@ssvr so yes, God is fulfilling and has fulfilled the New Covenant in Christ...which is why those with the Spirit who have true saving faith cannot fall away and the author of Hebrews is consistent with the rest of Scripture in believing that those with true saving faith will necessarily persevere and these warning will move them to "better things that accompany salvation". The warning is real and genuine. It may function to spur on those enduring hardship (to hang in there) or it may harden...
Having some basics of Hebrew is good - working knowledge of Greek is essential - and, thankfully, the NT Greek (Koine) is so simple that is really easy to access.
Prof Groves, I guess the issue is in defining 'trustworthy'. Let me illustrate: I was speaking to a pastor of 50+ years, seminary trained at SouthWestern Baptist, and quite confident in his understanding of the text. The passage we were discussing was Heb 6:4-6, the controversial bit about apostasy. When this pastor offered me his explanation, prefaced by the usual, "Oh this is a very hard one", he quoted from the old NIV/NKJV, which states "if they fall away". Cont'd below
@prchdaword V 9 does not nullify v 4-6, rather it upholds the latter. Moreover, the grammatical construction of v6 + the description of these believers as having shared in the Holy Spirit makes it very clear that these are genuine believers who perished, as many who had been delivered in the Exodus died in the desert. The larger context of Hebrews bears this out, especially chap 3. Thosewho died in the desert were just as delivered from Pharaoh as those who made it to Canaan.
@ssvr is put into effect (cf. Rev. 5 and the scroll and the Lamb, with God's plan for the ages not able to be fulfilled until the seal was broken by the lamb who is worthy!). And not only the Spirit our seal, but our "guarantee" our "pledge" from God himself (who cannot lie). yes, the Spirit can be quenched but not taken away completely...otherwise God would have to undo and even deny the work of the cross and the resurrection that gained also procured the Spirit for us;the promise of the Father
@prchdaword The difference between the old and new covenant is this: the new covenant is a fulfillment of Jer 31, where God promised toPOUR out His Spirit. His desire, through Christ, was to bless believers with this new dispensation and this is confirmed in John 3. The Spirit is given as a seal, yes, but note: the image used here is legal one, a roman one, where a seal would be placed on a document. A seal could be broken then, and the parallel is that we can quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5)
@ssvr ...it also serves as a true warning of what happens to apostates, to those who profess the Christian faith for a while but then fall away from it. So yes, the grammar of v4-6 stands, without question but in context the author of Hebrews doesn't seem to believe that true believers will apostasize but feels sure of better things., In other words, I think the warning is true, but is serves several functions....does that make sense?
@ssvr but the text doesn't say, "the Holy spirit dwelled" in them....but that they "shared in". Now, if you take that in a sense of their "sealing" like in eph. 1:13-14, then yes we are probably ALLscrewed. However, if it is possible for one to experience the things of the spirit of God and yet not have genuine conversion...don't we see allusions to this in the parable of the soils? And in Matthew 7:21-23 who did miracles and yet were not known salvifically to Christ?
@ssvr ...those drifting away into their apostasy. Like a saying, the same sun that melts the ice also hardens the clay. So my point is the warning is real but it serves various functions depending on who is hearing it be it a truly born again believer or a false convert who converted for all the wrong reasons (again, the parable of the soils is appropriate here).
@prchdaword The Spirit in the old covenant came and went. David for example, prayed that the Spirit not be taken from him. It is only when Christ, the Logos, sent the Holy Spirit that we would have the promise of being metochous (partakers) of Him. Again look at the use of metochous in context in the epistle to the Hebrews. There are definitely tares among the wheat, but it is a non sequitur to argue that the existence of tares precludes the apostasy of true believers.
@ssvr and God has poured out His spirit on His elect, not on all mankind indiscriminately. Likewise, those to whom God does include in the new covenant necessarily inherit its blessings. Note the "I will" which is God's certainty of what will come to pass. If this is true, then those members of the New Covenant CANNOT NOT have their sins forgiven, etc....they must necessarily gain its blessings because of what God does. Remember too when the seal was broken, what was written in the scroll....
@ssvr sure, they were just as delivered but, if i remember correctly, Numbers 14 shows that they were not believing in the words of the Lord. I'm not saying it nullifies the warning at all, but the author seems to believe that perseverance will follow true saving faith. Even after being delivered from Egypt, the people were never fully trusting God always complaining, etc...my understanding of the text, theologically, is that it serves as a means to spur the elect on to perseverance AND
@ssvr don't we even see people like Saul who partook of the things of the Spirit without having actually experience the salvific sealing and regeneration of the Spirit? That is to say, isn't it at all possible that there are false converts in the Church who in and through the Church experience the things of the Spirit but are not converted in their souls? They are still playing religion in some ways?
@prchdaword "Shared", or "partakers", is from the greek metochous. The context of Hebrews is unequivocal, EVERY time metochous is used outside of Heb 6:4, it is used of true believers (see Heb 1:9, 3:1, 3:14, 12:8). No reason to read 6:4 differently. The parable of the sower clearly teaches that falling away of a true believer is possible. Note re the 1st group, Jesus says that had they believed they would have been saved. But in the 2nd group, they believed, for a while, b4 falling away.
@ssvr maybe he's making the right understanding from the wrong part of the passage? As I have understood,it most Reformed interpreters see it as a real warning given by God that is used as exhortation to cause the true believer to persevere. 6:9 shows that the author is convinced that such things in 6:4-6 are not becoming of true believers. But Hebrews as a whole supposes one of the seeds that jesus spoke of that fell on the ground, but can be choked by trouble.
That they eventually did not continue to believe in God, as they believed in Him when He saved them out of Pharaoh's hand, does not negate the fact that God had indeed delivered them. It makes no sense to argue that they were 'never truly saved', because they eventually fell away. This is a non sequitur disproved by Heb 6:4-6. Never saved people do not share in the Holy Spirit.
@prchdaword This is very unconvincing. If you truly believe that the grammer of v 4-6 stands, namely, the 'and have fallen away', do you recognize that this a warning referring to actual genuine believers who have already perished? Do believers who were 'never saved' fit the description here, having shared in the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit does not dwell in the 'never saved'.
Yet, we know that unequivocally, there is no 'if' in the koine greek, and the proper translation is 'and have fallen away' as translated by the NAS for example. There is a world of difference. This pastor's whole interpretation of the passage hinged on that 1 word, if. He believes that the passage is therefore a hypothetical warning to believers. But the grammar and tense of 'and have fallen away' makes such an interpretation impossible... So again, how would you define 'trustworthy'?
Matheteusate ta ethne - " make disciples of all nations " - quite literally multiply into all ethnicities ( Matthew 28:19 ) Ginosko- Know ..... John 17:3 - " This is eternal life, that they may ( know ) You the only True God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. " Ginosko- A knowledge gained in relation too God and Christ Jesus confirmed in correct Holy Spirit teaching of scripture, producing an emphatic belief. Homologeõ- " Same Word" - Confess. That if you ( confess ) with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans . Romans 10:9 - This is a covenant with God agreeing fully as to His ( Same Word ) of Christ Jesus and committing one's life and living to that truth.
Thank you Elizabeth for your passion for Hebrew. And thank GOD for the Amplified Bible!
She really loves her profession, right , I would have loved studying under her.
@ssvr so yes, God is fulfilling and has fulfilled the New Covenant in Christ...which is why those with the Spirit who have true saving faith cannot fall away and the author of Hebrews is consistent with the rest of Scripture in believing that those with true saving faith will necessarily persevere and these warning will move them to "better things that accompany salvation". The warning is real and genuine. It may function to spur on those enduring hardship (to hang in there) or it may harden...
Having some basics of Hebrew is good - working knowledge of Greek is essential - and, thankfully, the NT Greek (Koine) is so simple that is really easy to access.
Prof Groves, I guess the issue is in defining 'trustworthy'. Let me illustrate: I was speaking to a pastor of 50+ years, seminary trained at SouthWestern Baptist, and quite confident in his understanding of the text. The passage we were discussing was Heb 6:4-6, the controversial bit about apostasy. When this pastor offered me his explanation, prefaced by the usual, "Oh this is a very hard one", he quoted from the old NIV/NKJV, which states "if they fall away". Cont'd below
@prchdaword
V 9 does not nullify v 4-6, rather it upholds the latter. Moreover, the grammatical construction of v6 + the description of these believers as having shared in the Holy Spirit makes it very clear that these are genuine believers who perished, as many who had been delivered in the Exodus died in the desert. The larger context of Hebrews bears this out, especially chap 3. Thosewho died in the desert were just as delivered from Pharaoh as those who made it to Canaan.
@ssvr is put into effect (cf. Rev. 5 and the scroll and the Lamb, with God's plan for the ages not able to be fulfilled until the seal was broken by the lamb who is worthy!). And not only the Spirit our seal, but our "guarantee" our "pledge" from God himself (who cannot lie). yes, the Spirit can be quenched but not taken away completely...otherwise God would have to undo and even deny the work of the cross and the resurrection that gained also procured the Spirit for us;the promise of the Father
@prchdaword
The difference between the old and new covenant is this: the new covenant is a fulfillment of Jer 31, where God promised toPOUR out His Spirit. His desire, through Christ, was to bless believers with this new dispensation and this is confirmed in John 3. The Spirit is given as a seal, yes, but note: the image used here is legal one, a roman one, where a seal would be placed on a document. A seal could be broken then, and the parallel is that we can quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5)
@ssvr ...it also serves as a true warning of what happens to apostates, to those who profess the Christian faith for a while but then fall away from it. So yes, the grammar of v4-6 stands, without question but in context the author of Hebrews doesn't seem to believe that true believers will apostasize but feels sure of better things., In other words, I think the warning is true, but is serves several functions....does that make sense?
@ssvr but the text doesn't say, "the Holy spirit dwelled" in them....but that they "shared in". Now, if you take that in a sense of their "sealing" like in eph. 1:13-14, then yes we are probably ALLscrewed. However, if it is possible for one to experience the things of the spirit of God and yet not have genuine conversion...don't we see allusions to this in the parable of the soils? And in Matthew 7:21-23 who did miracles and yet were not known salvifically to Christ?
@ssvr ...those drifting away into their apostasy. Like a saying, the same sun that melts the ice also hardens the clay. So my point is the warning is real but it serves various functions depending on who is hearing it be it a truly born again believer or a false convert who converted for all the wrong reasons (again, the parable of the soils is appropriate here).
@prchdaword
The Spirit in the old covenant came and went. David for example, prayed that the Spirit not be taken from him. It is only when Christ, the Logos, sent the Holy Spirit that we would have the promise of being metochous (partakers) of Him. Again look at the use of metochous in context in the epistle to the Hebrews. There are definitely tares among the wheat, but it is a non sequitur to argue that the existence of tares precludes the apostasy of true believers.
@ssvr and God has poured out His spirit on His elect, not on all mankind indiscriminately. Likewise, those to whom God does include in the new covenant necessarily inherit its blessings. Note the "I will" which is God's certainty of what will come to pass. If this is true, then those members of the New Covenant CANNOT NOT have their sins forgiven, etc....they must necessarily gain its blessings because of what God does. Remember too when the seal was broken, what was written in the scroll....
@ssvr sure, they were just as delivered but, if i remember correctly, Numbers 14 shows that they were not believing in the words of the Lord. I'm not saying it nullifies the warning at all, but the author seems to believe that perseverance will follow true saving faith. Even after being delivered from Egypt, the people were never fully trusting God always complaining, etc...my understanding of the text, theologically, is that it serves as a means to spur the elect on to perseverance AND
meant 'grammar' below not 'grammer'.
@ssvr don't we even see people like Saul who partook of the things of the Spirit without having actually experience the salvific sealing and regeneration of the Spirit? That is to say, isn't it at all possible that there are false converts in the Church who in and through the Church experience the things of the Spirit but are not converted in their souls? They are still playing religion in some ways?
@prchdaword
"Shared", or "partakers", is from the greek metochous. The context of Hebrews is unequivocal, EVERY time metochous is used outside of Heb 6:4, it is used of true believers (see Heb 1:9, 3:1, 3:14, 12:8). No reason to read 6:4 differently. The parable of the sower clearly teaches that falling away of a true believer is possible. Note re the 1st group, Jesus says that had they believed they would have been saved. But in the 2nd group, they believed, for a while, b4 falling away.
@ssvr maybe he's making the right understanding from the wrong part of the passage? As I have understood,it most Reformed interpreters see it as a real warning given by God that is used as exhortation to cause the true believer to persevere. 6:9 shows that the author is convinced that such things in 6:4-6 are not becoming of true believers. But Hebrews as a whole supposes one of the seeds that jesus spoke of that fell on the ground, but can be choked by trouble.
That they eventually did not continue to believe in God, as they believed in Him when He saved them out of Pharaoh's hand, does not negate the fact that God had indeed delivered them. It makes no sense to argue that they were 'never truly saved', because they eventually fell away. This is a non sequitur disproved by Heb 6:4-6. Never saved people do not share in the Holy Spirit.
@prchdaword
This is very unconvincing. If you truly believe that the grammer of v 4-6 stands, namely, the 'and have fallen away', do you recognize that this a warning referring to actual genuine believers who have already perished? Do believers who were 'never saved' fit the description here, having shared in the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit does not dwell in the 'never saved'.
Yet, we know that unequivocally, there is no 'if' in the koine greek, and the proper translation is 'and have fallen away' as translated by the NAS for example. There is a world of difference. This pastor's whole interpretation of the passage hinged on that 1 word, if. He believes that the passage is therefore a hypothetical warning to believers. But the grammar and tense of 'and have fallen away' makes such an interpretation impossible... So again, how would you define 'trustworthy'?
Matheteusate ta ethne - " make disciples of all nations " - quite literally multiply into all ethnicities ( Matthew 28:19 ) Ginosko- Know ..... John 17:3 - " This is eternal life, that they may ( know ) You the only True God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. " Ginosko- A knowledge gained in relation too God and Christ Jesus confirmed in correct Holy Spirit teaching of scripture, producing an emphatic belief. Homologeõ- " Same Word" - Confess. That if you ( confess ) with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans . Romans 10:9 - This is a covenant with God agreeing fully as to His ( Same Word ) of Christ Jesus and committing one's life and living to that truth.