One thing to add: When doing crow's feet, always have unequal length lines in your "v". The side with the longer line is the waste side, so you know which side of the cut to put the saw blade's kerf on. I can mark a 2x4 roughly in the middle, toss it to my apprentice, and he automatically knows which of the 2 is the piece I need before he cuts it. Small tick on the good side, long leg on the waste side.
@@lac1260 It saves confusion. The "x" is usually reserved to denote "stud" or "structural member" in non-framing applications. Can get confusing if there are "x"s left on your material from a previous cut.
I love the craftsman space on UA-cam and this video is such a great example, it's just a bunch of people sharing the lessons they learned along the way trying to help anyone they can really. Props to you.
I use old tried and true method of: Measure, Cut, Curse, Measure, Mark, Cut, and probably Curse some more. Passed down to me thru generations of highly skilled profanitors
In fine woodworking, the EDGE of the mark is the cut line, not the mark itself. That gets you accurate placement even if you're using a pencil, crayon, chalk, or whatever. I use the line-plus-X method: the X is the waste side, and the farthest line edge away from the X is where the edge of board must be after the cut, even if the line itself isn't straight (because I marked it by feel instead of sight). His point about being able to tell the orientation of the mark after you clean up your shop on Friday is why I stopped using tics. Good video.
I am not sure if you have ever considered being a teacher of this craft. There is a shortage of educators, just imagine if you were able to get this into the minds of the youth.....life changing~The videos and information are awesome.
I cannot tell you how useful these precision issue videos are. I work in miniature, so a 32nd of an inch can matter to me. I have looked and looked for someone to talk about exact and precise measurement techniques. Now I have found it. Thank you
Was taught to do a modified crows foot using a small tick as the cut line, and long tick indicating the cut off. The cut guy always know how to interpret the mark and orientation.
Measure Twice, Saw Once. |< is how my old mentor taught me in the cabinet shop. The crowsfoot pointed to the side to cut on. Or if Centered | C | With the vertical line through the --C-- . Good tip is to know the work of how others do theirs and then you can both make same mistakes as each other.
The |< method is great if using a speed square, but when freehand marking, leaving the potential of veering off slightly, it could be easy to mess that up. Obviously, if it’s your work and your shop, you know your system. For example if I accidentally make a mark like \< I know that the bottom point to my “less than” sign is my reference. But someone else may not know that and cut the other point.
I'm a professional boatbuilder building high quality offshore sailing yachts for 40+ years...... That was one of the simplest, and BEST explanations about a seemingly simple, but crucial aspect of building..... anything. Well done! My one criticism is you reminded me of all the OH! S**T! moments I had over the years. Some still hurt :)
This is great for those who have never measured and cut anything in their lives or on the first day on the job as a carpenter intern. For those who have done this for half a dozen times, you will develop your own way to mark and cut accurately in no time. It is so common sense.
I go with a small single tick mark and a small X on one side of it to indicate which side of the mark I want the kerf on. I know it wouldn't matter for construction work, but for nicer stuff, approaching "fine" woodworking, it does. :)
thank you so much for your comment, keeping it straight which side the kerf should be on has always been a problem for me and the best i could do is just say half the distance of the saw blade is about the closet tolerance i can get, REAL PROBLEM sometimes
Being a structural welder fitter, I always use the crows foot. being super tight tolerance I modify it some. Instead of using the tip of the foot as my intended point, I use where the two lines intersect. This allows room to adjust a mark. So if I need to mark at six inches and my initial mark is off by a 32nd or a 16th I can adjust my second mark to intersect precisely at six inches.
I do a P shape with the point being the mark and the O part of the P being the waste side. Its quite quick to do on any square too to mark waste side of the line. That way I get a perfect tick and also what side my kurfs on
I like that idea. The tick mark or V mark has never worked well for me as I often get confused by which was my waste side, I am going to try the P mark.
Wow, this is a video on communications. Not only with other workers but your furure self. If you pick up that board in the future you know where to cut. Brilliant.
Wow, that was very informative! Thanks a ton man! I framed years ago, and now I find myself in the middle of a monster remodel in our house. Nobody ever took the time to explain any of that when I was framing, i started with the tick mark, also got laughed at, and was showed the crows foot. After watching this, I never did it correctly! Lol thanks for taking the time to make and edit a video on this. Any negative comments can go pound sand. Keep on teaching, you've got lots of skill sets!
From a former "cut guy" you get 👍👍 I'm not seeing this stuff taught anymore to the new guys. After a couple weeks a new guy would be shown this stuff by one of the ole heads. Your a great teacher, ALWAYS enjoy your vids.
Great great video, thanks from a 70 year old newbie woodworker. I am a natural mechanic type, nuts and bolts. I have taken up woodworking because I can no longer do motorcycles etc. However, my largest challenge is MEASURING!!!! What I think I have measured doesn't always get transferred to the cut I am trying to make. This method standardizes HOW I make a mark, no matter what, and I at least can't screw that up.
I just watched a bunch of your videos telling us to never measure anything for a perfect fit. Then I watched this one thats 8 minutes telling us how to measure perfectly... and yet they both make perfect sense together. Ain't woodworking fun:)
Yes I’ve seen that before too! Thanks for sharing. I use this style for more than just cut lines. I use it for connecting two points a lot too. So for me it’s more of a one-size-fits-all marking system.
Same. Angled line on the waste side. I do this both in woodworking, and my day job as a sheet metal fabricator. You definitely need more than just a tick mark to find your scribed mark on galvanized steel.
My first vid watching you, but I'm sold. Not only good info, but well examined and explained, with a useful narrative to tie it to real-world use. Welp, I'm sold.
I'm new to woodworking and have watched a few hundred videos in the last few months just to get some exposure to "how it is done". This type of video is FANTASTIC! It is the type of thing that the "old guy" would show you if he was working next to you. Much appreciated!
Jodee, keep this going, i hope it is more than paying your bills. I have subscribed to a lot of woodworking channels and yours is my fave, you knocked off Cam as my fave lol. Stay on the same train of thought, we all know how to hack together a cutting board or table, but its the little things that you bring up that makes a difference. My 2 cents.
It's good to be thinking about this. The most accuracy that can be had from a pencil mark is when your target is not the pencil mark itself, but the unmarked part on the inside point of the v. That point is infinitely adjustable if you don't get it right at first by just adding thickness to one leg of the v or the other . This way the pencil doesn't even need to be sharp, you can get accuracy from a big fat permanent marker in a pinch. Any question about which end is waste is eliminated by an extra pencil stroke on the waste side. Makes for more accurate tick sticking too
Great video on something so easy and important. Knowing which side is the waste side, as mentioned by other comments, is vital. One more thing. A Corollary to Murphy's Law is "Nothing is foolproof because Fools are so ingenious". But again, a great video on such a simple topic...
Excellent...BIG PICTURE...message...Consistency in method and understanding... As for "Best Method" or what to add...Traditional understanding and standardization. Most American woodworkers (even most professionals) have never been taught an ancient method (or several of them) from unbroken or still intact woodworking linages. These by far have the most consistency and brilliance to their modality and meads of layout...case in point...what we use in China, Korea, and Japan as three (of many) excellent examples... Thanks for another great video...!!!
I was taught the crow's foot mark by my dad when I was young. My understanding is that a tick mark might get visually lost if you look away from the piece, but the crow's foot grabs your attention and is hard to mistake. In that sense it has been quite useful to me.
Very informative! Thank you for your dedication! If I may, I would add a quick overview of a tape measure; how to use the hook for inside and outside measurements and why and how to set the kerf for the cut. Then again, it might be too granular of basic for many but would be a good addition on how to mark your cut.
Being just a DIY homeowner with perfection tendencies and doing framing to fine custom woodworking and metalworking in remodeling my home, I use various methods of the framing way with “V” and “X’ to denote waste side and straight tick marks with “leave line or take line” notes on the material. As my material has ranged from stone, concrete block, oak, framing lumber and trim boards I’ve found it necessary to standardize my marks for me and to always stay consistent. Yes I’ve screwed up several times and cut boards short. Good thing remodeling framing needs blocking!! Thanks for the tips and more importantly the film and editing work.
Thank you for this video. I have made the mistake before where I used the single mark and then returned to the workpiece a week later and got it turned around. Your modified crows mark is an excellent way to avoid this issue. Definitely using this idea in the future.
I don't do much wood-working, but I've been both thought and learned and amalgamated in a small tick as the mark, and a feathered out line towards the wasteside.
I started using the crows foot method almost 45 years ago as an apprentice carpenter. Never a question of where the mark is supposed to be. Good video.
I like the way that you explain your way of making the crow foot mark. One thing that I like to do is make the first mark kinda square to the tape measure and the second mark trailing off to the side that will be the waste side of the cut so I'll always know which side the blade will go.
I do the good old tick mark. But when I go to make a cut if I had put the workpiece down for a time, I always check the marks before cutting. So far it works for me. I think I'll try your modified crow's foot on my next project. Thanks. I also have the same pencil you're using. I love it, bought two of 'em.
Hi Jodi! Thanks for the video. It is super useful to hear from experts when I am an amateur. Will follow you as I like the way you communicate. Thank you
I love your way of explaining things - clearly you spent the time and composed all your videos with a LOT of thought behind them. One method that I use is not use the point of the crows foot - but use the crotch. I designate the waste side by a longer stroke. IF I measured wrong - on my second (or third) check - I can move the crotch of the "V" (white point) quite a bit. I do markup with a sharpie and can get as precise an indicator as to where to cut as a .5mm lead pencil (minus bleed error ;-) ) [on short pieces it is possible to introduce cosine errors I am aware. And DEFINATELY not as quick.. but I am not in any hurry in the shop.]
Watching your video sends me a message that I’m moving from being a total wood hacker to seeking some finesse and skill. This is some quality information. Thanks for sharing!
Really like this video. Working as an electrician I do need to make cuts here and there but not nearly as often as wood workers. That being the case I've never really narrowed down a consistent method when I need to mark cuts, this will help a ton!
Been subscribed for quite a while and look forward to having the time to watch the series that you are putting together. I've used the "crow's-foot" since the teacher in 8th-grade wood-shop taught us how to mark for a cut. Back when "shop" classes were a thing, in the Dark Ages, that is.
Well explained and demonstrated as usual. I’ve only been woodworking for about 2 years. I’ve used a lot of Jody’s recommendations and they’ve served me well. I think this will be another one.
Here are some other considerations 1. left or right blade side saw 2. left or right handed person doing the cutting 3. sight line of the blade- which side of the blade can you see best ? 4. cut the line or leave me the line? 5. with rafter squares now being so common, mark the far edge, middle or near edge or the whole thing? What it comes down to is communication between everyone involved and rules that should be followed and consideration of the equipment being used.
I have a similar method in that I put a small line in-line with the tape with an up line. So basically an upside down T. This has never failed. I do however like the Y (if you will) shown in this video as well. Thank you very much.
Excellent video as always, Jody. I'm not aware of any other woodcraft sites where the host is as down to earth AND shares small details like this that have huge benefits. Thank you.
Interesting, thanks for the video. I always just use a dot and if I'm concerned about finding it again I'll circle it. What I do like about your suggestion is that naturally you'll know which is the waste side, whereas if I pick up the piece later, even with my circled dot, I can't tell since it may be upside down from when i made the mark. I love these tips & tricks, thanks for sharing!
I was taught by my grandfather to always use an arrow (crow's foot). He was an amazingly talented finish carpenter and a highly decorated WWII vet. I always used the arrow whether framing or doing fine detail work but I never really knew if it was a good thing, or just something my Grandfather did. Thank you for this video, it verified how awesome I always knew he was. 😉
Thanks for this thorough and truly beneficial breakdown of something that many of us take for granted, and wind up paying the price for in our own shops. I appreciate your presentation style. You just earned another subscriber.
Very well explained.👍 This should be one of the very first things taught in training at home and at work. I tried to explain this to a home depot guy once and he immediately took it wrong. He still cuts pieces of lumber shorter than asked and they end up in the cull pile.
I'm one of those people who regularly gets this mixed up so this was a really helpful video for me. I like the single point crowsfoot marking and I am going to change to using it. Thanks.
Could have shown what to do in 30 seconds, but great idea giving some background on the system. First I had that "oooohhhh..... that's why everything I cut is off" moment and then right on que, there's the simple solution. Great video.
I also often mark the discard side since you also need to account for blade width. I will need to think through how to marry these ideas together. Great video!
Jody, I have to admit I was flabbergasted by this video. One can so this is so insignificant but boy was I wrong....after I saw your video last night I worked in my shop and what a really great tip....Thanks man
Great job,... it's all about habits acquired. If yr doing rough construction or cabinet making, what's worked for me was the fade tick at an angle, is always to the waste side. Although I have seen many use the x on waste side.... enjoy your videos, thanks!
This was presented very well. As someone with very little experience with anything related to carpentry, this was very enjoyable to watch and made a lot of sense. Thank you for this information. 👍👍
I tend to follow the carpenter’s credo, measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe. I generally use small tick marks then immediately re-mark them with a square but I might try this method. One thing I learned a long time ago is to circle my tick marks so I don’t lose them or end up cutting to a bit of grain or a piece of dirt.
Excellent i felt like i was back in shop class, you do things with a high quality of perfection and i truly enjoy watching and learning. It makes me want to improve my way of wood crafting keep up the great videos I still have room for learning at age 71, And as far as marking i use the beer can method 1 drink 1 mark 2 drinks 2 marks and so on. Hiccup oops.
If you ever want to change careers I think you might want to think about teaching. Every time I see one of your videos I learn something that will make me a better woodworker. Thanks for sharing this. I always look forward to what's next with you. Cheers...Bob
I get that, like you said, this is more for construction and speed, not accuracy (to a certain extent) but when I build furniture, I rarely use my tape measure. Usually measure the first piece with a tape, then build off that piece using it as a reference. So my measurements are determined my other parts of that piece of furniture, not a tape measure or ruler of any sorts. Good information though! I'm sure I'll have a fence or outdoor hut to build one day. I hope I'll remember this trick!
Have always used these principles, didn't stem from woodworking which is my hobie. Started out and still in sheet metal industry, this method is how I was taught to lay out only with a scratch all instead of pencil. That and "keep your pencils sharp" is what I have always been taught I mean makes sense sharper the pencil less margin of error. Great video thanks for sharing.
I like your modified crow's foot, and I will give it a try. I always try to also mark, with a squiggle, which side of my mark I need to cut. When I screw up, it is generally not from misreading my intended mark, but from cutting the wrong side of it.
I tend to press down when i find the spot i want to mark, then make a small tick with feathering. The slight indentation helps when the tick gets smudged or otherwise messed up, but now that I'm learning to weld your method is going to help a lot. Thanks
I have used different methods at different times so consequently my cuts have been off from time to time. I do very much like your method though and I will be employing this type of mark from now on. Thanks for a great video!
Thank you for sharing your technique - This will save me from making many costly errors - my own way was inferior to yours - this is a better approach to get increased accuracy- Glad I watched.
Good stuff! I have relied on the crow's foot for several different applications but I have also encountered my own sloppiness in the intersection when making several marks in a row. Thanks for that technique.
Hi, great presentation. 2 more points... 1- if using a tape measure as you are in your video, make sure that you use the same one when you get back to match the measurement to an adjacent component. The hooks at the end of tape measures are not always the same. That can cause a miss measurement2- sharpness of the lead. You might have a better idea but I use mechanical pencils they’re all over my shop.
My dad uses the original crow’s feet and i used to too but it left room for error with the double points or wide tip. So i switched to the tick marks but still not always accurate. The modified crow’s sounds like a game changer for me. Thanks for this video!
Probably the side point here is don't be afraid to mark up your work copiously. We all use pencil, but it rarely rates the time it takes to erase the marks, and carpenter's pencils don't have erasers in any case. The majority of the time I don't care about the surface, it is going to be painted or won't show. I have all kinds of running commentary on mine. If the surface actually IS critical to leave unmarked, I lay down blue painters tape and have at it. Then when finished, zip! off goes the tape. When it comes to accuracy, ie., framing vs. cabinetry, I find it helps to learn from metalworking, where accuracy is thin lines and careful marking. In this case, a sharp pencil, accurate of use squares, etc, and marking where the kerf goes helps a lot. Finally, I have found you get way better accuracy than just measurement from "trial assembly". For example fitting a cross 2x4 between two studs, I cut about 1" long, then fit the piece over the space it will go and mark it there.
Good infor on you’re way of measuring with crows feet. I also use this method to Mark, however the way you are doing this is more effective and more likely to improve the out come of the project. Thank you for the advice and continue making these informative videos on wood working. Rik
Biggest tip I took away from the video was the idea of setting your pencil to where you want to measure from, and moving he square to it, then drawing a line. I would always try and eyeball it to compensate for the thickness of pencil/marker/chalk, and usually it would go slightly out of line.
I like it. Don't forget to mark the off-cut side. Once you've ruined enough lumber by being 1 saw kerf thickness narrow/short, you'll find that little X a money saver.
Absolutely! I didn't bring up the "x" because I didn't want to focus on all the distinguishing marks one might use for different tasks. Maybe in another video though. Thanks for adding this in here though!
I use the clean split where the lines divide to indicate center. This way if you mark with sharpies you can have a reassured center mark and not worry about the lines being so thick.
You did it right from my p.o.v. The only thing with the pull slash away on both side of tape. Is people do not take the time to see if they are on the same mark line as the top or bottom of tape when they make a mark.
Taught to use the "eagles beak" as called by Sid, the old time Mexican carpenter I learned a lot from in the early 80's. Make the angled leg longer on the waste side. Just like all the other commenters below, lol.
I don't do a whole lot of woodwork, but I've always made a "7" mark. The bottom of the seven is my reference point, and the leg of the seven (or backwards seven) is towards the waste side of the piece. Diagonal upward stroke, with a horizontal stroke at the top. Fast to mark, easy to see where the reference point is with no chance of a doubled pencil line at the bottom, and tells where the waste edge is so I can bias the blade to the correct side of the cut. Works for me, maybe someone else could get some use out of it. Edit: I just saw a comment on down the page that may work even better than mine: A "P" mark, the bottom of the P being the reference mark and the "D" at the top of the "P" being towards the waste side. Probably just as fast, and may be easier to identify at a glance if you're coming back to a piece after a break.
I never mark in the middle of my work piece. I always mark near the edge and the end of my mark that is nearest the edge is my reference. Also, I put an x on the waste side, if super accuracy is required. On the job site I tend to use crows feet, not necessarily for accuracy, but because it makes it easier for me or someone else to find my mark.
I helped cut some lumber for the guy who framed my house. He made the crows foot mark. I yelled out to him what side is the kerf on, his helpers all yell out the right side in unison.
One thing to add: When doing crow's feet, always have unequal length lines in your "v". The side with the longer line is the waste side, so you know which side of the cut to put the saw blade's kerf on. I can mark a 2x4 roughly in the middle, toss it to my apprentice, and he automatically knows which of the 2 is the piece I need before he cuts it. Small tick on the good side, long leg on the waste side.
That's the way I was taught basically. The squared mark is your inside cutting edge, the angle mark points to the scrap side/ cutting side.
I put an “x” on the cut side but the longer leg is a good trick. Might try that
@@lac1260 It saves confusion. The "x" is usually reserved to denote "stud" or "structural member" in non-framing applications. Can get confusing if there are "x"s left on your material from a previous cut.
I WAS wondering why the word "kerf" wasn't brought up even once in the video.
That's the way I do it. Not sure if I was taught that picked it up from someone or just did it on my own.
I love the craftsman space on UA-cam and this video is such a great example, it's just a bunch of people sharing the lessons they learned along the way trying to help anyone they can really. Props to you.
I use old tried and true method of:
Measure, Cut, Curse, Measure, Mark, Cut, and probably Curse some more.
Passed down to me thru generations of highly skilled profanitors
It’s clear you care about helping people. Inspiring, indeed. Keep up the good work(s).
In fine woodworking, the EDGE of the mark is the cut line, not the mark itself. That gets you accurate placement even if you're using a pencil, crayon, chalk, or whatever.
I use the line-plus-X method: the X is the waste side, and the farthest line edge away from the X is where the edge of board must be after the cut, even if the line itself isn't straight (because I marked it by feel instead of sight).
His point about being able to tell the orientation of the mark after you clean up your shop on Friday is why I stopped using tics. Good video.
I am not sure if you have ever considered being a teacher of this craft. There is a shortage of educators, just imagine if you were able to get this into the minds of the youth.....life changing~The videos and information are awesome.
I cannot tell you how useful these precision issue videos are. I work in miniature, so a 32nd of an inch can matter to me. I have looked and looked for someone to talk about exact and precise measurement techniques. Now I have found it. Thank you
Was taught to do a modified crows foot using a small tick as the cut line, and long tick indicating the cut off. The cut guy always know how to interpret the mark and orientation.
Measure Twice,
Saw Once.
|< is how my old mentor taught me in the cabinet shop. The crowsfoot pointed to the side to cut on.
Or if Centered |
C
|
With the vertical line through the --C-- .
Good tip is to know the work of how others do theirs and then you can both make same mistakes as each other.
The |< method is great if using a speed square, but when freehand marking, leaving the potential of veering off slightly, it could be easy to mess that up. Obviously, if it’s your work and your shop, you know your system. For example if I accidentally make a mark like \< I know that the bottom point to my “less than” sign is my reference. But someone else may not know that and cut the other point.
I'm a professional boatbuilder building high quality offshore sailing yachts for 40+ years...... That was one of the simplest, and BEST explanations about a seemingly simple, but crucial aspect of building..... anything. Well done! My one criticism is you reminded me of all the OH! S**T! moments I had over the years. Some still hurt :)
This is great for those who have never measured and cut anything in their lives or on the first day on the job as a carpenter intern. For those who have done this for half a dozen times, you will develop your own way to mark and cut accurately in no time. It is so common sense.
I agree with the exception that "common sense" is really not so common anymore...
I go with a small single tick mark and a small X on one side of it to indicate which side of the mark I want the kerf on. I know it wouldn't matter for construction work, but for nicer stuff, approaching "fine" woodworking, it does. :)
Adam Tuttle that’s what I do
Me 2 for atleast for the dowls jig
thank you so much for your comment, keeping it straight which side the kerf should be on has always been a problem for me and the best i could do is just say half the distance of the saw blade is about the closet tolerance i can get, REAL PROBLEM sometimes
I do the same thing but with a "C" for "Cut." Might start using an X now though since C's are tough to write on rough surfaces
I do the same thing but with an 2 lines in at an angle to indicate which side I want as the finished piece. Looks like this >|
Being a structural welder fitter, I always use the crows foot. being super tight tolerance I modify it some. Instead of using the tip of the foot as my intended point, I use where the two lines intersect. This allows room to adjust a mark. So if I need to mark at six inches and my initial mark is off by a 32nd or a 16th I can adjust my second mark to intersect precisely at six inches.
This is how I have been doing it for years now. The point where the length mark and the waste line intersect is the exact measurement point.
I do a P shape with the point being the mark and the O part of the P being the waste side. Its quite quick to do on any square too to mark waste side of the line. That way I get a perfect tick and also what side my kurfs on
Wow thanks for sharing! I haven't seen that one before!
Also good idea! Especially to highlight the wast side
I was going to ask how to know what side to cut in. That is usually my issue. Thanks for the solution.
I like that idea. The tick mark or V mark has never worked well for me as I often get confused by which was my waste side, I am going to try the P mark.
I like the P and am going to try it. For me I can see the circle as representing the curf. Thanks!! Good video though!
Wow, this is a video on communications. Not only with other workers but your furure self. If you pick up that board in the future you know where to cut. Brilliant.
Wow, that was very informative! Thanks a ton man! I framed years ago, and now I find myself in the middle of a monster remodel in our house. Nobody ever took the time to explain any of that when I was framing, i started with the tick mark, also got laughed at, and was showed the crows foot. After watching this, I never did it correctly! Lol thanks for taking the time to make and edit a video on this. Any negative comments can go pound sand. Keep on teaching, you've got lots of skill sets!
From a former "cut guy" you get 👍👍
I'm not seeing this stuff taught anymore to the new guys.
After a couple weeks a new guy would be shown this stuff by one of the ole heads.
Your a great teacher, ALWAYS enjoy your vids.
I love your video.
I have been doing woodworking for over 40 years and I still learn something each time I watch one of your video.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I’m a sewer and this technique will certainly help me when marking fabric.
Great great video, thanks from a 70 year old newbie woodworker. I am a natural mechanic type, nuts and bolts. I have taken up woodworking because I can no longer do motorcycles etc. However, my largest challenge is MEASURING!!!! What I think I have measured doesn't always get transferred to the cut I am trying to make. This method standardizes HOW I make a mark, no matter what, and I at least can't screw that up.
I just watched a bunch of your videos telling us to never measure anything for a perfect fit. Then I watched this one thats 8 minutes telling us how to measure perfectly... and yet they both make perfect sense together. Ain't woodworking fun:)
Woodworking for me is therapy. I love it. Keep up the humility. Subscription added
I like a crows foot with the angled line on the waste side. Thanks for the video.
Yes I’ve seen that before too! Thanks for sharing. I use this style for more than just cut lines. I use it for connecting two points a lot too. So for me it’s more of a one-size-fits-all marking system.
I was taught a dot with a half circle on the side I pulled from.
Same. Angled line on the waste side.
I do this both in woodworking, and my day job as a sheet metal fabricator.
You definitely need more than just a tick mark to find your scribed mark on galvanized steel.
That's how I was taught to do it so you know where to put the saw blade.
That's a brilliant idea! I've always made the crow's foot, but I've never thought to angle it towards the waste. I'm going to do this from now on
My first vid watching you, but I'm sold. Not only good info, but well examined and explained, with a useful narrative to tie it to real-world use. Welp, I'm sold.
I'm new to woodworking and have watched a few hundred videos in the last few months just to get some exposure to "how it is done". This type of video is FANTASTIC! It is the type of thing that the "old guy" would show you if he was working next to you.
Much appreciated!
Jodee, keep this going, i hope it is more than paying your bills. I have subscribed to a lot of woodworking channels and yours is my fave, you knocked off Cam as my fave lol. Stay on the same train of thought, we all know how to hack together a cutting board or table, but its the little things that you bring up that makes a difference. My 2 cents.
Your video makes me appreciate videos that get to the point.
It's good to be thinking about this. The most accuracy that can be had from a pencil mark is when your target is not the pencil mark itself, but the unmarked part on the inside point of the v. That point is infinitely adjustable if you don't get it right at first by just adding thickness to one leg of the v or the other . This way the pencil doesn't even need to be sharp, you can get accuracy from a big fat permanent marker in a pinch. Any question about which end is waste is eliminated by an extra pencil stroke on the waste side. Makes for more accurate tick sticking too
Great video on something so easy and important. Knowing which side is the waste side, as mentioned by other comments, is vital. One more thing. A Corollary to Murphy's Law is "Nothing is foolproof because Fools are so ingenious". But again, a great video on such a simple topic...
I'm not a carpenter, but I appreciate your precision and logic. I didn't think I would watch this, but it was really well thought out.
Excellent...BIG PICTURE...message...Consistency in method and understanding...
As for "Best Method" or what to add...Traditional understanding and standardization. Most American woodworkers (even most professionals) have never been taught an ancient method (or several of them) from unbroken or still intact woodworking linages. These by far have the most consistency and brilliance to their modality and meads of layout...case in point...what we use in China, Korea, and Japan as three (of many) excellent examples...
Thanks for another great video...!!!
I was taught the crow's foot mark by my dad when I was young. My understanding is that a tick mark might get visually lost if you look away from the piece, but the crow's foot grabs your attention and is hard to mistake. In that sense it has been quite useful to me.
Very informative! Thank you for your dedication! If I may, I would add a quick overview of a tape measure; how to use the hook for inside and outside measurements and why and how to set the kerf for the cut. Then again, it might be too granular of basic for many but would be a good addition on how to mark your cut.
Being just a DIY homeowner with perfection tendencies and doing framing to fine custom woodworking and metalworking in remodeling my home, I use various methods of the framing way with “V” and “X’ to denote waste side and straight tick marks with “leave line or take line” notes on the material. As my material has ranged from stone, concrete block, oak, framing lumber and trim boards I’ve found it necessary to standardize my marks for me and to always stay consistent. Yes I’ve screwed up several times and cut boards short. Good thing remodeling framing needs blocking!! Thanks for the tips and more importantly the film and editing work.
Now this is a tutorial! Well done young man.
Thank you for this video. I have made the mistake before where I used the single mark and then returned to the workpiece a week later and got it turned around. Your modified crows mark is an excellent way to avoid this issue. Definitely using this idea in the future.
You are an extremely clear and efficient communicator. Thanks for the video.
I know a good teacher when I see one and you, sir, are a good teacher. Thanks for the effort that went into this video.
Well said
I also circle my mark so it is easy to find. So it is a vee shape inside of a circle. No mistaking it for a random scratch.
I don't do much wood-working, but I've been both thought and learned and amalgamated in a small tick as the mark, and a feathered out line towards the wasteside.
I started using the crows foot method almost 45 years ago as an apprentice carpenter. Never a question of where the mark is supposed to be. Good video.
I like the way that you explain your way of making the crow foot mark. One thing that I like to do is make the first mark kinda square to the tape measure and the second mark trailing off to the side that will be the waste side of the cut so I'll always know which side the blade will go.
I do the good old tick mark. But when I go to make a cut if I had put the workpiece down for a time, I always check the marks before cutting. So far it works for me. I think I'll try your modified crow's foot on my next project. Thanks. I also have the same pencil you're using. I love it, bought two of 'em.
Hi Jodi!
Thanks for the video. It is super useful to hear from experts when I am an amateur.
Will follow you as I like the way you communicate. Thank you
I love your way of explaining things - clearly you spent the time and composed all your videos with a LOT of thought behind them. One method that I use is not use the point of the crows foot - but use the crotch. I designate the waste side by a longer stroke. IF I measured wrong - on my second (or third) check - I can move the crotch of the "V" (white point) quite a bit. I do markup with a sharpie and can get as precise an indicator as to where to cut as a .5mm lead pencil (minus bleed error ;-) ) [on short pieces it is possible to introduce cosine errors I am aware. And DEFINATELY not as quick.. but I am not in any hurry in the shop.]
Awesome information! I'm sure we all can appreciate your knowledge in carpentry.
Watching your video sends me a message that I’m moving from being a total wood hacker to seeking some finesse and skill. This is some quality information. Thanks for sharing!
Really like this video. Working as an electrician I do need to make cuts here and there but not nearly as often as wood workers. That being the case I've never really narrowed down a consistent method when I need to mark cuts, this will help a ton!
Thanks for the tips, most people do ignore this, but it’s damn crucial.
Been subscribed for quite a while and look forward to having the time to watch the series that you are putting together.
I've used the "crow's-foot" since the teacher in 8th-grade wood-shop taught us how to mark for a cut.
Back when "shop" classes were a thing, in the Dark Ages, that is.
back before the war...
Well explained and demonstrated as usual. I’ve only been woodworking for about 2 years. I’ve used a lot of Jody’s recommendations and they’ve served me well. I think this will be another one.
Here are some other considerations 1. left or right blade side saw 2. left or right handed person doing the cutting 3. sight line of the blade- which side of the blade can you see best ? 4. cut the line or leave me the line? 5. with rafter squares now being so common, mark the far edge, middle or near edge or the whole thing? What it comes down to is communication between everyone involved and rules that should be followed and consideration of the equipment being used.
I have a similar method in that I put a small line in-line with the tape with an up line. So basically an upside down T. This has never failed. I do however like the Y (if you will) shown in this video as well. Thank you very much.
Excellent video as always, Jody. I'm not aware of any other woodcraft sites where the host is as down to earth AND shares small details like this that have huge benefits. Thank you.
Interesting, thanks for the video. I always just use a dot and if I'm concerned about finding it again I'll circle it. What I do like about your suggestion is that naturally you'll know which is the waste side, whereas if I pick up the piece later, even with my circled dot, I can't tell since it may be upside down from when i made the mark. I love these tips & tricks, thanks for sharing!
I don't even work with wood and I love this. Well thought out and logical.
I was taught by my grandfather to always use an arrow (crow's foot). He was an amazingly talented finish carpenter and a highly decorated WWII vet. I always used the arrow whether framing or doing fine detail work but I never really knew if it was a good thing, or just something my Grandfather did. Thank you for this video, it verified how awesome I always knew he was. 😉
Thanks for this thorough and truly beneficial breakdown of something that many of us take for granted, and wind up paying the price for in our own shops. I appreciate your presentation style. You just earned another subscriber.
Very well explained.👍 This should be one of the very first things taught in training at home and at work. I tried to explain this to a home depot guy once and he immediately took it wrong. He still cuts pieces of lumber shorter than asked and they end up in the cull pile.
It's the simple things that matter. Explained and demonstrated very well. 👍
I'm one of those people who regularly gets this mixed up so this was a really helpful video for me. I like the single point crowsfoot marking and I am going to change to using it. Thanks.
Could have shown what to do in 30 seconds, but great idea giving some background on the system. First I had that "oooohhhh..... that's why everything I cut is off" moment and then right on que, there's the simple solution. Great video.
I also often mark the discard side since you also need to account for blade width. I will need to think through how to marry these ideas together. Great video!
Jody, I have to admit I was flabbergasted by this video. One can so this is so insignificant but boy was I wrong....after I saw your video last night I worked in my shop and what a really great tip....Thanks man
Great job,... it's all about habits acquired. If yr doing rough construction or cabinet making, what's worked for me was the fade tick at an angle, is always to the waste side. Although I have seen many use the x on waste side.... enjoy your videos, thanks!
This was presented very well. As someone with very little experience with anything related to carpentry, this was very enjoyable to watch and made a lot of sense. Thank you for this information. 👍👍
I tend to follow the carpenter’s credo, measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe. I generally use small tick marks then immediately re-mark them with a square but I might try this method. One thing I learned a long time ago is to circle my tick marks so I don’t lose them or end up cutting to a bit of grain or a piece of dirt.
Screw what others think or say, I follow your directions with no problem. Keep up yhe good work...
I love your videos! You helped me so much by starting my woodshop! Thank you! 😊 😊😊👍
Excellent i felt like i was back in shop class, you do things with a high quality of perfection and i truly enjoy watching and learning. It makes me want to improve my way of wood crafting keep up the great videos I still have room for learning at age 71, And as far as marking i use the beer can method 1 drink 1 mark 2 drinks 2 marks and so on. Hiccup oops.
If you ever want to change careers I think you might want to think about teaching. Every time I see one of your videos I learn something that will make me a better woodworker. Thanks for sharing this. I always look forward to what's next with you. Cheers...Bob
Thank you for such a kind comment!
I get that, like you said, this is more for construction and speed, not accuracy (to a certain extent) but when I build furniture, I rarely use my tape measure. Usually measure the first piece with a tape, then build off that piece using it as a reference. So my measurements are determined my other parts of that piece of furniture, not a tape measure or ruler of any sorts. Good information though! I'm sure I'll have a fence or outdoor hut to build one day. I hope I'll remember this trick!
Have always used these principles, didn't stem from woodworking which is my hobie. Started out and still in sheet metal industry, this method is how I was taught to lay out only with a scratch all instead of pencil. That and "keep your pencils sharp" is what I have always been taught I mean makes sense sharper the pencil less margin of error. Great video thanks for sharing.
I like your modified crow's foot, and I will give it a try. I always try to also mark, with a squiggle, which side of my mark I need to cut. When I screw up, it is generally not from misreading my intended mark, but from cutting the wrong side of it.
I tend to press down when i find the spot i want to mark, then make a small tick with feathering. The slight indentation helps when the tick gets smudged or otherwise messed up, but now that I'm learning to weld your method is going to help a lot. Thanks
I do like that modified crows foot! Well presented as well.
I have used different methods at different times so consequently my cuts have been off from time to time. I do very much like your method though and I will be employing this type of mark from now on. Thanks for a great video!
Thank you for sharing your technique - This will save me from making many costly errors - my own way was inferior to yours - this is a better approach to get increased accuracy- Glad I watched.
I was taught to a draw a 't' at your indicated mark. It also helps when cutting the material to specific measurements too.
Good stuff! I have relied on the crow's foot for several different applications but I have also encountered my own sloppiness in the intersection when making several marks in a row. Thanks for that technique.
Hi, great presentation. 2 more points... 1- if using a tape measure as you are in your video, make sure that you use the same one when you get back to match the measurement to an adjacent component. The hooks at the end of tape measures are not always the same. That can cause a miss measurement2- sharpness of the lead. You might have a better idea but I use mechanical pencils they’re all over my shop.
YES! I plan on doing a "tape measure" video and covering that same thing. Regardless of the tape, only use THAT tape through the whole project.
My dad uses the original crow’s feet and i used to too but it left room for error with the double points or wide tip. So i switched to the tick marks but still not always accurate. The modified crow’s sounds like a game changer for me. Thanks for this video!
Probably the side point here is don't be afraid to mark up your work copiously. We all use pencil, but it rarely rates the time it takes to erase the marks, and carpenter's pencils don't have erasers in any case. The majority of the time I don't care about the surface, it is going to be painted or won't show. I have all kinds of running commentary on mine. If the surface actually IS critical to leave unmarked, I lay down blue painters tape and have at it. Then when finished, zip! off goes the tape. When it comes to accuracy, ie., framing vs. cabinetry, I find it helps to learn from metalworking, where accuracy is thin lines and careful marking. In this case, a sharp pencil, accurate of use squares, etc, and marking where the kerf goes helps a lot.
Finally, I have found you get way better accuracy than just measurement from "trial assembly". For example fitting a cross 2x4 between two studs, I cut about 1" long, then fit the piece over the space it will go and mark it there.
Good infor on you’re way of measuring with crows feet. I also use this method to Mark, however the way you are doing this is more effective and more likely to improve the out come of the project. Thank you for the advice and continue making these informative videos on wood working. Rik
Really good tip. I'm a beginner and I'm going to try and implement this in my measures. Thanks
I like the partial crowsfoot, good tip.
great tip. been doing it this way since seeing my dad doing in back in the 70s.
Biggest tip I took away from the video was the idea of setting your pencil to where you want to measure from, and moving he square to it, then drawing a line. I would always try and eyeball it to compensate for the thickness of pencil/marker/chalk, and usually it would go slightly out of line.
I like it. Don't forget to mark the off-cut side. Once you've ruined enough lumber by being 1 saw kerf thickness narrow/short, you'll find that little X a money saver.
Absolutely! I didn't bring up the "x" because I didn't want to focus on all the distinguishing marks one might use for different tasks. Maybe in another video though. Thanks for adding this in here though!
Wow, amazing you could get that concept across in only 8 minutes.
I use the clean split where the lines divide to indicate center. This way if you mark with sharpies you can have a reassured center mark and not worry about the lines being so thick.
Can’t tell you how many times I must remeasure. Most excellent tip!
Love that tip! (This is the first video I've watched on this channel, which I heard about from "Gareth's Tips, Tools, and Shop Tales" newsletter.)
Such an important topic that I have never really given a second thought. Really good advice. I’ll be giving the crows foot a go 👍😎🇦🇺
I tried these today and what a difference. 👍😎🇦🇺
It takes a genius to think of stuff like this. Thanks!
You did it right from my p.o.v. The only thing with the pull slash away on both side of tape. Is people do not take the time to see if they are on the same mark line as the top or bottom of tape when they make a mark.
You are an excellent teacher! Keep up the good work.
Taught to use the "eagles beak" as called by Sid, the old time Mexican carpenter I learned a lot from in the early 80's. Make the angled leg longer on the waste side. Just like all the other commenters below, lol.
I don't do a whole lot of woodwork, but I've always made a "7" mark. The bottom of the seven is my reference point, and the leg of the seven (or backwards seven) is towards the waste side of the piece. Diagonal upward stroke, with a horizontal stroke at the top. Fast to mark, easy to see where the reference point is with no chance of a doubled pencil line at the bottom, and tells where the waste edge is so I can bias the blade to the correct side of the cut. Works for me, maybe someone else could get some use out of it.
Edit: I just saw a comment on down the page that may work even better than mine: A "P" mark, the bottom of the P being the reference mark and the "D" at the top of the "P" being towards the waste side. Probably just as fast, and may be easier to identify at a glance if you're coming back to a piece after a break.
I never mark in the middle of my work piece. I always mark near the edge and the end of my mark that is nearest the edge is my reference. Also, I put an x on the waste side, if super accuracy is required.
On the job site I tend to use crows feet, not necessarily for accuracy, but because it makes it easier for me or someone else to find my mark.
Yup, gotta know which side the kerf goes on.
I helped cut some lumber for the guy who framed my house. He made the crows foot mark. I yelled out to him what side is the kerf on, his helpers all yell out the right side in unison.
@@Ijustpiddle My reply to that would have been, "Thanks. I was afraid I would cut it on the wrong side." but I'm a smart-ass...
If you cut on a chopsaw the mark is easier to line up near the center of the piece where the blade contacts the board
@@scottclark798 my chopsaw has a laser