Mercedes W123 - more fuel system shenanigans
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Special thanks to Chris Shergold who sent some incredibly useful manuals over to show what we needed to do.
So the non starting Mercedes 230E W123 was bothering regular viewer 'The Fake Russian' - an ex mechanic who thought he'd spotted why the old Merc wouldn't fire, so he came down to see if we could get it going.
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Fuel Accumulator is only to hold pressure in the lines when the engine is hot. To avoid vaporisation in the system. To make starting easier on a hot engine. It consists of a diaphragm with a spring in the low pressure side which the fuel pump compresses. When the engine is stopped. The spring presses the diaphragm back , keeping pressure in the lines. Eventually pressure is depleted . The cold start valve takes over on a cold engine.
So I do not think it is your problem. Mine has not worked for a while, but car starts up first thing when cold. I turn the key on and off a few times when hot, this pumps the fuel back up, before I hit the starter. To test. Attach a bike pump to inlet and pump up whilst holding it under water. If bubbles come out of the outlet, it is R/S. I presume the small brass mesh filter on the inlet of the fuel distributor is not gummed up? It is the size of a match head.
Matt, I've been looking forward to another W123 video. A shame it isn't running. It is worth having a go at cleaning the accumulator. Carb cleaner is a bit better than brake cleaner. You're so close to getting it running and all the grief will be worth it in the end. The W123 is the best car Mercedes made. Don't give up on it. I'm sure you could pick Kent's brains somehow.
The simple solution is just buy a GIANT can of easy start and run the car on that!
More Andy in your vids please! Alhtough it's entertaining to watch you tinkering on your own..
Oh thank you dude, although I'm not sure that Matt is quite ready for more me 😲
Hi Matt,what a awkward car LOL, watching this I was hoping things being fixed it would start, bugger,fingers crossed it's the regulator what's causing the issue, great video.
Hmmm, very strange, can't understand why battering the metering head with a brick hammer didn't do the trick!!
Driving an old Audi 5 Cylinder from the 80ies ... Damn I exactly know the pain and joy this fuel system can generate :) Every Spring is a Moment of Angst. Will it run and will it run well? :)
2:22 Randomly twiddling the idle mixture screw.. nothing like amateurs guessing. You're not going to get anywhere with this without measuring the fuel pressures and understanding how k-jet works. Sorry the truth probably hurts.
That ungreatful motor car doesn't seem to appreciate all the effort you chaps have put in! Great shame but well done for all that.
Hope you get old lady started again
Don’t waste anymore money on it. It’s not worth it! It must be soul destroying for you, bite the bullet and break it up for parts.
No, its so close now it has to work
Beep. Beep. Beep.
Thanks for a lovely day, sorry we couldn't get it started but we tried! And sorry for the swearing, (bleeped out), as I did promise to behave myself hahaha.
@Lime Pringles True and thanks for the kind words *BUT* I should have made the phone calls and done my research first. I'm now convinced it's the fuel actuator/valve/regulator that's not opening and closing to deliver the fuel pressure to the injectors, (though they may need a good clean out now given the gunk in No1 injector and its feed pipe), which is why it's a non-starter. I reckon 2 days and a complete overhaul of the fuel system, (filer, pump and pipes cleaned), and this car may just start. It's pure fuel starvation stopping it starting.
These K-Jets are very sensitive to fuel pressure. As I recall that pressure is set and maintained by a regulator in the return line (and can be adjusted.) Someone said something in an earlier video about relays and I think the reason for that was the fuel pumps in these often deliver low pressure due to an electrical issue but I can't recall what that fault is.
Either way easy to ascertain if its the pump by checking fuel pressure which needs to be over 3 bar to actuate the injector system.
You did a great job! 🙂
@@thomas316 I really don't think it's the fuel pump as it's new. You're right about them being pressure sensitive though and I honestly think the gate isn't closing on the regulator to give it enough fuel pressure to deliver fuel to the cylinders. I did take a pressure tester with me but we never used it
I would think it's the timing of the fuel pump that is off. Pretty common on this type of system after they have been apart, especially if there was some issue with the drive belt for the diesel pump.
@@rimmersbryggeri Ermm no, it's an electric pump that fires up as soon as they key is turned and the regulation of the fuel, (fuel pressure and delivery), it because of the accumulator/actuator opening and closing to divert fuel to the tank on the return or divert it to the injectors under pressure.
Someone helping out gives you the enthusiasm to carry on when you're at a low ebb. There is something small stopping this running and you are methodically getting there.
I know this isn't much help but from what little experience I've had with the fuel injection systems on the W123 series, every part has to be in good operating condition for the thing to work. My 280E was a bit finicky until I replaced all the injectors and fitted a good used metering unit. Then it worked pretty well. If you haven't already, check out Kent Bergsma over at mercedessource channel. He is a mine of info on anything that is old Merc. Good luck with it. I'm sure It'll be worth it in the end .
I watch Kent's videos, and he is very good with repairing Mercedes-Benz vehicles.
Oh, Mr Richardson! You had me on my edge of the seat once again... Will there ever be a successful conclusion to the nail-biting W123 saga?
If we live long enough!
@@furiousdriving, we shall indeed live long enough to see it, sir! I have faith.
This is all the stuff that you never see on the TV shows. Hope its just the accumulator... :)
Don't give up,W123 must start!
Is it a good idea to smoke whilst working on a high pressure fuel injection system? I had a 280se which also turned into an aquarium every time it rained. Eventually I could see the road through the floor pan. Good luck with the gremlins.
Almost forgot to mention, i had an 87 Audi !00 with Jetronic. On cold days it would lose all power after coasting,followed by a monster wheelspin as the power came back suddenly! Turned out it had an overrun cutoff valve which was sticky and was taking it's time to close.This valve worked by breaking manifold vacuum to the sensor plate while the car was coasting and foot off the gas, basically all fuelling cut off in this condition. I don't know if your Merc has this but if it does it might be worth a look.
Ahhhh, K Jet... I know mine kinda works (volvo 240) but needs a rebuilt
Reminds me of many hours spent stripping and reassembling the twin carbs on my 1960 Singer Gazelle with new gaskets, supplemented with red liquid gasket. I used it liberally, but petrol still leaked. A filthy thankless job.
I don’t have the time, patience, or stamina anymore. I like my 21st century Skoda Octavia which starts first time and never breaks down. Happy days.
I my experience K Jetronic can be a pig especially after being left standing! Time to do some cost benefit analysis!
They are very reliable if they are used regularly but let it sit for a long time and you will probably begin having problems.
Or if like he says at 7:00, if somebody who doesn't understand K-Jetronic has been messing around with it!
Im in quite deep now, I could probably break it and get most back but that would be disappointing
Mine was sitting 2 years... pain in the ass.
@@leongailberger7676 Yup sitting for 2 years is sure to cause problems.
Like anything mechanical it needs use to keep it working.
@@FirstOnRaceDayCapri2904 yeah it is still starting and running but it sometimes only runs on 5cylinders.... because of old crusty fuel. So after the winter i will put gasoline 100 octane in it with a additive and then I'm going to drive all day on the german autobahn
This was a thoroughly enjoyable video. Thanks for sharing this interesting journey.
You WILL Crack it. Hang in there
Your too close now Matt to give up! The Accumulator maintains pressure so when you walk away from you car it will have the pressure to just fire up again ;)
I was going to suggest a great place I bought used spares for for years in Gloucester but sadly it looks like they have now gone :(
Try the accumulator then if that doesnt work try and track down the whole kit carboodle bosche system from a running car.
You Wife might not be too pleased but have you thought of a good running basket case as a spares car?
Might be cheaper in the long run?
Jo
Ahhh now what I've found is that the fuel accumulator/actuator/valve prevents the flow of fuel back to the tank to pressure the injectors then when the car fires it opens so excess fuel pumped up is returned to the tank. Once the car starts the engine maintains the pressure mechanically because there's no ECU involved. I've also found I was partly right in the respect that after the exhaust stroke, the vacuum of the down stroke draws the fuel into the cylinder maintaining the right amount of pressure so the engine won't over run.
I'm a bit outclassed when it comes to Mercs (I know my place!) 😜
hahahha adjusting fuel system whilst holding cigar over it......no chance of any ash falling in then
Likeable non affected presentation. A completely different approach to me though. I used to get the haynes manual and the factory one if I could then strip down and check the lot, renew the rubbers, rebuild the carbs, take the head off redo the valves, shim parts of it and so on then I know it is going to drive.
7:00 made me laugh when Andy says "looks like someone's been passing about with it"... yes it's you mate. You clearly have no idea how it works.
ive been having the same with a 1978 280ce fricking cars giving me the royal ache
Big respect for keeping goin with that old Merc I'm certain it's day will come and it will all be worth it don't give up!!!!
I thought your friend holding the cigar and then cigarette over the engine when working on the fuel system didn't seem a great idea.
This is Andy's wife. I'm sorry to inform you all that The Fake Russian passed away. RIP 1967-2020
Hello Sue, Im so sorry to hear that. My most sincere condolences to you and the rest of the family
Check the MercedesSource YT channel for help
I don't think the car is asking to be scrapped. I think it is depending on you to bring it back to life and it will be thankful. That's just too optimistic isn't it :-) Cheers
Hopefully nearly there..hopefully!
I have never worked on one so couldn't give you any advice. Looking forward to next video. I hope your successful with it buddy. 👌👍👍
Com on guys !!!!
Live that carb/brake cleaner alone , and use some diesel fuel mixed with petrol fuel. Dip the parts into this mix and let it soke fir one hour. Then grab a small plastic brush and clean everything properly. If you cannot do it , I'll take that car and start it in 2 hours. Good luck!
Now we know why it was abandoned in a barn all this years , the previous owner probably had enough trying to figure out why it refuses to start...
It probably ran when parked...its the old fuel and time that killed it
I made a similar mistake once, buying used Audi 80 (2.0 16V) with K (or KE, don't remember exactly) Jetronic. It was running, but it was incredibly thirsty and sluggish, and also had a tendency to stall when cold (usually in the middle of a busy crossroads). Nobody was able to fix it, so I got rid of that car ASAP and never looked back.
Which field Matt? The amount of money you have spent would justify an auction.....I'll start it at £5 and wait to be outbid.
Seriously though gutted for you and have got everything crossed a "clean" will miraculously work.
Any running better than nothin at all....great quote! Away from the standstill, towards the solution! I like that brother! Recognise my approach, learnin every second with these old dinosaurs😎⚓️
Why was Andy’s face kept being blocked out?
He didnt want to be on camera
Fuel regulator is gone Oh was typing that and you said it at the end ok.. will thats the problem anyways
Don’t adjust that like that
Well, it may not have delivered any form of definite, positive conclusion, but the exercise has given you new directions to go in, even if they are expensive ones. I would suggest filling the accumulator with something like carb cleaner and leaving it to sit overnight as that ;may, hopefully, dissolve the varnished fuel and inevitable rusty sludge that has accumulated in it over the last 35 years. I have seen people use things like cellulose thinners or panel wipe on heavily varnished fuel system parts so that could be another option, and probably a cheaper one...
Awesome. I have a few W123s I am currently restoring
The South African solution would be to change the fuel injection system and inlet manifold for a carburettor and manifold with an electric Facet fuel pump :)
I had a Skoda 110R Coupe and on the way home it cut out and refused to start over the next 2 days I went through everything. Totally stripped carb apart 3 times cleaned it, replaced all ignition bits even though had a good spark, checked timing, check compression and even adjusted the tappets in desperation. Day 3 I'm at my wits end with no idea's left other than to lay into it with a sledge hammer and set fire to it. So it was the afternoon before I decided to take yet another look and without doing anything turned the key and it fired up straight away and run perfectly. What the hell the problem was I had no idea so I sold it.
Maybe there is air in the fuel lines before the fuel injectors?
I know with the 300sd if you take the fuel lines off that connects to the fuel injectors that you have to prime the fuel lines and crank it a couples times with the fuel lines before the injectors cracked open until they squirt fuel, indicating that you have gotten all the air out of the fuel line and then you tighten them up on to the fuel injector.
Get a donor car..for the price of metering unit... Problem solve..and you can make money selling the parts as well
I think this might wind as the donor in that situation...or have a pair of donors...
,🤔🤔🤔
I did think we would see this old girl fire up , I did laugh at the end as you was at the back of the car talking with a voice only coming from the car . Let’s hope next time she will fire up
You're so resilient! I probably would have dropped the spanner on this months ago...
The odd thing is that tinkering on a car long enough might qualify one to do better on future projects - and plunge oneself into even worse trouble...
Much as though I enjoy your vids - don't!
That's a brave man right there, pissing around with the fuel system with a lit cigar in one hand!
Best of luck if the car was a patient in hospital the doctors would their best to keep alive even though it's old
What's the fuel pressure like? It takes a lot of pressure to actuate the injectors (45psi) so if the pressure is low you won't be able to push fuel through the injectors.
A w126 V8 with a K-jetronic needs 75psi, if not or not close enough like 50psi the distributer sinds it's just right back to the fuel tank. Also happens on the KE-jetronic
@@lodewijkvan96 You sure about that? I got a little pamphlet with my fuel pressure checker and it said Merc was 29 to 30 psi .......... But then that could be for cars with an ECU controlling the fuel pressure and injectors. This one might need more because it's purely mechanical fuel injection.
@@TheFakeRussian Well now i'm not sure anymore haha, i'm sure about the system that it sends it back if the pressure is to low.
I'm going to look it up in my notes when I get home. Will let you know :)!
@@lodewijkvan96 My understanding is the fuel pressure accumulator gate closes to divert fuel and fuel pressure up to the distributor and down to the injectors and when it's at level the gate opens allowing unused fuel to return to the tank with the engine creating it's own vacuum and pressure to maintain the engine running. Now I could be wrong and shall await your looking at your notes :)
@@TheFakeRussian I looked in my notes and rememberd it all wrong haha. You're right when the pressure is all good than the left over fuel is send back to the accumulator.
In going pressure should be around 75-80psi, that I'm sure about, it's been a while since I last did those tests.
But my girlfriend and I bought her a SE500 from 1983 so will do this test once again :)
Lovely Jubbly, but I feel your pain matey.
suggest checking fuel pressure. Injectors need a fair amount of pressure to fire. Also, did you ever do a compression check on the motor?
Compression checked ages ago, I need a pressure tester but think its another Bosch part thats failed
You’ve got patience that’s for sure, hope you get sorted .
theres nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes
When working on a w123 or w126 it helps so much to open the hood all the way. It would make it so much easier if y'all opened the hood the rest of the way. There are little tabs on the hinges that need to be released. Lower the hood some and push the tab on the driver's side and raise the hood as much as possible. Then push the tab on the passenger side without lowering the hood. Then the hood can be raised all the way to the vertical service position.
Edit:
Whoops. I'm American and the driver's side is on the opposite side. The first tab is on the left side of the car. Release them from left to right.
This is up as far as it wasnt to go, Ive pushed it into service but it wont go vertical and Im not going to force it!
Did you ever get it started? My theory is that Control pressure is too high.
not yet, waiting to book a specialist to look at it
@@furiousdriving ua-cam.com/video/a4fJAfXYxWk/v-deo.html
@@furiousdriving facebook.com/groups/KJetronic/
K-Jetronic does not tolerate at all somebody who doesn't know what they're doing messing around with it.
If you have fuel getting everywhere else but not the injectors, that could mean that there is fuel pressure, but it's too low, the injectors have a set opening pressure and will not open if there is not enough pressure in the system.
The warmup regulator is what controls this, it has a bimetallic heating element inside, and a plug through which it recieves electricity, which varies the fuel pressure ( known as control pressure ) , there are small shims inside that are either removed or addded to vary this fuel pressure although it does come pre-set from the factory.
The accumulator has two functions, one is maintaining the fuel pressure for 20 minutes after the engine has been shut down to prevent vapour-lock, and another is to smooth out the pulses from the fuel pump to create a smooth constant pressure and flow to the metering unit.
With that being said though that metering unit sure looks like it's been messed with far to many times and is probably knackered, but do check the warmup regulator and verify the control pressures both cold and hot, ( you will need a fuel pressure gauge ) and looking up on the internet what is the correct cold and hot control pressure for the particular model.
And, whenever the metering unit is taken apart, new seals and gaskets should be fitted.
Contact KMI Petrol Injection Engineers LTD, they are real genuine experts on K-Jetronic!
The warm up regulator is also suspect, Ill be looking at that and the regulator before I drop £500 on a used metering unit!
I had a quote from them to rebuild the distributor, they look helpful
Replace the fuel distributor .replace the warm up Regulator. With rebuilt units.
Yes chuck a £1000 on 2 parts without confirming that theyre faulty. What a dumb suggestion.
Nice Cuban cigar
Bulgarian full coroner not Cuban :)
Matt,there is a book titled -Bosch Fuel Injection@Engine Management by Charles O Probst,SAE. It is quite in depth and covers a lot of basic settings including the sensor plate height basic settings. I have had this book for years on my bookshelf, message me back if you would like it and I will post it to you as a Christmas gift,cheers Neil.
Hi Neil, thanks for the offer, I have that (or something very similar) as a PDF, we read a lot about the set up but it didnt mention what to do if turning the adjuster doesnt adjust anything!
@@furiousdriving No worries,looks like you are going to have to track down a good used part,keep at it!
I bet you it is the accumulator, the one part you haven't changed, is the heart of the problem. As another had mentioned, check out Mercedessource here on UA-cam (he is Washington, many followers, like myself, are from all over the world 🗺), a font of information. Check his website as well. Best of luck 🤞!
Ive watched a lot of his and looked at his parts. Wish he was local to me...
@@furiousdriving I know some of his followers on UA-cam are in the UK 🇬🇧 like yourself. And his videos are for those like yourself who are not afraid to works on their classic Mercedes-Benz. I know he says that you should have a spare Mercedes-Benz to cull parts off of. That, or look at what we call a "junkyard", one that sells parts from junked vehicles.
good thing i read the comments.
This is getting really exciting :) really love this ! It's like watching a film series. You should give the Merc a name, just like Digby :)))
Its just the Barn Find Benz for now, but maybe that would do it..then I could put it on a T Shirt for summer and wear it when Im driving it!
@@furiousdriving you could call it Barney :)))) Stubborn Barney
Finally a video~
Heya a good tip if you havent checked already, mercedessource here on youtube, he is an expert of mercedes w123 and older! He do also have a webshop with parts etc.
I love that channel, I wish he was in the same country as Kent would have this car running in no time
furiousdriving i get that! Best of luck to you, hope you get her running soon!
What’s face blanked out for? 🤣
He didnt want to be on camera!
Oh right haha thought he had his own channel 😝 I still have high hopes for this car, binged the full series over 2 days 😁 loving the Volvo stuff as well keep the videos coming mate. Are you going to be at PC resto this month?
Mark C. He does, but never goes on screen! I’ve found someone local with dealership experience of these now so there’s a good chance of it running now (once the Volvo is sorted!)
I’m not sure yet, depends on my and my wife’s work and if PC mind people blogging there
Ah no worries, was gonna come and say hello if you were on the Y register or something 😁 Hopefully see you there!
That adjusted screw is spring loaded! you need to press in to engage the screw. I'll bet there was nothing wrong with that screw
I think the advice your getting is incorrect. The air plate controls the fuel flow through the fuel distributor. turn in that adjusting screw 1/2 turn (press fully in to engage it) at a time until you get fuel out of the injectors.
I think the advice your getting is incorrect. The air plate controls the fuel flow through the fuel distributor. keep turning in the adjusting screw 1/2 a turn at a time until you get fuel from the injectors. also please insure the connection between the fuel metering unit and intake manifold is correct. I have seen incorrectly fitted units leak air around the rubber connection and leak air so it will never start if that's the case
It wasnt engaging even when pushed in, think the thread has gone on it, its only aluminium after all
Matt, I am no expert but should you have a lighted cigar around gasoline and fumes? Otherwise great video!
Its harder to ignite than you'd think. I dont smoke but Andy says he did that for 30 years in his garage!
@@furiousdriving my question was not to ridicule but from an abundance of concern.
keep up the great videos.
In an enclosed space where the fumes can build up it's not a good idea. But outside and a cigar/cigarette smouldering at around 400c won't, (and didn't), cause ignition. It matters how the cigarette actually falls onto the surface to the petrol. There is a lower chance of autoignition if the cigarette falls on it's side where the temperature is lower. Naked flames are the true enemy which is why there's no smoking in combustible areas because all cigarettes and cigars start with an open naked flame. Anyway, I had a fire extinguisher in my car and told/showed Matt where it was so he could chase me around trying to put me out.
@@TheFakeRussian Thank you for the explanation. Very good to know and I thank you.
Sounds like he knows what hes talking about .....
Really?? You should watch some of the repair vids on his channel.........they don't exactly inspire confidence.
@@tigermoth3194 I was being sarcastic 😂
For goodness sake, get an expert on old german fuel injection systems. A german classic car specialist would get the car running in no time. Or get home start from the AA and call them out!
I thought he was still in Bulgaria.
he come and goes. He is an enigma wrapped up in a mystery
I was bud but I have things in the UK I need to be in person for, (document signing and all that), and we're clearing everything down ready for the final move. Besides, the pubs are shut in Bulgaria :D
crank sensor
Thats a bit new for these, fully mechanical fuel injection here
Put a carb on it!
That is a great idea and the 2 litre version of same engine had a 1.75" Stromberg.
Find the manifold for that and put an SU carb on it.
Get one from an automatic car, that has the linkage for the kickdown cable.
Might reduce top end power a little, but would provide great economy comparable with injection of that era, but far more reliable.
Will also require ditching the high pressure injection fuel pump, for a low pressure type.
At £195 a bit pricey for an old manifold, but this key to making it all work.
www.ebay.co.uk/i/312677242656
Or from Germany a much cleaner one, without any bits missing.
www.german-spob-gmbh.com/start.php?nr=%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cb%3ENotice%3C/b%3E:%20%20Undefined%20index:%20%20nr%20in%20%3Cb%3EC:%5CInetpub%5Cgerman-spob%5Cshop_gebr%5Cnavigation.php%3C/b%3E%20on%20line%20%3Cb%3E34%3C/b%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E&art_name=INTAKE-MANIFOLD--&language=eng&seite=gebrauchtteile&seite_gebr=modellspez_warengrp&Baugruppe_GET=9&bg_name_GET=FUEL&TYP_ID=7&MOD_ID_GET=&MODNAME_GET=KOMBI&TYPNAME1=200%20T%20(123.280)&artikel_id=15891
I think thats for the carb version. What Ive learnt is nothing is as cheap as you think it will be on these cars!
ignore, just saw your other comment
Think I might go electric if it wont run!
Listen to the wife, Get it gone