There's some law about "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social problems it can remove also increases." Note that it doesn't say "solve". It says "remove".
Just realized... The Shadows were afraid of anything Vorlon touching their planet. I always thought it meant the ship. Nope. It was SHERIDAN. He brought KOSH.
Given what we learn about the Shadows and Vorlons this episode, I've always interpreted this line to be more ideological - that the Shadows are so deep into their political feud with the Vorlons that they are terrified that even the slightest exposure to Vorlon influence might corrupt them like a plague.
There's also a side effect that it means that the Shadows and Vorlons can never meet on their homeworld, further perpetuating distrust between them and therefore the conflict
@@autoduck Well, I don't know if JMS confirmed it, but the Lurker's Guide website did pretty heavily suggest it. That said, I do agree a certain Season 4 character does really... really fit.
@@7WhitePhoenix7 The man in the middle is not Justin. I'll just say, tick and tock, and someone who is in between, to say anymore would spoil something for season 4.
@keithcooper3507 I have to respectfully disagree. That doesn't track at all. Kosh's vision to Sheridan indicates Kosh knew this middle man was looking for him, and while Kosh knew of who-you're-alluding-to's whereabouts, Kosh was clearly disturbed at the prospect of what it would take to meet him. However, you have provoked a new thought. The one you allude to is not in between. If what you assert is true, then the one searching for Sheridan ... is Sheridan.
7:20 In early season 2 Sheridan's sister mentioned that he should change his door lock code! So evidently John never changes it, which is why Anna knew it.
You’re not the first person I’ve heard say that, but I can’t find obvious mention of it in the transcript for 2x2 (Revelations; the ep with his sister). Do you have a pointer/reference to where that’s stated?
Can you imagine what it felt like to wait a whole summer between this episode and finding out if Sheridan was dead for good or not. All I can say is that you cannot foresee what will happen next, trust me!!!
Biologists are conditioned by the Great Eye of the Shadows to be control units in Shadow tech. So Anna was basically the pilot of one of those shadow vessels. From extended lore, the command to fire the shadow vessel weapons is to scream. So Anna did not scream out of horror, she's like a retired Old West sheriff instinctively reaching for their gun to attack the threat, but the gun is no longer there.
Same. The wait was insane back then. This series was threading new ground back in the '90's and I still remember the shock when I saw this finale with my friends, the many days I couldn't get it out of my mind, and then the long wait for the next season. But man, the wait was worth it when season 4 finally did arrive. Watching this show for the first time on TV was amazing. To this day, the Shadows and Vorlons are still the coolest sci-fi races I've ever seen.
My watch order: 1. The Gathering (the pilot movie) 2. Seasons 1-4 3. Movie: In the Beginning 4. Movie: Thirdspace (technically this happens in the middle of season 4, but I don't think it slots in well and it was made after the fact). 5. Season 5, episodes 1-21 6. Movie: River of Souls 7. Season 5, episode 22. 8. Movie: A Call to Arms. 9. TV series: Crusade (although I've never actually watched all of it). 10. Pilot movie for rejected series: Legend of the Rangers (it's bad) 11. Two Stand-alone episodes: Lost Tales (if you feel like it, they're average) 12. Animated movie: The Road Home
Personal opinion.. crusade is a direct continuation of B5s over arching story line, ie earths story after the war! so although it isn't as good and has a completely different cast, I would suggest it is worth watching!
@@timbanks8331 I have it on DVD. I keep meaning to watch it. The last time I watched it was during the initial run on TNT, and I didn't exactly dislike it... but it felt like Diet Babylon 5 to me. I'll get to it someday.
Pretty good. I would watch Thirdspace between episodes 8 and 9 in Season 4, and In the Beginning as you placed it between Seasons 4 and 5. While River of Souls takes place before the series finale (season 5, episode 22), so does A Call to Arms and Crusade. I would finish the series (for the flow of what happens in 5:21 carrying into the finale), then do River of Souls and A Call to Arms (followed by the Crusade episodes).
@@stuartwald2395 that almost works except Franklin is in the movie and Zack has his new uniform. Zack receives his new uniform in episode 9 and Franklin takes a road trip in episode 9. So Thirdspace might take place mid-episode?
Dude.... settle down. I have to believe you have never been truly in love with someone. Ray is right, Sheridan's emotions are correct for this situation.
@@stevecollette6831 It's funny in the commentaries, when Sheridan starts yelling, Jerry Doyle makes a comment about it sounding a lot like the Boxleitner household does sometimes. Even Bruce laughed at that one as he agreed. Apparently, the little darling from "Little House on the Prairie" could hold her own against Bruce during their spirited disagreements.
Remember, It is Logical. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Also he is the one. Can't wait for them to get through the next few shows and the third age dawns. Can't say more for spoilers, if you know you know.
The damage Sheridan did to the Shadows was *nothing* like dropping the A-bomb on Nagasaki. The "Fat Man" bomb used in Nagasaki was tiny in comparison to the H-bombs that humanity later developed. The "Tsar Bomba" created by the Soviets was 3000 times more powerful, and the fictional bombs in this episode are implied to be far more powerful than that. Also Nagasaki is a small town in provincial Japan (I've been there, it's lovely, but it's not a big or significant city). So Sheridan has done something more like dropping the entire supply of nuclear bombs that exist in the world today on the capital city of his enemy.
This episode is amazing on a first watch and amazing on a rewatch too. We as viewers assume that the Shadows are the horrible bad guys and the Vorlons are the good guys. And so we trust everything the Vorlons have told us, and don't trust anything the Shadows try to tell us. On rewatches that isn't necessarily true anymore, so Anna's side of the story actually sounds kinda convincing, but just not convincing enough. I love this episode.
That's what's painful about it. What Delenn did was a violation of trust of the highest order. Under normal circumstances, this warrants a dissolution of the relationship, minimum. But, like Roosevelt allowing Pearl Harbor to happen, she had to act on the big picture, "for the greater good"**, even though there was always the risk of discovery and permanent damage to the relationship. **I hate using that phrase because it's so often misused by tyrants - yet I can find no better phrase that actually describes what happened here. It truly was _necessary._
@@kirishima638 FDR conspiracy nonsense. But there is an opinion that Churchill may have had information about the attack but did not share it so that the U.S.A. would join the World War II.
Remember what he said? "If that is not Anna, I'm going to take it out on someone." Anything else aside, they pissed him off royally. Sure he had other reasons and good reasons, and his other reasons aside, he gave them a chance to explain what they did. As unlikely as it was, there might have been a good explanation for what they did to his wife. Their answers to all his questions were... not satisfactory. As for us? Now we finally know what this is about. They had no reason to lie about that, because from their point of view either Sheridan fell in line, gets controlled or they destroy Babylon 5 and with that any hope of cooperation. But do we have all the answers? P.S. Of course he wouldn't have come back and say 'let's stop fighting the Shadows'. They would have spun it into something like 'we sat together, talked and disagreed' and then he would have sabotaged the Alliance from the inside. Or, they might have brought up some evidence and blamed the Centauri for everything, pulled back and let them fight it out. If their goal is really just to create conflict, a Sheridan on their side or under their control could do a lot for them.
That speech, from the old dude, was really important, to the whole plot and I'm surprised you didn't focus on it more. It's the great reveal of the episode. This is very much an ideological war. They're not after territory or resources, both sides are trying to help, in their own twisted way.
What I like is Morden isn’t faking. He’s being completely honest in his description of the anthill. The Shadows are highly evolved insects so their line of thinking would be harsh and would put the “big picture” ahead of the individual. That’s hive mentality. His genuine disgust over the Vorlon’s genetic meddling with younger races is a nice touch as well.
The crazy part about this whole episode is that at the time, Bruce Boxleitner was married to Melissa Gilbert (Anna Sheridan). A married couple playing a married couple on TV.
When John's sister visited she got in his room and she mentioned that he should change his lock code. Anna knew it and he was still using the code from before she left!
Also, even when B5 first aired, electronic security was a thing. It’s a fairly easy things to set the door to: 1. Open. 2. Closed but all access. 3. Closed but limited access. 4. Locked, key-code access only. “Bro” need to chill TF out and stop being angry about things he simply doesn’t understand.
What is interesting to me is that Ray always questions Sheridan's strategy and tactics. He always thinks that Sheridan is taking too big of risks. It is true that Sheridan takes big risks. But, time and time again, he wins. He has consistently shown the ability to outplay and outmaneuver opponents with large power advantages over him, either numerically or technologically or both. "Only one Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari..." Anyway, what I guess I am saying is Ray, I think you should trust Sheridan. When you are facing an opponent who holds all the advantages literally the only way you can win is to take big risks. Conservative tactics are losing tactics for the underdog.
Anna said the Shadows believed they would die if anything even remotely Vorlon touched Z'Ha'Dum. The White Star was partly based on Vorlon technology and it WELL AND TRULY "touched" Z'Ha'Dum!
Remember that Zha’dum was the most ancient world of the oldest of the ancient races. And it just got f’ed up…for the first time… ever. They have literally never been hit like this before. Even the Vorlons in the war a 1000 years ago never hit them there like this.
The “Irish” reason for Sheridan's trip to Zahadum. Kosh and Delenn hid from him that there was a stock of excellent whiskey there) according to Anna. He flew in and, uh. No booze, no girls, no snacks, and they ate them! And justin says, “you go get a beer, get a hangover!” It's a good thing we had two fusion nukes.
you need to remember previous episodes better. When Sheridan jumped forward in time to Centauri Prime, Emperor Mollari told Sheridan in War Without End Part 1 "when you drove off the Shadows" then in part 2 "17 years" so Sheridan nuking the Shadows won't lead them to attack their ally. Also remember that the Shadows don't have the numbers yet because they had to hide their ships like on Mars and Ganymede. Delenn mentioned when telling Sheridan about the Shadows that 1000 years ago the Shadows returned to their places of power and struck out but were defeated by an alliance including the last of the first ones (Vorlons among them) driving them away so they are moving slowly to gather their forces. Z'ha'dum is their homeworld and Sheridan just created a new crater in their planet. That is going to make them pause and change their strategy. If they had the power to just destroy everyone they would not have tried to recruit Sheridan in the first place.
Aboutthe vorlons: we've already seen a Vorlon fleet engaging the Shadows, andthey don't use drones. Every ship is tailored to a pilot, and it dives into a star when the master dies. Those ships were piloted, and by Vorlons.
Id say the Vorlons use alot of automation, personally... I mean if you can make semi-sentient organic ships then you can give then enough smarts to fly and engage in combat without a pilot. I mean Shadow Vessels are run by a single integrated biologic component (ie the person melded with them), and the ships own 'mind'... id doubt the Vorlons dont have at least something on a similar level.
Interesting to note the older man's reaction to John asking him the question "Who are you?". It makes him uncomfortable. It is also interesting to note the supposed Shadow ideology of chaos and conflict vs the Vorlon's ideology of obedience and control.....and yet, Justin and the Shadows tell Sheridan to obey them and want him under their control...or else. Kind of hypercritical, showing they are flawed. As to whether or not Sheridan struck a big blow to them...This was Z'ha'dum, it holds historical and almost religious significance to the Shadows. He took out their capital, their HQ, and the opposing general. He took them by surprise. He martyred himself, which is what they didn't want. He completely knocked them off track in their plans, and now they have to scramble to restore order. That's a pretty big hit they didn't expect. They could have destroyed Babylon 5, and were prepared to, but they retreated instead. Probably a huge mistake on their part.
Eggs, milk, bread,....nukes. she wasn't trying to cut off his exit. They went down in the shuttle. Justin, the man in the middle looking for Sheridan. Nuking the city was like Luke blowing up the Death Star. The empire was still huge. The Shadows are still powerful. No different than Pearl Harbor. We lost some resources, but no way were we out
I feel it is more like smiting Washington than Pearl Harbour. They seem to place a large significance on Za'hadum. So it might be one of their main outposts/homeworld. So they might still be large and powerful, but a think it might impact their leadership a little.
@@sociallyferal4237 Yes. DC was another example I also thought about, but went with Pearl because it has happened, and it was HQ for the entire Pacific fleet, but point taken either way.
@@tvdroid22 I can see it as a Pearl Harbour based on fleet HQ. I suppose it really depends on if you think of Zha'hadum as the Military headquarters or a governmental one.
Hearing these theories and knowing what's coming is amusing, but also scary how far off and how spot on you guys are. As the Mimbari say "Faith manages"
I got bored and looked up some numbers. I found an online simulator, but it only goes up to 100 megatons. At those levels, a surface explosion creates a crater with a radius of almost 1km, (about 25km²) and a fireball with a radius of 8.8km (~240km²). Assuming linear scaling to 1000Mt, we’d get a crater which is 250km² and a fireball over 24,000km² (about the area of Vermont). Note: “fireball” means “you’re probably vaporized”.
Ok, actual math. I ran a log(10) series from 1-100000. Looks like for every order of magnitude, the fireball radius increases by 2.5x. Given that, a 1000 Mt blast means a 22km radius, or an area of ~1500km² , which is about the size of Oklahoma City and a bit less than Houston. The multiplier for crater info look to be 2.15, so a 1000 Mt yield nets is a crater about 1km deep with a diameter of about 4km. I tried linking to the page I’m using, but my comment gets (ahem) nuked if I do.
One other note: there’s also the blast radius which is significantly larger than the fireball radius. A 1000Mt yield would mean about a 60km 5psi overpressure blast radius, which the site states would level most residential human buildings.
Detonating it underground also causes all of the pressure from the blast to go into their underground city, instead of a bunch of that energy going up into the air. The rocks would be able to absorb a lot of it, but the amount of pressure inside that area would be much higher and for longer than if it could escape in all directions.
True, although I’d imagine a good amount of the blast energy would escape through the hole in the dome rather than being forcibly contained within the city. Being neither a mathematician nor a physicist, I can’t even begin to imagine how to do that calculation, tho. :)
I love watching the argument at the end, just because, everyone is so close to being right, In fact everyone IS right, partially, yet none of them are actually correct. And that's despite all the clues having been dropped ahead of time (and no, this isn't me being superior, I didn't draw any of the correct conclusions the first time I watched the series, either). The surprises that are still to come, man. So much good stuff. Babylon 5 is the best television show of all time.
The destruction of Z' ha' dum destroyed the Primary Command & Control for the Shadow's. Disrupting a coordinated effort from them. Yes...they still have ships, but it takes a while to rebuild the Command structure so that coordinated operations are effective.
If you guys decide to start watching the B5 movies, I'm pretty sure they're all after the series is done (finish S5) except for the Minbari war prequel but that will spoil some small revelations throughout the main series.
Thirdspace between ep 8 and 9 in season 4, In the beginning movie after season 4. River of souls after season 5 episode 21. Technically season 5 episode 22 after everything else.
The White Star should have detonated above ground allowing the shockwave to spread out Flying into a hole that looked very deep would actually minimize the damage caused by the Nuke.
No offense guys, but your prediction process is causing you all to not appreciate some of the best episodes of the whole B5 series, or at least to not appreciate them enough. Honestly, the predictions are keeping you from experiencing the series the way we watched it at the beginning. There was no way to binge the series back then. You spent a full week between episodes and whole summers in between the seasons. If you considered backing off on the predictions and theories, you might be more inclined to see the brilliance of JMS’s screenplay writing and the epic story that is B5. I suspect you all will get more out of B5 the second time around several years down the line from now. I’m worried you will eventually be disappointed because of the wild theories and extreme imagination you all employ in order to try to guess JMS’s story falling short of where he actually pilots the series. JMS found out part way through season 4 that he might be forced to finish the series at the end of season 4, but that it was still possible that he would be able to complete the full 5 seasons as well! Can you imagine trying to both finish off a series in the 4th season and also prepare for another uncertain season? This would totally require you to revise ideas you had at the beginning. Just like JMS had to revise everything once he lost the actor who played Sinclair after season one. There was originally not even a Sheridan planned for the series! The B5 effort in amazing and it was a near miracle that we even have it as we do and the very high level of excellence that it brings to us. You all should avoid to the urge to figure everything out and predict everything in the series, it will ruin your final experience. You only get to the experience things first only one time. Sincerely yours,
This was is about The Shadows and Vorlons' converting people/aliens to their way of thinking and both their goals are the same but use different methods. They are two sides of the same coin. But the Shadows are written to be the bad guys And The Vorlons' the good guys. But the Shadows don't trick people into thinking they're gods by changing how people perceive them In that sense the Shadows and Vorlons' are BOTH influencing the younger races instead of letting them evolve naturally without interference. Guess they don't have a 'Prime Directive' like trek.
🔔 R KNIGHTS: 🔔 FYI THERE WAS A PROPOSED TV SERIES COMBINING THE B5 & BSG UNIVERSES. 🔔 BUT FOR SOME REASON IT NEVER GOT OFF THE GROUND. 🔔 TITLE? 🔔 "BABBLESTAR GALACTICA" 😀
Regarding the movies, they tend to be interesting stories set in the B5 universe but don’t really deal with the main arc of the series except for one of them, In the Beginning. I recommend you watch ITB immediately before the final episode of season 5, it fits nicely there. As for the others, some happen within in the B5 story chronology, some after, whether you want to take an excursion away from the main arc to watch some is a matter of personal preference.
The clever thing about Babylon 5, we always thought the Shadows were the bad guys and the Vorlorns the good guys but actually they were both well intentioned.
There are ██ 3 models of -Cylons- Vorlorns/Shadows😄It's simple... there's “shadow Vorlons” who are considered conventionally good and conventionally bad, and then there's the Brainless Vorlons, the Na'ka'lims.😂🤣
Anna disappeared long before John game to B5 and got any code. Until now they didn't have any contact. My theory is that Anna showed B5 officer that she is John's wife, and got door code.
I watched the series when it first ran. I was on edge all Summer, fearful the show would be canceled. FYI guys, in a few episodes you should be watching Babylon 5 Third Space, it's where the movie fits in the timeline.
Nothing says "I want a divorce" more conclusively than dropping 1000 megatons nuke on the ex-partner! When Justin says that if someone is pulled out of a Shadow ship that they're never quite whole again and starts breaking down, I have to wonder if Justin was *also* in a Shadow ship prior to this (or someone he knows is/was in a ship)
Justin's reactions seem quite human. I don't find the point of shoving the coordinator-analyst into the Shadow Wessel first and then pulling him back out. Why?
Here is what you need to consider about the shadow. The only reason, Sheridan was able to do what he did, was that the shadow let his ship get close to z'ha'dum. Their forces are spread out across the entire galaxy, some of them hidden for a 1000 years. Did nuking that city hurt them? Sure. But if you take away one thing from world war 2 is that bombing civilian populations is not particularly effective at reducing a states capacity to make war.
🔔 R KNIGHTS @ 7:50 🔔 THE REASON THEY DON'T HAVE LOCKED DOORS ISN'T UNIQUE TO B5. 🔔 OTHER EXAMPLES INCLUDE SUCH SHOWS AS "THE BIG BANG THEORY". 🔔 BOTTOM LINE: IT'S SIMPLY A DEVICE TO AVOID ANSWERING THE DOOR. PERIOD.
I don't think this is good vs. evil - it's order vs chaos. Are the Vorlons better than the Shadows? They programmed all the younger races to perceive them as divine beings.
Thirdspace happens in the middle of season 4 but the movies are not critical viewing. You can wait until you're done with the series no problem. And make the animated film the very last thing you watch, totally worth it.
In the Beginning should absolutely be watched between season 4 and 5. I agree the others can be delayed until after the series ends, but I see no reason why they shouldn't watch the other movies in chronological order during (and in some cases after) the run of B5.
@@fakecubed good point. In the Beginning can be watched between 4 and 5. I was just saying it's not "critical" watching. Personally, I think In the Beginning is the best one, with Thirdspace a close second. But only because they didn't show more of Ivanova with those alien tentacles :)
This episode has a deep philosophical problem: it's 9/11 represented some five years before the actual events, with Sheridan as Al-Qaeda. A guerrilla movement striking at the heart of a technologicaly and militarily superior enemy with a vehicular suicide run. What can I say?
No, this analogy doesn't work - it's not that easy. Sheridan hit an important HQ-like spot of the shadows and he knew that he would meet (and therefore take out with his nukes) some important representatives of the shadows there. He used military grade destruction and didn't kill just some random civilians.
There are solid arguments for season 4 being the best, and true or not you're still in for an awesome ride. As far as Ray being worried about the Shadows responding... at this point you could say he's a bit right but mostly wrong. One huge story plot dropped in this episode is the Shadows motivations. Ray's thinking "war" as in conquest or wiping out, but the Shadows aren't fighting a war. The Shadows come out and stir the pot every 1,000 or 10,000 years to "force" the younger races to evolve and improve. Some races do get wiped out in the process, but that's not the Shadows real goal. In some ways they are right, history has shown many of a society's greatest advancements come out of facing hardship, war being a major one. A Shadow ships lost cost material, but they are essential Drones, no actual Shadow lives lost. I personally believe the Shadow ships are "dumbed" down so to speak, as to allow or the younger races to be able to eventually eek out some wins. Kind of a reward for getting your act together and making a plan resulting in victory. That all said, B5 is pissing in the Shadows yard by bringing order to the chaos, and Sheridan actually killing Shadows... well that could drive them to respond harshly. On the other hand a group that more or less believes in survival of the fittest or might makes right may not get as mad either. Time and season 4 will tell.
Akin to the United States launching an attack on Japan via the USS Hornet and James Doolittle's Raid of B-25 bombers, the US hit a seemingly invincible Japan not to do any major damage, but to shock the people and the military of Japan. This shock factor arrested their belief in their invincibility which led to pressure on Yammamoto to speed up the operation to take Midway Island. Had the Doolittle Raid never occurred, the Japanese would have conserved their carrier forces and slowly steamrolled the rest of the US Navy before consolidating gains and reinforcing bases. However, with the spell of invincibility broken, it changed the game and allowed the US to launch its invasion of Guadalcanal in August of 1942 - a mere 4 months after the Doolittle Raid and only 2 months after the Battle of Midway. That last battle was the turning point of the war in the Pacific as a rushed Japan fell prey to its belief that its military codes were not breakable. The US broke its code and was able to have enough carriers there waiting for the Japanese forces. By hitting the Shadows at their home planet - which had never previously been attacked due to its impressive defense systems - it stopped them in their tracks. Suddenly the younger races had banned together and hit their capital. The ploy to gain Sheridan or kill him had failed. No one counted on a Vorlon to be present inside of Sheridan nor did they count on Sheridan (and Franklin) discovering the implants on Anna. So, here we go! Hold onto your butts, kids, it's about to get WILD!
The movie order should be "In the Beginning", "Thirdspace", "The River of Souls", "A Call to Arms", "The Legend of the Rangers" and "The Road Home", You should be able to watch "In the Beginning" now, this focuses on the Earth Minbari war and serves as worldbuilding for almost all the main characters in B5. Though it might be best to wait until after S04E09, since "In the Beginning" builds from that episode quite a bit and might be confusing without watching it first. "Thirdspace" should be watched sometime after S04E08. The remainder should be watched once you finish season 5.
Sheridan bombed and took out the shadows capital city, this has thrown the Shadows in chaos and mourning, since alot of shadows would have died, probably some leadership. This is a major blow to the shadows, they haven't lost any of their military strength. This has propted a pause in the war, the alliance is not strong enough to opening take on the Shadow's fleets they will lose in the end in open war, they can't carry on taking 2 to 1 loses. Remember how the Vorlons reacted when Kosh died, just imagine how the Shadows are feeling after many of them where killed and by a human.
That's why I love Babylon 5) for God on the side of the big battalions))))) Stop with the Flagships, the super weapons. Things are so much more interesting!
Current nukes are fusion bombs. They use an old-fashioned fission device (Hiroshima bomb) to kick-start the fusion reaction. There are videos on UA-cam describing how this works.
And with this episode, did the message from the future about B5s destruction come from a Shadow fleet that was stronger from the last war, because they didn´t get B4 to win...or just because in the world without his time travel he didn´t go to Z`ha`dum and the Shadows did take out his base?
This is why he is called John NUKE'm Sheridan
There's some law about "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social problems it can remove also increases."
Note that it doesn't say "solve". It says "remove".
@@matthewteague623 Well it works on the Black Star and Shadow Cities. When John’s back is against a wall, hide the nukes.
Boom!
@@alexshdvideo no Boom today, alway Boom Tomorrow
Nukes are the LotR Eagles of Babylon 5.
G'Kar's monologue at the end of the episode is one of the best monologues in TV ever. Andreas' voice and delivery lends so much weight to it.
What you’re overlooking is he WANTS that to be his Anna.
You have NO IDEA what it was like waiting several months for season four to begin!!!
Just realized... The Shadows were afraid of anything Vorlon touching their planet. I always thought it meant the ship. Nope. It was SHERIDAN. He brought KOSH.
Given what we learn about the Shadows and Vorlons this episode, I've always interpreted this line to be more ideological - that the Shadows are so deep into their political feud with the Vorlons that they are terrified that even the slightest exposure to Vorlon influence might corrupt them like a plague.
There's also a side effect that it means that the Shadows and Vorlons can never meet on their homeworld, further perpetuating distrust between them and therefore the conflict
There's also the fact that as long as the Shadows are on Z'Ha'Dum, the Vorlons don't have access to something.
Remember the line from the dream? "The man in between is searching for you". Justin described himself as a go-between...
Justin did indeed described him as that but hes not the one that Kosh was referring to.
@@autoduck Well, I don't know if JMS confirmed it, but the Lurker's Guide website did pretty heavily suggest it.
That said, I do agree a certain Season 4 character does really... really fit.
@@autoduckYeah, I've never known it to refer to anyone other than Justin. Maybe Anna, but there's too many inconsistencies.
@@7WhitePhoenix7 The man in the middle is not Justin. I'll just say, tick and tock, and someone who is in between, to say anymore would spoil something for season 4.
@keithcooper3507 I have to respectfully disagree. That doesn't track at all. Kosh's vision to Sheridan indicates Kosh knew this middle man was looking for him, and while Kosh knew of who-you're-alluding-to's whereabouts, Kosh was clearly disturbed at the prospect of what it would take to meet him. However, you have provoked a new thought. The one you allude to is not in between. If what you assert is true, then the one searching for Sheridan ... is Sheridan.
That monologue at the end from G’Kar…damn!
7:20 In early season 2 Sheridan's sister mentioned that he should change his door lock code! So evidently John never changes it, which is why Anna knew it.
You’re not the first person I’ve heard say that, but I can’t find obvious mention of it in the transcript for 2x2 (Revelations; the ep with his sister). Do you have a pointer/reference to where that’s stated?
@@noahrobin1941 I might be misremembering and it could have been Susan who said it in a different episode. I will check.
@@RetroRobotRadio Morden had a tool to break open locked doors,, it's how they got to Kosh to kill him.
@@RetroRobotRadio Wasn't that Ivanova in Divided Loyalties?
@@RuneJacobsen that sounds right.
Can you imagine what it felt like to wait a whole summer between this episode and finding out if Sheridan was dead for good or not.
All I can say is that you cannot foresee what will happen next, trust me!!!
Melissa Gilbert who plays Anna here was actually married to Bruce Boxleitner when they filmed this. They were married from 1995-2011
The wedding photo was from their actual wedding.
And it was a recasting. Season 2 had a different actress in the video message Sheridan's sister showed him.
@@Jacana2k6true but Im glad they have his real wife. It hits harder. 🖖
Biologists are conditioned by the Great Eye of the Shadows to be control units in Shadow tech. So Anna was basically the pilot of one of those shadow vessels. From extended lore, the command to fire the shadow vessel weapons is to scream. So Anna did not scream out of horror, she's like a retired Old West sheriff instinctively reaching for their gun to attack the threat, but the gun is no longer there.
Very valuable observation, thanks!
The cliffhanger of cliffhangers. We were stunned. 100/10 episode. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Jumping of a cliff as a cliffhanger.
I had to wait a year between this ep and the start of s4, our main question was "Whatever happened to Mr Garibaldi?" that bit was random af.
Same. The wait was insane back then. This series was threading new ground back in the '90's and I still remember the shock when I saw this finale with my friends, the many days I couldn't get it out of my mind, and then the long wait for the next season. But man, the wait was worth it when season 4 finally did arrive. Watching this show for the first time on TV was amazing.
To this day, the Shadows and Vorlons are still the coolest sci-fi races I've ever seen.
Take a shot everytime Michael is wrong. You'll be dead halfway through an episode.
My watch order:
1. The Gathering (the pilot movie)
2. Seasons 1-4
3. Movie: In the Beginning
4. Movie: Thirdspace (technically this happens in the middle of season 4, but I don't think it slots in well and it was made after the fact).
5. Season 5, episodes 1-21
6. Movie: River of Souls
7. Season 5, episode 22.
8. Movie: A Call to Arms.
9. TV series: Crusade (although I've never actually watched all of it).
10. Pilot movie for rejected series: Legend of the Rangers (it's bad)
11. Two Stand-alone episodes: Lost Tales (if you feel like it, they're average)
12. Animated movie: The Road Home
Thank you for that
Personal opinion.. crusade is a direct continuation of B5s over arching story line, ie earths story after the war! so although it isn't as good and has a completely different cast, I would suggest it is worth watching!
@@timbanks8331 I have it on DVD. I keep meaning to watch it. The last time I watched it was during the initial run on TNT, and I didn't exactly dislike it... but it felt like Diet Babylon 5 to me. I'll get to it someday.
Pretty good. I would watch Thirdspace between episodes 8 and 9 in Season 4, and In the Beginning as you placed it between Seasons 4 and 5. While River of Souls takes place before the series finale (season 5, episode 22), so does A Call to Arms and Crusade. I would finish the series (for the flow of what happens in 5:21 carrying into the finale), then do River of Souls and A Call to Arms (followed by the Crusade episodes).
@@stuartwald2395 that almost works except Franklin is in the movie and Zack has his new uniform. Zack receives his new uniform in episode 9 and Franklin takes a road trip in episode 9. So Thirdspace might take place mid-episode?
Dude.... settle down. I have to believe you have never been truly in love with someone. Ray is right, Sheridan's emotions are correct for this situation.
@@stevecollette6831 It's funny in the commentaries, when Sheridan starts yelling, Jerry Doyle makes a comment about it sounding a lot like the Boxleitner household does sometimes. Even Bruce laughed at that one as he agreed. Apparently, the little darling from "Little House on the Prairie" could hold her own against Bruce during their spirited disagreements.
As a note, this episode was directed by Adam Nimoy. The son of Leonard Nimoy, the original Spock.
The only Spock.
@@fakecubed It's only logical.
Remember, It is Logical. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Also he is the one. Can't wait for them to get through the next few shows and the third age dawns. Can't say more for spoilers, if you know you know.
The damage Sheridan did to the Shadows was *nothing* like dropping the A-bomb on Nagasaki. The "Fat Man" bomb used in Nagasaki was tiny in comparison to the H-bombs that humanity later developed. The "Tsar Bomba" created by the Soviets was 3000 times more powerful, and the fictional bombs in this episode are implied to be far more powerful than that. Also Nagasaki is a small town in provincial Japan (I've been there, it's lovely, but it's not a big or significant city). So Sheridan has done something more like dropping the entire supply of nuclear bombs that exist in the world today on the capital city of his enemy.
This episode is amazing on a first watch and amazing on a rewatch too. We as viewers assume that the Shadows are the horrible bad guys and the Vorlons are the good guys. And so we trust everything the Vorlons have told us, and don't trust anything the Shadows try to tell us. On rewatches that isn't necessarily true anymore, so Anna's side of the story actually sounds kinda convincing, but just not convincing enough. I love this episode.
John gave the shadows a taste of their own medicine, he knocked over their biggest anthill.
The guy on the left needs to drop his volume! Geez! He acts like a teenager
Watching you guy argue about how hard the shadow's were hit is so funny. 🤐
What I love with B5 is that it isnt good vs evil, its Law vs Chaos - a struggle of philosophies.
...and Sheridan's dead.
Delenn was right though, he would have immediately raced to Z'ha'dum if he had found out earlier and he would have screwed up everything.
That's what's painful about it.
What Delenn did was a violation of trust of the highest order. Under normal circumstances, this warrants a dissolution of the relationship, minimum.
But, like Roosevelt allowing Pearl Harbor to happen, she had to act on the big picture, "for the greater good"**, even though there was always the risk of discovery and permanent damage to the relationship.
**I hate using that phrase because it's so often misused by tyrants - yet I can find no better phrase that actually describes what happened here. It truly was _necessary._
@@TechnoMageB5Roosevelt let pearl harbour happen?
@@kirishima638 FDR conspiracy nonsense. But there is an opinion that Churchill may have had information about the attack but did not share it so that the U.S.A. would join the World War II.
@@kirishima638 Just let it go. You can never convince them once they cross that Rubicon.
Tick, tock. Tick.
I see what you are doing here >:-D
Always running out of time...
@@unformedeight What u choose Tick or Tock.
@@6totoro6 I'm here so Tick
Yes but... Who are you?
Ans no one mentions or shows the bit where Garibaldi goes missing. Oh you have no idea... hehehe.
Remember what he said? "If that is not Anna, I'm going to take it out on someone."
Anything else aside, they pissed him off royally. Sure he had other reasons and good reasons, and his other reasons aside, he gave them a chance to explain what they did. As unlikely as it was, there might have been a good explanation for what they did to his wife.
Their answers to all his questions were... not satisfactory.
As for us? Now we finally know what this is about. They had no reason to lie about that, because from their point of view either Sheridan fell in line, gets controlled or they destroy Babylon 5 and with that any hope of cooperation.
But do we have all the answers?
P.S. Of course he wouldn't have come back and say 'let's stop fighting the Shadows'. They would have spun it into something like 'we sat together, talked and disagreed' and then he would have sabotaged the Alliance from the inside. Or, they might have brought up some evidence and blamed the Centauri for everything, pulled back and let them fight it out. If their goal is really just to create conflict, a Sheridan on their side or under their control could do a lot for them.
That speech, from the old dude, was really important, to the whole plot and I'm surprised you didn't focus on it more. It's the great reveal of the episode. This is very much an ideological war. They're not after territory or resources, both sides are trying to help, in their own twisted way.
What I like is Morden isn’t faking. He’s being completely honest in his description of the anthill. The Shadows are highly evolved insects so their line of thinking would be harsh and would put the “big picture” ahead of the individual. That’s hive mentality. His genuine disgust over the Vorlon’s genetic meddling with younger races is a nice touch as well.
I think about the speech all the time.
It would have been fun to see the reaction to this platinum series idea. But, alas, no wow effect. Maybe it's because of over-viewing.
The crazy part about this whole episode is that at the time, Bruce Boxleitner was married to Melissa Gilbert (Anna Sheridan). A married couple playing a married couple on TV.
When Kosh says "Jump Now!", I jump. Dwayne.... not so much.
Homeboy needs to relax. He jumped the gun so hard getting pissed. Sheridan IS smarter than that.
Yep, he's getting very irritating and letting down a great panel of reacters.
yeah.... that flip out almost made me stop watching
2nd vid in a row like this lol
Same, dude needs to lower his mammary calamity.
Having his identity stolen just set him off for the rest of the reaction. ;)
The lock on the door is a bit daft, but it was established that Morden picked his way into kosh’s quarters - she has the same tech.
When John's sister visited she got in his room and she mentioned that he should change his lock code. Anna knew it and he was still using the code from before she left!
Oh yeah !
Ivanova did it too
Also, even when B5 first aired, electronic security was a thing. It’s a fairly easy things to set the door to: 1. Open. 2. Closed but all access. 3. Closed but limited access. 4. Locked, key-code access only.
“Bro” need to chill TF out and stop being angry about things he simply doesn’t understand.
"and stop yelling at me" 😂♥️
What is interesting to me is that Ray always questions Sheridan's strategy and tactics. He always thinks that Sheridan is taking too big of risks. It is true that Sheridan takes big risks. But, time and time again, he wins. He has consistently shown the ability to outplay and outmaneuver opponents with large power advantages over him, either numerically or technologically or both. "Only one Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari..." Anyway, what I guess I am saying is Ray, I think you should trust Sheridan. When you are facing an opponent who holds all the advantages literally the only way you can win is to take big risks. Conservative tactics are losing tactics for the underdog.
Anna said the Shadows believed they would die if anything even remotely Vorlon touched Z'Ha'Dum. The White Star was partly based on Vorlon technology and it WELL AND TRULY "touched" Z'Ha'Dum!
Anna was in a shadow vessel. They're modified to interface with any tech - like the Csptains door.
Remember that Zha’dum was the most ancient world of the oldest of the ancient races. And it just got f’ed up…for the first time… ever. They have literally never been hit like this before. Even the Vorlons in the war a 1000 years ago never hit them there like this.
The “Irish” reason for Sheridan's trip to Zahadum. Kosh and Delenn hid from him that there was a stock of excellent whiskey there) according to Anna. He flew in and, uh. No booze, no girls, no snacks, and they ate them! And justin says, “you go get a beer, get a hangover!” It's a good thing we had two fusion nukes.
Without giving anything away, you don't put all of your eggs in the one basket.
Imagine an anthill attacked you. No matter how much damage it did, it would shock you.
you need to remember previous episodes better. When Sheridan jumped forward in time to Centauri Prime, Emperor Mollari told Sheridan in War Without End Part 1 "when you drove off the Shadows" then in part 2 "17 years" so Sheridan nuking the Shadows won't lead them to attack their ally.
Also remember that the Shadows don't have the numbers yet because they had to hide their ships like on Mars and Ganymede. Delenn mentioned when telling Sheridan about the Shadows that 1000 years ago the Shadows returned to their places of power and struck out but were defeated by an alliance including the last of the first ones (Vorlons among them) driving them away so they are moving slowly to gather their forces. Z'ha'dum is their homeworld and Sheridan just created a new crater in their planet. That is going to make them pause and change their strategy. If they had the power to just destroy everyone they would not have tried to recruit Sheridan in the first place.
What you said at the end isnt true, but can't be discussed without S4 spoilers.
Aboutthe vorlons: we've already seen a Vorlon fleet engaging the Shadows, andthey don't use drones. Every ship is tailored to a pilot, and it dives into a star when the master dies.
Those ships were piloted, and by Vorlons.
Id say the Vorlons use alot of automation, personally... I mean if you can make semi-sentient organic ships then you can give then enough smarts to fly and engage in combat without a pilot. I mean Shadow Vessels are run by a single integrated biologic component (ie the person melded with them), and the ships own 'mind'... id doubt the Vorlons dont have at least something on a similar level.
@@NZBigfoot no spoilers but no. Vorlons is a Symbiotic relationship. Shadows kill the host for a ship to work. Vorlons are behind the shadows in Tech.
Sheridan's little walk to Zahadum - BOOM! 👍💥☠️
When you check the video timeline and the discussion section is longer than the show section...
YOU KNOW the discussion is going to be dynomite! 💥
The Shadows ,at this point,have taken a Major hit ...but,they ain't done yet ...Get Ready for Season 4 ,gentlemen....
My man had his identity stolen and spent the first half of the reaction raging. Don't ever truly piss him off or he'll nuke the whole channel.
Interesting to note the older man's reaction to John asking him the question "Who are you?". It makes him uncomfortable.
It is also interesting to note the supposed Shadow ideology of chaos and conflict vs the Vorlon's ideology of obedience and control.....and yet, Justin and the Shadows tell Sheridan to obey them and want him under their control...or else. Kind of hypercritical, showing they are flawed.
As to whether or not Sheridan struck a big blow to them...This was Z'ha'dum, it holds historical and almost religious significance to the Shadows. He took out their capital, their HQ, and the opposing general. He took them by surprise. He martyred himself, which is what they didn't want. He completely knocked them off track in their plans, and now they have to scramble to restore order.
That's a pretty big hit they didn't expect.
They could have destroyed Babylon 5, and were prepared to, but they retreated instead. Probably a huge mistake on their part.
Remember Sebastian looking for a man willing to die for all the wrong reasons?
Eggs, milk, bread,....nukes. she wasn't trying to cut off his exit. They went down in the shuttle. Justin, the man in the middle looking for Sheridan. Nuking the city was like Luke blowing up the Death Star. The empire was still huge. The Shadows are still powerful. No different than Pearl Harbor. We lost some resources, but no way were we out
I feel it is more like smiting Washington than Pearl Harbour. They seem to place a large significance on Za'hadum. So it might be one of their main outposts/homeworld. So they might still be large and powerful, but a think it might impact their leadership a little.
@@sociallyferal4237 Yes. DC was another example I also thought about, but went with Pearl because it has happened, and it was HQ for the entire Pacific fleet, but point taken either way.
@@tvdroid22 I can see it as a Pearl Harbour based on fleet HQ. I suppose it really depends on if you think of Zha'hadum as the Military headquarters or a governmental one.
Hearing these theories and knowing what's coming is amusing, but also scary how far off and how spot on you guys are. As the Mimbari say "Faith manages"
AWESOME episode sooo cool Guys great reactions i wish the actual episode was longer for us here on Ytube
I got bored and looked up some numbers. I found an online simulator, but it only goes up to 100 megatons. At those levels, a surface explosion creates a crater with a radius of almost 1km, (about 25km²) and a fireball with a radius of 8.8km (~240km²). Assuming linear scaling to 1000Mt, we’d get a crater which is 250km² and a fireball over 24,000km² (about the area of Vermont). Note: “fireball” means “you’re probably vaporized”.
A better method might be comparing a 1 MT, a 10 MT, and a 100 MT, then using that data to extrapolate to 1000 MT.
Ok, actual math. I ran a log(10) series from 1-100000. Looks like for every order of magnitude, the fireball radius increases by 2.5x. Given that, a 1000 Mt blast means a 22km radius, or an area of ~1500km² , which is about the size of Oklahoma City and a bit less than Houston. The multiplier for crater info look to be 2.15, so a 1000 Mt yield nets is a crater about 1km deep with a diameter of about 4km. I tried linking to the page I’m using, but my comment gets (ahem) nuked if I do.
One other note: there’s also the blast radius which is significantly larger than the fireball radius. A 1000Mt yield would mean about a 60km 5psi overpressure blast radius, which the site states would level most residential human buildings.
Detonating it underground also causes all of the pressure from the blast to go into their underground city, instead of a bunch of that energy going up into the air. The rocks would be able to absorb a lot of it, but the amount of pressure inside that area would be much higher and for longer than if it could escape in all directions.
True, although I’d imagine a good amount of the blast energy would escape through the hole in the dome rather than being forcibly contained within the city. Being neither a mathematician nor a physicist, I can’t even begin to imagine how to do that calculation, tho. :)
This is my all time favorite episode.
I love watching the argument at the end, just because, everyone is so close to being right, In fact everyone IS right, partially, yet none of them are actually correct. And that's despite all the clues having been dropped ahead of time (and no, this isn't me being superior, I didn't draw any of the correct conclusions the first time I watched the series, either). The surprises that are still to come, man. So much good stuff. Babylon 5 is the best television show of all time.
I wanted to tell you guys are doing a fantastic job. Your reactions are great and I never miss the live show on UA-cam. Take care until next time.👍
Thanks so much!!
The destruction of Z' ha' dum destroyed the Primary Command & Control for the Shadow's. Disrupting a coordinated effort from them. Yes...they still have ships, but it takes a while to rebuild the Command structure so that coordinated operations are effective.
Masked, it blew up the Shadow Pentagon with 35% of the personnel who were there at the time. Well, that's “critical” damage.
All I'll say is "you are not ready..."
If you guys decide to start watching the B5 movies, I'm pretty sure they're all after the series is done (finish S5) except for the Minbari war prequel but that will spoil some small revelations throughout the main series.
The end of season 3 sets the bar really high. Fortunately, season 4 manages to top even that. Season 4 is the best year of the show IMO.
Thirdspace between ep 8 and 9 in season 4, In the beginning movie after season 4. River of souls after season 5 episode 21.
Technically season 5 episode 22 after everything else.
The White Star should have detonated above ground allowing the shockwave to spread out
Flying into a hole that looked very deep would actually minimize the damage caused by the Nuke.
That would be true normally but the city was underground.
No offense guys, but your prediction process is causing you all to not appreciate some of the best episodes of the whole B5 series, or at least to not appreciate them enough. Honestly, the predictions are keeping you from experiencing the series the way we watched it at the beginning. There was no way to binge the series back then. You spent a full week between episodes and whole summers in between the seasons. If you considered backing off on the predictions and theories, you might be more inclined to see the brilliance of JMS’s screenplay writing and the epic story that is B5. I suspect you all will get more out of B5 the second time around several years down the line from now. I’m worried you will eventually be disappointed because of the wild theories and extreme imagination you all employ in order to try to guess JMS’s story falling short of where he actually pilots the series.
JMS found out part way through season 4 that he might be forced to finish the series at the end of season 4, but that it was still possible that he would be able to complete the full 5 seasons as well! Can you imagine trying to both finish off a series in the 4th season and also prepare for another uncertain season? This would totally require you to revise ideas you had at the beginning. Just like JMS had to revise everything once he lost the actor who played Sinclair after season one. There was originally not even a Sheridan planned for the series!
The B5 effort in amazing and it was a near miracle that we even have it as we do and the very high level of excellence that it brings to us.
You all should avoid to the urge to figure everything out and predict everything in the series, it will ruin your final experience. You only get to the experience things first only one time.
Sincerely yours,
Notice that seasons two and three both ended with Sheridan jumping from a great height?
This was is about The Shadows and Vorlons' converting people/aliens to their way of thinking and both their goals are the same but use different methods.
They are two sides of the same coin.
But the Shadows are written to be the bad guys
And The Vorlons' the good guys. But the Shadows don't trick people into thinking they're gods by changing how people perceive them
In that sense the Shadows and Vorlons' are BOTH influencing the younger races instead of letting them evolve naturally without interference.
Guess they don't have a 'Prime Directive' like trek.
🔔 R KNIGHTS:
🔔 FYI THERE WAS A PROPOSED TV SERIES COMBINING THE B5 & BSG UNIVERSES.
🔔 BUT FOR SOME REASON IT NEVER GOT OFF THE GROUND.
🔔 TITLE?
🔔 "BABBLESTAR GALACTICA"
😀
Regarding the movies, they tend to be interesting stories set in the B5 universe but don’t really deal with the main arc of the series except for one of them, In the Beginning. I recommend you watch ITB immediately before the final episode of season 5, it fits nicely there. As for the others, some happen within in the B5 story chronology, some after, whether you want to take an excursion away from the main arc to watch some is a matter of personal preference.
The clever thing about Babylon 5, we always thought the Shadows were the bad guys and the Vorlorns the good guys but actually they were both well intentioned.
Or, perhaps they both had poor intentions 🤐
"No one here is exactly what he appears" goes for Shadows and Vorlons too.
There are ██ 3 models of -Cylons- Vorlorns/Shadows😄It's simple... there's “shadow Vorlons” who are considered conventionally good and conventionally bad, and then there's the Brainless Vorlons, the Na'ka'lims.😂🤣
Not really surprising that a wife would know their husband’s door code.
Anna disappeared long before John game to B5 and got any code. Until now they didn't have any contact. My theory is that Anna showed B5 officer that she is John's wife, and got door code.
@@Carl_Gustav_Häyhä She likely knew codes he liked to use from when they were together and successfully tried one of those.
john "nukem" sheridan strikes again XD
29:07 Sheridan sneakily blew them away ... DC metropolitan area) rough comparison. Yeah, “mass casualties.” Sure, sure, sure.
I watched the series when it first ran. I was on edge all Summer, fearful the show would be canceled. FYI guys, in a few episodes you should be watching Babylon 5 Third Space, it's where the movie fits in the timeline.
Sheridan took out the Shadows' Babylon 5 ...
Nothing says "I want a divorce" more conclusively than dropping 1000 megatons nuke on the ex-partner!
When Justin says that if someone is pulled out of a Shadow ship that they're never quite whole again and starts breaking down, I have to wonder if Justin was *also* in a Shadow ship prior to this (or someone he knows is/was in a ship)
It's okay to use the word wife.
Justin's reactions seem quite human. I don't find the point of shoving the coordinator-analyst into the Shadow Wessel first and then pulling him back out. Why?
Here is what you need to consider about the shadow. The only reason, Sheridan was able to do what he did, was that the shadow let his ship get close to z'ha'dum. Their forces are spread out across the entire galaxy, some of them hidden for a 1000 years. Did nuking that city hurt them? Sure. But if you take away one thing from world war 2 is that bombing civilian populations is not particularly effective at reducing a states capacity to make war.
What Sheridan did was give the shadows a sharp kick to the head, so to speak. To wake them up and reconsider the war. And it worked.
It's pronounced Z'ha'BOOM now
I would suggest after season 4. As there are spoilers for season 4 within some of the movies
Kosh did leave a piece of Himself to survive.
There is a reason why the Shadows lost interest in B5, it has to do with their analysis of Sheridan and the threat he represented.
🔔 R KNIGHTS @ 7:50
🔔 THE REASON THEY DON'T HAVE LOCKED DOORS ISN'T UNIQUE TO B5.
🔔 OTHER EXAMPLES INCLUDE SUCH SHOWS AS "THE BIG BANG THEORY".
🔔 BOTTOM LINE: IT'S SIMPLY A DEVICE TO AVOID ANSWERING THE DOOR. PERIOD.
Had to wait a whole year for the next season .....torture...
I don't think this is good vs. evil - it's order vs chaos. Are the Vorlons better than the Shadows? They programmed all the younger races to perceive them as divine beings.
Relax, it's only halftime for the shadows.
Thirdspace happens in the middle of season 4 but the movies are not critical viewing. You can wait until you're done with the series no problem. And make the animated film the very last thing you watch, totally worth it.
In the Beginning should absolutely be watched between season 4 and 5. I agree the others can be delayed until after the series ends, but I see no reason why they shouldn't watch the other movies in chronological order during (and in some cases after) the run of B5.
@@fakecubed good point. In the Beginning can be watched between 4 and 5. I was just saying it's not "critical" watching. Personally, I think In the Beginning is the best one, with Thirdspace a close second.
But only because they didn't show more of Ivanova with those alien tentacles :)
This episode has a deep philosophical problem: it's 9/11 represented some five years before the actual events, with Sheridan as Al-Qaeda.
A guerrilla movement striking at the heart of a technologicaly and militarily superior enemy with a vehicular suicide run.
What can I say?
No, this analogy doesn't work - it's not that easy. Sheridan hit an important HQ-like spot of the shadows and he knew that he would meet (and therefore take out with his nukes) some important representatives of the shadows there. He used military grade destruction and didn't kill just some random civilians.
There are solid arguments for season 4 being the best, and true or not you're still in for an awesome ride.
As far as Ray being worried about the Shadows responding... at this point you could say he's a bit right but mostly wrong. One huge story plot dropped in this episode is the Shadows motivations. Ray's thinking "war" as in conquest or wiping out, but the Shadows aren't fighting a war. The Shadows come out and stir the pot every 1,000 or 10,000 years to "force" the younger races to evolve and improve. Some races do get wiped out in the process, but that's not the Shadows real goal. In some ways they are right, history has shown many of a society's greatest advancements come out of facing hardship, war being a major one.
A Shadow ships lost cost material, but they are essential Drones, no actual Shadow lives lost. I personally believe the Shadow ships are "dumbed" down so to speak, as to allow or the younger races to be able to eventually eek out some wins. Kind of a reward for getting your act together and making a plan resulting in victory.
That all said, B5 is pissing in the Shadows yard by bringing order to the chaos, and Sheridan actually killing Shadows... well that could drive them to respond harshly. On the other hand a group that more or less believes in survival of the fittest or might makes right may not get as mad either. Time and season 4 will tell.
This is a key point, this is the first time a blow was actually struck against the shadows. Which is what triggers what happens next.
@@bobstorr4986 The first blow was struck by Vorlon Ulkesh(Kosh 2) from a dozen episodes earlier. Now the first Meaningful Impact.
Akin to the United States launching an attack on Japan via the USS Hornet and James Doolittle's Raid of B-25 bombers, the US hit a seemingly invincible Japan not to do any major damage, but to shock the people and the military of Japan. This shock factor arrested their belief in their invincibility which led to pressure on Yammamoto to speed up the operation to take Midway Island. Had the Doolittle Raid never occurred, the Japanese would have conserved their carrier forces and slowly steamrolled the rest of the US Navy before consolidating gains and reinforcing bases. However, with the spell of invincibility broken, it changed the game and allowed the US to launch its invasion of Guadalcanal in August of 1942 - a mere 4 months after the Doolittle Raid and only 2 months after the Battle of Midway. That last battle was the turning point of the war in the Pacific as a rushed Japan fell prey to its belief that its military codes were not breakable. The US broke its code and was able to have enough carriers there waiting for the Japanese forces. By hitting the Shadows at their home planet - which had never previously been attacked due to its impressive defense systems - it stopped them in their tracks. Suddenly the younger races had banned together and hit their capital. The ploy to gain Sheridan or kill him had failed. No one counted on a Vorlon to be present inside of Sheridan nor did they count on Sheridan (and Franklin) discovering the implants on Anna. So, here we go! Hold onto your butts, kids, it's about to get WILD!
My theory is that Anna showed B5 officer that she is John's wife, and got door code.
The movie order should be "In the Beginning", "Thirdspace", "The River of Souls", "A Call to Arms", "The Legend of the Rangers" and "The Road Home", You should be able to watch "In the Beginning" now, this focuses on the Earth Minbari war and serves as worldbuilding for almost all the main characters in B5. Though it might be best to wait until after S04E09, since "In the Beginning" builds from that episode quite a bit and might be confusing without watching it first. "Thirdspace" should be watched sometime after S04E08. The remainder should be watched once you finish season 5.
It's much too early to watch In the Beginning. Spoils too much of season 4.
Sheridan bombed and took out the shadows capital city, this has thrown the Shadows in chaos and mourning, since alot of shadows would have died, probably some leadership. This is a major blow to the shadows, they haven't lost any of their military strength. This has propted a pause in the war, the alliance is not strong enough to opening take on the Shadow's fleets they will lose in the end in open war, they can't carry on taking 2 to 1 loses.
Remember how the Vorlons reacted when Kosh died, just imagine how the Shadows are feeling after many of them where killed and by a human.
Yeah its funny, its not like the Shadows are on a single planet, in a single city... if you nuked NY, you wouldnt have destroyed the US.
Z ha dum = Z ha boom
Thanks!
Ah the madness that's still to come😂.
That's why I love Babylon 5) for God on the side of the big battalions))))) Stop with the Flagships, the super weapons. Things are so much more interesting!
That is not a nuke the way we know.
They mentioned "fusion bomb" wich is the oposite of a nuke.
And way more powerfull.
Two of them actually, hehehe.
Current nukes are fusion bombs. They use an old-fashioned fission device (Hiroshima bomb) to kick-start the fusion reaction. There are videos on UA-cam describing how this works.
Nuclear Fusion or Nuclear Fission... I think they'd both still be "Nukes" but yes, one is very much more powerful
Fusion bombs are 1950s tech. or maybe 1940s, if you read the first test being in '51 that way.
And with this episode, did the message from the future about B5s destruction come from a Shadow fleet that was stronger from the last war, because they didn´t get B4 to win...or just because in the world without his time travel he didn´t go to Z`ha`dum and the Shadows did take out his base?
P.S. Justin´s line about being in a Shadow ship and never being quite whole again...his voice sounds like he speaks of experience.
Du-Wayne will be back...
Every thousand of years the Shadows start wars to weed out the weak.
STFU
You’re making a big mistake. Don’t ever underestimate your enemies. You will lose.
weeeeell.....actually........
Ray you are right and the fight is going to be big. I know what is going to happen in the show. You guys are going to be pleased.👍👍👍