I did the GR research upgrades on the original RP. 600m and it was an enormous difference. Really amazing. Lots of fun to do. I know everybody talks about the frequency response, but the way that these speakers sound staged after the upgrade is unbelievable.
@thegoat164 it's a massive $500 center channel almost every single center channels are horrible normally only good for the person dead center its the problem with centers a bookshelf or tower will always be a better center
Thank you for exposing the inner mind blowing mistakes by some big companies I understand keeping cost down but having all inductors flat and so close is a huge rookie mistake there is no excuse for that. It does not cost anything to orient them properly. You were able to do it with less parts and better. Keep up the good work 💛
Depends on who put the speaker together on my 504c ii everything on the crossover was correctly oriented I checked after seeing this video I always line my speakers with denser material no matter what company but honestly not a bad speaker for $475
Descriptive. Concise. Perfect. It shames me, finally, that I enjoyed a 40 year relationship with my Klipsch Cornwalls. Having replaced them, with something (Arendal) that has far better resolution, I have seen the light. Those Cornwalls really rocked in a small room. With today's open-plan homes, off axis listening is dominated by cabinet noise. Very fatiguing. Very. It had occurred to me that cabinet noise is part of their appeal. In a small room. Anywho, great video, and we really needed it! Thank you!
Danny you are the hero. It is incredible that K... puts out such junk. It took me 2 mins in a listening room to eliminate their product from a speaker column lineup. I told the salesman, this speaker puts out just noise and I played the same tunes thru all speakers via Tidal app they had.
@@shipsahoy1793 Beats headphones seal the deal. Nothing announces to the world that a person is willing to pay for it, but doesn't actually know what good audio is like a pair of Beats headphones on their head 😆
@@ywsx6489 the Klipsch perform great at their price. What's your point? If the others were as popular, they would be getting the same amount of hate. Maybe someone does your particular niche better at the price, but the Klipsch are probably the best theater speakers you'll find at their price and even up to $2000 a pair. Like if you want a room just to watch movies this Klipsch is a good speaker. If you want a room for critical listening I dunno maybe some powered mixing monitors or something.
0:06 yes I can believe it because Klipsch sounds amazing at an affordable price! I’ve never once met a person who listened to my klipsch speakers and said they sound bad… and let me tell you that they were A LOT cheaper than some B&W speakers or whatever… thank you for making this video! I love the work you guys are doing! ❤
@@MrViper7121 your comment makes me think you have the mental age of a 15 year old… if you’re not 15 years old then please have a look at yourself and grow the f up 👍🏼
I'd recommend a "C" stand for your mic situation. It's more expensive and more extreme, but gives you more options and flexibility. It will hold your mic as an unmanned extended boom pole overhead and out of shot, and some extra lighting as well if you need it. They are truly multi-purpose stands, everybody should have at least 1 of them. Cheers 🍻
That comment makes no sense, any speaker you buy has flaws. Have you watched any of his other videos? There are speakers he had to redo costing twice as much as klipsch they were far worse for Sonics.
@@StephenBuck-oo2oxwhen you're talking balance between bass and treble, I'd tend to agree. But, huge suckouts or peaks in response just sound nasty. 60 to 120hz raised by 3 to 6db, or 7 to 15khz raised / lowered a similar amount, gives a speaker a voice. A wide-band tilt to the response does the same. That's a speakers voicing. A 10db hole in the response, smack in the mid band, will just sound coloured, indistinct and bad. Yes, there's more to a good speaker than a flat response. But, Danny listens to his changes as well. Not just a flat line 🤠
There really is...after many years of ownership, I sold my Klipschorns, LaScala's, Hersey II's, Forte's, KLFC7 and now survive on my Klipsch promedia 2.1 for my Klipsch fix...and my old age back and hockey knees couldn't be happier...there is an after life.....😎
There's one thing in having to keep to a parts budget, but good basic design doesn't cost extra. You made a better response using less parts. I think Klipsch must let their apprentices design their cheaper range speakers.....
I love what you're doing with these upgrade kits. The inductor orientation is such low hanging fruit I find that hard to believe that's cost cutting and more laziness. I know they're all built to cost and it's a hard business when it's margin driven.
I paid $339 for my B&W upgrade last year (it's higher now, due to inflation and supply chain shortages). The other day, I went online "shopping" for the same components in the GR-Research kit - it came out to $417 retail (before sales tax), without the solder, wiring and connectors. Basically, you are getting crossovers not even found in $10K+ speakers for dirt cheap. If you are willing to put in the time for the upgrade, this is one of the best bargains in audio!
@@thomasschafer7268 Good for you - maybe these components are a lot cheaper in Germany? I know that groceries are! Here in the US, I simply cannot buy the components of the upgrade kit for less than getting the whole thing from GR-Research.
I appreciate and respect Danny's videos. But, just quickly want to point something out that might help a few people. Starting at 9:53, this is exactly "why" anyone should turn this speaker VERTICAL, if you can simply make room for it. That flips the vertical and horizontal off-axis responses. It's also why many folks recommend using a matching tower as center (LCR), if you have the room. Vertical configuration makes a big difference. Any Klipsch or other MTM Center channel designs will sound much better, especially in terms of off axis response. I've actually commented about that before on this channel. I have 2 Klipsch RP-450C (previous model, identical to 504C) that I occasionally will rotate among other Klipsch systems in the house, and I use them as front main speakers standing vertically on top of subwoofers. Sound is phenomenal in that configuration, especially w/ the 450C's slightly toed in to the shoulders. Even standing vertical on the floor is not bad if you sit low enough, but they're better at ear level. Just tone down the treble a bit, which is standard procedure with all Klipsch. And even with the subs off, these will sound like "small Towers." Ignore the 58 HZ bass spec on the 504C - most room gain and proper placement & wattage will yield lower bass results. The 2.5 way Crossover at 500 & 1,500 can bring out a little better mid-range (vocals/dialogue) than even the 8-inch Klipsch towers that I also have. Bass is stronger on my 8" towers of course, but these centers are no slouch, or especially if using two vertically as mains channels. Hope that might also help someone get more out of these.
@@dannyrichie9743 It would be interesting to hear their engineers/bean counters justify their decision to make a “not quite there” speaker on such a large scale. It seems that even with cheesy parts, they could have done better.
@Stephen Buck The only way responses get deleted around here is if profanity is used, if someone is being disrespectful, or if the post contains false or misleading information.
Likely just 90% marketing 10% R&D. Quickly getting a speaker design with little effort simply to enter a competitive market at a competitive price range but not investing the time to get a high level design into the market place
What's funny is the horn has good dispersion behavior, which must take a lot of development but then they put no effort at all into the crossover. Something has clearly gone very, very wrong.
Agreed. Using an intricate horn design but skimping everywhere else is just nonsense. So it’s basically promoting a horn design to fool consumers that every thing you can’t see is just as intricately crafted in the product and the truth is it’s rather poorly designed.
Oh man, I picked up this speaker about 6 months ago and I was hoping it wouldn't show up in one of your videos, lol. I've noticed in my own living room that the horizontal off-axis is horrible and there was definitely a break in period that my speaker went through. Excellent video and thank you for highlighting this.
It would be an interesting exercise to see if a similar improvement could be made in response and spectral decay using a low cost crossover appropriate for the cost of the speaker. Mainly to show that a balanced solution can be engineered in the context of the speaker’s price point. It does look like the house sound is a hit tweeter. Maybe a switchable tweeter level would be a good upgrade too so people can choose how much of the house sound they want.
@@dannyrichie9743 it would be good to see if it would fit on a similar sized board to the factory one. Then they really have no excuses 🤣 Great work. And shows just how terrible horizontal centre speakers are.
Great video Danny, I’ll have to design a speaker using bells as cones just for you. I feel inspired.😁😁😁😁😁 Yea, I heard the response issues of the previous series too.
I think Klipsch did a great marketing thing when they went to the copper colored woofers. They really make their speakers look good, and for that reason I think Klipsch have become very popular. But looks does not always equal sound quality (though Klipsch is at least decent). The Klipsch LaScala are the speakers I dream about. They look like a piece of furniture, simply awesome in my opinion, and sound great too.
We had a La Scala in many months ago. It was one of the worst measuring speakers that I have ever measured. It also had some of the worst cabinet wall resonances of any speaker that has ever been in here.
@@dannyrichie9743 some people say their big horn speakers are designed with the resonances as part of the target sound...lmao as hard as it is to believe this I would not be surprised. they don't use bracing even on many of their large, expensive speakers.
Klipschhhhhhhhhhh. Grabs your attention when auditioned in the shop I would guess, then the obvious colouration and the crudity of their design drives you insane at home.
this explains why the 404 has slightly better off axis response than the 504. The driver spacing isnt as wide. 404 is good around +/-15 degree. 504 is +/-10 degrees. Pretty narrow.
Oh, I get it. Klipsch is based in HOPE Arkansas. I see what you did there. Clever. Somebody needs to send you a pair of Cornwall IVs or LaScala AL5s or Klipschorn AK6es. That’s what “Klipsch Guys” buy. The rest is just mass-produced consumer gear.
We've had some of those over as well. The LaScala takes the cake so far for the most jacked up response, most cabinet wall resonances, and biggest time delay issues.
I am likely get a lot of heat for saying this but I will say it - Klipsch used to be a very respectable company in the past, at one point they acquired Jamo, once the leading Danish loudspeaker company and one of the most well known in the world of high end speakers, then slowly over the last decade or so ran it to the ground. And now they seem to be doing this to themselves too - making cheap and nasty products and becoming what it seems to be primarily a coin operated company. Admittedly there are still some models worthy of our attention in their product line but those seem to be few and far between. I used to own 2 sets of Klipsch speakers of recent manufacture, both sold now and I moved on from the brand. I do still own a set of Jamo D830 bookshelf speakers from pre-Klipsch era, which I have been unable to match or replace with an alternative. That’s me and my personal experience and I’m sorry if I offended anyone, I just had to get it off my chest.
@Stephen Buck True. And will this raise the bar for Klipsch or lower it for Emotiva? It doesn't matter since there are thousands of speaker brands to choose from.
Same here, about 6 years I moved to Wharfedale, have 3 sets of speakers in our home now. Those feel like they were built purely for listening not by following graphs, technological features or device-measured properties.
Wonderful demonstration, and it is certainly enlightening about the new, except newer, Klipsch speakers in this case the centre channel speaker. It is also disappointing because we expect a little better from Klipsch; most people cannot afford to spend well over a thousand dollars (here in Canada) for a centre channel, or pair of hi fi audio speakers.🔉🎵🎶
I was getting ready to buy the whole Klipsch RPII line glad I seen this. Whats your take on the Polk R700 and the rest of that line? Would that be a better way to go? If not what do you recommend at those price points?
Interesting channel, myself I am still driving my OG RF7-II but the wife thinks our RF82-II would fit better in our living room (they are in storage on the attic). We have a perfect living room for bigger speakers but she just loves the size of the RF82-II's better but the RF7-II sounds just a bit better haha. Not that we play that loud nowadays but decent levels. Perhaps the RF82-II update is worth it to bring it closer to the RF7-II's.
Man, you got more grace and class than I do, putting up with Jay's Iyagi. What a load that whole scenario was. As far as I'm concerned, Jay is using Danny to raise himself up.
"fewer parts of higher quality" ... a fundamental indicator of fine design & execution. demands expertise in proper theory and excellent product development. ultimately, buyers are responsible for discernment.
Thanks Danny another great upgrade from the gift that keeps on giving… Klipsch !! More to the point, how did you do at the Games in Poland? Did you win or did you let the British guy win (sorry, I had to say that !!). Anyway, hope you did well like you did in the qualifier!!
What models does this impact? I've always thought my center channel had some issue with volume. Getting it loud enough to hear some details would blow out other sounds. Can't get a stage, it sounds more like 1 discreet center channel and two stereo speakers.
HOLY Cow!!! I learned 40 years ago in High School about inductor crosstalk. What the heck is going on at Klipsch? How can they do some things SO well, and then do this?
It has limited value. Mainly, you'd be hearing Danny's room / microphone, and your speakers / room or headphones. Yes, you might be able to hear some of the difference between the 2, but you're not going to hear the real sound of the speakers, and how they'd work in your room.
Anthony is correct. Plus, UA-cam compresses it. We are going to do some high level recordings on the new Klipsch RP-600M V2's before and after the new upgrade and they will be downloadable uncompressed files.
No, the No Rez controls cabinet resonances, tightens up the bass response and cleans up the lower vocals. It doesn't effect the frequency response or the design work.
Danny, unrelated question: In the old days seakers enclosures where made with particle board, then came MDF and now you even see HDF in some hi-end speakers. It´s all got to to do with lowering resonances I think. My question is, do you think older enclosures would benefit from several layers of polyurethane on the inside to make them harder and maybe just maybe a little stiffer by making them more dense?
Let's be honest that nearly all center channel designs are compromises when ladies horizontally. Set them vertically and their performance improves greatly.
I have 110hz speakers and my avr only has 100hz or 120hz selections is it ok to set avr to 100hz for my 110hz speakers or is it best to keep them at 120hz? Any help would be appreciated thank you....
I have a pair of Polk R200's I enjoy but I've had them for awhile now to where I've been buying other speakers. I'm at the point to where I'm ready to crack them open and upgrade the internals. Are you ready to look at some R200's and upgrade the crossovers??
This is raising an interesting question: not to disagree with the idea that speaker crossover shouldn't just be simulated on a computer, when you "re-design" crossovers, do you then take all these speakers into your listening room and listen to the difference between the original and upgraded versions?
Always interesting watching you upgrade videos. I have a question, when upgrading parts on a 12th order crossover, are all caps equally important to upgrade, or are some more crucial? (mainly thinking of mid bandpass and tweeter higpass filter).
Hey Danny, in theory would the best centre channel speaker be a coaxial design or even multiple tweeter design(similar to the Tekton's)? Just wondering if you would ever look at developing either of those two configurations into a speaker?
He has a video on multiple tweeters. That won’t work because of cancellation effects due to the short wavelengths involved in the tweeter range. A coax driver wont have no phase issues in the vocal, midrange and above.
Same as the best design for any standard forward firing speaker. The fewest amount of drivers possible for the required performance, with the smallest spacing between them.
See our LGK 2.2 model. It is the center channel that I use in my personal system too. gr-research.com/product/lgk-2-2-kit-single/ Also, check out the measurements.
I think that my brothers. who have a couple pairs of Not cheap tower speakers? I may have to forward this video to them and set them on the GR path to better sound.
Well you could be wrong on that they may like some of that awful stuff don't get me wrong I'm a Harley lover but they could take the vibration all out but they decide not to and let it shake itself to death still
I find measurement guys interesting. Maybe Klipsch engineers aren’t incompetent and want their speakers to sound the way they do. I love my Forte Fours just the way they are.
Hi. I have one question. I just bought myself a pair of older Klipsch RP-260f towers that were on sale because I really like how they sounded. Now I am wondering which center speaker would be best. I read you should stick with the same brand/product line for center and fronts. Do I have to stick with Klipsch or is there any other speaker brand/product line that could be used instead without sounding weird? If I stick with Klipsch, which center speaker would you recommend using for a standard 3-seats setup so I can keep the off-axis problem at a minimum? Is it better to go with something like the RP-600c or the 504c II or perhaps just a Klipsch Bookshelf/M speaker? I would really appreciate your advice. Thank you very much in advance!!! Great video by the way, like always 😃
No, not at all. You can make amplitude corrections with EQ, but all of the cheesy parts that rob you of detail and resolution are still in the path and eating up performance.
for a company with a storied history still making $$$ and well loved iconic speakers they have shit the bed again. the cheapest elacs with none of the history put Klipsch to shame. i swear they sell them based on size and looks.
Did you see all the cheese in that crossover...Time and time again Danny is showing us that even the most well known brands are constantly treating us like easy marks. Selling us (receiver level) mid Fi , claiming it to be something it is clearly not. After Danny's video's I wouldn't go anywhere near Klipsch, Revel (after that 25.00 crossover in that $4000.00 pair of bookshelves) These are unethical business practices. Price points are all that matters. Stop buying these brands till they prioritize quality in their products. They clearly don't fear Danny exposing them. So they continue to design and manufacturing sub standard products. The people on you tube praising Klipsch...are paid well to do it. I think we know who they are.
Could you maybe have a look at a pair of piega's. Im realy curious if you could explain something about their quality and if it actually is that great.
What causes a design error like the inductors** all facing the same direction? That can’t be related to budgeting the product. Are they hiring underqualified people? Is someone higher up just not doing their job and checking the engineering work? I don’t get it?
What's wrong with having caps "facing the same direction", what does it even mean ? Or were you on about mutual coupling between inductors, which Danny tried to conflate as an interaction between cables or sth ?
Never flocked towards the klipsch sound,I had a lascala driven by a Jadis orchestra. I sold the entire rig 3 weeks later ,was anything but impressed with it all. Each to their own, it does seem the tower speakers today seems bit better to me.
I must say that Klipsch has never been my cup of tea as I have never heard their midline down, that didn't sound colored or fatiguing. If looking for their modest lineups, I would suggest looking at used Cerwin Vega's for that "bright hot house sound" instead and perhaps save a little money. Great to see you speak to them.
Have you ever looked into the crossover performance of the Iconic JBL L100 classic speaker ?. Thinking about purchasing a pair of these but would be nice to know how good their crossover design is..
The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result! Any company building products repeating the same mistakes over over again, is doomed to fail! It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when!
Klipsch has been in business since 1946 and is still one of the best selling brands that exists. I don't think they have to worry about failing just because some people on UA-cam don't like the way they measure. Klipsch speakers have a distinctive presentation. Some people love it and some people hate it, but enough love it that they have a very healthy business.
Well, there is hope until someone starts tinkering around and lowers the efficiency so much that they need 10× the amplifier to get back to parity (not to mention the driver distortion that you can never reclaim) just so they can gain a db or so in flatness. Now, if someone were to do that then there would really be no hope. But no one would do that I am sure
bottom line is Klipsch buys the CHEAPEST driver and crossovers they can possibly get away with (maximize profit) and the result is so bad I personally wouldn't have them if they were GIVING THEM AWAY
Are we talking about center channels? Does anyone make great center channels? Most audio criticisms I ever see on the tubes is about bad center channels...
With you finding all these problems with so many speaker manufacturers. You should make a video of speakers you do recommend that are good right out of the box. Maybe you already have if so please link. I’m currently using klipsch rc-64 gen 1 if you make a kit for it I may be inclined to purchase or change all together to one you recommend. Thanks!
@@dannyrichie9743 I’ll have to get more info from you on that one sir, but hey have you guys ever looked at the older klipsch stuff like the Klf legend series or the epic series stuff? Wondering if that older stuff is actually better?
Man, I really want to try an upgrade kit for my Klipsch RF-82 II's or maybe just sell em and get the X-MTM Encore Kit. I'm essentially a novice and both options are intimidating for me.
Wow that's pretty bad. I would have almost considered your review as self serving and biased since you do sell the upgrade kits, however your measurements are spotnon with Erins as well if youve seen his review. I actually have a 440c with 150m with 240s surrounds with klipsch atmos overheads and was thinking of upgrading the front stage to the 504cii center etc. i think im gonna go and upgrade towards a new direction with a true 3 way center etc..
I have a RP-450C. It sounds like garbage. I'm guessing no, but would either the RP-600C or the RP-405C work for the RP-450C? And if not, any recommendations for a decent center?
We have some center channel models that you might want to consider. They are well above the Klipsch models in performance. Check out our X Series models and our LGK 2.2 model.
I, still love ❤️ KLIPSCH, I AM 68YRS OLD.BEEN LISTENING TO SPEAKERS ALL TYPES,SINCE 17 YRS OLD.
You are correct, I do also. We listen to music, not numbers… I think.
I did the GR research upgrades on the original RP. 600m and it was an enormous difference. Really amazing. Lots of fun to do. I know everybody talks about the frequency response, but the way that these speakers sound staged after the upgrade is unbelievable.
Just buy some real speakers in the first place and you won't need to get your speakers "fixed".
@@thegoat164 Besides who expects good sound when your speakers are only $13,000/pair?
@thegoat164 it's a massive $500 center channel almost every single center channels are horrible normally only good for the person dead center its the problem with centers a bookshelf or tower will always be a better center
@thegoat164 so what's a "real speaker" that you can use as center channel for under 500$?
Thank you for exposing the inner mind blowing mistakes by some big companies I understand keeping cost down but having all inductors flat and so close is a huge rookie mistake there is no excuse for that.
It does not cost anything to orient them properly.
You were able to do it with less parts and better. Keep up the good work 💛
Depends on who put the speaker together on my 504c ii everything on the crossover was correctly oriented I checked after seeing this video I always line my speakers with denser material no matter what company but honestly not a bad speaker for $475
Descriptive. Concise. Perfect.
It shames me, finally, that I enjoyed a 40 year relationship with my Klipsch Cornwalls. Having replaced them, with something (Arendal) that has far better resolution, I have seen the light. Those Cornwalls really rocked in a small room. With today's open-plan homes, off axis listening is dominated by cabinet noise. Very fatiguing. Very. It had occurred to me that cabinet noise is part of their appeal. In a small room.
Anywho, great video, and we really needed it! Thank you!
Danny you are the hero. It is incredible that K... puts out such junk. It took me 2 mins in a listening room to eliminate their product from a speaker column lineup. I told the salesman, this speaker puts out just noise and I played the same tunes thru all speakers via Tidal app they had.
I'm a big Klipsch fan, but I'm glad to know I can get more out of them.
That's the whole issue of buying a brand rather than the result...
I like my Klipsch speakers
Klipsch gives me hope. I know i am not the worst speaker builder around.
Be pretty damn hard to make a worse speaker.
The popularity of Klipsch demonstrates the ignorance of people in audio matters 🤣🤣🤣
@@shipsahoy1793 Beats headphones seal the deal. Nothing announces to the world that a person is willing to pay for it, but doesn't actually know what good audio is like a pair of Beats headphones on their head 😆
@@Carl-bd1rf There are many brands of speakers at the same price point that perform great.
@@ywsx6489 the Klipsch perform great at their price. What's your point? If the others were as popular, they would be getting the same amount of hate.
Maybe someone does your particular niche better at the price, but the Klipsch are probably the best theater speakers you'll find at their price and even up to $2000 a pair. Like if you want a room just to watch movies this Klipsch is a good speaker. If you want a room for critical listening I dunno maybe some powered mixing monitors or something.
0:06 yes I can believe it because Klipsch sounds amazing at an affordable price! I’ve never once met a person who listened to my klipsch speakers and said they sound bad… and let me tell you that they were A LOT cheaper than some B&W speakers or whatever… thank you for making this video! I love the work you guys are doing! ❤
Still sounds like junk regardless of price
@@MrViper7121 your comment makes me think you have the mental age of a 15 year old… if you’re not 15 years old then please have a look at yourself and grow the f up 👍🏼
Man, I hope you get a Cornwall IV at some point to play with. Great work as usual, and thank you for what you do.
I'd recommend a "C" stand for your mic situation. It's more expensive and more extreme, but gives you more options and flexibility. It will hold your mic as an unmanned extended boom pole overhead and out of shot, and some extra lighting as well if you need it. They are truly multi-purpose stands, everybody should have at least 1 of them. Cheers 🍻
Thanks.
Excellent video Danny! The more I learn about Klipsch, the more I'm glad I don't have any. I'll stay with your upgrades and offerings.🙂👍
That comment makes no sense, any speaker you buy has flaws. Have you watched any of his other videos? There are speakers he had to redo costing twice as much as klipsch they were far worse for Sonics.
@@StephenBuck-oo2oxwhen you're talking balance between bass and treble, I'd tend to agree. But, huge suckouts or peaks in response just sound nasty. 60 to 120hz raised by 3 to 6db, or 7 to 15khz raised / lowered a similar amount, gives a speaker a voice. A wide-band tilt to the response does the same. That's a speakers voicing. A 10db hole in the response, smack in the mid band, will just sound coloured, indistinct and bad.
Yes, there's more to a good speaker than a flat response. But, Danny listens to his changes as well. Not just a flat line 🤠
@Stephen Buck Anthony Howard is correct. There is a lot more to it than an accurate frequency response.
There really is...after many years of ownership, I sold my Klipschorns, LaScala's, Hersey II's, Forte's, KLFC7 and now survive on my Klipsch promedia 2.1 for my Klipsch fix...and my old age back and hockey knees couldn't be happier...there is an after life.....😎
There's one thing in having to keep to a parts budget, but good basic design doesn't cost extra. You made a better response using less parts. I think Klipsch must let their apprentices design their cheaper range speakers.....
I actually had to restrain myself from laughing out loud the first time I saw that center channel in a Best Buy 🤣
I love what you're doing with these upgrade kits. The inductor orientation is such low hanging fruit I find that hard to believe that's cost cutting and more laziness. I know they're all built to cost and it's a hard business when it's margin driven.
Best thing you ever said Danny "Im not going in and changing the desing im smoothening out and making it better"
Excellent vid. My Pedest'ale Tower speakers are sounding terrific. Thanks Danny
That crossover layout looks like a April fools joke. I hope it is😬
Another klipsch upgrade lol, Anyways just got my NX-Treme in and they are beautiful and coming along great.
Are you planning to make any NX-Treme build videos? And more importantly, review videos?
Sure I’ll be posting them soon
$319 is totally worth it.
GR-RESEARCH has amazing diy kits too. I have a pair of X-Statiks and I love them; they are phenomenal.
And bis crossover parts are too expensive. Sonicaps. Nobody in Europa knows something about. I use audyn Q4 or Q6 for HF.
@@thomasschafer7268 The Sonicaps are not cheap caps, but many levels above and past the Audyn's.
"we're kind of missing the ABCs of speaker design here". 5:40
I wasn't a fan of that line, but I love the fortes, and the new nines, well they hit it out of the park, those are very very good.
Danny would find something wrong with them and then offer a solution… which you buy from him. I think he’s a Charlatan
Was amazed by the price point. Great work young man 👌
I paid $339 for my B&W upgrade last year (it's higher now, due to inflation and supply chain shortages). The other day, I went online "shopping" for the same components in the GR-Research kit - it came out to $417 retail (before sales tax), without the solder, wiring and connectors. Basically, you are getting crossovers not even found in $10K+ speakers for dirt cheap. If you are willing to put in the time for the upgrade, this is one of the best bargains in audio!
His Upgrades are too expensive. For me as german i look for european parts. Audyn Q4 or Q6. Caps. Inductors the same.$$$$😮😮
@@thomasschafer7268 Good for you - maybe these components are a lot cheaper in Germany? I know that groceries are! Here in the US, I simply cannot buy the components of the upgrade kit for less than getting the whole thing from GR-Research.
I appreciate and respect Danny's videos. But, just quickly want to point something out that might help a few people. Starting at 9:53, this is exactly "why" anyone should turn this speaker VERTICAL, if you can simply make room for it. That flips the vertical and horizontal off-axis responses. It's also why many folks recommend using a matching tower as center (LCR), if you have the room. Vertical configuration makes a big difference. Any Klipsch or other MTM Center channel designs will sound much better, especially in terms of off axis response. I've actually commented about that before on this channel.
I have 2 Klipsch RP-450C (previous model, identical to 504C) that I occasionally will rotate among other Klipsch systems in the house, and I use them as front main speakers standing vertically on top of subwoofers. Sound is phenomenal in that configuration, especially w/ the 450C's slightly toed in to the shoulders. Even standing vertical on the floor is not bad if you sit low enough, but they're better at ear level. Just tone down the treble a bit, which is standard procedure with all Klipsch. And even with the subs off, these will sound like "small Towers." Ignore the 58 HZ bass spec on the 504C - most room gain and proper placement & wattage will yield lower bass results. The 2.5 way Crossover at 500 & 1,500 can bring out a little better mid-range (vocals/dialogue) than even the 8-inch Klipsch towers that I also have. Bass is stronger on my 8" towers of course, but these centers are no slouch, or especially if using two vertically as mains channels. Hope that might also help someone get more out of these.
When will someone from Klipsch chime in to respond to Dan’s assessments?!
What is there to say?
@@dannyrichie9743 It would be interesting to hear their engineers/bean counters justify their decision to make a “not quite there” speaker on such a large scale. It seems that even with cheesy parts, they could have done better.
@@boomcrash You are correct.
@Stephen Buck The only way responses get deleted around here is if profanity is used, if someone is being disrespectful, or if the post contains false or misleading information.
@Stephen Buck I have not deleted them unless they fall into the categories listed above.
Likely just 90% marketing 10% R&D. Quickly getting a speaker design with little effort simply to enter a competitive market at a competitive price range but not investing the time to get a high level design into the market place
What's funny is the horn has good dispersion behavior, which must take a lot of development but then they put no effort at all into the crossover. Something has clearly gone very, very wrong.
Agreed. Using an intricate horn design but skimping everywhere else is just nonsense. So it’s basically promoting a horn design to fool consumers that every thing you can’t see is just as intricately crafted in the product and the truth is it’s rather poorly designed.
@Stephen Buck The audible improvement this upgrade offers is a major transformation.
@@dannyrichie9743Klipsch should hire GR research to refine their crossovers then..
Who would keep buying a speaker you will only need to fix?
Uninformed best buy customers
As long as Reviewers keep praising these Klipschs people are going to buy them.
Normal people
Hey, it has shiny woofers. Oooh, shiny!
@Stephen Buck normal people
Thank you so much! Used to build voice of the theater PA speakers from scratch at 1/4 the cost of new and worked twice as good
Spot on again RE: Price Point build. IMO corporate marketing must make up for other deficiencies.
Oh man, I picked up this speaker about 6 months ago and I was hoping it wouldn't show up in one of your videos, lol. I've noticed in my own living room that the horizontal off-axis is horrible and there was definitely a break in period that my speaker went through. Excellent video and thank you for highlighting this.
It would be an interesting exercise to see if a similar improvement could be made in response and spectral decay using a low cost crossover appropriate for the cost of the speaker. Mainly to show that a balanced solution can be engineered in the context of the speaker’s price point. It does look like the house sound is a hit tweeter. Maybe a switchable tweeter level would be a good upgrade too so people can choose how much of the house sound they want.
I could offer a lower cost upgrade for them using the same design. They could have done the same.
@@dannyrichie9743 it would be good to see if it would fit on a similar sized board to the factory one. Then they really have no excuses 🤣
Great work. And shows just how terrible horizontal centre speakers are.
Great video Danny, I’ll have to design a speaker using bells as cones just for you. I feel inspired.😁😁😁😁😁 Yea, I heard the response issues of the previous series too.
Would love to see you work on some original Heresy's. I can even send mine in for testing :)
Send one in and I'll take a look at it.
What do you think of older Boston Acoustics speakers from the '90s to the early 2000s prior to them being sold to that Japanese company?
I think Klipsch did a great marketing thing when they went to the copper colored woofers. They really make their speakers look good, and for that reason I think Klipsch have become very popular. But looks does not always equal sound quality (though Klipsch is at least decent). The Klipsch LaScala are the speakers I dream about. They look like a piece of furniture, simply awesome in my opinion, and sound great too.
We had a La Scala in many months ago. It was one of the worst measuring speakers that I have ever measured. It also had some of the worst cabinet wall resonances of any speaker that has ever been in here.
@@dannyrichie9743 some people say their big horn speakers are designed with the resonances as part of the target sound...lmao as hard as it is to believe this I would not be surprised. they don't use bracing even on many of their large, expensive speakers.
Klipschhhhhhhhhhh. Grabs your attention when auditioned in the shop I would guess, then the obvious colouration and the crudity of their design drives you insane at home.
this explains why the 404 has slightly better off axis response than the 504. The driver spacing isnt as wide. 404 is good around +/-15 degree. 504 is +/-10 degrees. Pretty narrow.
Oh, I get it. Klipsch is based in HOPE Arkansas. I see what you did there. Clever. Somebody needs to send you a pair of Cornwall IVs or LaScala AL5s or Klipschorn AK6es. That’s what “Klipsch Guys” buy. The rest is just mass-produced consumer gear.
We've had some of those over as well. The LaScala takes the cake so far for the most jacked up response, most cabinet wall resonances, and biggest time delay issues.
I am likely get a lot of heat for saying this but I will say it - Klipsch used to be a very respectable company in the past, at one point they acquired Jamo, once the leading Danish loudspeaker company and one of the most well known in the world of high end speakers, then slowly over the last decade or so ran it to the ground.
And now they seem to be doing this to themselves too - making cheap and nasty products and becoming what it seems to be primarily a coin operated company. Admittedly there are still some models worthy of our attention in their product line but those seem to be few and far between.
I used to own 2 sets of Klipsch speakers of recent manufacture, both sold now and I moved on from the brand. I do still own a set of Jamo D830 bookshelf speakers from pre-Klipsch era, which I have been unable to match or replace with an alternative.
That’s me and my personal experience and I’m sorry if I offended anyone, I just had to get it off my chest.
That is a valid observation.
@Stephen Buck "B&W - Bowers and Wilkins".
@Stephen Buck True. And will this raise the bar for Klipsch or lower it for Emotiva? It doesn't matter since there are thousands of speaker brands to choose from.
Same here, about 6 years I moved to Wharfedale, have 3 sets of speakers in our home now. Those feel like they were built purely for listening not by following graphs, technological features or device-measured properties.
Wonderful demonstration, and it is certainly enlightening about the new, except newer, Klipsch speakers in this case the centre channel speaker. It is also disappointing because we expect a little better from Klipsch; most people cannot afford to spend well over a thousand dollars (here in Canada) for a centre channel, or pair of hi fi audio speakers.🔉🎵🎶
Might as well throw in Polk guy too....they're even WORSE than Klipsch guy 😁🙂😆
I was getting ready to buy the whole Klipsch RPII line glad I seen this. Whats your take on the Polk R700 and the rest of that line? Would that be a better way to go? If not what do you recommend at those price points?
Interesting channel, myself I am still driving my OG RF7-II but the wife thinks our RF82-II would fit better in our living room (they are in storage on the attic). We have a perfect living room for bigger speakers but she just loves the size of the RF82-II's better but the RF7-II sounds just a bit better haha. Not that we play that loud nowadays but decent levels. Perhaps the RF82-II update is worth it to bring it closer to the RF7-II's.
Man, you got more grace and class than I do, putting up with Jay's Iyagi. What a load that whole scenario was. As far as I'm concerned, Jay is using Danny to raise himself up.
Jay has and is been bigger on yt than Danny is so that makes no sense at all.
"fewer parts of higher quality" ... a fundamental indicator of fine design & execution. demands expertise in proper theory and excellent product development. ultimately, buyers are responsible for discernment.
Thanks Danny another great upgrade from the gift that keeps on giving… Klipsch !!
More to the point, how did you do at the Games in Poland? Did you win or did you let the British guy win (sorry, I had to say that !!). Anyway, hope you did well like you did in the qualifier!!
See the links that I posted here: www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185497.0
It really depends on what you can afford. If you really want something and don’t have enough money then you got to do what you got to do.
What models does this impact? I've always thought my center channel had some issue with volume. Getting it loud enough to hear some details would blow out other sounds. Can't get a stage, it sounds more like 1 discreet center channel and two stereo speakers.
Nice work Danny
HOLY Cow!!! I learned 40 years ago in High School about inductor crosstalk. What the heck is going on at Klipsch? How can they do some things SO well, and then do this?
Do you sell speaker builds or have a purchase list of speakers builds you recommend ?
They have quite a few on there web-site, it's worth checking out.
Sure. visit gr-research.com to check them out.
hi Danny, is it possible to play the speakers before / after so we can hear the difference as the graphs can be difficult to follow...?
It has limited value. Mainly, you'd be hearing Danny's room / microphone, and your speakers / room or headphones. Yes, you might be able to hear some of the difference between the 2, but you're not going to hear the real sound of the speakers, and how they'd work in your room.
Anthony is correct. Plus, UA-cam compresses it.
We are going to do some high level recordings on the new Klipsch RP-600M V2's before and after the new upgrade and they will be downloadable uncompressed files.
@@dannyrichie9743 true but I've heard many speaker comparisons on youtube and you can tell the difference between sound signatures..
@@DrBroncanuus I can record a speaker in a different room and change its signature. THat's the problem with in room recordings.
Danny Richie, when you show graphs of your upgrade, is the Norez material already installed in the cabinet also.
No, the No Rez controls cabinet resonances, tightens up the bass response and cleans up the lower vocals. It doesn't effect the frequency response or the design work.
Danny, unrelated question: In the old days seakers enclosures where made with particle board, then came MDF and now you even see HDF in some hi-end speakers. It´s all got to to do with lowering resonances I think. My question is, do you think older enclosures would benefit from several layers of polyurethane on the inside to make them harder and maybe just maybe a little stiffer by making them more dense?
The easiest way to tackle that issue is to line them with No Rez.
Let's be honest that nearly all center channel designs are compromises when ladies horizontally. Set them vertically and their performance improves greatly.
I have 110hz speakers and my avr only has 100hz or 120hz selections is it ok to set avr to 100hz for my 110hz speakers or is it best to keep them at 120hz? Any help would be appreciated thank you....
I have a pair of Polk R200's I enjoy but I've had them for awhile now to where I've been buying other speakers. I'm at the point to where I'm ready to crack them open and upgrade the internals. Are you ready to look at some R200's and upgrade the crossovers??
Hi, just curious to see if klipsch had ever commented on any of your upgrades? If so, how so?
Yes, and they do watch our videos.
This guy should thank Klipsch for keeping him in business lol😅
So can anyone recommend a center channel speaker that I don't have to buy a kit to make it work the way it was supposed to work in the first place?
Have you seen our products? We even offer options at every level.
This is raising an interesting question: not to disagree with the idea that speaker crossover shouldn't just be simulated on a computer, when you "re-design" crossovers, do you then take all these speakers into your listening room and listen to the difference between the original and upgraded versions?
We never simulate crossovers on a computer. They are designed based on actual measurements.
@@dannyrichie9743 Cool! What about the answer to my question?
@@LeonFleisherFan We go way beyond just listening to a speaker. We listen to and compare each part we use and make lots of A/B comparisons.
Always interesting watching you upgrade videos. I have a question, when upgrading parts on a 12th order crossover, are all caps equally important to upgrade, or are some more crucial? (mainly thinking of mid bandpass and tweeter higpass filter).
12th order?
@@KingOath Oh, Sorry. ment 2nd order ofcourse, mixed up with 12dB/octave.
12th order? That's something I have never seen. As to your question though, all parts in the circuit matter.
Hey Danny, in theory would the best centre channel speaker be a coaxial design or even multiple tweeter design(similar to the Tekton's)? Just wondering if you would ever look at developing either of those two configurations into a speaker?
He has a video on multiple tweeters. That won’t work because of cancellation effects due to the short wavelengths involved in the tweeter range. A coax driver wont have no phase issues in the vocal, midrange and above.
Tekton doesn't use multiple tweeters. They use multiple tweeter drivers, but utilized as midranges, with a single tweeter in the middle.
Coaxial
Same as the best design for any standard forward firing speaker. The fewest amount of drivers possible for the required performance, with the smallest spacing between them.
See our LGK 2.2 model. It is the center channel that I use in my personal system too. gr-research.com/product/lgk-2-2-kit-single/ Also, check out the measurements.
I think that my brothers. who have a couple pairs of Not cheap tower speakers? I may have to forward this video to them and set them on the GR path to better sound.
Well you could be wrong on that they may like some of that awful stuff don't get me wrong I'm a Harley lover but they could take the vibration all out but they decide not to and let it shake itself to death still
I find measurement guys interesting. Maybe Klipsch engineers aren’t incompetent and want their speakers to sound the way they do. I love my Forte Fours just the way they are.
I doubt that your Forte Fours have much in common with these other than a logo. A lot the Klipsch line are just profit boxes.
The Fortes leave a lot of room for improvements well. The parts quality using internally are bottom of the barrel level.
Yes, and all the professional reviewers including Stereophile who loved them are all wrong and you’re right. A conspiracy, I know.
What Klipsch engineers?
@@Wallyboy13 Unfortunately many of those "reviewers" are really just creative writers.
What bookshelf speakers do Professional musicians prefer ?
Y'alls misunderstand, the ringin' adds twice the amount of cowbell! More cowbell!
It would be a great show if you would get a Klipsch engineer to come on and defend their engineering. Measurements can be misleading...
Klipsch likely 'measures' their performance by the bottom line (profitability).
Hi. I have one question. I just bought myself a pair of older Klipsch RP-260f towers that were on sale because I really like how they sounded. Now I am wondering which center speaker would be best. I read you should stick with the same brand/product line for center and fronts. Do I have to stick with Klipsch or is there any other speaker brand/product line that could be used instead without sounding weird?
If I stick with Klipsch, which center speaker would you recommend using for a standard 3-seats setup so I can keep the off-axis problem at a minimum? Is it better to go with something like the RP-600c or the 504c II or perhaps just a Klipsch Bookshelf/M speaker?
I would really appreciate your advice. Thank you very much in advance!!!
Great video by the way, like always 😃
There is not really anything from their product line I could recommend without upgrading them.
Wondering about sending in my old. KG 4.2 Klipsch.
Nuce work but doesnt the leveling of most receivers do this for free?
No, not at all. You can make amplitude corrections with EQ, but all of the cheesy parts that rob you of detail and resolution are still in the path and eating up performance.
for a company with a storied history still making $$$ and well loved iconic speakers they have shit the bed again. the cheapest elacs with none of the history put Klipsch to shame. i swear they sell them based on size and looks.
I have the KL650 (now kl6000 thx) I would love to see an upgrade on those
Did you see all the cheese in that crossover...Time and time again Danny is showing us that even the most well known brands are constantly treating us like easy marks. Selling us (receiver level) mid Fi , claiming it to be something it is clearly not. After Danny's video's I wouldn't go anywhere near Klipsch, Revel (after that 25.00 crossover in that $4000.00 pair of bookshelves) These are unethical business practices. Price points are all that matters. Stop buying these brands till they prioritize quality in their products. They clearly don't fear Danny exposing them.
So they continue to design and manufacturing sub standard products. The people on you tube praising Klipsch...are paid well to do it. I think we know who they are.
Snake Oil Speakers 😂
Absolute dog poo speakers
Could you maybe have a look at a pair of piega's. Im realy curious if you could explain something about their quality and if it actually is that great.
I only take a look at whatever is sent in.
What causes a design error like the inductors** all facing the same direction? That can’t be related to budgeting the product. Are they hiring underqualified people? Is someone higher up just not doing their job and checking the engineering work? I don’t get it?
What's wrong with having caps "facing the same direction", what does it even mean ? Or were you on about mutual coupling between inductors, which Danny tried to conflate as an interaction between cables or sth ?
@@paulb4661 whatever the hell Danny said in the part of the video he dedicated to part facing the same way and causing magnetism issues
The rant about unqualified people makes a lot of sense now.
@@paulb4661 what rant? You mean the question I asked?
@@Sloimer
Those aren't capacitors. They are inductors.
Never flocked towards the klipsch sound,I had a lascala driven by a Jadis orchestra.
I sold the entire rig 3 weeks later ,was anything but impressed with it all. Each to their own, it does seem the tower speakers today seems bit better to me.
I must say that Klipsch has never been my cup of tea as I have never heard their midline down, that didn't sound colored or fatiguing. If looking for their modest lineups, I would suggest looking at used Cerwin Vega's for that "bright hot house sound" instead and perhaps save a little money. Great to see you speak to them.
Have you ever looked into the crossover performance of the Iconic JBL L100 classic speaker ?. Thinking about purchasing a pair of these but would be nice to know how good their crossover design is..
I have not worked on that model.
We're the 8000Fii's featured in this series of upgrades?
Would love to hear something on F3's with dual 8". Ill check your channel.
I wonder if Klipsch ever see's any of these video's to correct their mistakes and make a better product?
Nope. They have they niche. Some people just want that. Matter of the taste.
Auf Deutsch. Das geht denen am arsch vorbei. Verkauft sich doch wie geschnitten Brot. 😂🤔🤔🤔
They actually did.
Yeah, they actually have been watching and they have gone back to the drawing board and redesigned the crossovers in their whole product line.
@@dannyrichie9743 Yes they did and ended up selling more speakers. Method to their madness.
The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result!
Any company building products repeating the same mistakes over over again, is doomed to fail!
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when!
Klipsch has been in business since 1946 and is still one of the best selling brands that exists. I don't think they have to worry about failing just because some people on UA-cam don't like the way they measure. Klipsch speakers have a distinctive presentation. Some people love it and some people hate it, but enough love it that they have a very healthy business.
@@stevenbauer1730 They also leave a LOT of areas for improvement that make them prime candidates for DIY upgrades.
I wonder what those technicians think when they measure at the factory.... Mehhh that's "about right?!
"This will grab people's attention for the cost we are building it to".
Well, there is hope until someone starts tinkering around and lowers the efficiency so much that they need 10× the amplifier to get back to parity (not to mention the driver distortion that you can never reclaim) just so they can gain a db or so in flatness. Now, if someone were to do that then there would really be no hope. But no one would do that I am sure
bottom line is Klipsch buys the CHEAPEST driver and crossovers they can possibly get away with (maximize profit) and the result is so bad I personally wouldn't have them if they were GIVING THEM AWAY
Are we talking about center channels? Does anyone make great center channels? Most audio criticisms I ever see on the tubes is about bad center channels...
Danny, what if you used only one of the middle woofers with the tweeter and the rest 3 woofers as LF only in a 2.5-way design?
Then it would have an uneven lobbing pattern.
@@dannyrichie9743 I agree, it would be uneven but it could be much better than otherwise.
With you finding all these problems with so many speaker manufacturers. You should make a video of speakers you do recommend that are good right out of the box. Maybe you already have if so please link. I’m currently using klipsch rc-64 gen 1 if you make a kit for it I may be inclined to purchase or change all together to one you recommend. Thanks!
Send one in so we can all see them upgraded, I'm sure it will be interesting.
@@seanjoell hey if he’s down I’m down to send it in
Send one in and we'll take a look at it.
@@dannyrichie9743 I’ll have to get more info from you on that one sir, but hey have you guys ever looked at the older klipsch stuff like the Klf legend series or the epic series stuff? Wondering if that older stuff is actually better?
@@Fdmartinez419 In some ways it might be.
Man, I really want to try an upgrade kit for my Klipsch RF-82 II's or maybe just sell em and get the X-MTM Encore Kit. I'm essentially a novice and both options are intimidating for me.
They are easier than you think and you will have our full support. If you get stuck, just call me and I'll walk you through it.
Wow that's pretty bad. I would have almost considered your review as self serving and biased since you do sell the upgrade kits, however your measurements are spotnon with Erins as well if youve seen his review. I actually have a 440c with 150m with 240s surrounds with klipsch atmos overheads and was thinking of upgrading the front stage to the 504cii center etc. i think im gonna go and upgrade towards a new direction with a true 3 way center etc..
Them there Brutes loom large.
I have a RP-450C. It sounds like garbage. I'm guessing no, but would either the RP-600C or the RP-405C work for the RP-450C? And if not, any recommendations for a decent center?
We have some center channel models that you might want to consider. They are well above the Klipsch models in performance. Check out our X Series models and our LGK 2.2 model.
@@dannyrichie9743 Ah, perfect!! I'll check them out!! EDIT: Ordered!
Can you do a video on Bose 901 reflecting speakers swing they don’t make them anymore
that would be a hoot.....my guess...the worst speaker ever
tell us what did you do in Poland? did you win? did you ever work on ns777? should I upgrade them?
See the links in this post: www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=185497.0
I just work on whatever is sent in.
Its crazy how home / hifi are still using banana posts, my new speakers I am working on use Neutrik Speakon, at least the speaker end haha
We use those on our servo subs. I'd never use them on anything above 200Hz though.