So in short: 1. Let others play. 2. Play *your* character. 3. Learn how to play your character. 4. Remember there is a game. 5. Remember it's just a game.
Similar to the Rage Monster is the Depression Monster, or the Eeyore. Instead of going all HULK SMASH and flipping the table, they instead spend the rest of the session in a "what's the point?" mood. They speak in a slow monotone and make comments that drag everyone else down with them, and nobody wants to confront them about it because it'll just send them further into depression or turn them into a Rage Monster.
Sigh... that's me. Usually it's because RPing my current character has revealed a personality flaw i didn't know that I had or just simply kept buried.
As someone who suffers from depression, I can tell you I can't always control that, and I have brought the party down doing it and I felt bad for that as well. I, however, am legitimately someone with depression versus a nihilist who isn't having fun and so sets out to ruin it for everyone else. I am self aware and apologetic, those fucking assholes (and I have dealt with them too as a DM) are just unhappy with the game and taking it out on you. And it fucking sucks.
I've done that once, but like CryingBuddha I've also got diagnosed clinical depression and I really didn't respond well to our party being railroaded into slavery. After suffering through multiple assaults IRL I struggle a bit with powerlessness/helplessness and went into a funk for about half and hour.
I had a couple players like this. The first had lots of self esteem issues and through giving him lots of encouragement and showing him that his character was really awesome. The second was tired of gaming and just not excited about anything. He eventually stopped playing.
You forgot to mention that player who invites other players to your table without permission. My first and only 5e campaign fell apart because one guy, in my group of 7 players, brought a guy who felt that, because be was invited, he could then invite more people. Showed up at the hobby shop and found 23 people waiting for me.
Ouch. I've had a player ask permission for his college friends to visit and watch, and that was fine, because they remained respectful and silent (and very observant.) It was sincerely flattering, and I was sure to thank them afterwards. I invited them as guest players for the next session and they had an absolute blast. It was a memorable night!
I have one more for you that I struggled with. "The ego player" A player that wants everything to shine their ego, they always want to be the best, the strongest, the most awesome out of the group and in doing so they oppress everyone including the game master cause if at any point they are not the coolest thing around that ruins their enjoyment and they will make sure to let everyone know that. They basically want to be the epic main character.
And it's worse when the player wants to be the best human being in the room out of game too. You bring a set of new dice - he comes next week with 7 new sets of (very expensive) dice. You bring some snacks and drinks to share - next week he cooks a full meal, brings plates and silverware and cracks open expensive bottles of liquor. You have a little plastic folder to hold your character sheet, notes, and maps - he gets a top of the line executive binder with all his sheets laminated. It's bad enough that a person feels he has to do that, but he also has to point it out and mention it often, so we have no choice but to pointedly notice and talk about it.
I am dealing with that kind of player. He is making his character ridiculous and being condescending. My character wants to acquire a decent amount of mithral ingots or ore to try to make some interesting things because my character is an inventive person and wanted to try out some of the interesting things from a construct manual. The other player basically starts saying there is no way my character can afford any mithral ingots or ore even though I have like 3k gold.
Used to play with A DMPC just like this. He insisted on playing the greatest rogue ever while also being the DM in his own home brew world. That campaign did not last long
I played with two brothers that had been playing together forever. One brother was the DM the other brother was a 1/2 minotaur 1/2 dragon born celestial monk. Every time we got a chest the brother got "the flaming sword of holy life!" And the rest of the party got old leather boots and a rusty dagger. It was fun stuff.
Oh yes, a favorite. If there's a problem his character can't solve - but another one can - he'll sulk until the GM throws him something where he can shine. Yes, I understand wanting your character to actually be useful, but others should get to be useful too.
One player that bothers me is the player that argues the dm is wrong for far to long, or tries to persuade the dm that they should have advantage, or the enemy should be surprised. I can understand making a case for some stuff but there is a point where when the DM says No you did not surprise the bartender you wanted to kidnap because he walked out with 4 guards and had multiple armed patrons firing out at you with muskets and youre plan revolved around him being an oblivious idiot who wouldn't be at all suspicious of a 7 foot tall Lizard saying "Hey, you wanna come meet my friends....". Sorry I'm venting.
Hahaha. This is true. I have no idea what I'd call that type of player, but I know exactly what you're talking about. And no worries about venting. Hell, every RPG Philosophy video I do is just lists of me venting.
I, as DM, once entertained a 3 week e-mail discussion about how 5e scorching ray worked w/one player who wanted it to do more than (the eventual errata agreed) it should. I feel your pain.
Player 2 seems to have become the main character of most of the skits, with players 1 and 3 acting as supporting cast. So whatever the topic, player 2 is almost always the example.
The player that tells the GM that he's augmenting reality. "I'm rolling my attack, and I'm gonna go ahead and give myself a +2 because the enemy hasn't moved yet." "I'm rolling perception. All the normal bonuses... Plus the +2 the current lighting gives me..." That kind of gets to me. I can be pretty lenient, but when I'm *told* that the player is doing their own homebrew to bloat their own rolls is a p/o.
lutin grognon Except the bonuses were non existent rules wise. "Are we flanking? I get +2 if we're flanking." Is different than: "I'm adding an extra +2 because the winds are favorable and guiding my sword."
I'm all for players trying to be creative with the mechanics but there's a difference between, "With all this lightning lighting up the area, would that give me a bonus?" and "With all the lightning in the area I get a +2 to my perception"
lutin grognon I agree if the players are continually doing this without asking the GMs permission then I feel the GM has every right to punish the character (if the player won't listen obviously)
I've got a couple of my own. The Combat Guy: He's only there for the combat, and can't be bothered to join in with the role playing or general merry-making. In particular, I have one player that will stay silent in 95% of dialogue, unless he is spoken to first. It's not a character trait, it's a player trait. Example: My players had been traveling for a couple days, and happened onto a town of former thieves guild members. My other 4 players begin talking to locals, buying and selling supplies and goods, and one of them got a curse lifted. When it gets to his turn, he just tells me he wants to see the armorer or blacksmith. When he gets there, I try to instigate some roll play. "Top o' the mornin' to ya! Anything I can do ta help, or are ye just gonna talk me ear off? HAHA!" He looks me dead in the eye and says, "I want 3 daggers, one short bow, and 30 arrows.", then makes the motion of dropping a sack of coins in front of me. Now, I try to include everyone, and make it fun for them, and I knew he was all about the fighting and numbers. That's why I try to get at least one encounter in every game. Most of my other players say they don't mind if there's no fighting in a session, but I know he wouldn't be satisfied if there wasn't at least one bout of combat. Also players that don't know the basic mechanics of what you can do in a turn of initiative get on my nerves, but they're generally genuine about not remembering. "Sorry, but you can't move 60 feet, swing off a rope, throw 3 daggers at 3 enemies in mid air, then stab a 4th one when you land without them making an attack of opportunity." "Why not?" "Because you're bound, gagged, and surrounded."
I once made a character with a 1,5 page of backstory the dm could use to mine plot hooks. He had a very defined personality abd I liked playing him. But instead the dm probably didn't even read my backstory, and railroaded us into whatever story He wanted. After that I made a dumb barbarian that only cares about fighting and almsot never speaks. Most gm's have a stick so far up their asses they don't realize that some bad players / characters are like this because of bad previous experience.
The opposite is also true. I have two players in my group who like to avoid combat and danger. It's like they are afraid of dying because of a bad die roll or something. They try to solve every encounter by talking, which is fine if you like roleplay but I think that if you are supposed to be an adventurer, you should be willing to risk your life sometimes.
Sometimes I am a snowflake player, but I always ask if it fits into the world, and I am not messing with the dm or another player .so why cant I play a psionic Drider if it is an option?
Look, you can do that, but have less fun by having no relation to what is already established as going on in the game. I am planning to host Princes of the Apocalypse, but I am limiting my players to picking class archetypes that revolve around elemental power. "OH WOW HOW COULD YOU DO THAT MEANIE ABLOOBLOO-" Let me explain. It's more fun for myself and others playing to have relation to the world around them. It enriches the game through deepened lore, inter-party relations, and narrative. Playing as a psychic spider drow has virtually no link to what I'm trying to do as DM. Now, that MAY work in that Abyss Underdark module where Drow are heavily present, but part of the fun of the game is building what feels like a realistic world that involves the party. Let's say you wanted to play Drider in PotA anyway. Well, let's see...the Monster Manual basically says you're an outcast so you'd realistically be an exiled noble. Many special snowflake character ideas I've come across are done strictly for their own character without relation to the game setting. It becomes a selfish player's fantasy character and they only focus on their own character which frankly is toxic, anti-social nonsense that can kill narrative and party-world enthusiasm. Another thing: I'm the DM. I will say "no" the most during session 0 and character creation, but that's only because I want us all to know what to expect going into it as well as giving the players a chance to create tangible character bonds in the game world, which in all my experiences leads to more fun.
most games i play or run were a group of misfits ,we have a evil campain with a yanti noble a kenku assasin and me a changling ranger our only link is the noble paying me and the kenku or my game running stratd ( zombie genasi barbarian and half-elf storm sorcerer there only link is they hate stratd , in your campaign i would probably play my barbarian noble genasi of the storm 9son of an elfreeti sultan but i would complain that we only can choose an archtype
We once had a player that was a rage-monster and a there not there. He'd pay absolutely no attention or distract other players but as soon as he took a hit, the salt spewed forth. It was so odd. He also had this bizarre habit of rolling the nearest die to hand whenever he had to roll, regardless of how many sides it had. Then, after we quietly sat down and explained why we were kicking him from our group, he never spoke to us again. Like we were friends before that, we just said that we'd rather not play D&D with him.
Stinks to lose a friend over that, but sounds like booting him from the group needed to be done. It's stories like this that make me glad I create my groups via Reddit and game shop posters. It's much easier to kick a stranger from a group than a friend. And once those strangers stick around for a year or two, many of them become friends.
as a gm, players who never learn how the basic mechanics of them game work infuriate me to no end. once had a player who was a hanger on for about a year, only ever played barebones sword and board fighters and yet never bothered to learn that you don't use a d8 for attack rolls.
i think that can be interesting as long as the character itself is cool. had a player put a 7 in their rogue's dex and she played it as the rogue being more of a thuggish person who was the muscle for a crime boss, it worked out well
Comrade Yui yes that works. I have played with an 8 int. wizard who played it as a jock bladesinger. There are ways to make it work, but I mean the person who makes a tiefling druid and doesn't use anything from the tiefling, and combines the issue you were talking about where she just writes whatever spells sound cool and doesn't know what they do.
That drives me nuts, too. I had a player who flaked out a lot, and then wouldnt pay attention when they showed up. About two months into the campaign I called for a Vigor roll (Savage Worlds) and was met with "I dont know what that is!". It took all my willpower not to explode.
Now that's just sad. I would tell them to read Basic Rules, linking them to the PDF since the full PHB would be too hard. Being willfully ignorant? Well then I'm only teaching you about the basics.
Even worse when that player interrupts the DM while the DM is answering another player's question. This has happened so often in my game that most of the players, even after 5 sessions, don't understand the rules because backseat DM is mixing up 4th and 5th edition rules for our 3.5 campaign. Not only do I have to keep correcting his misinformation, but when I do make a ruling in the game that he doesn't like he shrugs and sarcastically says, "Well, I guess the rules are different in every edition."
I freely admit that I fell asleep during an all night campaign. The rest of the party went down into a cavern, and I held the rope so they could climb down. The GM happened ro see me rouse and come to, and asked what I was doing. I said I'm holding the rope. That became a trope for anyone not paying attention to the game. He's holding the rope.
If you ever make an updated list, I believe you should include the "Pointless Serial Killer" to the list. I'm talking about players who create evil characters, or even neutral characters, and will kill off any NPC that even remotely disagrees with them. I've been in situations were characters have stabbed important plotline NPCs over disputes as simple as reserving personal information. It very often doesn't make sense with the character they are running, nor does it make realistic sense, as there are few beleiveable characters that are willing to murder any individual for any slight.
Sound like another name for "Murder Hobo": www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=murderhobo I will say that they are fairly easy to deal with, at least from GM perspective: Simply do not play any RPG that creates them! (That is the entire D&D series and similar systems) As it is usually the same systems deprived by the crappy alignment system.
I disagree, you find them in any RPG system that has combat. It's usually more like the player letting their id run wild. Given the freedom to do whatever, they lash out at an in-game obstacle because they don't think about the consequences. Its sort of like playing any open-world sandbox video game (Elder Scrolls, GTA, etc) You tend to go on a rampage from time to time. The difference is that at the table, these players dont realize it negatively impacts the rest of the party. Usually they just need a "chill out" talking to.
The Pointless Serial Killer, The Pointless Kleptomaniac... I've played a fair bit of LN and CN characters, though I despise CEs and CGs who falsely advertise themselves as good. CNs are okay, so long as it makes sense in character(my Red Taninim(Dragon PC) comes into mind) but not an excuse to be non-chalant about everything. I get it, Chaotics can get to be dickwads to both NPCs and other PCs alike, it's just when it gets in the way of moving the game forward. This can be also conversely applied to any alignment really.
@@dracmeister I personally approach chaotic's as just being selfish. Having a bit of a I'm a bit more important than the rest of you type. What I mean is that push comes to shove they will put their own goals or self preservation first depending on the other half of their alignment. But never as a brooding, lashes out at everything that they precive as looking at them funny. I been playing a chaotic Neutral bard-warlock and only once did she ever lash out at a npc in anger and that was during our groups play through of Curse of Strahd as we all were in Van Richton's tower where she found his journal and read some entries learning that he had killed a few Vistani, including my charecters late wife for no obvious provocation. My charecter was adopted into the Vistani so she leaped on him and was choking him all while asking him why, the party got her to stop and he explained his reasoning and she read him the riot act saying that he was no better as the ones he killed weren't the ones who wronged him and so on and that the only reason why she won't kill him wasn't because madam Eva said that he is the one who will help her friends defeat Strahd but so he will live what little time he has knowing that a Vistania was the better person than he ever could be. It made things tense for the group as they were always worried that him and her were going to kill each other eventually but they eventually talked it out and got a little respect for each other even with both helping save the other at different points in the final push through castle Ravenloft. But yeah I don't ever see Chaotic whatever as meaning chaotic asshat unless you are playing a Villian.
you know, I revisit these rpg philosophy vids a lot and I'm always impressed at how much they apply to just a social life in general. Earlier today I was reminded that a particular family member of mine has a tendency to be a rage monster of the "bottle it up variety". They do not play RPGs at all. But they are someone I tend to avoid driving with or I try to keep any errands/public social visits on the briefer end because I know it's only a matter of time till they blow. On a more lighthearted note (and I guess more to the point), these videos have helped me more than at the table, they've helped me make going through just about any day easier and more fun, or at least made it easier to spot where problems start. Thanks Seth, life would be so much worse without you.
#6: The Hostage Taker. "I host the games so I decide if and when we play, I don't care what everyone else considers important! If you argue with me, no one gets to play and I decide that a game that I don't even run is completely over!" Just had a group fall apart where one person did that, his girlfriend followed along because he constantly controls her, and the other guy is a coward when it comes to conflict.
Flavor of the Weekers. I had a guy who was a solid all arounder till a new source book dropped that featured a new Clan, class, or Powersets. Then he would drop his character for a new one. Fashion Victims. these guys are mostly a LARP thing. They show up in full costume even if they don't have too. And trust me comfortable shoes are a very necessary piece of LARP gear.
Jeez, the one game I participate in I play with some of my best friends (known these people for years) and the DM is likewise, everybody's friend as well. He's a phenomenal guy and a damm good/inventive DM especially for this being 1st role-playing game. However, anyone who seems remotely interested in the game he wants to participate because he wants everyone to be included and have fun but that lead him to including his girlfriend in the game. She's not an overtly bad person but she is bad players #2 & #3. She's never involved and never pays attention so as a result she never knows anything. (We only play once a month now as well because she is the only player who hates long sessions, so the compromise our DM came up with this we only play one long session a month, thanks) We would kick her out if we could, but she is his gf and despite how she acts at the table she always acts like she loves d&d whenever she's with the DM. (they live together). Update: She is becoming slightly more involved with her character, which is good, but now she treats her character as a total joke. Humor is fine, damm near encouraged every now and then at the table, (I'm a bard for fuck's sake) but not if it defines your whole character Because we still take the game seriously as a whole. I'm mainly posting this to get it off my chest. They really is nothing we can do, Because let's face it, the DM will always have a bias towards his gf. Thanks for reading if anyone did.
Sirius Mann, Monk 4 (Way of the Drunken Master) Backstory: An unserious man walked out of his home and stubbed his toe. An unserious man fell into a deep melancholy, and became, A Depressed Man. A Depressed Man found an ancient monastery, and trained relentlessly to forget, the shame and embarrassment of, stubbing his toe. A disciplined man told a Depressed Man that he needed discipline, and focus, if he ever hoped to become, a serious man. In that moment, a depressed man, chose to become, a serious man. A Serious Man, has since, always been a, serious man. A serious man has wandered the world, seeking to become, a heroic man. When a serious man, has become, a heroic man, a heroic man will return to his village, where a heroic man, will have the will and strength to endure, the shame and embarrassment of, stubbing his toe. A serious man must deal with every situation, seriously. If a serious man, was not to hand every situation seriously, he could not become, a heroic man.
Go out of your way to encourage her. It’s hard getting into rpg’s. Especially so for a lot of women trying to break in to what’s a bit of a “boys club”. The way to handle these players as a GM or another player is to engage them, whatever it takes, so that they can become comfortable and learn good habits and attitudes (hopefully) from the other, more experienced players. Every now and then, make the session “The [Insert Name Here] Show” (which I feel is good idea for every PC). Foster her love of the art! Role playing has a lot of positive emotional and creative value and can make definite impacts in people’s lives if the “group” has a positive attitude. There is real value here, and it should be spread. :D rant ended
Ugh. Had a GM bring his girlfriend to the game and it didn't work out at all. She was obviously disinterested, knew nothing to the point where he had to play her character, and got crabby and fell asleep at the table after an hour or two, which became an escalating source of distress for the GM until the session simply couldn't go on anymore. I still have absolutely no idea why she kept joining us. I mean, she was part of the friends group, so not an outsider, and she was into games; but she clearly wasn't into DND and wasn't having any fun at all beyond the initial "hang-out" portion of any gaming session. Nothing against girlfriends gaming. As a GM, I started a campaign with my girlfriend as a player. However, it wasn't her first campaign and she really wanted to be there. She contributed and we all had fun. Didn't stop one of the players from treating her like the "GM's girlfriend", but that's on him.
It's difficult, but people should comfortable and confident enough to communicate and stand up to one another (respectfully) before playing D&D together. It's not The Witcher, Red Dead or Zelda, where you do as you please, when you please, because you're on your own. In D&D we have to compromise & cooperate to drive the fun ourselves, together. Involving a (live-in) significant other is a serious decision that should be weighed against their seriousness, manners and the group dynamics.
Once had a new player come in mid-campaign who insisted on having headphones on to listen to Weird Al while we were playing our D&D game. He was actually mumbling the lyrics to White and Nerdy to himself. Wasn't paying attention to the game at all, but his eyes just screamed "I'm looking for peer approval this way". I wanted to throw him out the nearest window.
Thanks Seth! Reminds me of Matt Colville's video on a similar topic, but definitely adds to that discussion. I was wondering if you might do a follow up on how to deal with these bad player archetypes?
Dealing with distracted players is one of the big issues I tend to face, its gotten better over time but in high school, when our smartphones and other mobile devices were a bit newer it was a lot worse.
Dustin Deckert yeah there is one player in our group that is an absolute type 2. I do sympathize because he has bad adhd and everyone else decided to have initiative outside of combat, (which means waiting 10-20 mins, for your turn) but he constantly plays loud videos on his phone, and doesnt even read the fucking group chat most of the time, which has lead to me not being able to finish a three shot I was running. He never seems to care
Alan Brockhaus we used to institute a total no phones rule, but for us anyway a good amount of us have reference materials on our phone, but I would suggest talking to him and trying to get things sorted out. Maybe he should have a fidget cube or something, I have add myself and I find it hand to have something quiet I can mess with during games, it helps me focus by keeping my hands busy. It won't work for everyone but it's worth a shot. At the end of the day if things don't work out then they don't, but at least you can say you tried.Yeah
Dustin Deckert I don't know if he has tried a fidget cube before. It might be because he is prescribed an unhealthy amount of adhd meds (it is very bad) and we only see him off if it during our gaming session. The DM has said multiple times to get off the phone. I do also have a tendency to want to be on my phone, but I try to resist it and I only play games that don't require thought. such as subway surfer or flow free. my biggest issue is his inability to read the group chat, and he is oblivious to why I am upset about it.
I've had a similar issue with one friend, in general he has had issues in the past with scheduling and texting or messaging back, and well he got better on his own. I'm not really sure what advice to give, but I hope that things work out for the best. As for a fidget cube, I've seen them at Walmart and my local game store for around 5 or 6 dollars. And fidget toys are pretty common now after the spinner craze so it could be worth a shot but who really knows?
Dustin Deckert we have 2 of these people in our play group one is really really new to tabletop the other is our GM but only when he gets to be a player when he GMs hes on point give him a char sheet and hes off to the races with jis game boy or something
So, I've been watching these videos for a few days (just found your channel) and I caught myself actually thinking of the various players in your skits as different individuals. Kudos to your acting!
Real glad to have seen this video. I have the problem of being the steamroller. Although not as exaggerated, it can be discouraging for other players knowing they may be interrupted. I'll have to work on that.
It takes practice. Mine is the rules master- as a forever GM, when I get to play, I tend to forget I'm not the rules arbiter and automatically assume things are as I'd run them.
This is the first video I've seen of yours, fantastic content, definitely subscribed. As an aside, I can't help but think it must be absolute hell dusting those shelves with all the minis on them.
I think about tge dusting thing alot. Im pretty poor so I have basically nothing on my shelves and theyre already difficult to clean, cant even wrap my head around cleaning a mini shelf display
birbfanchannel tighto I have one Warhammer mini on my shelf that collects and shows dust like no other. That many minis must look like Santa's village after a week or two
Glad you're enjoying my little channel. The game reviews are my bigger passion. My personal favorites are Paladin Dice and the Paranoia review (which my creator enjoyment is probably way different than regular viewer enjoyment). As for the shelves, I just try not to look at them. Every so often I bust out the canned air and blast all the dust out of the little nooks and crannies in the miniatures. The bulk of my minis are safely away in cases, but for those too large to fit in a case, they live on the shelves beneath a protective layer of dust.
man this rlly made me internalize that i was a pretty shitty player when i started out last year, combined willfully ignorant and inattentive. i can make excuses like i didn't vibe with the system or whatever but honestly i just feel bad for my old gm now, cuz its not like my antics were unique. anyway since finding ur channel ive gotten a lot more invested in rpg and im making plans to be a gm of my own, and if im invited back to be a player some day ill be sure to be the best player ever this time!! thank u so much for ur videos :]
My biggest problem player is "The Comedian". Gaming has always been fun, but when they were young they would goof off, crack jokes and insults, and just be chaotic and silly. Now, even when the gamers have grown up and want to take the games more seriously, they still feel the need to constantly interrupt with jokes, "wouldn't it be funny if..", immature player actions, and other things that disrupt the game or kill the mood. They often get laughs though, so they think it's encouragement, but it's extremely disruptive.
I have to give you props on your insight. I'm a new player, but I kinda know how things work and I have some common sense when it comes to gaming and stuff. I appreciate how your information and explanation is not just fantasy dnd but even sci-fi. Keep doin what you're doing man
Got a horror story of a bad player. He's 4 of those player types rolled into one. At level 4, before an encounter with a giant lake monster, he kept saying it was an aboleth. I asked him how he'd know and "Rogue Training" was his best answer. When it wasn't an aboleth, I 'swerved' him. The party encountered a behir, he refused to believe that the monster is in the Monster manual in 5e. While combat was still going on, he asked to see the monster manual.
Incredible. You should have kicked him out right then and there. Even if you had made a new monster up on the spot, so what! Your game, your rules. As long as you don't (obviously) railroad the players and keep it reasonably fair, anything goes. He should have just thanked you and been happy to be part of the session. Some People act so annoyingly entitled...
Roland P. To play devil's advocate, that player may have been under the impression that they were playing a more typical game of D&D without homebrew (as homebrewed monsters can be as unfair as homebrew races, classes, and spells) and could rightly be concerned. My response to the accusation would have been to breiflt show the image of the creature (I often show an image when first describing a new monster) and freely show the player the name of the creature with your hand over the stat block. Regarding the it's an Aboleth incident, how I would have dealt with your player is first have that character roll a DC 20 to 25 (Hard to Very hard) History check to see if they've every actually heard about this creature.
Zero The Crow He did see the image of the behir in the monster manual. After showing the image he asked for my book as combat was still going on. In a bit of detail. Here's the dialog. "You encounter a blue serpentine beast with many limbs." "There's nothing like that in the monster manual!" "Yes there is, roll initiative" A few players get a turn in, I do a breath attack. "it has a breath attack!? This has to be in volos or an older edition" "it's not" I show him the page with the behir art on it just showing the creature. A combat round ends. "While x decides on a spell, can I read the monster manual?" "No" Que the bickering.
dreamakuma Yea, it sounds like your player may not fully understand that they don't need to see the monster stats because unlike some games that's not freely given player information. Now, if the character is now inspired to learn about these monsters should they come across them again you can open that path for them this mechanically giving them information such as lore or facts about their stats (example: you learn that it has a though hide like [other creature with same AC] or give that information it has an AC of X. This is the main approach I recommend for players who play characters who want to learn things like this, sometimes I've given small temporary boons such as the monster needs to role 1 higher or the character needs to roll 1 less to hit to reflect this study with the simple caveat that the player can only have on research boon at a time and the information needs to be studyied regularly to really provide a tangible boon. If the player is just curious about the monster lore and such (& you're not planning on using it again anythine soon) you could let the player read it, just not during combat with it obviously. I both DM and play PCs so I own my own MM but just know not to use it to meta an encounter, in fact I often ignore things I know unless my PC passes knowledge checks.
Zero The Crow I'm all for showing behind the screen once the dice are put up. This player is combative and wants to win regardless. The thing that got him kicked was just terrible. I ran I6: Castle Ravenloft. He read the adventure ahead of time and killed off NPC's without any provocation, and started spoiling surprises about Strahd.
As always, an insightful video. Very much enjoyed it! Running off of this idea, could you also make a "Five Best Tabletop Players"? I've seen a lot of "Worst of..." videos, not a lot of the opposite. I think it could be a good guide for everyone equally what it looks like to be welcomed and appreciated at the table; giving it 100% while making it look as though you're giving 120%.
@@arlaxazure486 Well, I suppose you'd have to first find someone to give you one. After someone gave you a fuck, you could study it to find out the best way to shut it up. That is, if it really needed shutting up.
You may have to delay your game for a little bit before starting your story. Make a list of the things that you observe happening and how it distracts you from running the game effectively. Don't single out but calmly have a discussion about how to stop the bad gaming table behavior. Are they there at the game to play or is this just a social exercise. Find out what is keeping them from being committed to the game for the 4-5 hrs it takes. Offer a 5-10 break every so often but insist that when they are back, there is an expectation for them to be fully involved. Penalties for breaking the rules might be docking xp or if it continues to be and issue just not running the game for them and finding other players willing to show you the respect you need to run stories. If they are young players you might have to give them more leeway but if they are adults expect them to behave like adults.
It is a social exercise, but there is also a social contract. Here are a few tips. Start each game night with a BS session. Let everyone catch up, talk, get their stuff out, snacks, set up, and blow off the steam. Talk to the group before hand about constraints. And enforce delimiters. Take planned breaks that the group expects. IE- my group knows we play approximately 3 hours. I start by letting them BS, I BS too... we talk about spent XP, things they need, whatever, then I start my background music and go "alright, where did we leave off?" And go around the table, letting them recap exactly where we paused. I then re-set the scene with my flowery language. We have a break about halfway through, if anyone needs it. And when we near our 3 hour mark, I find a stopping point / cliff hanger. And end with a session ending, "what did we learn?" As they pack up their stuff. It helps to bookend your play, in a known, expected way. Its like clocking in / out of work.
My first time DMing, I had one player who was a passive-aggressive rage monster. Eventually, so much tension and resentment built up in the room because of this one player that a shouting match erupted and the session ended early. That was not a fun experience.
Hey! I’m a new subscriber, under a week, and I’ve watched a ton of your videos. The comedy is great and the content informative, keep up the great work man!
The "I'm Just Playing In Character Used as a Justification for Disruptive Behavior" The "I Can't Bother to Engage With the Story So I'm Going Off In Whatever Direction" The Flake
Thanks for making this video! A lot of people will complain about "Top 5" lists (for valid reasons sometimes) but this one manages to point out some of the more egregious examples of unfortunate player encounters one might have to deal with, something I've managed to have the misfortune of meeting a few too many times (or, at times, been myself, regrettably).
I did a bit of steamroller stuff in my early days, always wanting to talk to everybody, but I think starting to DM myself helped me put a lot of energy into that.
Hi Seth, I love your videos. Actually, I'm about to play as a keeper for The Haunting (via the quickstart) as my first experience with Call of Cthulhu because I've loved your reviews so much. However, my group and I are somewhat used to D&D and the way CoC handles money and gear is very confusing to us who are normally playing gold-hungry adventurers. I was wondering if you have any tips or advice for handling 7e CoC gear, weapons and money?
Awesome. Hope you and your players love it. Switching over from a game that is all about getting the loot to one that isn't is a bit weird at first. Ain't gonna lie. Best thing to do is to be upfront with them that CoC isn't about the money, or at least isn't about the small expenses. It might take a few games for then (and you) to get used to it, and I even pump up the money reward in many adventures just because all of us like having that sweet, sweet imaginary wealth. So, how it works is the players buy their Credit Rating as they would any other skill. Whatever bracket they fall into determines their money including daily expenses. Average income has a daily allowance of $10. Remember that's $10 in 1920's dollars, which is like $130 in today's money. Characters can't save this. Use it or lose it. If they go shopping, they can spend up to $10 without having to make any bookkeeping notes on their sheet. If they spend more, the ENTIRE amount comes out of their Available Cash. That daily amount will likely go toward little things like meals, hotels, cab-fare, etc. Then there's Assets. Assets are non-liquid money (or it can be, such as money in the bank) but usually its invested in something such as a house, furniture, a car, neato antiques, etc. So if your PC has, let's say, $15,000 in assets, you can say that it's made of a $8,000 house, a $600 car, $1000 in furnishings, and the remaining $5,400 is money in the bank or invested in the Stock Market, or maybe their business. Make sense? Now, if you and your players dig The Haunting, and you want to try more CoC, you might want to check out Doors to Darkness. It's designed for new Keepers and Players. The first adventure, The Darkness Beneath the Hill, is a dungeon-crawl, and your D&D veterans might enjoy that.
Seth Skorkowsky Wow, thanks for such a detailed response. This makes a lot more sense now. I remember looking at credit rating and thinking “but what does it mean? I understand living expenses but how does it affect pcs in game?” So really, thank you for clearing that up.
In addition to what Seth said, you may also consider "The Edge of Darkness" from CoC 6th Ed Core. I've used it to start every campaign with new people, and Seth already reviewed it! Other than the rather excellent Doors to Darkness, I recommend Mansions of Madness and the Curse of Cthulhu (ignore the Day of the Beast campaign until Seth or someone gives some advice. Its not new Keeper friendly.). My favorite from Curse, for instance, is directly based off of an HPL story (just make sure to keep players in the dark about that). ;)
Man i remember several games I've been in before where there was just that guy, once, he was the GM (I hate that guy). The biggest player, was actually a friends of mine, and the DM's brother (Not the GM i hate). We were in a high power campaign, and started out with only 3 guys, so we each made 2 people to play (we later got 2 more players, and took a lot of balancing) This guy would basically stop games for hours at a time just so he can have the most out of the rules or some rules lawyering, but not only that, would stop games to correct you if anyone else tried to optimize or do the same. The bad GM was basically the worst i've ever had. Steamrolled, puppeteered, deus ex machina, punished players he didnt like in game, terrible story, no room for character development, and would make up rules on the fly and refused to look them up when he was wrong (I get house rules and all, but there are a few things that are just basics of the game, and house rules should be mentioned in advance). For example, he started a days long argument with me, because i said that bastard swords are two handed and martial weapons, but one handed as exotic. Like I wasn't even upset about it, but he refused to be cool about it, and basically targeted me with all his bullying bullshit (most likely because I was a DM for my friend's other games and I actually knew the rules. My buddy even confirmed thats why he was mean to me after I left) To clarify, I would never stop game or anything. I would simply ask for a minute to ask whether or not this was the case, or to make sure what he said was correct, because it contradicted what I knew to be right, but I never outright called him wrong. In the end, I had my character commit suicide and rode my bike home in the rain, because fuck him.
Hey man. I've gotta say, I am loving your videos. I've seen a few videos from other people about rpgs, but they've never held my attention like yours do. Just subscribed and I'm gonna start binging your videos on my lunch breaks. Keep up the good work.
Excellent video as always. Personally, I'm terrified of the idea of being a Puppetmaster, to the point where I'm hesitant to offer advice to another player on how to make their character function better mechanically. I hate the thought that I might be influencing people to change their character, even if it's something that has little impact on who their character actually is, like wielding a glaive instead of dual-wielding scimitars (two attacks from a range where someone would have to move in to hit you is safer than 3 attacks in melee range, and while hitting three times at d6 might have a higher minimum and average damage than twice at d10, it's worth it to have fewer attack rolls and a higher maximum damage).
Oh! Do not be terrified... See it this way instead: You have identified the problem, now deal with it! As the saying goes: "A good start is half the battle.".
I feel like the advice you just mentioned here was actually helpful and could benefit the game! I don't think that's Puppetmaster behavior as long as you let them make their own decision in the end!
And if it's their first couple of characters, don't sweat it. After that, if they're having problems, ask them what they are looking for: are they trying to make a Legolas or an Aragorn. Don't go for the best damage or AC.
Hello Mr. S! Will you pan over your bookcase someday on a vid? Looks like you have some treasures there. Thanks for all your content! Keep up the good works!
I relate to being the steamroller. I was playing my first D&D session and I was really excited, and this lead to me trying always to be in the action, even if it was a backstory moment for another character. After watching this video I realize my mistakes, and since we all died and we're making new characters I'm going to try to calm down a bit.
Another great video Seth! Sadly, the There But Not There describes my whole group. I'm pretty new but when I was GM, I was constantly being interrupted by someone showing a video or telling a bad joke. The worst time was when every one of my players was playing Hearthstone as I was trying to run the game.
A couple for me is the munchkin, the player who always min-maxes their character to the extreme level and constantly strives for the absolute most powerful gear, and the other is the deadbeat player, the player that never even supplies the bare basics for themselves they never have any dice or paper or books or pencils nor do they ever supply snacks or drinks for the group, I can understand and forgive that sometimes people forget their things, but for someone to never anything hurts the group as a whole, I understand that each player should have extra dice , pencils, etc because you never know what happens when life happens.
The only time munchkins are allowed is when that's the point. Aka the min-max hell pathfinder game I'm playing where its just a ridiculously difficult dungeon crawl where you just min-max the fuck out of a character and level in 2 classes at once, for all the bonuses like BAB, CMB, CMD, and skill points are just of the higher class, you get both class skills, both class' proficiencies, both class' abilities, it's fun as fuck. And I'm a huge fan of heavy RP, but sometimes if the point of a game is to number-crunch, and you know that's what you're getting into, that's what you're getting into and it's so much fun. But min-max hell is the only place where munchkins are allowed
I know this is an old video, but I wanted to say thank you. I've watched a bunch of videos and I really like them. They're good entertainment even in and of themselves.
I've definitely had Puppet Master tendencies and generally try to catch myself before I become too obnoxious. Early on I was telling another player how to run her character and she yelled at me and it caused me to be like "fuck, do I do that alot? I need to start paying attention and nipping that in the bud." In general I think every player has some shitty habits, but it's important to catch them before ye become a problem at the table and no one wants ye to play anymore.
I would also add to the list “Self-appointed Co-GM.” This player takes it upon themselves to answer every question directed at the GM. This is particularly bad with players who know the system well and it’s a rules question asked to the GM.
Nezzeraj I have someone like this in my group because I'm newer to the system (PTU) and also I like to alter rules on the fly if it's hampering the fun. This guy always answers people when they are trying to ask me something, which I don't mind sometimes because I'm newer to the system, but when I alter a rule and tell my players he will become somewhat of a rules lawyer and argue with me about the change.
I'm very guilty of this. I play with a lot of newer GM's and people who are willfully ignorant. They want to run a very broken homebrew, and when I'm a player it gets very frustrating having my entire class "re-written" because of GM fiat (aka "I dont know the rule for it, so the answer is no").
Milo M I don't think I've ever been that GM but I had one who kept asking me not to do something because he wasn't too confident with the rules. As I said my gm style is "as long as it doesn't break the game or ruin it for anyone else then just go ahead"
That sounds a bit frustrating but overall fair. We rotate GM's in my group and two of them just detest reading rulebooks and won't do it. They'd rather just use the knowledge they remember from being a player to run campaigns and then homebrew the rest. This ultimately leads to them completely ignoring certain classes or not balancing the game at all. I'm a game design student so this drives me bonkers.
I used to be the worst kind of rules lawyer, but I learned to reign it in when it was somebody else's game. What I do now is generally keep quiet unless I'm asked by the GM about how a rule works.
My worst roleplaying experience involves another player who would, for a while, snap at me at least once each gaming session, to the point that I was sometimes afraid to talk, because I didn't know what would set them off. At one point the person kept trying to talk an evil fanatic out of fighting, even though it was obvious from the first line out of the guy's mouth that he would not be dissuaded. When I heard it I was ready to fight. I prepared to attack... and got stopped be the rage monster who started talking, and talking, and talking. Several times during the talking I was ready to be like: "I've heard enough to know that you cannot be persuaded by reason" and then I was set to start the inevitable fight(inevitable to anyone but the other player that is) only to be interrupted by the other player so they could keep wasting their words. After a while I built up the courage to try to ask the other player as nicely as possible, out of character(while hoping that they wouldn't get angry), how long they were going to keep talking because they'd been doing it for a while now. And of course the thing I was afraid would happen happens: they snap at me. How dare I keep interrupting them! At which point the shouting match begins, because I may not seek out a fight, but I will never back down from one. And then the DM steps in, and takes my side by saying that the fight with the fanatic was not one we could talk our way out of, and that the other player had been talking for 30 minutes in a row, and that they had interrupted ME several times, and that I had only asked them nicely which in no way warranted them biting my head off. I'm glad to say that the fighting stopped right there(apparently having the DM state that they were categorically wrong on EVERY point really took the fight out of them), and the player has since toned down the rage.
although we have actually watched your videos in game, it might be something we did while Gamemaster was setting up the next scene, so we did to where everyone could watch. Still love that episode about Scott Brown Properties. Also live in Texas and its hilarious of a concept!
Try having a gamemaster who is the Willfully Ignorant player. I was in a Pathfinder game recently and THAT was a problem. Not to mention not remembering what was going on or was is PRESENTLY going on. AUGH! "There-Not There" is a big problem at my table, unfortunately. Especially with phones. I intend to enact some new rules in 2018 about being on your phone while you're in any scene.
Hello sir, as always, I enjoy your videos. I was hoping you might be able to fix the shifting focus of your camera in future videos, I know it's minor, as your words are much more important, but I found it very distracting. I look forward to your next video! Happy Holidays!
In board gaming circles, the Co-op genre (games where the players team up to beat the game, examples are Pandemic and Arkham Horror,) has their version of the Puppet Master, called the Alpha Gamer. He's often the veteran of the game, and knows the best strategies. But he also will start dictating to the players what they should do, and saying that if you aren't doing as he says, that you aren't helping the team win. It's a deeply frustrating situation.
We have a sort-of solution for steamrollers/puppet masters in the homebrew rules an old mate has been putting together over the last 20 years. You get to choose from a few traits for each of your characteristics, and one of the traits for Intelligence is called "resourceful". If you have that trait other players are allowed to give you hints and tips when you're stuck and asking for some help. It's not automatically something players take because the other traits all bring their own nice benefits. Not that it always stops the resident "teleporter" from somehow being where there's a promise of action but it does keep it down.
Self-admission: I mostly ever attack with spells, and the few times I have to use a weapon I panic and I act exactly as you described the "don't learn the rules guys" XD now I've written down clearly all my bonuses so I don't do that anymore, it was so embarrassing XD
I'm a month late, but here's one you coulda put in here. The Omniscient Player Usually found in new players to tabletop adventure games, this is what happens when a Steam Roller and a Puppet Master come together in one package. They constantly dictate what happens giving the other players no time to enjoy themselves and when their character is not present for something they use the information that they should not know regardless. From personal experience, it gets frustrating as hell when this player while super excited to play starts dictating how everyone else plays. Even more so when they go off to a library to learn some history but then when the rogue goes off to the apothecary to get some special poison for their own personal task, and in the process acquires a plot item, the omniscient player suddenly has an interest in alchemy and needs to have the same, even though there was no prior discussion and know skill points were spent in the skill, going as far as to point out the bottle on the shelf exactly... In all fairness, I was a new DM/GM at the time with only one other campaign under my bet, but it's still annoying.
Great Video Seth! Have you ever had a player that used there character to make everyone uncomfortable at the table? There was a game I was playing in and this guy who shall remain nameless who at every opportunity would try and put his and other peoples character's in weird perverse situations. Or try and do things that everyone at the table agreed that we where not going to do like enslave people in a party of good characters. He displayed some traits like the steamroller but had a little something extra messed up going on!
In my campaign, the party was hired by a merchant named Bothaar to kill a bandit who had been harassing his caravans. One of the characters, Yaromil, was married to Bothaar's daughter. When they returned for their reward, one of the characters, Gornjolf, groped Bothaar's daughter and a fight ensued between the players. Due to a critical fail, Gornjolf accidentally killed one of Bothaar's nearby business partners and was arrested by the local authorities. He then had a trial by combat against a manticore and managed to survive, and now there is a lot of tension between Yaromil and Gornjolf in game and out of character.
Thank you for defining the willfully ignorant player. We have a particular offender of that version. He never knows any of his modifiers or skills at the beginning of the session "Roll for attack" "Yes" stares at dice* "Which one is it?". Later on he get annoyed when people just puppet master him/tell him how his character works cause his turn in combat takes 10+ minutes. To hit something, roll damage and move. How do you improve this situation? What to say?
Ouch - the Willfully Ignorant character hits hard! 1.5 years & a certain PC still doesn't remember... It can be horribly frustrating to explain the basics (again).
This comes home. There's someone in our group who has at least three of these behaviors. They're never going to be corrected but they're intensely frustrating and time-wasting for even the most even-tempered of the rest of us, at times. The dice-stacking behavior in this case is just one aspect of severe OCD that affects all of their interactions with the group - particularly the eternal demands for exact mapping and detailed place-naming information, though we are rarely in worlds where maps are more than notional "here there be dragons" concepts. One of the GMs once tried to deal with part of this by running an a SF setting where all star systems where the same travel time apart from each other. Was somewhat helpful!
I will admit to forgetting how many of my favourite spells work basically every time, but I do try to mitigate the problem with fancy cheat sheets with all the info on them, that I wrote there myself to hopefully aid in my memory. It still takes longer than needed to read through my own notes every time, and I can't just "do it before your turn" because I'm focusing on what else is happening, but it's better than hitting up a frickin' wiki during my turns. Unfortunately it seems I have a very poor memory for what numbers or rolls go where. :c
A player type I've gotten quite a few times, The Blank Slate. They give the bare basics of a character, which is fine, but then refuse to develop their character at all, then complains about not getting as involved when they make no effort to do anything but the bare basics. Even given opportunities to shine and do something personal, they opt out.
My husband, may he rest in peace, both introduced me to D&D and caused me to become a DM and was my first and most favorite murder victim. The thing was that we were both introducing new players to D&D. I would let the new player's stupidity bring them within a point or two of death in the game and then his player would try to save them and either succeed through good play or (possibly) die in the attempt. Either way, the lesson was never forgotten and my players both play with me and fear me to this day...I have never had occasion to kill any of them; they have made it by the skin of their teeth. But still, they flat-out panic because one day, I am going to take somebody down.
Really informative video. I've definitely run across a couple of those. Even when running a pokemon campaign I had a player absolutely lose it and accuse me of cheating because he misread what his move actually did.
the "this plan failed because of all of you and i am not at fault at all" and the "that obvious mistake was totally planned and i'm never going to let you forget, even years later, i totally planned that and it was not at all a mistake. Totally planned"
This has helped me notice some of my own tendencies that I should keep in check. I can be domineering at the table and should dial it back and keep things fun. Bad positioning in combat makes me crazy, but I need to let that go sometimes.
The work-around for the "willfully ignorant" is online character sheets, and virtual tables, with macros. You can't forget to add your +2 bonus, when it's already factored into the roll. If you've got a "rage monster", just boot 'em from the group. Don't fudge it. Tell 'em why, and that you don't enjoy having them around.
Yeah, I actually hulked out on our party's rogue (he constantly fucking rules lawyered against the GM in games & slowed shit down, needled me & what I wanted to do with my character & generally acted like a pest) so when I did light him up, I wish I hadn't. Just made everybody uncomfortable which sucked.
I tend to build the dice towers, but mostly because I need to do something else in order to listen to the DM. But I've found that using my fidgetcube is just better, so I don't get distracted by something worse, like doodling comics D:
Dude, great vid. Nice list and awesome insights. But really... You could try to control that auto-focus on your cam. The constant change kinda gave me the heebie-jeebies.
Funny... The party of 8 I am mastering has all of them, and one checks for 4 out of 5 alone. Total of 17 if counting doubles. Someone wanna trade? Got lot of doubles
So in short:
1. Let others play.
2. Play *your* character.
3. Learn how to play your character.
4. Remember there is a game.
5. Remember it's just a game.
+
4b
09:50
"Please don't watch me youtube videos in the middle of a game."
Similar to the Rage Monster is the Depression Monster, or the Eeyore. Instead of going all HULK SMASH and flipping the table, they instead spend the rest of the session in a "what's the point?" mood. They speak in a slow monotone and make comments that drag everyone else down with them, and nobody wants to confront them about it because it'll just send them further into depression or turn them into a Rage Monster.
Sigh... that's me. Usually it's because RPing my current character has revealed a personality flaw i didn't know that I had or just simply kept buried.
I have had one of each. Those were the ones who 'bullied' me. I hates them so much.
As someone who suffers from depression, I can tell you I can't always control that, and I have brought the party down doing it and I felt bad for that as well. I, however, am legitimately someone with depression versus a nihilist who isn't having fun and so sets out to ruin it for everyone else. I am self aware and apologetic, those fucking assholes (and I have dealt with them too as a DM) are just unhappy with the game and taking it out on you. And it fucking sucks.
I've done that once, but like CryingBuddha I've also got diagnosed clinical depression and I really didn't respond well to our party being railroaded into slavery. After suffering through multiple assaults IRL I struggle a bit with powerlessness/helplessness and went into a funk for about half and hour.
I had a couple players like this. The first had lots of self esteem issues and through giving him lots of encouragement and showing him that his character was really awesome.
The second was tired of gaming and just not excited about anything. He eventually stopped playing.
You forgot to mention that player who invites other players to your table without permission. My first and only 5e campaign fell apart because one guy, in my group of 7 players, brought a guy who felt that, because be was invited, he could then invite more people. Showed up at the hobby shop and found 23 people waiting for me.
Ouch. I've had a player ask permission for his college friends to visit and watch, and that was fine, because they remained respectful and silent (and very observant.) It was sincerely flattering, and I was sure to thank them afterwards. I invited them as guest players for the next session and they had an absolute blast. It was a memorable night!
That. Is the best "tower" of stacked dice. I have ever seen.
Right? At that point it's the dumb game distracting him from completing his masterpiece.
I have one more for you that I struggled with.
"The ego player"
A player that wants everything to shine their ego, they always want to be the best, the strongest, the most awesome out of the group and in doing so they oppress everyone including the game master cause if at any point they are not the coolest thing around that ruins their enjoyment and they will make sure to let everyone know that. They basically want to be the epic main character.
And it's worse when the player wants to be the best human being in the room out of game too.
You bring a set of new dice - he comes next week with 7 new sets of (very expensive) dice. You bring some snacks and drinks to share - next week he cooks a full meal, brings plates and silverware and cracks open expensive bottles of liquor.
You have a little plastic folder to hold your character sheet, notes, and maps - he gets a top of the line executive binder with all his sheets laminated.
It's bad enough that a person feels he has to do that, but he also has to point it out and mention it often, so we have no choice but to pointedly notice and talk about it.
I am dealing with that kind of player. He is making his character ridiculous and being condescending. My character wants to acquire a decent amount of mithral ingots or ore to try to make some interesting things because my character is an inventive person and wanted to try out some of the interesting things from a construct manual. The other player basically starts saying there is no way my character can afford any mithral ingots or ore even though I have like 3k gold.
Used to play with A DMPC just like this. He insisted on playing the greatest rogue ever while also being the DM in his own home brew world. That campaign did not last long
I played with two brothers that had been playing together forever. One brother was the DM the other brother was a 1/2 minotaur 1/2 dragon born celestial monk.
Every time we got a chest the brother got "the flaming sword of holy life!" And the rest of the party got old leather boots and a rusty dagger. It was fun stuff.
Oh yes, a favorite. If there's a problem his character can't solve - but another one can - he'll sulk until the GM throws him something where he can shine. Yes, I understand wanting your character to actually be useful, but others should get to be useful too.
One player that bothers me is the player that argues the dm is wrong for far to long, or tries to persuade the dm that they should have advantage, or the enemy should be surprised. I can understand making a case for some stuff but there is a point where when the DM says No you did not surprise the bartender you wanted to kidnap because he walked out with 4 guards and had multiple armed patrons firing out at you with muskets and youre plan revolved around him being an oblivious idiot who wouldn't be at all suspicious of a 7 foot tall Lizard saying "Hey, you wanna come meet my friends....". Sorry I'm venting.
Hahaha. This is true. I have no idea what I'd call that type of player, but I know exactly what you're talking about. And no worries about venting. Hell, every RPG Philosophy video I do is just lists of me venting.
I think I know what to call that one; the Politician.
Also called "the rules lawyer" @@sushitime8622
I, as DM, once entertained a 3 week e-mail discussion about how 5e scorching ray worked w/one player who wanted it to do more than (the eventual errata agreed) it should. I feel your pain.
"ooooh, uh really? wel... i got an 18!"
dat part cracked me up.
Good content, man. gonna binge your DM stuff. subscribed !
Seriously! "I had no idea what was happening, but because my roll was high I stand by it!" If it was low they wouldn't have. Ugh!
Aww, Seth was really picking on his Surfer Dude personality today.
Aethon056 he always chooses that character to be the “bad” character.
he also chooses him to be the good character a lot
I think he just likes talking like a 90s kid
I came to the comments just to talk about that actually. I feel better that other people noticed that
Maybe he use to be like that and just presenting it to our entertainment XD
Player 2 seems to have become the main character of most of the skits, with players 1 and 3 acting as supporting cast. So whatever the topic, player 2 is almost always the example.
The player that tells the GM that he's augmenting reality.
"I'm rolling my attack, and I'm gonna go ahead and give myself a +2 because the enemy hasn't moved yet."
"I'm rolling perception. All the normal bonuses... Plus the +2 the current lighting gives me..."
That kind of gets to me.
I can be pretty lenient, but when I'm *told* that the player is doing their own homebrew to bloat their own rolls is a p/o.
Oof, that would be torture to have to gm for.
lutin grognon
Except the bonuses were non existent rules wise.
"Are we flanking? I get +2 if we're flanking." Is different than: "I'm adding an extra +2 because the winds are favorable and guiding my sword."
Guess I'll have to agument every CD to 60 then
I'm all for players trying to be creative with the mechanics but there's a difference between, "With all this lightning lighting up the area, would that give me a bonus?" and "With all the lightning in the area I get a +2 to my perception"
lutin grognon I agree if the players are continually doing this without asking the GMs permission then I feel the GM has every right to punish the character (if the player won't listen obviously)
I've got a couple of my own. The Combat Guy: He's only there for the combat, and can't be bothered to join in with the role playing or general merry-making. In particular, I have one player that will stay silent in 95% of dialogue, unless he is spoken to first. It's not a character trait, it's a player trait.
Example: My players had been traveling for a couple days, and happened onto a town of former thieves guild members. My other 4 players begin talking to locals, buying and selling supplies and goods, and one of them got a curse lifted. When it gets to his turn, he just tells me he wants to see the armorer or blacksmith. When he gets there, I try to instigate some roll play. "Top o' the mornin' to ya! Anything I can do ta help, or are ye just gonna talk me ear off? HAHA!" He looks me dead in the eye and says, "I want 3 daggers, one short bow, and 30 arrows.", then makes the motion of dropping a sack of coins in front of me. Now, I try to include everyone, and make it fun for them, and I knew he was all about the fighting and numbers. That's why I try to get at least one encounter in every game. Most of my other players say they don't mind if there's no fighting in a session, but I know he wouldn't be satisfied if there wasn't at least one bout of combat.
Also players that don't know the basic mechanics of what you can do in a turn of initiative get on my nerves, but they're generally genuine about not remembering. "Sorry, but you can't move 60 feet, swing off a rope, throw 3 daggers at 3 enemies in mid air, then stab a 4th one when you land without them making an attack of opportunity." "Why not?" "Because you're bound, gagged, and surrounded."
I once made a character with a 1,5 page of backstory the dm could use to mine plot hooks. He had a very defined personality abd I liked playing him. But instead the dm probably didn't even read my backstory, and railroaded us into whatever story He wanted. After that I made a dumb barbarian that only cares about fighting and almsot never speaks.
Most gm's have a stick so far up their asses they don't realize that some bad players / characters are like this because of bad previous experience.
The opposite is also true. I have two players in my group who like to avoid combat and danger. It's like they are afraid of dying because of a bad die roll or something. They try to solve every encounter by talking, which is fine if you like roleplay but I think that if you are supposed to be an adventurer, you should be willing to risk your life sometimes.
My least favorite: The Flake.
Almost as bad: the SnowFlake.
"What do you mean I can't play as a Drider Psionic Noble?"
Just had to kick out a flake. He did not handle it well.
Sometimes I am a snowflake player, but I always ask if it fits into the world, and I am not messing with the dm or another player .so why cant I play a psionic Drider if it is an option?
Look, you can do that, but have less fun by having no relation to what is already established as going on in the game.
I am planning to host Princes of the Apocalypse, but I am limiting my players to picking class archetypes that revolve around elemental power. "OH WOW HOW COULD YOU DO THAT MEANIE ABLOOBLOO-" Let me explain.
It's more fun for myself and others playing to have relation to the world around them. It enriches the game through deepened lore, inter-party relations, and narrative. Playing as a psychic spider drow has virtually no link to what I'm trying to do as DM. Now, that MAY work in that Abyss Underdark module where Drow are heavily present, but part of the fun of the game is building what feels like a realistic world that involves the party.
Let's say you wanted to play Drider in PotA anyway. Well, let's see...the Monster Manual basically says you're an outcast so you'd realistically be an exiled noble. Many special snowflake character ideas I've come across are done strictly for their own character without relation to the game setting. It becomes a selfish player's fantasy character and they only focus on their own character which frankly is toxic, anti-social nonsense that can kill narrative and party-world enthusiasm.
Another thing: I'm the DM. I will say "no" the most during session 0 and character creation, but that's only because I want us all to know what to expect going into it as well as giving the players a chance to create tangible character bonds in the game world, which in all my experiences leads to more fun.
most games i play or run were a group of misfits ,we have a evil campain with a yanti noble a kenku assasin and me a changling ranger our only link is the noble paying me and the kenku or my game running stratd ( zombie genasi barbarian and half-elf storm sorcerer there only link is they hate stratd , in your campaign i would probably play my barbarian noble genasi of the storm 9son of an elfreeti sultan but i would complain that we only can choose an archtype
"Dude, it's been two years," that one really got me
Try 22 (or more - someone who was in the group years before I started and still requires constant reminders).
We once had a player that was a rage-monster and a there not there. He'd pay absolutely no attention or distract other players but as soon as he took a hit, the salt spewed forth. It was so odd. He also had this bizarre habit of rolling the nearest die to hand whenever he had to roll, regardless of how many sides it had.
Then, after we quietly sat down and explained why we were kicking him from our group, he never spoke to us again. Like we were friends before that, we just said that we'd rather not play D&D with him.
Stinks to lose a friend over that, but sounds like booting him from the group needed to be done. It's stories like this that make me glad I create my groups via Reddit and game shop posters. It's much easier to kick a stranger from a group than a friend. And once those strangers stick around for a year or two, many of them become friends.
You did the right thing
as a gm, players who never learn how the basic mechanics of them game work infuriate me to no end. once had a player who was a hanger on for about a year, only ever played barebones sword and board fighters and yet never bothered to learn that you don't use a d8 for attack rolls.
Comrade Yui my personal pet peeves are characters who make intentionally bad characters. Like they put an 8 in their primary stat for no real reason.
i think that can be interesting as long as the character itself is cool. had a player put a 7 in their rogue's dex and she played it as the rogue being more of a thuggish person who was the muscle for a crime boss, it worked out well
Comrade Yui yes that works. I have played with an 8 int. wizard who played it as a jock bladesinger. There are ways to make it work, but I mean the person who makes a tiefling druid and doesn't use anything from the tiefling, and combines the issue you were talking about where she just writes whatever spells sound cool and doesn't know what they do.
That drives me nuts, too. I had a player who flaked out a lot, and then wouldnt pay attention when they showed up. About two months into the campaign I called for a Vigor roll (Savage Worlds) and was met with "I dont know what that is!". It took all my willpower not to explode.
Now that's just sad. I would tell them to read Basic Rules, linking them to the PDF since the full PHB would be too hard. Being willfully ignorant? Well then I'm only teaching you about the basics.
The player who tries to backseat GM.
How do you even attempt to backseat a GM? They are basically gods and can say your character had a heart attack and died just because reasons.
It mostly happens when the DM is new, and he let's the players dictate stuff cause he feels he's not experienced enough.
does it count if the GM asks me if something is right cause i know more about the lore than him? (40k RPG for reference)
Deadeye It's not back seating if they actually ask for your input.
Even worse when that player interrupts the DM while the DM is answering another player's question.
This has happened so often in my game that most of the players, even after 5 sessions, don't understand the rules because backseat DM is mixing up 4th and 5th edition rules for our 3.5 campaign.
Not only do I have to keep correcting his misinformation, but when I do make a ruling in the game that he doesn't like he shrugs and sarcastically says, "Well, I guess the rules are different in every edition."
I freely admit that I fell asleep during an all night campaign. The rest of the party went down into a cavern, and I held the rope so they could climb down. The GM happened ro see me rouse and come to, and asked what I was doing. I said I'm holding the rope. That became a trope for anyone not paying attention to the game. He's holding the rope.
If you ever make an updated list, I believe you should include the "Pointless Serial Killer" to the list.
I'm talking about players who create evil characters, or even neutral characters, and will kill off any NPC that even remotely disagrees with them. I've been in situations were characters have stabbed important plotline NPCs over disputes as simple as reserving personal information. It very often doesn't make sense with the character they are running, nor does it make realistic sense, as there are few beleiveable characters that are willing to murder any individual for any slight.
Sound like another name for "Murder Hobo": www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=murderhobo
I will say that they are fairly easy to deal with, at least from GM perspective: Simply do not play any RPG that creates them! (That is the entire D&D series and similar systems) As it is usually the same systems deprived by the crappy alignment system.
I disagree, you find them in any RPG system that has combat. It's usually more like the player letting their id run wild. Given the freedom to do whatever, they lash out at an in-game obstacle because they don't think about the consequences. Its sort of like playing any open-world sandbox video game (Elder Scrolls, GTA, etc) You tend to go on a rampage from time to time. The difference is that at the table, these players dont realize it negatively impacts the rest of the party. Usually they just need a "chill out" talking to.
The Pointless Serial Killer, The Pointless Kleptomaniac... I've played a fair bit of LN and CN characters, though I despise CEs and CGs who falsely advertise themselves as good. CNs are okay, so long as it makes sense in character(my Red Taninim(Dragon PC) comes into mind) but not an excuse to be non-chalant about everything.
I get it, Chaotics can get to be dickwads to both NPCs and other PCs alike, it's just when it gets in the way of moving the game forward. This can be also conversely applied to any alignment really.
@@dracmeister I personally approach chaotic's as just being selfish. Having a bit of a I'm a bit more important than the rest of you type. What I mean is that push comes to shove they will put their own goals or self preservation first depending on the other half of their alignment. But never as a brooding, lashes out at everything that they precive as looking at them funny. I been playing a chaotic Neutral bard-warlock and only once did she ever lash out at a npc in anger and that was during our groups play through of Curse of Strahd as we all were in Van Richton's tower where she found his journal and read some entries learning that he had killed a few Vistani, including my charecters late wife for no obvious provocation. My charecter was adopted into the Vistani so she leaped on him and was choking him all while asking him why, the party got her to stop and he explained his reasoning and she read him the riot act saying that he was no better as the ones he killed weren't the ones who wronged him and so on and that the only reason why she won't kill him wasn't because madam Eva said that he is the one who will help her friends defeat Strahd but so he will live what little time he has knowing that a Vistania was the better person than he ever could be. It made things tense for the group as they were always worried that him and her were going to kill each other eventually but they eventually talked it out and got a little respect for each other even with both helping save the other at different points in the final push through castle Ravenloft. But yeah I don't ever see Chaotic whatever as meaning chaotic asshat unless you are playing a Villian.
Give them a talking to and if they can't get it together to RP then force the consequences of their in game actions upon them i.e. -reroll.
you know, I revisit these rpg philosophy vids a lot and I'm always impressed at how much they apply to just a social life in general. Earlier today I was reminded that a particular family member of mine has a tendency to be a rage monster of the "bottle it up variety". They do not play RPGs at all. But they are someone I tend to avoid driving with or I try to keep any errands/public social visits on the briefer end because I know it's only a matter of time till they blow.
On a more lighthearted note (and I guess more to the point), these videos have helped me more than at the table, they've helped me make going through just about any day easier and more fun, or at least made it easier to spot where problems start. Thanks Seth, life would be so much worse without you.
#6: The Hostage Taker. "I host the games so I decide if and when we play, I don't care what everyone else considers important! If you argue with me, no one gets to play and I decide that a game that I don't even run is completely over!"
Just had a group fall apart where one person did that, his girlfriend followed along because he constantly controls her, and the other guy is a coward when it comes to conflict.
Sounds like no great loss tbh
Flavor of the Weekers. I had a guy who was a solid all arounder till a new source book dropped that featured a new Clan, class, or Powersets. Then he would drop his character for a new one.
Fashion Victims. these guys are mostly a LARP thing. They show up in full costume even if they don't have too. And trust me comfortable shoes are a very necessary piece of LARP gear.
Meat loaf this is a good one for a follow up video lol
Jeez, the one game I participate in I play with some of my best friends (known these people for years) and the DM is likewise, everybody's friend as well. He's a phenomenal guy and a damm good/inventive DM especially for this being 1st role-playing game. However, anyone who seems remotely interested in the game he wants to participate because he wants everyone to be included and have fun but that lead him to including his girlfriend in the game. She's not an overtly bad person but she is bad players #2 & #3. She's never involved and never pays attention so as a result she never knows anything. (We only play once a month now as well because she is the only player who hates long sessions, so the compromise our DM came up with this we only play one long session a month, thanks) We would kick her out if we could, but she is his gf and despite how she acts at the table she always acts like she loves d&d whenever she's with the DM. (they live together).
Update: She is becoming slightly more involved with her character, which is good, but now she treats her character as a total joke. Humor is fine, damm near encouraged every now and then at the table, (I'm a bard for fuck's sake) but not if it defines your whole character Because we still take the game seriously as a whole. I'm mainly posting this to get it off my chest. They really is nothing we can do, Because let's face it, the DM will always have a bias towards his gf. Thanks for reading if anyone did.
Sirius Mann,
Monk 4 (Way of the Drunken Master)
Backstory:
An unserious man walked out of his home and stubbed his toe. An unserious man fell into a deep melancholy, and became, A Depressed Man. A Depressed Man found an ancient monastery, and trained relentlessly to forget, the shame and embarrassment of, stubbing his toe. A disciplined man told a Depressed Man that he needed discipline, and focus, if he ever hoped to become, a serious man. In that moment, a depressed man, chose to become, a serious man. A Serious Man, has since, always been a, serious man. A serious man has wandered the world, seeking to become, a heroic man. When a serious man, has become, a heroic man, a heroic man will return to his village, where a heroic man, will have the will and strength to endure, the shame and embarrassment of, stubbing his toe. A serious man must deal with every situation, seriously. If a serious man, was not to hand every situation seriously, he could not become, a heroic man.
Go out of your way to encourage her. It’s hard getting into rpg’s. Especially so for a lot of women trying to break in to what’s a bit of a “boys club”. The way to handle these players as a GM or another player is to engage them, whatever it takes, so that they can become comfortable and learn good habits and attitudes (hopefully) from the other, more experienced players. Every now and then, make the session “The [Insert Name Here] Show” (which I feel is good idea for every PC). Foster her love of the art! Role playing has a lot of positive emotional and creative value and can make definite impacts in people’s lives if the “group” has a positive attitude. There is real value here, and it should be spread. :D rant ended
Ugh. Had a GM bring his girlfriend to the game and it didn't work out at all. She was obviously disinterested, knew nothing to the point where he had to play her character, and got crabby and fell asleep at the table after an hour or two, which became an escalating source of distress for the GM until the session simply couldn't go on anymore. I still have absolutely no idea why she kept joining us. I mean, she was part of the friends group, so not an outsider, and she was into games; but she clearly wasn't into DND and wasn't having any fun at all beyond the initial "hang-out" portion of any gaming session.
Nothing against girlfriends gaming. As a GM, I started a campaign with my girlfriend as a player. However, it wasn't her first campaign and she really wanted to be there. She contributed and we all had fun. Didn't stop one of the players from treating her like the "GM's girlfriend", but that's on him.
Kon Trarien that’s the thing, it’s not gendered. It’s a matter of the player wanting to be there.
It's difficult, but people should comfortable and confident enough to communicate and stand up to one another (respectfully) before playing D&D together.
It's not The Witcher, Red Dead or Zelda, where you do as you please, when you please, because you're on your own.
In D&D we have to compromise & cooperate to drive the fun ourselves, together.
Involving a (live-in) significant other is a serious decision that should be weighed against their seriousness, manners and the group dynamics.
Once had a new player come in mid-campaign who insisted on having headphones on to listen to Weird Al while we were playing our D&D game. He was actually mumbling the lyrics to White and Nerdy to himself. Wasn't paying attention to the game at all, but his eyes just screamed "I'm looking for peer approval this way". I wanted to throw him out the nearest window.
Thanks Seth! Reminds me of Matt Colville's video on a similar topic, but definitely adds to that discussion. I was wondering if you might do a follow up on how to deal with these bad player archetypes?
Dealing with distracted players is one of the big issues I tend to face, its gotten better over time but in high school, when our smartphones and other mobile devices were a bit newer it was a lot worse.
Dustin Deckert yeah there is one player in our group that is an absolute type 2. I do sympathize because he has bad adhd and everyone else decided to have initiative outside of combat, (which means waiting 10-20 mins, for your turn) but he constantly plays loud videos on his phone, and doesnt even read the fucking group chat most of the time, which has lead to me not being able to finish a three shot I was running. He never seems to care
Alan Brockhaus we used to institute a total no phones rule, but for us anyway a good amount of us have reference materials on our phone, but I would suggest talking to him and trying to get things sorted out. Maybe he should have a fidget cube or something, I have add myself and I find it hand to have something quiet I can mess with during games, it helps me focus by keeping my hands busy. It won't work for everyone but it's worth a shot. At the end of the day if things don't work out then they don't, but at least you can say you tried.Yeah
Dustin Deckert I don't know if he has tried a fidget cube before. It might be because he is prescribed an unhealthy amount of adhd meds (it is very bad) and we only see him off if it during our gaming session. The DM has said multiple times to get off the phone. I do also have a tendency to want to be on my phone, but I try to resist it and I only play games that don't require thought. such as subway surfer or flow free. my biggest issue is his inability to read the group chat, and he is oblivious to why I am upset about it.
I've had a similar issue with one friend, in general he has had issues in the past with scheduling and texting or messaging back, and well he got better on his own. I'm not really sure what advice to give, but I hope that things work out for the best. As for a fidget cube, I've seen them at Walmart and my local game store for around 5 or 6 dollars. And fidget toys are pretty common now after the spinner craze so it could be worth a shot but who really knows?
Dustin Deckert we have 2 of these people in our play group one is really really new to tabletop the other is our GM but only when he gets to be a player when he GMs hes on point give him a char sheet and hes off to the races with jis game boy or something
So, I've been watching these videos for a few days (just found your channel) and I caught myself actually thinking of the various players in your skits as different individuals. Kudos to your acting!
Real glad to have seen this video. I have the problem of being the steamroller. Although not as exaggerated, it can be discouraging for other players knowing they may be interrupted. I'll have to work on that.
It takes practice. Mine is the rules master- as a forever GM, when I get to play, I tend to forget I'm not the rules arbiter and automatically assume things are as I'd run them.
This is the first video I've seen of yours, fantastic content, definitely subscribed. As an aside, I can't help but think it must be absolute hell dusting those shelves with all the minis on them.
Seth's scenario reviews & recaps are wonderful. You will binge. ;-)
NefariousKoel Lol, I already have
I think about tge dusting thing alot. Im pretty poor so I have basically nothing on my shelves and theyre already difficult to clean, cant even wrap my head around cleaning a mini shelf display
birbfanchannel tighto I have one Warhammer mini on my shelf that collects and shows dust like no other. That many minis must look like Santa's village after a week or two
Glad you're enjoying my little channel. The game reviews are my bigger passion. My personal favorites are Paladin Dice and the Paranoia review (which my creator enjoyment is probably way different than regular viewer enjoyment).
As for the shelves, I just try not to look at them. Every so often I bust out the canned air and blast all the dust out of the little nooks and crannies in the miniatures. The bulk of my minis are safely away in cases, but for those too large to fit in a case, they live on the shelves beneath a protective layer of dust.
man this rlly made me internalize that i was a pretty shitty player when i started out last year, combined willfully ignorant and inattentive. i can make excuses like i didn't vibe with the system or whatever but honestly i just feel bad for my old gm now, cuz its not like my antics were unique. anyway since finding ur channel ive gotten a lot more invested in rpg and im making plans to be a gm of my own, and if im invited back to be a player some day ill be sure to be the best player ever this time!! thank u so much for ur videos :]
I think most of us were monsters when we started. My long-time players and I regularly give each other grief over all the crap we used to do.
My biggest problem player is "The Comedian". Gaming has always been fun, but when they were young they would goof off, crack jokes and insults, and just be chaotic and silly. Now, even when the gamers have grown up and want to take the games more seriously, they still feel the need to constantly interrupt with jokes, "wouldn't it be funny if..", immature player actions, and other things that disrupt the game or kill the mood. They often get laughs though, so they think it's encouragement, but it's extremely disruptive.
Madkingstow this really is an issue in horror games
I have to give you props on your insight. I'm a new player, but I kinda know how things work and I have some common sense when it comes to gaming and stuff. I appreciate how your information and explanation is not just fantasy dnd but even sci-fi. Keep doin what you're doing man
8:52 That 18 could work wonders if he'd quoted Tyrion Lannister and said the "In my own bed, at the age of eighty..." thing
Got a horror story of a bad player.
He's 4 of those player types rolled into one.
At level 4, before an encounter with a giant lake monster, he kept saying it was an aboleth. I asked him how he'd know and "Rogue Training" was his best answer. When it wasn't an aboleth, I 'swerved' him.
The party encountered a behir, he refused to believe that the monster is in the Monster manual in 5e. While combat was still going on, he asked to see the monster manual.
Incredible. You should have kicked him out right then and there.
Even if you had made a new monster up on the spot, so what! Your game, your rules.
As long as you don't (obviously) railroad the players and keep it reasonably fair, anything goes.
He should have just thanked you and been happy to be part of the session.
Some People act so annoyingly entitled...
Roland P. To play devil's advocate, that player may have been under the impression that they were playing a more typical game of D&D without homebrew (as homebrewed monsters can be as unfair as homebrew races, classes, and spells) and could rightly be concerned.
My response to the accusation would have been to breiflt show the image of the creature (I often show an image when first describing a new monster) and freely show the player the name of the creature with your hand over the stat block.
Regarding the it's an Aboleth incident, how I would have dealt with your player is first have that character roll a DC 20 to 25 (Hard to Very hard) History check to see if they've every actually heard about this creature.
Zero The Crow
He did see the image of the behir in the monster manual. After showing the image he asked for my book as combat was still going on.
In a bit of detail. Here's the dialog.
"You encounter a blue serpentine beast with many limbs."
"There's nothing like that in the monster manual!"
"Yes there is, roll initiative"
A few players get a turn in, I do a breath attack.
"it has a breath attack!? This has to be in volos or an older edition"
"it's not"
I show him the page with the behir art on it just showing the creature.
A combat round ends.
"While x decides on a spell, can I read the monster manual?"
"No"
Que the bickering.
dreamakuma Yea, it sounds like your player may not fully understand that they don't need to see the monster stats because unlike some games that's not freely given player information.
Now, if the character is now inspired to learn about these monsters should they come across them again you can open that path for them this mechanically giving them information such as lore or facts about their stats (example: you learn that it has a though hide like [other creature with same AC] or give that information it has an AC of X. This is the main approach I recommend for players who play characters who want to learn things like this, sometimes I've given small temporary boons such as the monster needs to role 1 higher or the character needs to roll 1 less to hit to reflect this study with the simple caveat that the player can only have on research boon at a time and the information needs to be studyied regularly to really provide a tangible boon.
If the player is just curious about the monster lore and such (& you're not planning on using it again anythine soon) you could let the player read it, just not during combat with it obviously. I both DM and play PCs so I own my own MM but just know not to use it to meta an encounter, in fact I often ignore things I know unless my PC passes knowledge checks.
Zero The Crow
I'm all for showing behind the screen once the dice are put up. This player is combative and wants to win regardless. The thing that got him kicked was just terrible.
I ran I6: Castle Ravenloft. He read the adventure ahead of time and killed off NPC's without any provocation, and started spoiling surprises about Strahd.
As always, an insightful video. Very much enjoyed it! Running off of this idea, could you also make a "Five Best Tabletop Players"? I've seen a lot of "Worst of..." videos, not a lot of the opposite. I think it could be a good guide for everyone equally what it looks like to be welcomed and appreciated at the table; giving it 100% while making it look as though you're giving 120%.
Sorry. No can do. I have no idea how to shut a fuck up. Could you demonstrate?
DrTheKay why you being rude dude?
@@arlaxazure486
Well, I suppose you'd have to first find someone to give you one. After someone gave you a fuck, you could study it to find out the best way to shut it up. That is, if it really needed shutting up.
I'm starting to dm & I'm trying to get my friends to play and they can't keep concentration for more than minute before leaving the TABLE.
You may have to delay your game for a little bit before starting your story. Make a list of the things that you observe happening and how it distracts you from running the game effectively. Don't single out but calmly have a discussion about how to stop the bad gaming table behavior. Are they there at the game to play or is this just a social exercise. Find out what is keeping them from being committed to the game for the 4-5 hrs it takes. Offer a 5-10 break every so often but insist that when they are back, there is an expectation for them to be fully involved. Penalties for breaking the rules might be docking xp or if it continues to be and issue just not running the game for them and finding other players willing to show you the respect you need to run stories. If they are young players you might have to give them more leeway but if they are adults expect them to behave like adults.
1) Maybe they don't want to play. Get different players.
2) Pick a system and play style that requires everyone to take action, and fast.
It is a social exercise, but there is also a social contract. Here are a few tips.
Start each game night with a BS session. Let everyone catch up, talk, get their stuff out, snacks, set up, and blow off the steam.
Talk to the group before hand about constraints. And enforce delimiters.
Take planned breaks that the group expects.
IE- my group knows we play approximately 3 hours. I start by letting them BS, I BS too... we talk about spent XP, things they need, whatever, then I start my background music and go "alright, where did we leave off?" And go around the table, letting them recap exactly where we paused. I then re-set the scene with my flowery language. We have a break about halfway through, if anyone needs it. And when we near our 3 hour mark, I find a stopping point / cliff hanger. And end with a session ending, "what did we learn?" As they pack up their stuff.
It helps to bookend your play, in a known, expected way. Its like clocking in / out of work.
Set ground rules.
Start the game with "Roll Initiative!"
My first time DMing, I had one player who was a passive-aggressive rage monster. Eventually, so much tension and resentment built up in the room because of this one player that a shouting match erupted and the session ended early. That was not a fun experience.
Love your alternate personalities in the sketches keep up the awesome work.
Hey Seth, this vid was super informative; love your stuff!
Hey! I’m a new subscriber, under a week, and I’ve watched a ton of your videos. The comedy is great and the content informative, keep up the great work man!
The "I'm Just Playing In Character Used as a Justification for Disruptive Behavior"
The "I Can't Bother to Engage With the Story So I'm Going Off In Whatever Direction"
The Flake
Thanks for making this video! A lot of people will complain about "Top 5" lists (for valid reasons sometimes) but this one manages to point out some of the more egregious examples of unfortunate player encounters one might have to deal with, something I've managed to have the misfortune of meeting a few too many times (or, at times, been myself, regrettably).
I did a bit of steamroller stuff in my early days, always wanting to talk to everybody, but I think starting to DM myself helped me put a lot of energy into that.
I think he could have gone on for two hours or more making it a top 20 list!
Dude, I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!! :D
You have great content, thanks for sharing!
Hi Seth, I love your videos. Actually, I'm about to play as a keeper for The Haunting (via the quickstart) as my first experience with Call of Cthulhu because I've loved your reviews so much. However, my group and I are somewhat used to D&D and the way CoC handles money and gear is very confusing to us who are normally playing gold-hungry adventurers.
I was wondering if you have any tips or advice for handling 7e CoC gear, weapons and money?
Awesome. Hope you and your players love it.
Switching over from a game that is all about getting the loot to one that isn't is a bit weird at first. Ain't gonna lie. Best thing to do is to be upfront with them that CoC isn't about the money, or at least isn't about the small expenses. It might take a few games for then (and you) to get used to it, and I even pump up the money reward in many adventures just because all of us like having that sweet, sweet imaginary wealth.
So, how it works is the players buy their Credit Rating as they would any other skill. Whatever bracket they fall into determines their money including daily expenses. Average income has a daily allowance of $10. Remember that's $10 in 1920's dollars, which is like $130 in today's money. Characters can't save this. Use it or lose it. If they go shopping, they can spend up to $10 without having to make any bookkeeping notes on their sheet. If they spend more, the ENTIRE amount comes out of their Available Cash. That daily amount will likely go toward little things like meals, hotels, cab-fare, etc. Then there's Assets. Assets are non-liquid money (or it can be, such as money in the bank) but usually its invested in something such as a house, furniture, a car, neato antiques, etc. So if your PC has, let's say, $15,000 in assets, you can say that it's made of a $8,000 house, a $600 car, $1000 in furnishings, and the remaining $5,400 is money in the bank or invested in the Stock Market, or maybe their business.
Make sense?
Now, if you and your players dig The Haunting, and you want to try more CoC, you might want to check out Doors to Darkness. It's designed for new Keepers and Players. The first adventure, The Darkness Beneath the Hill, is a dungeon-crawl, and your D&D veterans might enjoy that.
Seth Skorkowsky Wow, thanks for such a detailed response. This makes a lot more sense now. I remember looking at credit rating and thinking “but what does it mean? I understand living expenses but how does it affect pcs in game?” So really, thank you for clearing that up.
In addition to what Seth said, you may also consider "The Edge of Darkness" from CoC 6th Ed Core. I've used it to start every campaign with new people, and Seth already reviewed it!
Other than the rather excellent Doors to Darkness, I recommend Mansions of Madness and the Curse of Cthulhu (ignore the Day of the Beast campaign until Seth or someone gives some advice. Its not new Keeper friendly.). My favorite from Curse, for instance, is directly based off of an HPL story (just make sure to keep players in the dark about that). ;)
That ad blurb at the end. Love it :)
Man i remember several games I've been in before where there was just that guy, once, he was the GM (I hate that guy). The biggest player, was actually a friends of mine, and the DM's brother (Not the GM i hate). We were in a high power campaign, and started out with only 3 guys, so we each made 2 people to play (we later got 2 more players, and took a lot of balancing) This guy would basically stop games for hours at a time just so he can have the most out of the rules or some rules lawyering, but not only that, would stop games to correct you if anyone else tried to optimize or do the same.
The bad GM was basically the worst i've ever had. Steamrolled, puppeteered, deus ex machina, punished players he didnt like in game, terrible story, no room for character development, and would make up rules on the fly and refused to look them up when he was wrong (I get house rules and all, but there are a few things that are just basics of the game, and house rules should be mentioned in advance). For example, he started a days long argument with me, because i said that bastard swords are two handed and martial weapons, but one handed as exotic. Like I wasn't even upset about it, but he refused to be cool about it, and basically targeted me with all his bullying bullshit (most likely because I was a DM for my friend's other games and I actually knew the rules. My buddy even confirmed thats why he was mean to me after I left) To clarify, I would never stop game or anything. I would simply ask for a minute to ask whether or not this was the case, or to make sure what he said was correct, because it contradicted what I knew to be right, but I never outright called him wrong. In the end, I had my character commit suicide and rode my bike home in the rain, because fuck him.
Hey man. I've gotta say, I am loving your videos. I've seen a few videos from other people about rpgs, but they've never held my attention like yours do. Just subscribed and I'm gonna start binging your videos on my lunch breaks. Keep up the good work.
Glad you're enjoying them.
“It’s been 2 years, when you plannin to start learnin?!”
Excellent video as always. Personally, I'm terrified of the idea of being a Puppetmaster, to the point where I'm hesitant to offer advice to another player on how to make their character function better mechanically. I hate the thought that I might be influencing people to change their character, even if it's something that has little impact on who their character actually is, like wielding a glaive instead of dual-wielding scimitars (two attacks from a range where someone would have to move in to hit you is safer than 3 attacks in melee range, and while hitting three times at d6 might have a higher minimum and average damage than twice at d10, it's worth it to have fewer attack rolls and a higher maximum damage).
Oh! Do not be terrified... See it this way instead: You have identified the problem, now deal with it!
As the saying goes: "A good start is half the battle.".
I feel like the advice you just mentioned here was actually helpful and could benefit the game! I don't think that's Puppetmaster behavior as long as you let them make their own decision in the end!
And if it's their first couple of characters, don't sweat it. After that, if they're having problems, ask them what they are looking for: are they trying to make a Legolas or an Aragorn. Don't go for the best damage or AC.
Hello Mr. S! Will you pan over your bookcase someday on a vid? Looks like you have some treasures there. Thanks for all your content! Keep up the good works!
I relate to being the steamroller.
I was playing my first D&D session and I was really excited, and this lead to me trying always to be in the action, even if it was a backstory moment for another character.
After watching this video I realize my mistakes, and since we all died and we're making new characters I'm going to try to calm down a bit.
Another great video Seth!
Sadly, the There But Not There describes my whole group. I'm pretty new but when I was GM, I was constantly being interrupted by someone showing a video or telling a bad joke. The worst time was when every one of my players was playing Hearthstone as I was trying to run the game.
A couple for me is the munchkin, the player who always min-maxes their character to the extreme level and constantly strives for the absolute most powerful gear, and the other is the deadbeat player, the player that never even supplies the bare basics for themselves they never have any dice or paper or books or pencils nor do they ever supply snacks or drinks for the group, I can understand and forgive that sometimes people forget their things, but for someone to never anything hurts the group as a whole, I understand that each player should have extra dice , pencils, etc because you never know what happens when life happens.
The only time munchkins are allowed is when that's the point. Aka the min-max hell pathfinder game I'm playing where its just a ridiculously difficult dungeon crawl where you just min-max the fuck out of a character and level in 2 classes at once, for all the bonuses like BAB, CMB, CMD, and skill points are just of the higher class, you get both class skills, both class' proficiencies, both class' abilities, it's fun as fuck. And I'm a huge fan of heavy RP, but sometimes if the point of a game is to number-crunch, and you know that's what you're getting into, that's what you're getting into and it's so much fun. But min-max hell is the only place where munchkins are allowed
I know this is an old video, but I wanted to say thank you. I've watched a bunch of videos and I really like them. They're good entertainment even in and of themselves.
I've definitely had Puppet Master tendencies and generally try to catch myself before I become too obnoxious. Early on I was telling another player how to run her character and she yelled at me and it caused me to be like "fuck, do I do that alot? I need to start paying attention and nipping that in the bud."
In general I think every player has some shitty habits, but it's important to catch them before ye become a problem at the table and no one wants ye to play anymore.
Kudos to you for taking her criticism to heart!
8:43 damn that's one hell of a dice castle
I would also add to the list “Self-appointed Co-GM.” This player takes it upon themselves to answer every question directed at the GM. This is particularly bad with players who know the system well and it’s a rules question asked to the GM.
Nezzeraj I have someone like this in my group because I'm newer to the system (PTU) and also I like to alter rules on the fly if it's hampering the fun. This guy always answers people when they are trying to ask me something, which I don't mind sometimes because I'm newer to the system, but when I alter a rule and tell my players he will become somewhat of a rules lawyer and argue with me about the change.
I'm very guilty of this. I play with a lot of newer GM's and people who are willfully ignorant. They want to run a very broken homebrew, and when I'm a player it gets very frustrating having my entire class "re-written" because of GM fiat (aka "I dont know the rule for it, so the answer is no").
Milo M I don't think I've ever been that GM but I had one who kept asking me not to do something because he wasn't too confident with the rules. As I said my gm style is "as long as it doesn't break the game or ruin it for anyone else then just go ahead"
That sounds a bit frustrating but overall fair. We rotate GM's in my group and two of them just detest reading rulebooks and won't do it. They'd rather just use the knowledge they remember from being a player to run campaigns and then homebrew the rest. This ultimately leads to them completely ignoring certain classes or not balancing the game at all. I'm a game design student so this drives me bonkers.
I used to be the worst kind of rules lawyer, but I learned to reign it in when it was somebody else's game. What I do now is generally keep quiet unless I'm asked by the GM about how a rule works.
I don't want to name names, but I'll keep that "incognito" Seth in mind. Thanks for posting!
I really like your acting in the Ramones guy. It's so good I forget sometimes that you're all the same person!
Seth looking out for ALL of us DMs @ 9:54, ha!
As always, excellent content.
My worst roleplaying experience involves another player who would, for a while, snap at me at least once each gaming session, to the point that I was sometimes afraid to talk, because I didn't know what would set them off. At one point the person kept trying to talk an evil fanatic out of fighting, even though it was obvious from the first line out of the guy's mouth that he would not be dissuaded. When I heard it I was ready to fight. I prepared to attack... and got stopped be the rage monster who started talking, and talking, and talking. Several times during the talking I was ready to be like: "I've heard enough to know that you cannot be persuaded by reason" and then I was set to start the inevitable fight(inevitable to anyone but the other player that is) only to be interrupted by the other player so they could keep wasting their words. After a while I built up the courage to try to ask the other player as nicely as possible, out of character(while hoping that they wouldn't get angry), how long they were going to keep talking because they'd been doing it for a while now. And of course the thing I was afraid would happen happens: they snap at me. How dare I keep interrupting them! At which point the shouting match begins, because I may not seek out a fight, but I will never back down from one. And then the DM steps in, and takes my side by saying that the fight with the fanatic was not one we could talk our way out of, and that the other player had been talking for 30 minutes in a row, and that they had interrupted ME several times, and that I had only asked them nicely which in no way warranted them biting my head off. I'm glad to say that the fighting stopped right there(apparently having the DM state that they were categorically wrong on EVERY point really took the fight out of them), and the player has since toned down the rage.
although we have actually watched your videos in game, it might be something we did while Gamemaster was setting up the next scene, so we did to where everyone could watch. Still love that episode about Scott Brown Properties. Also live in Texas and its hilarious of a concept!
How come the dude-player went without his Ramones shirt this time? That was surprisingly distracting!
Try having a gamemaster who is the Willfully Ignorant player. I was in a Pathfinder game recently and THAT was a problem. Not to mention not remembering what was going on or was is PRESENTLY going on. AUGH!
"There-Not There" is a big problem at my table, unfortunately. Especially with phones. I intend to enact some new rules in 2018 about being on your phone while you're in any scene.
Depending on where you play, you could rule that all cellphones have to be placed on a table away from the gaming table.
@@Orenady
We got a guy who's phone is constantly ringing...
The dice thrower, our variant of the Rage Monster. Easily the most annoying.
Followed by our "Willfully Ignorant, There But Not There" combo.
Before Mike was Mike, he was simply "Player 1". Before Dweebles was Dweebles, he was simply "Player 3"... But Todd is always Todd!
Hello sir, as always, I enjoy your videos. I was hoping you might be able to fix the shifting focus of your camera in future videos, I know it's minor, as your words are much more important, but I found it very distracting.
I look forward to your next video!
Happy Holidays!
I have two steamrollers that constantly try to steamroll each other at times! Sometimes I forget I have a group of 5. Great vid Seth!
I’ve been around all of these but the rage monster XD. But mainly steamrollers...
In board gaming circles, the Co-op genre (games where the players team up to beat the game, examples are Pandemic and Arkham Horror,) has their version of the Puppet Master, called the Alpha Gamer. He's often the veteran of the game, and knows the best strategies. But he also will start dictating to the players what they should do, and saying that if you aren't doing as he says, that you aren't helping the team win. It's a deeply frustrating situation.
8:50
That's one epic dice tower
I'm going to show my players your videos. That way it makes my GM job easier.
How did that work out for you? Mine tend to ignore videos or forget to watch them.
Hahahaha!!! The first skit had be rolling!!! I love your videos!
We have a sort-of solution for steamrollers/puppet masters in the homebrew rules an old mate has been putting together over the last 20 years. You get to choose from a few traits for each of your characteristics, and one of the traits for Intelligence is called "resourceful". If you have that trait other players are allowed to give you hints and tips when you're stuck and asking for some help. It's not automatically something players take because the other traits all bring their own nice benefits.
Not that it always stops the resident "teleporter" from somehow being where there's a promise of action but it does keep it down.
I do have trouble focusing sometimes. When I have issues focusing I have a coloring app that I pull up.
Self-admission: I mostly ever attack with spells, and the few times I have to use a weapon I panic and I act exactly as you described the "don't learn the rules guys" XD now I've written down clearly all my bonuses so I don't do that anymore, it was so embarrassing XD
I'm a month late, but here's one you coulda put in here.
The Omniscient Player
Usually found in new players to tabletop adventure games, this is what happens when a Steam Roller and a Puppet Master come together in one package. They constantly dictate what happens giving the other players no time to enjoy themselves and when their character is not present for something they use the information that they should not know regardless. From personal experience, it gets frustrating as hell when this player while super excited to play starts dictating how everyone else plays. Even more so when they go off to a library to learn some history but then when the rogue goes off to the apothecary to get some special poison for their own personal task, and in the process acquires a plot item, the omniscient player suddenly has an interest in alchemy and needs to have the same, even though there was no prior discussion and know skill points were spent in the skill, going as far as to point out the bottle on the shelf exactly... In all fairness, I was a new DM/GM at the time with only one other campaign under my bet, but it's still annoying.
Great Video Seth! Have you ever had a player that used there character to make everyone uncomfortable at the table? There was a game I was playing in and this guy who shall remain nameless who at every opportunity would try and put his and other peoples character's in weird perverse situations. Or try and do things that everyone at the table agreed that we where not going to do like enslave people in a party of good characters. He displayed some traits like the steamroller but had a little something extra messed up going on!
Thats the kind of player that needs a stern talking to or a boot to the head. I haven't put up with that personally, but I have heard stories.
In my campaign, the party was hired by a merchant named Bothaar to kill a bandit who had been harassing his caravans. One of the characters, Yaromil, was married to Bothaar's daughter. When they returned for their reward, one of the characters, Gornjolf, groped Bothaar's daughter and a fight ensued between the players. Due to a critical fail, Gornjolf accidentally killed one of Bothaar's nearby business partners and was arrested by the local authorities. He then had a trial by combat against a manticore and managed to survive, and now there is a lot of tension between Yaromil and Gornjolf in game and out of character.
Ah yes the infamous Jizard
Thank you for defining the willfully ignorant player. We have a particular offender of that version. He never knows any of his modifiers or skills at the beginning of the session "Roll for attack" "Yes" stares at dice* "Which one is it?". Later on he get annoyed when people just puppet master him/tell him how his character works cause his turn in combat takes 10+ minutes. To hit something, roll damage and move.
How do you improve this situation? What to say?
Ouch - the Willfully Ignorant character hits hard! 1.5 years & a certain PC still doesn't remember... It can be horribly frustrating to explain the basics (again).
This comes home. There's someone in our group who has at least three of these behaviors. They're never going to be corrected but they're intensely frustrating and time-wasting for even the most even-tempered of the rest of us, at times. The dice-stacking behavior in this case is just one aspect of severe OCD that affects all of their interactions with the group - particularly the eternal demands for exact mapping and detailed place-naming information, though we are rarely in worlds where maps are more than notional "here there be dragons" concepts.
One of the GMs once tried to deal with part of this by running an a SF setting where all star systems where the same travel time apart from each other. Was somewhat helpful!
I will admit to forgetting how many of my favourite spells work basically every time, but I do try to mitigate the problem with fancy cheat sheets with all the info on them, that I wrote there myself to hopefully aid in my memory.
It still takes longer than needed to read through my own notes every time, and I can't just "do it before your turn" because I'm focusing on what else is happening, but it's better than hitting up a frickin' wiki during my turns.
Unfortunately it seems I have a very poor memory for what numbers or rolls go where. :c
A player type I've gotten quite a few times, The Blank Slate. They give the bare basics of a character, which is fine, but then refuse to develop their character at all, then complains about not getting as involved when they make no effort to do anything but the bare basics. Even given opportunities to shine and do something personal, they opt out.
Do you have names for these characters? If not, I'd like to submit: Urban Cowboy, DudeBro the Magnificent, and Dweebles.
While it took six months to happen, Dweebles has officially been adapted as that character's nickname in a video.
Urban Cowboy is Mike, DudeBro is Todd. Dweebles evidently had a real name, but now it may never be known.
And... dweebles is canon.
My husband, may he rest in peace, both introduced me to D&D and caused me to become a DM and was my first and most favorite murder victim. The thing was that we were both introducing new players to D&D. I would let the new player's stupidity bring them within a point or two of death in the game and then his player would try to save them and either succeed through good play or (possibly) die in the attempt. Either way, the lesson was never forgotten and my players both play with me and fear me to this day...I have never had occasion to kill any of them; they have made it by the skin of their teeth. But still, they flat-out panic because one day, I am going to take somebody down.
Really informative video. I've definitely run across a couple of those. Even when running a pokemon campaign I had a player absolutely lose it and accuse me of cheating because he misread what his move actually did.
the "this plan failed because of all of you and i am not at fault at all" and the "that obvious mistake was totally planned and i'm never going to let you forget, even years later, i totally planned that and it was not at all a mistake. Totally planned"
Always good Seth, keep it up.
Ohhh Poor Todd. I don't think I ever saw the ending bit till now, and I genuinely feel for him lmao
My god, the stacking dice thing. One of my players, by will of the group, is only allowed to have one die at a timr
LOL!
I'm tempted to do that!
I am guilty of being number 3 so much, I constantly forget my barbarian rage bonuses
So, your barbarian was basically a really nice guy? ;)
(don't make me angry; you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...)
"Plenty More Mr. Nice Guy!"
This has helped me notice some of my own tendencies that I should keep in check. I can be domineering at the table and should dial it back and keep things fun. Bad positioning in combat makes me crazy, but I need to let that go sometimes.
The work-around for the "willfully ignorant" is online character sheets, and virtual tables, with macros. You can't forget to add your +2 bonus, when it's already factored into the roll.
If you've got a "rage monster", just boot 'em from the group. Don't fudge it. Tell 'em why, and that you don't enjoy having them around.
Love the Christmas Cthulhu in the background.
Love your skits, so fun!
Hello I'm a slow burn rage monster, but I'm trying to calm it down and address problems earlier.
'address problems earlier' as in 'shorter fuse'?
Lol nope just tackle any issues earlier when they are small and easier to discuss instead of letting them simmer and build up and then exploding.
Yeah, I actually hulked out on our party's rogue (he constantly fucking rules lawyered against the GM in games & slowed shit down, needled me & what I wanted to do with my character & generally acted like a pest) so when I did light him up, I wish I hadn't.
Just made everybody uncomfortable which sucked.
I tend to build the dice towers, but mostly because I need to do something else in order to listen to the DM. But I've found that using my fidgetcube is just better, so I don't get distracted by something worse, like doodling comics D:
Dude, great vid. Nice list and awesome insights.
But really... You could try to control that auto-focus on your cam. The constant change kinda gave me the heebie-jeebies.
I’m new to D&D and this gave me some decent insight as to what not to do, thanks
Why have I not seen these videos before? THEY'RE SO GOOD!
Funny...
The party of 8 I am mastering has all of them, and one checks for 4 out of 5 alone. Total of 17 if counting doubles.
Someone wanna trade? Got lot of doubles
Sounds like it's easier to just count up the ones that don't apply... ;)