Norfolk and Western's Path of Success | Steam, Mountains, and Coal | History in the Dark
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- The Norfolk and Western was one of the most successful railways in American history. Born in Virginia as the City Point Railroad, they paved a path to dominance that was realized in the 1900's. When others struggled, N&W continued to succeed with good management and a surplus of lucrative coal contracts.
0:00 - Intro
1:00 - The Backstory
7:15 - Staying Alive
13:03 - The Merge
15:21 - Survival
"The Norfolk and Western Railway (reporting mark NW), commonly called the N&W, was a US class I railroad, formed by more than 200 railroad mergers between 1838 and 1982. It was headquartered in Roanoke, Virginia, for most of its existence. Its motto was "Precision Transportation"; it had a variety of nicknames, including "King Coal" and "British Railway of America". In 1986, N&W merged with Southern Railway to form today’s Norfolk Southern Railway."
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#history #truestory #documentary
Alco, Lima, and Baldwin: "We build the best steam locomotives in the world."
Roanoke and Altoona: "Hold my beer."
montreal eating popcorn in the background
Alco did make the worlds largest steam locomotive big boy back that up
@@darrelgoodman5548 longest locomotive was a n&w steam turbine
the y6 had a larger boiler
the s1 had more horsepower and was 8ft longer
prr q2 had more tractive effort.
only reason why big boy is considered the largest is because it was successful.
@@darrelgoodman5548 Lol, no it wasn't. That's a common misconception.
Doncaster silent in the corner
I'm a conductor on the former N&W Pocahontas Division, we are still loading plenty of coal today.
😱Wow! How did u end up getting that job?
Also I hate to rain on their parade but what is that remaining of N&W gonna do when all that coal is gone and no more to mine?
@@adamtain7627 There's concivibly hundreds of thousands of years of coal in those hills, that's a problem neither you nor I will have to worry about in our lifetimes.
Ian Whaley
😒I was talking about because we’re all gradually transitioning to renewable energy and resources like for example Disneyland’s railroad trains and even their riverboat using biodiesel, those hills of coal u mention are gonna eventually close and left abandoned to rot
@@adamtain7627 All of the coal being gone ≠ no customers purchasing it. Those are two very different problems. As for no one buying coal, most of the Southern Appalachian subbituminous coal is used in Metallurgical purposes, for which there is no better choice other than high quality coal.
I live in florida every year I am worried that a tropical storm of the coast will turn into cat 5 in 36 hours.i don't remember that as a kid.i will let people decide what has caused that.i think we would be wise to go to cleaner fuels.
N and W had some of the most iconic locomotives in their roster.
BEST STEAM LOCOMOTIVES EVER!!!!
J class is the sexiest steam locomotive ever made and I will fight someone over it.
The Y's are incredible. I can dream that the N&W pays to bring the one in Virginia back one day.
I’m more into Rio Grande narrow gauge and ATSF stuff, but the Y6’s are pretty neat.
@@buck45osu Y6a 2156 is back in St. Louis and Y3 2050 is at IRM in Union Ill. Yeah, if I had the money I'd get them both running and A class 1218 too!
@@katies6426 My favorite is Class A 1218 but I'll take a Y. I've ridden all the narrow gauge left in Colorado and love them all.
Great use of video footage for this video. I'd also like to point out that some of the video footage used to symbolize the J class is actually footage of the K class: a rather underrated 4-8-2 engine on the N&W with the same streamlining as the Js with no surviving examples, so it's nice to see a little cameo from the Ks as well, since footage of them is rather scarce.
Now that you discussed N&W, the next railroad to discuss would naturally be Southern Railway.
A few years ago, someone who worked just under the vice presidential level, told me that the late Robert Claytor insisted that N&W's mechanical department would rule the roost after the merger. One rail historian asserted that the reason the N&W dieselized so fast (including leasing diesels from three other railroads) was because of the pending merger with the Virginian. Saunders was trying to pump up the N&W's stock price relative to that of the dieselized Virginian. The merger was to be based on a stock swap. David P. Morgan wrote (Roanoke: Alamo of Steam- Trains, June, 1956) that if diesels did for N&W what the pundits claimed it would do, N&W would have the lowest operating ratio if any railroad. Morgan noted that the Virginian, which had the lowest operating ratio in 1955, didn't have the N&W's " grades, branch lines, or passenger service".
You totally neglected to mention the NKP and Wabash who were merged into NS as well. Both contributed large parts of the system across Ohio and Indiana.
I love the N&W so much I have an entire 9 volume DVD collection of it known as Pocahontas Glory and Pillars of Smoke in the Sky from Herron Rail Video
a total of 7 and a half hours of N&W classic footage
N&W's electrification footage can be seen in Pocahontas Glory volume 6 as their electrification was powered by a powerhouse in Bluestone, WV and this electrification was done from 1914 - 1950 as the Elkhorn Tunnel was a nightmare not just because of its 2% eastbound grade but also because it was single tracked too so the electrification was from Bluefield to Iaegar around 53.5 miles in total. Only boxcabs handled the line and were classified as LC-1 and LC-2's. The LC-1's were acquried in 1915 and the LC-2's were acquired in 1924. They would haul eastbound fully loaded hoppers and then westbound empty hoppers. Even then, steam power was still employed on that line too. When the new Elkhorn grade opened in 1952, electric service ended which you can see it under construction in the N&W company produced film Operation Fast Freight which is set in the year 1950 where u can see the last years of the N&W electrification scheme mainly in Bluefield.
This was in contrast to the Virginian's electrification which streteched 133.6 miles from Mullens to Roanoke and lasted until N&W scrapped its operation in 1962. They had EL-3A boxcabs, EL-2B's, and EL-C's. The late H Reed noted that in his book The Virginian Railway, it describes when there was a contest staged in the early days of Virginian electric operation when the Virginian ran a 6,000 ton coal train over Clark's Gap with a 2-8-8-2 on the point and helped by a pair of 2-10-10-2's on the rear. Within a 15 minute start, the steam train was passed by an identical consist hauled by 3 EL-3A's and 1 pusher. The steam train did 7 mph over the 2% grade while the electrics did 14 mph and then the electrics were halted on the grade, restarted, and reached their speed again in 3 minutes.
Pre-Saunders N & W wanted to support their customers (read: coal mines) which was why they kept using steam as long as they could. And there was a familial connection at the time of the merger - W. Graham Claytor, Jr, had just stepped down as SR President while his younger brother Robert Claytor was President of the N & W! Following the merger Robert became NS President while Graham had a couple of posts in Jimmy Carter's administration, then was hired as President of Amtrak (Amtrak was falling apart and Graham Claytor turned them around in his 11 years at the helm, even restoring Autotrain, something I hope to ride one of these years).
On a side note, I consider the N & W Class J to be the fnest steam locomotives of all time, just edging out the NY Central Niagaras.
Try running a 16 foot high J on the New York Central where the clearances we we're 15'3''.
I like Southern Pacific and others
But Norfolk and western’s had some Pretty Locomotives and powerful locomotives as well
611 has a Royal look to her
1218 is one of my favorite articulated engines
2156 is a honorable mention as she’s a Y6A
Was the ysa a part of the engine series called y5a and the y6b's?
I meant Y6A
I only now noticed that I misspelled it
1218 is also my favorite one too because of POWER
That's why they call 611 the queen of steam
1151 is another one I hope they restore she is a pioneer for the others she was build in 1911
The last steam run on the N&W was on May 7th, 1960.
Ah, the Norfolk and Western, my favorite railroad
Background footage from Operation Fast Freight. Now that's a railroad documentary i havent seen in a while. Happy to see it used
I have operated on just about every one of N&W's still active lines
You should do a video on the Nickel Plate Road next 😉
Good video on the Norfolk and Western and Norfolk Southern. Thanks for mentioning Western Maryland interchange.
You left out the sudden abandonment of the steam program. 611 was lucky to survive as operable. A class 1218 was in for service at the time. Hauled off to Roanoke museum and cosmetically restored. Millions $ to restore to running condition. Glad to have ridden behind the 1218 and 611 in the 80s.
Alco, Baldwin, and Lima together couldn’t even compare to the fantastic designs and build quality of the Roanoke Shops.
Hmm I wouldn’t say that
@@sweetmyth2537 Think about it.
The best 4-8-4 with the highest Tractive Effort without a Booster was the J, the best Articulated that was both lighter and more powerful in both Horsepower and Tractive Effort than the U.P Challenger was the A, and the best Mallet in terms of Tractive Effort was the Y.
What about the K-1 class mountains? They were pulled out of passenger service because they had counterbalance problems that tended to initiate a jerking motion at speed, according to a retired N&W Mechanical Department supervisor. Then there were the K-3s. The K-2 s, built by Baldwin, were well regarded.
@@williamclarke4510hat was the K3’s, not the K1’s. That was probably their only hiccup.
One of the biggest reasons why N&W kept steam on for so long, even into dieselization, was again: The Coal. Not only were individual steam locomotives much more powerful than even several early diesels MU'ed together, but more importantly the N&W not only shipped the coal to other customers, they also used it themselves. It just made more economic sense to keep using locomotives that could use the fuel source that was right there on their doorstep and that they could practically get for free rather than having to import diesel fuel from as far away as Texas in order to run these new-fangled locomotives that weren't even a match for their giant mallets anyway. It wouldn't be until the downturn in the domestic coal industry in the 1960's and improvements in diesel loco technology that N&W finally saw the writing on the wall and phased out their steam fleet.
I've read that an A or a Y-6 was the equivalent of two and a half GP-9 s.
N&W purchased coal seams specific to the fuel requirements of its steam locomotives.
Didn't help that EMD paid huge sums of money for N&W to scrap steam and basically gave them diesels for nothing. In 1952 N&W leadership proclaimed they had enough new steam locomotives to last well into the 21st century. Good call on the difference between engines and motors: Engines make power, motors consume it. People that conflate the terms are ignorant. Always love it when some car guy says "Thats a great motor in that car!". Which one? The starter motor, fan motor, winshield wiper motor, power window motor?
Happy to see a video about my backyard railway, N&W steamers and modern day diesels have been photographed in the exact same area, with the exact same infrastructure, with only minor differences thanks to our coal industry surviving on. One thing that gets me is everyone talks about West VA and Kentucky when they talk about coal fields but as someone who works in the gas fields with many family members working in the coal fields, I can assure you the southwestern part of Virginia is coal country too. Great video, hope you continue these break downs of older railways
The N&W then N&S used to come through my home town. Plus many of the lines ran through the nearby towns. Most of which they abandoned in the late 80s. Miss the days when trains would come in to town to pick up furniture and lumber from 1 of the nearby town when I was a kid. Miss those days of the trains in my hometown.
*Norfolk Southern* There is no & in NS.
@Train Tok Man what you the text police or something deal with the mistake move on.
@@hillbillytrucker8347 I’m just saying it is only Norfolk Southern, not Norfolk & Southern. It’s a common mistake people make.
Under Smith’s leadership N&W wouldn’t allow any diesel locomotives on property. Two jointly operated passenger trains with the N&W and Southern Railway were the Pelican and the Tennessean. Those passenger trains were operated by steam while on N&W property. The diesel locomotives were added back to the passenger trains at exchange points.
Interestingly, there was a proposed merger between N&W and C&O/B&O (which, of course, would later be known as Chessie System). If this proposed merger had taken place, the combined company would have been known as Norfolk & Western and thus prevented the rest of us from knowing the joys of all things Chessie .
The Norfolk & Western is my favorite railroad in the history of the universe
Interseting fact. The current Norfolk Southern took its name from the previous company (Norfolk Southern Railroad) that operated from 1881 - 1974
But when before that merger happened. They changed the name so that way the company can have Norfolk Southern Railroad
🎵Norfolk and Western, there’s no stopping us. Service you can count on, from the people you can trust. When there’s cargo moving, time is time to put it on the light. On Norfolk and Western, there’s no stopping us.🎵
NW was literally surrounded by fuel. Coal was so easy to access it did make sense to continue to rely on them far later than others.
The N&W had their own coal mines, with seams of coal specific to steam locomotive requirements.
D&RG should be next, in my opinion its the most interesting railroad in america.
Actually should be the southern railway the other half on NS because that would make since
My Dad worked for a Norfolk & Southern Subsidiary for almost 30yrs. NS owned northAmerican Van lines from 84 to 98. They sold NAVL for a quick $200MM when they went in with CSX to buy out Conrail.
Also Norfolk and Western had probably one of best song from railroad
Try search "There's No Stopping Us Norfolk and Western"
Thanks very much for the tip. Also sometimes has Cargo Moving People starting the title :
ua-cam.com/video/zP69fQBiNXQ/v-deo.html
Composed and sung by C.W McCall so very professional and catchy.
Now you need to talk about their other half Southern
Two things:
1. Can we see the Frisco next please? Don’t forget the Frisco Silver Dollar Line either when you do it.
2. Speaking of steam vs. diesel, you know, in my own Lego City display, coal fired steam locomotives still remain the dominant form of tractive effort on the railway, with a total of 6 steam locomotives to only 4 diesel and 4 electric locomotives. Technically there is a fifth electric locomotive, but I don’t count it as it’s only an electric cab car for the real end of the Metroliner, and doesn’t feature it’s own engine or 9V Lego train motor.
Enjoy!
Wow, N&W really had it very good no matter what the occasion, also Robert Hall Smith WE LOVE U SOOOOO MUCH!!!!!
I did some work on Norfolk Southern's new office building in Atlanta once upon a time
Looking forward to the successful C&O video
Tell me history in the dark could you tell Winston Link's story regarding this railroad?
Great job on the documentary. Very informative!
You really need to talk about the failure of the Spsf merger and sp in general
I would love to see a piece on The Virginian Railroad. Also, I think the electrified section on Elkhorn Mountain belonged to the Virginian, not the N&W
Actually, N&W did have an electrified stretch of track that used the old Elkhorn tunnel. When the new tunnel was built, and the curves and grades brought to manageable levels, the wires came down, and steam regained the throne.
Recognizing a threat early really helps.
Norfolk and Western kept using steam for so long for 2 reasons; they were still making money hand-over-fist using them and they didn't want to borrow as much money as it would take to dieselize the whole fleet. The steam locomotives were already paid for. Saunders scrapped so many locomotives to make more money from the scrap sale then just donating them away for nothing.
Please do a history of southern railway/railroad
I like Union Pacific but i also like Norfolk & Western because of their Y6b and Y6a i like big trains so thats why i like Union pacific & N&W also can you do succes of Union pacific and can you talk about the Duluth,Misabe & iron range railroad also can you make a video about The London north eastern railway or LNERS U1 garrat and make a video about Burma/myanmar railways
Great video! I live in Columbus, OH and we have a few N&W bridges still around. They are beautiful!
Lynchburg and Durham! Thanks for the honarable mention.
Would like to see 611 in person, whenever I'm on the east Coast. Man, Alfred Pearlman really has a problem with steam locomotives.
I don't know if Alfred Pearlman had a problem with steam locomotives, as much as he had a mountain of problems running the New York Central...which this channel covered admirably. As somebody who has run 1/8 scale live-steam locomotives as a hobby for nearly 20 years, I can tell you that they are pretty darn labor-intensive; I could see how diesel and electrics would be attractive, especially for a company having issues with red ink. Also, Alco (the main supplier of locomotives for the NYC) was switching over to diesel locomotives, and going away from steam, so his hands were tied in that respect. (They didn't have their own shops that built, like the PRR and N&W, and both Baldwin and Lima were also switching to diesels.)
It would have been nice if some Hudsons and/or Niagaras had been saved, but, alas...we don't know what we've got 'til it's gone.
@@moosecat What's red ink Also hearing that you get to run live steam engines makes me jealous
Now we oughta see one of these on the southern
Norfolk Southern is my favorite freight railroad company ever.♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
The last five N&W A's built (1238 -1242) with their roller bearing rod refinement were the most advanced simple articulated steam locomotives ever built. Unfortunately, most of the A's were all scrapped at the end of steam. Luckily, A 1218 still survives as an earlier built example.
Oh yea N&W
Guys listen to one of those songs about N&W
Quite funny here in Windber PA
NS brings coal out of this town because that’s how Windber became to be
You mean that we are cargo movin’ people song?
@@RedTeddy_Productions yes exactly
Now that I think about it as N&W being very very successful tough troopers that they were and still are after they became Norfolk Southern they’re a VERY VERY big inspiration for people who want to be just as successful as them
A point of historical information... the "merger mania" of the 1960s and 1970s was kicked off by N&W. N&W as you point out was a strong a profitable coal hauler. When the railroads began merging in the late 1950s (sparked in part by the Pennsylvania and New York Central talking about merging in 1957) the rest of the industry immediately reacted by exploring their own merger options. N&W, being cash rich, went on a spending spree. It leased or outright purchased several other railroads, vastly expanding the system. N&W merged the Virginian Railway in 1959, and in 1964 it leased the Wabash Railroad for 999 years, bought the Pittsburgh & West Virginia, merged the Nickle Plate Road, and merged the Akron, Canton & Youngstown. This system was as large as the recently completed corporate merger of the Chesapeake & Ohio with the Baltimore & Ohio and Western Maryland Railway. Those three became the Chessie System. N&W and Chessie were nearly equal in size and became fierce rivals.
Penn Central didn't maintain track but repainted their locos. N&W said, we don't need no stinking paint scheme. Reporting marks will do just fine.
The PRR owen a lot of N&W it was the PRR side that took down the Penn Central
I live literally walking distance (0.29 miles) from the Norfolk Southern Buffalo line in Millersburg, Pennsylvania
THE N&W WILL NEVER DIE 😎
Also btw one of the best things about Pocahontas Glory by Herron Rail Video is you see N&W M 475, N&W E2 578, and N&W J 611 in the 1950s. N&W M 475 can be seen in Pocahontas Glory volumes 2, 5, and 8 while N&W J 611 is in Pocahontas Glory volumes 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and 8. N&W E2 578, which is on display at the Ohio Railway Museum in the Columbus area, can be seen in Pocahontas Glory volumes 5 and 8. Sadly there is no 1950s N&W 1218 footage from this multi volume DVD series only late 1980s and early 1990s N&W 1218 footage but N&W 1217 is shown in Pocahontas Glory Volume 6, Volume 7, Volume 8, and Rails to Roanoke - The 1987 NRHS Convention while N&W 1219 is in Blue Ridge Steam. N&W 1218 does have a few 1950s pictures taken of her in service and N&W Y6a 2156 does have a little bit of 1950s footage. Volume 5 features a small portion of N&W 2174 footage during the 1959 summer excursion.
I liked "Pillars of Smoke in the Sky" the intro states "We think that you will agree With us that this is one of the best railfan films of all time.". The film was done with the Co-operation of N&W management using professional caliber video and recording equipment.
@@williamclarke4510 yea me too its a really good film about N&W coal movements over blue ridge
I would just like to say something, Norfolk Southern actually came before CSX.
Norfolk Southern was formed in 1982
CSX was formed in 1986
Only formally. The holding company was formed in 1980 so N&W and SR knew what was coming.
@@HistoryintheDark Ah Ok thanks for updating me on this.
And they both stink.
I'd love to see a video on the Burlington Northern
Omg you talked about it, can you talk about the Santa Fe and BN merge story?
Could you talk about Union Pacific?
Nice to see a good railway once and a while (Can you pls do the Southern Railway next?)
As a very proud southern West Virginian that grew up in the coal fields and going to visiting my paternal grandmother in Roanoke in the mid/late 60's...my dad would take me down to see all the old steam locomotives awaiting their demise at the Roanoke shops. When dad returned from the South Pacific Campaign in WWII, he and mom settled in Bluefield. Dad went to work for Appalachian Power Company as a Class A Transmission Lineman. My family early history has involved the Coal Industry.
Coal was king and helped build an Industrial Behemoth that was the United States.
I love the y6a and y6b I would get one to run on my ho scale layout but there so dang expensive
Great video, it'd be cool to hear about the history of NS's other half, the Southern Railway, and I love the music you use for these videos, I've been trying to find some of it just to listen too but I have no idea what any of the songs are called
It’s the Railroad Tycoon 2 soundtrack.
@@HistoryintheDarkthank you sir
Well I picked up Herron Rail Video's Glory Machines volume 2 which features the N&W for bout 6 minutes but it shows 2 survivor engines at these timestamps:
N&W 611 at 38:30
and N&W 2156 at 41:02
took some pausing, skipping and slowing the video to bout 50% but was able to make out the road numbers on the sides of the engines
He going to relay a success story for change.
E & W: "The Coal must flow."
Can you discuss the Atlantic Coast line, I am from Jacksonville, please do it
This was basically *50 shades of coal*
I have heard that Robert La Massena wrote an article in Trains. He maintained that the reason Saunders dieselized so fast was the merger with the Virginian was based on n a stock swap.He bought and borrowed every diesel that he could in an effort to pump up N&W stock relative to that of the already dieselized Virginian.
Norfolk & Western was the king of steam locomotives. I have the book called the last steam railroad in America. It has photos that were taken in the1950’s before the diesels came to the Norfolk & Western railroad. The late O.Winston Link took the photos. Norfolk & Western designed & built nearly all of their own steam locomotives in Roanoke, VA.
Imagine is Norfolk Southern had all of the Railroad merged with N&W as heritage units
The electrics! I love those huge big chungus with their big connecting rods, including European versions like the Dm and Dm3 classes from the swedish railways
7:59 That picture I believe is when they tied a model J to the real J and was said the model pulled the real thing. Idk if it's true or not, but still cool seeing a model next to its real counterpart.
Sir. Topem Hat? That was great. I never thought about that but it's true lol
Besides N ans W Union Pacific kept a few of their steam engines running all the way into the early 60s for their freight runs. One of these being the big boys all the way until 1959.
I love your railroad history videos may I suggest a new video if you haven't already done it. The Little Giant the Pittsburgh and Lake Erie Raikroad
I’m starting to think that the NorthWestern railway from Thomas & Friends was based on the Norfolk and Western railroad.
Make a video about the conrail breakup!! Have no clue what was merged or abandoned
I do hope that you talk about the SAL railroads aka Seaboard Air Line Railroad and the chasse railroads next since those two mergin is what case the n&w and sul to merge
This is the best RR
I live by a set of train tracks that is owned by Norfolk Southern, and I see freight trains go by pretty much all the time.
16:12 that is an N&W K2 class. They were relatives of the J class because they had identical streamlining shrouds.
Plz May u make a future video on Union Pacific?
Do a Chessie system video next
Perlman after seeing the survivals of 475, 611, 1218, 2050, and 2156:
Hey can you make the story of Boston and Main 3666
Can you do a video on conrail.
cool
We need a t shirt with Saunders and a text that says “no steam”
There is LITERALLY no stopping them!
Because it’s service you can count on!
The only thing about your video I find confusing and want clarification on. The N&W merger with Southern you say was caused by CSX, but that merger happened 4 years before the Chessie-Seaboard merger that formed CSX. So did N&W and Sou merge because of talk of the Chessie-Seaboard merger, or in anticipation of?
CSX, the holding company, was established in 1980. Their full merger into what they are today was very gradual and wasn't done until 1987, but N&W and Southern knew what was coming and acted in their best interests.
can you do a video about tweetsie railroad
Now make a video about Union Pacific.
So, Monon next?😉
Link once gave a talk in Roanoke. He had urged then president R.H. Smith to preserve two of every class of steam locomotive and use the Virginian roundhouse in ROANOKE as a museum. He was greeted with skepticism. Smith was a hard nosed no nonsense business man, not a railfan. Additionally, there was no grass roots support for preserving steam, with the exception of the 611. The "Spirit of Roanoke" ? As one knowledgeable person ( not from Roanoke, but spent a fair amount of time in the East End Shops with a steam engine ) put it- " Hah! The City of Roanoke doesn't give a f--- about the museum. Bruce Sterzing did all that. He is now president of the D&H and no longer in Roanoke. If you want to accomplish anything, you had better find someone at N&W who has plenty of pull and will listen to you.". As the late George Kelch ( friend, mentor, N&W 50 year man, and founder of the present Roanoke NRHS chapter) put it- "And they made him president of the D&H just to get him out of town, because he was so rabid about preservation.".
Please do a video on Union Pacific
Did you know about the penn central heritage locomotive
Hey Darkness, did you know that the Virginian Railway was a subcity railroad of the N&W?
there was a offer to buy the El from the chessie system but the EL unions said no
Question, How could CSX be a pain in the N&W's tail end when CSX was not formed tell 1986 and Norfolk Southern was formed in 1982 ? See if the Southern RR. and the Norfolk and Western merged in 1982 and CSX did not show up tell 1986, its kind of hard for CSX to bother the N&W before CSX was created. Maybe you R thinking of Conrail?