Coming in the clouds considerations: The Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 7:13, the phrase "he came as the Ancient of Days" appears as "καὶ ὡς παλαιὸς ἡμερῶν παρῆν" (kai hos palaios hemeron paren), which translates to "and like the Ancient of Days he came near" - essentially describing "one like a son of man" approaching the figure referred to as the "Ancient of Days.". If this is true, as I don't understand Greek other than the strongest concordance, then did he come in the clouds of war? As the ancient of Days has done repeatedly through the scripture? Exodus 15:3 says, "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name". Exodus 15:3 is part of a song that Moses and the Israelites sang to the Lord after Moses led the Israelites through the Red Sea: Exodus 15:1: "I will sing to the LORD, for he is highly exalted" Exodus 15:2: "Both horse and driver he has hurled into the sea" Exodus 15:3: "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name" "coming on the clouds of war" is Isaiah 19:1, which says, "Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.". "he comes on the clouds of war" Jeremiah 4:13, where the prophet describes an impending enemy coming like storm clouds, signifying imminent judgment and destruction, with imagery of war chariots and swift horses like eagles; essentially, God's wrath approaching as a powerful and overwhelming force. Isaiah 10 for the describes the Assyrian is God's army. Psalm 18:10 describes God's rapid rescue of David from his enemies, and depicts God as a mighty warrior riding on a cherub and the wings of the wind: as in Deuteronomy 31:3 then invisible warrior God proclaimed the following through Moses: The Lord thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the Lord hath said.4 And the Lord shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.5 And the Lord shall give them up before your face Jeremiah 4:13 "Look, the enemy is coming like clouds. Their war chariots are like a whirlwind, and their horses are faster than eagles". Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him". Ezekiel 32:10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. Exodus 13:17-14:29 God led the Israelites on their journey by day in a pillar of cloud and by night in a pillar of fire. chapter 14, the Lord uses a "pillar of cloud and fire" to fight against the Egyptian army, essentially using the cloud as a means to confuse and disrupt their pursuit of the Israelites, effectively allowing the Israelites to escape across the Red Sea; this is considered a pivotal moment where God's power is clearly demonstrated against the Egyptian forces. the Babylonian army as a seemingly overwhelming and fast-moving force, comparing the sight of their numerous war chariots to a dark cloud covering the land, signifying their swift and powerful approach to battle, often used in historical or literary contexts to depict the sheer scale and intimidation of their military presence. There are many such passages explaining the clouds of war and the use of heathen armies to bring God's judgment. If our Lord Jesus came as the ancient of Days In The clouds of heaven ( Daniel 7:14), Hallelujah, would it not be that he came as the clouds of the Roman army! The fourth mighty army to bring judgment upon his chosen people? As proclaimed in Daniel chapter 2:44 to once again take back his Kingdom from the Edomite King and the apost Jews that pierced him? Further delivering the Christians, his elect, from the four corners of heaven to the furtherance of the Gospel of the Kingdom using the Roman roads to deliver this message throughout the known world after the destruction of Israel in 70 AD? Just some thoughts, may the Lord God bless you brother Doug! In Christ Jesus name
The Sun darkens: fascinating similarities Zechariah 14:6 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light". At the fall of the first temple: Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. At the fall of the second temple: Matthew 24 Immediately after the distress of those days “ 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. ' “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. In the beginning: Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. (Governing bodies) People as the governing bodies: Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? Deposing a heathen King: Ezekiel 32:6 will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. 7And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God. The day he punished Babylon: Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 14 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. At the destruction of the 2nd Temple: Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion…. There appears to be many such verses throughout the scripture, and it seems to be that the Sun the moon and the stars were darkened when the kingdoms/governing authorities were deposed from their thrones so to speak? From a glance? May the Lord God bless you!
Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. Herod was born in southern Palestine to an Edomite (idumean) father, Antipater, and a mother named Cypros. Antipater was a wealthy and influential man who converted to Judaism in the 2nd century BCE. Herod was driven from Judea by a usurper during a period of conflict within the Hasmonean family. He escaped to Rome, where he convinced the Roman Senate of his support for Rome. The Roman Senate then declared him "King of the Jews". Ephesians 6:12 lsv "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places". Possible reason to question, is this passage talking about the edumain king that was ruling over the Jews, as he was not there flesh and blood?
Holy Ones in Scripture: Zechariah 14:5: Proverbs 13:24, which states "Whoever spares the rod hates their child, but the one who loves their child is careful to discipline them," parallels Isaiah 10 where Assyria is referred to as a "rod" used by God to punish Israel, highlighting the idea that discipline, even when harsh, can be an act of love when used appropriately by a higher authority to correct wrongdoing; both passages illustrate the concept of using a "rod" as a tool for discipline, with the key difference being that in Proverbs the focus is on parental discipline, while in Isaiah, it's God using a nation (Assyria) as an instrument of punishment against Israel. Isaiah 10:5, God refers to Assyria as "the rod of my anger" and "the staff in whose hands is my indignation": Isaiah 45:1-3: "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut". In this verse, God refers to Cyrus as his anointed one and promises to help him conquer nations, dethrone kings, and open doors for him. God also promises to give Cyrus hidden treasures and riches, and to make him strong so that people will know that there is no other God but him. the Book of Obadiah, God "called the Heathen" (or nations) to rise up against Edom and bring judgment upon them, essentially using other nations as instruments to punish Edom for their cruelty towards Israel, as Edom had shown no mercy to the Israelites during their time of distress; this is seen as a message that even those considered "heathen" can be used by God to enact justice when necessary. Isaiah 13:3, when God refers to "sanctified ones," he is not talking about a group of holy people in the traditional sense, but rather a heathen army, specifically the Medes and Persians, who were set apart by God to carry out his judgment against Babylon; meaning they were "sanctified" in the sense that God had chosen them for a specific purpose, even though they were not considered morally holy by other standards. According to Ezekiel 32, the "Fierce King" sent to destroy Pharaoh is the King of Babylon. The prophecy describes the Babylonian army as the instrument of God's judgment against Egypt, symbolized by the "sword of the king of Babylon" coming upon Pharaoh. 32:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net. According to Isaiah 19, the kingdom prophesied to bring destruction upon Egypt is Babylon; the text specifically mentions that God will use the power of Nebuchadnezzar, And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. 4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts. Daniel chapter 2 proclaims four sanctified armies as rods of God, for the correction and preservation of Israel? Babylonians, medo- Persians, Greeks and then the Romans. According to the similar passages, with the Romans be this holy army called by God? Sanctified, for this purpose? As all the heathen armies were used according to God's word for this same purpose, by the Lord of hosts? Lord of hosts" translates to "Yahweh Tseva'ot" in Hebrew, where "Yahweh" means "Lord" and "Tseva'ot" means "hosts" or "armies" - essentially signifying "The Lord of Armies"
Matt 24;14 -- the english word "world" is translated from the Greek word oikoumene rather than cosmos. Oikoumene means Roman empire's area of reign; cosmos means the entire earth. This is one of the few times Matthew uses oikoumene which should be a clear indication that the meaning is NOT entire earth or world as we may preconceive it to be. So, the end shall come when the Gospel is preached to all the oikoumene not cosmos. Paul says this occured therefore the end must have also occured.
Have you considered the new book "The Hope of Israel and the Nations" May be some overlap with your thoughts as Burgess is also avoiding systematic categories. Letting the Bible speak for its self.
His feet on the mountain AI Overview Zechariah 14:4, a prophecy states that on the "Day of the Lord," the Lord's feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will split in two from east to west, creating a large valley with one half of the mountain moving north and the other half moving south; this is often interpreted as a dramatic and cataclysmic event associated with the Second Coming of Christ. (The river that flowed out of the Garden of Eden and divided into four rivers is described in Genesis 2:10-14: The rivers were thought to flow from the Garden of Eden towards the four corners of the earth) AI Overview (prior to first temple destruction) In Ezekiel 10, the vision describes the "glory of the Lord" rising up from the middle of the city and moving to a mountain situated to the east of the city, signifying the departure of God's presence from Jerusalem and the temple; this is often interpreted as a symbol of impending judgment upon the city. AI Overview Ezekiel 11:23 says, "And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city". In this chapter, Ezekiel judges Jerusalem's "wicked counsellors" and promises that God will restore Israel. Some commentaries suggest that the mountain in this verse is the Mount of Olives. AI Overview Ezekiel 36:35: "And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited". In this passage, God's blessing will cause a population explosion and the land of Israel will be compared to the sinless creation of the Garden of Eden. The passage also describes how the cities will be resettled and the ruins rebuilt. AI Overview (prior to 2nd temple destruction) In Matthew 23 After Jesus strongly criticized the Jewish leaders in the temple for their hypocrisy and greed, he then left the temple grounds and went to the Mount of Olives, signifying a symbolic departure from the corrupt religious practices of the time and a move towards a place of solitude and prayer, often seen as a prelude to his prediction about the destruction of the temple and the coming judgment on Jerusalem; this is primarily described in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 23-24. The Wars of the Jews, 6.288 Flavius Josephus translated by William Whiston « J. BJ 6.287 | J. BJ 6.288 | J. BJ 6.289 | 288 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. 293 Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. 300 and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for everyone to make tabernacles to God in the temple, Fascinating how the Google AI came up with so many interesting facts, and truly to see that the Spirit of God rose up and left the temple and went to the mountain on the east just as Jesus also chastise the Jews and left the Temple and went to the mountain to the east of the Temple. In both cases it was prior to the destruction of the Temple and the sacking of the city of Jerusalem. Lol, I don't really know how to get the AI to generate a paper, but it would be interesting to see all of this put together in a flowing format. My grammar skills only further confuse the matters. Glory to God and thank you Jesus
Being the guy who asked about dual/multiple fulfillment, I think you mischaracterized my point by using a false dichotomy (namely, if all prophecy is not fulfilled twice, none is). I am wondering if you might not have seen my response to your reply. So, I'll repost it here: "How long winded can I be? The short answer is, “What hasn’t happened yet”? My example was Jesus’ return. I think we need to be careful about insisting all that Zechariah prophesied was already fulfilled. While I agree with your concept of literal and directional fulfillment, I happen to believe that Immanuel was literally fulfilled, given the ancient eastern concept of a name being who and what you are. "Immanuel" = "God with us" was literally fulfilled. So, when we discover a prophecy that seems not to have been fulfilled literally yet, let’s not be quick to put it in the directional category and dismiss that it might have future literal fulfillment. Let’s learn from the Pharisees and Jewish rulers (who were dogmatically looking for a conquering King). Therefore, we should not be too dogmatic in our interpretation." Here is an example of dual/multiple fulfillment. In 167 BC, Antiochus Epiphanes quite literally fulfilled the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. However, Jesus tells us 200 years later that the abomination of desolation is yet to come (Mt 24:15). I am trying to keep an open mind and hang in there to see where you are going with this; and I appreciate your encouragement to keep our presuppositions at bay. However, that goes for your position of 70 AD complete fulfillment position as well. One thing that confused me today was your equating Jesus' statement in Mt 24:27 with the siege of Jerusalem by Roman Army. Jesus was talking about the sign of "the coming of the Son of Man" not the coming of the Roman Army. I understand your point of the unmistakable nature of these two signs. However, I see two separate events being signaled. One of which, the coming of the Son of Man, I don't believe has occurred yet. What am I missing?
If you read Luke 21:20-21 it tells you who the “abomination of desolation” was. It is not future to us now. Then read Matt 24:34 - that will give you your time constraint on Matt 24. His coming on the clouds was in Ref to Daniel 7. And the coming is also In relation to judgment, as in the Old Testament such as Egypt or Babylon or Others. I take Matt 24 split at verse 35.
I don't think that is an example of dual fulfillment. Jesus is simply telling them that another abomination of desolation will happen and when they see it they should flee. Scholars like Dr. Craig Keener have noted that there were several events that happened during that time period, before the destruction of the temple, that could've been labeled 'abomination of desolation' but the historian Josephus (not a christian by any means) believes that it happened in AD 66. This would've given the christians ample time to flee Jerusalem and Josephus, himself, states that not one christian was killed at the siege of Jerusalem (because they all saw the signs that Jesus prophesied and had fled.) Here's an excerpt from Dr. Keener: (Jesus) has already spoken of the temple being desolated (Matt. 23:38). Now he speaks of the promised “abomination,” or “desecration,” which brings about the “desolation” in the sanctuary (24:15). Josephus, the first-century Jewish historian who lived through the events that he describes, believes that the slaughter of the priests in the temple in 66 was the abomination which brought about the temple’s destruction three and a half years later, in A.D. 70. When the temple was destroyed, Romans set up images of Caesar, who was worshiped as a god, on the site. The year 70 was roughly a generation after Jesus warned of the coming desolation (somewhere around the year 30). Jesus warned those in Judea to flee into the hills (24:16); the massive Roman army would be less effective hunting fugitives on mountain trails, and both David and the Maccabees had found refuge in this way. Because people often dried vegetables or conversed with neighbors on their flat roofs, reached from the outside of the house, Jesus also warns those on the roof not to waste time entering the house (24:17). Peasants who needed their outer garments as blankets at night, but left them at the edge of the field as the workday’s sun grew hot, should abandon them and flee with haste (24:18). Jesus’ point was that judgment was coming, and people should flee as quickly as possible! (My wife, who is Congolese and had to flee as a refugee when war came, understood the importance of such haste.)
Fire will not harm the faithful follower!
Thanks brother!!
makes more sense when you see it in the NT
Coming in the clouds considerations:
The Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 7:13, the phrase "he came as the Ancient of Days" appears as "καὶ ὡς παλαιὸς ἡμερῶν παρῆν" (kai hos palaios hemeron paren), which translates to "and like the Ancient of Days he came near" - essentially describing "one like a son of man" approaching the figure referred to as the "Ancient of Days.".
If this is true, as I don't understand Greek other than the strongest concordance, then did he come in the clouds of war? As the ancient of Days has done repeatedly through the scripture? Exodus 15:3 says, "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name".
Exodus 15:3 is part of a song that Moses and the Israelites sang to the Lord after Moses led the Israelites through the Red Sea:
Exodus 15:1: "I will sing to the LORD, for he is highly exalted"
Exodus 15:2: "Both horse and driver he has hurled into the sea"
Exodus 15:3: "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name"
"coming on the clouds of war" is Isaiah 19:1, which says, "Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.".
"he comes on the clouds of war" Jeremiah 4:13, where the prophet describes an impending enemy coming like storm clouds, signifying imminent judgment and destruction, with imagery of war chariots and swift horses like eagles; essentially, God's wrath approaching as a powerful and overwhelming force. Isaiah 10 for the describes the Assyrian is God's army.
Psalm 18:10 describes God's rapid rescue of David from his enemies, and depicts God as a mighty warrior riding on a cherub and the wings of the wind: as in Deuteronomy 31:3 then invisible warrior God proclaimed the following through Moses: The Lord thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the Lord hath said.4 And the Lord shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.5 And the Lord shall give them up before your face
Jeremiah 4:13
"Look, the enemy is coming like clouds. Their war chariots are like a whirlwind, and their horses are faster than eagles".
Revelation 1:7
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him".
Ezekiel 32:10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.
Exodus 13:17-14:29
God led the Israelites on their journey by day in a pillar of cloud and by night in a pillar of fire.
chapter 14, the Lord uses a "pillar of cloud and fire" to fight against the Egyptian army, essentially using the cloud as a means to confuse and disrupt their pursuit of the Israelites, effectively allowing the Israelites to escape across the Red Sea; this is considered a pivotal moment where God's power is clearly demonstrated against the Egyptian forces.
the Babylonian army as a seemingly overwhelming and fast-moving force, comparing the sight of their numerous war chariots to a dark cloud covering the land, signifying their swift and powerful approach to battle, often used in historical or literary contexts to depict the sheer scale and intimidation of their military presence.
There are many such passages explaining the clouds of war and the use of heathen armies to bring God's judgment. If our Lord Jesus came as the ancient of Days In The clouds of heaven ( Daniel 7:14), Hallelujah, would it not be that he came as the clouds of the Roman army! The fourth mighty army to bring judgment upon his chosen people? As proclaimed in Daniel chapter 2:44 to once again take back his Kingdom from the Edomite King and the apost Jews that pierced him? Further delivering the Christians, his elect, from the four corners of heaven to the furtherance of the Gospel of the Kingdom using the Roman roads to deliver this message throughout the known world after the destruction of Israel in 70 AD?
Just some thoughts, may the Lord God bless you brother Doug! In Christ Jesus name
The Sun darkens: fascinating similarities
Zechariah 14:6 says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light".
At the fall of the first temple: Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
At the fall of the second temple: Matthew 24 Immediately after the distress of those days “ 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. ' “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
In the beginning: Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. (Governing bodies)
People as the governing bodies: Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Deposing a heathen King: Ezekiel 32:6 will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. 7And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
The day he punished Babylon: Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 14 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
At the destruction of the 2nd Temple: Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion….
There appears to be many such verses throughout the scripture, and it seems to be that the Sun the moon and the stars were darkened when the kingdoms/governing authorities were deposed from their thrones so to speak? From a glance?
May the Lord God bless you!
Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Herod was born in southern Palestine to an Edomite (idumean) father, Antipater, and a mother named Cypros. Antipater was a wealthy and influential man who converted to Judaism in the 2nd century BCE.
Herod was driven from Judea by a usurper during a period of conflict within the Hasmonean family. He escaped to Rome, where he convinced the Roman Senate of his support for Rome. The Roman Senate then declared him "King of the Jews".
Ephesians 6:12 lsv "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places".
Possible reason to question, is this passage talking about the edumain king that was ruling over the Jews, as he was not there flesh and blood?
Holy Ones in Scripture: Zechariah 14:5:
Proverbs 13:24, which states "Whoever spares the rod hates their child, but the one who loves their child is careful to discipline them," parallels Isaiah 10 where Assyria is referred to as a "rod" used by God to punish Israel, highlighting the idea that discipline, even when harsh, can be an act of love when used appropriately by a higher authority to correct wrongdoing; both passages illustrate the concept of using a "rod" as a tool for discipline, with the key difference being that in Proverbs the focus is on parental discipline, while in Isaiah, it's God using a nation (Assyria) as an instrument of punishment against Israel. Isaiah 10:5, God refers to Assyria as "the rod of my anger" and "the staff in whose hands is my indignation":
Isaiah 45:1-3: "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut".
In this verse, God refers to Cyrus as his anointed one and promises to help him conquer nations, dethrone kings, and open doors for him. God also promises to give Cyrus hidden treasures and riches, and to make him strong so that people will know that there is no other God but him.
the Book of Obadiah, God "called the Heathen" (or nations) to rise up against Edom and bring judgment upon them, essentially using other nations as instruments to punish Edom for their cruelty towards Israel, as Edom had shown no mercy to the Israelites during their time of distress; this is seen as a message that even those considered "heathen" can be used by God to enact justice when necessary.
Isaiah 13:3, when God refers to "sanctified ones," he is not talking about a group of holy people in the traditional sense, but rather a heathen army, specifically the Medes and Persians, who were set apart by God to carry out his judgment against Babylon; meaning they were "sanctified" in the sense that God had chosen them for a specific purpose, even though they were not considered morally holy by other standards.
According to Ezekiel 32, the "Fierce King" sent to destroy Pharaoh is the King of Babylon. The prophecy describes the Babylonian army as the instrument of God's judgment against Egypt, symbolized by the "sword of the king of Babylon" coming upon Pharaoh. 32:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net.
According to Isaiah 19, the kingdom prophesied to bring destruction upon Egypt is Babylon; the text specifically mentions that God will use the power of Nebuchadnezzar, And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. 4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts.
Daniel chapter 2 proclaims four sanctified armies as rods of God, for the correction and preservation of Israel? Babylonians, medo- Persians, Greeks and then the Romans. According to the similar passages, with the Romans be this holy army called by God? Sanctified, for this purpose? As all the heathen armies were used according to God's word for this same purpose, by the Lord of hosts?
Lord of hosts" translates to "Yahweh Tseva'ot" in Hebrew, where "Yahweh" means "Lord" and "Tseva'ot" means "hosts" or "armies" - essentially signifying "The Lord of Armies"
Matt 24;14 -- the english word "world" is translated from the Greek word oikoumene rather than cosmos. Oikoumene means Roman empire's area of reign; cosmos means the entire earth. This is one of the few times Matthew uses oikoumene which should be a clear indication that the meaning is NOT entire earth or world as we may preconceive it to be. So, the end shall come when the Gospel is preached to all the oikoumene not cosmos. Paul says this occured therefore the end must have also occured.
I wonder if the splitting of the mountain was the earthquake that tore the temple veil at Jesus's death?
in context who would be the shepherds in zechariah time
14:6-9 sounds like Jesus death resurrection..
Have you considered the new book "The Hope of Israel and the Nations" May be some overlap with your thoughts as Burgess is also avoiding systematic categories. Letting the Bible speak for its self.
His feet on the mountain
AI Overview
Zechariah 14:4, a prophecy states that on the "Day of the Lord," the Lord's feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will split in two from east to west, creating a large valley with one half of the mountain moving north and the other half moving south; this is often interpreted as a dramatic and cataclysmic event associated with the Second Coming of Christ.
(The river that flowed out of the Garden of Eden and divided into four rivers is described in Genesis 2:10-14: The rivers were thought to flow from the Garden of Eden towards the four corners of the earth)
AI Overview (prior to first temple destruction)
In Ezekiel 10, the vision describes the "glory of the Lord" rising up from the middle of the city and moving to a mountain situated to the east of the city, signifying the departure of God's presence from Jerusalem and the temple; this is often interpreted as a symbol of impending judgment upon the city.
AI Overview
Ezekiel 11:23 says, "And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city".
In this chapter, Ezekiel judges Jerusalem's "wicked counsellors" and promises that God will restore Israel. Some commentaries suggest that the mountain in this verse is the Mount of Olives.
AI Overview
Ezekiel 36:35: "And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited".
In this passage, God's blessing will cause a population explosion and the land of Israel will be compared to the sinless creation of the Garden of Eden. The passage also describes how the cities will be resettled and the ruins rebuilt.
AI Overview (prior to 2nd temple destruction)
In Matthew 23 After Jesus strongly criticized the Jewish leaders in the temple for their hypocrisy and greed, he then left the temple grounds and went to the Mount of Olives, signifying a symbolic departure from the corrupt religious practices of the time and a move towards a place of solitude and prayer, often seen as a prelude to his prediction about the destruction of the temple and the coming judgment on Jerusalem; this is primarily described in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 23-24.
The Wars of the Jews, 6.288
Flavius Josephus translated by William Whiston
« J. BJ 6.287 | J. BJ 6.288 | J. BJ 6.289 |
288 3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.
293 Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night.
300 and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for everyone to make tabernacles to God in the temple,
Fascinating how the Google AI came up with so many interesting facts, and truly to see that the Spirit of God rose up and left the temple and went to the mountain on the east just as Jesus also chastise the Jews and left the Temple and went to the mountain to the east of the Temple. In both cases it was prior to the destruction of the Temple and the sacking of the city of Jerusalem.
Lol, I don't really know how to get the AI to generate a paper, but it would be interesting to see all of this put together in a flowing format. My grammar skills only further confuse the matters. Glory to God and thank you Jesus
Being the guy who asked about dual/multiple fulfillment, I think you mischaracterized my point by using a false dichotomy (namely, if all prophecy is not fulfilled twice, none is). I am wondering if you might not have seen my response to your reply. So, I'll repost it here: "How long winded can I be? The short answer is, “What hasn’t happened yet”? My example was Jesus’ return. I think we need to be careful about insisting all that Zechariah prophesied was already fulfilled. While I agree with your concept of literal and directional fulfillment, I happen to believe that Immanuel was literally fulfilled, given the ancient eastern concept of a name being who and what you are. "Immanuel" = "God with us" was literally fulfilled. So, when we discover a prophecy that seems not to have been fulfilled literally yet, let’s not be quick to put it in the directional category and dismiss that it might have future literal fulfillment. Let’s learn from the Pharisees and Jewish rulers (who were dogmatically looking for a conquering King). Therefore, we should not be too dogmatic in our interpretation."
Here is an example of dual/multiple fulfillment. In 167 BC, Antiochus Epiphanes quite literally fulfilled the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. However, Jesus tells us 200 years later that the abomination of desolation is yet to come (Mt 24:15).
I am trying to keep an open mind and hang in there to see where you are going with this; and I appreciate your encouragement to keep our presuppositions at bay. However, that goes for your position of 70 AD complete fulfillment position as well.
One thing that confused me today was your equating Jesus' statement in Mt 24:27 with the siege of Jerusalem by Roman Army. Jesus was talking about the sign of "the coming of the Son of Man" not the coming of the Roman Army. I understand your point of the unmistakable nature of these two signs. However, I see two separate events being signaled. One of which, the coming of the Son of Man, I don't believe has occurred yet. What am I missing?
If you read Luke 21:20-21 it tells you who the “abomination of desolation” was. It is not future to us now.
Then read Matt 24:34 - that will give you your time constraint on Matt 24.
His coming on the clouds was in Ref to Daniel 7.
And the coming is also
In relation to judgment, as in the Old Testament such as Egypt or Babylon or
Others.
I take Matt 24 split at verse 35.
I don't think that is an example of dual fulfillment. Jesus is simply telling them that another abomination of desolation will happen and when they see it they should flee.
Scholars like Dr. Craig Keener have noted that there were several events that happened during that time period, before the destruction of the temple, that could've been labeled 'abomination of desolation' but the historian Josephus (not a christian by any means) believes that it happened in AD 66. This would've given the christians ample time to flee Jerusalem and Josephus, himself, states that not one christian was killed at the siege of Jerusalem (because they all saw the signs that Jesus prophesied and had fled.)
Here's an excerpt from Dr. Keener:
(Jesus) has already spoken of the temple being desolated (Matt. 23:38). Now he speaks of the promised “abomination,” or “desecration,” which brings about the “desolation” in the sanctuary (24:15). Josephus, the first-century Jewish historian who lived through the events that he describes, believes that the slaughter of the priests in the temple in 66 was the abomination which brought about the temple’s destruction three and a half years later, in A.D. 70. When the temple was destroyed, Romans set up images of Caesar, who was worshiped as a god, on the site. The year 70 was roughly a generation after Jesus warned of the coming desolation (somewhere around the year 30).
Jesus warned those in Judea to flee into the hills (24:16); the massive Roman army would be less effective hunting fugitives on mountain trails, and both David and the Maccabees had found refuge in this way. Because people often dried vegetables or conversed with neighbors on their flat roofs, reached from the outside of the house, Jesus also warns those on the roof not to waste time entering the house (24:17). Peasants who needed their outer garments as blankets at night, but left them at the edge of the field as the workday’s sun grew hot, should abandon them and flee with haste (24:18). Jesus’ point was that judgment was coming, and people should flee as quickly as possible! (My wife, who is Congolese and had to flee as a refugee when war came, understood the importance of such haste.)