While I agree on most of your points, at the moment weapons are the least of concern for balancing biggest issue is druid, he has free escapes and high damage, druid needs to have cooldowns for transformation and thorncoat, nerf damage and scaling of panther and bear by 30% or more, decrease heal spells count, increase rat size and make them unable to jump through doors. as for sorcerer nerf damage to lightning bolt, sphere, and fire orb and remove speed debuff from the spells. also true damage needs to be gone
For sure, though the main issue is that the classes won't ever be balanced (unless they take a break on them and spend a month on each class trying to rework/balance them out). However those imbalances can be "ok" if the base combat and weapon design is on point. Games like Elden Ring have a lot of issues with the crazy stuff players use for pvp but the base fundamentals and general design is strong so the bad parts of the game can be looked over as long as its fun if it came across as me wanting to ignore one issue over the other, then that's my fault for not communicating this well in my video.
rapier is ridiciliously OP, its the only long reach type weapon with no sourspot which in many cases can lead to it doing comperable damage to an arming sword, while also having a 4 hit attack pattern with each attack being very good
I want to start off first by saying great video dude! Although you made some great points I do have some disagreements: 1. This might be the hotter take but, I don’t think rapier is the issue I think bard is. Every time you mention “when other classes use this” I don’t think you’re pointing the finger at rogue, fighter, or ranger. With the way bard wants to play and how bard wants to build brings the weapon into that next level of crazy, and as you stated in your video “It’s fine if the perk exceeds the weapon to be meta”. I think this statement directly applies to the case with bard and rapier mastery. The only other time I see that rapier’s are used well on the other classes is when pdr fighter uses demon’s glee and cyclops vision crystal and even then I don’t think this is “op”. 2. The other point you make with rondel daggers I mostly agree with, but the issue with nerfing rondel and other daggers in general in my opinion would be that it would leave rogue in an awful spot. The fact that bard and fighter both use the rondel better is the issue at hand for me. Especially the fact that it can be paired with buckler so that it further promotes the I’m going to be in your face and hold left click playstyle (you did cover this in the video). Rogue can’t really do that to some of the classes in the game. Off the top of my head solution’s that I can possibly think of for these two problems are maybe nerf rapier mastery so that it’s either doesn’t have the bonus weapon damage or the action speed. I think adding the sour spot would be a little weird for the rapier but I’m not completely against it. When talking about the second problem I think it’s a lot more complicated and although I do kind od like your idea of punishing daggers more when they hit a shield, I also think a good nerf to the rondel would be to give it a 3-4 hit set so that it falls more in line with the rogue playstyle of in and out and more so nerfs bards and fighters holding W key at you.
i think nerfing daggers in a different way that isn't just reduce their base dmg but rather address the gear, perk dmg stacking, and buffs is a healthier method. because then we can look at how they actually perform and make changes as needed (buff or nerf or rework). Rapier is a class + gear issue because of its innate benefits. Short sword a weapon with way more weaknesses has a sour spot and shorter reach, most swords have a sour spot so its very odd that a weapon that is meant to be a kiting tool can also just W key face hug because there isn't a sour spot to punish it I always agreed with what you stated that rondel should have a hit set and not just keep swinging Think there is many ways to always adjust weapons to make the more usable across the board without needed some weird dmg stacking cheese to make them usable or just dominate the game. Heavy respect the counter arguments and perspectives because I should have mentioned them as they are solid questions to ask.
I disagree with you on certain points here, but have some valid points as well: Disagreements: 1) if you nerf dagger and rapier then rogue virtually doesn't have a viable weapon 2) daggers have a HUGE weakness despite you not believing they do [i.e., low range]. A ranger with backstep + spear is going to annihilate you, a longsword user should get at least one free hit in before you even enter range [and then it hits significantly harder so you better land 2 attacks quick enough to compensate for that but by then the longsword user is already hitting u with their 2nd swing]. Agreements: 1) Rapier is a weapon that really doesnt have a "weakness" It's pretty busted. 2) True dmg is kind of problematic, but the implications of removing it would require toning down things like fighter PDR [otherwise they'd be OP when a phys damage user fights them] In Between: 1) All weapons should be viable and be able to stand on their viability in it of themselves; HOWEVER, there is always going to be "better" weapons and therefore a meta, so that may be just more of a utopian/wishful-thinking sort of thinking.
I really like the first point you brought out. if this was a longer video I should have mentioned stuff like that. However nerfing them in terms of adding more risk to being block stunned or rapier having a sour spot will only be a nerf for the players who developed bad habits. Now their dmg it can be a back and forth adjustments to find a solid middle ground, maybe their base dmg can be higher but less ways of stacking flat/true. 2nd part is true only true if you consider movement abilities like back step or sprint. but in most cases a dagger can easily close the distance and if you are running the typical PDR bard/fighter dagger, the range isn't much of an issue. So I agree could have stated that the reach can be a weakness but isn't enough to consider the weapon type balanced. Also daggers eat longswords in many of the situations. You can get on top of the longsword user before he is able to finish his combo or land 3 solid headshots. Sometimes in the high end, you don't even bother spacing, you just W key them and win the trade. PDR has a ton of counters but it is true that it will become too strong again if true phy is removed, but I think that be healthier to nerf tru phy and if PDR needs another nerf on the high end then that's fine as well. dealing with problematic metas by adding more isn't a good design. In relation to "All weapons should be viable and able to stand on their own viability" yes there will always be a meta, but if the core concepts and design of the weapons are strong and well made, even with metas it will be easier to overcome because the weapons can do more than just the current gimmick. Plenty of weapons in video games are not meta but used often because they are just a solid choice and perform well if you but a bit of practice into it. Obviously its never going to be perfect but the mindset with that statement is to strive for better design choices and creative solutions to problems. I respect the arguments and they bring up good points and have valid counter arguments to what I said in the video.
@@GavinDaGrey Daggers are really dumb and hard to balance. Either you have something thats completely useless or have something that's almost a guaranteed win. I have no problem with it being a super easy win... on a rogue. The stupid pard is when other melee class's get the dagger too cause now you have a class thats built around HP and Armor and now it gets this crazy dps weapon too.
Idk i have to agree a bit here because i see alot of classes having a rondal dagger build people are favoring even fighter who can use any wep chooses rondal so theres gotta be somthing to it.
This feels more like bias against finesse weapons. This wipe feels more balanced than ever cept for casters and druid. I don't think daggers or rapier are the best at all not even close.
@@itsAlanick atm a lot of the classes are using things like daggers, rapiers and even other weird fast weapons like hatchet 2-3 tapping squishes. I used daggers and rapier before and they generally perform very well. There different ways of approaching a nerf, sometimes it's not a nerf dmg directly but changing how it's applied or how it scales can often be a better solution because most of these issues are more obvious in between 124 and 224+ gear scores. If rapiers and daggers weren't the best then bards would stick to falchions or arming swords. Rogues would only use shortswords and rondel fighter would have not been popular. Even warlock lost the ability to use kriss dagger because of this issue. More examples can be brought up but the general point is that is generally true that the weapons who naturally swing fast, benefit from dmg perk stacking, added flat/true dmg from gear or song/spell buff will benefit them more than if they where applied to a slower swinging weapon with less natural advantages other than higher base dmg.
I find it crazy that they give caster classes melee weapons when what they should be doing is giving them more spells. Warlock and sorcerer are great examples. Warlock has hardly any spells and they compensate it by giving them falchion or longsword. The sorcerer is just a terrible class without melee weapons which makes no sense.
@@notmychannelname42 think it's fine for casters to have a melee weapon, but man I agree that warlock needs new spells to be more interesting, it's a seperate issue but some of the older classes are starting to feel outdated in design.
I watched 1:30 and I already see that this is a uneducated take aka skill issue. The fastest weapons in the game is way harder to both reach and headshot with than the slower weapons. War maul is literally the best melee weapon in the game if you get close before using it. Flanged mace is very fast but its small hitbox and up to down swipe is really hard to hit so if you want to be consistent with it you need skill. And don't get me started on perfecting the reach of the kris dagger slashes, hitting headshots with rondel, or hitting the last stab from the castillon. Weapons like War maul, bardiche, and falchion hit super hard which means if you are skilled enough to headshot with them you will win. There are for sure balance changes to be made to the weapons of dark and darker, but the statement that big slow weps are bad and that fast and small weps are good is just the biggest piece of fake news and I surely hope the devs don't see this video and take it seriously.
"The fastest weapons in the game is way harder to both reach and headshot with than the slower weapons. War maul is literally the best melee weapon in the game if you get close before using it." ok this would have been interesting but you didn't elaborate and just went with petty insults. ironic to say skill issue while thinking its hard to use rondel or castillon.
dude a barb 1 hit me with a bardiche yesterday.... so what ? and im also sure the weapons overall are not fairly balanced ... but u might overstep a bit sir . the game is just realy hard , and did u pvp once with an rouge with an dagger? u might easy kill an ranger or mager but an barb or fighter gonna be hard.
@@sebastianleister355 I have played rogue with Castillon and rondel. It's not as hard as people think, bardiche only 1 taps if you don't build hp or wear ok armor. Plus it's easy to space the first swing
anyone who's played a barbarian knows that we deserve the one shot lol, literally every other class can kite or out range a barbarian. the one/two shotting is LITERALLY the quirk of the class
Play rogue for a day using only rapier or daggers. Then tell me how it's overpowered and not skill diff when you kill a decent barb/fighter/cleric/bard/druid/sorcerer with it in a 1v1 or even in teamfights so you notice the extra complexity that comes with you being squishy combined with melee w short range. Not meant as disrespect but on a rogue; it is at exactly the right spot if you ask me, I'd like to see how I'm false if I am. I'm sure there's issues in weapon balance, but I doubt the daggers and rapiers themselves are the issue.
@@Peets001 saying play x class with standard weapon choices isn't really a gacha. If you as a rogue can't take out a fighter or cleric, then use a build that counters then, they are quite effective. Also the "squishy" part as of this wipe is very dishonest because rogue has way more hp pool or as much as most casters with higher ms. Either way the video isn't about rogue so not sure where this conclusion comes from
the video isn't about class balance, and I have played all of the melee classes. Its about how there is a lot of flaws with how weapons are designed and how generally fast weapons scale way better with gear vs a large amount 2h weapons fail to perform at their level unless its a barbarian using perks to stack a ton of free dmg
The only weapon i see that has a actual problem is ls and its riposte, getting parries with it isnt that hard but when u do land one you pretty much win the fight instantly
@@notakai_exe and since i have your attention, classes that use maces destroy classes that mainly use light weapons (bard/rogue) bard gets completely cooked by clerics if they know what they're doing, so I cant fully agree with the way you see light weapons rn
Following the D&D style: Game should be balanced around type of armor vs type of incoming dmg (Blunt, slash, pierce, etc). That should be the number one modifier that REALLY makes dmg be great or not. Like you are Knifing a FullPlate Character? dmg should be almost null but will really pop off against unequiped or leather characters. Everything else you said, sounds like skill expression :P
@@largebone4229 played all the melee classes actually, bard was the easiest one to abuse. Rogue was alright, but people undermine it's strengths too much. This video isn't about x class op it's about general balance issues between weapons and how their flaws impact the game.
While I agree on most of your points, at the moment weapons are the least of concern for balancing
biggest issue is druid, he has free escapes and high damage, druid needs to have cooldowns for transformation and thorncoat, nerf damage and scaling of panther and bear by 30% or more, decrease heal spells count, increase rat size and make them unable to jump through doors.
as for sorcerer nerf damage to lightning bolt, sphere, and fire orb and remove speed debuff from the spells.
also true damage needs to be gone
For sure, though the main issue is that the classes won't ever be balanced (unless they take a break on them and spend a month on each class trying to rework/balance them out). However those imbalances can be "ok" if the base combat and weapon design is on point.
Games like Elden Ring have a lot of issues with the crazy stuff players use for pvp but the base fundamentals and general design is strong so the bad parts of the game can be looked over as long as its fun
if it came across as me wanting to ignore one issue over the other, then that's my fault for not communicating this well in my video.
rapier is ridiciliously OP, its the only long reach type weapon with no sourspot which in many cases can lead to it doing comperable damage to an arming sword, while also having a 4 hit attack pattern with each attack being very good
I want to start off first by saying great video dude! Although you made some great points I do have some disagreements:
1. This might be the hotter take but, I don’t think rapier is the issue I think bard is. Every time you mention “when other classes use this” I don’t think you’re pointing the finger at rogue, fighter, or ranger. With the way bard wants to play and how bard wants to build brings the weapon into that next level of crazy, and as you stated in your video “It’s fine if the perk exceeds the weapon to be meta”. I think this statement directly applies to the case with bard and rapier mastery. The only other time I see that rapier’s are used well on the other classes is when pdr fighter uses demon’s glee and cyclops vision crystal and even then I don’t think this is “op”.
2. The other point you make with rondel daggers I mostly agree with, but the issue with nerfing rondel and other daggers in general in my opinion would be that it would leave rogue in an awful spot. The fact that bard and fighter both use the rondel better is the issue at hand for me. Especially the fact that it can be paired with buckler so that it further promotes the I’m going to be in your face and hold left click playstyle (you did cover this in the video). Rogue can’t really do that to some of the classes in the game.
Off the top of my head solution’s that I can possibly think of for these two problems are maybe nerf rapier mastery so that it’s either doesn’t have the bonus weapon damage or the action speed. I think adding the sour spot would be a little weird for the rapier but I’m not completely against it. When talking about the second problem I think it’s a lot more complicated and although I do kind od like your idea of punishing daggers more when they hit a shield, I also think a good nerf to the rondel would be to give it a 3-4 hit set so that it falls more in line with the rogue playstyle of in and out and more so nerfs bards and fighters holding W key at you.
i think nerfing daggers in a different way that isn't just reduce their base dmg but rather address the gear, perk dmg stacking, and buffs is a healthier method. because then we can look at how they actually perform and make changes as needed (buff or nerf or rework).
Rapier is a class + gear issue because of its innate benefits. Short sword a weapon with way more weaknesses has a sour spot and shorter reach, most swords have a sour spot so its very odd that a weapon that is meant to be a kiting tool can also just W key face hug because there isn't a sour spot to punish it
I always agreed with what you stated that rondel should have a hit set and not just keep swinging
Think there is many ways to always adjust weapons to make the more usable across the board without needed some weird dmg stacking cheese to make them usable or just dominate the game. Heavy respect the counter arguments and perspectives because I should have mentioned them as they are solid questions to ask.
I disagree with you on certain points here, but have some valid points as well:
Disagreements:
1) if you nerf dagger and rapier then rogue virtually doesn't have a viable weapon
2) daggers have a HUGE weakness despite you not believing they do [i.e., low range]. A ranger with backstep + spear is going to annihilate you, a longsword user should get at least one free hit in before you even enter range [and then it hits significantly harder so you better land 2 attacks quick enough to compensate for that but by then the longsword user is already hitting u with their 2nd swing].
Agreements:
1) Rapier is a weapon that really doesnt have a "weakness" It's pretty busted.
2) True dmg is kind of problematic, but the implications of removing it would require toning down things like fighter PDR [otherwise they'd be OP when a phys damage user fights them]
In Between:
1) All weapons should be viable and be able to stand on their viability in it of themselves; HOWEVER, there is always going to be "better" weapons and therefore a meta, so that may be just more of a utopian/wishful-thinking sort of thinking.
I really like the first point you brought out. if this was a longer video I should have mentioned stuff like that.
However nerfing them in terms of adding more risk to being block stunned or rapier having a sour spot will only be a nerf for the players who developed bad habits. Now their dmg it can be a back and forth adjustments to find a solid middle ground, maybe their base dmg can be higher but less ways of stacking flat/true.
2nd part is true only true if you consider movement abilities like back step or sprint. but in most cases a dagger can easily close the distance and if you are running the typical PDR bard/fighter dagger, the range isn't much of an issue. So I agree could have stated that the reach can be a weakness but isn't enough to consider the weapon type balanced. Also daggers eat longswords in many of the situations. You can get on top of the longsword user before he is able to finish his combo or land 3 solid headshots. Sometimes in the high end, you don't even bother spacing, you just W key them and win the trade.
PDR has a ton of counters but it is true that it will become too strong again if true phy is removed, but I think that be healthier to nerf tru phy and if PDR needs another nerf on the high end then that's fine as well. dealing with problematic metas by adding more isn't a good design.
In relation to "All weapons should be viable and able to stand on their own viability" yes there will always be a meta, but if the core concepts and design of the weapons are strong and well made, even with metas it will be easier to overcome because the weapons can do more than just the current gimmick. Plenty of weapons in video games are not meta but used often because they are just a solid choice and perform well if you but a bit of practice into it.
Obviously its never going to be perfect but the mindset with that statement is to strive for better design choices and creative solutions to problems. I respect the arguments and they bring up good points and have valid counter arguments to what I said in the video.
@@GavinDaGrey Daggers are really dumb and hard to balance. Either you have something thats completely useless or have something that's almost a guaranteed win. I have no problem with it being a super easy win... on a rogue. The stupid pard is when other melee class's get the dagger too cause now you have a class thats built around HP and Armor and now it gets this crazy dps weapon too.
Idk i have to agree a bit here because i see alot of classes having a rondal dagger build people are favoring even fighter who can use any wep chooses rondal so theres gotta be somthing to it.
Kai the goat 🐐✨
This feels more like bias against finesse weapons. This wipe feels more balanced than ever cept for casters and druid. I don't think daggers or rapier are the best at all not even close.
@@itsAlanick atm a lot of the classes are using things like daggers, rapiers and even other weird fast weapons like hatchet 2-3 tapping squishes.
I used daggers and rapier before and they generally perform very well. There different ways of approaching a nerf, sometimes it's not a nerf dmg directly but changing how it's applied or how it scales can often be a better solution because most of these issues are more obvious in between 124 and 224+ gear scores.
If rapiers and daggers weren't the best then bards would stick to falchions or arming swords. Rogues would only use shortswords and rondel fighter would have not been popular. Even warlock lost the ability to use kriss dagger because of this issue. More examples can be brought up but the general point is that is generally true that the weapons who naturally swing fast, benefit from dmg perk stacking, added flat/true dmg from gear or song/spell buff will benefit them more than if they where applied to a slower swinging weapon with less natural advantages other than higher base dmg.
After watching you play a fighter with a mace I've realized you have bigger issues than daggers.
???
sounds like a skill issue
erm scallops
is it a skill issue when a class not even mean't to use the dagger is meta when using a dagger lmao, Fucking fighter dagger builds are stupid.
Man was killed by a rogue or rondal fighter and said that's it, this needs to change I should never die.
I find it crazy that they give caster classes melee weapons when what they should be doing is giving them more spells. Warlock and sorcerer are great examples. Warlock has hardly any spells and they compensate it by giving them falchion or longsword. The sorcerer is just a terrible class without melee weapons which makes no sense.
@@notmychannelname42 think it's fine for casters to have a melee weapon, but man I agree that warlock needs new spells to be more interesting, it's a seperate issue but some of the older classes are starting to feel outdated in design.
skill issue 100% if you dont think lonsword is best melee in game lol
I watched 1:30 and I already see that this is a uneducated take aka skill issue. The fastest weapons in the game is way harder to both reach and headshot with than the slower weapons. War maul is literally the best melee weapon in the game if you get close before using it. Flanged mace is very fast but its small hitbox and up to down swipe is really hard to hit so if you want to be consistent with it you need skill. And don't get me started on perfecting the reach of the kris dagger slashes, hitting headshots with rondel, or hitting the last stab from the castillon. Weapons like War maul, bardiche, and falchion hit super hard which means if you are skilled enough to headshot with them you will win.
There are for sure balance changes to be made to the weapons of dark and darker, but the statement that big slow weps are bad and that fast and small weps are good is just the biggest piece of fake news and I surely hope the devs don't see this video and take it seriously.
"The fastest weapons in the game is way harder to both reach and headshot with than the slower weapons. War maul is literally the best melee weapon in the game if you get close before using it." ok this would have been interesting but you didn't elaborate and just went with petty insults.
ironic to say skill issue while thinking its hard to use rondel or castillon.
you say finese wep are supoased to kite but in reality should one tap you so i guess so every person should kite if you want the game to be realistic
@tomj0771 where did I say weapons are meant to be realistic? Curious
dude a barb 1 hit me with a bardiche yesterday.... so what ?
and im also sure the weapons overall are not fairly balanced ... but u might overstep a bit sir .
the game is just realy hard , and did u pvp once with an rouge with an dagger?
u might easy kill an ranger or mager but an barb or fighter gonna be hard.
@@sebastianleister355 I have played rogue with Castillon and rondel. It's not as hard as people think, bardiche only 1 taps if you don't build hp or wear ok armor. Plus it's easy to space the first swing
anyone who's played a barbarian knows that we deserve the one shot lol, literally every other class can kite or out range a barbarian. the one/two shotting is LITERALLY the quirk of the class
Play rogue for a day using only rapier or daggers.
Then tell me how it's overpowered and not skill diff when you kill a decent barb/fighter/cleric/bard/druid/sorcerer with it in a 1v1 or even in teamfights so you notice the extra complexity that comes with you being squishy combined with melee w short range.
Not meant as disrespect but on a rogue; it is at exactly the right spot if you ask me, I'd like to see how I'm false if I am.
I'm sure there's issues in weapon balance, but I doubt the daggers and rapiers themselves are the issue.
@@Peets001 saying play x class with standard weapon choices isn't really a gacha.
If you as a rogue can't take out a fighter or cleric, then use a build that counters then, they are quite effective. Also the "squishy" part as of this wipe is very dishonest because rogue has way more hp pool or as much as most casters with higher ms.
Either way the video isn't about rogue so not sure where this conclusion comes from
Is this made from a fighter perspective
the video isn't about class balance, and I have played all of the melee classes. Its about how there is a lot of flaws with how weapons are designed and how generally fast weapons scale way better with gear vs a large amount 2h weapons fail to perform at their level unless its a barbarian using perks to stack a ton of free dmg
Yeah idk about this lol. Most of this is a skill issue
Dnd players are mostly decrepit old men so trying to get actual valid criticism seems to be a struggle
The only weapon i see that has a actual problem is ls and its riposte, getting parries with it isnt that hard but when u do land one you pretty much win the fight instantly
@@IAmDocTho longsword? That's the least op weapon my guy. It's pretty easy to counter
@@notakai_exe pretty easy to counter yet getting 2 taps is common
@@notakai_exe doesnt really make sense if its easy to counter and people die to it and its used by almost every warlock and sorc lol
@@notakai_exe and since i have your attention, classes that use maces destroy classes that mainly use light weapons (bard/rogue) bard gets completely cooked by clerics if they know what they're doing, so I cant fully agree with the way you see light weapons rn
Never did I expect to see a kid crying about MELEE 😂😂 always been ranged/spells
not sure where that conclusion came from but go off ig
Following the D&D style:
Game should be balanced around type of armor vs type of incoming dmg (Blunt, slash, pierce, etc).
That should be the number one modifier that REALLY makes dmg be great or not.
Like you are Knifing a FullPlate Character? dmg should be almost null but will really pop off against unequiped or leather characters.
Everything else you said, sounds like skill expression :P
this is an awful take lmao, im assuming youve never played rogue or bard and have only ever played fighter and barb
@@largebone4229 played all the melee classes actually, bard was the easiest one to abuse. Rogue was alright, but people undermine it's strengths too much.
This video isn't about x class op it's about general balance issues between weapons and how their flaws impact the game.