One cannot help but see the brilliance in Luthen's plan. The Empire would never believe an enemy they have outnumbered and outgunned would so willingly sacrifice any resources, and so they have no reason to suspect it. Luther gives them a false sense of security while his mole is protected.
Not "brilliant," no. It's a well-acted show, but the plotting is the TV-standard choice of shock-surprise melodrama over drama through verisimilitude. It definitely does not put your enemy on the back foot to let them get away with something like this, nor does it convince them to rest on their laurels, but the script simplicity of "let them win so they double-secret-lose" is too tempting and easy a target to resist, given how well it works on the mass of the audience.
@@MegaZeta I mean its exactly what was done when the enigma was decrypted. They had to be very selective over the intelligence they acted on so the Nazi's didnt realise the broke it, and then make it harder to crack. In the Andor case, all about keeping the ISB source protected
50 men, Luthen never told Saw the true number . He lied to compartmentilize the damage to the rebellion, but also to keep Saw from getting his people and himself killed.
Saw: For the greater good? Luthen: Call it what you will... Saw: Let's call it...war. There's a suble second conversation going on as they talk. Saw doesn't want 30 men and a fellow Rebel leader to die, but in the end he knows it's necessary to further their cause. Luthen knows it's necessary, but he also knows it's wrong. If they said it out loud it would go something like this: Saw: We're doing the right thing. Luthen: The smart thing, not the right thing. It doesn't make us the good guys. Saw: Maybe. But maybe it makes us the guys who win.
I think you nailed the subtext here! I love that this show is so good that people are still analyzing it to this detail this long after the initial release. I know we have season 2 coming up, but I'd say it's still too far our for this to be running on hype
Even more interesting because he mentions with distaste earlier in the season that Kreegyr's a Separatist--a longtime enemy for Saw since his days as a young man on Onderon. But once he knows Kreegyr is going off to die, he defends the man, despite their long animosity. It is a flipside to his comment on war, where he does in the end accept that one must make strange bedfellows for the sake "of the greater good". Also as an aside, it would be pretty epic to see something from the Separatist holdout side of things, there is a pretty tragic story there
@@gabrielperez-ze9tk I think it's because Saw really hates the idea of betraying an ally, even if this ally is someone he hates. It's a question of principles, the kind of thing you would not wish on your enemies.
@@eddieram435I will say: I feel like in some sense Andor kind of retroactively makes the set up of the sequels a bit better. Scenes like this, we see that there's a real mean-ness and ends justify the means mentality here that dictate Luthen's (ultimately successful) construction of organized rebellion. By the time of RoTJ, the rebellion is eager but inexperienced, in response to the empire's tightening grip post Aldahni and Death star: they've gone from banal everyday evil you look away from to existential threat, which has led to a new fresh faced wave of fighters. Without the generation of people like Luthen, who knows the enemy and knows what a longer lasting peace would have taken, it's going to be hard to convince the everyday people that that state (first order or OT Empire) will inevitably be the endpoint of leaving them be. I feel like in Andor you get the sense that, as intelligent and as moral, well meaning, as Mon Mothma is, she's never really had to play her hand or make sacrifices at other peoples expenses. She's almost too clean for her own good, and one could see how, probably with political pressures, she wouldn't necessarily have the gumption, or the experience, to make the masses understand 'the fights not over the empire must be utterly annihilated'
French and Greek resistance leadership had to make several painful calculations similar to this during WWII. “Let’s call it War” ties the bow on this exchange. “Call it war” is exactly what’s going on.
Every resistance everywhere ever have had to make decisions like this. Only the F and G resistances would heavily regret doing what they did in vvwlI as they look upon their nations in modern times.
Every resistance everywhere ever have had to make decisions like this. Only the F and G resistances would heavily regret- (had to delete this part due to censorship).
Luthen: Call it what you will This line just hits so hard, especially after hearing his monologue again. Luthen is sacrificing 30 men who are dedicated to the same cause as they are, but there is no joy in it, or in pulling one over the ISB. He sacrifices these lives because he knows it is necessary for them to win in the long term, rather than getting an easy victory for a bigger loss later. But it still wounds his soul even further, because he knows he must be like the Enpire for their victory to have a chance. This show is a masterpiece in showing the reality of revolution, of the sacrifices that they don’t mention in your history textbooks or what schemes will never see the light of day. Andor, more than any film or show since The Empire Strikes Back was released deserves a spot amongst the hall of fame of Star Wars media.
They do. But Disney is mad this show did better than all their girl sleepover slumber party shows. So they are purposely refusing to acknowledge the popularity and will not make any more of it.
You edited this out, but there's a cadence of four consecutive responses that's a masterclass: [1] Your avoiding the choice [2] Try to concentrate [3] You're wasting time [4] Your avoiding the question
He's really such a tragic character, almost to a comical degree. Poor guy is fighting for the greater good, but everything bad that can happen to him does happen. Forrest Whittaker is really incredible
What's funny is that Luthien wanted to goad the Imperial authorities into a repressive crackdown that otherwise wouldn't have been necessary, in order to trigger a general rebellion that would bear a heavy cost in innocent lives. What a hero.
The crackdown would happen *eventually* anyway. Because there was a lot to rebel against already. All Luthen did was speed things up and dictate the timing. Because doing so then, when the rebel cells he was coordinating with would be ready to organize and lead that rebellious energy, just meant that the response to the crackdown could be more than fear.
@@temmy9 the same tactic was used in the Hunger Games - President Snow, who was already despised by people living in the Districts, was manipulated into clamping down hard on dissent instead of throwing the restless masses an olive branch and cooling things down. The advisor responsible was secretly an agent of Snow's main enemy.
"The Empire has been choking us so slowly, we're starting not to notice. The time has come to force their hand." if he didn't goad them he fears they'd be too entrenched to effectively rebel against. The Empire is slowly putting security measures in place that protect it against a wide-spread rebellion, and the wide collection of unconnected rebel groups is proof of that. Luthen wants the rebellion to happen while it still can happen.
I’ve been looking for these videos of yours for some time now, you had these scenes on YT before but they went missing, I’m glad to see they’re up again.
@@LuiTheBazui this is the real face of the Rebel Alliance: senior personnel making cold blooded sacrifices of people further down the food chain. Not very romantic.
@@mitchellgiles6869 Anto Kreegyr was a doofus oaf and a Seperatist whom the only thing shared in common with Rael was a mutual hated for the Empire. He died as he lived ... as a useful idiot.
Dumbledore bashers could learn a few things from this. And lots and lots of others, cause OMG their comments leave clear that they don’t know about the complexities of war situations or how fiction works
Idea for season 2: what if Kriga survives and comes back for revenge, maybe even works for the ISB and becomes a big threat for Luthen? But honestly, no 😅 If that was going to be a thing they’d have Kriga more in the first season so the betrayal hurts a lot more.
I love that Luthen is clearly torn up about all 30 men, "plus kreeger"
He also knows it's 50 men, not 30.
@@Ptera_xd Yes, Luthern knows it's really 50 men, but he doesn't volunteer any information or correct anyone's misconceptions unless it's necessary.
Plus he knows Kreeger is someone who can amass followers and stay organized. So he’s losing numbers AND a leader.
@@Ptera_xd Kreeger obvious counts as 20 men. ;)
Two acting super heavyweights in the ring. Pure magic.
Two? Who's the other one
@@derrickstorm6976 in the title
One cannot help but see the brilliance in Luthen's plan. The Empire would never believe an enemy they have outnumbered and outgunned would so willingly sacrifice any resources, and so they have no reason to suspect it. Luther gives them a false sense of security while his mole is protected.
Not "brilliant," no. It's a well-acted show, but the plotting is the TV-standard choice of shock-surprise melodrama over drama through verisimilitude. It definitely does not put your enemy on the back foot to let them get away with something like this, nor does it convince them to rest on their laurels, but the script simplicity of "let them win so they double-secret-lose" is too tempting and easy a target to resist, given how well it works on the mass of the audience.
@@MegaZeta I mean its exactly what was done when the enigma was decrypted. They had to be very selective over the intelligence they acted on so the Nazi's didnt realise the broke it, and then make it harder to crack. In the Andor case, all about keeping the ISB source protected
Tubes, minding his own business: "Yo man WTF?!"
Rip the 30 men....plus Kreeger lol
50 men, Luthen never told Saw the true number . He lied to compartmentilize the damage to the rebellion, but also to keep Saw from getting his people and himself killed.
Saw: For the greater good?
Luthen: Call it what you will...
Saw: Let's call it...war.
There's a suble second conversation going on as they talk. Saw doesn't want 30 men and a fellow Rebel leader to die, but in the end he knows it's necessary to further their cause. Luthen knows it's necessary, but he also knows it's wrong. If they said it out loud it would go something like this:
Saw: We're doing the right thing.
Luthen: The smart thing, not the right thing. It doesn't make us the good guys.
Saw: Maybe. But maybe it makes us the guys who win.
I think you nailed the subtext here! I love that this show is so good that people are still analyzing it to this detail this long after the initial release. I know we have season 2 coming up, but I'd say it's still too far our for this to be running on hype
Even more interesting because he mentions with distaste earlier in the season that Kreegyr's a Separatist--a longtime enemy for Saw since his days as a young man on Onderon. But once he knows Kreegyr is going off to die, he defends the man, despite their long animosity. It is a flipside to his comment on war, where he does in the end accept that one must make strange bedfellows for the sake "of the greater good". Also as an aside, it would be pretty epic to see something from the Separatist holdout side of things, there is a pretty tragic story there
@@gabrielperez-ze9tk I think it's because Saw really hates the idea of betraying an ally, even if this ally is someone he hates. It's a question of principles, the kind of thing you would not wish on your enemies.
😂Yet 30 years later the Galaxy is sucked into another war.
@@eddieram435I will say: I feel like in some sense Andor kind of retroactively makes the set up of the sequels a bit better. Scenes like this, we see that there's a real mean-ness and ends justify the means mentality here that dictate Luthen's (ultimately successful) construction of organized rebellion. By the time of RoTJ, the rebellion is eager but inexperienced, in response to the empire's tightening grip post Aldahni and Death star: they've gone from banal everyday evil you look away from to existential threat, which has led to a new fresh faced wave of fighters. Without the generation of people like Luthen, who knows the enemy and knows what a longer lasting peace would have taken, it's going to be hard to convince the everyday people that that state (first order or OT Empire) will inevitably be the endpoint of leaving them be. I feel like in Andor you get the sense that, as intelligent and as moral, well meaning, as Mon Mothma is, she's never really had to play her hand or make sacrifices at other peoples expenses. She's almost too clean for her own good, and one could see how, probably with political pressures, she wouldn't necessarily have the gumption, or the experience, to make the masses understand 'the fights not over the empire must be utterly annihilated'
French and Greek resistance leadership had to make several painful calculations similar to this during WWII.
“Let’s call it War” ties the bow on this exchange.
“Call it war” is exactly what’s going on.
Yes, this reminds me of the whole Enigma machine dilemma.
Every resistance everywhere ever have had to make decisions like this. Only the F and G resistances would heavily regret doing what they did in vvwlI as they look upon their nations in modern times.
Every resistance everywhere ever have had to make decisions like this. Only the F and G resistances would heavily regret- (had to delete this part due to censorship).
Every R everywhere ever have had to make decisions like these. Only the G and F res regret their decisions though!
Luthen: Call it what you will
This line just hits so hard, especially after hearing his monologue again. Luthen is sacrificing 30 men who are dedicated to the same cause as they are, but there is no joy in it, or in pulling one over the ISB. He sacrifices these lives because he knows it is necessary for them to win in the long term, rather than getting an easy victory for a bigger loss later. But it still wounds his soul even further, because he knows he must be like the Enpire for their victory to have a chance.
This show is a masterpiece in showing the reality of revolution, of the sacrifices that they don’t mention in your history textbooks or what schemes will never see the light of day. Andor, more than any film or show since The Empire Strikes Back was released deserves a spot amongst the hall of fame of Star Wars media.
Plus Krieger
2:11 lol I love that smile like he's impressed he had the courage to pull a blaster on him like that. 😂
Awesome clip. The full version of this scene is even better: there are a lot of extra details that add to the "high-stakes" feel of this scene.
How do people not love this show
They do. But Disney is mad this show did better than all their girl sleepover slumber party shows. So they are purposely refusing to acknowledge the popularity and will not make any more of it.
@@johnroscoe2406 I thought Andor season 2 was already confirmed
@@bibimir Lol it is, it comes out in april 2025. This john guy is delusional.
@@johnroscoe2406 Andor would not approve of this casual misogyny
@@JFM90 Not elusional. We're talking about Disney. My criticism of them was valid regardless if they decide to suddenly care about Andor again or not.
That ‘War’ has it all
You edited this out, but there's a cadence of four consecutive responses that's a masterclass: [1] Your avoiding the choice [2] Try to concentrate [3] You're wasting time [4] Your avoiding the question
"I don't know WHAT you'll do," I love how fed up he sounds with Saw's.."eccentricities".
That "let's call it war" was chilling
With scenes like this, you can really empathize with why Saw was the way he was in Rogue One. He'd been lied to and betrayed by so many people.
He's really such a tragic character, almost to a comical degree. Poor guy is fighting for the greater good, but everything bad that can happen to him does happen. Forrest Whittaker is really incredible
What's funny is that Luthien wanted to goad the Imperial authorities into a repressive crackdown that otherwise wouldn't have been necessary, in order to trigger a general rebellion that would bear a heavy cost in innocent lives. What a hero.
The crackdown would happen *eventually* anyway. Because there was a lot to rebel against already. All Luthen did was speed things up and dictate the timing. Because doing so then, when the rebel cells he was coordinating with would be ready to organize and lead that rebellious energy, just meant that the response to the crackdown could be more than fear.
This is actual real world insurgency 101
@@temmy9 the same tactic was used in the Hunger Games - President Snow, who was already despised by people living in the Districts, was manipulated into clamping down hard on dissent instead of throwing the restless masses an olive branch and cooling things down. The advisor responsible was secretly an agent of Snow's main enemy.
@@Hidden_Sage a general rebellion is always messy, a focused rebellion leads to rapid installation of a new government that can restore order quickly.
"The Empire has been choking us so slowly, we're starting not to notice. The time has come to force their hand." if he didn't goad them he fears they'd be too entrenched to effectively rebel against. The Empire is slowly putting security measures in place that protect it against a wide-spread rebellion, and the wide collection of unconnected rebel groups is proof of that. Luthen wants the rebellion to happen while it still can happen.
The only andor scene that legitimately gives me chills with every. Single. Watch. It’s unbelievable that we got such a masterpiece in Star Wars.
I don't know, I get a special chill watching Brasso take out a stormtrooper with Marva's brick
@ I f*cking love that scene😂
Great scene
Did your channel got axed or what?
When the pragmatist and the extremists reach an agreement.
okay? but what about the attack on the wookies? and the bothans that die to bring us this information?
Bothans were responsible for the information regarding the second death star.
TIE fighter pilot here, we let a few of those bothans through on purpose. Joke was on us in the end though, I guess.
It is critical that we send many bothans die to give us this information immediately.
I’ve been looking for these videos of yours for some time now, you had these scenes on YT before but they went missing, I’m glad to see they’re up again.
Why is Andor like 1000000% better than anything else in SW? The Acolyte looks like elementary school garbage compared to this
because KK stayed away plus it wasn't female centric but male centric
Damn release this on physical media already!
It's like the sacrifice of 4000 Brit soldiers in Calais.
Man this is the star wars i love
Damn good show!
He can actually reason with sol😂
Impressive
"Lets call it WAR"
I gotta watch Andor again.... Totally don't remember any of this happening
And we are all upset because Kreeger could've been a great name for a greater character.
Wait so he betrayed Saw? If so, why?
He betrayed Anto Kreegyr
He betrayed Anto Kreegyr(Separatist) because he believes some Rebels have to be sacrificed for a greater Rebellion
He betrayed Anto Kreegyr so the ISB won’t be suspicious that Luthen might have an inside man in their operation
@@LuiTheBazui this is the real face of the Rebel Alliance: senior personnel making cold blooded sacrifices of people further down the food chain. Not very romantic.
@@mitchellgiles6869 Anto Kreegyr was a doofus oaf and a Seperatist whom the only thing shared in common with Rael was a mutual hated for the Empire. He died as he lived ... as a useful idiot.
TELL HIM ILL BRING AIIIR POWAH!
Well, don't worry too much
, Kreeger is only a CGI lad anyway.
Luthen looks like RFK Jr
Dumbledore bashers could learn a few things from this.
And lots and lots of others, cause OMG their comments leave clear that they don’t know about the complexities of war situations or how fiction works
In many ways Luthen is worse than saw he is more willing to led allies to their deaths for the larger picture
heavily edited
Idea for season 2: what if Kriga survives and comes back for revenge, maybe even works for the ISB and becomes a big threat for Luthen?
But honestly, no 😅
If that was going to be a thing they’d have Kriga more in the first season so the betrayal hurts a lot more.
Your crappy editing ruined the beautiful pacing of this moment. Shame on you.
Disney: Lets have a bunch of ladies chant in a circle!
You realize this is also Disney right?
@@violabeaumont3758 You realize your to uneducated to understand my comment and what the point of it is?
@@violabeaumont3758 Kk is what is wrong with Disney, KK had very little to do with Andor
@@toomanyaccounts KK has little to do with any show in particular. She just guides which projects get green lit and which ones don't.
@@violabeaumont3758 false. bother to learn why she is the one responsible for things being garbage. she is a producer.
that is a concealed light saber... Luthen is a Jedi... season 2 gonna be the big reveal and is going down against Darth Vader
That would be unbelievably terrible
@@CB_1000 😂 maybe he's joking because it's made by Disney and there's a 50/50 chance that they actually do something so terrible.
@@CB_1000 why do you think? As long as all the jedi are dead by A New Hope, it don't matter do it?
There will be no Season 2. Disney is mad "the wrong people" like this show.
@@johnroscoe2406 they literally announced season 2 like two days ago
i love Tubes with all my heart he's so cool