Five Worst Tabletop Players - RPG Philosophy
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- The measure of a bad player isn't as much what they do inside the game, as to what they do around the gaming table. Here's five of the worst offenders.
My own fiction can be found here: amzn.to/2zLTxAb
00:00 Intro
01:39 The Steamroller
03:27 The Puppet Master
5:49 Willfully Ignorant
08:11 There But Not There
10:17 The Rage Monster
13:27 Closing Thoughts
So in short:
1. Let others play.
2. Play *your* character.
3. Learn how to play your character.
4. Remember there is a game.
5. Remember it's just a game.
+
4b
09:50
"Please don't watch me youtube videos in the middle of a game."
Similar to the Rage Monster is the Depression Monster, or the Eeyore. Instead of going all HULK SMASH and flipping the table, they instead spend the rest of the session in a "what's the point?" mood. They speak in a slow monotone and make comments that drag everyone else down with them, and nobody wants to confront them about it because it'll just send them further into depression or turn them into a Rage Monster.
Sigh... that's me. Usually it's because RPing my current character has revealed a personality flaw i didn't know that I had or just simply kept buried.
I have had one of each. Those were the ones who 'bullied' me. I hates them so much.
As someone who suffers from depression, I can tell you I can't always control that, and I have brought the party down doing it and I felt bad for that as well. I, however, am legitimately someone with depression versus a nihilist who isn't having fun and so sets out to ruin it for everyone else. I am self aware and apologetic, those fucking assholes (and I have dealt with them too as a DM) are just unhappy with the game and taking it out on you. And it fucking sucks.
I've done that once, but like CryingBuddha I've also got diagnosed clinical depression and I really didn't respond well to our party being railroaded into slavery. After suffering through multiple assaults IRL I struggle a bit with powerlessness/helplessness and went into a funk for about half and hour.
I had a couple players like this. The first had lots of self esteem issues and through giving him lots of encouragement and showing him that his character was really awesome.
The second was tired of gaming and just not excited about anything. He eventually stopped playing.
You forgot to mention that player who invites other players to your table without permission. My first and only 5e campaign fell apart because one guy, in my group of 7 players, brought a guy who felt that, because be was invited, he could then invite more people. Showed up at the hobby shop and found 23 people waiting for me.
Ouch. I've had a player ask permission for his college friends to visit and watch, and that was fine, because they remained respectful and silent (and very observant.) It was sincerely flattering, and I was sure to thank them afterwards. I invited them as guest players for the next session and they had an absolute blast. It was a memorable night!
I freely admit that I fell asleep during an all night campaign. The rest of the party went down into a cavern, and I held the rope so they could climb down. The GM happened ro see me rouse and come to, and asked what I was doing. I said I'm holding the rope. That became a trope for anyone not paying attention to the game. He's holding the rope.
That. Is the best "tower" of stacked dice. I have ever seen.
Right? At that point it's the dumb game distracting him from completing his masterpiece.
I have one more for you that I struggled with.
"The ego player"
A player that wants everything to shine their ego, they always want to be the best, the strongest, the most awesome out of the group and in doing so they oppress everyone including the game master cause if at any point they are not the coolest thing around that ruins their enjoyment and they will make sure to let everyone know that. They basically want to be the epic main character.
And it's worse when the player wants to be the best human being in the room out of game too.
You bring a set of new dice - he comes next week with 7 new sets of (very expensive) dice. You bring some snacks and drinks to share - next week he cooks a full meal, brings plates and silverware and cracks open expensive bottles of liquor.
You have a little plastic folder to hold your character sheet, notes, and maps - he gets a top of the line executive binder with all his sheets laminated.
It's bad enough that a person feels he has to do that, but he also has to point it out and mention it often, so we have no choice but to pointedly notice and talk about it.
I am dealing with that kind of player. He is making his character ridiculous and being condescending. My character wants to acquire a decent amount of mithral ingots or ore to try to make some interesting things because my character is an inventive person and wanted to try out some of the interesting things from a construct manual. The other player basically starts saying there is no way my character can afford any mithral ingots or ore even though I have like 3k gold.
Used to play with A DMPC just like this. He insisted on playing the greatest rogue ever while also being the DM in his own home brew world. That campaign did not last long
I played with two brothers that had been playing together forever. One brother was the DM the other brother was a 1/2 minotaur 1/2 dragon born celestial monk.
Every time we got a chest the brother got "the flaming sword of holy life!" And the rest of the party got old leather boots and a rusty dagger. It was fun stuff.
Oh yes, a favorite. If there's a problem his character can't solve - but another one can - he'll sulk until the GM throws him something where he can shine. Yes, I understand wanting your character to actually be useful, but others should get to be useful too.
The player that tells the GM that he's augmenting reality.
"I'm rolling my attack, and I'm gonna go ahead and give myself a +2 because the enemy hasn't moved yet."
"I'm rolling perception. All the normal bonuses... Plus the +2 the current lighting gives me..."
That kind of gets to me.
I can be pretty lenient, but when I'm *told* that the player is doing their own homebrew to bloat their own rolls is a p/o.
Oof, that would be torture to have to gm for.
lutin grognon
Except the bonuses were non existent rules wise.
"Are we flanking? I get +2 if we're flanking." Is different than: "I'm adding an extra +2 because the winds are favorable and guiding my sword."
Guess I'll have to agument every CD to 60 then
I'm all for players trying to be creative with the mechanics but there's a difference between, "With all this lightning lighting up the area, would that give me a bonus?" and "With all the lightning in the area I get a +2 to my perception"
lutin grognon I agree if the players are continually doing this without asking the GMs permission then I feel the GM has every right to punish the character (if the player won't listen obviously)
Aww, Seth was really picking on his Surfer Dude personality today.
Aethon056 he always chooses that character to be the “bad” character.
he also chooses him to be the good character a lot
I think he just likes talking like a 90s kid
I came to the comments just to talk about that actually. I feel better that other people noticed that
Maybe he use to be like that and just presenting it to our entertainment XD
Player 2 seems to have become the main character of most of the skits, with players 1 and 3 acting as supporting cast. So whatever the topic, player 2 is almost always the example.
"ooooh, uh really? wel... i got an 18!"
dat part cracked me up.
Good content, man. gonna binge your DM stuff. subscribed !
Seriously! "I had no idea what was happening, but because my roll was high I stand by it!" If it was low they wouldn't have. Ugh!
The player who tries to backseat GM.
How do you even attempt to backseat a GM? They are basically gods and can say your character had a heart attack and died just because reasons.
It mostly happens when the DM is new, and he let's the players dictate stuff cause he feels he's not experienced enough.
does it count if the GM asks me if something is right cause i know more about the lore than him? (40k RPG for reference)
Deadeye It's not back seating if they actually ask for your input.
Even worse when that player interrupts the DM while the DM is answering another player's question.
This has happened so often in my game that most of the players, even after 5 sessions, don't understand the rules because backseat DM is mixing up 4th and 5th edition rules for our 3.5 campaign.
Not only do I have to keep correcting his misinformation, but when I do make a ruling in the game that he doesn't like he shrugs and sarcastically says, "Well, I guess the rules are different in every edition."
One player that bothers me is the player that argues the dm is wrong for far to long, or tries to persuade the dm that they should have advantage, or the enemy should be surprised. I can understand making a case for some stuff but there is a point where when the DM says No you did not surprise the bartender you wanted to kidnap because he walked out with 4 guards and had multiple armed patrons firing out at you with muskets and youre plan revolved around him being an oblivious idiot who wouldn't be at all suspicious of a 7 foot tall Lizard saying "Hey, you wanna come meet my friends....". Sorry I'm venting.
Hahaha. This is true. I have no idea what I'd call that type of player, but I know exactly what you're talking about. And no worries about venting. Hell, every RPG Philosophy video I do is just lists of me venting.
I think I know what to call that one; the Politician.
Also called "the rules lawyer" @@sushitime8622
I, as DM, once entertained a 3 week e-mail discussion about how 5e scorching ray worked w/one player who wanted it to do more than (the eventual errata agreed) it should. I feel your pain.
My least favorite: The Flake.
Almost as bad: the SnowFlake.
"What do you mean I can't play as a Drider Psionic Noble?"
Just had to kick out a flake. He did not handle it well.
Sometimes I am a snowflake player, but I always ask if it fits into the world, and I am not messing with the dm or another player .so why cant I play a psionic Drider if it is an option?
Look, you can do that, but have less fun by having no relation to what is already established as going on in the game.
I am planning to host Princes of the Apocalypse, but I am limiting my players to picking class archetypes that revolve around elemental power. "OH WOW HOW COULD YOU DO THAT MEANIE ABLOOBLOO-" Let me explain.
It's more fun for myself and others playing to have relation to the world around them. It enriches the game through deepened lore, inter-party relations, and narrative. Playing as a psychic spider drow has virtually no link to what I'm trying to do as DM. Now, that MAY work in that Abyss Underdark module where Drow are heavily present, but part of the fun of the game is building what feels like a realistic world that involves the party.
Let's say you wanted to play Drider in PotA anyway. Well, let's see...the Monster Manual basically says you're an outcast so you'd realistically be an exiled noble. Many special snowflake character ideas I've come across are done strictly for their own character without relation to the game setting. It becomes a selfish player's fantasy character and they only focus on their own character which frankly is toxic, anti-social nonsense that can kill narrative and party-world enthusiasm.
Another thing: I'm the DM. I will say "no" the most during session 0 and character creation, but that's only because I want us all to know what to expect going into it as well as giving the players a chance to create tangible character bonds in the game world, which in all my experiences leads to more fun.
most games i play or run were a group of misfits ,we have a evil campain with a yanti noble a kenku assasin and me a changling ranger our only link is the noble paying me and the kenku or my game running stratd ( zombie genasi barbarian and half-elf storm sorcerer there only link is they hate stratd , in your campaign i would probably play my barbarian noble genasi of the storm 9son of an elfreeti sultan but i would complain that we only can choose an archtype
We once had a player that was a rage-monster and a there not there. He'd pay absolutely no attention or distract other players but as soon as he took a hit, the salt spewed forth. It was so odd. He also had this bizarre habit of rolling the nearest die to hand whenever he had to roll, regardless of how many sides it had.
Then, after we quietly sat down and explained why we were kicking him from our group, he never spoke to us again. Like we were friends before that, we just said that we'd rather not play D&D with him.
Stinks to lose a friend over that, but sounds like booting him from the group needed to be done. It's stories like this that make me glad I create my groups via Reddit and game shop posters. It's much easier to kick a stranger from a group than a friend. And once those strangers stick around for a year or two, many of them become friends.
I've got a couple of my own. The Combat Guy: He's only there for the combat, and can't be bothered to join in with the role playing or general merry-making. In particular, I have one player that will stay silent in 95% of dialogue, unless he is spoken to first. It's not a character trait, it's a player trait.
Example: My players had been traveling for a couple days, and happened onto a town of former thieves guild members. My other 4 players begin talking to locals, buying and selling supplies and goods, and one of them got a curse lifted. When it gets to his turn, he just tells me he wants to see the armorer or blacksmith. When he gets there, I try to instigate some roll play. "Top o' the mornin' to ya! Anything I can do ta help, or are ye just gonna talk me ear off? HAHA!" He looks me dead in the eye and says, "I want 3 daggers, one short bow, and 30 arrows.", then makes the motion of dropping a sack of coins in front of me. Now, I try to include everyone, and make it fun for them, and I knew he was all about the fighting and numbers. That's why I try to get at least one encounter in every game. Most of my other players say they don't mind if there's no fighting in a session, but I know he wouldn't be satisfied if there wasn't at least one bout of combat.
Also players that don't know the basic mechanics of what you can do in a turn of initiative get on my nerves, but they're generally genuine about not remembering. "Sorry, but you can't move 60 feet, swing off a rope, throw 3 daggers at 3 enemies in mid air, then stab a 4th one when you land without them making an attack of opportunity." "Why not?" "Because you're bound, gagged, and surrounded."
I once made a character with a 1,5 page of backstory the dm could use to mine plot hooks. He had a very defined personality abd I liked playing him. But instead the dm probably didn't even read my backstory, and railroaded us into whatever story He wanted. After that I made a dumb barbarian that only cares about fighting and almsot never speaks.
Most gm's have a stick so far up their asses they don't realize that some bad players / characters are like this because of bad previous experience.
The opposite is also true. I have two players in my group who like to avoid combat and danger. It's like they are afraid of dying because of a bad die roll or something. They try to solve every encounter by talking, which is fine if you like roleplay but I think that if you are supposed to be an adventurer, you should be willing to risk your life sometimes.
"Dude, it's been two years," that one really got me
Try 22 (or more - someone who was in the group years before I started and still requires constant reminders).
as a gm, players who never learn how the basic mechanics of them game work infuriate me to no end. once had a player who was a hanger on for about a year, only ever played barebones sword and board fighters and yet never bothered to learn that you don't use a d8 for attack rolls.
Comrade Yui my personal pet peeves are characters who make intentionally bad characters. Like they put an 8 in their primary stat for no real reason.
i think that can be interesting as long as the character itself is cool. had a player put a 7 in their rogue's dex and she played it as the rogue being more of a thuggish person who was the muscle for a crime boss, it worked out well
Comrade Yui yes that works. I have played with an 8 int. wizard who played it as a jock bladesinger. There are ways to make it work, but I mean the person who makes a tiefling druid and doesn't use anything from the tiefling, and combines the issue you were talking about where she just writes whatever spells sound cool and doesn't know what they do.
That drives me nuts, too. I had a player who flaked out a lot, and then wouldnt pay attention when they showed up. About two months into the campaign I called for a Vigor roll (Savage Worlds) and was met with "I dont know what that is!". It took all my willpower not to explode.
Now that's just sad. I would tell them to read Basic Rules, linking them to the PDF since the full PHB would be too hard. Being willfully ignorant? Well then I'm only teaching you about the basics.
#6: The Hostage Taker. "I host the games so I decide if and when we play, I don't care what everyone else considers important! If you argue with me, no one gets to play and I decide that a game that I don't even run is completely over!"
Just had a group fall apart where one person did that, his girlfriend followed along because he constantly controls her, and the other guy is a coward when it comes to conflict.
Sounds like no great loss tbh
Once had a new player come in mid-campaign who insisted on having headphones on to listen to Weird Al while we were playing our D&D game. He was actually mumbling the lyrics to White and Nerdy to himself. Wasn't paying attention to the game at all, but his eyes just screamed "I'm looking for peer approval this way". I wanted to throw him out the nearest window.
If you ever make an updated list, I believe you should include the "Pointless Serial Killer" to the list.
I'm talking about players who create evil characters, or even neutral characters, and will kill off any NPC that even remotely disagrees with them. I've been in situations were characters have stabbed important plotline NPCs over disputes as simple as reserving personal information. It very often doesn't make sense with the character they are running, nor does it make realistic sense, as there are few beleiveable characters that are willing to murder any individual for any slight.
Sound like another name for "Murder Hobo": www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=murderhobo
I will say that they are fairly easy to deal with, at least from GM perspective: Simply do not play any RPG that creates them! (That is the entire D&D series and similar systems) As it is usually the same systems deprived by the crappy alignment system.
I disagree, you find them in any RPG system that has combat. It's usually more like the player letting their id run wild. Given the freedom to do whatever, they lash out at an in-game obstacle because they don't think about the consequences. Its sort of like playing any open-world sandbox video game (Elder Scrolls, GTA, etc) You tend to go on a rampage from time to time. The difference is that at the table, these players dont realize it negatively impacts the rest of the party. Usually they just need a "chill out" talking to.
The Pointless Serial Killer, The Pointless Kleptomaniac... I've played a fair bit of LN and CN characters, though I despise CEs and CGs who falsely advertise themselves as good. CNs are okay, so long as it makes sense in character(my Red Taninim(Dragon PC) comes into mind) but not an excuse to be non-chalant about everything.
I get it, Chaotics can get to be dickwads to both NPCs and other PCs alike, it's just when it gets in the way of moving the game forward. This can be also conversely applied to any alignment really.
@@dracmeister I personally approach chaotic's as just being selfish. Having a bit of a I'm a bit more important than the rest of you type. What I mean is that push comes to shove they will put their own goals or self preservation first depending on the other half of their alignment. But never as a brooding, lashes out at everything that they precive as looking at them funny. I been playing a chaotic Neutral bard-warlock and only once did she ever lash out at a npc in anger and that was during our groups play through of Curse of Strahd as we all were in Van Richton's tower where she found his journal and read some entries learning that he had killed a few Vistani, including my charecters late wife for no obvious provocation. My charecter was adopted into the Vistani so she leaped on him and was choking him all while asking him why, the party got her to stop and he explained his reasoning and she read him the riot act saying that he was no better as the ones he killed weren't the ones who wronged him and so on and that the only reason why she won't kill him wasn't because madam Eva said that he is the one who will help her friends defeat Strahd but so he will live what little time he has knowing that a Vistania was the better person than he ever could be. It made things tense for the group as they were always worried that him and her were going to kill each other eventually but they eventually talked it out and got a little respect for each other even with both helping save the other at different points in the final push through castle Ravenloft. But yeah I don't ever see Chaotic whatever as meaning chaotic asshat unless you are playing a Villian.
Give them a talking to and if they can't get it together to RP then force the consequences of their in game actions upon them i.e. -reroll.
Dealing with distracted players is one of the big issues I tend to face, its gotten better over time but in high school, when our smartphones and other mobile devices were a bit newer it was a lot worse.
Dustin Deckert yeah there is one player in our group that is an absolute type 2. I do sympathize because he has bad adhd and everyone else decided to have initiative outside of combat, (which means waiting 10-20 mins, for your turn) but he constantly plays loud videos on his phone, and doesnt even read the fucking group chat most of the time, which has lead to me not being able to finish a three shot I was running. He never seems to care
Alan Brockhaus we used to institute a total no phones rule, but for us anyway a good amount of us have reference materials on our phone, but I would suggest talking to him and trying to get things sorted out. Maybe he should have a fidget cube or something, I have add myself and I find it hand to have something quiet I can mess with during games, it helps me focus by keeping my hands busy. It won't work for everyone but it's worth a shot. At the end of the day if things don't work out then they don't, but at least you can say you tried.Yeah
Dustin Deckert I don't know if he has tried a fidget cube before. It might be because he is prescribed an unhealthy amount of adhd meds (it is very bad) and we only see him off if it during our gaming session. The DM has said multiple times to get off the phone. I do also have a tendency to want to be on my phone, but I try to resist it and I only play games that don't require thought. such as subway surfer or flow free. my biggest issue is his inability to read the group chat, and he is oblivious to why I am upset about it.
I've had a similar issue with one friend, in general he has had issues in the past with scheduling and texting or messaging back, and well he got better on his own. I'm not really sure what advice to give, but I hope that things work out for the best. As for a fidget cube, I've seen them at Walmart and my local game store for around 5 or 6 dollars. And fidget toys are pretty common now after the spinner craze so it could be worth a shot but who really knows?
Dustin Deckert we have 2 of these people in our play group one is really really new to tabletop the other is our GM but only when he gets to be a player when he GMs hes on point give him a char sheet and hes off to the races with jis game boy or something
Flavor of the Weekers. I had a guy who was a solid all arounder till a new source book dropped that featured a new Clan, class, or Powersets. Then he would drop his character for a new one.
Fashion Victims. these guys are mostly a LARP thing. They show up in full costume even if they don't have too. And trust me comfortable shoes are a very necessary piece of LARP gear.
Meat loaf this is a good one for a follow up video lol
Jeez, the one game I participate in I play with some of my best friends (known these people for years) and the DM is likewise, everybody's friend as well. He's a phenomenal guy and a damm good/inventive DM especially for this being 1st role-playing game. However, anyone who seems remotely interested in the game he wants to participate because he wants everyone to be included and have fun but that lead him to including his girlfriend in the game. She's not an overtly bad person but she is bad players #2 & #3. She's never involved and never pays attention so as a result she never knows anything. (We only play once a month now as well because she is the only player who hates long sessions, so the compromise our DM came up with this we only play one long session a month, thanks) We would kick her out if we could, but she is his gf and despite how she acts at the table she always acts like she loves d&d whenever she's with the DM. (they live together).
Update: She is becoming slightly more involved with her character, which is good, but now she treats her character as a total joke. Humor is fine, damm near encouraged every now and then at the table, (I'm a bard for fuck's sake) but not if it defines your whole character Because we still take the game seriously as a whole. I'm mainly posting this to get it off my chest. They really is nothing we can do, Because let's face it, the DM will always have a bias towards his gf. Thanks for reading if anyone did.
Sirius Mann,
Monk 4 (Way of the Drunken Master)
Backstory:
An unserious man walked out of his home and stubbed his toe. An unserious man fell into a deep melancholy, and became, A Depressed Man. A Depressed Man found an ancient monastery, and trained relentlessly to forget, the shame and embarrassment of, stubbing his toe. A disciplined man told a Depressed Man that he needed discipline, and focus, if he ever hoped to become, a serious man. In that moment, a depressed man, chose to become, a serious man. A Serious Man, has since, always been a, serious man. A serious man has wandered the world, seeking to become, a heroic man. When a serious man, has become, a heroic man, a heroic man will return to his village, where a heroic man, will have the will and strength to endure, the shame and embarrassment of, stubbing his toe. A serious man must deal with every situation, seriously. If a serious man, was not to hand every situation seriously, he could not become, a heroic man.
Go out of your way to encourage her. It’s hard getting into rpg’s. Especially so for a lot of women trying to break in to what’s a bit of a “boys club”. The way to handle these players as a GM or another player is to engage them, whatever it takes, so that they can become comfortable and learn good habits and attitudes (hopefully) from the other, more experienced players. Every now and then, make the session “The [Insert Name Here] Show” (which I feel is good idea for every PC). Foster her love of the art! Role playing has a lot of positive emotional and creative value and can make definite impacts in people’s lives if the “group” has a positive attitude. There is real value here, and it should be spread. :D rant ended
Ugh. Had a GM bring his girlfriend to the game and it didn't work out at all. She was obviously disinterested, knew nothing to the point where he had to play her character, and got crabby and fell asleep at the table after an hour or two, which became an escalating source of distress for the GM until the session simply couldn't go on anymore. I still have absolutely no idea why she kept joining us. I mean, she was part of the friends group, so not an outsider, and she was into games; but she clearly wasn't into DND and wasn't having any fun at all beyond the initial "hang-out" portion of any gaming session.
Nothing against girlfriends gaming. As a GM, I started a campaign with my girlfriend as a player. However, it wasn't her first campaign and she really wanted to be there. She contributed and we all had fun. Didn't stop one of the players from treating her like the "GM's girlfriend", but that's on him.
Kon Trarien that’s the thing, it’s not gendered. It’s a matter of the player wanting to be there.
It's difficult, but people should comfortable and confident enough to communicate and stand up to one another (respectfully) before playing D&D together.
It's not The Witcher, Red Dead or Zelda, where you do as you please, when you please, because you're on your own.
In D&D we have to compromise & cooperate to drive the fun ourselves, together.
Involving a (live-in) significant other is a serious decision that should be weighed against their seriousness, manners and the group dynamics.
Got a horror story of a bad player.
He's 4 of those player types rolled into one.
At level 4, before an encounter with a giant lake monster, he kept saying it was an aboleth. I asked him how he'd know and "Rogue Training" was his best answer. When it wasn't an aboleth, I 'swerved' him.
The party encountered a behir, he refused to believe that the monster is in the Monster manual in 5e. While combat was still going on, he asked to see the monster manual.
Incredible. You should have kicked him out right then and there.
Even if you had made a new monster up on the spot, so what! Your game, your rules.
As long as you don't (obviously) railroad the players and keep it reasonably fair, anything goes.
He should have just thanked you and been happy to be part of the session.
Some People act so annoyingly entitled...
Roland P. To play devil's advocate, that player may have been under the impression that they were playing a more typical game of D&D without homebrew (as homebrewed monsters can be as unfair as homebrew races, classes, and spells) and could rightly be concerned.
My response to the accusation would have been to breiflt show the image of the creature (I often show an image when first describing a new monster) and freely show the player the name of the creature with your hand over the stat block.
Regarding the it's an Aboleth incident, how I would have dealt with your player is first have that character roll a DC 20 to 25 (Hard to Very hard) History check to see if they've every actually heard about this creature.
Zero The Crow
He did see the image of the behir in the monster manual. After showing the image he asked for my book as combat was still going on.
In a bit of detail. Here's the dialog.
"You encounter a blue serpentine beast with many limbs."
"There's nothing like that in the monster manual!"
"Yes there is, roll initiative"
A few players get a turn in, I do a breath attack.
"it has a breath attack!? This has to be in volos or an older edition"
"it's not"
I show him the page with the behir art on it just showing the creature.
A combat round ends.
"While x decides on a spell, can I read the monster manual?"
"No"
Que the bickering.
dreamakuma Yea, it sounds like your player may not fully understand that they don't need to see the monster stats because unlike some games that's not freely given player information.
Now, if the character is now inspired to learn about these monsters should they come across them again you can open that path for them this mechanically giving them information such as lore or facts about their stats (example: you learn that it has a though hide like [other creature with same AC] or give that information it has an AC of X. This is the main approach I recommend for players who play characters who want to learn things like this, sometimes I've given small temporary boons such as the monster needs to role 1 higher or the character needs to roll 1 less to hit to reflect this study with the simple caveat that the player can only have on research boon at a time and the information needs to be studyied regularly to really provide a tangible boon.
If the player is just curious about the monster lore and such (& you're not planning on using it again anythine soon) you could let the player read it, just not during combat with it obviously. I both DM and play PCs so I own my own MM but just know not to use it to meta an encounter, in fact I often ignore things I know unless my PC passes knowledge checks.
Zero The Crow
I'm all for showing behind the screen once the dice are put up. This player is combative and wants to win regardless. The thing that got him kicked was just terrible.
I ran I6: Castle Ravenloft. He read the adventure ahead of time and killed off NPC's without any provocation, and started spoiling surprises about Strahd.
So, I've been watching these videos for a few days (just found your channel) and I caught myself actually thinking of the various players in your skits as different individuals. Kudos to your acting!
Hey Seth, this vid was super informative; love your stuff!
Love your alternate personalities in the sketches keep up the awesome work.
8:52 That 18 could work wonders if he'd quoted Tyrion Lannister and said the "In my own bed, at the age of eighty..." thing
Thanks Seth! Reminds me of Matt Colville's video on a similar topic, but definitely adds to that discussion. I was wondering if you might do a follow up on how to deal with these bad player archetypes?
you know, I revisit these rpg philosophy vids a lot and I'm always impressed at how much they apply to just a social life in general. Earlier today I was reminded that a particular family member of mine has a tendency to be a rage monster of the "bottle it up variety". They do not play RPGs at all. But they are someone I tend to avoid driving with or I try to keep any errands/public social visits on the briefer end because I know it's only a matter of time till they blow.
On a more lighthearted note (and I guess more to the point), these videos have helped me more than at the table, they've helped me make going through just about any day easier and more fun, or at least made it easier to spot where problems start. Thanks Seth, life would be so much worse without you.
Dude, I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!! :D
You have great content, thanks for sharing!
I have to give you props on your insight. I'm a new player, but I kinda know how things work and I have some common sense when it comes to gaming and stuff. I appreciate how your information and explanation is not just fantasy dnd but even sci-fi. Keep doin what you're doing man
Hey! I’m a new subscriber, under a week, and I’ve watched a ton of your videos. The comedy is great and the content informative, keep up the great work man!
This is the first video I've seen of yours, fantastic content, definitely subscribed. As an aside, I can't help but think it must be absolute hell dusting those shelves with all the minis on them.
Seth's scenario reviews & recaps are wonderful. You will binge. ;-)
NefariousKoel Lol, I already have
I think about tge dusting thing alot. Im pretty poor so I have basically nothing on my shelves and theyre already difficult to clean, cant even wrap my head around cleaning a mini shelf display
birbfanchannel tighto I have one Warhammer mini on my shelf that collects and shows dust like no other. That many minis must look like Santa's village after a week or two
Glad you're enjoying my little channel. The game reviews are my bigger passion. My personal favorites are Paladin Dice and the Paranoia review (which my creator enjoyment is probably way different than regular viewer enjoyment).
As for the shelves, I just try not to look at them. Every so often I bust out the canned air and blast all the dust out of the little nooks and crannies in the miniatures. The bulk of my minis are safely away in cases, but for those too large to fit in a case, they live on the shelves beneath a protective layer of dust.
The "I'm Just Playing In Character Used as a Justification for Disruptive Behavior"
The "I Can't Bother to Engage With the Story So I'm Going Off In Whatever Direction"
The Flake
Love your skits, so fun!
Thanks for making this video! A lot of people will complain about "Top 5" lists (for valid reasons sometimes) but this one manages to point out some of the more egregious examples of unfortunate player encounters one might have to deal with, something I've managed to have the misfortune of meeting a few too many times (or, at times, been myself, regrettably).
I did a bit of steamroller stuff in my early days, always wanting to talk to everybody, but I think starting to DM myself helped me put a lot of energy into that.
I think he could have gone on for two hours or more making it a top 20 list!
My favorite video of yours! Great job
That ad blurb at the end. Love it :)
Hey man. I've gotta say, I am loving your videos. I've seen a few videos from other people about rpgs, but they've never held my attention like yours do. Just subscribed and I'm gonna start binging your videos on my lunch breaks. Keep up the good work.
Glad you're enjoying them.
As always, excellent content.
My first time DMing, I had one player who was a passive-aggressive rage monster. Eventually, so much tension and resentment built up in the room because of this one player that a shouting match erupted and the session ended early. That was not a fun experience.
I know this is an old video, but I wanted to say thank you. I've watched a bunch of videos and I really like them. They're good entertainment even in and of themselves.
Always good Seth, keep it up.
As always, an insightful video. Very much enjoyed it! Running off of this idea, could you also make a "Five Best Tabletop Players"? I've seen a lot of "Worst of..." videos, not a lot of the opposite. I think it could be a good guide for everyone equally what it looks like to be welcomed and appreciated at the table; giving it 100% while making it look as though you're giving 120%.
Sorry. No can do. I have no idea how to shut a fuck up. Could you demonstrate?
DrTheKay why you being rude dude?
@@arlaxazure486
Well, I suppose you'd have to first find someone to give you one. After someone gave you a fuck, you could study it to find out the best way to shut it up. That is, if it really needed shutting up.
Hahahaha!!! The first skit had be rolling!!! I love your videos!
“It’s been 2 years, when you plannin to start learnin?!”
I'm starting to dm & I'm trying to get my friends to play and they can't keep concentration for more than minute before leaving the TABLE.
You may have to delay your game for a little bit before starting your story. Make a list of the things that you observe happening and how it distracts you from running the game effectively. Don't single out but calmly have a discussion about how to stop the bad gaming table behavior. Are they there at the game to play or is this just a social exercise. Find out what is keeping them from being committed to the game for the 4-5 hrs it takes. Offer a 5-10 break every so often but insist that when they are back, there is an expectation for them to be fully involved. Penalties for breaking the rules might be docking xp or if it continues to be and issue just not running the game for them and finding other players willing to show you the respect you need to run stories. If they are young players you might have to give them more leeway but if they are adults expect them to behave like adults.
1) Maybe they don't want to play. Get different players.
2) Pick a system and play style that requires everyone to take action, and fast.
It is a social exercise, but there is also a social contract. Here are a few tips.
Start each game night with a BS session. Let everyone catch up, talk, get their stuff out, snacks, set up, and blow off the steam.
Talk to the group before hand about constraints. And enforce delimiters.
Take planned breaks that the group expects.
IE- my group knows we play approximately 3 hours. I start by letting them BS, I BS too... we talk about spent XP, things they need, whatever, then I start my background music and go "alright, where did we leave off?" And go around the table, letting them recap exactly where we paused. I then re-set the scene with my flowery language. We have a break about halfway through, if anyone needs it. And when we near our 3 hour mark, I find a stopping point / cliff hanger. And end with a session ending, "what did we learn?" As they pack up their stuff.
It helps to bookend your play, in a known, expected way. Its like clocking in / out of work.
Set ground rules.
Start the game with "Roll Initiative!"
Another great video Seth!
Sadly, the There But Not There describes my whole group. I'm pretty new but when I was GM, I was constantly being interrupted by someone showing a video or telling a bad joke. The worst time was when every one of my players was playing Hearthstone as I was trying to run the game.
A couple for me is the munchkin, the player who always min-maxes their character to the extreme level and constantly strives for the absolute most powerful gear, and the other is the deadbeat player, the player that never even supplies the bare basics for themselves they never have any dice or paper or books or pencils nor do they ever supply snacks or drinks for the group, I can understand and forgive that sometimes people forget their things, but for someone to never anything hurts the group as a whole, I understand that each player should have extra dice , pencils, etc because you never know what happens when life happens.
The only time munchkins are allowed is when that's the point. Aka the min-max hell pathfinder game I'm playing where its just a ridiculously difficult dungeon crawl where you just min-max the fuck out of a character and level in 2 classes at once, for all the bonuses like BAB, CMB, CMD, and skill points are just of the higher class, you get both class skills, both class' proficiencies, both class' abilities, it's fun as fuck. And I'm a huge fan of heavy RP, but sometimes if the point of a game is to number-crunch, and you know that's what you're getting into, that's what you're getting into and it's so much fun. But min-max hell is the only place where munchkins are allowed
Hello Mr. S! Will you pan over your bookcase someday on a vid? Looks like you have some treasures there. Thanks for all your content! Keep up the good works!
Man i remember several games I've been in before where there was just that guy, once, he was the GM (I hate that guy). The biggest player, was actually a friends of mine, and the DM's brother (Not the GM i hate). We were in a high power campaign, and started out with only 3 guys, so we each made 2 people to play (we later got 2 more players, and took a lot of balancing) This guy would basically stop games for hours at a time just so he can have the most out of the rules or some rules lawyering, but not only that, would stop games to correct you if anyone else tried to optimize or do the same.
The bad GM was basically the worst i've ever had. Steamrolled, puppeteered, deus ex machina, punished players he didnt like in game, terrible story, no room for character development, and would make up rules on the fly and refused to look them up when he was wrong (I get house rules and all, but there are a few things that are just basics of the game, and house rules should be mentioned in advance). For example, he started a days long argument with me, because i said that bastard swords are two handed and martial weapons, but one handed as exotic. Like I wasn't even upset about it, but he refused to be cool about it, and basically targeted me with all his bullying bullshit (most likely because I was a DM for my friend's other games and I actually knew the rules. My buddy even confirmed thats why he was mean to me after I left) To clarify, I would never stop game or anything. I would simply ask for a minute to ask whether or not this was the case, or to make sure what he said was correct, because it contradicted what I knew to be right, but I never outright called him wrong. In the end, I had my character commit suicide and rode my bike home in the rain, because fuck him.
Hi Seth, I love your videos. Actually, I'm about to play as a keeper for The Haunting (via the quickstart) as my first experience with Call of Cthulhu because I've loved your reviews so much. However, my group and I are somewhat used to D&D and the way CoC handles money and gear is very confusing to us who are normally playing gold-hungry adventurers.
I was wondering if you have any tips or advice for handling 7e CoC gear, weapons and money?
Awesome. Hope you and your players love it.
Switching over from a game that is all about getting the loot to one that isn't is a bit weird at first. Ain't gonna lie. Best thing to do is to be upfront with them that CoC isn't about the money, or at least isn't about the small expenses. It might take a few games for then (and you) to get used to it, and I even pump up the money reward in many adventures just because all of us like having that sweet, sweet imaginary wealth.
So, how it works is the players buy their Credit Rating as they would any other skill. Whatever bracket they fall into determines their money including daily expenses. Average income has a daily allowance of $10. Remember that's $10 in 1920's dollars, which is like $130 in today's money. Characters can't save this. Use it or lose it. If they go shopping, they can spend up to $10 without having to make any bookkeeping notes on their sheet. If they spend more, the ENTIRE amount comes out of their Available Cash. That daily amount will likely go toward little things like meals, hotels, cab-fare, etc. Then there's Assets. Assets are non-liquid money (or it can be, such as money in the bank) but usually its invested in something such as a house, furniture, a car, neato antiques, etc. So if your PC has, let's say, $15,000 in assets, you can say that it's made of a $8,000 house, a $600 car, $1000 in furnishings, and the remaining $5,400 is money in the bank or invested in the Stock Market, or maybe their business.
Make sense?
Now, if you and your players dig The Haunting, and you want to try more CoC, you might want to check out Doors to Darkness. It's designed for new Keepers and Players. The first adventure, The Darkness Beneath the Hill, is a dungeon-crawl, and your D&D veterans might enjoy that.
Seth Skorkowsky Wow, thanks for such a detailed response. This makes a lot more sense now. I remember looking at credit rating and thinking “but what does it mean? I understand living expenses but how does it affect pcs in game?” So really, thank you for clearing that up.
In addition to what Seth said, you may also consider "The Edge of Darkness" from CoC 6th Ed Core. I've used it to start every campaign with new people, and Seth already reviewed it!
Other than the rather excellent Doors to Darkness, I recommend Mansions of Madness and the Curse of Cthulhu (ignore the Day of the Beast campaign until Seth or someone gives some advice. Its not new Keeper friendly.). My favorite from Curse, for instance, is directly based off of an HPL story (just make sure to keep players in the dark about that). ;)
I really like your acting in the Ramones guy. It's so good I forget sometimes that you're all the same person!
Excellent video as always. Personally, I'm terrified of the idea of being a Puppetmaster, to the point where I'm hesitant to offer advice to another player on how to make their character function better mechanically. I hate the thought that I might be influencing people to change their character, even if it's something that has little impact on who their character actually is, like wielding a glaive instead of dual-wielding scimitars (two attacks from a range where someone would have to move in to hit you is safer than 3 attacks in melee range, and while hitting three times at d6 might have a higher minimum and average damage than twice at d10, it's worth it to have fewer attack rolls and a higher maximum damage).
Oh! Do not be terrified... See it this way instead: You have identified the problem, now deal with it!
As the saying goes: "A good start is half the battle.".
I feel like the advice you just mentioned here was actually helpful and could benefit the game! I don't think that's Puppetmaster behavior as long as you let them make their own decision in the end!
And if it's their first couple of characters, don't sweat it. After that, if they're having problems, ask them what they are looking for: are they trying to make a Legolas or an Aragorn. Don't go for the best damage or AC.
although we have actually watched your videos in game, it might be something we did while Gamemaster was setting up the next scene, so we did to where everyone could watch. Still love that episode about Scott Brown Properties. Also live in Texas and its hilarious of a concept!
Dude, great vid. Nice list and awesome insights.
But really... You could try to control that auto-focus on your cam. The constant change kinda gave me the heebie-jeebies.
Why have I not seen these videos before? THEY'RE SO GOOD!
I would also add to the list “Self-appointed Co-GM.” This player takes it upon themselves to answer every question directed at the GM. This is particularly bad with players who know the system well and it’s a rules question asked to the GM.
Nezzeraj I have someone like this in my group because I'm newer to the system (PTU) and also I like to alter rules on the fly if it's hampering the fun. This guy always answers people when they are trying to ask me something, which I don't mind sometimes because I'm newer to the system, but when I alter a rule and tell my players he will become somewhat of a rules lawyer and argue with me about the change.
I'm very guilty of this. I play with a lot of newer GM's and people who are willfully ignorant. They want to run a very broken homebrew, and when I'm a player it gets very frustrating having my entire class "re-written" because of GM fiat (aka "I dont know the rule for it, so the answer is no").
Milo M I don't think I've ever been that GM but I had one who kept asking me not to do something because he wasn't too confident with the rules. As I said my gm style is "as long as it doesn't break the game or ruin it for anyone else then just go ahead"
That sounds a bit frustrating but overall fair. We rotate GM's in my group and two of them just detest reading rulebooks and won't do it. They'd rather just use the knowledge they remember from being a player to run campaigns and then homebrew the rest. This ultimately leads to them completely ignoring certain classes or not balancing the game at all. I'm a game design student so this drives me bonkers.
I used to be the worst kind of rules lawyer, but I learned to reign it in when it was somebody else's game. What I do now is generally keep quiet unless I'm asked by the GM about how a rule works.
Yay new video!! Wooow!
Do you have names for these characters? If not, I'd like to submit: Urban Cowboy, DudeBro the Magnificent, and Dweebles.
While it took six months to happen, Dweebles has officially been adapted as that character's nickname in a video.
Urban Cowboy is Mike, DudeBro is Todd. Dweebles evidently had a real name, but now it may never be known.
And... dweebles is canon.
I don't want to name names, but I'll keep that "incognito" Seth in mind. Thanks for posting!
I have two steamrollers that constantly try to steamroll each other at times! Sometimes I forget I have a group of 5. Great vid Seth!
I’m new to D&D and this gave me some decent insight as to what not to do, thanks
Great insights Seth.
I relate to being the steamroller.
I was playing my first D&D session and I was really excited, and this lead to me trying always to be in the action, even if it was a backstory moment for another character.
After watching this video I realize my mistakes, and since we all died and we're making new characters I'm going to try to calm down a bit.
01) Throws tantrum every time he fails rolls
02) Throws tantrum every time he rolls low damage
03) Cheats with dice rolls
04) Throws tantrum whenever his character loses "too much" HP
05) Throws tantrum whenever his character gets cursed
06) Throws tantrum if his character loses any bonus or advantage
07) Throws tantrum whenever anything remotely negative happens to his character
08) Cheats with HP and timed status effects on his character sheet
09) Metagamingly avoids DM's prepared adventure just so he can keep his character “safe”
10) Throws tantrum whenever he must spend his gold
11) Throws tantrum whenever he must spend his resources
12) Throws tantrum if encumbrance rules get used
13) Throws tantrum if food, water, lamp oil, bedroll, and tent rules get used
14) Throws tantrum if his character gets penalised for sleeping in his armour
15) Throws tantrum if rules for putting on and taking off armour get used
16) Will never declare where he places his equipment
17) Insists that his equipment is always with him and ready
18) Insists that his equipment is always locked away and hidden so it can't be stolen
19) Will never declare memorised spells or declare attacks in advance
20) Insists that he always has exactly whatever he needs for every encounter
21) Cheats with money, resources, encumbrance, spells, and preparations on his character sheet
22) Complains his character isn't "effective" if he doesn't have the most protective armour
23) Complains he can't start "having fun" until his character has an artifact level weapon
24) Complains his character isn't "effective" if he doesn't have max attributes and HP
25) Complains his character isn't "effective" unless he can kill everything in one round without losing HP
26) Throws tantrum if enemies escape
27) Throws tantrum if treasure gets lost or destroyed
28) Throws tantrum if his character fails to save hostages or whatever
29) Throws tantrum if his character doesn't completely succeed in every single encounter
30) Throws tantrum if enemies actually use their useful magic items during battle
31) Accuses DM of "cheating" on enemy skills, resources, encumbrance, and preparations
32) Accuses DM of "cheating" if ally NPCs (free hirelings) miss, or lose morale during battle
33) Accuses DM of "ignorance" if ally NPCs (free hirelings) don't always choose best action
34) Throws tantrum if any kind of ally NPC gets any treasure or "steals" any XP from encounters
35) Accuses DM of "ignorance" if NPC, spell, equipment stats aren't as beneficial to him as books state
36) Doesn't even try to hide that he's read and is metagaming from whatever module DM is running
37) Insists bullying or cheating NPCs he "doesn't like" should not cause negative consequences
38) Insists threatening NPCs who "disrespect him" shouldn't affect Alignment or Reputation
39) Insists characters can share one room or whatever and repurpose items just to get around fees
40) Never gets around to actually creating a concept or backstory for his character
41) Never gets around to actually describing his character's appearance, age, or clothes
42) If pressed, will say his character looks awesomely unique, regardless of setting
43) Throws tantrum if being awesomely unique has negative consequences
44) Never takes into account his character's Attribute scores when describing his character
45) Describes every character he makes with just one word-- "badass"
46) Describes his character's motivation for their every action as-- "power hungry"
47) Considers his character an extension of his own psyche, instead of their own person
48) Never penalises his character for having "dump stats" like CHA, CON, INT, or WIS
49) Never describes his character's actions or verbalises his character's dialog
50) Complains about rolling anything below 16 during chargen, and demands "do overs"
51) Spends chargen trying to get one extra tiny bonus, by begging DM for one extra point
52) Spends chargen going through every rulebook trying to find loopholes that will grant him bonuses
53) Creates absolutely absurd character combinations just because they grant him bonuses
54) Spends zero time during chargen using starting money to buy required mundane equipment
55) Loudly plays with his smartphone, watches telly, or goofs off, when DM or PCs are going
56) Takes anything that happens to his character as a personal attack against himself
57) Treats DM as his enemy or opponent, and believes DM isn't fair, honest, or empathetic
58) Insists he can "win" or "100% complete" the game, and throws tantrums when he "doesn't"
59) Insists the game doesn't truly start until his character is that setting's most powerful being
60) Is constantly bored and constantly rushes DM to get to that point where the game "truly starts"
61) Should be paying Psychologist for Roleplaying Therapy, not using Roleplaying Games for therapy
Seth, many of these issues do have solutions that GM's can do. For instance:
1) The Rage Monster: This has a two-prong approach. The first, for things like books and supplies, the GM should have copies of all the books being used in the campaign that night. A table rule can be "If the GM doesn't have that book, we're not using it." Same goes for dice (there are cheap, ugly bags of dice that work well for this), writing tools, and paper. This way, the GM can lend out books to players who don't have them, so the rage monster can't get upset when someone uses their things. As a DM, I have a copy of the Player's Handbook, but I don't often use it. (I usually make tables of the notes I need and tend to lean on the DMG and Monster Manual.) So, for me to lend out the PH or Xanathor's Guide to a player isn't going to impact me as much.
As for repeated incidents, it's the GM's duty to pull the player aside and have "the talk". It can go something like, "Look, I screwed up. I should have given some description to warn you of the impending danger, and that's all on me. If you give me a chance, I'll create something in the story to bring back your character from the dead. However, expressing your frustration in that manner wasn't okay, either. It really upset a lot of people, and they may not feel comfortable having you as part of the group. I still want you as a part of this and future games, so I'm asking you to work on the anger a bit. It's okay to express frustration at a mistake that was made, but try to find a more positive way to express that frustration and give the person who made the mistake a chance to make amends." Then, if they don't get it or at least show they're trying to reign in the anger, they had their warning and give them the boot.
There's more, but I got to get my daughter.
True, but... people that are prone to get angry or overly frustrated at small things are still going to do it. The GM might have loaner books (I usually do) but if one player is using the loaner the Rage Monster can still get upset that THEY don't have it at that very moment. Unless of course the GM is now to provide everyone with a copy (most RPG books ain't cheap and that's a lot of expense to be dropping on the GM). But people that get explosive will still find an excuse. Maybe a certain trick/trap is taking longer than they expected, maybe the Healer isn't healing them "enough", maybe their rolls are bad this session and they're angry at the universe for their character not being able to do the task. They always get "the talk" but in my experience most of the time the answer comes down to that they were angry at something outside the game and brought that with them and lashed out at the first person or thing they could. As a GM, I'll usually take that abuse and have the talk. I play with my close friends. I don't boot people easily, but I have. The moment that abuse directs at my other players the Rage Monster is on extremely thin ice. Those are the "come to Jesus" talks because no one abuses my players.
Back... and my point is, as the GM, you're expected to be running the show, so you should be doing things to head off these behaviors, and if that doesn't work, then asking the offending players to leave. You just spent fourteen minutes complaining about them, but not really offering solutions as a GM on how to solve them. For instance:
1) The Loot Whore - Got a player who's greedy AND you've pulled them aside and spoke to them many time? You did mention in game mechanics like limits on quantity and types of magical items. Ever wonder why you can only wear one mystical ring on each hand (and probably need to store each ring separately)? Wonder no more as the player learns that not all magical items play nicely with each other. Grabbing magical items not appropriate for your class or really suited for another? Well, maybe the reason that Mages use wands, and not knights, is that magic is a tricky thing to use and maybe someone not trained in the ways of magic requires a roll on the Wild Magic table. Oh, and don't forget all of those cursed items floating around. (The ancient world's version of cheap, chinese knockoffs.) Or, hell, it could be a cheap knockoff of a powerful relic that just doesn't always work the way they want. And if you REALLY want to teach them a lesson, give them the intelligent version of whatever artifact they're after, with the caveat that the GM treats it like any other NPC. Maybe only the owner or wielder can hear its voice... and... it... WON'T... SHUT... THE... F... UP! (Think of the character Grr from Invader Zim, but only the character who owns/wields him can hear the voice.)
And, why are you telling your players what the items are? They should be either skilled in lore and identification or seeking out the services of someone who is. And, I'd suggest to the party that it's up to the owners of the magical items to pay to have them appraised and identified.
2) The perpetual Noob - Yeah, I can see on some of these games, where all the F---ing modifiers can become a nightmare to keep track. (One of the things I'm thankful for in DnDBeyond.com is that you can add these things to the character sheet, and the system will automatically tabulate them for you for key stats, like initiative modifiers.) So, why not invite the problem player over an hour before the game to go over stuff? You can say, "Look, I understand the rules can sometimes be frustrating, but we also need to keep the game moving. How about you and I sit down and make a cheat sheet for your character?" Help them to see the important stats, but at the same time, don't build the cheat sheet for them.
3) Murder hobos - Well, this might be easier or harder to deal with. You're going to have to figure out why they decided to roleplay as a Cuisinart stuck in the puree mode. It could be something as simple as they're bored or (gasp) your story isn't engaging them. Remember, as with video games, if there isn't something to engage the player, they're going to try to make their own fun. With a bored player, try and find out what's turning them off and working with them? Maybe if you had a quest for that player, with the caveat that they're going to have to interview people for information towards their goal (like finding a familiar or locating the person who has the information to clear the player's name). You could offer a compromise where if they play along till the end of this campaign, you'll be more than willing to run an adventure where the party is a blood thirsty pack of raiders from the UnderDark, and they get to "Rape, Pillage, Murder, and Rape" to their heart's content. And, failing that, just remember that murders garner attention and notoriety. And news of a pack of serial killers in the hood tends move faster, leaving a whole series of angry guards, barred doors, and shuttered shops. in the wake of the preceding news. Bounties and endless waves of bounty hunters dogging their feet at each new location.
There's more, but said daughter wants money for a movie after school, but you get the idea.
We have a sort-of solution for steamrollers/puppet masters in the homebrew rules an old mate has been putting together over the last 20 years. You get to choose from a few traits for each of your characteristics, and one of the traits for Intelligence is called "resourceful". If you have that trait other players are allowed to give you hints and tips when you're stuck and asking for some help. It's not automatically something players take because the other traits all bring their own nice benefits.
Not that it always stops the resident "teleporter" from somehow being where there's a promise of action but it does keep it down.
Awesome vid
Digging the mentat shirt you were sporting. Hilarious!
Great Video Seth! Have you ever had a player that used there character to make everyone uncomfortable at the table? There was a game I was playing in and this guy who shall remain nameless who at every opportunity would try and put his and other peoples character's in weird perverse situations. Or try and do things that everyone at the table agreed that we where not going to do like enslave people in a party of good characters. He displayed some traits like the steamroller but had a little something extra messed up going on!
Thats the kind of player that needs a stern talking to or a boot to the head. I haven't put up with that personally, but I have heard stories.
In my campaign, the party was hired by a merchant named Bothaar to kill a bandit who had been harassing his caravans. One of the characters, Yaromil, was married to Bothaar's daughter. When they returned for their reward, one of the characters, Gornjolf, groped Bothaar's daughter and a fight ensued between the players. Due to a critical fail, Gornjolf accidentally killed one of Bothaar's nearby business partners and was arrested by the local authorities. He then had a trial by combat against a manticore and managed to survive, and now there is a lot of tension between Yaromil and Gornjolf in game and out of character.
Ah yes the infamous Jizard
My worst roleplaying experience involves another player who would, for a while, snap at me at least once each gaming session, to the point that I was sometimes afraid to talk, because I didn't know what would set them off. At one point the person kept trying to talk an evil fanatic out of fighting, even though it was obvious from the first line out of the guy's mouth that he would not be dissuaded. When I heard it I was ready to fight. I prepared to attack... and got stopped be the rage monster who started talking, and talking, and talking. Several times during the talking I was ready to be like: "I've heard enough to know that you cannot be persuaded by reason" and then I was set to start the inevitable fight(inevitable to anyone but the other player that is) only to be interrupted by the other player so they could keep wasting their words. After a while I built up the courage to try to ask the other player as nicely as possible, out of character(while hoping that they wouldn't get angry), how long they were going to keep talking because they'd been doing it for a while now. And of course the thing I was afraid would happen happens: they snap at me. How dare I keep interrupting them! At which point the shouting match begins, because I may not seek out a fight, but I will never back down from one. And then the DM steps in, and takes my side by saying that the fight with the fanatic was not one we could talk our way out of, and that the other player had been talking for 30 minutes in a row, and that they had interrupted ME several times, and that I had only asked them nicely which in no way warranted them biting my head off. I'm glad to say that the fighting stopped right there(apparently having the DM state that they were categorically wrong on EVERY point really took the fight out of them), and the player has since toned down the rage.
Love the Christmas Cthulhu in the background.
Really informative video. I've definitely run across a couple of those. Even when running a pokemon campaign I had a player absolutely lose it and accuse me of cheating because he misread what his move actually did.
Hello sir, as always, I enjoy your videos. I was hoping you might be able to fix the shifting focus of your camera in future videos, I know it's minor, as your words are much more important, but I found it very distracting.
I look forward to your next video!
Happy Holidays!
Great video
Real glad to have seen this video. I have the problem of being the steamroller. Although not as exaggerated, it can be discouraging for other players knowing they may be interrupted. I'll have to work on that.
It takes practice. Mine is the rules master- as a forever GM, when I get to play, I tend to forget I'm not the rules arbiter and automatically assume things are as I'd run them.
Hello I'm a slow burn rage monster, but I'm trying to calm it down and address problems earlier.
'address problems earlier' as in 'shorter fuse'?
Lol nope just tackle any issues earlier when they are small and easier to discuss instead of letting them simmer and build up and then exploding.
Yeah, I actually hulked out on our party's rogue (he constantly fucking rules lawyered against the GM in games & slowed shit down, needled me & what I wanted to do with my character & generally acted like a pest) so when I did light him up, I wish I hadn't.
Just made everybody uncomfortable which sucked.
Nice list, but I have one you missed. The gripper! I once had a player grip about everything! The group wandered into a random dungeon in the underdark and he gripped for 3 game sessions about why would the dungeon be there in the first place. On another occasion the group was attacked by a giant octopus while they were in a row boat just off shore of a deserted island and he gripped the whole time about how this encounter was a total party killer. His gripping eventually ended with the game group dissolving and I haven't had a game group since due to leaving such a bad taste in my mouth. It's been over ten years now.
Not meaning to be a grammar/spelling nazi, but I think you meant gripe/griped/griping :p
Maybe after 10 years you should give it another go, there are also many excellent players out there who can become the best of friends while sharing cool adventures at the table.
Multiklaaas I would like to play again. However, my life circumstances have changed quite considerable which I am unable to change, at the moment.
Elderos5 that's a shame. Hopefully things will take a turn for the better in that regard. If not, there's always relatively easy ways to get the occasional game in from time to time. Roll20 has a lot of one-off pick-up games, for instance.
8:43 damn that's one hell of a dice castle
I've definitely had Puppet Master tendencies and generally try to catch myself before I become too obnoxious. Early on I was telling another player how to run her character and she yelled at me and it caused me to be like "fuck, do I do that alot? I need to start paying attention and nipping that in the bud."
In general I think every player has some shitty habits, but it's important to catch them before ye become a problem at the table and no one wants ye to play anymore.
Kudos to you for taking her criticism to heart!
man this rlly made me internalize that i was a pretty shitty player when i started out last year, combined willfully ignorant and inattentive. i can make excuses like i didn't vibe with the system or whatever but honestly i just feel bad for my old gm now, cuz its not like my antics were unique. anyway since finding ur channel ive gotten a lot more invested in rpg and im making plans to be a gm of my own, and if im invited back to be a player some day ill be sure to be the best player ever this time!! thank u so much for ur videos :]
I think most of us were monsters when we started. My long-time players and I regularly give each other grief over all the crap we used to do.
My husband, may he rest in peace, both introduced me to D&D and caused me to become a DM and was my first and most favorite murder victim. The thing was that we were both introducing new players to D&D. I would let the new player's stupidity bring them within a point or two of death in the game and then his player would try to save them and either succeed through good play or (possibly) die in the attempt. Either way, the lesson was never forgotten and my players both play with me and fear me to this day...I have never had occasion to kill any of them; they have made it by the skin of their teeth. But still, they flat-out panic because one day, I am going to take somebody down.
8:50
That's one epic dice tower
Loved this vid
The work-around for the "willfully ignorant" is online character sheets, and virtual tables, with macros. You can't forget to add your +2 bonus, when it's already factored into the roll.
If you've got a "rage monster", just boot 'em from the group. Don't fudge it. Tell 'em why, and that you don't enjoy having them around.
Great video once again!
But I gotta ask one question: is your camera on auto-focus or something? It keeps jumping around and kinda distracted me at points.
Still, keep up the awesome content!
Yeah, my hand was moving around and sending the camera into a mild seizure.
Love the social contract one, but I just rewatched it, and man, I miss the skits. Any chance of re-doing it with the characters?
I've only even played a couple of times, but I'm definitely guilty of a couple of these things. Great advice! Thanks man!
Ohhh Poor Todd. I don't think I ever saw the ending bit till now, and I genuinely feel for him lmao
Thank you for defining the willfully ignorant player. We have a particular offender of that version. He never knows any of his modifiers or skills at the beginning of the session "Roll for attack" "Yes" stares at dice* "Which one is it?". Later on he get annoyed when people just puppet master him/tell him how his character works cause his turn in combat takes 10+ minutes. To hit something, roll damage and move.
How do you improve this situation? What to say?
The dice thrower, our variant of the Rage Monster. Easily the most annoying.
Followed by our "Willfully Ignorant, There But Not There" combo.
My biggest problem player is "The Comedian". Gaming has always been fun, but when they were young they would goof off, crack jokes and insults, and just be chaotic and silly. Now, even when the gamers have grown up and want to take the games more seriously, they still feel the need to constantly interrupt with jokes, "wouldn't it be funny if..", immature player actions, and other things that disrupt the game or kill the mood. They often get laughs though, so they think it's encouragement, but it's extremely disruptive.
Madkingstow this really is an issue in horror games
Seth looking out for ALL of us DMs @ 9:54, ha!
I'm a month late, but here's one you coulda put in here.
The Omniscient Player
Usually found in new players to tabletop adventure games, this is what happens when a Steam Roller and a Puppet Master come together in one package. They constantly dictate what happens giving the other players no time to enjoy themselves and when their character is not present for something they use the information that they should not know regardless. From personal experience, it gets frustrating as hell when this player while super excited to play starts dictating how everyone else plays. Even more so when they go off to a library to learn some history but then when the rogue goes off to the apothecary to get some special poison for their own personal task, and in the process acquires a plot item, the omniscient player suddenly has an interest in alchemy and needs to have the same, even though there was no prior discussion and know skill points were spent in the skill, going as far as to point out the bottle on the shelf exactly... In all fairness, I was a new DM/GM at the time with only one other campaign under my bet, but it's still annoying.
This has helped me notice some of my own tendencies that I should keep in check. I can be domineering at the table and should dial it back and keep things fun. Bad positioning in combat makes me crazy, but I need to let that go sometimes.
I have another for you. The Derailer. I am a new DM and host a beginners campaign because no one else would. In said campaign I have two veteran players. An average session with them goes like this.
Beginning of the campaign:
"Each of you wakes with a pounding headache in the capital city. The icy cold water used to wake you is second to your hangover."
"My character doesn't drink."
"Okay, your body is bruised and battered from a tavern brawler you got-"
"He's a peaceful monk"
"Okay he's sitting in the ruin of the tavern when-"
"He's a hermit in the woods."
"Okay Veteran Player, how in the hell is character in this?"
"That's your job."
Gritting teeth, "the monk and other veteran player are written a letter asking nicely for them to come and speak with him."
"Awesome."
Has to ask the new players I should be focused on if they were okay with waking up in the drunk tank. They're cool with it and add to it. Going as far as to say they burnt down the tavern in the fight. It was the wizard but the wizard blames the rogue.
"Could I have a bag of holding?" Veteran asks.
"Possibly. If we ever get passed the first paragraph!"
To be fair, you should have asked him about his character., so this is more a DM failure.
Nukestarmaster i did. He never mentioned it.
Nukestarmaster it literally went, "tell me about your character"
"He's a human monk."
Don't forget The Load. The player that is so useless in combat, that they get the party killed or close to it, this isn't the weak character this is the player that does something so inane they make the fight harder the player that leave the room the battle is occuring in and goes agroing a second encounter at the same time, or throws an entangle spell that makes only hinders the partys fighters ability to engage
Like the human cleric taking their turn in combat to pray to their god to make the sun come up, because it was night, and she couldn't see in the dark? Or wasting their combat turn attempting to grapple an enemy, by the balls?
Great stuff.
From what I understand, any group of people given a task to solve will always have an organizational strategist type come to the fore and take over an inordinate amount of the group planning towards that goal. The "puppet master". I imagine it's an evolutionary social thing, and probably helped more when a tribal human group was threatened, hunting, or needed to quickly make decisions as a whole without a bunch of debate slowing down a crisis process. Obviously it's not very good in a casual entertainment environment, where everyone is just trying to enjoy themselves, such as cooperative gaming.
I recognized my penchant for this awhile back, and regularly tell myself to stop butting into other peoples' plans. What's odd is that I don't normally act overbearing, but when it comes to making complex plans it's like a subconscious switch flips on and Mister Robotic Efficiency starts crunching the situation and what needs to be done by everyone. Guessing it's the same for others with Butt-inski tendencies.
The behavior may also have some relation with rules knowledge because I also tend to be the one reading & teaching game rules to others. Gotta know when to step back and let the students loose.
We’ve stopped playing with our resident rage monster. I think it pisses him off more that he has an expensive set of metal dice that roll like garbage he only used once. The game he used them in I got tired of him getting pissy with me and everyone else because he had to be in the middle over every enemy around him so he kept getting splashed with magic damage and refused to learn he didn’t have to kill everything for the group.