"Prog was pretentious and overblown, and then punk came along and music was good again." This is certainly the accepted wisdom. So why do I still listen to prog a lot, and almost never listen to punk?
It's almost like the average behavior of a population can't tell you anything certain about the behavior of individual people in that population. Who woulda thunk?
@@griffinhan-lalime4357I don't know. I think the behavior of a % of the people can tell you A LOT about that % of the population. Very often they aren't necessarily GOOD things, quality and aesthetic-wise- bad taste is rampant in popular culture. Far from everything is s***, but for every Beatles there's a thousand Milli Vanillis. Progressive Rock was given it"s moment in history, blink, perhaps, and you might miss it, when looking back musically- but not too long after the break-up of the Beatles, right before that loud, screeching noise blew out the headphones, Yes, ELP & co were on top.
As someone whose teenage years spanned 67 to 73, most spent at boarding school, Prog is the soundtrack of my youth. The talent, diversity, complexity of Prog still is my happy place, from In the Court of the Crimson King to Tubular Bells, adding ELP, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, Pink Floyd and others. Immersive music to escape into, or challenge, never bettered. 🎉
I might have missed it, but when you were referring to the English Aesthetic you neglected to mention Folk Music. Both the form and the poetic structure of it. This applies to both English and Irish folk, which, during the late Sixties and into the early Seventies, underwent quite the revival among that decade's younger generation. So there were bands like Pentangle, Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, Planxty as well as the earlier Dubliners The Chieftains and the Clanceys to name but a few (yes, I know they're Irish!). Folk idioms can be heard throughout Prog and Rock, from the Beatles, the Stones, Zeppelin, the Moodies, Floyd and really any prog band that came up during that era. So it wasn't just the literary influence of the likes of Shakespeaare, Keats, Browning or Rossetti but the corresponding musical folklore heritage as well. The interesting thing about the folk revival is that it, too, can be seen as Prog. Groups like Magna Carta, Horslips, Strawbs, Third Ear Band, The Incredible String Band (yes... what can we say about them?!), Jethro Tull and Steeleye Span can all be considered Prog to one degree or another, by virtue of their mixing elements of jazz, blues, rock, Indian and Middle Eastern music into the basic folk pattern. And the Pogues can be considered Folk Punk. I haven't seen Part Two of this series, so you may well have already covered this aspect there, but I think it's worth a mention, regardless. It's just one more thing that makes Prog such a worthwhile dive into.
"Does Yes go in for ANY lemon squeezing?" I'm sorry Andy, I lost it when you said that. 🤣🤣🤣 Great introduction to the series sir. And yes, I think 75% should be the lowest percentage allowed to be prog.
The only two criteria I have any issue with are: Musical complexity and virtuosity e.g. Floyd are probably the first band everyone thinks of when you say 'Prog', but don't contain much of either IMO. Similarly, many of the Kraut Rock bands that are deemed inextricably linked to Prog have more in common with the spirit of the Velvet Underground and the Stooges than say, assimilating classical music/literary concepts into Rock etc. The other one is: Integration of the 'English Aesthetic' in rock n roll/blues forms. Although I do get the gist of what I think you mean i.e. the cradle of so-called Symphonic Prog was clearly England circa 66/67, this argument, if extended to the whole of Prog just starts to err on the side of an ethnocentric bias.
As an avid Prog fan, I never completely considered Zeppelin to fall into this category. But after having viewed this most educational episode, I’m beginning to see where Zeppelin can come into play. Yeah without a doubt, their 3rd album does show some Prog tendencies. In addition, you also mentioned Carouselambra. No wonder I’ve always had a heart throb for that one 😆. Having said, I’m still not sure yet if I’m ready to include Zeppelin as one of the Prog giants. But what a great topic this is. I’ll be certain to watch part 2 of this intriguing series.
Thanks for doing this. I've been fascinated by the history of progressive rock and how earlier bands like the Beatles and Beach Boys provided influences for the genre. Can't wait to learn more about this history.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I thought Oh Yeah was a classic the first time I heard it on release in 1976.Your right Andy it's right up there with the M.O. stuff !
I've always had a problem with the difference between progressive music and 'prog' and what it has become. I got into 'real' or serious music when i was about 11 or 12 back in 1970. When you went to a record shop, all the singles and easy listening etc were in the main part, but downstairs was 'contemporary' or 'underground' or 'progressive'. Progressive was the best description as it was about pushing back the frontiers of music. There was a massive spectrum of new music back then and genres were not really formalised especially as how many bands covered such a wide range of musical styles. A band like Black Sabbath were part of that spectrum at the heavy end, they were very heavy and quite morbid in a good way, likewise Mahavishnu were jazz oriented but still part of that massive progressive spectrum, fusion seemed a category within progressive music. 'Prog' no longer seems progressive by virtue of being a specific classification and would exclude bands that have produced something new but that doesn't fit into 'prog' criteria.
Andy - a great start to the series. I look forward to the rest. In starting out you mentioned that Prog was castigated for being pretentious and self-regarding. Far from a detriment, I would say that this should be number 11 on your list. It is arguable that all great art is pretentious and self-regarding: pretentious because it is trying to move art on from where it currently is, taking the best of the past and forging something new and original without necessarily trashing all that went before; and self-regarding because artists achieve greatness by being driven to do what they do, regardless of whether someone else wants them to do it, even if they are paying for it! In my (admittedly) humble opinion, the best of Prog exhibited these characteristics and found an audience of similar mind. So, number 11 for your list. (By the way, I think Gentle Giant made an album titled "Pretentious and Proud of it". If so, good on them!) (By the way 2 - while Punk was fun, its anti-intellectualism doomed it to repetition and mediocrity, which is why the best bands rapidly became Post-Punk and, arguably, Prog - the Stranglers, anyone?). Thanks for the provocation.
So glad to have discovered your ambitious project. Since Covid and the lock down I have been diving deeply into this genre and completely agree with your proposition. Inclusion!
The Chambers Dictionary definition of "prog rock" is 'a genre of rock music, popular especially in the 1970s, featuring complex and often lengthy compositions incorporating elements of classical music and jazz, with lyrics inspired by science fiction, fantasy and mythology". Pretty close correlation with your ten criteria, but perhaps worth acknowledging mythology as a significant hallmark of prog.
Very interesting to an old prog rocker. I'm looking forward to the rest of this series very much. If you'd asked me when I was fifteen I'd have said prog was: mellotrons, capes and the cause of your girlfriend (if you were lucky enough to have one) to roll her eyes and call you a prat. As for punk - the attitude was timely but the music was just bad heavy rock without the musicianship. The belch after the great feast of psychedelic and progressive music that had begun in the mid sixties.
Yes... enjoyed it immensely, and i can't wait for the follow ups. Prog on! Led Zeppelin are one of those bands that are seen by many to touch all types of genre's. I think they are more Progressive than Heavy Metal say. Where ever they fall, they are very good....
We are not worthy! You've done a great service by offering a credible way to operationalize the age-old question "Is this prog?" What I like about it is that it illustrates the huge overlap between "Prog" and "progressive" while explaining why lots of music is fully progressive without being fully Prog (and vice versa). Surprisingly, by my accounting Sun Ra gets a 90%. At first, I thought that that's an anomaly that discredits your system. But on reflection, I realized that, actually, Sun Ra was very prog, arguably from the start (1957 or so) but certainly by 1965 (Heliocentric Worlds). Raising the question: Was Sun Ra the first Prog artist? True, he wasn't rock (until 1965, with "Batman and Robin - The Sensational Guitars of Dan and Dale"), but actually your list makes no mention of rock until #10 -- the one criterion Sun Ra misses (no English Aesthetic).
The "English Esthetic/Accent Criteria" will exclude anything non-british! Fair enough. Patrick Moraz 1st solo album 1976 with Ray Gomez, Berlin, Mouzon + vocals - bizarre prog brazil-influenced album
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It's true that the pioneers, being primarily British, embraced the English esthetic. But could this be expanded into a more generic "Cultural Esthetic"? As an example, Kansas were definitely prog-first in their first several albums, but their esthetic leaned toward Native American, and American southern styles
Excellent video Andy. I think you nailed it with the parameters and characteristics. I'm going to apply to this to some of my favorite post-punk bands such as Siouxsie and the Banshees and see where they land. I have a feeling another favorite band, Mr Bungle, will have a pretty high prog score as well. Cheers and looking forward to the next installment!
Great video, looking forward to the rest. On the progometer (which spell-check wanted to change to prog omelette-isn’t all prog an omelette of sorts?) I’d rate a few more before deciding on where the bar should be set. Finally, does point 10 mean that all non-English bands will be docked 10% from the off? Makes it tougher for European or US bands to meet the qualification, wherever it ends up being set. Cheers!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I am now listening to both 'Fireballet' albums and I would have to say that of all the U.S. bands that I can think of they could surely have that English Aesthetic more so than any other ?
Wow you mentioned Don Ellis! My favorite "rock" band is King Crimson and my favorite Jazz band is the Don Ellis big band. I saw him open for the pop band Bread at a local college two weeks before he recorded the live album "Tears of Joy". He brought the house down with at least 2 standing ovations ( with the horns playing in the audience) at the end of his set. Many people walked out a couple of 3 minute songs into the Bread set. Loved it but I am a sucker for odd time signatures. BTW the main drummer was Ralph Humphrey.
I waffle between Relayer and CTTE as the greatest progressive albums. It's clear how very different Rick Wakeman and Patrick Moraz are on keyboards. Given the ten parameters, I'd probably put Kansas right up there at LZ's 70%, or possibly higher.
I really like the English aesthetic component. Many alleged American prog groups, or at least groups that started as prog, like Kansas, Styx, Ambrosia, Todd Rundgren's Utopia, Journey, and the like, just don't have the same feel as the British prog groups: Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, etc.
1. Long compositions using non pop song structure, often influenced by classical form. Classical mondern and less modern music is really the ancester of prog: 1. Carl Orff 2. Bela Bartok 3. Francis Poulenc 4. Zoltan Kodaly and finally of course: 5. Aaron Copeland All musicians that my defunct father cherished.
You can't leave out people like Stockhausen and musique concrete if you're talking about contributions to prog. Particularly early Pink Floyd and the Nice/Keith Emerson.
Thanks, Andy. I've just discovered your channel (the Algorithm does do good sometimes...) and am really enjoying your takes on prog and rock in general. Also making some good playlists on Spotify as well. Keep it up, mate👍🏻
Great vid and a great start, Andy! A lot to discuss here, but I'll go with this: I just listened to Ellis' Electric Bath and it's amazing stuff. What struck me is how it reminded me of Lalo Schifrin's spirited score on two soundtrack albums for the TV series Mission Impossible (which I first got as a kid - loved the show and the music), and which came out about the same time as the Ellis. Maybe there was something in the zeitgeist. And hey, the MI theme is in 5/4 (which rumor says U2 had to play in 4 for the film, supposedly couldn't swing the 5...). Looking forward to next!
One of the most prog things about Zeppelin was that they were four individuals who each brought something to the plate. They were often pulling in slightly different directions, especially the more John Paul Jones wrote.
Not really, it was always Jimmy's band. There were only two sides in any dispute, Jimmy vs Robert. Any friction usually stemmed from Robert wanting more say in Jimmy's vision of the band. Bonham sided with Plant as a rule and John Paul Jones with Page.
I have enjoyed your 10 criteria - what is PROG? The Warning are a young new band self styled "alternative rock" but by your criteria they are quite proggy. Yes they write short pop structure type songs but they have already made a concept album - Queen of the murder scene - and their lyrics cover many topics.
Great video and thanks for going over which elements make prog. I've seen a fair few videos about the history of prog, what prog is or starter prog but none of them go over what prog actually is.
100% on Andy Edwards progometer is "In Humanity" by Anyone. I'm surprised that more people don't mention this artist which in my opinion is far and away the best modern prog. and it's all created by one musician. total mind blow. it seems Andy's never heard it?
Looking forward to this series! Wonder how Gino Vannelli's 1970s albums would score on the progometer...? Might there be such a thing as romantic-fusion-prog?
I'll always argue that the first progressive album in popular music, unless I've missed something, is Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (1968) by Laura Nyro. Conceptual, virtuoso musicians, musically technically complex with improvisation, key, tempo, time, rhythm, dynamic changes, long songs in non traditional structure, genre combination, classical influences, complex chord progressions including compound chords, original poetic lyrics, and imagery including a fair bit of sex.
I had a great time watching this video, thanks Andy. Just a comment or two: I fully agree with your list. It seems to cover the important factors extensively, and there's obviously gone a lot of thought into this. As for the 70% thing: this might be a bit tricky, meaning that some points seem more important than others and therefore should be weighted differently. Just saying. Personally I like to divide the complete prog 'package' into two groups: the 'traditional' prog and the 'innovative' prog (probably self-explanatory). Any album that mainly contains definite influences of the big prog albums of the 60s and 70s and that was created any time after these recordings I place into the first group. But that's just me.
I was listening to a bit of Sun Ra before I watched this. He scored about 9 out of 10. No English aesthetic, but a Saturn aesthetic is pretty proggy. He might be the inventor of this stuff!
Man yes, Sun Ra - one of the most visionary and everlastingly satisfying in my book. I continue stamp-collecting his stuff - many new releases every year!
Great vid as always. I'd put non-standard chord changes as a separate point (and perhaps the most important one). You covered it though, it is baked into musical complexity.
Agreed on Happy the Man but what about Brand X Prog or Fusion ? they did have lyrics later so where do those albums fit in. Or what about a 25 minute Curved Air song with no vocals, is it still not Prog ?
Thank for your reflections. I've been a prog fan for 50 years now, I've talk 'bout it with many friends for years, (I've had a prog radio program and have wrote an unpublished prog book) but I've never thought of "not blues vocal influences", what a great observation!!! Your "progmeter" is a great contribution. Of course "Yes" is the prototypical prog band and "Zepp" isn't. (although I love "Ramble On" lyrics: 'T was in the darkest depths of Mordor I met a girl so fair, But Gollum and the evil one Crept up and slipped away with her"). Think "Tool" may score higher. 😊
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer No doubt about it, it certainly is. Also "Kashmir", "Achiles last stand" and (of course) "Stairway to heaven" are Prog. I agree with "progmeter" on Zepp being 70% prog. (and I wouldn't dare argue prog with Andy Edwards 😇). Thanks for your "History of Prog"
I don’t think Zep were a prog band but we don’t live in a vacuum so they were certainly influenced by things that were happening at the time. Over that decade the experimentation was happening everywhere, even in throwaway pop music, so there will be influences. I think the interesting question is what influenced what…classical influences, what was the first album to introduce this…maybe The Nice…what an amazing period of music where things would shift and change within weeks
I love the Prog-o-Meter idea. You would have to include Syd Barrett in there somewhere But what do we do about Scott Walker? This video is Prog but your hair is pure Jazz. Thanks Andy, brilliant chat. 70 to 75 % is a good place for a boundary line
Great stuff. Your methodology works !! I absolutely see Zeppelin from this perspective, and always have. Especially if we see ‘Prog’ as a signifier of a mode as much a genre. When they are in this mode they are very nearly as much ‘Prog’ as anybody, albeit with high concentrations of ‘some’ of your criteria, as opposed to ‘all’, with the totality being more disseminated across their full body of work. My fave part of vid……. “Maybe they knew back then I’d come up with this list” 😂😂
I’m reasonably open regarding the notion of myself being a nerd/geek. However, it’s of a kind that spent his younger years stuck in libraries rather than in computer classes, otherwise I’d volunteer lol However, I’d be flabbergasted if there’s not some tech nerds who watch this channel. The Progometer needs to ‘be’ ….. “I Quantify Prog, therefore I Am” !!
Encompassing the theme. Today I lustened to my favourite Lenny White lp. The Adventures of Astral Pirates. Definitely Jazz Fusion. But because of it's obvious storyline I'd say it has a big PROG element. What are your thoughts.
Possibly your greatest video to date; certainly had me in stitches, anyway! The 10 criteria are well chosen, I think. Criteria, criteria on the wall, who are the proggiest of them all?
When my guitar playing grows stagnant (!) I do the following: I bind my left ring and pinky with a number 64 rubber band (elastic) and I play with my two Django fingers, the middle and index and my playing changes (much more melodic). If you do this at home don't make the elastic tight. It's actually not necessary however muscle memory will kick in. I call it the Django Method of Dropping bad habits or some pretentious drivel. It works everytime and changes my playing.
Really looking forward to this Prog epic series ! On Zep being Prog it has always been an itch I couldn't scratch. Example Achilles Last Stand. Are Zep the first band to put Prog lyrics into a blues song ?!
I think one band who are never mentioned by any of these channels is Parliament who tick many of these. They definately qualify for a prog discussion. They have been going since the 1950s (before the beatles even) and are still making good, interesting music today. I find it incredibly sad how consistently overlooked they are by prog and rock listeners.
At first I thought Camel - The Snow Goose would fail to meet the 75% threshold, but then I remembered it includes non-blues vocals (without words) so it passes on a technicality. It has no lyrics (despite the whole album being a literary allusion), and no sci-fi/fantasy themes, but it includes everything else, making it 80% prog. If we exclude criteria 2 and 3 for instrumental prog, it's 87.5%, which I think is more fair.
Love the Yesometer you just invented but I'm afraid I'm going to spend way too much time the next several weeks grading bands and albums because of it 😀
The definition of the hallmarks show, that you are a very gifted teacher. To the English aesthetic i would also assume Bands such als Slade, Blur and of course Oasis - even if they aren´t prog coz of the other definitions.
You're right that rock was heavily influenced by the blues, to the extent that some bands - I'm thinking particularly of Fleetwood Mac - were essentially blues bands rather than rock bands. I don't know if it was that they just "turned their backs" on the blues or whether it was as much the question of whether white men could (or should) sing the blues that pushed them away from it. It was a huge issue at the time, so much so that the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band recorded a song called Can Blue Men Sing The Whites, to make fun of the situation. It is well worth listening to.
Mmm... The solos you hear on YesSongs were not improvised. YES were rehearsed to the Nth degree. I was there, I saw them seven times between 1971 and 1975. Steve Howe's extended solo in the middle of Your's Is No Disgrace was virtually the same every time (apart from the first time I saw them, when he played the solo lines from the original track). They might have improvised the material in the studio as part of the writing process, but they had everything fully prepared on the stage.
So I looked for a band that is nailed-on prog to stress-test your scoring system with and came up with your favourite dislike, Van Der Graaf Generator. If they aren't 100% prog, there's a rabbit off. On your scale I'm struggling to give them more than 65% (e.g. only 5% for technology, and all of that down to Jaxon's saxophone box of tricks). The first and biggest characteristic of progressive music that comes to mind for me is "disruptive". Some of the points on your 10-point list capture that notion, but it doesn't get star billing.
you've started it now Andy ;) Great ideas. For me Zep are right on the margin. It will be interesting to see how other bands score on your test. Osibisa are another band who had Roger Dean artwork but weren't prog.
If a song like Goodbye Stranger by Supertramp is not a prog rock song I would say Houston there is a problem. The Fool's Ouverture is a very good prog song. For me prog rock doesn't include that much groups outside Genesis (Gabriel period), Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull. Zappa did great jazz rock blues funk Doo wop music but that wasn't prog rock.
I must agree with your placing Led Zeppelin in the prog camp......at least 70% prog. But because of their huge blues influence, they must remain solidly ROCK. However, I must place Kate Bush as prog. She would head 'art rock' but this is a sub-category.
Fascinating! I tried pulling up a similar system years ago and came up with Gentle Giant and Egg as the most prog of bands. I'd need to listen again, but you do seem to downmark European bands who integrate their own aesthetic into the r'n' r/blues form. I can't see that PFM, Banco or Anglagard are any less prog than Genesis or Yes. I'll watch the other parts and find out!
This is a great essay. An exposition. Prog is an odd animal. We all know prog bands. But what makes them prog? I do think that your point#10 is pretty important. Because I'm thinking almost all points you make, can apply to Frank Zappa. But I would not think of Zappa as prog. Edit - okay I just started watching episode 2, and the very first album called up, is Zappa, haha..
Maybe you have answered this before - I just stumbled on to your videos - but what about Queen? Do they make it as a prog rock band? I'm thinking especially of album's like Queen II, Night at the Opera, Day at the Races, News of the World...? Do they make 75%? Thanks for your work. Looking forward to exploring your channel.
You know, your approach, in three parts, with 60 albums, an overture - THIS is prog!
I decided to BE PROG....for CHRISTMAS!!!!
Well it had to be a trilogy
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer If prog is full of literary allusions why do the critics, who you say are words based, denigrate prog?
"Prog was pretentious and overblown, and then punk came along and music was good again." This is certainly the accepted wisdom. So why do I still listen to prog a lot, and almost never listen to punk?
It's almost like the average behavior of a population can't tell you anything certain about the behavior of individual people in that population. Who woulda thunk?
@@griffinhan-lalime4357I don't know. I think the behavior of a % of the people can tell you A LOT about that % of the population.
Very often they aren't necessarily GOOD things, quality and aesthetic-wise- bad taste is rampant in popular culture.
Far from everything is s***, but for every Beatles there's a thousand Milli Vanillis.
Progressive Rock was given it"s moment in history, blink, perhaps, and you might miss it, when looking back musically- but not too long after the break-up of the Beatles, right before that loud, screeching noise blew out the headphones, Yes, ELP & co were on top.
Anytime i would prefer an Steve Howe solo than any pseudo-song from punk
PROG is in the TITLE! I've got to watch!!
As someone whose teenage years spanned 67 to 73, most spent at boarding school, Prog is the soundtrack of my youth. The talent, diversity, complexity of Prog still is my happy place, from In the Court of the Crimson King to Tubular Bells, adding ELP, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant, Pink Floyd and others. Immersive music to escape into, or challenge, never bettered. 🎉
Keep warm fellah, looking forward to part 2
I might have missed it, but when you were referring to the English Aesthetic you neglected to mention Folk Music. Both the form and the poetic structure of it. This applies to both English and Irish folk, which, during the late Sixties and into the early Seventies, underwent quite the revival among that decade's younger generation.
So there were bands like Pentangle, Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, Planxty as well as the earlier Dubliners The Chieftains and the Clanceys to name but a few (yes, I know they're Irish!).
Folk idioms can be heard throughout Prog and Rock, from the Beatles, the Stones, Zeppelin, the Moodies, Floyd and really any prog band that came up during that era. So it wasn't just the literary influence of the likes of Shakespeaare, Keats, Browning or Rossetti but the corresponding musical folklore heritage as well.
The interesting thing about the folk revival is that it, too, can be seen as Prog.
Groups like Magna Carta, Horslips, Strawbs, Third Ear Band, The Incredible String Band (yes... what can we say about them?!), Jethro Tull and Steeleye Span can all be considered Prog to one degree or another, by virtue of their mixing elements of jazz, blues, rock, Indian and Middle Eastern music into the basic folk pattern.
And the Pogues can be considered Folk Punk.
I haven't seen Part Two of this series, so you may well have already covered this aspect there, but I think it's worth a mention, regardless. It's just one more thing that makes Prog such a worthwhile dive into.
Andy
Your energy is killer. Love your spirit and knowledge. Thanks for all the content. Keep up the good work!!
"Does Yes go in for ANY lemon squeezing?" I'm sorry Andy, I lost it when you said that. 🤣🤣🤣 Great introduction to the series sir. And yes, I think 75% should be the lowest percentage allowed to be prog.
The only two criteria I have any issue with are: Musical complexity and virtuosity e.g. Floyd are probably the first band everyone thinks of when you say 'Prog', but don't contain much of either IMO. Similarly, many of the Kraut Rock bands that are deemed inextricably linked to Prog have more in common with the spirit of the Velvet Underground and the Stooges than say, assimilating classical music/literary concepts into Rock etc. The other one is: Integration of the 'English Aesthetic' in rock n roll/blues forms. Although I do get the gist of what I think you mean i.e. the cradle of so-called Symphonic Prog was clearly England circa 66/67, this argument, if extended to the whole of Prog just starts to err on the side of an ethnocentric bias.
Love these vids, Andy! Keep 'em coming!
Glad you like them!
This is actually quite awesome. Love the Progometer! Cheers!
“The Progometer.” Really, I’m in fits! Brilliant vid. Cheers, Andy.
Many thanks!
Interesting approach. I'm looking forward to the next episodes. I'm also looking forward to the video on the English Aesthetic.
Coming soon!
Hahaha! Nice! 'maybe they called themselves Yes because they knew you would make this list' haha
Great video. Looking forward to the next.
what a great start andy it tells also that sometimes when people say you are crazy thats not prog about a band is a bit shortsided
As an avid Prog fan, I never completely considered Zeppelin to fall into this category. But after having viewed this most educational episode, I’m beginning to see where Zeppelin can come into play. Yeah without a doubt, their 3rd album does show some Prog tendencies. In addition, you also mentioned
Carouselambra. No wonder I’ve always had a heart throb for that one 😆. Having said, I’m still not sure yet if I’m ready to include Zeppelin as one of the Prog giants. But what a great topic this is. I’ll be certain to watch part 2 of this intriguing series.
Love the translation before opening - The History of Prague - think I'd prefer that. 😀
Thanks for doing this. I've been fascinated by the history of progressive rock and how earlier bands like the Beatles and Beach Boys provided influences for the genre. Can't wait to learn more about this history.
So happy you mentioned the importance of Don Ellis.
Off subject Andy. Thanks to you I'm now extending my Mahavishnu collection. Jean Luc is perfection.
Jan Hammer...next then...Oh Yeah is up there with any MO album
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I thought Oh Yeah was a classic the first time I heard it on release in 1976.Your right Andy it's right up there with the M.O. stuff !
I've always had a problem with the difference between progressive music and 'prog' and what it has become. I got into 'real' or serious music when i was about 11 or 12 back in 1970. When you went to a record shop, all the singles and easy listening etc were in the main part, but downstairs was 'contemporary' or 'underground' or 'progressive'. Progressive was the best description as it was about pushing back the frontiers of music. There was a massive spectrum of new music back then and genres were not really formalised especially as how many bands covered such a wide range of musical styles. A band like Black Sabbath were part of that spectrum at the heavy end, they were very heavy and quite morbid in a good way, likewise Mahavishnu were jazz oriented but still part of that massive progressive spectrum, fusion seemed a category within progressive music. 'Prog' no longer seems progressive by virtue of being a specific classification and would exclude bands that have produced something new but that doesn't fit into 'prog' criteria.
Someone needs to do a '10 Hallmarks of Prog' T-shirt.
Andy - a great start to the series. I look forward to the rest. In starting out you mentioned that Prog was castigated for being pretentious and self-regarding. Far from a detriment, I would say that this should be number 11 on your list. It is arguable that all great art is pretentious and self-regarding: pretentious because it is trying to move art on from where it currently is, taking the best of the past and forging something new and original without necessarily trashing all that went before; and self-regarding because artists achieve greatness by being driven to do what they do, regardless of whether someone else wants them to do it, even if they are paying for it! In my (admittedly) humble opinion, the best of Prog exhibited these characteristics and found an audience of similar mind. So, number 11 for your list. (By the way, I think Gentle Giant made an album titled "Pretentious and Proud of it". If so, good on them!) (By the way 2 - while Punk was fun, its anti-intellectualism doomed it to repetition and mediocrity, which is why the best bands rapidly became Post-Punk and, arguably, Prog - the Stranglers, anyone?). Thanks for the provocation.
Maybe not the first, but' a day in the life'? Chord changes, classical, using the studio, etc
Oh my, you started something.... I love it 👍🙏
Yes! Thank you!
we need another 10-point tick list for other genres, clearly, 2023 is looking up, nice one Andy.
10 Hallmarks of Fuzak!!! Thats a great idea...
So glad to have discovered your ambitious project. Since Covid and the lock down I have been diving deeply into this genre and completely agree with your proposition. Inclusion!
You had me hooked when you promised to challenge the mainstream critical view... I'm in!
Thank you for giving this music the respect that it deserves.
JT
HI Andy, the Canterbury Scene needs your undivided attention. Or have you already done so?
Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream and Jean Michel Jarre are definitely prog plus a lot more in their ingredients!
deffo progressive music
The Chambers Dictionary definition of "prog rock" is 'a genre of rock music, popular especially in the 1970s, featuring complex and often lengthy compositions incorporating elements of classical music and jazz, with lyrics inspired by science fiction, fantasy and mythology". Pretty close correlation with your ten criteria, but perhaps worth acknowledging mythology as a significant hallmark of prog.
Very interesting to an old prog rocker. I'm looking forward to the rest of this series very much. If you'd asked me when I was fifteen I'd have said prog was: mellotrons, capes and the cause of your girlfriend (if you were lucky enough to have one) to roll her eyes and call you a prat. As for punk - the attitude was timely but the music was just bad heavy rock without the musicianship. The belch after the great feast of psychedelic and progressive music that had begun in the mid sixties.
Yes... enjoyed it immensely, and i can't wait for the follow ups. Prog on!
Led Zeppelin are one of those bands that are seen by many to touch all types of genre's. I think they are more Progressive than Heavy Metal say. Where ever they fall, they are very good....
We are not worthy! You've done a great service by offering a credible way to operationalize the age-old question "Is this prog?" What I like about it is that it illustrates the huge overlap between "Prog" and "progressive" while explaining why lots of music is fully progressive without being fully Prog (and vice versa). Surprisingly, by my accounting Sun Ra gets a 90%. At first, I thought that that's an anomaly that discredits your system. But on reflection, I realized that, actually, Sun Ra was very prog, arguably from the start (1957 or so) but certainly by 1965 (Heliocentric Worlds). Raising the question: Was Sun Ra the first Prog artist? True, he wasn't rock (until 1965, with "Batman and Robin - The Sensational Guitars of Dan and Dale"), but actually your list makes no mention of rock until #10 -- the one criterion Sun Ra misses (no English Aesthetic).
Anyone who claims to have come from Saturn is prog in my book...
Glad you mentioned even 50s Sun Ra. I agree!!!
Loved the Rain album. Really great. Can't wait for the next one.
I'm really surprised Yes turned out to be prog!
The "English Esthetic/Accent Criteria" will exclude anything non-british! Fair enough. Patrick Moraz 1st solo album 1976 with Ray Gomez, Berlin, Mouzon + vocals - bizarre prog brazil-influenced album
Rush and Focus have the English Aesthetic but Jamiriquai dont
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It's true that the pioneers, being primarily British, embraced the English esthetic. But could this be expanded into a more generic "Cultural Esthetic"? As an example, Kansas were definitely prog-first in their first several albums, but their esthetic leaned toward Native American, and American southern styles
looking out for the other parts and i liked the way you did yes and led zeppelin at the end .
thats a new aproach and good aproach
Excellent video Andy. I think you nailed it with the parameters and characteristics. I'm going to apply to this to some of my favorite post-punk bands such as Siouxsie and the Banshees and see where they land. I have a feeling another favorite band, Mr Bungle, will have a pretty high prog score as well. Cheers and looking forward to the next installment!
Dont tell anyone but Bungle are on the list.....
Great video, looking forward to the rest. On the progometer (which spell-check wanted to change to prog omelette-isn’t all prog an omelette of sorts?) I’d rate a few more before deciding on where the bar should be set. Finally, does point 10 mean that all non-English bands will be docked 10% from the off? Makes it tougher for European or US bands to meet the qualification, wherever it ends up being set. Cheers!
I would say that Focus and Rush both have elements of the English Aesthetic in their sound...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I am now listening to both 'Fireballet' albums and I would have to say that of all the U.S. bands that I can think of they could surely have that English Aesthetic more so than any other ?
Wow you mentioned Don Ellis! My favorite "rock" band is King Crimson and my favorite Jazz band is the Don Ellis big band. I saw him open for the pop band Bread at a local college two weeks before he recorded the live album "Tears of Joy". He brought the house down with at least 2 standing ovations ( with the horns playing in the audience) at the end of his set. Many people walked out a couple of 3 minute songs into the Bread set. Loved it but I am a sucker for odd time signatures. BTW the main drummer was Ralph Humphrey.
He was a genius...if he had not died I think he would be much better known nowadays
Oh yeah Turkish bath is great
I waffle between Relayer and CTTE as the greatest progressive albums. It's clear how very different Rick Wakeman and Patrick Moraz are on keyboards. Given the ten parameters, I'd probably put Kansas right up there at LZ's 70%, or possibly higher.
I really like the English aesthetic component. Many alleged American prog groups, or at least groups that started as prog, like Kansas, Styx, Ambrosia, Todd Rundgren's Utopia, Journey, and the like, just don't have the same feel as the British prog groups: Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, etc.
Had to laugh out loud during your brief discussion concerning "lemon squeezing". Well done...
1. Long compositions using non pop song structure, often influenced by classical form.
Classical mondern and less modern music is really the ancester of prog:
1. Carl Orff
2. Bela Bartok
3. Francis Poulenc
4. Zoltan Kodaly and finally of course:
5. Aaron Copeland
All musicians that my defunct father cherished.
You can't leave out people like Stockhausen and musique concrete if you're talking about contributions to prog. Particularly early Pink Floyd and the Nice/Keith Emerson.
@@ChrisRamsbottom I cite these ones. That does not mean that there are not others.
Progressive Rock will generally take you on a journey. Keyboards also help, but sometimes you can do without.
Thanks, Andy. I've just discovered your channel (the Algorithm does do good sometimes...) and am really enjoying your takes on prog and rock in general. Also making some good playlists on Spotify as well. Keep it up, mate👍🏻
Great vid and a great start, Andy! A lot to discuss here, but I'll go with this: I just listened to Ellis' Electric Bath and it's amazing stuff. What struck me is how it reminded me of Lalo Schifrin's spirited score on two soundtrack albums for the TV series Mission Impossible (which I first got as a kid - loved the show and the music), and which came out about the same time as the Ellis. Maybe there was something in the zeitgeist. And hey, the MI theme is in 5/4 (which rumor says U2 had to play in 4 for the film, supposedly couldn't swing the 5...). Looking forward to next!
One of the most prog things about Zeppelin was that they were four individuals who each brought something to the plate. They were often pulling in slightly different directions, especially the more John Paul Jones wrote.
Not really, it was always Jimmy's band. There were only two sides in any dispute, Jimmy vs Robert. Any friction usually stemmed from Robert wanting more say in Jimmy's vision of the band. Bonham sided with Plant as a rule and John Paul Jones with Page.
I have enjoyed your 10 criteria - what is PROG? The Warning are a young new band self styled "alternative rock" but by your criteria they are quite proggy. Yes they write short pop structure type songs but they have already made a concept album - Queen of the murder scene - and their lyrics cover many topics.
Great video and thanks for going over which elements make prog. I've seen a fair few videos about the history of prog, what prog is or starter prog but none of them go over what prog actually is.
m.ua-cam.com/video/dwj91hTgc-c/v-deo.html
prog 2022! let the music answer the question
BTW
The Death Defying Unicorn got 10.3 on the progometer
Punk vs. Prog is the same thing as Rockers vs. Mods and it all feels like made by the media.
Years ago I said to friend that unlike the Stones and other British bands Floyd were among the first to embrace their native accent in rock.
I don't think you can dock points for Yes not always meeting your test. They met it. Mission accomplished.
JT
100% on Andy Edwards progometer is "In Humanity" by Anyone. I'm surprised that more people don't mention this artist which in my opinion is far and away the best modern prog. and it's all created by one musician. total mind blow. it seems Andy's never heard it?
love it ... can't watch now ... will watch tomoz.
taken several real ales so there! haha :)
Queen 11 and the Prophets Song from A Night at the Opera are pure Prog
Great stuff. Gotta have a clear definition. I'm hoping you discuss Jimi's 1983.
Looking forward to this series! Wonder how Gino Vannelli's 1970s albums would score on the progometer...? Might there be such a thing as romantic-fusion-prog?
Gino comes out 70% prog.....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Congratulations Gino! :)
I'll always argue that the first progressive album in popular music, unless I've missed something, is Eli and the Thirteenth Confession (1968) by Laura Nyro. Conceptual, virtuoso musicians, musically technically complex with improvisation, key, tempo, time, rhythm, dynamic changes, long songs in non traditional structure, genre combination, classical influences, complex chord progressions including compound chords, original poetic lyrics, and imagery including a fair bit of sex.
Zappa Freak Out 1966
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Thanks. I've never listed to that album.
I'm going to use your scoring on Uriah Heep, Lucifer's Friend, and McKendree Spring.
I had a great time watching this video, thanks Andy. Just a comment or two: I fully agree with your list. It seems to cover the important factors extensively, and there's obviously gone a lot of thought into this. As for the 70% thing: this might be a bit tricky, meaning that some points seem more important than others and therefore should be weighted differently. Just saying.
Personally I like to divide the complete prog 'package' into two groups: the 'traditional' prog and the 'innovative' prog (probably self-explanatory). Any album that mainly contains definite influences of the big prog albums of the 60s and 70s and that was created any time after these recordings I place into the first group. But that's just me.
spoken like a true progger. I think we need a weighted mean and a chi-squared test for each band :)
You should set this to music - a history of prog composition 8-P
I was listening to a bit of Sun Ra before I watched this. He scored about 9 out of 10. No English aesthetic, but a Saturn aesthetic is pretty proggy. He might be the inventor of this stuff!
black prog + born in Birmingham = 0.5
(ignore Alabama)
Sun Ra!!!! There is nothing more Prog than HE!
@@narosgmbh5916 The case grows stronger!
Man yes, Sun Ra - one of the most visionary and everlastingly satisfying in my book. I continue stamp-collecting his stuff - many new releases every year!
This guy is amazing.
Great vid as always. I'd put non-standard chord changes as a separate point (and perhaps the most important one). You covered it though, it is baked into musical complexity.
Thats a good one....
Split Enz (which I consider prog) would definitely get points for that.
Agreed on Happy the Man but what about Brand X Prog or Fusion ? they did have lyrics later so where do those albums fit in. Or what about a 25 minute Curved Air song with no vocals, is it still not Prog ?
Well worth checking out my previous videos.There is one called Prog or Fusion...
Petula was at the cutting edge of the prog avant garde…talking smack about the Tula! 😂
She is great in 'I Know Where I Am Going'
Thank for your reflections. I've been a prog fan for 50 years now, I've talk 'bout it with many friends for years, (I've had a prog radio program and have wrote an unpublished prog book) but I've never thought of "not blues vocal influences", what a great observation!!!
Your "progmeter" is a great contribution. Of course "Yes" is the prototypical prog band and "Zepp" isn't. (although I love "Ramble On" lyrics: 'T was in the darkest depths of Mordor
I met a girl so fair, But Gollum and the evil one Crept up and slipped away with her"). Think "Tool" may score higher. 😊
No Quarter is very very Prog....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer No doubt about it, it certainly is. Also "Kashmir", "Achiles last stand" and (of course) "Stairway to heaven" are Prog. I agree with "progmeter" on Zepp being 70% prog. (and I wouldn't dare argue prog with Andy Edwards 😇). Thanks for your "History of Prog"
I don’t think Zep were a prog band but we don’t live in a vacuum so they were certainly influenced by things that were happening at the time. Over that decade the experimentation was happening everywhere, even in throwaway pop music, so there will be influences. I think the interesting question is what influenced what…classical influences, what was the first album to introduce this…maybe The Nice…what an amazing period of music where things would shift and change within weeks
I love the Prog-o-Meter idea. You would have to include Syd Barrett in there somewhere But what do we do about Scott Walker? This video is Prog but your hair is pure Jazz. Thanks Andy, brilliant chat. 70 to 75 % is a good place for a boundary line
the hair is part of the British aesthetic
@@narosgmbh5916 there are hidden meanings everywhere
Great stuff.
Your methodology works !!
I absolutely see Zeppelin from this perspective, and always have. Especially if we see ‘Prog’ as a signifier of a mode as much a genre. When they are in this mode they are very nearly as much ‘Prog’ as anybody, albeit with high concentrations of ‘some’ of your criteria, as opposed to ‘all’, with the totality being more disseminated across their full body of work.
My fave part of vid……. “Maybe they knew back then I’d come up with this list” 😂😂
I need to copyrite the 'prog-o-meter'! Surely with the amount of middle aged nerds that watch this channel someone could design me an app...
I’m reasonably open regarding the notion of myself being a nerd/geek. However, it’s of a kind that spent his younger years stuck in libraries rather than in computer classes, otherwise I’d volunteer lol
However, I’d be flabbergasted if there’s not some tech nerds who watch this channel. The Progometer needs to ‘be’ ….. “I Quantify Prog, therefore I Am” !!
Encompassing the theme. Today I lustened to my favourite Lenny White lp. The Adventures of Astral Pirates. Definitely Jazz Fusion. But because of it's obvious storyline I'd say it has a big PROG element. What are your thoughts.
Those three Lenny White albums are all very proggy.
And Lenny's version of Kashmir. Fusion NOT prog. Zep aren't prog. They just rock.
@ToucanMan, how about No Quarter or The Rain Song?
Possibly your greatest video to date; certainly had me in stitches, anyway! The 10 criteria are well chosen, I think. Criteria, criteria on the wall, who are the proggiest of them all?
Radiohead....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Please tell me that's a joke.
21:22 bad luck Andy, you are at least 60% jazz fusion!
When my guitar playing grows stagnant (!) I do the following: I bind my left ring and pinky with a number 64 rubber band (elastic) and I play with my two Django fingers, the middle and index and my playing changes (much more melodic). If you do this at home don't make the elastic tight. It's actually not necessary however muscle memory will kick in. I call it the Django Method of Dropping bad habits or some pretentious drivel. It works everytime and changes my playing.
Really looking forward to this Prog epic series !
On Zep being Prog it has always been an itch I couldn't scratch.
Example Achilles Last Stand.
Are Zep the first band to put Prog lyrics into a blues song ?!
I think Jimi and Cream may have beaten them to it...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer
Damn your right .
I guess I was thinking they were more of the psychedelic persuasion
I think one band who are never mentioned by any of these channels is Parliament who tick many of these. They definately qualify for a prog discussion. They have been going since the 1950s (before the beatles even) and are still making good, interesting music today. I find it incredibly sad how consistently overlooked they are by prog and rock listeners.
We can see your favorite prog band is yes,again ,mostly with close to the edge.Will we be stuck with this for alll vidéos?
Yes are not most featured on this list by a long shot
At first I thought Camel - The Snow Goose would fail to meet the 75% threshold, but then I remembered it includes non-blues vocals (without words) so it passes on a technicality. It has no lyrics (despite the whole album being a literary allusion), and no sci-fi/fantasy themes, but it includes everything else, making it 80% prog. If we exclude criteria 2 and 3 for instrumental prog, it's 87.5%, which I think is more fair.
This is going to be a really unique series of episodes. Led Zeppelin scoring 70% on the progometer? What a conundrum!
Love the Yesometer you just invented but I'm afraid I'm going to spend way too much time the next several weeks grading bands and albums because of it 😀
Sid James on the shelf. Love it!
Tomorrow my wife is making Christmas Cookies (you might call biscuits)
I think they’ll get a 40% on the Prog-O-meter
Excellent analysis of prog thanks
Glad you liked it!
The definition of the hallmarks show, that you are a very gifted teacher. To the English aesthetic i would also assume Bands such als Slade, Blur and of course Oasis - even if they aren´t prog coz of the other definitions.
You're right that rock was heavily influenced by the blues, to the extent that some bands - I'm thinking particularly of Fleetwood Mac - were essentially blues bands rather than rock bands. I don't know if it was that they just "turned their backs" on the blues or whether it was as much the question of whether white men could (or should) sing the blues that pushed them away from it. It was a huge issue at the time, so much so that the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band recorded a song called Can Blue Men Sing The Whites, to make fun of the situation. It is well worth listening to.
You were at number 7 of Zep when my alarm went off playing a Led Zeppelin song. Bonus points if you can name it.
Immigrant Song?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I'll give you half the bonus points for getting the Song part right, - The Wanton Song
Mmm... The solos you hear on YesSongs were not improvised. YES were rehearsed to the Nth degree. I was there, I saw them seven times between 1971 and 1975. Steve Howe's extended solo in the middle of Your's Is No Disgrace was virtually the same every time (apart from the first time I saw them, when he played the solo lines from the original track). They might have improvised the material in the studio as part of the writing process, but they had everything fully prepared on the stage.
Yes...that sounds accurate. IQ were the same, tons of improv in the writing then everthing note for note on the gig
So I looked for a band that is nailed-on prog to stress-test your scoring system with and came up with your favourite dislike, Van Der Graaf Generator.
If they aren't 100% prog, there's a rabbit off.
On your scale I'm struggling to give them more than 65% (e.g. only 5% for technology, and all of that down to Jaxon's saxophone box of tricks).
The first and biggest characteristic of progressive music that comes to mind for me is "disruptive". Some of the points on your 10-point list capture that notion, but it doesn't get star billing.
you've started it now Andy ;) Great ideas. For me Zep are right on the margin. It will be interesting to see how other bands score on your test. Osibisa are another band who had Roger Dean artwork but weren't prog.
Excellent. Looking forward to this run of videos. Will Supertramp finally be named prog? Will Black Sabbath? Will XTC? All will be revealed by Andy.
If a song like Goodbye Stranger by Supertramp is not a prog rock song I would say Houston there is a problem.
The Fool's Ouverture is a very good prog song. For me prog rock doesn't include that much groups outside Genesis (Gabriel period), Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull. Zappa did great jazz rock blues funk Doo wop music but that wasn't prog rock.
I must agree with your placing Led Zeppelin in the prog camp......at least 70% prog. But because of their huge blues influence, they must remain solidly ROCK.
However, I must place Kate Bush as prog. She would head 'art rock' but this is a sub-category.
I'm listening to new music thanks to your advice. Songs of the wood at the moment
by Jethro Lull?
Brilliantly entertaining
Fascinating! I tried pulling up a similar system years ago and came up with Gentle Giant and Egg as the most prog of bands. I'd need to listen again, but you do seem to downmark European bands who integrate their own aesthetic into the r'n' r/blues form. I can't see that PFM, Banco or Anglagard are any less prog than Genesis or Yes. I'll watch the other parts and find out!
This is a great essay. An exposition. Prog is an odd animal. We all know prog bands. But what makes them prog? I do think that your point#10 is pretty important. Because I'm thinking almost all points you make, can apply to Frank Zappa. But I would not think of Zappa as prog. Edit - okay I just started watching episode 2, and the very first album called up, is Zappa, haha..
Maybe you have answered this before - I just stumbled on to your videos - but what about Queen? Do they make it as a prog rock band? I'm thinking especially of album's like Queen II, Night at the Opera, Day at the Races, News of the World...? Do they make 75%? Thanks for your work. Looking forward to exploring your channel.
Yes I have dealt with this and they made my 10 greatest prog tunes list. That might be of interest to you.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Thank you!