I may have posted this before, but it's one of my favorite passages in all of WoT, and it deserves all the love it gets: "I am not a king, Nynaeve. Just a man. A man without as much to his name as even the meanest farmer's croft." Nynaeve’s voice steadied. "Some women don't ask for land, or gold. Just the man…Some men are strong enough. I know one such." If there could have been any doubt, her look left none to whom she meant. "All I have is a sword, and a war I cannot win, but can never stop fighting." "I've told you I care nothing for that. Light, you've made me say more than is proper already. Will you shame me to the point of asking you?" "I will never shame you. I will hate the man you choose because he is not me, and love him if he makes you smile…I must check the horses.” Nynaeve remained there kneeling after he had gone. Sleep or no, Rand closed his eyes. He did not think the Wisdom would like it if he watched her cry.
For all practical purposes, Rand and Elayne don't really have a relationship. They just don't spend enough time together. I think the only reason it exists at all is to have the dragon reborn father the queen of andor's children. Which is completely irrelevant to the actual story at hand. We never meet those kids.
I feel like part of the reason Rand's three relationships that I agree don't work so well as a polyamorous is because of its set up. It'll become a scenario of Rand with all 3, then Rand with Min while Avi and Elayne are together. Since Min doesn't have a relationship with them, it just becomes two couples who sometimes share the guy, but mostly stick to their own. I'm sure there are poly relationships like that that work, but in this case it ends up feeling more like they're swingers. Elayne and Avi are together while Min is with Rand. But oh, Elayne wants a little fun with Rand and Min allows it. Just with these 4 in particular it doesn't really feel poly. Rafe has his work cut out for him to make this work without diminishing any of the relationships.
I always disliked how later on Elayne and Rand act like Elayne taught Rand so much about leadership and running nations, because they only dated and did that stuff for the last few days they were in the Stone. They were in the Stone for maybe a month and most of that was Rand trying to teach himself alone while pouring over old books on the Kareatheon cycle as he tried to figure out what he needed to do next. When they do become a couple it is mostly just high school constantly making out in corners stuff. In FoH Moiraine is the one who actually crams as much leadership and political knowledge as humanly possible into his head with her quickly running out time before her confrontation with Lanfear.
AWESOME video! You really break things down so well and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I've always felt like the Morgase-Tallanvor relationship was somewhat disgusting and forced. Totally agree with that. Keep making really good content. This is great.
I like the idea of Rand breaking up with his girls, but I really like Min and Rand. Perhaps he could just end up with her? I guess they'd also have to cut the bonding scene then.
I'm torn. I agree that a series of sequential relationships makes far more sense for Rand. It is cleaner, and would feel less forced. On the other side of the coin, being atypical, I enjoy the anime feel to that relationship(s) too. Either way, I would be happy, because the essence of Rand's relationships aren't essential to his mission of defeating the Dark One. Do the women help in his mission? YES! Could any of them provided that help without romance? ABSOLUTELY! Yet... for the show... I want them to follow the books... See didn't I say I was Torn. :)
All I can think of is Buffy talking to Angel. Buffy: "Okay. I'm cookie dough... I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day, I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat m- or enjoy warm, delicious, cookie me, then... that's fine. That'll be then... when I'm done." Angel: "Any thoughts on who might enjoy... Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?"
I think Jordan only used the romances to reveal more about characters. I don't see this as a weakness in a fantasy series. He wasn't trying to write deep involved romances. Another thing, this is wartime, their lives could end at any moment. Consider how many instant romances actually happened during the Second World War. With death imminent people cling to something normal and good to displace the terrors of their lives.
This isn't something I'd thought about a ton, but I really like the way you broke it down. Great video! A lot of the relationships don't make a ton of sense if you look at them a bit deeper, but I wish that Rand could've focused more on his platonic love for Egwene and that we could've seen them impacted whatsoever by basically breaking up with the person they thought they would have married since they were 10 years old. Also, Min is the only girl of the 3 who really saw Darth Rand at all, and the fact that she stayed through that stuff cements her as the most logical relationship for Rand to me.
I always look forward to your videos. Your outlook always teaches me new ways to look at things without the whole "You must agree with me and think this way" vibe. You show me new ways to understand and appreciate both the wonders and flaws or my favourite saga. Thank you ❤️
Gotta be honest, I don't want them to change much in the show EXCEPT the romantic relationships and I've not thought about this nearly as much as you have! You've opened my eyes to a lot of things that I'd never even considered before too, which I really appreciate. I'll be thinking about all of these things as I continue my re-re-re-re-re-re-read of the series.
I think one of the best is actually Egaenin and Bayle Domon, Captain o’ de Spray. I think it’s because they’re both clearly mature adults and they’re both boat captains and because (unlike Tuon) Egaenin gets over her whole “being cool with slavery” thing. (So much so that she lets Egwene bond her as a warder.) But yeah, I pretty much dislike all the rest except Lan and Nynaeve. And I think I only like theirs because it is the only one that really matters to the plot, with the whole “ride for Malkier” thing. Also, what if we just dump the foursome for the show and pair Rand and Min and Elayne and Aviendha? Might work?
The Elayne/Avi stuff that is in the books already supports a relationship. You would have to do some re-writes because it's TV, but otherwise it's fine. But if both of them are not somewhat obsessed with romancing Rand the whole subplot where Avi is actively pushing him away to avoid betraying her oath about "Keeping Rand Safe for Elayne" does not work. For example, that little tidbit where she reforges her spears into a thngamabob (belt buckle IIRC?) for him and lets him assume that he got that because she hates him, and then her next scene she has been switched (presumably either for lying to him about hating him, or for bothering the Wise Ones by asking for a punishment)... So it could work, but there's some stuff in Books 5 and 6 that would have to be majorly rewritten, and the whole Elayne is pregnant subplot woul,d have to be changed, etc.
@@nicholasbenjamin3826 Yeah, the pregnancy (pregnancies? Is Aviendha pregnant at the end of the books? Or is she gonna hook up with Rand 2.0 later?) is a big one that would have to be adjusted for this to work. There are always consequences!
I think you gave the Moiraine-Siuan romance a bit too little credit based on what we see in New Spring. It is actually my favourite romance, because where most of RJ's romances are "Boom we're in love!", in New Spring we see actual puppy love between Moiraine and Siuan. It's a bit hidden away as if it's just exposition, but we get plenty of POV's from Moiraine going along the lines of: "I'm sitting here mulling over whatever issue is in front of me. Oh how annoying it is, but there must be some way out. I bet Siuan would know how these pieces fit together. Siuan is so smart, she could figure out any problem. There is just something about her - her intelligence, her humor, her fish puns - that makes me think she could figure out anything. I wonder what she's doing right now? Probably something really cool and useful. Siuan totally would be doing something amazing, she's just the type. She's so wonderful and capable. Did I mention she's smart? She's super intelligent let me tell you. I wish she was here so we could talk about... *ahem* The problem in front of me. Oh right, the problem. Where was I?" We get fewer POVs from Siuan than we get from Moiraine, but Siuan thinks the exact same way. But this romance does get brushed off, as you say, as mostly "just a phase". Moiraine and Siuan have their incredibly sweet and wholesome romance, but then they "grow up" and end up with "good stable men" by the end. One funny thing about Rand's love square is that, in a series where miscommunication/lack of communication is such a prevalent and recurring theme, the girls resolving this is one of the most outstanding pieces of adult communication. The girls all have their moment of "Wait, I'm competing against my best friend? I'M GONNA F#$@ING KILL HE- no, you know what, I'm better than this. Our friendship is too valuable to let some dumb guy get between us. We can work this out. We can talk about it. Let's talk."
Yeah, their romance in New Spring is good while it's happening, except for the fact that neither of them seem to think (even during it) that it will last... like, they seem to accept that this is a temporary thing, and that very much irks me while I'm reading it.
It was never established as something very deep and profound, enough to center them in a desire for any long term relationship (even at the time, with what both said they dreamed of their future - before even the dragon was known to them). And both of them married the mission more than anything, and happily separated for years. Towards the start of the main series, I believe the total number of actual correspondences between them is what, two letters? They both became strong independent women, not in any sort of relationship - because they both became consumed by a passion to save the world, in two very different ways. I agree with Lezbi in this. I think they would both be better served if they were allowed to be that, and not lessoned by having to be paired. At least not in this way, especially when they would have to be together a bit more to make it work, and given the backstory that makes up the core of these characters, something I don't want them unravel just to make them get that time. Instead, this seems to be a bit of a whirldwind romance, while they were kids for all intents and purposes, and both dreaming together of becoming greens and marrying princes - their words. They did love each other, but they grew, and they grew apart, for greater things. And that - is perfectly ok with me. They are not seeking high school flames anymore.
One thing I find interesting about Rands relationships is at the very end of the series. I've been thinking if its even possible for him to be presence in their lives and his kids lives.
Thank for your final comments! I completely agree that a new refreshing take would be to show that people evolve over time and it's good to love someone. But you don't have to in love now just because you loved then. After watching your video, I realized that Rand's three loves are the three main phases of his adult life... Elayne loves the young, attractive, naive, farm boy. Teaches him things would never learn otherwise. Aviendha loves Rand, the growing young man and emerging leader. Min loves Rand thru his trauma and integration of Lews Therin. It's almost what I would call the three phases of adulthood...The teenager turing into an adult, discovering that you are responsible for your choices and adults aren't all knowing. The "college age" young adult - learning new things. Thinking new ways, learning to assert yourself. And finally what I consider full adulthood... Learning that you are a screwed up person. Learning your flaws, learning how to work with those flaws, accepting those flaws, and hopefully making them a strength. Then, finally, loving yourself and not giving a sh#t what other people think. It took you decades to get where are; and they don't matter.
I completely agree about the love 'square'. I think it would have been great if Rand and Elayne's romance just dwindled into non-existence due to time and distance (which it did anyway). Then Rand and Aviendah's relationship could have ended with a big fight (maybe over his continued insistence that they had to marry). Aviendah would have then gone to Elayne to make up her toh over entering a relationship with Rand when he and Elayne weren't technically ended, and they could have become best friends/sisters because of their platonic love for each other, not because of Aiel customs over sharing a husband. It would have then been a natural progression for Rand to then enter a more fully mature relationship with Min, who was his only 'real' relationship anyway. And my god, why did Min have to be a virgin? I mean for a start she was older than Rand , and she noted many times how she was always attracted to older men before him, it would have made sense that she had had sex before. And the fact that Rand got three virgins and got to keep them all is just gross.
With Moiraine's Cairhienin upbringing and Daes Dae'mar, she probably found out quite a bit more about Thom than she spoke of in The Shadow Rising. She may also have encountered him in her tests for Aes Sedai, and her trip to Rhuidean could have shown her more as well. Remember her line that went something like "I probably know the face of the man I'll marry better than you," or something similar? I think Moiraine's knowledge of Thom was another case of there being more info learned off-screen than we know. I suspect she knew very well what kind of person Thom was and what kind of relationship they would or at least could have. I thought the "swooning" wasn't too overly done and I took it as just wanting to relax among friends after being freed. As for a relationship, maybe she was sick and tired of chasing plots and the dragon reborn and was looking forward to a life with far less of those types of concerns. Concerning Rand plus 3, might there have been some reason for Rand to be bonded by multiple women? Did that give him some advantage he needed? This wouldn't necessarily impact their relationship, but I am just speculating. Just my 2 cents. Nice vid.
The bonding... i actually edited that part out of my video cause it was already really long... but yeah, that is something that (if my idea were to be put into place) would take some work to fit into the story, cause I think it probably is helpful? I think warders gain something from a bond and Rand essentially becomes warder to three women. I could see it possibly as something done to counter the unwilling bond he has with Alanna, maybe? But... it would take some narrative work to get it to make sense.
The way I see it was rand had elayne; a weird messed up one with avienda. before finally settling down with Min. and Elayne and Avi had an awkward start, but got to be friends and more. The bit in winters heart is .... kind of weird as rand didn't *really* have a say in a it; he is almost like a sperm doner.
The relationships in WoT feels like sitcom love. Core group of characters cross-date each other without any seeming animosity and then random side characters pop up who the main characters all fall in love with at the slightest drop of a hat. I'm just going through a re-read of Fires of Heaven and a lot of the relationships you mention run through this book. The most problematic of all of them though is Elayne/Thom. The interactions between the two of them given the age difference and past history. I really struggle with those bits. Great video by the way.
I think the show should do what you suggested, have Rand get with Elayne, have them break up, then get with Aviendha, then break up, then get with Min. But then I think Min should die when Rand confronts Semirhage for the last time. I think Rand should be without a girlfriend during his dark night of the soul that leads to Veins of Gold. And after that, maybe he can get back with Elayne or Aviendha or just stay single until the Last Battle. He skips out on all of them at the end anyway, might as well do it before that.
I hope Min doesn't die tbh because if Rand survives in the end and no one knows he is still there anymore, it would be a rather sad ending for him to me. Okaaay, he doesn't need a woman to be happy but if no one knew, then why not kill him off at the Last Battle? Or will he be a lone wanderer wanting to see the world like Arya?
Yeah. The "true love" part was admittedly kinda cringy (I know some people might like that, it's just not my thing), but at least they tried to mix things up with it, and display some non-romantic love.
Thank you so much for this video.. Rand and his harem were the major reason I walked away from this series, largely for the arguments you put forward about Rand being at different stages of personal growth. My preference was, as yours, for Rand to experience a relationship and then respect the person he professed to love, enough to end a relationship and process it before diving into the next one. The other reason I walked away was because Nynaeve was my girl and I was heavily invested in the Nynaeve and Lan romance. When I realised that Myrelle had Lan's bond, her method of 'recovery' for Lan and her continued refusal to pass the bond to Nynaeve even when they married, I peaced outt. I did love what I'd read enough to get a brother hooked on the series despite my dissatisfaction. The Amazon Prime series has brought me back and I adored episode 4. I'll enjoy watching Lan and Nynaeve fall in love for as long as that enjoyment outweighs my general lack of enthusiasm for other relationships that are likely to be featured. Thanks again for reassuring me that even superfans such as yourself can have issues with the way romance and romantic relationships are portrayed in the series.
I can't disagree with any of your points. I love this series, but you are SO right. I think this is something that Rafe can "course correct" in the TV series. I especially like the idea of Elaine, Avienda and Min relationship. I agree it would be better if it had been sequential with the first two breaking up, but staying close (as people do). Like you said, you can break up with someone that you loved, stay close and support her either relationships because you still love her. Thank you. This is one of the better discussions of the "romance" within the Wot. Thanks.
ive just read the series for the first time and i agree with almost all of this. i personally saw the lan/nynaeve romance right away and it was frankly one of the main factors that made me stick with the series at all. i was strongly debating dropping it but That Scene™️ at the end of eye of the world had me hooked. i HAD to know what happens with them, even though my friend told me it doesn’t unfold for many many books to come. tom and moaraine make zero sense and were unnecessary, completely agree there. suan and gareth i personally really enjoyed bc they were both characters i liked and their dynamic was extra enjoyable for me and honestly it didnt feel like a replacement focus for suans character at all, more like egwane was DEMANDING all of her attention until she suddenly wasnt and suan had been holding BACK all along but now shes free to have feelings and be a PERSON not a symbol of power. i thought it was really sweet, all he did was support her and thats what i like to see in a man! As for the three girlfriends.... i hate that. i always hated it. its an awful idea. main point i was mad at while reading. completely unnecessary, not relevant for any plot or chracter reason..... i hated it so much i didnt even think of the option to just date them sequentially, i just want it GONE!!! and not to be nitpicky but if avilayne get “togerher” in the show it wouldnt be lesbian rep at all cos theyre still very much also sleeping with a man. i prefer the polyamory over just Big Dick Rand And The Harem but in an ideal world he would just date Min and NOT because she saw it in a dream and decided to rub up on him until he starts dreaming abt it too. Im sorry to the wot supremacists but this one thing (and some others obviously) put me off so much that i dont think i will ever reread this series. unless its like just nynaeve cuts or smth... im not going through all the harem bs again when everything said in this video is so true - there was absolutely. no. need.
The romance that bothered me the most had to have been Egwene and Gawyn- it might just be because I dislike Gawyn so much as a character, but it felt to me like their romance and bonding were set up just to nerf Egwene in the last battle.
I think you've convinced me on not shipping Aviendha and Elayne as their own couple within the four. I'd probably rather them not be with Rand and just with each other, or just deeply loving friends/sisters as in the books.
As a expansion of your 'break up' idea, I've though of a somewhat interesting approach for it. Relationship 1: Rand and Elayne have a typical teenage romance, which is egged on by the sword maidens. but Elayne discovers after some time that after the 'newness' is worn off that it doesn't satisfy her, all the while Avienda and her have become BFF. At the end before Rand leave she breaks it off, but doesn't really makes it clear to the wool-headed sheepherder. Avienda does not know about this break-up. Rand is very confused about this and Avienda does not help this confusion at all. Relationship 2: Avienda and Rand are somewhat forced in close proximity with each other for extent periods of time. This is by design from the wise ones. They wanted to solves 2 problems with one stone: 1 Hopefully binding the dragon Reborn (and the Car'a'carn) to the Aiel people more permanently. 2 As a lesson to Avienda on how to be a wise women and their relationship with chieftans and leaders of different tribes. As want with 2 very stressed and confused teenagers that have gone through a lot together, this boils over in that awkward scene in the iglo. Avienda realize her mistake and her feelings for Elayne and breaks it off. Rand is even more confused and pines after Avienda for the rest of the trip. Relationship 3: Min and Rand are 2 awkward young adults with not a lot of experience in have a relationship. Min knows from her viewings that a relationship with the boy is in the books for her and isn't against it. I fact she finds him attractive and actively and awkwardly pursue the young man. Queue a lovely young romance. Relationship 4: Elayne and Avienda, i've no idea how to develop this..... but i can only tell this: The only reason that she has sex with Rand is that she needed an husband or an heir to stake a legitimate claim on the Andoran throne. I have no idea how to make this arrangement happen naturally nor why they Warder bond Rand, but the reason that Min's allows this is VIEWINGS and her almost compulsive need the follow what the pattern shows her Extra Theory: Why are there no female Warders? Seriously, I don't believe that in the +2500 years of that bond existing that Brigitte is the only female Warder in history. The syncing of the monthly visitor isn't a big enough reason for the possibility of having a female Warder to be a negative. My theory is thus: For a warder-bond-weave to work there needs to already be a preexisting bond in place. Be it: mutual attraction, mutual respect, friendship, familial love, or any other kind of 'strong' bond. It need to be a sufficiently strong bond for it to work. As you can see some of those options are prelude toward the future relationship between Aes Sedai and her Warder(s). Thus have a female warder created a social stigma in the white tower over the years. I base this of Elaida's throwaway comment of having a 'pillow friend' during her Novice years and describing it as some sort of fase during that periode of her girlhood in the tower. Like it is something to hide as a Aes Sedai. This leads me to believe that this particular social stigma has had serious consequences in the past for ambitious Sedai. Making it impossible to rise in station as a Aes Sedai with a female warder. If this theory is correct then Elayne bonding of Birgitte and how the Aes Sedai treat her after it shine a whole new light on the affair. What do you think?
Great discussion of a nuanced topic. I found myself agreeing with you even on those few points where my opinion differs somewhat. No matter what the show has some work to do to make all of the relationships work better on screen.
Jordan's great at characters, and once the characters have declared their true love their interact in ways that are extremely believable. But I can't think of a time he did a run-up to the declaration that was good. Particularly on first read-thru. Tuon/Mat was good, the pattern was forcing them together and she forced him to romance her anyway, but that was mostly Sanderson. And, yes I am fully agreed that Tuon is an evil character. Entertaining as fuck to read, but her hobby involves torturing grown adults until they become willing weapons of war for literal Imperialism. As for "lessening" the female characters, I agree. He's clearly a baby boomer-second-wavish-style feminist, and one of the Second Wave's huge complaints was that none of their male peers would marry them, so he probably thought that having all his women married off to equal-ranking-male-characters at the end of the books was feminist. In fact I think he has one of the Aes Sedai characters tell the girl's team early in the books that the reason no sisters are married is that dudes can't handle strong chicks. But he ended up with a bunch of female characters who didn't have suitably-ranked male mates, and he soleved that mostly be demoting the chicks, which sucks. The whole story is kind of structured around this. Everyone ends up in a hetero power-couple, except the Poly Quartet, several of those relationships were clearly forced on their participants by the Pattern (for example that time Avi pops Rand's cherry). They're gonna have to do something with that for the show, because hetero-power-couples are no longer the only feminist dream relationship, but I don't know what exactly. Rafe will certainly do something n this, but he's also going to make us WAFO (Watch and Find Out). As for the male gazeyness of an Elayna/Avi relationship. Given that Avi is a redhead, they're both fit 20-somethings, Elayne is at one point described as unreasonably pretty by one of her hetero girlfriends, etc. there's not really a way to ship them that is 0% male gazey in 2020 America. But if you hire the right actresses, and change the dialogue a teensy but, it would be...fine...Think about how this plays on screen: Rand has Egwene as platonic GF for Seasons 1-4, then in Season 5 she hands him off to Elayne and they make out a couple times, then he's accompanied by Avi (who fucks him once, while under extreme pressure by Fate itself), she promptly goes to meet Elayne, Seasons 7/8 are entirely their lesbian relationship, Season 9 has the bonding/fucking, he goes off and then both Elayne and Avi ignore him for all personal business until Avi uses him as a graduation present in like season 14. Guys are going to male gaze the heck out of this, but there's just not much on-screen support that the gay relationship is less important to them personally than their relationship with Rand. BTW: This doesn't really directly impact any of your criticisms of Jordan's writing, but it is a useful bit of context: are you familiar with Jordan's friend John M Ford? He's a fairly well-regarded but poorly selling author of Jordan's generation who only survived as long as he did due to Medicaid and being paid to draw Wheel of Time maps. There was a bit of a media frenzy around him in the long-long-ago time of November 2019, and one of the things that was mentioned was that his polyamorous relationship was an inspiration for the quartet.
No! I haven't heard of Ford, that's interesting! I had actually heard that RJ himself had 3 girlfriends at one point, and thought "if I can do it, surely the savior of the world can do it", but... well, I think I read that on reddit and who knows how reliable a source that is, lol! And your comment about second-wave feminism is very interesting, I never thought of that, actually, and it makes me look at this differently. Not that I suddenly like the romances, but it makes me have a different perspective on the intention behind writing them that way, which is cool!
Well thought out and presented. I don’t have problems with Rand being with any of the three, but the idea of it being true love doesn’t make sense. Each girl decides she is going to end up with him. I like that they seem to have that control, but Min and Avi have been told that’s what is going to happen so doesn’t seem like true love when fate controls. Rand accepts their telling him they love him as it’s the only happy things that happen to him. Not questioning that they all have young love relationships, just doesn’t seem like the four will last forever. End of series the girls all had different focuses in their futures. Rand always had voice in his head crying for his true love. If she had been reborn wouldn’t part of his reward be to find her again after he went off to new life? That had been a mature relationship in his first life.
Do any of us Need a romance? For me romance is for joy and for a level of conection that requires a high level of trust. Emotions are much stronger during times of crisis so the excuse for the quick romance in RJ's books. It would have been nice if the romance in Wot could have been flushed out. Maybe 2,3,4 or 5 more novellas added to the series. This leads to my final thought. Such a large, rich world. I want to see it expanded and new stories evolved. Thanks for your videos I enjoy and learn new information. They are also fun.
Thought provoking as always!! I totally agree RJ didn’t develop relationships well. Definitely something I’d love to see improved in the TV show! This video has made me reevaluate the “love-quadrangle” relationship. I’ve been leaning towards a polyamorous between them all, but I see your point with the whole male gaze issue. There has to be a way to make the relationships believable without feeling exploitative.
Rand's relationships never bothered me... more than the other ones. (RJ just wasn't that good at relationships. Have that been mentioned before? ;) ) To me it just seemed like a poly relationship as badly written as the other relationships. ;) I have every hope that the showrunners will be able to do that better than RJ. XD Can they change it to three relationships, one after the other? Sure. Do they have to? No, but I wouldn't hate it either. I fully expect it to stay, though. When it comes to Aviendha specifically... to ME it's the one time that "I hate to love you" works for me. Well... in the context of relationships in WoT. ^^ It's my personal opinion... but I can see how Aviendha fights against love just because she doesn't want to be forced. Not even by "fate". Making herself (and Rand) miserable because of it. Maybe I like it because (to me) it is contrasted by Min and how she choses not to fight it. Still... it would have worked better if RJ had been more adept at this part of writing, I guess. ;) The same can't be said for Perrin and Faile. I do NOT like their love/hate thing and feel relieved when they just are in love. :P But (as you also said) they're young and dumb. ^^ Siuan and Gareth Bryne is just... dumb. However... I actually like Tuon and Mat. I think it's because I'm not ambivalent about Tuon. I don't like all of the Seanchan culture (how could anyone?). But when it comes to Tuon I genuinly like some parts of her and accept that I hate other parts. She's a complicated character and I enjoy how she's written (just like I love hating other characters). So without that ambivalence getting in the way I can probably say that Mat and Tuon is one of my favourite relationships. (And yes, Lan and Nyn is the best one. ;) )
I didn't see these as fitting any of these cliche's; because the whole series implicitly falls under another one. Because of the 'pattern of the ages' 'Wheel of Time" thing; FATE is firmly in control of all these relationships. Serious lack of free-will going on. Very much like The Belgariad where 'prophecy' forced couples together and it was waved away as 'this is your reward for doing what you're supposed to do.' It's kind of lazy; but it's what you get when you create a world with a guiding (controlling) higher-power.
While I agree with you that the relationships with Rand as the pivot feel problematic, I only partially agree with you as to why. Yes, it is a problem that Elayne and Aviendha are separate from him for so long and that they are all essentially different people by the time the relationship "comes together" towards the end of the story. However, for me the larger issue is the way that Elaine and Aviendha and, to a lesser extent, Min, treat Rand as an object for them to partition amongst themselves. The bonding, the Aiel marriage, all of this was decided with little to no input from him. Speaking as a bisexual polyamorous man who is currently in 4 stable relationships, this is not a healthy or stable way to be poly. From day one communication is lacking amongst and between all the participants of this polycule. When the showrunner says that he wants to make the relationship more poly, I'm hoping that that doesn't just mean showing romance between the women of the relationship, but that it shows a more healthy relationship overall with better communication among all four participants. I don't think the story would be better served by having Rand be a serial monogamist, but rather by having representation of a legitimately healthy polyamorous relationship. That being said, I agree with you about most of the other points that you raised about the other relationships, especially Thom and Moiraine, because the only foreshadowing for that relationship was prophecy, there was no actual relationship between them before the rescue and it was just terrible. And Siuan and Bryne makes me roll my eyes so hard. And Tallanvor is SO SKEEVY. I am very much looking forward to watching your video about Tuon and Mat, because while I found there to be a lot wrong with their relationship, it was also interesting because it was a relationship where both parties were only getting involved because of different prophecies. Not just one, like Min or Aviendha getting involved with Rand because of prophecies that they knew but he was ignorant of initially, but both parties only being involved because of Prophecy. Mat because of the answers from the snakes that he would marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and Tuon because of the foretelling from a damane about the fox that makes the ravens fly. It adds an interesting dynamic and subtext to their relationship that I am very interested to hear your take on.
I am so sorry that you’ve been approached like that by men. That’s skeezy AF. I agree with what you’re saying about it seeming like a “lesser relationship”. I’m not sure what the solution is, here; I hadn’t thought about breaking up the timeshare ladies from Rand, but I can definitely get on board with this.
So, I've always looked at WoT as layers, choke full of "throw away comments" that return later. (a certain metal tower spotted in EOTW?) Plus, the most central theme is a Pattern guiding the weaving. And a built in "reward" mechanism, which included relationships. /shrug It's a trope. Especially from the '90's. Luckily, it's quite clear that all are deliriously happy with outcomes. I feel that the subtlest romance layer was Moraine and Thom. WoT was all about alluding to what had happened off page, but ALWAYS from someone's POV. Sometimes you catch the asides.... sometimes they are never there. I WISH there were more M&T scenes. But that's also the beauty of it. The "elder" mentors, both rebels in their own way, choosing to have broader power, than having near absolute in single, wealthy, domain. Then having to deal with these very important, world changing kids? Plus, they both "knew" of each other. Right from the beginning. Perhaps they met before? Between NS and EOTW? Yet another "off-page," more deeper meaning behind the current scenes? It's arguably one of my favourite relationships, top 5, possibly 3. Just because of how unstated it it. I wish there had been 2 more books. Another POV from both M&T would probably be enough to not feel as rushed to tie things off as MoL was. Min: From how vague some of the writing was, leaving it to the reader's head cannon; I always felt that merely sitting in his lap, prude Two Rivers boy he truly was, would be more than enough to set the redhead to stammering and blushing. :) And then it became a game. And then it became more. Don't forget, Min met him first. When he was innocent, when he was an unworldly, young, truthful boy. Also being pushed by the Pattern. Didn't one of her POV's she was thinking she didn't want to scare him into ordering her away. So, push a line, open a door, tease it out, hope the "bluff" is called... /shrug possibly
I like your channel and your fresh perspective. I also agree there are too many couples that Jordan pairs up. It is unnecessary. But maybe Jordan had trouble believing a person is 'complete' without a SO or he was trying to close the story without any loose ends? If they choose to have these romances in the show, they will have to make them more convincing. But I think that it is far easy to see a relationship forming on film than in a book... All those non-verbal actions that clearly show interest. There are no non-verbal actions in written works. Will, they have time to make these relationships complete? It will be fun if they lay a bunch of false trails with Egwene and Perrin as a possible couple... maybe they will expand the sexual tension between many characters... We know Mat would hit anyone who is willing and doesn't know what Daughter of the Nine Moons means. How much will sex be apart of the story? There is an awful amount of plot to work through that has nothing to do with couplings... Shouldn't Galad sweep some poor unsuspecting person off their feet. Eqwene is so enamored with him at one point, shouldn't something happen? Why did she pick Gawyn? Was Jordan saying some people are just bad at evaluating suitors? Enough of my musing.... wish they would just get a trailer out to us!
Oh yeah, the romantic relationships are one of the weakest aspects of RJ's characterization. Call it an excuse, but I figure that in a world with destiny, accurate prophecy, true reading of the omens/pattern, foretelling, reincarnation & soulmates... I suppose it makes sense that love at first sight & couples that were fated to be, fit into the the fantasy setting. It all clashes with the realism of the other sociological aspects baked in to the rest of the interpersonal relationships of the characters. 🤷
I know I’m late to the game having only discovered your channel recently and working my way through your backlog. Wanna start with saying I enjoy your content, and though I often disagree with an aspect or two, your content is improving my rereads. I have to say that I agree that breakups are necessary and should have continued. One of my favorite things is that from the start we’re told Rand and Egwene are essentially betrothed. His first (I think) instance of channeling is to give Bela the extra edge because he’s afraid for her. Min tells him early on that it’s not going to work out, but we still see that assumption of their connection at least through book two and I really enjoy their breakup in book 4. I actually thought of Avienda’s relationship with him as a really well-done version of “I hate you because I love you”, because for her, she sees that she is going to betray her friend and is in a way trying to sabotage the relationship. Additionally, she still wants to be a maiden, she sees the romance as lessening her. It works well in the context that it is part of her resistance to growing. Not a huge fan of the wise one’s forcing him to “eat Rand’s cookie” as you put it either. Though I always assumed one of them dreamt it, even though it’s never said outright. I hope the show treats the references to some of the Aes Sedi being lesbian with a bit more seriousness, and maybe demonstrates Rhuarc, Amys, and Lian as a better, healthy polyamorous relationship.
OMG I never knew I wish they would have just broke up in the story until now. I actively despise the foursome romance and secretly hope it's removed in the show.
Thank you so much for this video! You nailed it! I hope that they do just have rand "date" the girls one at a time and end it with min. It's not really important to the plot of the story for all 4 to be together. Great job! You won me over. I'm definitely subscribing. Thanks again!
You are right, RJ tends to rely upon the mystery of love to define some of the couplings. There’s not a ton of build up to “oh gosh I can’t live without them suddenly”. I didn’t see a lot of chemistry in some of the couples and was left thinking “hmm oh ok”
Kinda echoing everyone else here, but you summed up my thoughts pretty well too! Especially on the topic of the polyamorous relationship. And as a straight male, hearing your explanation on certain issues that could be there in the show if Elayne and Aviendha is added as a "mini-relationship" isn't something I even thought about, so seeing it pointed out was interesting to consider. I hope they manage to handle the romances, and _especially_ the foursome, well in the adaptation.
Very well put, though I must say, as a straight man, I’ve never wanted to ask my partner to engage in lesbian sexual acts for my enjoyment. I’m sorry men have asked that of you, but please don’t judge us all based on them. I personally quite liked the Aviendha romance, but perhaps that is because the flirtation was more genuine and subtle than in the other relationships.
I'd like too add only two ideas. 1. Perrin and Faile. They are toxic. But I think that it is thematically underlooked that her being violent with Perrin is another clear attempt at subversion. He's a massive warrior blacksmith. And she is tall but slender. The woman in that relationship is the abuser. If you think of it from a different lens it makes it almost seem like the entire thing is an homage to toxic relationships. As I'm writing this I am struggling to think of a single healthy one. And almost all of them subvert our ideas of who is a perpetrator and who is a victim. Morgase is the height of power and she gets compelled, violated and stalked. Powerful people can still get abused. Mat and Tylin. Women can exert pressure and commit SA. Egwene and Gawyn. Sexual attraction can be just as strong and blinding for women as it can for men. Even Elayne and Aviendha can be interpreted as RJ showing the love of two women can be just as strong and deeply bonding as what either has with Rand. (Speaking of pretending things didn't happen I choose to believe RJ only didn't make them a couple because of societal/editorial pressure as far as I am concerned the evidence is there) Rand and Min. Starts with the age gap but continues on showing her as the strong, stable, rational, smart partner for Rand. He needs her debatably more than she needs him. And 2. The portion of Aviendha's story that you would consider the "hate you so much it's actually love" trope, I see differently. I see it as an incredibly realistic reaction to what happened too her in the rings. She is rebelling, and angry and frustrated. She's a microcosm of Rands struggle to accept. She does it faster and with more grace ,IMO, but it's very true to her character. And I would lightly add I always viewed the Wise Ones pushing Aviendha to be around Rand as partly motivated by their "training" they make the apprentices do everything they hate the most in order to "teach them" how to put aside their pride and personal emotions to make them "wiser" and better able to provide truly "neutral" leadership. I agree with all that you said about it being icky and messed up. I just added that little 'explainer' for myself I guess. Lol
You just expressed everything that I felt about Rand and his ladies 👑👑👑 they just represent three phases of his growth and it's 100% okay, they absolutely DONT need to all be together especially if they don't even actually all end up with Rand in the end since he's "dead", so it's all just pointless. I'll just give my little personal two cents on the Tallanvor / Morgase is that they're the classic courtly love type of romance (which I'm very weak for) so I kiiiiind of forgive -some- things mentioned (except everyone pushing Morgase in his arms, that's never a cute look)
I completely agree with you on the Rand relationships. I have always felt that. And you bring up the most important point, that he grows and changes and min had been with him through it all. I just don't agree with how the flirting and lap sitting. I loved that part. I don't know why. I just did.
I can totally understand Lezbi's points in complaining about how Min doesn't need to "wiggle around on a man's lap" to be validated but I also do kind of agree that the lap-siting can be cute/sweet/whatever. As a relatively shy guy, it would not take a lot of "wiggling" for a girl to make me stammer and blush. Even though Rand is the Dragon and so on, he is still relatively shy when it comes to dealing with women and I can totally see just the act of her sitting in his lap, and not doing anything except sitting, causing him to get very flustered. And then after the first time or two, they realize that they actually enjoy just cuddling and it just so happens that the most comfortable way to cuddle is for her to sit in his lap. There is not much overtly sexual about it, just romantic/cuddly/couple enjoying time together. Also, I do think that there were a couple times where Min would intentionally sit in Rand's lap during audiences with random nobles not because she wanted to be close to Rand (even though that is a nice bonus), but because she knows it confuses the noble who is trying to talk to the Dragon Reborn (the title) and now has to deal with a guy who is having a moment with his lover.
I agree, it didn't bother me at all, I enjoyed it, too. Min tried to make him see that she is not like his sister but instead a woman and he better sees it and feels it because he is a woolhead that sometimes takes longer to get it :D
See I preferred the Aviendha/Rand angryness to the Faielle/Perrin angryness. Aviendah had an legit reason to be frustrated and I very much enjoyed Rand's bemused response. I liked the two together but then after they split up its like the realtionship is just...gone. Not helped by AViendah basically disappearing from the books near the end. Elayne's I agree felt shallow. Min's romance is my favourite of the three. I take her 'seduction attempts' as intended as amusing and falls into that category of 'this would not be acceptable in real life but we like in stories'. (Though its complicated by Min knowing ahead of time Rand is into her?). I also have to assume she was being *slightly* less scandalous than it sounds....that or Rand is *spectacularly* dense. I mean we often joke about how men can't tell if a women likes them unless they literally jump us and start grinding away, but Rand goes beyond that :D Regardless, with the actual relationship, Rand/Min is definitely the best for...well pretty much all the reasons you just said. But I'd add that Elayne seems to view him as an idealised figure, Aviendah views him as....I want to say a duty? But not in the negative way that implies. Can't really put it into words, but Min is the one who actually seems to be in a relationship with Rand the person. For the show, portraying polyamory in a good way is certainly tricky but I think they should. Though I may be biased as I know quite a few polycules.
Romance is definitely not RJ's strongest point. Though I will ALWAYS laugh at taciturn, stoic warrior Lan busting out the underwear melting poetry and walking away :D
In my headcanon, Elayne's motivation for getting together with Rand was at least a little political. Maybe a lot political. Andoran succession isn't always clear-cut - she even had to fight a war over it - and I imagine her thinking that the child of the Dragon Reborn (which was guaranteed from Min's viewing iirc) would have an advantage, if she had a daughter, or give her future daughter an advantage, if she had a son. It just so happens that her daughter with Rand will be from two royal lines - Trakand and Mantear. I don't think she knew that at the time, but there's plenty of time to find out post-books.
I know I am watching this a year after these comments lol. But Elayne had at least a crush on Rand when he was just a peasant who fell off a wall and into her garden. No politics involved there and I think that was where she started falling for him.
Oh for sure!! Per the books, Elayne 100% totally had a (at the very least) crush and started falling for him then. Between then and when she decided to not drink the heartleaf(?) tea, I like to figure (again, my headcanon) that Rand's political clout played a part in her decision. She definitely still had a crush at that point, too. *At the very least* a crush, and probably more. Love is powerful.
From the beginning, you could see it wasn't even planned to be long term for them. They were in a high school romance, while both even admitting to eventually grow out of it and marry princes, become greens, etc. They had to grow up fast, and became strong independent women in their own right, away from each other. They they got married to the mission to save the world; from very separate paths. I respect this choice. Maybe Elayne and Aviendha, if they can get a breakup arc in this with rand, where he settles for min as suggested here - or other such lesbian representation as might happen, it wasn't just this case, even if this was the one that had primary characters. If we are trying to force one relationship in this. Does Moraine Domadred, who is going to sacrifice everything she is, for rand, to save the world, protect him, really want this, 20 years on in her zeal?
The Perrin/Faile ship is the best and most developed, IMO. And because *it's high-fantasy* it surprisingly works very well in it's crazy way. Also, a lot of it's nuances are later incorporated into many others that follow: _Lan/Nev, Rand/Min, Siuan/Gareth, and Mat/Tuon._ The Nev/Lan one(two of my favorite characters), I could never get into; they are suddenly madly in love 2/3rds of the way through the first book! And then much later, Lan abandons his wife and current responsibilities to commit a pointless suicide. _wuuut?_
The Moiraine-Thom relationship blindsided me so hard, I decided to drop the series after book 13. I had accidentally read New Spring before book 1 so, for me, Moiraine was the main character of the series. This forced relationship completely ruined my favorite character. I just couldn't bring myself to continue with the series after that.
while it's still a stretch for real life, I find lan & nyn remaining in love despite being apart infinitely more believable that literally every other wot romance in which this happens - because lan & nyn don't change much as people. this is not to say they don't grow... but their core personalities remain relatively the same between their proposal and their eventual marriage, which is untrue in most other cases
To be honest I always thought Elayne was attracted to Rand bc he was the Dragon Reborn. She flirted with every man in her vicinity for it to feel like true love. Plus he gave her children. Her future would be secure as both Queen and Mother. Even Aviendha . Again attracted to Rand for who he represented. And being encouraged by the Wise ones, who read like they were her pimps! But again, she SAW the future of her people and that Rand would give her children too. She acted to ensure that future. Min was the only woman who saw and knew Rand as Rand. I kinda hope the two meet again in his new persona and live quietly somewhere. The only true romance is Lan and Nynaeve. All the others are just forced by RJ. Was it the attitude of male writers at the time to write women marrying a man, regardless of the circumstances? Or was he just following the criteria of his times?
About Aviendha and the Wise Ones...I think it's a cultural thing, really. The Aiel may not explicitly have arranged marriages but IIRC the Wise Ones do suggest matching Egwene (and maybe Min?) up with men that they've picked out. I always assumed that the Wise Ones were trying to force a relationship between Aviendha and Rand not because they thought she liked him but just because it would be a politically beneficial relationship for the Aiel. It's icky by modern standards, but pretty standard for much of history.
What you have to realize is that people can change their minds. If a woman was initially resistant to loving a man, despite whatever hurdles or barriers that get in the way of that, they can later decide that they do love him. Every relationship you don't like seems to stem from it not being the woman's choice first. I can't believe that Suian, Morgase, and Aviendha would love a man because someone else told them, too. They are each of them too strong willed to let others make their own choices for them. If they ended up with a man, it is because THEY wanted it, regardless of other factors. A woman's right to choose is not lessened by influences of men. Rand's relationships with three women at the same time is not an attempt at something fresh and new. This is part of the theme that Rand gets more of everything concerning Aiel. He has more clans following him, he has two dragons instead of one. Chiefs often have two wives, and he gets three. Ta'verens start solo, Rand grows up with two other Ta'verens. The dude does more stuff than anyone and gets more stuff than anyone. Having three wives is a part of that. Sequential relationships are played out. Insert teen bopper flick here. It's been done before in fantasy, too. Harry Potter. Finally, people can change and still be together. That is the mark of a strong relationship, and one that is most satisfying to read about. At least in my opinion. I love your videos, even if you express opinions I disagree with. So, I hope you take this the same way you take your criticisms of Wheel of Time.
Love this video, just finding your channel now, via Dusty Wheel, via Daniel Greene, via Dragonmount. Would appreciate your opinions on some things. One, what do you think about the was lust is portrayed in the books as a whole? It seems like the men are shown being more in control of their feelings than the women are, and that women are more into marriage than men, who associate it with "Nagging Wives." The other this is that Min is my favorite character in the books, and I'm worried that it's because, by herself, she is a character meant to appeal to a male audience. I love the way that she is trying to be super protective of Rand, but she seems like not just a vulnerable character, but represents a vulnerable point for Rands enemies to attack, as well as Egwene when she was Damane. I don't know why but I kind of enjoyed the sadness evoked by Min and Rands doomed relationship, like when he's looking at her collecting books while preparing for what the world would be after he dies. Would appreciate your thoughts, and keep up the great work. Give you a high five if you could receive it.
Hey! Thanks so much, And yeah, hard to receive High Five's when I have no body, lol. And to answer one of your questions kinda briefly, I feel the whole male/female gender breakdown in the books very much falls into stereotypes at points -- don't get me wrong, I LOVE these books, but some of the ways Jordan distinguishes the genders just drives me nuts. Women nag and manipulate things behind the scenes, men are sensible and forthright. It's a bit... it's something that bothers me a bit. But I do try to remember the time and place the RJ was writing, and I do think intentions matter, at least as far as we can guess them, and I think he was trying to create 3 dimensional female characters in a genre where there weren't really any at that point, and he succeeded, and I'm grateful for it.
Dar I was looking forward to how you saw Matt and Tuon. I absolutely hated it at first, but then I started to weirdly enjoy it after a while, only to eventually not like it again... her strength is an interesting blend with his personality.
"I'm a lesbian but...man Lan can get it" made me LOL. I was never a huge fan of Lan and Ny's romance but I agree with why it was one of the better ones. I SO agree with you about Perrin and Faile. I was so annoyed by how she wanted him to "yell at her" and it was like get over it. Hated Suin and Brynn too. Suin was such an awesome strong female character and she just got ruined in that romance. Like she changed and I hated it. It totally lessoned her character. I watched this literally JUST TO HEAR ABOUT MORAINE. I was SOO angry when they got together. Moraine was my favorite character and I was so mad about it. I didn't want her to have a romance at all. Why did she have to? I guess I missed the foreshadowing but ugh.
Excellent break down on Rand's 4 some. I think you nailed it perfectly. I agree that just making Elayne and Avienda have a sexual relationship with feel cheap especially since they became first-sisters.
Great video!! Can’t get behind the Min love as she had no other purpose to the story then to support Rand and sit on his lap, but the rest I loved, everything is always an opinion though! Glad to hear what you think and the analysis really makes me think about my initial reactions to certain couples. Also what you said about lesbian relationships was soooo real, thanks for putting it out there. Love the vid!!!
I don't mind Siuan and the General. I just think it goes on for an eternity. I kinda like their grumpy foreplay. Again, though a little of that goes a long way. Also he looks what, 40 years older? Moraine also looks like Thom's daughter. Ick. Why do both women need father figures and why do these old men need young looking wives? It's sexist and as creepy as Elayne flirting with Thom. Again 3 old men. 3 young or young looking women who want them. Also Thom's former and now dead girlfriend was a young girl too. ick. Ick ick..
One of my favorite characters growing up reading these was Egwene, but I always absolutely hated how her romance with Gawyne played out... On recently rereading, I was genuinely HORRIFIED by their first experience together in the dream DDD:
I don't actually feel too strongly if they have Elayne and Aviendha fall in Love, but I totally understand the horrible truth about men being turned on by Lesbians 🤦♀️ it's why I feel Bain and Chaid definitely need to be lesbians, it's so refreshing for them to be taunting Gaul, because he's NOT interested in being with them both, it's like a total turn off for him, but he can fall in love with them because he sees how powerful and strong they are together, like it's seeing their relationship that leads to him falling in love with them! I think that's new and fresh and showing growth in a relationship!
Currently tv shows rely on blood/battles and nudity/sex to capture audiences. The more scandalous, the better. Well we should have a lot of battles and blood, but there is so little direct nudity in the books they will just have to change it. It will not be "contemporary" if there isn't. As for the relationship between Rand and the three women, I feel like RJ wrote the main character exclusively for the male audience, which (straight) male does not fantasize about having more than one woman? To hell with a relationship, bring on the women!
Since RJ includes so many religions in the series, I always felt like the Rand, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min relationship(s) were more of a Morman twist. Same with the Aiel relationships.
I think Faile is great for Perrin and he is good for her. She's from a society where they expect their husbands to be alpha and the wife will continuously rest the husband and he has better know how to handle her.
Nah, don't want to see Rand's relationships to break up, we already seen that with Rand and Egwene, at the start of the series they both believed that they are destined to end up together and they have that more than a friends but not yet a couple going on, but as they see their world they realised they aren't in love with each other anymore. Having Rand break up with 2 or 3 of his ladies would just be a repeat of that. And I wouldn't mind for polyamorous relationships to be more normalised by media.
lmao about the description of how Min rubs herself against Rand. Imagine a man doing that to a woman. Most romances in the series reflect some kind of "old fashioned" , psychologically undeveloped society.
Great video as usual, however I don’t agree with most persons POV regarding romance in WoT. When I read anything with romance I take into account all the relationships I’ve observed and been in all my life and remember that people are human and we do some dumb 🤬 for “love”. (Shrug)...no romance is perfect and shouldn’t be written as so. I feel like many don’t see that the characters have a past and that past influences all they do. I.e. Morgaise is suffering from some serious Munchausen's syndrome and that should be taken into account when viewing what she does and why. 🤷🏿♂️ Since I’m 50+ and never been married perhaps I don’t know 🤬 about romance. 😂😂😂
I found the Aviendha/Rand relationship more like flirtatious over cultural barriers. I liked their struggles leading up to the igloo scene. At the point in the story i hated the "oh, we're in love now" stories. Elayne/rand, min obsession over rand, Perrin/Faile, and Lan/Nyneave before we see how great the relationship is. Aviendha and Rand felt like they had an arc into their romance which i appreciated. I saw the "hate you until I love you" more like cultural barriers keeping them away. I just didn't like how the romance fell flat after the igloo scene. Though if RJ took more risks in the Aviendha/Elayne relationship then it would've felt better. As I feel like Aviendha and Elayne love each other more than Rand. However, I like Aviendha the most of the 3 girls. Edit: oh you discussed this. Yeah your points makes sense. However, if the writing is done well it can avoid the "male fantasy" and maybe min also gets with someone outside of the 4some. This relationship is weird, but I think Aviendha and Elayne should get together. That being said this is all coming from a gay male's perspective so maybe I'm wrong.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your closing. The relationships aren't perfect and some are extremely tenuous as best. I think some of this was inadvertent but some of it was certainly intentional to spark feelings from the readers whether they be positive or negative. It's what draws us to the series and keeps us interested and talking about it. I don't agree that it's beneath an intelligent and independent woman (Min) to enjoy sitting on a man's lap. Have you seen some of weird fetishes people have? LOL To each his/her own ;).
I wasn't a fan of Moiraine and Thom and would rather see her and Siuan together as they valued and knew each other so much like bffs with a deep love for each other. Thanks for the thought progress here. Lan & Nyn
Some are more then believable, some seem out of nowhere, you just have to be willing to see that things are happening off "screen". There is alot of different types of romantic relationships in the books, some are more physical, some more emotional, some are weird :) Funny the Avi/Rand relationship is prob my favourite of the 3, there is genuine physical attraction, with a bit of the forbidden fruit. I love that the wise ones are forcing her into it, and I love how hard she fights against it. I also love how utterly clueless both Rand and Eggy are to whats going on. The wise ones are hard women indeed :). I wouldn't say that the love square is my favourite thing in the books, but if the show were to ignore it, I would find something missing. In terms of the whole guys being into watching their gf/wife hook up with another women, some guys like watching there significant others hook up with other guys, some like feet, we are just all kinds of messed up :)
One thing that I like about Lan and Nyneave is RJ at least took the effort to say 'things happened off screen,' since while the month or so at Fal Dara and at the Stone, we're told Lan and Nyneave are pretty much constantly going on dates.
I’m soooo glad you talked about Min being problematic when she pushes up on Rand. But I much prefer Elayne and Aviendha as sister-wives, because I feel like it’s poetic. Elayne is (was) Daughter-Heir and so was Rand’s mother. Aviendha is (was) a Far Daeris Mai, and so was Rand’s mother. Aiel allow for sister-wives, and Elayne and Aviendha became first-sisters. Min seemed like the plot device here. But I do think that Rand being ta’veren was a part of it. During the flicker flicker flicker in TGH, it seems like Elayne, Aviendha, and Min were all possibilities based on different turns his life might have taken. So I actually support him and the three ladies
"He rescued you and he is a really nice, you should fall in love with him ..." ... That's not the way it works at all (personal experience as well). I.m.h.o. Robert did a huge mistake on that. Also I think that Robert did incorporate some of his personal romantical fantasy wishes without necessarily and fully caring about whether this would be comprehensible in real life. But we also have to consider in what time these ideas for the books and the whole storyline came up. Some decades later I guess we are able think a lot different about such topics. I remember, my parents have significantly different opinions and views on certain topics of romance and relationship than I have grown with all the open discussions around these things nowadays.
I know I am getting to this video really late lol like a year after it was posted, but I just wanted to say that I am right there with you with most of your opinions on the specific relationships in the book. I really hope the tv show can do better to make us believe in the relationships and from the trailer it already looks like that are doing that. Also when it comes to Rand and his different relationships, I think a great direction for the show to go would be to have Rand and Min's relationship be the only real one he is in, the show doesn't need him to also love Elayne and or Aviendha. Him and Min really do have the most real of those three relationships, they are actually together and she is there for him no matter what. I do agree with the opinions I have seen that Min's character lost a lot of her personality throughout the series, the whole "sexy lamp shade" idea, so fleshing her out better would be great for them.
Rand's three girlfriends always seemed like a nod to his heritage, each on some level. Royal Andoran like his birth mother, Aiel for his birth father's side, and small-town-west-Andor for Tam. At this point I think it makes sense for the show to follow the books at least somewhat as far as Rand's relationships go, but if they decide to explore one of the ladies' characters in more depth I think it should be Min, too.
I agree with your characterization of the romance. I hate all of the rand relationships except for Min. Also agree with the transient nature of "pillow friends." I'm not a lesbian, but even that name seems inconsequential and kinda like he's playing it off.
I may have posted this before, but it's one of my favorite passages in all of WoT, and it deserves all the love it gets:
"I am not a king, Nynaeve. Just a man. A man without as much to his name as even the meanest farmer's croft."
Nynaeve’s voice steadied.
"Some women don't ask for land, or gold. Just the man…Some men are strong enough. I know one such."
If there could have been any doubt, her look left none to whom she meant.
"All I have is a sword, and a war I cannot win, but can never stop fighting."
"I've told you I care nothing for that. Light, you've made me say more than is proper already. Will you shame me to the point of asking you?"
"I will never shame you. I will hate the man you choose because he is not me, and love him if he makes you smile…I must check the horses.”
Nynaeve remained there kneeling after he had gone. Sleep or no, Rand closed his eyes. He did not think the Wisdom would like it if he watched her cry.
For all practical purposes, Rand and Elayne don't really have a relationship. They just don't spend enough time together. I think the only reason it exists at all is to have the dragon reborn father the queen of andor's children. Which is completely irrelevant to the actual story at hand. We never meet those kids.
I feel like part of the reason Rand's three relationships that I agree don't work so well as a polyamorous is because of its set up. It'll become a scenario of Rand with all 3, then Rand with Min while Avi and Elayne are together. Since Min doesn't have a relationship with them, it just becomes two couples who sometimes share the guy, but mostly stick to their own. I'm sure there are poly relationships like that that work, but in this case it ends up feeling more like they're swingers. Elayne and Avi are together while Min is with Rand. But oh, Elayne wants a little fun with Rand and Min allows it. Just with these 4 in particular it doesn't really feel poly. Rafe has his work cut out for him to make this work without diminishing any of the relationships.
I always disliked how later on Elayne and Rand act like Elayne taught Rand so much about leadership and running nations, because they only dated and did that stuff for the last few days they were in the Stone. They were in the Stone for maybe a month and most of that was Rand trying to teach himself alone while pouring over old books on the Kareatheon cycle as he tried to figure out what he needed to do next. When they do become a couple it is mostly just high school constantly making out in corners stuff. In FoH Moiraine is the one who actually crams as much leadership and political knowledge as humanly possible into his head with her quickly running out time before her confrontation with Lanfear.
If anything she taught him that goofing off is required to keep your sanity.
@@aviendha1154 thats not a nice thing to say about your sister-wife
@@fekrekalnigatu9999 haha
AWESOME video! You really break things down so well and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I've always felt like the Morgase-Tallanvor relationship was somewhat disgusting and forced. Totally agree with that. Keep making really good content. This is great.
*blushing!*
I like the idea of Rand breaking up with his girls, but I really like Min and Rand. Perhaps he could just end up with her? I guess they'd also have to cut the bonding scene then.
Androl and Pevara are for me the best couple by far. Their chemistry was amazing
"She gives in and eats his cookies" Best Quote!!!
I'm torn. I agree that a series of sequential relationships makes far more sense for Rand. It is cleaner, and would feel less forced. On the other side of the coin, being atypical, I enjoy the anime feel to that relationship(s) too. Either way, I would be happy, because the essence of Rand's relationships aren't essential to his mission of defeating the Dark One. Do the women help in his mission? YES! Could any of them provided that help without romance? ABSOLUTELY! Yet... for the show... I want them to follow the books... See didn't I say I was Torn. :)
@@moss2701 Haha! You are so confused, lol!
All I can think of is Buffy talking to Angel.
Buffy:
"Okay. I'm cookie dough... I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day, I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat m- or enjoy warm, delicious, cookie me, then... that's fine. That'll be then... when I'm done."
Angel:
"Any thoughts on who might enjoy... Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?"
I think Jordan only used the romances to reveal more about characters. I don't see this as a weakness in a fantasy series. He wasn't trying to write deep involved romances.
Another thing, this is wartime, their lives could end at any moment. Consider how many instant romances actually happened during the Second World War. With death imminent people cling to something normal and good to displace the terrors of their lives.
This isn't something I'd thought about a ton, but I really like the way you broke it down. Great video! A lot of the relationships don't make a ton of sense if you look at them a bit deeper, but I wish that Rand could've focused more on his platonic love for Egwene and that we could've seen them impacted whatsoever by basically breaking up with the person they thought they would have married since they were 10 years old. Also, Min is the only girl of the 3 who really saw Darth Rand at all, and the fact that she stayed through that stuff cements her as the most logical relationship for Rand to me.
we all know why Mat and Tuon works....Mat was scarred by Nynaeve to never loving a woman with hair ;)
I always look forward to your videos. Your outlook always teaches me new ways to look at things without the whole "You must agree with me and think this way" vibe. You show me new ways to understand and appreciate both the wonders and flaws or my favourite saga. Thank you ❤️
Thank you so much! That's really kind to say!
Gotta be honest, I don't want them to change much in the show EXCEPT the romantic relationships and I've not thought about this nearly as much as you have! You've opened my eyes to a lot of things that I'd never even considered before too, which I really appreciate. I'll be thinking about all of these things as I continue my re-re-re-re-re-re-read of the series.
I think one of the best is actually Egaenin and Bayle Domon, Captain o’ de Spray. I think it’s because they’re both clearly mature adults and they’re both boat captains and because (unlike Tuon) Egaenin gets over her whole “being cool with slavery” thing. (So much so that she lets Egwene bond her as a warder.)
But yeah, I pretty much dislike all the rest except Lan and Nynaeve. And I think I only like theirs because it is the only one that really matters to the plot, with the whole “ride for Malkier” thing.
Also, what if we just dump the foursome for the show and pair Rand and Min and Elayne and Aviendha? Might work?
that's very true
The Elayne/Avi stuff that is in the books already supports a relationship. You would have to do some re-writes because it's TV, but otherwise it's fine.
But if both of them are not somewhat obsessed with romancing Rand the whole subplot where Avi is actively pushing him away to avoid betraying her oath about "Keeping Rand Safe for Elayne" does not work. For example, that little tidbit where she reforges her spears into a thngamabob (belt buckle IIRC?) for him and lets him assume that he got that because she hates him, and then her next scene she has been switched (presumably either for lying to him about hating him, or for bothering the Wise Ones by asking for a punishment)...
So it could work, but there's some stuff in Books 5 and 6 that would have to be majorly rewritten, and the whole Elayne is pregnant subplot woul,d have to be changed, etc.
Nicholas Benjamin Those are great points! I hadn’t really considered the downstream effects of making such a change.
I think that could work... no foursome, just two couples... but either way, the foursome just irks me.
@@nicholasbenjamin3826 Yeah, the pregnancy (pregnancies? Is Aviendha pregnant at the end of the books? Or is she gonna hook up with Rand 2.0 later?) is a big one that would have to be adjusted for this to work. There are always consequences!
I think you gave the Moiraine-Siuan romance a bit too little credit based on what we see in New Spring. It is actually my favourite romance, because where most of RJ's romances are "Boom we're in love!", in New Spring we see actual puppy love between Moiraine and Siuan. It's a bit hidden away as if it's just exposition, but we get plenty of POV's from Moiraine going along the lines of:
"I'm sitting here mulling over whatever issue is in front of me. Oh how annoying it is, but there must be some way out. I bet Siuan would know how these pieces fit together. Siuan is so smart, she could figure out any problem. There is just something about her - her intelligence, her humor, her fish puns - that makes me think she could figure out anything. I wonder what she's doing right now? Probably something really cool and useful. Siuan totally would be doing something amazing, she's just the type. She's so wonderful and capable. Did I mention she's smart? She's super intelligent let me tell you. I wish she was here so we could talk about... *ahem* The problem in front of me. Oh right, the problem. Where was I?"
We get fewer POVs from Siuan than we get from Moiraine, but Siuan thinks the exact same way.
But this romance does get brushed off, as you say, as mostly "just a phase". Moiraine and Siuan have their incredibly sweet and wholesome romance, but then they "grow up" and end up with "good stable men" by the end.
One funny thing about Rand's love square is that, in a series where miscommunication/lack of communication is such a prevalent and recurring theme, the girls resolving this is one of the most outstanding pieces of adult communication. The girls all have their moment of "Wait, I'm competing against my best friend? I'M GONNA F#$@ING KILL HE- no, you know what, I'm better than this. Our friendship is too valuable to let some dumb guy get between us. We can work this out. We can talk about it. Let's talk."
Yeah, their romance in New Spring is good while it's happening, except for the fact that neither of them seem to think (even during it) that it will last... like, they seem to accept that this is a temporary thing, and that very much irks me while I'm reading it.
Lezbi Nerdy that’s my problem with the Moiraine Siuan relationship in the books as well. But that’s an easy fix for the show and I hope they do that.
It was never established as something very deep and profound, enough to center them in a desire for any long term relationship (even at the time, with what both said they dreamed of their future - before even the dragon was known to them). And both of them married the mission more than anything, and happily separated for years. Towards the start of the main series, I believe the total number of actual correspondences between them is what, two letters? They both became strong independent women, not in any sort of relationship - because they both became consumed by a passion to save the world, in two very different ways. I agree with Lezbi in this. I think they would both be better served if they were allowed to be that, and not lessoned by having to be paired. At least not in this way, especially when they would have to be together a bit more to make it work, and given the backstory that makes up the core of these characters, something I don't want them unravel just to make them get that time.
Instead, this seems to be a bit of a whirldwind romance, while they were kids for all intents and purposes, and both dreaming together of becoming greens and marrying princes - their words. They did love each other, but they grew, and they grew apart, for greater things. And that - is perfectly ok with me. They are not seeking high school flames anymore.
One thing I find interesting about Rands relationships is at the very end of the series. I've been thinking if its even possible for him to be presence in their lives and his kids lives.
Thank for your final comments! I completely agree that a new refreshing take would be to show that people evolve over time and it's good to love someone. But you don't have to in love now just because you loved then.
After watching your video, I realized that Rand's three loves are the three main phases of his adult life...
Elayne loves the young, attractive, naive, farm boy. Teaches him things would never learn otherwise. Aviendha loves Rand, the growing young man and emerging leader. Min loves Rand thru his trauma and integration of Lews Therin.
It's almost what I would call the three phases of adulthood...The teenager turing into an adult, discovering that you are responsible for your choices and adults aren't all knowing. The "college age" young adult - learning new things. Thinking new ways, learning to assert yourself. And finally what I consider full adulthood...
Learning that you are a screwed up person. Learning your flaws, learning how to work with those flaws, accepting those flaws, and hopefully making them a strength. Then, finally, loving yourself and not giving a sh#t what other people think. It took you decades to get where are; and they don't matter.
I completely agree about the love 'square'. I think it would have been great if Rand and Elayne's romance just dwindled into non-existence due to time and distance (which it did anyway). Then Rand and Aviendah's relationship could have ended with a big fight (maybe over his continued insistence that they had to marry). Aviendah would have then gone to Elayne to make up her toh over entering a relationship with Rand when he and Elayne weren't technically ended, and they could have become best friends/sisters because of their platonic love for each other, not because of Aiel customs over sharing a husband. It would have then been a natural progression for Rand to then enter a more fully mature relationship with Min, who was his only 'real' relationship anyway. And my god, why did Min have to be a virgin? I mean for a start she was older than Rand , and she noted many times how she was always attracted to older men before him, it would have made sense that she had had sex before. And the fact that Rand got three virgins and got to keep them all is just gross.
With Moiraine's Cairhienin upbringing and Daes Dae'mar, she probably found out quite a bit more about Thom than she spoke of in The Shadow Rising. She may also have encountered him in her tests for Aes Sedai, and her trip to Rhuidean could have shown her more as well. Remember her line that went something like "I probably know the face of the man I'll marry better than you," or something similar? I think Moiraine's knowledge of Thom was another case of there being more info learned off-screen than we know. I suspect she knew very well what kind of person Thom was and what kind of relationship they would or at least could have.
I thought the "swooning" wasn't too overly done and I took it as just wanting to relax among friends after being freed. As for a relationship, maybe she was sick and tired of chasing plots and the dragon reborn and was looking forward to a life with far less of those types of concerns.
Concerning Rand plus 3, might there have been some reason for Rand to be bonded by multiple women? Did that give him some advantage he needed? This wouldn't necessarily impact their relationship, but I am just speculating.
Just my 2 cents.
Nice vid.
The bonding... i actually edited that part out of my video cause it was already really long... but yeah, that is something that (if my idea were to be put into place) would take some work to fit into the story, cause I think it probably is helpful? I think warders gain something from a bond and Rand essentially becomes warder to three women. I could see it possibly as something done to counter the unwilling bond he has with Alanna, maybe? But... it would take some narrative work to get it to make sense.
As a relatively straight man I had the same reaction to Lan's speech to Nynaeve in EotW.
Seriously! Interesting things happened in my pants when I read that...
The way I see it was rand had elayne; a weird messed up one with avienda. before finally settling down with Min. and Elayne and Avi had an awkward start, but got to be friends and more.
The bit in winters heart is .... kind of weird as rand didn't *really* have a say in a it; he is almost like a sperm doner.
The relationships in WoT feels like sitcom love. Core group of characters cross-date each other without any seeming animosity and then random side characters pop up who the main characters all fall in love with at the slightest drop of a hat.
I'm just going through a re-read of Fires of Heaven and a lot of the relationships you mention run through this book. The most problematic of all of them though is Elayne/Thom. The interactions between the two of them given the age difference and past history. I really struggle with those bits.
Great video by the way.
I think the show should do what you suggested, have Rand get with Elayne, have them break up, then get with Aviendha, then break up, then get with Min. But then I think Min should die when Rand confronts Semirhage for the last time. I think Rand should be without a girlfriend during his dark night of the soul that leads to Veins of Gold. And after that, maybe he can get back with Elayne or Aviendha or just stay single until the Last Battle. He skips out on all of them at the end anyway, might as well do it before that.
Ooooh, you are colder than I could ever be! But...heh, what else could I expect from AI?
I hope Min doesn't die tbh because if Rand survives in the end and no one knows he is still there anymore, it would be a rather sad ending for him to me. Okaaay, he doesn't need a woman to be happy but if no one knew, then why not kill him off at the Last Battle? Or will he be a lone wanderer wanting to see the world like Arya?
That thing about the romantic love being the only worthy one is why I thought Frozen was so refreshing!
Yeah. The "true love" part was admittedly kinda cringy (I know some people might like that, it's just not my thing), but at least they tried to mix things up with it, and display some non-romantic love.
Thank you so much for this video.. Rand and his harem were the major reason I walked away from this series, largely for the arguments you put forward about Rand being at different stages of personal growth. My preference was, as yours, for Rand to experience a relationship and then respect the person he professed to love, enough to end a relationship and process it before diving into the next one. The other reason I walked away was because Nynaeve was my girl and I was heavily invested in the Nynaeve and Lan romance. When I realised that Myrelle had Lan's bond, her method of 'recovery' for Lan and her continued refusal to pass the bond to Nynaeve even when they married, I peaced outt. I did love what I'd read enough to get a brother hooked on the series despite my dissatisfaction. The Amazon Prime series has brought me back and I adored episode 4. I'll enjoy watching Lan and Nynaeve fall in love for as long as that enjoyment outweighs my general lack of enthusiasm for other relationships that are likely to be featured. Thanks again for reassuring me that even superfans such as yourself can have issues with the way romance and romantic relationships are portrayed in the series.
I can't disagree with any of your points. I love this series, but you are SO right. I think this is something that Rafe can "course correct" in the TV series. I especially like the idea of Elaine, Avienda and Min relationship. I agree it would be better if it had been sequential with the first two breaking up, but staying close (as people do). Like you said, you can break up with someone that you loved, stay close and support her either relationships because you still love her. Thank you. This is one of the better discussions of the "romance" within the Wot. Thanks.
ive just read the series for the first time and i agree with almost all of this. i personally saw the lan/nynaeve romance right away and it was frankly one of the main factors that made me stick with the series at all. i was strongly debating dropping it but That Scene™️ at the end of eye of the world had me hooked. i HAD to know what happens with them, even though my friend told me it doesn’t unfold for many many books to come. tom and moaraine make zero sense and were unnecessary, completely agree there. suan and gareth i personally really enjoyed bc they were both characters i liked and their dynamic was extra enjoyable for me and honestly it didnt feel like a replacement focus for suans character at all, more like egwane was DEMANDING all of her attention until she suddenly wasnt and suan had been holding BACK all along but now shes free to have feelings and be a PERSON not a symbol of power. i thought it was really sweet, all he did was support her and thats what i like to see in a man!
As for the three girlfriends.... i hate that. i always hated it. its an awful idea. main point i was mad at while reading. completely unnecessary, not relevant for any plot or chracter reason..... i hated it so much i didnt even think of the option to just date them sequentially, i just want it GONE!!! and not to be nitpicky but if avilayne get “togerher” in the show it wouldnt be lesbian rep at all cos theyre still very much also sleeping with a man. i prefer the polyamory over just Big Dick Rand And The Harem but in an ideal world he would just date Min and NOT because she saw it in a dream and decided to rub up on him until he starts dreaming abt it too. Im sorry to the wot supremacists but this one thing (and some others obviously) put me off so much that i dont think i will ever reread this series. unless its like just nynaeve cuts or smth... im not going through all the harem bs again when everything said in this video is so true - there was absolutely. no. need.
The romance that bothered me the most had to have been Egwene and Gawyn- it might just be because I dislike Gawyn so much as a character, but it felt to me like their romance and bonding were set up just to nerf Egwene in the last battle.
I think you've convinced me on not shipping Aviendha and Elayne as their own couple within the four. I'd probably rather them not be with Rand and just with each other, or just deeply loving friends/sisters as in the books.
As a expansion of your 'break up' idea, I've though of a somewhat interesting approach for it.
Relationship 1: Rand and Elayne have a typical teenage romance, which is egged on by the sword maidens. but Elayne discovers after some time that after the 'newness' is worn off that it doesn't satisfy her, all the while Avienda and her have become BFF. At the end before Rand leave she breaks it off, but doesn't really makes it clear to the wool-headed sheepherder. Avienda does not know about this break-up. Rand is very confused about this and Avienda does not help this confusion at all.
Relationship 2: Avienda and Rand are somewhat forced in close proximity with each other for extent periods of time. This is by design from the wise ones. They wanted to solves 2 problems with one stone: 1 Hopefully binding the dragon Reborn (and the Car'a'carn) to the Aiel people more permanently. 2 As a lesson to Avienda on how to be a wise women and their relationship with chieftans and leaders of different tribes. As want with 2 very stressed and confused teenagers that have gone through a lot together, this boils over in that awkward scene in the iglo. Avienda realize her mistake and her feelings for Elayne and breaks it off. Rand is even more confused and pines after Avienda for the rest of the trip.
Relationship 3: Min and Rand are 2 awkward young adults with not a lot of experience in have a relationship. Min knows from her viewings that a relationship with the boy is in the books for her and isn't against it. I fact she finds him attractive and actively and awkwardly pursue the young man. Queue a lovely young romance.
Relationship 4: Elayne and Avienda, i've no idea how to develop this..... but i can only tell this: The only reason that she has sex with Rand is that she needed an husband or an heir to stake a legitimate claim on the Andoran throne. I have no idea how to make this arrangement happen naturally nor why they Warder bond Rand, but the reason that Min's allows this is VIEWINGS and her almost compulsive need the follow what the pattern shows her
Extra Theory: Why are there no female Warders?
Seriously, I don't believe that in the +2500 years of that bond existing that Brigitte is the only female Warder in history. The syncing of the monthly visitor isn't a big enough reason for the possibility of having a female Warder to be a negative.
My theory is thus: For a warder-bond-weave to work there needs to already be a preexisting bond in place. Be it: mutual attraction, mutual respect, friendship, familial love, or any other kind of 'strong' bond. It need to be a sufficiently strong bond for it to work. As you can see some of those options are prelude toward the future relationship between Aes Sedai and her Warder(s). Thus have a female warder created a social stigma in the white tower over the years. I base this of Elaida's throwaway comment of having a 'pillow friend' during her Novice years and describing it as some sort of fase during that periode of her girlhood in the tower. Like it is something to hide as a Aes Sedai. This leads me to believe that this particular social stigma has had serious consequences in the past for ambitious Sedai. Making it impossible to rise in station as a Aes Sedai with a female warder.
If this theory is correct then Elayne bonding of Birgitte and how the Aes Sedai treat her after it shine a whole new light on the affair.
What do you think?
Great discussion of a nuanced topic. I found myself agreeing with you even on those few points where my opinion differs somewhat. No matter what the show has some work to do to make all of the relationships work better on screen.
Jordan's great at characters, and once the characters have declared their true love their interact in ways that are extremely believable. But I can't think of a time he did a run-up to the declaration that was good. Particularly on first read-thru. Tuon/Mat was good, the pattern was forcing them together and she forced him to romance her anyway, but that was mostly Sanderson. And, yes I am fully agreed that Tuon is an evil character. Entertaining as fuck to read, but her hobby involves torturing grown adults until they become willing weapons of war for literal Imperialism.
As for "lessening" the female characters, I agree. He's clearly a baby boomer-second-wavish-style feminist, and one of the Second Wave's huge complaints was that none of their male peers would marry them, so he probably thought that having all his women married off to equal-ranking-male-characters at the end of the books was feminist. In fact I think he has one of the Aes Sedai characters tell the girl's team early in the books that the reason no sisters are married is that dudes can't handle strong chicks. But he ended up with a bunch of female characters who didn't have suitably-ranked male mates, and he soleved that mostly be demoting the chicks, which sucks.
The whole story is kind of structured around this. Everyone ends up in a hetero power-couple, except the Poly Quartet, several of those relationships were clearly forced on their participants by the Pattern (for example that time Avi pops Rand's cherry). They're gonna have to do something with that for the show, because hetero-power-couples are no longer the only feminist dream relationship, but I don't know what exactly. Rafe will certainly do something n this, but he's also going to make us WAFO (Watch and Find Out).
As for the male gazeyness of an Elayna/Avi relationship. Given that Avi is a redhead, they're both fit 20-somethings, Elayne is at one point described as unreasonably pretty by one of her hetero girlfriends, etc. there's not really a way to ship them that is 0% male gazey in 2020 America. But if you hire the right actresses, and change the dialogue a teensy but, it would be...fine...Think about how this plays on screen:
Rand has Egwene as platonic GF for Seasons 1-4, then in Season 5 she hands him off to Elayne and they make out a couple times, then he's accompanied by Avi (who fucks him once, while under extreme pressure by Fate itself), she promptly goes to meet Elayne, Seasons 7/8 are entirely their lesbian relationship, Season 9 has the bonding/fucking, he goes off and then both Elayne and Avi ignore him for all personal business until Avi uses him as a graduation present in like season 14. Guys are going to male gaze the heck out of this, but there's just not much on-screen support that the gay relationship is less important to them personally than their relationship with Rand.
BTW: This doesn't really directly impact any of your criticisms of Jordan's writing, but it is a useful bit of context: are you familiar with Jordan's friend John M Ford? He's a fairly well-regarded but poorly selling author of Jordan's generation who only survived as long as he did due to Medicaid and being paid to draw Wheel of Time maps. There was a bit of a media frenzy around him in the long-long-ago time of November 2019, and one of the things that was mentioned was that his polyamorous relationship was an inspiration for the quartet.
No! I haven't heard of Ford, that's interesting! I had actually heard that RJ himself had 3 girlfriends at one point, and thought "if I can do it, surely the savior of the world can do it", but... well, I think I read that on reddit and who knows how reliable a source that is, lol!
And your comment about second-wave feminism is very interesting, I never thought of that, actually, and it makes me look at this differently. Not that I suddenly like the romances, but it makes me have a different perspective on the intention behind writing them that way, which is cool!
Loving this you got new fan!!!!
Best love story is Birgitte and Gaidal Cain. Over centuries across and against time.
Well thought out and presented. I don’t have problems with Rand being with any of the three, but the idea of it being true love doesn’t make sense. Each girl decides she is going to end up with him. I like that they seem to have that control, but Min and Avi have been told that’s what is going to happen so doesn’t seem like true love when fate controls. Rand accepts their telling him they love him as it’s the only happy things that happen to him. Not questioning that they all have young love relationships, just doesn’t seem like the four will last forever. End of series the girls all had different focuses in their futures.
Rand always had voice in his head crying for his true love. If she had been reborn wouldn’t part of his reward be to find her again after he went off to new life? That had been a mature relationship in his first life.
Do any of us Need a romance? For me romance is for joy and for a level of conection that requires a high level of trust. Emotions are much stronger during times of crisis so the excuse for the quick romance in RJ's books. It would have been nice if the romance in Wot could have been flushed out. Maybe 2,3,4 or 5 more novellas added to the series. This leads to my final thought. Such a large, rich world. I want to see it expanded and new stories evolved.
Thanks for your videos I enjoy and learn new information. They are also fun.
If you can’t write romance you probably shouldn’t touch it
Thought provoking as always!! I totally agree RJ didn’t develop relationships well. Definitely something I’d love to see improved in the TV show! This video has made me reevaluate the “love-quadrangle” relationship. I’ve been leaning towards a polyamorous between them all, but I see your point with the whole male gaze issue. There has to be a way to make the relationships believable without feeling exploitative.
Rand's relationships never bothered me... more than the other ones. (RJ just wasn't that good at relationships. Have that been mentioned before? ;) ) To me it just seemed like a poly relationship as badly written as the other relationships. ;)
I have every hope that the showrunners will be able to do that better than RJ. XD
Can they change it to three relationships, one after the other? Sure. Do they have to? No, but I wouldn't hate it either. I fully expect it to stay, though.
When it comes to Aviendha specifically... to ME it's the one time that "I hate to love you" works for me. Well... in the context of relationships in WoT. ^^
It's my personal opinion... but I can see how Aviendha fights against love just because she doesn't want to be forced. Not even by "fate". Making herself (and Rand) miserable because of it. Maybe I like it because (to me) it is contrasted by Min and how she choses not to fight it.
Still... it would have worked better if RJ had been more adept at this part of writing, I guess. ;)
The same can't be said for Perrin and Faile. I do NOT like their love/hate thing and feel relieved when they just are in love. :P But (as you also said) they're young and dumb. ^^
Siuan and Gareth Bryne is just... dumb.
However... I actually like Tuon and Mat. I think it's because I'm not ambivalent about Tuon. I don't like all of the Seanchan culture (how could anyone?). But when it comes to Tuon I genuinly like some parts of her and accept that I hate other parts. She's a complicated character and I enjoy how she's written (just like I love hating other characters). So without that ambivalence getting in the way I can probably say that Mat and Tuon is one of my favourite relationships.
(And yes, Lan and Nyn is the best one. ;) )
All of what you have written. Brilliant. The Aviendha part, the Mat/Tuon part, Perrin/Faile etc.pp.
@@shantilaselucia8107 to be fair... not all of it is mine... esp the faile/perrin part has benen said repeatesly, i think. ;)
I didn't see these as fitting any of these cliche's; because the whole series implicitly falls under another one. Because of the 'pattern of the ages' 'Wheel of Time" thing; FATE is firmly in control of all these relationships. Serious lack of free-will going on. Very much like The Belgariad where 'prophecy' forced couples together and it was waved away as 'this is your reward for doing what you're supposed to do.' It's kind of lazy; but it's what you get when you create a world with a guiding (controlling) higher-power.
While I agree with you that the relationships with Rand as the pivot feel problematic, I only partially agree with you as to why. Yes, it is a problem that Elayne and Aviendha are separate from him for so long and that they are all essentially different people by the time the relationship "comes together" towards the end of the story. However, for me the larger issue is the way that Elaine and Aviendha and, to a lesser extent, Min, treat Rand as an object for them to partition amongst themselves. The bonding, the Aiel marriage, all of this was decided with little to no input from him. Speaking as a bisexual polyamorous man who is currently in 4 stable relationships, this is not a healthy or stable way to be poly. From day one communication is lacking amongst and between all the participants of this polycule. When the showrunner says that he wants to make the relationship more poly, I'm hoping that that doesn't just mean showing romance between the women of the relationship, but that it shows a more healthy relationship overall with better communication among all four participants. I don't think the story would be better served by having Rand be a serial monogamist, but rather by having representation of a legitimately healthy polyamorous relationship. That being said, I agree with you about most of the other points that you raised about the other relationships, especially Thom and Moiraine, because the only foreshadowing for that relationship was prophecy, there was no actual relationship between them before the rescue and it was just terrible. And Siuan and Bryne makes me roll my eyes so hard. And Tallanvor is SO SKEEVY. I am very much looking forward to watching your video about Tuon and Mat, because while I found there to be a lot wrong with their relationship, it was also interesting because it was a relationship where both parties were only getting involved because of different prophecies. Not just one, like Min or Aviendha getting involved with Rand because of prophecies that they knew but he was ignorant of initially, but both parties only being involved because of Prophecy. Mat because of the answers from the snakes that he would marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and Tuon because of the foretelling from a damane about the fox that makes the ravens fly. It adds an interesting dynamic and subtext to their relationship that I am very interested to hear your take on.
I am so sorry that you’ve been approached like that by men. That’s skeezy AF. I agree with what you’re saying about it seeming like a “lesser relationship”. I’m not sure what the solution is, here; I hadn’t thought about breaking up the timeshare ladies from Rand, but I can definitely get on board with this.
So, I've always looked at WoT as layers, choke full of "throw away comments" that return later. (a certain metal tower spotted in EOTW?)
Plus, the most central theme is a Pattern guiding the weaving. And a built in "reward" mechanism, which included relationships. /shrug It's a trope. Especially from the '90's. Luckily, it's quite clear that all are deliriously happy with outcomes.
I feel that the subtlest romance layer was Moraine and Thom. WoT was all about alluding to what had happened off page, but ALWAYS from someone's POV. Sometimes you catch the asides.... sometimes they are never there. I WISH there were more M&T scenes. But that's also the beauty of it. The "elder" mentors, both rebels in their own way, choosing to have broader power, than having near absolute in single, wealthy, domain. Then having to deal with these very important, world changing kids? Plus, they both "knew" of each other. Right from the beginning. Perhaps they met before? Between NS and EOTW? Yet another "off-page," more deeper meaning behind the current scenes? It's arguably one of my favourite relationships, top 5, possibly 3. Just because of how unstated it it. I wish there had been 2 more books. Another POV from both M&T would probably be enough to not feel as rushed to tie things off as MoL was.
Min: From how vague some of the writing was, leaving it to the reader's head cannon; I always felt that merely sitting in his lap, prude Two Rivers boy he truly was, would be more than enough to set the redhead to stammering and blushing. :) And then it became a game. And then it became more. Don't forget, Min met him first. When he was innocent, when he was an unworldly, young, truthful boy. Also being pushed by the Pattern. Didn't one of her POV's she was thinking she didn't want to scare him into ordering her away. So, push a line, open a door, tease it out, hope the "bluff" is called... /shrug possibly
I like your channel and your fresh perspective. I also agree there are too many couples that Jordan pairs up. It is unnecessary. But maybe Jordan had trouble believing a person is 'complete' without a SO or he was trying to close the story without any loose ends?
If they choose to have these romances in the show, they will have to make them more convincing. But I think that it is far easy to see a relationship forming on film than in a book... All those non-verbal actions that clearly show interest. There are no non-verbal actions in written works. Will, they have time to make these relationships complete?
It will be fun if they lay a bunch of false trails with Egwene and Perrin as a possible couple... maybe they will expand the sexual tension between many characters... We know Mat would hit anyone who is willing and doesn't know what Daughter of the Nine Moons means.
How much will sex be apart of the story? There is an awful amount of plot to work through that has nothing to do with couplings...
Shouldn't Galad sweep some poor unsuspecting person off their feet. Eqwene is so enamored with him at one point, shouldn't something happen? Why did she pick Gawyn? Was Jordan saying some people are just bad at evaluating suitors?
Enough of my musing.... wish they would just get a trailer out to us!
Oh man, can you imagine how crazy we'll all be when that trailer finally comes out? Collective heads exploding!
I honestly like the breakup idea better than the poliamory to be perfectly honest
It’s a much better and more interesting notion
You don’t see it very often which is an interesting idea I’m gonna have to explore that in one of my books
Oh yeah, the romantic relationships are one of the weakest aspects of RJ's characterization.
Call it an excuse, but I figure that in a world with destiny, accurate prophecy, true reading of the omens/pattern, foretelling, reincarnation & soulmates... I suppose it makes sense that love at first sight & couples that were fated to be, fit into the the fantasy setting.
It all clashes with the realism of the other sociological aspects baked in to the rest of the interpersonal relationships of the characters. 🤷
I know I’m late to the game having only discovered your channel recently and working my way through your backlog. Wanna start with saying I enjoy your content, and though I often disagree with an aspect or two, your content is improving my rereads. I have to say that I agree that breakups are necessary and should have continued. One of my favorite things is that from the start we’re told Rand and Egwene are essentially betrothed. His first (I think) instance of channeling is to give Bela the extra edge because he’s afraid for her. Min tells him early on that it’s not going to work out, but we still see that assumption of their connection at least through book two and I really enjoy their breakup in book 4.
I actually thought of Avienda’s relationship with him as a really well-done version of “I hate you because I love you”, because for her, she sees that she is going to betray her friend and is in a way trying to sabotage the relationship. Additionally, she still wants to be a maiden, she sees the romance as lessening her. It works well in the context that it is part of her resistance to growing. Not a huge fan of the wise one’s forcing him to “eat Rand’s cookie” as you put it either. Though I always assumed one of them dreamt it, even though it’s never said outright.
I hope the show treats the references to some of the Aes Sedi being lesbian with a bit more seriousness, and maybe demonstrates Rhuarc, Amys, and Lian as a better, healthy polyamorous relationship.
OMG I never knew I wish they would have just broke up in the story until now. I actively despise the foursome romance and secretly hope it's removed in the show.
Thank you so much for this video! You nailed it! I hope that they do just have rand "date" the girls one at a time and end it with min. It's not really important to the plot of the story for all 4 to be together. Great job! You won me over. I'm definitely subscribing. Thanks again!
You are right, RJ tends to rely upon the mystery of love to define some of the couplings. There’s not a ton of build up to “oh gosh I can’t live without them suddenly”. I didn’t see a lot of chemistry in some of the couples and was left thinking “hmm oh ok”
But great great video as always!
@@leafcastbrotherdan725 Thanks!!
Kinda echoing everyone else here, but you summed up my thoughts pretty well too! Especially on the topic of the polyamorous relationship. And as a straight male, hearing your explanation on certain issues that could be there in the show if Elayne and Aviendha is added as a "mini-relationship" isn't something I even thought about, so seeing it pointed out was interesting to consider. I hope they manage to handle the romances, and _especially_ the foursome, well in the adaptation.
Very well put, though I must say, as a straight man, I’ve never wanted to ask my partner to engage in lesbian sexual acts for my enjoyment. I’m sorry men have asked that of you, but please don’t judge us all based on them.
I personally quite liked the Aviendha romance, but perhaps that is because the flirtation was more genuine and subtle than in the other relationships.
Anime and the power of friendship: Am I a joke to you?
I dont care what anyone says, Androl and Pavara are the best romance in WOT.
I'd like too add only two ideas.
1. Perrin and Faile. They are toxic. But I think that it is thematically underlooked that her being violent with Perrin is another clear attempt at subversion. He's a massive warrior blacksmith. And she is tall but slender. The woman in that relationship is the abuser. If you think of it from a different lens it makes it almost seem like the entire thing is an homage to toxic relationships. As I'm writing this I am struggling to think of a single healthy one. And almost all of them subvert our ideas of who is a perpetrator and who is a victim. Morgase is the height of power and she gets compelled, violated and stalked. Powerful people can still get abused. Mat and Tylin. Women can exert pressure and commit SA. Egwene and Gawyn. Sexual attraction can be just as strong and blinding for women as it can for men. Even Elayne and Aviendha can be interpreted as RJ showing the love of two women can be just as strong and deeply bonding as what either has with Rand. (Speaking of pretending things didn't happen I choose to believe RJ only didn't make them a couple because of societal/editorial pressure as far as I am concerned the evidence is there) Rand and Min. Starts with the age gap but continues on showing her as the strong, stable, rational, smart partner for Rand. He needs her debatably more than she needs him.
And 2. The portion of Aviendha's story that you would consider the "hate you so much it's actually love" trope, I see differently. I see it as an incredibly realistic reaction to what happened too her in the rings. She is rebelling, and angry and frustrated. She's a microcosm of Rands struggle to accept. She does it faster and with more grace ,IMO, but it's very true to her character. And I would lightly add I always viewed the Wise Ones pushing Aviendha to be around Rand as partly motivated by their "training" they make the apprentices do everything they hate the most in order to "teach them" how to put aside their pride and personal emotions to make them "wiser" and better able to provide truly "neutral" leadership. I agree with all that you said about it being icky and messed up. I just added that little 'explainer' for myself I guess. Lol
“Lan can get it” 🤣
He definitely can!
Older men writing romance and or sex usually ends cringy, makes my toes curl to read. lol
You just expressed everything that I felt about Rand and his ladies 👑👑👑 they just represent three phases of his growth and it's 100% okay, they absolutely DONT need to all be together especially if they don't even actually all end up with Rand in the end since he's "dead", so it's all just pointless.
I'll just give my little personal two cents on the Tallanvor / Morgase is that they're the classic courtly love type of romance (which I'm very weak for) so I kiiiiind of forgive -some- things mentioned (except everyone pushing Morgase in his arms, that's never a cute look)
I completely agree with you on the Rand relationships. I have always felt that. And you bring up the most important point, that he grows and changes and min had been with him through it all. I just don't agree with how the flirting and lap sitting. I loved that part. I don't know why. I just did.
Hmmm, so now I know how you would flirt, lol!
I can totally understand Lezbi's points in complaining about how Min doesn't need to "wiggle around on a man's lap" to be validated but I also do kind of agree that the lap-siting can be cute/sweet/whatever. As a relatively shy guy, it would not take a lot of "wiggling" for a girl to make me stammer and blush. Even though Rand is the Dragon and so on, he is still relatively shy when it comes to dealing with women and I can totally see just the act of her sitting in his lap, and not doing anything except sitting, causing him to get very flustered. And then after the first time or two, they realize that they actually enjoy just cuddling and it just so happens that the most comfortable way to cuddle is for her to sit in his lap. There is not much overtly sexual about it, just romantic/cuddly/couple enjoying time together.
Also, I do think that there were a couple times where Min would intentionally sit in Rand's lap during audiences with random nobles not because she wanted to be close to Rand (even though that is a nice bonus), but because she knows it confuses the noble who is trying to talk to the Dragon Reborn (the title) and now has to deal with a guy who is having a moment with his lover.
I agree, it didn't bother me at all, I enjoyed it, too. Min tried to make him see that she is not like his sister but instead a woman and he better sees it and feels it because he is a woolhead that sometimes takes longer to get it :D
See I preferred the Aviendha/Rand angryness to the Faielle/Perrin angryness. Aviendah had an legit reason to be frustrated and I very much enjoyed Rand's bemused response. I liked the two together but then after they split up its like the realtionship is just...gone. Not helped by AViendah basically disappearing from the books near the end.
Elayne's I agree felt shallow. Min's romance is my favourite of the three. I take her 'seduction attempts' as intended as amusing and falls into that category of 'this would not be acceptable in real life but we like in stories'. (Though its complicated by Min knowing ahead of time Rand is into her?). I also have to assume she was being *slightly* less scandalous than it sounds....that or Rand is *spectacularly* dense. I mean we often joke about how men can't tell if a women likes them unless they literally jump us and start grinding away, but Rand goes beyond that :D
Regardless, with the actual relationship, Rand/Min is definitely the best for...well pretty much all the reasons you just said. But I'd add that Elayne seems to view him as an idealised figure, Aviendah views him as....I want to say a duty? But not in the negative way that implies. Can't really put it into words, but Min is the one who actually seems to be in a relationship with Rand the person.
For the show, portraying polyamory in a good way is certainly tricky but I think they should. Though I may be biased as I know quite a few polycules.
Romance is definitely not RJ's strongest point. Though I will ALWAYS laugh at taciturn, stoic warrior Lan busting out the underwear melting poetry and walking away :D
In my headcanon, Elayne's motivation for getting together with Rand was at least a little political. Maybe a lot political.
Andoran succession isn't always clear-cut - she even had to fight a war over it - and I imagine her thinking that the child of the Dragon Reborn (which was guaranteed from Min's viewing iirc) would have an advantage, if she had a daughter, or give her future daughter an advantage, if she had a son. It just so happens that her daughter with Rand will be from two royal lines - Trakand and Mantear. I don't think she knew that at the time, but there's plenty of time to find out post-books.
I know I am watching this a year after these comments lol. But Elayne had at least a crush on Rand when he was just a peasant who fell off a wall and into her garden. No politics involved there and I think that was where she started falling for him.
Oh for sure!! Per the books, Elayne 100% totally had a (at the very least) crush and started falling for him then.
Between then and when she decided to not drink the heartleaf(?) tea, I like to figure (again, my headcanon) that Rand's political clout played a part in her decision. She definitely still had a crush at that point, too. *At the very least* a crush, and probably more. Love is powerful.
Moriaine and Siuan should have just still have been a relationship at the start of story.
From the beginning, you could see it wasn't even planned to be long term for them. They were in a high school romance, while both even admitting to eventually grow out of it and marry princes, become greens, etc. They had to grow up fast, and became strong independent women in their own right, away from each other. They they got married to the mission to save the world; from very separate paths. I respect this choice.
Maybe Elayne and Aviendha, if they can get a breakup arc in this with rand, where he settles for min as suggested here - or other such lesbian representation as might happen, it wasn't just this case, even if this was the one that had primary characters. If we are trying to force one relationship in this. Does Moraine Domadred, who is going to sacrifice everything she is, for rand, to save the world, protect him, really want this, 20 years on in her zeal?
RJ was old and I agree with you alot.
The Perrin/Faile ship is the best and most developed, IMO. And because *it's high-fantasy* it surprisingly works very well in it's crazy way. Also, a lot of it's nuances are later incorporated into many others that follow: _Lan/Nev, Rand/Min, Siuan/Gareth, and Mat/Tuon._
The Nev/Lan one(two of my favorite characters), I could never get into; they are suddenly madly in love 2/3rds of the way through the first book! And then much later, Lan abandons his wife and current responsibilities to commit a pointless suicide. _wuuut?_
Giving love does not mean much if you are expecting payment.
The Moiraine-Thom relationship blindsided me so hard, I decided to drop the series after book 13. I had accidentally read New Spring before book 1 so, for me, Moiraine was the main character of the series. This forced relationship completely ruined my favorite character. I just couldn't bring myself to continue with the series after that.
while it's still a stretch for real life, I find lan & nyn remaining in love despite being apart infinitely more believable that literally every other wot romance in which this happens - because lan & nyn don't change much as people. this is not to say they don't grow... but their core personalities remain relatively the same between their proposal and their eventual marriage, which is untrue in most other cases
To be honest I always thought Elayne was attracted to Rand bc he was the Dragon Reborn. She flirted with every man in her vicinity for it to feel like true love. Plus he gave her children. Her future would be secure as both Queen and Mother. Even Aviendha . Again attracted to Rand for who he represented. And being encouraged by the Wise ones, who read like they were her pimps! But again, she SAW the future of her people and that Rand would give her children too. She acted to ensure that future. Min was the only woman who saw and knew Rand as Rand. I kinda hope the two meet again in his new persona and live quietly somewhere.
The only true romance is Lan and Nynaeve. All the others are just forced by RJ. Was it the attitude of male writers at the time to write women marrying a man, regardless of the circumstances? Or was he just following the criteria of his times?
About Aviendha and the Wise Ones...I think it's a cultural thing, really. The Aiel may not explicitly have arranged marriages but IIRC the Wise Ones do suggest matching Egwene (and maybe Min?) up with men that they've picked out. I always assumed that the Wise Ones were trying to force a relationship between Aviendha and Rand not because they thought she liked him but just because it would be a politically beneficial relationship for the Aiel. It's icky by modern standards, but pretty standard for much of history.
What you have to realize is that people can change their minds. If a woman was initially resistant to loving a man, despite whatever hurdles or barriers that get in the way of that, they can later decide that they do love him.
Every relationship you don't like seems to stem from it not being the woman's choice first. I can't believe that Suian, Morgase, and Aviendha would love a man because someone else told them, too. They are each of them too strong willed to let others make their own choices for them. If they ended up with a man, it is because THEY wanted it, regardless of other factors. A woman's right to choose is not lessened by influences of men.
Rand's relationships with three women at the same time is not an attempt at something fresh and new. This is part of the theme that Rand gets more of everything concerning Aiel. He has more clans following him, he has two dragons instead of one. Chiefs often have two wives, and he gets three. Ta'verens start solo, Rand grows up with two other Ta'verens. The dude does more stuff than anyone and gets more stuff than anyone. Having three wives is a part of that.
Sequential relationships are played out. Insert teen bopper flick here. It's been done before in fantasy, too. Harry Potter.
Finally, people can change and still be together. That is the mark of a strong relationship, and one that is most satisfying to read about. At least in my opinion.
I love your videos, even if you express opinions I disagree with. So, I hope you take this the same way you take your criticisms of Wheel of Time.
Love this video, just finding your channel now, via Dusty Wheel, via Daniel Greene, via Dragonmount. Would appreciate your opinions on some things. One, what do you think about the was lust is portrayed in the books as a whole? It seems like the men are shown being more in control of their feelings than the women are, and that women are more into marriage than men, who associate it with "Nagging Wives." The other this is that Min is my favorite character in the books, and I'm worried that it's because, by herself, she is a character meant to appeal to a male audience. I love the way that she is trying to be super protective of Rand, but she seems like not just a vulnerable character, but represents a vulnerable point for Rands enemies to attack, as well as Egwene when she was Damane. I don't know why but I kind of enjoyed the sadness evoked by Min and Rands doomed relationship, like when he's looking at her collecting books while preparing for what the world would be after he dies. Would appreciate your thoughts, and keep up the great work. Give you a high five if you could receive it.
Hey! Thanks so much,
And yeah, hard to receive High Five's when I have no body, lol.
And to answer one of your questions kinda briefly, I feel the whole male/female gender breakdown in the books very much falls into stereotypes at points -- don't get me wrong, I LOVE these books, but some of the ways Jordan distinguishes the genders just drives me nuts. Women nag and manipulate things behind the scenes, men are sensible and forthright. It's a bit... it's something that bothers me a bit. But I do try to remember the time and place the RJ was writing, and I do think intentions matter, at least as far as we can guess them, and I think he was trying to create 3 dimensional female characters in a genre where there weren't really any at that point, and he succeeded, and I'm grateful for it.
Dar I was looking forward to how you saw Matt and Tuon. I absolutely hated it at first, but then I started to weirdly enjoy it after a while, only to eventually not like it again... her strength is an interesting blend with his personality.
Third Age, Three Wives. Gaidal Cain and Birgette show souls can have relationships from reincarnation to reincarnation.
"I'm a lesbian but...man Lan can get it" made me LOL. I was never a huge fan of Lan and Ny's romance but I agree with why it was one of the better ones.
I SO agree with you about Perrin and Faile. I was so annoyed by how she wanted him to "yell at her" and it was like get over it.
Hated Suin and Brynn too. Suin was such an awesome strong female character and she just got ruined in that romance. Like she changed and I hated it. It totally lessoned her character.
I watched this literally JUST TO HEAR ABOUT MORAINE. I was SOO angry when they got together. Moraine was my favorite character and I was so mad about it. I didn't want her to have a romance at all. Why did she have to? I guess I missed the foreshadowing but ugh.
I had that reaction until we got that great scene with thom at the entrance to the cave. That was great
Excellent break down on Rand's 4 some. I think you nailed it perfectly.
I agree that just making Elayne and Avienda have a sexual relationship with feel cheap especially since they became first-sisters.
Great video!! Can’t get behind the Min love as she had no other purpose to the story then to support Rand and sit on his lap, but the rest I loved, everything is always an opinion though! Glad to hear what you think and the analysis really makes me think about my initial reactions to certain couples. Also what you said about lesbian relationships was soooo real, thanks for putting it out there. Love the vid!!!
I don't mind Siuan and the General. I just think it goes on for an eternity. I kinda like their grumpy foreplay. Again, though a little of that goes a long way. Also he looks what, 40 years older? Moraine also looks like Thom's daughter. Ick. Why do both women need father figures and why do these old men need young looking wives? It's sexist and as creepy as Elayne flirting with Thom. Again 3 old men. 3 young or young looking women who want them. Also Thom's former and now dead girlfriend was a young girl too. ick. Ick ick..
Romance in these story is hard. Personally I hope the relationships rand has are more poly bend to them
One of my favorite characters growing up reading these was Egwene, but I always absolutely hated how her romance with Gawyne played out... On recently rereading, I was genuinely HORRIFIED by their first experience together in the dream DDD:
I don't actually feel too strongly if they have Elayne and Aviendha fall in Love, but I totally understand the horrible truth about men being turned on by Lesbians 🤦♀️ it's why I feel Bain and Chaid definitely need to be lesbians, it's so refreshing for them to be taunting Gaul, because he's NOT interested in being with them both, it's like a total turn off for him, but he can fall in love with them because he sees how powerful and strong they are together, like it's seeing their relationship that leads to him falling in love with them! I think that's new and fresh and showing growth in a relationship!
Currently tv shows rely on blood/battles and nudity/sex to capture audiences. The more scandalous, the better. Well we should have a lot of battles and blood, but there is so little direct nudity in the books they will just have to change it. It will not be "contemporary" if there isn't. As for the relationship between Rand and the three women, I feel like RJ wrote the main character exclusively for the male audience, which (straight) male does not fantasize about having more than one woman? To hell with a relationship, bring on the women!
Im not protective. Jordan puts in too many lame tropes and male fantasy for sure. Its embarassing, really.
Bonus points for not reflexively bashing Gawyn (and Egwene's feelings for him).
Since RJ includes so many religions in the series, I always felt like the Rand, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min relationship(s) were more of a Morman twist. Same with the Aiel relationships.
I think Faile is great for Perrin and he is good for her. She's from a society where they expect their husbands to be alpha and the wife will continuously rest the husband and he has better know how to handle her.
Great thoughts again!! The picture/photo of rand is so close to josha..
Nah, don't want to see Rand's relationships to break up, we already seen that with Rand and Egwene, at the start of the series they both believed that they are destined to end up together and they have that more than a friends but not yet a couple going on, but as they see their world they realised they aren't in love with each other anymore. Having Rand break up with 2 or 3 of his ladies would just be a repeat of that. And I wouldn't mind for polyamorous relationships to be more normalised by media.
lmao about the description of how Min rubs herself against Rand. Imagine a man doing that to a woman. Most romances in the series reflect some kind of "old fashioned" , psychologically undeveloped society.
Great video as usual, however I don’t agree with most persons POV regarding romance in WoT. When I read anything with romance I take into account all the relationships I’ve observed and been in all my life and remember that people are human and we do some dumb 🤬 for “love”. (Shrug)...no romance is perfect and shouldn’t be written as so. I feel like many don’t see that the characters have a past and that past influences all they do. I.e. Morgaise is suffering from some serious Munchausen's syndrome and that should be taken into account when viewing what she does and why. 🤷🏿♂️ Since I’m 50+ and never been married perhaps I don’t know 🤬 about romance. 😂😂😂
I found the Aviendha/Rand relationship more like flirtatious over cultural barriers. I liked their struggles leading up to the igloo scene. At the point in the story i hated the "oh, we're in love now" stories. Elayne/rand, min obsession over rand, Perrin/Faile, and Lan/Nyneave before we see how great the relationship is. Aviendha and Rand felt like they had an arc into their romance which i appreciated. I saw the "hate you until I love you" more like cultural barriers keeping them away. I just didn't like how the romance fell flat after the igloo scene. Though if RJ took more risks in the Aviendha/Elayne relationship then it would've felt better. As I feel like Aviendha and Elayne love each other more than Rand. However, I like Aviendha the most of the 3 girls.
Edit: oh you discussed this. Yeah your points makes sense. However, if the writing is done well it can avoid the "male fantasy" and maybe min also gets with someone outside of the 4some. This relationship is weird, but I think Aviendha and Elayne should get together. That being said this is all coming from a gay male's perspective so maybe I'm wrong.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your closing. The relationships aren't perfect and some are extremely tenuous as best. I think some of this was inadvertent but some of it was certainly intentional to spark feelings from the readers whether they be positive or negative. It's what draws us to the series and keeps us interested and talking about it. I don't agree that it's beneath an intelligent and independent woman (Min) to enjoy sitting on a man's lap. Have you seen some of weird fetishes people have? LOL To each his/her own ;).
I wasn't a fan of Moiraine and Thom and would rather see her and Siuan together as they valued and knew each other so much like bffs with a deep love for each other. Thanks for the thought progress here. Lan & Nyn
Some are more then believable, some seem out of nowhere, you just have to be willing to see that things are happening off "screen". There is alot of different types of romantic relationships in the books, some are more physical, some more emotional, some are weird :) Funny the Avi/Rand relationship is prob my favourite of the 3, there is genuine physical attraction, with a bit of the forbidden fruit. I love that the wise ones are forcing her into it, and I love how hard she fights against it. I also love how utterly clueless both Rand and Eggy are to whats going on. The wise ones are hard women indeed :). I wouldn't say that the love square is my favourite thing in the books, but if the show were to ignore it, I would find something missing. In terms of the whole guys being into watching their gf/wife hook up with another women, some guys like watching there significant others hook up with other guys, some like feet, we are just all kinds of messed up :)
One thing that I like about Lan and Nyneave is RJ at least took the effort to say 'things happened off screen,' since while the month or so at Fal Dara and at the Stone, we're told Lan and Nyneave are pretty much constantly going on dates.
I agree, Thom and Moiraine doesn't matter sense at all. It felt contrived.
Oh and I think he did good for the era he came from, he was a young during the Civil Rights era
I’m soooo glad you talked about Min being problematic when she pushes up on Rand. But I much prefer Elayne and Aviendha as sister-wives, because I feel like it’s poetic.
Elayne is (was) Daughter-Heir and so was Rand’s mother. Aviendha is (was) a Far Daeris Mai, and so was Rand’s mother. Aiel allow for sister-wives, and Elayne and Aviendha became first-sisters.
Min seemed like the plot device here. But I do think that Rand being ta’veren was a part of it. During the flicker flicker flicker in TGH, it seems like Elayne, Aviendha, and Min were all possibilities based on different turns his life might have taken. So I actually support him and the three ladies
in the flicker flicker moment i think he ends up with Min and some farmers daughter i dont think he ends up with Avi or E
"He rescued you and he is a really nice, you should fall in love with him ..." ... That's not the way it works at all (personal experience as well). I.m.h.o. Robert did a huge mistake on that.
Also I think that Robert did incorporate some of his personal romantical fantasy wishes without necessarily and fully caring about whether this would be comprehensible in real life.
But we also have to consider in what time these ideas for the books and the whole storyline came up. Some decades later I guess we are able think a lot different about such topics.
I remember, my parents have significantly different opinions and views on certain topics of romance and relationship than I have grown with all the open discussions around these things nowadays.
All romances seem irrational to me in Wheel of Time... But still I liked them while reading. Strange that !
Just say that the romances have "room for improvement"
I know I am getting to this video really late lol like a year after it was posted, but I just wanted to say that I am right there with you with most of your opinions on the specific relationships in the book. I really hope the tv show can do better to make us believe in the relationships and from the trailer it already looks like that are doing that.
Also when it comes to Rand and his different relationships, I think a great direction for the show to go would be to have Rand and Min's relationship be the only real one he is in, the show doesn't need him to also love Elayne and or Aviendha. Him and Min really do have the most real of those three relationships, they are actually together and she is there for him no matter what. I do agree with the opinions I have seen that Min's character lost a lot of her personality throughout the series, the whole "sexy lamp shade" idea, so fleshing her out better would be great for them.
Rand's three girlfriends always seemed like a nod to his heritage, each on some level. Royal Andoran like his birth mother, Aiel for his birth father's side, and small-town-west-Andor for Tam. At this point I think it makes sense for the show to follow the books at least somewhat as far as Rand's relationships go, but if they decide to explore one of the ladies' characters in more depth I think it should be Min, too.
I agree with your characterization of the romance. I hate all of the rand relationships except for Min. Also agree with the transient nature of "pillow friends." I'm not a lesbian, but even that name seems inconsequential and kinda like he's playing it off.