That the crime that was the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is still to this day denied, and not widely known, is another crime. Dr Pappe is brilliant and eloquent in his righteous anger and truth-telling
Mr Pappe you have in this talk, defeated the coward Arab rulers who are blaming the victims in Palestine, instead of showing who is the aggressor, Bin Salman, Al Sissi, and Muhammad bin Zayid of UAE. plus all the hidden stooges who rules the Arabs from Iraq to Morocco. A man like you can teach humanity what honesty means. your henesty and impartiality are kindling hope in the hearts of the trodden. Thank you
TRifai1 well people that believe in lies always exist , so much thta you say something at the end you will believe that is true, so i understand how the people feel that what he says is true , because is more easy to admit his true3 than to really analize the reality , to see who is who , and in from what kind of terrorist israel is in fronbt, that is attemptingt to not only jewish the same to catholics and arabs too, so continue believein in elephants in the skys, good for you
we know who are the terrorists today that, pappe want to point to israel to say that is a terrorist country , well i think that he has some trauma with israel. is not normal to say sometthing like that, i invite you to visite israel and you will see how are we in real. everybody that visit israel leave saying that they want to return
haia tova That's not what I heard from people who have actually visited Israel. No one's saying all the people are unpleasant, I know many good Israelis. This is more about the government and the authorities.
israel is a nice country to visit, modern ,advanced, creative, with nice geography and nice people, nice for turist in, liberal, full of all kind of people , from a lot of countries,
Golam Sarwar great for nothing, has nothing to do . is a waste of time . only for people that doestn think or doesnt know realities , is easy to sell to them a pill
In 1948 there were only about 50 countries in the UN, it was still a 'white man's club', USA/European Empires/Japan/Canada/Australia/NZ/India/Taiwan/European States/White S Africa etc.
He's a proven liar. And what reconciliation can we hope for when people who profess to be working for peace simply wish for Israel to be gone from the map?
HeadofIbis Ahh, the New Republic, a right-wing screed-rag! I read it, and as an historian myself, find some damaging (if accurate) criticism of his histories there. I also find an equal load of laughable shameful nonsense---for ex. the 1940s "collapse of Palestinian culture and politics," which is almost as good as America's "disappearing Indians," who of course just up and left because better people had arrived. You and hack Benny Morris leave out what (for ex.) Israeli Miko Peled shows, that the 1940s "offer" of a 2-state solution was INTENDED to start a war with Arabs (giving more than half the land to far less than half the people, Jews) because Israelis were far more organized for war and conquest. What, then (if not ethnic cleansing) did cause so many Palestinians to "leave"? Where did over 500 of their villages "go"? Good ol' Benny just glides right by it all. I'll take Pappe's minor problems any day.
(continued) they had lots of goodwill after ww2 also England was very weakened after ww2 (yet again). What happened was that the Israeli's exploited the goodwill of the western world and the inability to act at the UN to conquer and repress the ORIGINAL people of Palestine. Every war or 'terror' action that has happened since then has been a result of an occupation of a Palestine by a people who have no right to the land.
“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.” - Palestinian Authority (then) Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) (Falastin a-Thaura, (March 1976)
The only relatively good argument that the Israeli's have for occupying Palestine is their faith, an argument that is just as valid for the muslims (most Palestinians) and Christians as it is for the jews. To sum up: What happened was that the Jewish people moved to Palestine, at a time when the country couldn't defend itself and threw out the people who lived there, stole their possesions and ruined their culture. I've tried to be calm and more importantly logical, please return that courtesy.
My father is an 86 year old Jew. I try to tell him about the Nakba, how the official Israeli government documents prove that the State of Israel engaged in deliberate "ethnic cleansing" of the native population. I offered to show him the evidence. He responded with the most insane rage, refused to look at any of the evidence and called me a Jew hater! It is really incredible to me. He is not a stupid man and is not a racist, not even religious in any way. But there is no talking to him about it.
I think one of the main things is that right now their is a lot of problems that does exist that has carried over in history over time. These problems seem to be as though it cannot be resolved between the two. It seems as though their really are no rules to the killing and I think Pappe makes a good comment that if he has the formula he would use it and show us because it is not right for the destruction and cleansing of one race.
I think it is you who need to get your facts straight. The 1922 Mandate document was precisely that, a a 'mandate' for the temporary administration of the area. The land of Palestine was favoured as a national home for the Jews under the Balfour Declaration, but no definite conditions, boundaries, etc had been established. Where does this 'legitimate birth certificate' to the land come from? From 3000 years ago? There is not one citizen of Israel today who could trace his ancestral right.
Hopefully eventually Hague will haul all these thugs and rogues from Israel to stand trial for humanity ; starter get criminals like Benjamin Netanyahu, BG Gen Avichai Rontzki, Shimon Peres, Hosni Mubarak, Lt. Col. Avital Leibovitch etc.
in April-July 1948. “The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way” (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986; See also Morris, pp. 263 & 590-592).
The Economist, reported on October 2, 1948: “Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit... It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.”
“The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two,” Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al-Janub (August 16, 1948). “Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the ’Zionist gangs’ very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.”
I agree with you in principle ( I would prefer it to be a one state for all citizens rather than creating two states, but I agree with the essence of your words that the law shoudl be implemented and that you cannot crete a state for one sthnic group, it is fascist indeed).But I would like to know your opinion about Koenigsberg Germans who were transfered from their homes in 1945 (and from many other places as well)
In 1950 Israel passed the Absentee Land law seizing all land and assets without compensation of all Palestinian refugees AND all non-Israeli Jews who stayed in Israel but left their homes. Israel also razed hundreds of centuries old palestinian villages to be sure of no return. I assume you will be as vitriolic and venomous for Israel doing the same.
Whoa- You didn't address the analogy between seized Jewish assets by Arab countries and seized land and assets of Palestinian Arabs by Israel. Who fired the first shots in the 1967 war?
The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: “Any opposition to this order... is an obstacle to the holy war... and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts.” The Arab Higher Committee also ordered the evacuation of “several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more”
its funny how many try to destroy Illan Pappe credibility. As a jewish Israeli citizen it would have been so easy to have shut his mouth and been part of the minions who support Israel. However he has a conscience. and it comes to him at a price. His life has been threatened and he had to leave Israel when his wife and family's life were threatened. The man is amazing and very brave.
Give me one example of one of his supposed lies. If you accuse someone of being a liar, it's not enough to make the general accusation or to quote someone else who has made the accusation. You must be specific.
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave: “Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return” (The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Beirut, 1973, Part 1, pp. 386-387).
On the 76th anniversary, Americans need to learn some actual history and then they might want to change the present, for peace and justice for Palestine. Thank you, South Africa, and the International Court of Justice, but Gaza can't wait much longer.
I assume you mean what he is talking about here? His book is based on American, English and Israeli report that were kept secret for 30 years. If you want to find out whether your statement is correct (It isn't) you could just look up his sources and actually present a reasonable argument other than "he is a shameful liar" which is just something that you said because you disagree with the man.
You have not stated any of these alleged distorts- you have simply referred me to a whole website and expected me to find the example to back up your point. As I said, it's like me referring you to, say, the whole of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine without specifically referring you to a page. And thank you for the lesson on the origin of Zion, which of course I was already familiar with. And what is your point there? I find offensive your accusation of me as racist. Let's leave it there!
Time’s report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: “The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.”
This whole Nabka (catastophe) was brought onto the Palestinians by their own doing. Had they accepted the UN partition plan they way Israel did they could have lived in mutual peace and prosperity. I don't feel badly for aggressors who promise to drive a whole people "into the sea" and lose after ganging up them with other countries. And why doesn't anyone mention the 800,00 Jews that were thrown out of Arab countries simply for being Jewish (and having all their land & assets stolen)?
Winston Churchill stated that Israel “In Palestine as of Right and Not on Sufferance ...” “When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community,.." [continued in next post]
some videos with statistics to complement this talk: Israel analysis - Right of Return; Israel analysis - Displaced People; I hate Israel - I wish it would go away; Israel analysis - Wars; Israel analysis - Zionism
I've told you, stop quoting rubbish websites. I do not need one to tell me that anti-Zionism does NOT equal anti-Semitism. If you believe that, you are seriously lacking in the ability to think logically. My Jewish friends, for instance, will tell you that I am certainly not anti-Semitic, but I am certainly anti-Zionist.
Again, WILL YOU STOP OFFERING ME WEBSITES? All that does is offer someone else's opinion which happens to coincide with yours. And once again, this is simply a personal attack, with no specific reference. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
He is also way ahead of himself... if he is humanist, this will take generations... I would like to see more humane Arab leaders!!! and that would soften Israelis!!! He wants to work with Hamas and Hezbollah... lovely...
What you're saying is true, of course. But greywolf's problem is not related to facts or proof, but to the rigid frame of mind of someone being a pro "something or other". A proof cannot change the state of mind of such a person, only a personal traumatic event can. So, discussion is useless. But most likely nothing intresting will happen to him and he will stay the same for the rest of his natural life and, as they say, "nothing intresting happens to unintresting people"
Here’s how the 1967 war started. On 5/17/67 Egypt was ready to unleash its “fighting tigers” on Israel & demanded that the UN peacekeeping force be withdrawn. Sec. Gen. agreed which set the stage for the war. Meanwhile sabotage, fedayeen raids, & shelling from the Golan Heights - all encouraged by Syria - increased & Israel finally responded after an exchange of fire, striking artillery positions that were raking Israel. Then an air battle ensued & Syria ran to Egypt to aid them. Continued
community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.” Winston Churchill June 1922
It's a very lazy way of arguing simply to give several references to works by others to your opponent. I have gratefully taken your suggestion and already ordered some of Karsh's work, which I look forward to reading. But I want you to refer to one of Pappe's alleged lies with your own opinion on it, backed up by a specific reference. I can just as easily refer you to the whole of, say, Alan Hart's 'Zionism, the Real Enemy of the Jews', which would be useless without specifics.
Oh do stop expressing your hallucinations, please, Ma Neuwirth. Can you please give me a specific example of one of these alleged lies of Pappe's? I am now going to take our suggestion and google Pappe's admission of fabrications.
Have u ever heard this names? Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim I'm sure you've never heard such names Well if u're Jewish or Christians then read Genesis; Chapter 10 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth, (Ge.10:13-15) Palestinians lived in the land of Canaan before even the words "Israel, Jew; Juda, Judea" came to existance
palestinians are not caanites.... its hilarious that palestinians have 0 history to confirm their rule of the land so they use the caanite theory to legitimize their claim. When in fact caanites dont exist in this day and age just like many of the past civilization. Palestinians never had a ruler or ancient currency even archeologically they loose the war. They are nothing more than arab inhabitants that were farmers, fisherman. While i disgree what happened to move those farmers on that land to make room for jewish settlers they have no actual historical right but present right instead. jews had over 20 kings that ruled israel for 1000 years and after 70 AD were put in exile. Since then the migrants coming in and out of the land have shaped what the land is today 2000 years later after exile. Is it fair to take something you lost 2000 years ago and make the inhabitants of modern day suffer. No. Palestinians sadly were never strong enough, united and properly sourced. They never owned the land in history not 1 year in the thousands of years in its existence. So to claim a land to a people that never ruled as a people is complete idiocracy.
Egypt responded by massing troops & tanks in Sinai near the Israeli border & was ready to strike. Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran to Israel a waterway that was the lifeblood of Israel in defiance of international law (A causus belli/act of war). Israel was within its rights to try open those straits by force. Egypt imposed a blockade first in the Gulf of Akaba & the Suez Canal knowing that Israel had repeatedly warned that blocking these straits would be tantamount to a declaration of war.
Incredible! I've never heard such claim I thought the Philistines were the descendants of Ham And the Greeks were the descendants of Japheth And this is according to your own Bible and ur own scholarship U r ready to say anything just to justify ur wrong opinion I'm really sorry for you!
@pstcontrl i know quiet well history. i studied it in high school and i read couple books about it. yes, 7 armies did attack israel and israel managed to repell them in 48. you're mixing a bit history, that thing with the flight belongs to 73 war not 48. also syria, jordan, iraq, lebanon faught against israel back in 48. egypt was maybe the most dominent power to launch war against israel. in short: "am israel chai" =].
Google - Official British Police Report Regarding Jews' Appeal to Arabs -District Police Headquarters (C.I.D.) P.O.B. 700. Haifa. 26th April, 1948. S E C R E T A/A.I.G., C.I.D. "...At a meeting yesterday afternoon Arab leaders reiterated their determination to evacuate the entire Arab population and they have been given the loan of ten 3-ton military trucks as from this morning to assist the evacuation."
And here you are again! Have you read my recent post on the way people like you conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism? And please, don't criticise my influences when the best you can offer is this blatantly biased 'Camera'. Yes, Ms Neuwirth, let us hope that within our lifetimes we may see a peaceful end to the situation in Israel. The status quo is not the way forward. surely we both agree on that?
“The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade,” said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). “He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean... "
@alandpwhittaker benny is not the only one to disse him, there're others as well. with all due repect to pappe and their isn't that much, too much negative comments from professionals who know something make him a bit unreliable sources. you probably don't know hebrew but the writing of these fellas may help you: ram oren, tom segev, israel bruck, amos eilon and etc. a lot of what the arabs say stem from the reason to humiliate israel at all costs even to lie. their''s always something fishy.
That's the second time you've suggested I 'look deep into the mirror'! Not a particularly pleasant sight, Let me try to explain the lack of logic which many Zionists use. All anti-Semites will definitely he anti-Israel, but many of the people critical of Israel's policies are not necessarily anti-Semitic. In the same way, all cats have four legs, but that does not make Rover, who has for legs, a cat. So many Zionists, especially in USA, use this 'logic'.
have you read "he invention of the jewish people " by SHLONO SAND? your points if i can called them that are very weak. to put it nicely. what about this famous jewish culture of a discuission augurement. you just resort to propagnda and your refrance to varoius "hebrew" writers is not really a point is it! if they were real international profis their work would be translated. but living in your own fish bowl well!
Ilan Pappe is known as a fabricator of Israeli history. He was kicked out from Haifa University because of fabrication with his student, named Tedy Katz, an MA thesis. The thesis was canceled by the University, a very unusual act by any university. In addition Prof. Efraim Karsh in his book "Fabricating Israel History" shows many examples of Pappe fabrications. Pappe's own words: "There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened. I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings…" ("An Interview of Ilan Pappé," Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999) Benny Morris writes: "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world's sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two. Such distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.” There is nothing to add on this issue.
Dr.Andrea Pennestri All Pappe’s stories are completely false and your conclusion is false as well. Who decide what is true? Your logic is weird. I hope that as a psychologist you use your logic in a better way.
mycamrea9 Is Benny Morris a liar? Pappe is only one of a number of historians who have (rightly) corrected the myths of 'an empty land' and other Joan Peters type nonsense. Only by accepting the truth of the birth of Israel can we move forward. The only difference between Pappe and Morris, Shavitt and the rest is that he doesn't excuse it or justify it. I salute his courage in doing that. There are a lot of Israeli historians you are gonna be angry at.....
Nasser also puts his forces in the demilitarized Sinai after kicking out UN peacekeeping forces. Nasser said he was ready to destroy Israel and Cairo radio blared, “no Jew will remain alive.” Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon chimed in on Nasser’s side and the Soviet Union provided all the weapons. Israel knew that she could not allow a war to be fought on her soil and since all of her cities were within bombing range. So on June 5, 1967 Israel struck and won a decided victory.
yes, What Mr. Peppe is talking about has no legs to stand under international law or the fact that such distinct people called "Palestinians" do not exist even today or that there was a sovereign power called Palestine. Historical Palestine was merely a geographical area historically connected with the Jewish nation. Israel never had such policy to expel/''ethnic cleanse' anyone. there are Arab Israelis who are living in Israel enjoying full equality even better than some Jewish/Palestinian.
Not only you got credible sites but also I stated to you a few facts that Peope's egregiously distorts, Indeed, when you talk anti-Zionism you mean anti-Semitism. What is Zionism? -- Definition: an 18th century movement to RE-ESTABLISH and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in their ancestral/historical and legal home land of Israel/holy-land/Palestina. ZION means the hill of Jerusalem on which the city of David was built 3000 yrs ago; the Jewish people or religion.
I am not trying to offend or provoke you but simply telling you what it is as I was born and lived there; and turned every stone. And I do have many Arab friends there whom I love. I have given you enough resources and several facts but perhaps it is you who try to offend and provoke me, twinkle twinkle little star what you say is what you are!
It doesn't matter, because you've already made up your mind. No one is so unwilling to learn as someone who can't accept that their "cause" may be flawed. Continue believing what you want, Mr. "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts". My life will be unaffected by the hatred you show towards Israel, but Israel will survive and flourish while you stew in your own juices and hate. That's the difference between Israeli and Palestinians.
I've no love for Benny Morris; don't misunderstand me! But you simply label anyone whose facts you don't like as 'pseudo-academic'. I've no doubt you'd even make such an ad hominem attack on Noam Chomsky!
@alandpwhittaker "armed to the teeth"=] in 48 israel was armed maybe by some lousy stan rifles, grenades and couple morters...arabs had airplanes,warships, tanks and etc. it's proven that small portion of the arab population was driven out. most of them fled because they were afraid or because the invaing arab forces told them that they would return after their victory. believe me in other civil wars in the world many other atrocities happend that didn't recieve such attention. also arabs drove
Your "facts" are wrong. According to British Mandate records, 76% of the land west of the Jordan River was STATE land, not belogning to any individual or group. The remaining 24% was almost equally divided between Jews and Jewish groups, individual Arab landwoners and Arab absentee landlords living outside of Palestine.
That the crime that was the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is still to this day denied, and not widely known, is another crime. Dr Pappe is brilliant and eloquent in his righteous anger and truth-telling
ua-cam.com/video/n1_dc2wuteg/v-deo.htmlsi=Dpec1BT9FWrox-H2
😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you for your great work how you tell the world the truth about Palestine and Israel. God Bless You Ilan Pappe ! (y)
Mr Pappe you have in this talk, defeated the coward Arab rulers who are blaming the victims in Palestine, instead of showing who is the aggressor, Bin Salman, Al Sissi, and Muhammad bin Zayid of UAE. plus all the hidden stooges who rules the Arabs from Iraq to Morocco.
A man like you can teach humanity what honesty means. your henesty and impartiality are kindling hope in the hearts of the trodden. Thank you
Finally someone who speaks the truth.
TRifai1 well people that believe in lies always exist , so much thta you say something at the end you will believe that is true, so i understand how the people feel that what he says is true , because is more easy to admit his true3 than to really analize the reality , to see who is who , and in from what kind of terrorist israel is in fronbt, that is attemptingt to not only jewish the same to catholics and arabs too, so continue believein in elephants in the skys, good for you
haia tova I never said Catholics and Arabs didn't have terrorists.
we know who are the terrorists today that, pappe want to point to israel to say that is a terrorist country , well i think that he has some trauma with israel. is not normal to say sometthing like that, i invite you to visite israel and you will see how are we in real. everybody that visit israel leave saying that they want to return
haia tova That's not what I heard from people who have actually visited Israel. No one's saying all the people are unpleasant, I know many good Israelis. This is more about the government and the authorities.
israel is a nice country to visit, modern ,advanced, creative, with nice geography and nice people, nice for turist in, liberal, full of all kind of people , from a lot of countries,
you are great mr Pappe
Golam Sarwar great for nothing, has nothing to do . is a waste of time . only for people that doestn think or doesnt know realities , is easy to sell to them a pill
@@hato4130 lol jew
@@hato4130 you are a troubled person who really needs help
Professor Pappe, God blesses you, you deserve our respect the way your courage makes us conscious the sad reality in Palestine.
"If I don't steal your house, someone else is gonna steal it." - Yakub, 2021
Ah - the fake video made by amateurs in new Jersey. Nope. Boule sheeet
I believe this honest historian is a prominent hero who should be honoured and rewarded with the highest prize in the world.
Well done. The truth - for a change
Please don't stop your efforts Mr Pappe. I can sense divine progress coming.
In 1948 there were only about 50 countries in the UN, it was still a 'white man's club', USA/European Empires/Japan/Canada/Australia/NZ/India/Taiwan/European States/White S Africa etc.
When one speaks out against the rest....then comes the venom!
He seems moderate. Unlike some of the hasbara commenters here. I wish jews and palestininians can reconcile.
He's a proven liar. And what reconciliation can we hope for when people who profess to be working for peace simply wish for Israel to be gone from the map?
HeadofIbis "gone from the map"
Who would that be ? Sounds like the propaganda about Ahmadinejad saying that.
HeadofIbis Perhaps you can demonstrate his lie? Otherwise, stop trolling with your nonsense. It's Zionism that's doomed, not Israel.
You can start by reading this: www.newrepublic.com/article/books/magazine/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian
HeadofIbis Ahh, the New Republic, a right-wing screed-rag! I read it, and as an historian myself, find some damaging (if accurate) criticism of his histories there. I also find an equal load of laughable shameful nonsense---for ex. the 1940s "collapse of Palestinian culture and politics," which is almost as good as America's "disappearing Indians," who of course just up and left because better people had arrived. You and hack Benny Morris leave out what (for ex.) Israeli Miko Peled shows, that the 1940s "offer" of a 2-state solution was INTENDED to start a war with Arabs (giving more than half the land to far less than half the people, Jews) because Israelis were far more organized for war and conquest. What, then (if not ethnic cleansing) did cause so many Palestinians to "leave"? Where did over 500 of their villages "go"? Good ol' Benny just glides right by it all. I'll take Pappe's minor problems any day.
(continued) they had lots of goodwill after ww2 also England was very weakened after ww2 (yet again). What happened was that the Israeli's exploited the goodwill of the western world and the inability to act at the UN to conquer and repress the ORIGINAL people of Palestine. Every war or 'terror' action that has happened since then has been a result of an occupation of a Palestine by a people who have no right to the land.
You’re a wonderful human
hats off to Dr Ilan Pappe for the courage and dexterity to challenge the criminals of modern age who are a scourge on earth ....... ALLAH bless you
“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”
- Palestinian Authority (then) Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) (Falastin a-Thaura, (March 1976)
The only relatively good argument that the Israeli's have for occupying Palestine is their faith, an argument that is just as valid for the muslims (most Palestinians) and Christians as it is for the jews.
To sum up: What happened was that the Jewish people moved to Palestine, at a time when the country couldn't defend itself and threw out the people who lived there, stole their possesions and ruined their culture.
I've tried to be calm and more importantly logical, please return that courtesy.
My father is an 86 year old Jew. I try to tell him about the Nakba, how the official Israeli government documents prove that the State of Israel engaged in deliberate "ethnic cleansing" of the native population. I offered to show him the evidence. He responded with the most insane rage, refused to look at any of the evidence and called me a Jew hater! It is really incredible to me. He is not a stupid man and is not a racist, not even religious in any way. But there is no talking to him about it.
I think one of the main things is that right now their is a lot of problems that does exist that has carried over in history over time. These problems seem to be as though it cannot be resolved between the two. It seems as though their really are no rules to the killing and I think Pappe makes a good comment that if he has the formula he would use it and show us because it is not right for the destruction and cleansing of one race.
I think it is you who need to get your facts straight. The 1922 Mandate document was precisely that, a a 'mandate' for the temporary administration of the area. The land of Palestine was favoured as a national home for the Jews under the Balfour Declaration, but no definite conditions, boundaries, etc had been established. Where does this 'legitimate birth certificate' to the land come from? From 3000 years ago? There is not one citizen of Israel today who could trace his ancestral right.
Hopefully eventually Hague will haul all these thugs and rogues from Israel to stand trial for humanity ; starter get criminals like Benjamin Netanyahu, BG Gen Avichai Rontzki, Shimon Peres, Hosni Mubarak, Lt. Col. Avital Leibovitch etc.
This man has done a lot to highlight the Palestinian cause.In fact, he has done more than all arab leaders put together. I salute you, sir.
in April-July 1948. “The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way” (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986; See also Morris, pp. 263 & 590-592).
The Economist, reported on October 2, 1948: “Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit... It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.”
I take that as a resounding "NO" to my request for your own thoughts on the issues I raised that discredit the Zionist line
Oh, please, no! You lot will deny anything. And Pappe was NOT discredited on this one either. His student's evidence on Tantura is well documented.
“The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two,” Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al-Janub (August 16, 1948). “Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the ’Zionist gangs’ very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.”
Like any professional historian, his work is packed with sources. So the Haganah Archive and Ben Gurion's diaries are lies, are they?
I agree with you in principle ( I would prefer it to be a one state for all citizens rather than creating two states, but I agree with the essence of your words that the law shoudl be implemented and that you cannot crete a state for one sthnic group, it is fascist indeed).But I would like to know your opinion about Koenigsberg Germans who were transfered from their homes in 1945 (and from many other places as well)
In 1950 Israel passed the Absentee Land law seizing all land and assets without compensation of all Palestinian refugees AND all non-Israeli Jews who stayed in Israel but left their homes. Israel also razed hundreds of centuries old palestinian villages to be sure of no return. I assume you will be as vitriolic and venomous for Israel doing the same.
Whoa- You didn't address the analogy between seized Jewish assets by Arab countries and seized land and assets of Palestinian Arabs by Israel.
Who fired the first shots in the 1967 war?
You claim the Palestinians don't exist and that the arabs became refugees by choice, and call Pappe a liar and a jerk.
You really don't see the irony?
The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: “Any opposition to this order... is an obstacle to the holy war... and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts.” The Arab Higher Committee also ordered the evacuation of “several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more”
its funny how many try to destroy Illan Pappe credibility. As a jewish Israeli citizen it would have been so easy to have shut his mouth and been part of the minions who support Israel. However he has a conscience. and it comes to him at a price. His life has been threatened and he had to leave Israel when his wife and family's life were threatened. The man is amazing and very brave.
Give me one example of one of his supposed lies. If you accuse someone of being a liar, it's not enough to make the general accusation or to quote someone else who has made the accusation. You must be specific.
I don't need to. His 'conversion' is only in his opinion, which I have already mentioned.The facts have not altered.
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return” (The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, Beirut, 1973, Part 1, pp. 386-387).
Your films are so sad, but tell the truth. I have shared the films, but there seems to be no interest.
On the 76th anniversary, Americans need to learn some actual history and then they might want to change the present, for peace and justice for Palestine. Thank you, South Africa, and the International Court of Justice, but Gaza can't wait much longer.
I assume you mean what he is talking about here? His book is based on American, English and Israeli report that were kept secret for 30 years.
If you want to find out whether your statement is correct (It isn't) you could just look up his sources and actually present a reasonable argument other than "he is a shameful liar" which is just something that you said because you disagree with the man.
Also, Google: Historical Fictions or Fabricating Israel History
by Professor Efraim Karsh
You have not stated any of these alleged distorts- you have simply referred me to a whole website and expected me to find the example to back up your point. As I said, it's like me referring you to, say, the whole of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine without specifically referring you to a page. And thank you for the lesson on the origin of Zion, which of course I was already familiar with. And what is your point there? I find offensive your accusation of me as racist. Let's leave it there!
Time’s report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: “The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.”
What a great man.
This whole Nabka (catastophe) was brought onto the Palestinians by their own doing. Had they accepted the UN partition plan they way Israel did they could have lived in mutual peace and prosperity. I don't feel badly for aggressors who promise to drive a whole people "into the sea" and lose after ganging up them with other countries. And why doesn't anyone mention the 800,00 Jews that were thrown out of Arab countries simply for being Jewish (and having all their land & assets stolen)?
Winston Churchill stated that Israel “In Palestine as of Right and Not on Sufferance ...”
“When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community,.."
[continued in next post]
@mosheshabo כהנה צדק! וחבל שב-48 לא השאירו באמת אף ערבי וגם את אלו שנכנעו לצה"ל אז. היה לנו אז חלון הזדמנויות מדהים.
some videos with statistics to complement this talk:
Israel analysis - Right of Return;
Israel analysis - Displaced People;
I hate Israel - I wish it would go away;
Israel analysis - Wars;
Israel analysis - Zionism
I've told you, stop quoting rubbish websites. I do not need one to tell me that anti-Zionism does NOT equal anti-Semitism. If you believe that, you are seriously lacking in the ability to think logically. My Jewish friends, for instance, will tell you that I am certainly not anti-Semitic, but I am certainly anti-Zionist.
Again, WILL YOU STOP OFFERING ME WEBSITES? All that does is offer someone else's opinion which happens to coincide with yours. And once again, this is simply a personal attack, with no specific reference. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
THIS PAPPE INVENTED THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE.
He is also way ahead of himself... if he is humanist, this will take generations... I would like to see more humane Arab leaders!!! and that would soften Israelis!!! He wants to work with Hamas and Hezbollah... lovely...
Yeah, "nicer" Palestinians would charm the Israelis right out of their illegal nukes...
Nealhugh Hurwitz How could one person have so much Love?
PALESTINIAN FAMILY NAMES AND THEIR ORIGIN
al-Masri (Egypt)
Iraqi (lraq)
al-Hijazi (Hijaz-Saudi-Arabia).
al-Saud (Saudi-Arabia)
Arafat (Saudi Arabia)
Bardawil (Egypt)
al-Baghdadi (Iraq)
Metzarwah (Egypt)
al-Tikriti (Iraq)
al-Husayni (Saudi-Arabia)
al-Qurashi (Saudi-Arabia)
Arab Abu-Kishk (Egypt)
al-Faruqi (Iraq)
Arab al-Shakirat (Egypt)
Hanniyeh (Saudi Arabia)
Darjani (Saudi-Arabia)
Arab al-Zabidat (Egypt)
Zubeidi (lraq)
Omaya (Saudi-Arabia)
Sinwar (Saudi-Arabia)
Hamad (Saudi - Arabia)
Zoabi (lraq)
Arab al-Aramsha (Egypt)
nl_Muchrabi al-Mughrabi (Morocco)
Abu Sitta (Egypt)
al-Yamani (Yemen )
al-Araj (Morocco)
al-Azd (Yemen)
Mattar (Yemen)
Haddadins (Yemen)
Murad (Yemen)
al-Shami (Syria)
Halabi (Syria)
Alawi (Syria)
al-Hourani (Syria)
al-Lubnani (Lebanon)
Tarabulsi (Lebanon)
al-Ubayyidi (Sudan)
Damaski (Syria)
god job god word
And I've just googled the New Republic. That quotation is from the odious Benny Morris, for chrissake!
in your own mind, Sir.
And father christmas and fairies exist.
What you're saying is true, of course. But greywolf's problem is not related to facts or proof, but to the rigid frame of mind of someone being a pro "something or other". A proof cannot change the state of mind of such a person, only a personal traumatic event can. So, discussion is useless. But most likely nothing intresting will happen to him and he will stay the same for the rest of his natural life and, as they say, "nothing intresting happens to unintresting people"
Here’s how the 1967 war started. On 5/17/67 Egypt was ready to unleash its “fighting tigers” on Israel & demanded that the UN peacekeeping force be withdrawn. Sec. Gen. agreed which set the stage for the war. Meanwhile sabotage, fedayeen raids, & shelling from the Golan Heights - all encouraged by Syria - increased & Israel finally responded after an exchange of fire, striking artillery positions that were raking Israel. Then an air battle ensued & Syria ran to Egypt to aid them. Continued
@avikau I guess all those old maps with Palestine on them, were just kind of illusions????
community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.”
Winston Churchill
June 1922
False data is easy to find. This particular map has been debunked so many times it isn't even worth doing it again.
Nice try, but no cigar...
It's a very lazy way of arguing simply to give several references to works by others to your opponent. I have gratefully taken your suggestion and already ordered some of Karsh's work, which I look forward to reading. But I want you to refer to one of Pappe's alleged lies with your own opinion on it, backed up by a specific reference. I can just as easily refer you to the whole of, say, Alan Hart's 'Zionism, the Real Enemy of the Jews', which would be useless without specifics.
Oh do stop expressing your hallucinations, please, Ma Neuwirth. Can you please give me a specific example of one of these alleged lies of Pappe's? I am now going to take our suggestion and google Pappe's admission of fabrications.
34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.
(Ge.21:34)
Have u ever heard this names? Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim
I'm sure you've never heard such names
Well if u're Jewish or Christians then read Genesis; Chapter 10
And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim,
And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim.
And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
(Ge.10:13-15)
Palestinians lived in the land of Canaan before even the words "Israel, Jew; Juda, Judea" came to existance
palestinians are not caanites.... its hilarious that palestinians have 0 history to confirm their rule of the land so they use the caanite theory to legitimize their claim. When in fact caanites dont exist in this day and age just like many of the past civilization. Palestinians never had a ruler or ancient currency even archeologically they loose the war. They are nothing more than arab inhabitants that were farmers, fisherman. While i disgree what happened to move those farmers on that land to make room for jewish settlers they have no actual historical right but present right instead. jews had over 20 kings that ruled israel for 1000 years and after 70 AD were put in exile. Since then the migrants coming in and out of the land have shaped what the land is today 2000 years later after exile. Is it fair to take something you lost 2000 years ago and make the inhabitants of modern day suffer. No. Palestinians sadly were never strong enough, united and properly sourced. They never owned the land in history not 1 year in the thousands of years in its existence. So to claim a land to a people that never ruled as a people is complete idiocracy.
That must be totally out of context. I simply can't believe that Dr King would have been so illogical.
Egypt responded by massing troops & tanks in Sinai near the Israeli border & was ready to strike. Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran to Israel a waterway that was the lifeblood of Israel in defiance of international law (A causus belli/act of war). Israel was within its rights to try open those straits by force. Egypt imposed a blockade first in the Gulf of Akaba & the Suez Canal knowing that Israel had repeatedly warned that blocking these straits would be tantamount to a declaration of war.
Please everyone with some sense of humanity bds everything about israhell!
Delusional man..give him the medications he needs..please
Incredible! I've never heard such claim
I thought the Philistines were the descendants of Ham
And the Greeks were the descendants of Japheth
And this is according to your own Bible and ur own scholarship
U r ready to say anything just to justify ur wrong opinion
I'm really sorry for you!
@pstcontrl i know quiet well history. i studied it in high school and i read couple books about it. yes, 7 armies did attack israel and israel managed to repell them in 48. you're mixing a bit history, that thing with the flight belongs to 73 war not 48. also syria, jordan, iraq, lebanon faught against israel back in 48. egypt was maybe the most dominent power to launch war against israel. in short: "am israel chai" =].
Google - Official British Police Report Regarding Jews' Appeal to Arabs -District Police Headquarters
(C.I.D.)
P.O.B. 700.
Haifa.
26th April, 1948.
S E C R E T
A/A.I.G., C.I.D.
"...At a meeting yesterday afternoon Arab leaders reiterated their determination to evacuate the entire Arab population and they have been given the loan of ten 3-ton military trucks as from this morning to assist the evacuation."
And here you are again! Have you read my recent post on the way people like you conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism?
And please, don't criticise my influences when the best you can offer is this blatantly biased 'Camera'.
Yes, Ms Neuwirth, let us hope that within our lifetimes we may see a peaceful end to the situation in Israel. The status quo is not the way forward. surely we both agree on that?
Can you give me some of your own thoughts on the three major flaws I have id'ed in the propaganda you are supporting?
spot on!
which proves exactly what???
“The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade,” said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). “He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean... "
👍
@alandpwhittaker benny is not the only one to disse him, there're others as well. with all due repect to pappe and their isn't that much, too much negative comments from professionals who know something make him a bit unreliable sources. you probably don't know hebrew but the writing of these fellas may help you: ram oren, tom segev, israel bruck, amos eilon and etc. a lot of what the arabs say stem from the reason to humiliate israel at all costs even to lie. their''s always something fishy.
Also, google: The Conversion Of Benny Morris. He like Pappe is pseudo-academics
That's the second time you've suggested I 'look deep into the mirror'! Not a particularly pleasant sight, Let me try to explain the lack of logic which many Zionists use. All anti-Semites will definitely he anti-Israel, but many of the people critical of Israel's policies are not necessarily anti-Semitic. In the same way, all cats have four legs, but that does not make Rover, who has for legs, a cat. So many Zionists, especially in USA, use this 'logic'.
have you read "he invention of the jewish people " by SHLONO SAND? your points if i can called them that are very weak. to put it nicely. what about this famous jewish culture of a discuission augurement. you just resort to propagnda and your refrance to varoius "hebrew" writers is not really a point is it! if they were real international profis their work would be translated. but living in your own fish bowl well!
Ilan Pappe is known as a fabricator of Israeli history. He was kicked out from Haifa University because of fabrication with his student, named Tedy Katz, an MA thesis. The thesis was canceled by the University, a very unusual act by any university. In addition Prof. Efraim Karsh in his book "Fabricating Israel History" shows many examples of Pappe fabrications.
Pappe's own words: "There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened. I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings…" ("An Interview of Ilan Pappé," Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999)
Benny Morris writes: "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world's sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two. Such distortions, large and small, characterize almost every page of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.”
There is nothing to add on this issue.
mycamrea9 It's caLLED TELLING THE tRUTH, REGARDLESS OF FABRICATED ZIONIST HISTORY
Dr.Andrea Pennestri All Pappe’s stories are completely false and your conclusion is false as well. Who decide what is true?
Your logic is weird. I hope that as a psychologist you use your logic in a better way.
mycamrea9 Is Benny Morris a liar? Pappe is only one of a number of historians who have (rightly) corrected the myths of 'an empty land' and other Joan Peters type nonsense. Only by accepting the truth of the birth of Israel can we move forward. The only difference between Pappe and Morris, Shavitt and the rest is that he doesn't excuse it or justify it. I salute his courage in doing that. There are a lot of Israeli historians you are gonna be angry at.....
Nasser also puts his forces in the demilitarized Sinai after kicking out UN peacekeeping forces. Nasser said he was ready to destroy Israel and Cairo radio blared, “no Jew will remain alive.” Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon chimed in on Nasser’s side and the Soviet Union provided all the weapons. Israel knew that she could not allow a war to be fought on her soil and since all of her cities were within bombing range. So on June 5, 1967 Israel struck and won a decided victory.
What are your "three major flaws"
1. "you are beyond reason"
2. "you are beyond reason"
3. "you are beyond reason"
Right?
no, i'm interested in truth and not in hasbara lies.
@alandpwhittaker here what true proessionals think about pappe:
watch?v=o8Wf9MYD5M4
You are beyond reason
Pray for Palestine
look deep in the mirror!
nakda shmakda it is a forgotten period as if it never happened..the palestinias are not a people the arab world made up the palestinians as a joke.
yes, What Mr. Peppe is talking about has no legs to stand under international law or the fact that such distinct people called "Palestinians" do not exist even today or that there was a sovereign power called Palestine. Historical Palestine was merely a geographical area historically connected with the Jewish nation. Israel never had such policy to expel/''ethnic cleanse' anyone. there are Arab Israelis who are living in Israel enjoying full equality even better than some Jewish/Palestinian.
Not only you got credible sites but also I stated to you a few facts that Peope's egregiously distorts, Indeed, when you talk anti-Zionism you mean anti-Semitism. What is Zionism? -- Definition: an 18th century movement to RE-ESTABLISH and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in their ancestral/historical and legal home land of Israel/holy-land/Palestina. ZION means the hill of Jerusalem on which the city of David was built 3000 yrs ago; the Jewish people or religion.
I am anti-Zionist, anti -Israel, Palestine will be free!
I am not trying to offend or provoke you but simply telling you what it is as I was born and lived there; and turned every stone. And I do have many Arab friends there whom I love. I have given you enough resources and several facts but perhaps it is you who try to offend and provoke me, twinkle twinkle little star what you say is what you are!
It doesn't matter, because you've already made up your mind. No one is so unwilling to learn as someone who can't accept that their "cause" may be flawed.
Continue believing what you want, Mr. "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts". My life will be unaffected by the hatred you show towards Israel, but Israel will survive and flourish while you stew in your own juices and hate.
That's the difference between Israeli and Palestinians.
I've no love for Benny Morris; don't misunderstand me! But you simply label anyone whose facts you don't like as 'pseudo-academic'. I've no doubt you'd even make such an ad hominem attack on Noam Chomsky!
@alandpwhittaker "armed to the teeth"=] in 48 israel was armed maybe by some lousy stan rifles, grenades and couple morters...arabs had airplanes,warships, tanks and etc. it's proven that small portion of the arab population was driven out. most of them fled because they were afraid or because the invaing arab forces told them that they would return after their victory. believe me in other civil wars in the world many other atrocities happend that didn't recieve such attention. also arabs drove
Your "facts" are wrong. According to British Mandate records, 76% of the land west of the Jordan River was STATE land, not belogning to any individual or group. The remaining 24% was almost equally divided between Jews and Jewish groups, individual Arab landwoners and Arab absentee landlords living outside of Palestine.