there are some similarities. Ansel Adams had hoped to live long enough to see the things that you are talking about, but he only saw the beginnings of the digital revolution. But anyway, this is really good work!
Awesome findings!
I have a quick video for you today and it's 15 minutes.
I love you Gerald
We Need Gerald Always!!!! It was Awesome Meeting you in New York Sony Creative Space!!!!!!
Just the video i wanted, u're the man
I struggled for a long time to actually understand how ISO really works, this video really helped thank you :)
Such a difficult concept to explain 😂
As always you handle it with meticulous ease! Thanks
Was just having this debate last week. Super helpful as always sir
Thanks. That makes sense.
Thanks for this, really interesting result! Guess I’ll put more thought into it instead of defaulting to shooting as low ISO as possible🎉
Thanks dude!!
I'm a newbie to photography (1 year now I own the Sony A7IV) - Even if I'm not understanding the subject in its full extension: In any case, it's still interesting to watch your "lessons" - watching you share your experiences for us to refer to!
Awesome video thank you!
Thanks!
I’ve always shot at base or higher, so it’s good to know that in a pinch I could go down to the extended ISO range won’t be as terrible as I had been told.
Brilliant! I've been avoiding anything below 640 ISO on my a7siii. Thanks for explaining exactly what happens when you use those lower ISO settings.
Nice cable. Thank You
This is awesome video!
Amazing channel man, keep up the great work! Love your analysis! Super educational for curious and smart people :) I wonder if that exact thing would apply to other brands, like my fuji XH2s for example?
That is a very interesting result. I just tried to avoid it so far since I was not quite sure what exactly I was trading or giving up. Basically this means that in a controlled home scene you might as well just shoot with the low iso value anyways since you have sufficient controlled light, don't need the extra noisy DR stops anyways and can lower the background noise even further.
It's basically EI, using lower ISO means lower EI baked into the image. The analog gain remains same at native when shooting at lower ISO. You compensate for lower ISO's darker image by opening iris and lowering shutter, resulting an overexposed image but already corrected that overexposure for you when recorded, so it may have better shadow information (lower noise) but less highlight information (clipping faster).
Yeah, I had a similar thought too, but with the MLUT baked, yeah.
@@geraldundoneyou’re baking the mluts exposure In but not the lut itself. Which in a way is sortof more convenient for post. Because if you’re shooting at EI 200 while at the base 640 or 800 depending which camera you’re using, the benefit to using the iso way is that when you get to post you don’t have to manually bring down the exposure. Whereas with the ei version, your shot will look two stops too bright, which you just manually bring down in post. I don’t really see the benefit there as you’re getting the same benefit with both and the same trade off in the highlights using either method. Seems like ei might just be giving you more work in post for the same effect on your image. Is there any real benefit to using ei then?
Why I didnt know this earlier! 😭😭
@jonathanmasters2178 - That's a good point and an interesting idea. I believe the point and benefit of EI in those circumstances is consistency. Increasing/decreasing gain can impact saturation, white balance, luminance of practicals, etc. So when you hand footage off to the colorist, the results are more consistent with a constant EI and that skilled professional can adjust exposure as needed without worrying about those other changes I mentioned.
@@jonathanmasters2178 exactly what I do.. I rather overexpose and lose stops rather than lowering clipping point with lower ISO.. so I dont have to bring clipping point back to 100 IRE in post.. right?
Thank you Gerald, very useful, you make Tech science and photo explain ed in a unbiased way.😊
Great insight!
Thanks again...
and again...
and again...
for the amount of work you do for the community.
That's so useful to have a neutral point of view, based on experiments, rather than feelings or marketing (which can be usefull too).
Well done, ty.
Dr. Undone instructional class.
That is useful information. I was always scared, because even if I didn't see much difference in my testing, I figured as soon as I tried to use it while shooting for a client it would wreck me somehow. So this is great knowing exactly how it works. Thank you for putting the time in!
(Long ass reply here)..
I guarantee you, your client cares zero about your ISO, unless they themselves are photographers/judges. The client, unless they have the technical know-how, just want to know that whatever they asked you to photograph, looks good. That's it. And it needs to look good at first glance. If you can pass the first glance test, that's it, everything else (technically) is just improving your product (but has nothing that the client will care for).
In fact, when your client is trying to make a decision between you and someone else, they won't be thinking, "this image has more/less white dots". They don't even know to look for that. They are going to first think about the purpose of the photo/product and ask themselves, can this photographer convey this purpose or give me what I want (by looking at your portfolio)?
I find all this technical detail, and care, is much ado about nothing. Hardly any of this makes or breaks a photo, unless at drastic degrees (eg: very high ISO). The important things that make a photo great is not in the scientific details (I say this as someone with a major in General Physics and in Computer Science...science is my business, but my thoughts come from the artistic side of me as someone born to parents who are painters, sculptor and designers).
Again, clients want to know, "can this photographer give me what I want?". 10/10 times what they want is a specific look and feel, not technical greatness. I've seen some shitting photos, with shitty retouching (I hate retouching at least the majority I've seen outside the fashion industry), and the client is just goo-goo gaa-gaa over it. Because they aren't seeing it from a photographers eyes, and that's what we need to understand.
Improve your craft (artistic creativity) but don't get bogged down in the technicalities. Use the technicalities to exploit towards your creativity.
@@thecsciworker291 yup
Leveraging one's technical knowledge to benefit what a client wants and expects is important, i.e., knowing about the relevant techniques, gear selection and usage and artistry are a synergistic package. I do agree that most clients are simply interested in results that support their needs, thus usually best to avoid offering up unasked for techie talk with them unless they ask a question about such, and then carefully and briefly titrate one's reply.