The rosewood contra has so many issues that the Blashaus company actually offers an "optimization" service for it where they redo the keywork, relocate tone holes, and add new vents to the bell.
I played on a Selmer for years while at uni, and learned a thing or two about these horns in the process. Once one goes out of alignment, you’re usually on your own with what you can come up with for field mods lmao. Even mid size unis can struggle to justify specialist repairs on these instruments, let alone small unis or public schools. Even when they’re in decent working conditions, you usually need a golden reed to get the job done properly. That’s a tall order in itself, with the lack in finer precision manufacturing for contra reeds (compared to smaller horns) and the reeds themselves just being so large. Good luck adjusting yours as needed (I usually toss mine the moment they become inadequate. Despite their costly nature, it began to not be worth the headache for me). You also have to get used to the inherent design quirks of the horn, such as the throat tone resistances being wildly off from the rest of the horn’s ranges due to their tone hole location at the metal upper bend of the neck instead of on the main body. This also causes a distinct voicing issue in crossing the register break, resulting in often broken or delayed note onset between G#-C# (if you can even get them to respond in a timely manner in the correct register). It can be hard to determine whether this is a reed, horn, or player issue without proper guidance from a trained player, of which there are few. Imo, the bore design of the Selmer is conducive for targeted register play but it is not designed to be a well rounded horn overall. The clarion and chalumeau ranges sound lovely (very cello/string bass like respectively), but the throat/register break is atrocious. There’s something about the tone holes located on the metal bits and bore bends that needs to be reworked. I think part of the problem is that the bore is too big on these horns tbh. Hopefully this is useful for any contra players poking around here lol.
Another problem with all plastic bodied instruments is the amount of thermal expansion/contraction plastics (especially ABS resin and similar resins) have in all directions with temperature changes compared to wood which expands/contracts widthways with humidity changes and metal is the least affected by both temperature and humidity. That means the long key rods and any keywork on plastic instruments needs some lateral play between the pillars relative to the length of the key rods, so a plastic instrument the length of a BBb contrabass clarinet will need around 2mm of end play in the longest key rods to be sure it will play in the coldest conditions, which is expected for school or college bands who do a lot of playing in adverse conditions. That wouldn't be a problem with an all metal contrabass clarinet in either paperclip or straight form as both the body tube and keywork is made of metal. With wooden instruments, the lateral play needs to be in the keys that run across the grain as the keys running the length of the instrument aren't affected by humidity change as wood shrinks and swells widthways rather than lengthways - that's why you'll find oboes often have trouble with the forked F vent mechanism, low C#, Eb and the lower 8ve vent as they run across the body and the pillars move in and out which will cause these keys to bind up if they've not been given some lateral play. I was sad when Leblanc (France) was dissolved as to me, Leblanc were one of the most daring companies that made clarinets with unique keywork (until the '90s when they ditched the classic inline side/trill keys on their high end models) as well as one of the last French makers to offer all manner of keywork options instead of just the LH Ab/Eb lever. It's a shame they didn't update their basset horns, bass, contra-alto and contrabass clarinets as they got left behind in their mechanical design when both Selmer and especially Buffet totally redesigned their basses.
A number of years ago, I ordered a Leblanc paperclip contra-bass from a local music store. I was told that the factory in France had burned down. After a while I received a black Leblanc paperclip that had been made in Kenosha, Wisconsin. A few months ago, I sold it on consignment.
I play the plastic long “Vito” and it is not that bad. Yes the case is long but with the seats down in my SUV, it fits for travel. Also, while I would love to have a paper clip/low C model, the linkages on my tall plastic model are not as delicate. I also play contrabassoon and you need to be careful when handling paper clip style instruments. High school band usage would be very rough on a paper clip contrabass clarinet. It would be nice if both the tall plastic version and metal paper clip were still available. I see there is a paper clip style contrabass clarinet (low C) available from a Chinese manufacturer that I might try someday. I am sure it will need adjustments but my tall Leblanc contrabass needed to go to the shop too when it first arrived. The complicated three register key system was way out of adjustment when it arrived.
I was wondering this for years, so I’m so happy to hear someone else confirm it! I am very interested in the possibility of Conn-Selmer bringing the paperclip model back. I’ve played a rosewood contrabass a few times, and it’s an amazing instrument, but it definitely has it’s issues.
I want to add something to my previous post. When someone is playing the E-flat Contra Alto clarinet in a High School or community band, that person is usually playing tuba parts. It is frustrating for that player whenever a low concert F1 or E1 is required (and that clarinet can only go down to an F-sharp1). This is one of the reasons why Low C needs to be on clarinets larger than the Basset Clarinet in A. If Low C was on the Contra Alto Clarinet, that instrument would be able to play an E-flat1.
I've played a Leblanc 342 (the straight metal one that comes apart in half that Bret mentions here) for around six years with my local band, and yes, it's very true - you *will* annoy the trumpets, horns, percussion - anyone that has to sit behind you. I've got a trick for other very-long-contra players, especially if you switch mid-concert to higher horns: you can buy these heavyweight plastic cups that are designed as bed risers - I use these to add five inches to the height of the music chair I'm in when I go to contra. I'd love to see the paperclip make a comeback! It would be much more convenient to play and move, if nothing else - and short enough that I could put it on a neckstrap and play it sitting at the same time, like I do for bass. There is one thing, though, that I would hope they change if they come back to the paperclip design - the bell is undersized. On all their contrabass clarinets - they used (still use, for the Vito) a bass clarinet bell. A lot of the complaints that bandmasters / composers have, about the lower chalumeau notes on the contra descending into a sort of reedy rattle, could be cleaned up with a bell that's been scaled properly for a contrabass. This would look a lot like the bell in use on the (staggeringly expensive) Selmer 41 - the flare and dimensions of that bell are just about right for pushing more of the low overtones of the clarinet into the room. As it is now, though, the bell on my 342 is roughly the equivalent of taking my bass clarinet and shoving a trumpet straight mute into the bell. So I really hope they take a good look at that part of the horn when they're considering restarting production!
@@shedcrawler2883 Good to know, I had heard that the 41 had intonation issues, and it doesn't entirely surprise me that they have misplaced toneholes on the bell. I've just finished the CAD models for a new bell + extension to written B for my Leblanc 342, and while I am using a similar flare curve to the Selmer 41, the overall length of the bell came out significantly shorter (so the flare of the bell & end of bell is pushed further towards the mouthpiece end of the horn, there's less bell left after the final tonehole). Will report back once I finish the 3D printing and am able to check the intonation in practice with the finished bell.
I think that it is a BIG mistake for any manufacturer of the larger clarinets (alto, bass, contra alto, and contrabass) to make them only go down to low e-flat. These instruments all need to go down to low c. I experienced this while playing both the bass clarinet and the contra alto clarinet.
THATS WHAT IM SAYING like even for the bass clarinet if it could come apart for like the cheaper marching instruments i would have a much easier time carrying around the instrument, but tbh ill probably just practice the contrabass clarinet after school if i really wanted to practice it but like its annoying because my district is weird and the high school i go to doesnt have a band so we have to bus from another school with a band, luckily the band hall doesnt close for awhile because the directors are there for a long time but man if only i could just bring it home
To be fair, Vito made the mistake first by choosing the straight model to make in plastic, inadvertently cheating the instrument of the bottom note(s), and then making it all in one piece.
A full-metal straight Low C contrabass in the shape of the Selmer Paris and detachable in the middle would've still been far more practical, less bulky and much more durable than any current production model except the Eppelsheim(if you're prepared to dish that sort of money for one!)
I’m sure the range limitation wasn’t inadvertent. Like most large-scale manufacturing operations for instruments in the current market, it was likely a question of practicality. Companies eventually stopped making full boehm horns as standard offerings (in the US) because most players didn’t take to them, and it was more cost effective to stick to the standardized 6 ring boehm keywork to low E that we recognize today. I’d say it’s the same for contras, at the time it was likely most cost effective for Vito-Leblanc to stick with a reduced keywork contra than to make 2 or 3 versions after the merge, considering the equipment that would have been located at the US plant (not saying this was the best decision or the best reading of the market or player’s needs, but I don’t have the company’s finance sheets or paper trail of why the French division was shuttered either).
With only 3000 BBb paperclips made, it was an ordeal to track one down. Pricey to purchase. Months to get overhauled and replated. The total price tag is not cheap, but certainly more within reach than an Eppelsheim. It requires finding skilled, experienced people and a whole lot of patience.
I do want to argue against the last point - I don’t think it’s a big deal that the Vito’s don’t go to Low C. Yes, Low C Basses are becoming more standard, but then again, I guarantee bands are not only going to play pieces where the bass clarinets only play below Eb. (or at least require the notes.) After all, that’s not good composing, even more so for contrabass, because the notes will be very difficult to distinguish. That said, the other two point are valid. Good vid!
I was also wondering about that. The paperclip is compact and has a fantastic sound. However, there might be some issues with robustness and maintenance effort. So probably it would need some improvements. But I also think that it is the favorite of many players.
2:49 That looks just like the contrabass at the music store I go to, except theirs is Accent (the same brand as my bass). 4:15 Good thing this one has the body come in two parts so it can fit in a case that is about the size of a baritone saxophone's. The side effect is that it's difficult to put the two halves together due to it's size and weight, and even more taking it apart. 6:24 With me being 5'4", The mouthpiece of their contrabass is about the right height for me when I'm standing. 10:33 It would be interesting to see paperclip models with the straight parts made out of wood/plastic to match the other clarinets, don't know if they would play any better.
I play the vito contra on the daily. I can't stand how the paperclips look but I agree that if they were modernized they would be objectively better. I can transport the vito fine (physically and in my car) but I do remember laughing at the small female players walking around lopsided and struggling to push open doors lol. Hopefully they do bring it back, there isn't enough R&D in the music world!
I think the Eppelsheim might be the answer to that(the price tag is another story), it's wrapped like a bari/bass sax and is about the same height as a Low C bass clarinet. and I hope they'll eventually offer their own EEb contra-alto/great bass/subbass to Low C to compete with the much bulkier existing models!
@@jmwoods190 yeah ive seen the eppelsheims before; pretty cool! unfortunately the most ive spent on an instrument is like $300 and those are like 100 times that lol; hopefully someday we'll live in a world were that type of contra is commonplace and cheap!
I'm sorry, I would not give a paperclip bass clarinet to anyone less than a high school senior that has been playing for several years. They are incredibly delicate and very difficult to regulate and repair. I own one. You have to be taught how to just pick it up out of the case. If you aren't careful and pickit up by one of the many crossover levers, well it's back off to the shop and your repairman will grow to hate you more each time he sees it. The 3 vent register key mechanism is the most complex of any woodwind. The paperclips are wonderful to play, but they should only be given to careful experienced players.
The rosewood contra has so many issues that the Blashaus company actually offers an "optimization" service for it where they redo the keywork, relocate tone holes, and add new vents to the bell.
I played on a Selmer for years while at uni, and learned a thing or two about these horns in the process. Once one goes out of alignment, you’re usually on your own with what you can come up with for field mods lmao. Even mid size unis can struggle to justify specialist repairs on these instruments, let alone small unis or public schools.
Even when they’re in decent working conditions, you usually need a golden reed to get the job done properly. That’s a tall order in itself, with the lack in finer precision manufacturing for contra reeds (compared to smaller horns) and the reeds themselves just being so large. Good luck adjusting yours as needed (I usually toss mine the moment they become inadequate. Despite their costly nature, it began to not be worth the headache for me).
You also have to get used to the inherent design quirks of the horn, such as the throat tone resistances being wildly off from the rest of the horn’s ranges due to their tone hole location at the metal upper bend of the neck instead of on the main body. This also causes a distinct voicing issue in crossing the register break, resulting in often broken or delayed note onset between G#-C# (if you can even get them to respond in a timely manner in the correct register). It can be hard to determine whether this is a reed, horn, or player issue without proper guidance from a trained player, of which there are few.
Imo, the bore design of the Selmer is conducive for targeted register play but it is not designed to be a well rounded horn overall. The clarion and chalumeau ranges sound lovely (very cello/string bass like respectively), but the throat/register break is atrocious. There’s something about the tone holes located on the metal bits and bore bends that needs to be reworked. I think part of the problem is that the bore is too big on these horns tbh.
Hopefully this is useful for any contra players poking around here lol.
I recently got a contra alto and it plays fine, I just sqeak alot
Another problem with all plastic bodied instruments is the amount of thermal expansion/contraction plastics (especially ABS resin and similar resins) have in all directions with temperature changes compared to wood which expands/contracts widthways with humidity changes and metal is the least affected by both temperature and humidity. That means the long key rods and any keywork on plastic instruments needs some lateral play between the pillars relative to the length of the key rods, so a plastic instrument the length of a BBb contrabass clarinet will need around 2mm of end play in the longest key rods to be sure it will play in the coldest conditions, which is expected for school or college bands who do a lot of playing in adverse conditions.
That wouldn't be a problem with an all metal contrabass clarinet in either paperclip or straight form as both the body tube and keywork is made of metal. With wooden instruments, the lateral play needs to be in the keys that run across the grain as the keys running the length of the instrument aren't affected by humidity change as wood shrinks and swells widthways rather than lengthways - that's why you'll find oboes often have trouble with the forked F vent mechanism, low C#, Eb and the lower 8ve vent as they run across the body and the pillars move in and out which will cause these keys to bind up if they've not been given some lateral play.
I was sad when Leblanc (France) was dissolved as to me, Leblanc were one of the most daring companies that made clarinets with unique keywork (until the '90s when they ditched the classic inline side/trill keys on their high end models) as well as one of the last French makers to offer all manner of keywork options instead of just the LH Ab/Eb lever. It's a shame they didn't update their basset horns, bass, contra-alto and contrabass clarinets as they got left behind in their mechanical design when both Selmer and especially Buffet totally redesigned their basses.
A number of years ago, I ordered a Leblanc paperclip contra-bass from a local music store. I was told that the factory in France had burned down. After a while I received a black Leblanc paperclip that had been made in Kenosha, Wisconsin. A few months ago, I sold it on consignment.
I play the plastic long “Vito” and it is not that bad. Yes the case is long but with the seats down in my SUV, it fits for travel. Also, while I would love to have a paper clip/low C model, the linkages on my tall plastic model are not as delicate. I also play contrabassoon and you need to be careful when handling paper clip style instruments. High school band usage would be very rough on a paper clip contrabass clarinet. It would be nice if both the tall plastic version and metal paper clip were still available. I see there is a paper clip style contrabass clarinet (low C) available from a Chinese manufacturer that I might try someday. I am sure it will need adjustments but my tall Leblanc contrabass needed to go to the shop too when it first arrived. The complicated three register key system was way out of adjustment when it arrived.
I was wondering this for years, so I’m so happy to hear someone else confirm it! I am very interested in the possibility of Conn-Selmer bringing the paperclip model back. I’ve played a rosewood contrabass a few times, and it’s an amazing instrument, but it definitely has it’s issues.
To say that i agree would be an understatement
edit: also nice to see this type of thumbnail again
I want to add something to my previous post. When someone is playing the E-flat Contra Alto clarinet in a High School or community band, that person is usually playing tuba parts. It is frustrating for that player whenever a low concert F1 or E1 is required (and that clarinet can only go down to an F-sharp1). This is one of the reasons why Low C needs to be on clarinets larger than the Basset Clarinet in A. If Low C was on the Contra Alto Clarinet, that instrument would be able to play an E-flat1.
I've played a Leblanc 342 (the straight metal one that comes apart in half that Bret mentions here) for around six years with my local band, and yes, it's very true - you *will* annoy the trumpets, horns, percussion - anyone that has to sit behind you. I've got a trick for other very-long-contra players, especially if you switch mid-concert to higher horns: you can buy these heavyweight plastic cups that are designed as bed risers - I use these to add five inches to the height of the music chair I'm in when I go to contra.
I'd love to see the paperclip make a comeback! It would be much more convenient to play and move, if nothing else - and short enough that I could put it on a neckstrap and play it sitting at the same time, like I do for bass. There is one thing, though, that I would hope they change if they come back to the paperclip design - the bell is undersized. On all their contrabass clarinets - they used (still use, for the Vito) a bass clarinet bell. A lot of the complaints that bandmasters / composers have, about the lower chalumeau notes on the contra descending into a sort of reedy rattle, could be cleaned up with a bell that's been scaled properly for a contrabass. This would look a lot like the bell in use on the (staggeringly expensive) Selmer 41 - the flare and dimensions of that bell are just about right for pushing more of the low overtones of the clarinet into the room. As it is now, though, the bell on my 342 is roughly the equivalent of taking my bass clarinet and shoving a trumpet straight mute into the bell. So I really hope they take a good look at that part of the horn when they're considering restarting production!
The bell of the 41 actually creates some problems in the lower register. It's a bit *too* big. Vent holes have to be added to make it more manageable.
@@shedcrawler2883 To be frank, pretty much all of the Selmer low clarinets need a vent hole, but only the Low Eb bass has it!
@@shedcrawler2883 Good to know, I had heard that the 41 had intonation issues, and it doesn't entirely surprise me that they have misplaced toneholes on the bell. I've just finished the CAD models for a new bell + extension to written B for my Leblanc 342, and while I am using a similar flare curve to the Selmer 41, the overall length of the bell came out significantly shorter (so the flare of the bell & end of bell is pushed further towards the mouthpiece end of the horn, there's less bell left after the final tonehole). Will report back once I finish the 3D printing and am able to check the intonation in practice with the finished bell.
I think that it is a BIG mistake for any manufacturer of the larger clarinets (alto, bass, contra alto, and contrabass) to make them only go down to low e-flat. These instruments all need to go down to low c. I experienced this while playing both the bass clarinet and the contra alto clarinet.
THATS WHAT IM SAYING like even for the bass clarinet if it could come apart for like the cheaper marching instruments i would have a much easier time carrying around the instrument, but tbh ill probably just practice the contrabass clarinet after school if i really wanted to practice it but like its annoying because my district is weird and the high school i go to doesnt have a band so we have to bus from another school with a band, luckily the band hall doesnt close for awhile because the directors are there for a long time but man if only i could just bring it home
To be fair, Vito made the mistake first by choosing the straight model to make in plastic, inadvertently cheating the instrument of the bottom note(s), and then making it all in one piece.
A full-metal straight Low C contrabass in the shape of the Selmer Paris and detachable in the middle would've still been far more practical, less bulky and much more durable than any current production model except the Eppelsheim(if you're prepared to dish that sort of money for one!)
I’m sure the range limitation wasn’t inadvertent. Like most large-scale manufacturing operations for instruments in the current market, it was likely a question of practicality.
Companies eventually stopped making full boehm horns as standard offerings (in the US) because most players didn’t take to them, and it was more cost effective to stick to the standardized 6 ring boehm keywork to low E that we recognize today. I’d say it’s the same for contras, at the time it was likely most cost effective for Vito-Leblanc to stick with a reduced keywork contra than to make 2 or 3 versions after the merge, considering the equipment that would have been located at the US plant (not saying this was the best decision or the best reading of the market or player’s needs, but I don’t have the company’s finance sheets or paper trail of why the French division was shuttered either).
@@jmwoods190if they made it detach in the middle 😂
@@nilesloughlin6845 Yes detachable, which is also the case(no pun intended!) for the Selmer Paris!
With only 3000 BBb paperclips made, it was an ordeal to track one down. Pricey to purchase. Months to get overhauled and replated. The total price tag is not cheap, but certainly more within reach than an Eppelsheim. It requires finding skilled, experienced people and a whole lot of patience.
I do want to argue against the last point - I don’t think it’s a big deal that the Vito’s don’t go to Low C. Yes, Low C Basses are becoming more standard, but then again, I guarantee bands are not only going to play pieces where the bass clarinets only play below Eb. (or at least require the notes.) After all, that’s not good composing, even more so for contrabass, because the notes will be very difficult to distinguish. That said, the other two point are valid. Good vid!
I was also wondering about that. The paperclip is compact and has a fantastic sound. However, there might be some issues with robustness and maintenance effort. So probably it would need some improvements. But I also think that it is the favorite of many players.
2:49 That looks just like the contrabass at the music store I go to, except theirs is Accent (the same brand as my bass).
4:15 Good thing this one has the body come in two parts so it can fit in a case that is about the size of a baritone saxophone's. The side effect is that it's difficult to put the two halves together due to it's size and weight, and even more taking it apart.
6:24 With me being 5'4", The mouthpiece of their contrabass is about the right height for me when I'm standing.
10:33 It would be interesting to see paperclip models with the straight parts made out of wood/plastic to match the other clarinets, don't know if they would play any better.
Or even better check out the Eppelsheim contrabass clarinet. (I may not post a link here)
Just make sure your wallet can take the bashing when you actually buy the thing!
I play the vito contra on the daily. I can't stand how the paperclips look but I agree that if they were modernized they would be objectively better. I can transport the vito fine (physically and in my car) but I do remember laughing at the small female players walking around lopsided and struggling to push open doors lol. Hopefully they do bring it back, there isn't enough R&D in the music world!
I think the Eppelsheim might be the answer to that(the price tag is another story), it's wrapped like a bari/bass sax and is about the same height as a Low C bass clarinet. and I hope they'll eventually offer their own EEb contra-alto/great bass/subbass to Low C to compete with the much bulkier existing models!
@@jmwoods190 yeah ive seen the eppelsheims before; pretty cool! unfortunately the most ive spent on an instrument is like $300 and those are like 100 times that lol; hopefully someday we'll live in a world were that type of contra is commonplace and cheap!
nice baroque bassoon :)
Conn Selmers "BIGGEST" mistake
I'm sorry, I would not give a paperclip bass clarinet to anyone less than a high school senior that has been playing for several years. They are incredibly delicate and very difficult to regulate and repair. I own one. You have to be taught how to just pick it up out of the case. If you aren't careful and pickit up by one of the many crossover levers, well it's back off to the shop and your repairman will grow to hate you more each time he sees it. The 3 vent register key mechanism is the most complex of any woodwind. The paperclips are wonderful to play, but they should only be given to careful experienced players.
Yeah, no thank you. I've always wanted to try one, but this seems really annoying to deal with. Still want to try it, however.
They kept the worst instrument coz it was cheaper to make
maybe they chose this instrument because they want to get out of the contrabass clarinet business.