Is it just me or is it that anytime the dotnet team speaks about WASM, people are generally angry. But when another framework discusses it, it's accepted as a revolutionary tech.
I think it's because Blazor WASM ships the entire .NET runtime to the user's browser, which is why it performs so poorly. The Flutter team considered porting the entire Flutter Engine to WASM, but decided against it because they concluded that it wouldn't be performant. One team made better long-term technical decisions than the other.
@@_____case They are still technically shipping the Flutter Engine (Skia) + Framework with the bundle even in wasm, as you can see in the slides 15:00. The main difference is in the Dart's GC. Flutter does not ship the entire Dart GC runtime. They waited for the WASM's GC feature to stabilise and then used the WASM GC instead of shipping the entire Dart GC runtime with the app, Which saves a lot of overhead and bundle size. Blazer ships the .NET GC with the app, and it also uses the DOM instead of drawing pixels to the canvas like flutter, That's why it's very slow and heavy.
I do see that the team does solve some accessibility bugs. Especially there are a few contributors that tend to author most of them and I am grateful for their work. At the same time, there are wcag breaking bugs that has been open for years. So there is still further work to do on accessibility in Flutter.
There's a proposal to add an accessibility tree to non HTML apps, basically like a cloned HTML tree of the canvas app, which would then be indexed for search engines
Question to speaker. Can we expect dart isolates in web after migration to Wasm? I can compile multithreading C++ code to Wasm, why I can't compile multithreading dart code?
Currently Wasm is limited to sharing linear memory between workers - there is no way to share Wasm GC structs. We could add some support for isolates but all communication would require copying. There is a proposal under discussion to add shared memory to Wasm GC - but it would take some time before that's ready and available in browsers.
@@kevmoo OMG i got a response. 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 probaly using two laptops of same config running same project with different renderers Thanks Man🤗🤗🤗🤗 I'm a flutter Developer from India
@@kyleaustin2728 have an seo landing page and redirect to the web app dashboard. People really over optimize for this problem imo. But youre welcome to have a different perspective :)
@@kyleaustin2728 just add a landing page with SEO and then put redirect to the webapp. Google Drive doesn't have SEO indexing for their apps. Why would any other webapp need SEO indexing?
Every single time I hear Flutter pitch speech stuffed with benchmarks putting Flutter in a spotlight, I swear, every single time I immediately follow one of the example app links and end up with a janky app with terrible UX. Oh, let me try this text input field - keyboard appears and app yeets you to another dimension and text input is nowhere to be seen. I'm talking about Material 3 app mentioned on the slides. I love Dart lang, I'd really love using it for web development, but this whole "Flutter for web" narrative is just one big lie.
Great Talk Kevin! Flutter is the best Wasm UI Framework!!
Great speaker. Did not expect a Pitch Meeting reference. Tight.
Yes! 6 hours after posting. You have made my day. 🙏🤣
Subtle references to internet culture in a technical presentation are TIGHT!
The dream is getting closer and closer to being realized. #flutter #web
wet dream you mean ? or SEO dream ?
@@tomjones8293 why keep asking for SEO where that is not really the focus of the product. smh
Kevin you are great! Thank you flutter team for your hard work ❤
Great job Kev, really excited for the Flutter/WASM future
Great talk .
Waiting for this since an Year. He is evloved now like a Pokemon
Is it just me or is it that anytime the dotnet team speaks about WASM, people are generally angry. But when another framework discusses it, it's accepted as a revolutionary tech.
Because microsoft is anti consumer
I think it's because Blazor WASM ships the entire .NET runtime to the user's browser, which is why it performs so poorly.
The Flutter team considered porting the entire Flutter Engine to WASM, but decided against it because they concluded that it wouldn't be performant.
One team made better long-term technical decisions than the other.
@@_____case They are still technically shipping the Flutter Engine (Skia) + Framework with the bundle even in wasm, as you can see in the slides 15:00. The main difference is in the Dart's GC. Flutter does not ship the entire Dart GC runtime. They waited for the WASM's GC feature to stabilise and then used the WASM GC instead of shipping the entire Dart GC runtime with the app, Which saves a lot of overhead and bundle size. Blazer ships the .NET GC with the app, and it also uses the DOM instead of drawing pixels to the canvas like flutter, That's why it's very slow and heavy.
The hate is real.
@@_____casePoorly?
Very excited!
Wonder how accessibility works if everything is just canvas rendered.
Oh they use a DOM twin. Man.. The amount of engineering that has gone in to this is wild.
Currently yes but in the future their working with the Chrome team on a proposal for adding new accessibility APIs for non html apps
Everything will be translated I guess.
I do see that the team does solve some accessibility bugs. Especially there are a few contributors that tend to author most of them and I am grateful for their work. At the same time, there are wcag breaking bugs that has been open for years. So there is still further work to do on accessibility in Flutter.
this is a treat
Am I the only one seeing errors with "else if" that is the same as the first "if" statement which will never be used by developers in any code?
WE wanted performance over WEB and over power react js
4:37 Are you going to use a matrix for the logic in the next verision 🤣
Do it will support SEO?
Prediction: In the not-too-distant future, SEO will also involve AI that consume the rendered pixels, rather than parsing the HTML alone.
dont think so. think of it like an app and not like a website
There's a proposal to add an accessibility tree to non HTML apps, basically like a cloned HTML tree of the canvas app, which would then be indexed for search engines
@@jhonyhndoea thumbs down.
@@kyleaustin2728 Someone did not watch the video... Click this: 12:42
Awesome
Question to speaker. Can we expect dart isolates in web after migration to Wasm? I can compile multithreading C++ code to Wasm, why I can't compile multithreading dart code?
Currently Wasm is limited to sharing linear memory between workers - there is no way to share Wasm GC structs. We could add some support for isolates but all communication would require copying. There is a proposal under discussion to add shared memory to Wasm GC - but it would take some time before that's ready and available in browsers.
there is no WEB APP for Superlist i guess
There absolutely is!
"Super easy, barely an incovenience" ~ Ryan Goerge
I see what u did there.
Btw, the speech was tight.
🫵🫵🫵😂
Google is that hard to have SEO friendly web/website app in Flutter 😢
Someone did not watch the video... Click this: 12:42
Wanted a real-time comparison of the renderers rather than just slides team... Flutter
Real time is tricky running both samples at the same time. We'll have a better demo...in my next talk!
@@kevmoo OMG i got a response. 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
probaly using two laptops of same config running same project with different renderers
Thanks Man🤗🤗🤗🤗
I'm a flutter Developer from India
@@kevmoo Actual we can run two different renderers within VS CODE two instance of chrome
Big Fan pf your work and FLUTTER💌
@@kevmoowhere/when is your next talk, Google IO?
@@zzzyyyxxx that's the plan!
Flutter to go to the moon
Oh yeah, that's going to be great for ads, unblockable as hell and event more intruse.
Ads in web apps? This is for web apps not websites, no one expects to use WASM for apps.
is SEO gonna be totally ignored now?
Why would you need seo for a web app? Web app =/= website
People want one solution so that one app is created in Flutter and can be used as a Website SEO, mobile app etc..
@@hamm8934 Thumbs down.
@@kyleaustin2728 have an seo landing page and redirect to the web app dashboard. People really over optimize for this problem imo. But youre welcome to have a different perspective :)
@@kyleaustin2728 just add a landing page with SEO and then put redirect to the webapp. Google Drive doesn't have SEO indexing for their apps. Why would any other webapp need SEO indexing?
If not html renderer forget about mid-range mobile devices from opening flutter web app
Wouldn't the CanvasKit implementations consume fewer resources? 🤔
@@_____casetrue i tried it for the first time and was shock from the performance
Every single time I hear Flutter pitch speech stuffed with benchmarks putting Flutter in a spotlight, I swear, every single time I immediately follow one of the example app links and end up with a janky app with terrible UX. Oh, let me try this text input field - keyboard appears and app yeets you to another dimension and text input is nowhere to be seen. I'm talking about Material 3 app mentioned on the slides. I love Dart lang, I'd really love using it for web development, but this whole "Flutter for web" narrative is just one big lie.