Quite a lot of cyclists try to get to the front for their own safety. I've been struck from behind by an inattentive driver (this was before mobile phones). Some have even been killed. But hey, this is Ashley Neal's channel and cyclists are always at fault. And anyone who challenges him is the wrong kind of cyclist! Absolutely unnecessary overtake by the driver. And it seems into a cycle lane but that entire junction needs new paint.
This comment is absolutely brilliant. You make a point about cyclists getting in front for their own safety and then instantly give an example of you being struck from behind by an inattentive driver. How stupid do you have to be to successfully argue your first sentence with your second. Edit - typo
@@AshleyNeal-JustCycling No Ashley your hatred of cyclists is the issue. I was first in the right turn lane on Old Shoreham Road, Hove. Perfectly legal, no filtering involved. Driver said to me "I wasn't expecting to see a cyclist in the right turn lane". Back wheel completely destroyed, driver paid for a new wheel. Driver took me to casualty with a suspected broken collarbone. Had there been a car in front of me I wouldn't be pointing out what an absolute idiot you are.
If you're the last vehicle in the queue, you have a point, but most of the time people are protected by vehicles from behind. What advice do you give if you arrive first at a red light? By the way, giving cyclists advice on how to keep themselves safe is not hatred but actually, the opposite.
@@AshleyNeal-JustCycling You do realise you're contradicting yourself now? Because that cyclist filtered past a stationary car they were safer than staying where they were. Fail to stop for a car in front, damaged bumper. Fail to stop for cyclist in front, dead cyclist (and it has happened more than once). What is it like to be never wrong? Remember I have told you I have been struck four times by drivers every single time it was the drivers fault. Had there been a car in front of me when I was struck I would have most likely have been killed, such was the force of the impact. This was back in the days before ASLs were even a thing.
You are really so wrapped up in your own opinion it's untrue. Go and have a look at the clip again and tell me whether the blue Peugeot behind the cyclist affected the situation. It renders your point irrelevant. You're always too eager to jump on your keyboard and start typing without putting your brain into gear first. Your toxicity overrides logical thought.
Hey Ash. Maybe consider a video of cycling in jam packed commuter time traffic? This certainly takes a different set of skills (inc filtering in those conditions). Quite a lot of riders face this - would be good to know what to look out for. Attitude to approach in, when to filler, when to let others go, when to hold back. And of course a reminder to make friends, as often encounter the same drivers on commutes.
My most outstanding MGIF story - I pulled out of the junction at work to cycle home just as an oversized load went up the hill. Big big load, escort vehicles, big trailer, and could only manage 10mph up the long hill out of town. That was actually a full on effort for me to hold the 10mph, so I made it a challenge to hold the gap behind the trailer. A few cars were able to overtake the oversized load and then the bend and right turn lanes and oncoming vehicles stopped that, and it was obvious there'd be no more overtaking for a few minutes, until we got over the crest. After a bit the landrover behind me, pulled out and came up alongside, and made it clear he thought he was overtaking me. Not the truck obviously, as you couldn't see hardly any distance. We were still doing 10mph and I was still about 4m off the trailer bumper. I'm afraid it made me laugh so much i couldn't hang onto the all out effort and slipped back, so he got his vital overtake done and was able to sit in the space in front of me for the rest of the slow climb up to where overtaking was possible........ 🤣
Staying behind at the lights is what I used to do but then a motorist coming the other way thought he saw a gap in the traffic and did a right turn, to collect me on his bonnet and give me a ride into a world of concussion. I learned from that lesson and ensure that I am not going to be 'collected' by a motorist coming the other way, rapidly accelerating for a gap in the traffic. At the time I was dressed like a Christmas Tree with the full set of lights so it wasn't as if it was 'didn't see you mate' due to a fault on my behalf. In this instance I would not have worked my way to the front with that trailer. A left hand turn is not the same as going straight on, and the situation is different to the accident I found myself in. There was no need to hurry or be assertive. Getting to your destination is the goal, not having a fisticuffs.
Normally I think Ashley's judgements on these videos are spot on, but for your exact reason I don't think he got this one right. Being "hidden" in amongst traffic is a real risk. When you've ridden with a the trailer you realise that stopping and quick diversions are not as easy if someone pulls across because they thought there was a gap in thr traffic.
1:53 KIA starts indicating left (contrary to what Ashley said at 2:20). The turn lights are a bit far down from the camera perspective and almost more on the right side than the rear, but the camera seems to be on the top of the helmet.
The overtake though poorly timed, they passed at a suitable distance and didn't put the cyclist at any risk. As a cyclist myself I would have stayed behind at the lights. I often cycle with my kids and do what I can to allow motorists to overtake as soon as possible, rather than having irritable drivers behind me getting road rage, even if that means pulling in somewhere. Why would you want an angry motorist behind you aiming a ton or more of metal in your direction?
As a cyclist I wont ride past stationary cars to get into the cycle box unless I have a safety reason to do so such as cars behind me, so why hold them up needlessly? When I drive a car though, cyclists will go out of their way to get infront at the lights, even if I am the only car at the lights. I suspect that the cyclists that do this do not drive and thus have no consideration for motorised traffic.
The second pass was too close though, but for a close pass this was not the worst. The following distance to the trailer could've been better too, considering there could be kids or pets in there. But yeah the combination Ill timed pass plus blocking the cycle lane would've triggered me a little too - I might make a polite gesture or comment - that is clearly someone you'd want in front, so holding back there.
Unless someone turned into that road without looking and the driver had to swerve into the cyclist to avoid a collision. This happens occasionally to me when someone turns left into my road without looking left and an overtaking driver then swerves towards me.
no matter what i do cycle drive or walk on a road i always make situations a none event.something your videos have taught me. that logic would have been perfect for this clip.
I agree. A pointless manoeuvre by the cyclist and he could have avoided the close pass by nipping into one of the gaps along that side road. I would have waited behind the car anyway so none of that would have happened in the first place.
They're a joke in most countries that have shoved them in over the last decade. My town has one that was built about 25 years ago as a test, that leads out of town on what used to be a fairly quiet road. It now has so much grass over it that you can't even see it in some places, and to pass under a bridge, it briefly leaves the side of the road and passes under the other side of a pylon before rejoining the road... This section is underneath bushes and can't even be seen at all now. Hilariously, under my state law, a cyclist riding down the road could technically be fined for not using this cycle lane. There is no exception in the law for the lane being in absolute disrepair.
That cyclist is pulling a trailer, presumably with a child or animal inside. Given that, I was shocked to see him squeeze between the 2 cars at the lights.
@@reachandler3655 Having done this with a child in a trailer the safest place is to be at the head of the traffic and get across the junctions first. That way you don't risk people racing for the lights and chopping you to go left or those oncoming seeing a gap in cars and pulling across you. It may shock you, but I guarantee you, it is far safer than being caught in the middle of cars trying to get through the lights. It looks slightly aggressive but really it's a defensive move.
At 2:37 you can see the reason for the issue is entirely too many cars for the road. the cyclist is navigating between 2 sets of parked cars oncoming cars and a car from behind. The person behind is getting annoyed by the cyclist but the reason there is no space is nothing to do with the cyclist and yet they shove their way through anyway.
Nah, it's due to the drivers being too patient and wanting too much side space when passing. That road is intended as a 2-lane road so you have the *right* to use two driving lanes on it. Fun fact: If you only make it through a gap by hitting things around you with your mirrors, then you and your *car* are still through the gap (your *mirrors* may have been left behind, though.) :P
Driver stopped in cycle lane, also looks like it could actually be a bike box but can't tell because there's a car parked in it. should have licence revoked. also failed to indicate which clearly shows they are incompetent driver. then failed to give enough space during overtake. why the hell are they still on the road.
“They did overtake first when it wasn't necessary...I've done this to show the motorist that a lot of the time it's no point overtaking when you’re coming up to lights like that - cyclists are just going to slip past.” Hmm, I'm sure I remember someone saying these exact words
Even without the trailer staying behind the car would have been smarter. With the trailer I was shocked he actually went to squeeze through. Maybe he has much better estimation of how much space the trailer needs for every maneuver than I have but just the reduced acceleration would be enough to not try to get in front of anyone.
Yes, given the positioning of the Blue Peugeot was minding your back at a decent distance. Staying put in the queue would have been the far better option.
@@DemiGod.. It has been many years since the last time I pulled one behind a trike but I know what you mean. More recently I had a cargo trailer behind my recumbent bike and I also did some trips with a dog trailer behind it that was similar size to the trailer in this video. I never hit anything with the trailer but I would still not feel comfortable squeezing through such gap with it. Especially if it is a not straight long approach to the gap and continuing straight after the gap. It is not just the width of the trailer but also having the feel for how much it cuts corners. In the video the cyclist turns left in front of the car before stopping and even if the trailer was narrower than his handlebars it could still come closer to that car than the handlebars did. And if it is a typical trailer then it is between 80 and 90cm wide so wider than handlebars plus cutting corners. Which is why that "S" maneuver from behind the car into the gap and then back left in front of the car is making me uncomfortable. But like I said if he pulls the trailer very often this aspect might be no problem for him.
@hebijirik the camera makes things out of perspective.....surprising to how narrow of a gap he can actually fit through...the camera makes things closer than what they actually are
@Mr.1.i I know, my helmet camera does the same. I still feel I would have to be very very familiar with that exact bike‐trailer combo before I would go between two cars with it. A tiny miscalculation can cost a lot of money. And paperwork and general unpleasantness. And there is still the fact that at least I personally can outaccelerate a normally accelerating car from zero to 25kph on my main bike when not loaded so I could theoretically be sure I will be some distance from the intersection before the car catches up to me again. But with the weight and resistance of a trailer added I would be slowing the car down from the first second of green light. Which for me is by itself a big reason to not put in extra effort just to be ahead of a car.
Wow, this was not great - I’ve cycled with a kiddy trailer before and it feels slow and vulnerable - I’d be keeping well out of the way and certainly not filtering past any cars 😮
if I'm going slower than the general flow of traffic I don't MBIF if there is an occasion where I can overtake. because anyone I overtake is just going to have to overtake me again, as soon as the pace picks up above my speed. it wouldn't get me where I'm going all that much faster if I did, and it increases risk and aggravation for everybody.
So if the cyclist is able to continually overtake the car that overtook them, does that mean the cyclist is going slower than the general flow of traffic?
@@oliverpolden if the reason the cyclist is able to overtake at every stoplight, is because the traffic spends most of the space between stoplights bottled up behind the cyclist, then yes, the cyclist is not only going slower than the general pace of traffic; they are IMPEDING the flow of traffic. I know in the UK, the highway code says only motorists are forbidden to impede traffic; bu in my state, the traffic laws say ANY road user who impedes traffic is to pull over at the next safe opportunity and allow faster traffic to pass unimpeded.
If the cyclist wasn’t there, the journey time of that car would have been exactly the same. Therefore the cyclist is not impeding traffic. The first overtake was pointless since the lights were red and it was dangerous being just before a junction. Yes perhaps the lights could have changed as the car got there, but that doesn’t excuse it being a dangerous overtake. The second overtake, yes perhaps they could have been impeded if they didn’t do that overtake, we don’t see the rest of the video but I bet soon enough there would have been a decent place to overtake and they would have just caught up to the traffic in front soon enough. Again, their journey time probably would have been exactly the same.
@@oliverpolden You can reverse the roles here, and state that if the car wasn't there, the journey time of the cyclist would have been exactly the same. Hence, there was no reason to overtake the car at the red light.
I cant believe anyone would push through that narrow gap at the lights on a bike... Let alone when pulling a trailer. What happens if you misjudge the move and scratch the car? And then to do that, just to end up stuck in a narrow street with traffic anyway.... It would have saved everyone time to just stay back and not be a dick. Edit: I often take kids to/from school in a trailer, and even when its empty, I wouldn't try something like this move. Its high risk for zero gain.
Keep idiot drivers who overtake into red lights, junctions, roundabouts etc in front of you. You already know they are terrible drivers, let them get far away from you. Just ego in this video
@@Ezekiel_Burton From your comment it would appear you are referring to the driver since you only mention idiot drivers and never once mention cyclists but thank you for clarifying you meant the cyclist.
@@aanubis5874 Yes, I did call the driver an idiot because they are and you should always keep those kind of drivers in front of you, whether you're driving or cycling. The ego is referring to the video, or the POV of the cyclist, just very dumb behaviour when you're so vulnerable
This is the hardest thing for cyclists on the road, trying to control the situation. Holding back is the best thing in the situation after the first overtake and taking primary in the middle of the left hand lane behind the KIA. No point squeezing through especially pulling a trailer. It probably triggered the KIA driver on the left hand turn how close he was to his car hence the beep and subsequent close pass.
I recently got berated by a cab driver for holding back rather than filtering at a red light, on a potholed bit of road and having no idea how much longer the lights would stay red. But fair enough, I was taking up a metre he could have been stopped closer to the vehicle in front of me. Next time if I think fast enough I'll say google Ashley Neal
Motorist in this clip realy NEEDS to do a lot better in those overtake. Even if a cyclist or anyone irritates you, keep thinking about their safety. If I was the cyclist I would indeed, as Ashley mentioned waited behind that car. I have learned a lot from this channel and wish to keep learning. Then again, i have always found road safety important.
I don't think there's anything left to say Ashley, you covered everything that needs to be said already... I can share my own experiences though, that makes me laugh more than it makes me angry... On a certain stretch of road on which I cycle commute home regularly, I often get drivers that Must Get in Front of me on the approach to a set of traffic lights at the end of the road. There's often a queue at the lights, but there's always one that simply has to overtake me, despite the fact that I am traveling at 20mph in a 20 zone. Sometimes I will even move out to beyond primary to try and discourage the overtake. But by hook or by crook, they'll either get in front for mere seconds, or fail to complete the overtake and sound their horn at me for ruining their day.
As a cyclist I believe it is a common courtesy to not overtake cars at lights who have already overtaken me, especially when they have patiently waited for a safe time to overtake me prior to arriving at the lights.
Had the Kia used their turn signal, I agree and would not have gone past them. However, since the Kia driver didn't indicate their turn, one would assume they are going straight through (even if it's a left turn lane, the lack of indicator gives no clue to their intentions - I've seen drivers pull straight through from turning lanes).
I would prefer to have a berk in front of me; not behind. Even a School Teacher - and they used to have 👀 in the back of their Heads - would be putting themselves into Danger in this instance. For context....... If a Pupil misbehaved then it would result in an object - sometimes a piece of chalk - being thrown at whoever is being disruptive. They can't get away with that now but it was amusing to witness 🤣
It's more on the cyclist. The kia passed safely. Maybe because they knew they wouldn't have a safer chance. The cyclist passed just before turning green just to instigate knowing they'd probably be passed again anyways. Takes two to tango but the cyclist pushed back instead of just letting the one who wants to drive faster, to do so.
The frustrating thing about being overtaken on approach to a junction or obstacle, which your not supposed to do, is that the accelerating slightly more kicks up more fumes then breaking slightly harder kicks up more particulates.. So you've nicked my turn to negotiate the junction or obstacle, which I could have often negotiated much quicker than you, and polluted my air without the slightest consideration for my wellbeing. Now if I just accept your nicking of my position and wait behind until things start again, I get another blast of your acceleration fumes. When you need to breath properly without a electric motor, this is pretty frustrating to say the least, then I've had it when I pull up beside to avoid some of that some people start getting arsey. That's generally without a trailer but still, when you do have a trailer your actually transporting something unlike the majority of cars.
Personally when cycling, if I treat myself as having a similar size ‘personal space’ box as to that of a car. I would have held back where I didn’t need to ‘race’ off the line to be sure of being safe with both cars. Doesn’t take much lane drift from either car, esp in their blind spot to have an accident.
Good spot, i was looking for the indicator and thought they were not indicating hence why cyclist likely went in front. That really is poor placement on the Kia.
In general I disagree about safer in the traffic than ahead at lights. A large proportion of cyclist casualties are from left hooks at junctions, where drivers don't see, or don't accommodate cyclists as they pass through the junction. That's why the feeder lanes and advance stop boxes are there, so that cyclists can position ahead in in full visibility of drivers to avoid fatal outcomes. That said, in this instance, pulling ahead seems churlish, with the trailer and in primary position theres not much risk of a left hook - and cutting through to sit in front where there isn't really room is just going to aggravate. I'd be surprised if the driver could hear the cyclists "bip bip" comment, so I doubt their horn was a response to that, more likely just irritation.
The problem with staying behind is having to directly inhale all of the toxic pollutants coming out of the car's exhausts though. I'd rather have a bit f fresh(ish) air while I'm waiting for the light to go green.
@@glenn1534 there's also that ... but less of a prob with modern cars, e.g. electric, or hybrid, or with stop-start technology. Buses are the worst though ...
@@Velodrone There are still plenty of car and vans I want to be ahead of because breathing in their fumes is unbearable. Maybe that will change once all cars are electric. I agree it's awful being stuck breathing in bus fumes, but I try not to overtake buses because of how frequently they stop for passengers, it really does make the whole journey each overtaking the other and that becomes so stressful.
@@glenn1534 haha, well that depends where you are. In Central London, chances are that anything you overtake you will leave far behind and never see again ...
I would not even think of jumping in front then as that cyclist did. All he got is a potentially aggressive motorist behind him. I would not want that at all.
Worth remembering that the Kia was in the cycle lane and should therefore not have been there. Had that been the case, the cyclist would have been able to roll up to the lights. However, I do agree that filtering was a mistake.
I ride with a trailer sometimes, and you do need to be a little more aware that it makes you a little wider and less maneuverable. If I was riding without the trailer, I'd also have been tempted to filter to the front of the cars, as I often find it's best to be out front where everyone can see you. But if towing, I would definitely have held back. Also note that after the turn left, the cyclist correctly waited to let oncoming cars pass through the narrow section. Since he's already stopped, why not also let cars behind pass? It just makes life easier for everyone. It's much more pleasant to have cars in front, rather than behind trying to get past. None of this excuses the original pass by the car in the clip, which was pointless.
Those cycle boxes at lights. I do not usually filter into them, unless A) the traffic is so jammed and slow that I am likely to be going faster by filtering so will not hold others up. Happens a lot in rush hour in busy places. B) there is a place very soon after where they can pass me - so would only hold them up for a short whole.
Me neither. I only use them on the occasions where there's a through route for cyclists and pedestrians after the lights that motorists can't use so you know you're not going to trigger anyone by doing so. Edinburgh drivers are guilty of sitting in the advanced cycle boxes at red lights anyway rendering them unusable in many cases.
@@raithrover1976 I live in Edinburgh and cycle right in front of those cars aswell, happened just yesterday coming down leith street from a bus driver aswell, he didn’t look impressed
In some cases poorly designed or maintained cycling infrastructure can be worse than useless by actually making the situation more dangerous. Prime example is stupidly narrow cycle lanes
There is absolutely no reason to filter there. Yes drivers love to overtake me on my bicycle then hard brake for red lights because they dont look further than their bonnet, but you want an idiot like that in front of you, not behind you. That was just a stupid ego battle
This cyclist has a trailer, similar to one I had for carrying children. The first overtake a dreadful manoeuvre. I wouldn’t have moved ahead at the lights, but the close pass tells you everything you need to know.
I think the first overtake you could put down to poor judgment, just a mistake or over ambition, sneaking through between the cars was silly point making, I cycle with trailer all the time, although there are boxes at the front of the que at lights for cyclists, I tend to pull up at the back rather than trying to get into the box between the cars. mostly there isn't room and the car comes past anyway once you are moving
I always have to preface these comments with "I am a cyclist too" - I understand you are being balanced Ashley, and I do generally agree with your commentary on this one, however I think recognising the hierarchy of safety you should be a bit more damning of the behaviour of the car doing their initial overtake, as it turned out it was safe, but it was very risky given the factors you raised, and it was needless risk. Now with that being said and full blame on the car for that, the cyclist squeezing through that gap with a childs cargo trolley, to sit at the front of the traffic was also very risky, and needless risk. So they were both stupid idiots as you concluded, but the person driving the ton of metal should probably be held to a higher standard.
Things I’ve learnt cycling on the road. 1. Don’t have an ego. 2. Don’t put yourself at risk just to be correct. A couple of tonnes+ of metal will always come off better than you. 3. Realise you will encounter idiot drivers, and there is nothing you can do in the moment to change that. 4. Ride empathetically, e.g. if a vehicle is stuck behind you for a while, see if you can safely let them pass. 5. Get a little bar end mirror, life changing, just get one. 6. Realise the difference between scary and dangerous encounters with vehicles. 7. Running lights even in the day and wearing some fluorescent kit is a good idea. 8. Know where to position yourself to be seen or prevent a close pass. 9. The safest route isn’t always the quickest. 10. Don’t be a d!ckhead and create a problem just to capture it on camera.
Punishment passes by both users, though of course the one on the more vulnerable user will hopefully be acted upon by the police, assuming it was reported.
I hope the child in the go-kart thing will be OK in the future. Dude probably just rides around with it empty so that cars keep their distance. Although it didn't work in this example.
That's a cargo trailer not a kid one. You can get small (single seat) child trailers, but they still have high sides to protect the child. Cargo trailers have lower sides because cargo doesn't try to put it's hands out the windows.
@@Dani-El. Because it is a child (or possibly dog) trailer. It's just that most people don't use them for kids/dogs, they use them for shopping (and are sometimes sold as such) because: 1) They are cheaper, lighter and more compact than dedicated cargo trailers designed to carry more, and more functional for that purpose than a bike packing trailer 2) The cover makes them more aerodynamic and keeps your shopping dry. 3) They are easy to find cheap/used (because kids grow up, and the original owner has no further use of them) whereas dedicated cargo trailers retain their value. 4) Drivers will try to pass a cargo trailer at all costs but are less happy to risk the life of a baby or even a dog than they are a -bloody cyclist- adult human (sad but true)
Who are those cycling risk takers? Do they have a lawyer squeezing endless money out of indemnity insurance of motorists? Do they not need to work? I would not dream cycling in that fashion , except if can afford weeks and months as inpatient somewhere on an orthopaedic or spinal surgery ward , or worse , ITU until I come back to my senses and ( most probably ) reduced motor and cerebral functions after an " incident"...
The issue for me with this is that both parties even think there is an issue. In the grand scheme of things, this is just how we both progress though traffic/built-up areas. If it's safe I pass you when you have to stop, you pass me on the open road, yes sometimes it turns out to be pointless, but you can't always know that when you commit. What usually happens is one of us makes it through a light and the other doesn't, and we never see each other again, but occasionally this back and forth can happen multiple times though a town/city, I don't think anything of it other than finding it mildly amusing. And at the end of the day, I don't give a crap if I'm passed pointlessly, as long as I'm passed safely.
The Kia should have positioned in the middle of the lane at the lights so the MAMIL couldn't get past... And also indicated.... 😶 But remember, cyclist's NEVER ever believe they have done anything wrong and it's just everyone else. Well either crap cycling infrastructure or spend £100m's chopping up the road network to have traffic jams and empty cycle lanes for most of the day like they have in London....
@@Markie-ds3mt Yeah and motorists always throw their hands up and confess when they are at fault, and they never throw thier toys out of the pram and start babbling on about road tax and insurance like it somhow justifies placing another person in danger.
I don't understand why riders insist on passing vehicles which are faster than they are, only to have those vehicles attempt to pass them again. Just let them go.
I do have to say, at 1:54 you can see the Kia's left signal, it's right at the bottom on these models, which is a pretty crap place for an indicator. But it seems to have been switched off when the cyclist is in front.
I did a tip run with my cargo trailer the other day, wouldn't even begin to think about filtering through traffic that was stationary. Yes the trailer is narrower than the handle bars but what happens if you pass a car that doesn't see the trailer? Had a rear light on the trailer (offside) and one of two on the bike turned on for those behind me to see. Funny thing was a car pulling a trailer pulled out of a junction with a well loaded trailer just in front of me from the right (all good, road clear etc.), and thinking he might be heading the same way, he took a different route. He travelled 4km to get to the tip. Me with a loaded trailer (bit more than the 75kg allowed) 250m less still got there before he did - and that included traffic lights and the bump up a flyover! Got talking to him while we emptied our respective loads and he thought I must have had pedalled really fast to get there before him.
@@gavjlewis Being going there for 20+ years at various times when household appliances decide to give up. Not as many trips now but certainly a lot before we got wheelie bins and regular recycling collection and having to take bottles, glass, tins etc there.
My council would be fine with taking garbage to the tip on a bike... But my bike wouldn't like the random screws, nails, metal strips, etc that litter the roads and dumping areas. Besides... If I can fit it into the bike trailer, I can fit it into the bin at home 😂
The increase in length as well of the bike with the trailer on the rear potentially could have caught a car and scratched it. Potentially and all be it accidentally but would the riders from the ‘anti car or internal combustion’ group of cyclists stop and exchange details? I wouldn’t think so thus meaning the motorist foots the bill for damage caused. While it may be a small group, to the motorist it’s a whole lot bigger
The general rule, at least that I follow, is that if there is traffic ahead, overtaking a cyclist is probably pointless. Sooner or later the traffic ahead will probably come to a stop and the cyclist will pass them.
You failed to mention the child's trailer. It doesn't look as though there is a child in it, but the driver can't see that, so their first over take is doubly dangerous.
Neither road user gained or lost any time here, but risk was increased quite a bit. A perfect example of just how pointless it is. Unfortunately, we see this all too often, people increasing risk for no gain whatsoever.
In this day and age and the dangerous mindset of most drivers i would never dream of putting my son in such a contraption..Drivers today simply cannot be trusted.
I generally prefer cars get ahead of me and stay ahead of me, which is why I wonder about ASL boxes. They make sense when cyclists are able to keep up with motor traffic, but otherwise they seem to just encourage a game of leap frog. We don't have them here, but I stopped filtering up the side at most intersections and don't regret the decision.
They are only good in urban settings like my city centre where all cyclists are doing the 20mph speed limit anyway or the traffic is so bad that cyclists are always in front regardless. Otherwise, they are actually dangerous imo. Stay in your position, stop in the middle of the lane so nobody can try to come alongside you and bully you and wait. Only time I filter outside of my city centre is the odd traffic jam or very crappy lights that build up 20+ cars in a queue
Those cycle boxes at lights. I do not usually filter into them, unless A) the traffic is so jammed and slow that I am likely to be going faster by filtering so will not hold others up. Happens a lot in rush hour in busy places. B) there is a place very soon after where they can pass me - so would only hold them up for a short whole.
First thing I noticed was a look left as the car emerged and seeing a car travelling along the road but not a second look before fully emerging after the car. Was that to keep the car close to get back in front or did the driver signal it was OK but was not picked up on camera? While there is nothing wrong with filtering to the front at traffic lights, in all honesty I would stay where the cyclist was if it was me especially if I was turning left. It was a poor pass by the driver (twice) but how often do we see someone trying to get back in front of a road user that has done a poor pass? If they are that bad…keep them in front. Why put yourself back into a position where a poor road user will try to get back in front? One thing I have noticed that is wrong, and it appears to be getting worse recently, is drivers are more easily aggravated by a feeling of being “held up” by cyclists and the drivers then take their frustration out on others as well as cyclists. We all need to share the roads and if it means holding back then we hold back…cyclist, driver or rider. Remember it is nice to be nice and respect each other. Leave the emotions and egos away from the road 👍
On my motorcycle I might filter to the front but find it pointless on my cycle. Having the cars that have just overtaken you do it all over again just adds another risk. Most cyclists will go to the front but little is gained as if the cars were in front they would quickly accelerate away leaving the cyclist a clear path.
When I drive my car and see some leftover remnants of paint of some random cycle lane or other suggestion of cyling provisions on road, ( you need the eyes of an archeologist in the UK 😅) , I leave enoygh spa e on my nearside to allow them to pull past in front to green box. If in my truck, and it is not much space ( junction, hazards coming up left and right, 2 lane single carriage way and drivers with poor control/ positioning near me) , I pull truck fully close to nearside kerb( trucks 2,5 m wide mostly) so that cyclist hopefully understands it would not be intelligent to pull past there.😅
Both as bad as each other. Kia driver could have held back and gained nothing by overtaking. Same for cyclist, he overtook, gained nothing, and put himself at risk. No need for any of it.
Car has overtaken bike, but then bike chooses to overtake car. If that was in a shop, or waiting for a bus, it would be pushing in, and unacceptable. Many drivers will get triggered by this 'rudeness', hence the resultant close pass. Having kept a safe distance, followed patiently, at last taken a safe overtake, having to do it all again past the same cyclist will annoy most drivers. No need for it, just queue patiently. Filtering to the front, ahead of a car that might apparently be going straight ahead, to turn left in front of it seems an unnecessary risk. The emerge just before thd lights looked a little dodgy too, in front of the approaching blue car.
I've always thought that there's a decent chance that the car behind the one behind me may not know i'm there as a cyclist but if a car goes past then the one ahead of me and the one behind know I'm there which is handy in towns. Btw, the positioning of the blue Peugeot behind at the lights is fucking exquisite. anyone coming from the junction the cyclist cam in can see the cyclist and anyone coming past the blue Peugeot in the right can see the cyclist.
As an 8 year old i cycled in more intelligent positions, mostly AWAY FROM MOTORISED TRAFFIC. But again, it was Germany 30 years ago with better infrastructure than Brexit Britain .
QUESTION as a driver how much **road length** distance is likely to be required to overtake a cyclist and not close pass, or cut out or in too close? Comments for 20mph and 30mph welcome.
Strange question. Depends upon the speed of the cyclist, the speed and length of the overtaking vehicle and road conditions. I also suggest that to overtake and then shortly after have to stop and block the cyclist is both pointless and inconsiderate.
I'll try and answer my own question and see where it gets us -- please feel free to disagree -- On the assumption we are driving at 30mph and it perhaps takes four seconds to safely pass the cyclist at the required 1.5 metres..... we need (30mph = 13m/s) 13 metres times by 4 seconds, or 52 metres. That is 52 metres of clear roadspace on both sides of the road. If you add another car in behind then that is another 4 seconds, plus an extra second for the gap between the two cars - that gives us 117 metres of clear road (on both sides). Add a third car = 182 metres. 4th car = 247 metres. That of course assumes that every car can pass by simply moving out and passing in one smooth wave like motion. If there are stutters and hesitations then there is more distance added. Is it any wonder then that cars 8, 9 and 10 struggle to not close pass! Discuss!
You're overcomplicating it it's simple can i clear in half the distance u can see and use the opposite side of road or give a decent space of 1.5m then that's it. No need for a bunch quantum physics
Cyclist I think was the most triggered. Kia was clumsy, but it was signalling left. The indicator light is on the bottom bumper where you expect the fog lights to be, and it was flashing left. Poor design by Kia.
There's a type of cyclist that will ride around with a baby in a trailer like that, get into risky situations, put their child in danger... and justify their actions were fine, because THEY did nothing wrong. It's like going into a bear cave with your baby, and the bear attacking you... and saying, "I didn't do anything wrong, the bear did."
@@blake-gl4wn Yep- ultimate safety accessory, a Raleigh child trailer, marked up with extra warning/child on board signs and all that's in it is my shop from the local town 8 miles away...so much fun on an E bike too in turbo on days when there will be a significant headwind on the laden return lol.... folk don't mind trying to kill you but the thought of a child seems to make them drive a bit more carefully....
Why do you people make such dumb comparisons? There is absolutely no comparison, similarity or connection to a car driven by a person that supposedly has a licence and a bear.
@@hairyairey Hairy, your logic is like saying, "The law says you should not rob and steal people." then walking down a shady neighborhood at night and assuming you're not putting yourself at risk because there's a heirarchy, or laws to protect you. Good luck with that logic
To be fair I don’t give a fuck about the poor cycling, more the fact that someone who is towing a child is close passed by a vehicle. That’s a fucking disgrace from the vehicle.
@@tin2001 why do you keep saying that? Cargo trailers don't need windows. This is a child or dog trailer, a lot of people use them for cargo, but it IS NOT a dedicated cargo trailer and the car driver should assume there is a child in there.
I think it's very selfish for a cyclist to make their way to the front just to slow down all the traffic behind them. Also, a lot of cyclist get lost in the blindspots of veichles during the journey from being behind to being in front. If they just stayed in place they'd be much safer.
Cyclist didn't cover themselves in glory, but assuming there was a child in the tow buggy the driver should be assumed at their entitlement 😢 Welcome to today Britain 😢
The rules need to be changed so that more vulnerable users are obliged to take more pre-emptive measures to ensure their safety. At this point people are willingly putting themselves in harms way to prove a point and it's completely silly.
To the letter of the law, the second pass was too close. But it was done safely and as i cyclist this wouldnt cause me any offence. And its not like its a big vehical towing, speed is high for wind issues or the driver was pushing the cyclist into the curb. And yes the cyclist was better behindand should have stayed there, he was towing a trailer and was peddling like very unfit person. If you can keep up - take and hold primary.
I wouldn't have went past at the lights especially if going left. To me its just unnecessary overtake especially if a child is in the trailer potentially. Different filtering past 10 cars but a single vehicle it ist worth it
He was so aggressive and the number one rule is you must never upset a car driver. How was the cyclist aggressive, why sit behind a fuming engine when there is a cycle spot ahead. Car drivers need to get a life
Given the cycle trailer is for a child, then squeezing between two vehicles was highly questionable. Was the cyclists giving a recognised hand signal when he let go of the handlebar? Cyclists rarely give any indication of their intentions from my observations.
My take is if cyclists want to be treated like a car (i.e. in the amount,of space they are given) they should behave as though they are in a car and not filter past in a dangerous manner.
Can you explain the 'dangerous' element of the cyclist's filtering? Do you mean, at very worst, the car might have been scratched? Can't see a film doing well with that as the thriller component.
@@chrisl1797 Consider the situation where cyclists didn't filter. If you were driving behind one, you'd be furious because you'd have to drive at their pace for however long the journey was if the roads were narrow/busy. Filtering improves the flow of traffic.
@@glenn1534 That doesn't make sense and isn't what I am on about. If the cyclist is passable, then we should and can go past when it is safe. It seems to me as many (if not all) cyclists get furious when they filter through at lights/junctions only to be inevitably passed again 10 seconds later.
I think the only reason the cyclist done this is because he has a camera. There is a lot of drivers and cyclists just doing these sorts of things for content.
The cyclist and driver triggered each other. But the cyclist and his precious (child/dog) cargo are far far more vulnerable. Cyclist should have been much more careful. Impatient close pass by driver too.
Quite a lot of cyclists try to get to the front for their own safety. I've been struck from behind by an inattentive driver (this was before mobile phones). Some have even been killed.
But hey, this is Ashley Neal's channel and cyclists are always at fault. And anyone who challenges him is the wrong kind of cyclist!
Absolutely unnecessary overtake by the driver. And it seems into a cycle lane but that entire junction needs new paint.
This comment is absolutely brilliant. You make a point about cyclists getting in front for their own safety and then instantly give an example of you being struck from behind by an inattentive driver.
How stupid do you have to be to successfully argue your first sentence with your second. Edit - typo
@@AshleyNeal-JustCycling No Ashley your hatred of cyclists is the issue. I was first in the right turn lane on Old Shoreham Road, Hove. Perfectly legal, no filtering involved. Driver said to me "I wasn't expecting to see a cyclist in the right turn lane". Back wheel completely destroyed, driver paid for a new wheel.
Driver took me to casualty with a suspected broken collarbone. Had there been a car in front of me I wouldn't be pointing out what an absolute idiot you are.
If you're the last vehicle in the queue, you have a point, but most of the time people are protected by vehicles from behind. What advice do you give if you arrive first at a red light? By the way, giving cyclists advice on how to keep themselves safe is not hatred but actually, the opposite.
@@AshleyNeal-JustCycling You do realise you're contradicting yourself now? Because that cyclist filtered past a stationary car they were safer than staying where they were. Fail to stop for a car in front, damaged bumper. Fail to stop for cyclist in front, dead cyclist (and it has happened more than once).
What is it like to be never wrong? Remember I have told you I have been struck four times by drivers every single time it was the drivers fault. Had there been a car in front of me when I was struck I would have most likely have been killed, such was the force of the impact. This was back in the days before ASLs were even a thing.
You are really so wrapped up in your own opinion it's untrue. Go and have a look at the clip again and tell me whether the blue Peugeot behind the cyclist affected the situation. It renders your point irrelevant. You're always too eager to jump on your keyboard and start typing without putting your brain into gear first. Your toxicity overrides logical thought.
Agreed for the most part, but describing a clear HC violation as "deciding to come past at a little bit of a silly time" is pretty ridiculous
In my opinion unless one feels unsafe in a queue, filtering past one or two cars is a little pointless.
Hey Ash. Maybe consider a video of cycling in jam packed commuter time traffic? This certainly takes a different set of skills (inc filtering in those conditions). Quite a lot of riders face this - would be good to know what to look out for. Attitude to approach in, when to filler, when to let others go, when to hold back. And of course a reminder to make friends, as often encounter the same drivers on commutes.
Ashley admits he has very little experience of cycle commuting, would make a poor video imo.
@@shm5547 Can Ashley even ride a bicycle? I do wonder! 😂
@@hairyairey I've only seen evidence of e-biking so far! 😉
I just wouldn't filter to the front there if i had a silly trailer on the back. Probably wouldn't even do it at all for one car.
My most outstanding MGIF story - I pulled out of the junction at work to cycle home just as an oversized load went up the hill.
Big big load, escort vehicles, big trailer, and could only manage 10mph up the long hill out of town.
That was actually a full on effort for me to hold the 10mph, so I made it a challenge to hold the gap behind the trailer.
A few cars were able to overtake the oversized load and then the bend and right turn lanes and oncoming vehicles stopped that, and it was obvious there'd be no more overtaking for a few minutes, until we got over the crest.
After a bit the landrover behind me, pulled out and came up alongside, and made it clear he thought he was overtaking me. Not the truck obviously, as you couldn't see hardly any distance. We were still doing 10mph and I was still about 4m off the trailer bumper.
I'm afraid it made me laugh so much i couldn't hang onto the all out effort and slipped back, so he got his vital overtake done and was able to sit in the space in front of me for the rest of the slow climb up to where overtaking was possible........ 🤣
@@ColinSmith2001 I have raced fully laden trucks uphill in Hove and won!
Staying behind at the lights is what I used to do but then a motorist coming the other way thought he saw a gap in the traffic and did a right turn, to collect me on his bonnet and give me a ride into a world of concussion. I learned from that lesson and ensure that I am not going to be 'collected' by a motorist coming the other way, rapidly accelerating for a gap in the traffic. At the time I was dressed like a Christmas Tree with the full set of lights so it wasn't as if it was 'didn't see you mate' due to a fault on my behalf.
In this instance I would not have worked my way to the front with that trailer. A left hand turn is not the same as going straight on, and the situation is different to the accident I found myself in. There was no need to hurry or be assertive. Getting to your destination is the goal, not having a fisticuffs.
Normally I think Ashley's judgements on these videos are spot on, but for your exact reason I don't think he got this one right. Being "hidden" in amongst traffic is a real risk. When you've ridden with a the trailer you realise that stopping and quick diversions are not as easy if someone pulls across because they thought there was a gap in thr traffic.
Don't tell Ashley that cyclists are more vulnerable he absolutely doesn't give a toss!
@@chrisspringett7860I don't think you have been watching that attentively, Ashley gets a lot of things wrong!
Odd that the cyclist felt the need to get infont whilst pulling a trailer. When I ride the trike or pull a trailer, makes me reluctant to filter.
1:53 KIA starts indicating left (contrary to what Ashley said at 2:20). The turn lights are a bit far down from the camera perspective and almost more on the right side than the rear, but the camera seems to be on the top of the helmet.
True
The indicators on the bumper are a stupid place to have them. It only leads to people not seeing them, just like Ashley.
@@dan8ch523Kia and Hyundai are worst offenders for this
The overtake though poorly timed, they passed at a suitable distance and didn't put the cyclist at any risk. As a cyclist myself I would have stayed behind at the lights. I often cycle with my kids and do what I can to allow motorists to overtake as soon as possible, rather than having irritable drivers behind me getting road rage, even if that means pulling in somewhere. Why would you want an angry motorist behind you aiming a ton or more of metal in your direction?
As a cyclist I wont ride past stationary cars to get into the cycle box unless I have a safety reason to do so such as cars behind me, so why hold them up needlessly? When I drive a car though, cyclists will go out of their way to get infront at the lights, even if I am the only car at the lights. I suspect that the cyclists that do this do not drive and thus have no consideration for motorised traffic.
The second pass was too close though, but for a close pass this was not the worst. The following distance to the trailer could've been better too, considering there could be kids or pets in there. But yeah the combination Ill timed pass plus blocking the cycle lane would've triggered me a little too - I might make a polite gesture or comment - that is clearly someone you'd want in front, so holding back there.
@@RenAigu This is the point that @DemiGod.. raised. If the cyclist didn't pointlessly pass the car, the car would not pass him the 2nd time.
Unless someone turned into that road without looking and the driver had to swerve into the cyclist to avoid a collision. This happens occasionally to me when someone turns left into my road without looking left and an overtaking driver then swerves towards me.
no matter what i do cycle drive or walk on a road i always make situations a none event.something your videos have taught me. that logic would have been perfect for this clip.
I agree. A pointless manoeuvre by the cyclist and he could have avoided the close pass by nipping into one of the gaps along that side road. I would have waited behind the car anyway so none of that would have happened in the first place.
At that point very little point, there was clearly traffic ahead anyway.
Cycle lanes in this country are a joke
They're a joke in most countries that have shoved them in over the last decade.
My town has one that was built about 25 years ago as a test, that leads out of town on what used to be a fairly quiet road. It now has so much grass over it that you can't even see it in some places, and to pass under a bridge, it briefly leaves the side of the road and passes under the other side of a pylon before rejoining the road... This section is underneath bushes and can't even be seen at all now.
Hilariously, under my state law, a cyclist riding down the road could technically be fined for not using this cycle lane. There is no exception in the law for the lane being in absolute disrepair.
So, does the law prevent motorists entering the cycle lane?
In UK you often see SLOW painted but verges are so appallingly maintained, all you see is LOW.
@@tin2001 We need to copy the Netherlands.
That cyclist is pulling a trailer, presumably with a child or animal inside. Given that, I was shocked to see him squeeze between the 2 cars at the lights.
It's a cargo trailer so not a child. Could be a small dog or cat I guess, but most likely shopping.
@@reachandler3655 Having done this with a child in a trailer the safest place is to be at the head of the traffic and get across the junctions first. That way you don't risk people racing for the lights and chopping you to go left or those oncoming seeing a gap in cars and pulling across you. It may shock you, but I guarantee you, it is far safer than being caught in the middle of cars trying to get through the lights. It looks slightly aggressive but really it's a defensive move.
At 2:37 you can see the reason for the issue is entirely too many cars for the road. the cyclist is navigating between 2 sets of parked cars oncoming cars and a car from behind. The person behind is getting annoyed by the cyclist but the reason there is no space is nothing to do with the cyclist and yet they shove their way through anyway.
Nah, it's due to the drivers being too patient and wanting too much side space when passing. That road is intended as a 2-lane road so you have the *right* to use two driving lanes on it. Fun fact: If you only make it through a gap by hitting things around you with your mirrors, then you and your *car* are still through the gap (your *mirrors* may have been left behind, though.)
:P
Driver stopped in cycle lane, also looks like it could actually be a bike box but can't tell because there's a car parked in it. should have licence revoked. also failed to indicate which clearly shows they are incompetent driver. then failed to give enough space during overtake. why the hell are they still on the road.
“They did overtake first when it wasn't necessary...I've done this to show the motorist that a lot of the time it's no point overtaking when you’re coming up to lights like that - cyclists are just going to slip past.”
Hmm, I'm sure I remember someone saying these exact words
Even without the trailer staying behind the car would have been smarter. With the trailer I was shocked he actually went to squeeze through. Maybe he has much better estimation of how much space the trailer needs for every maneuver than I have but just the reduced acceleration would be enough to not try to get in front of anyone.
Yes, given the positioning of the Blue Peugeot was minding your back at a decent distance. Staying put in the queue would have been the far better option.
I pull a trailer behind a recumbent trike, in my case easy to judge as narrower than my mirrors which are 80cm apart.
@@DemiGod.. It has been many years since the last time I pulled one behind a trike but I know what you mean. More recently I had a cargo trailer behind my recumbent bike and I also did some trips with a dog trailer behind it that was similar size to the trailer in this video. I never hit anything with the trailer but I would still not feel comfortable squeezing through such gap with it. Especially if it is a not straight long approach to the gap and continuing straight after the gap. It is not just the width of the trailer but also having the feel for how much it cuts corners. In the video the cyclist turns left in front of the car before stopping and even if the trailer was narrower than his handlebars it could still come closer to that car than the handlebars did. And if it is a typical trailer then it is between 80 and 90cm wide so wider than handlebars plus cutting corners. Which is why that "S" maneuver from behind the car into the gap and then back left in front of the car is making me uncomfortable. But like I said if he pulls the trailer very often this aspect might be no problem for him.
@hebijirik the camera makes things out of perspective.....surprising to how narrow of a gap he can actually fit through...the camera makes things closer than what they actually are
@Mr.1.i I know, my helmet camera does the same. I still feel I would have to be very very familiar with that exact bike‐trailer combo before I would go between two cars with it. A tiny miscalculation can cost a lot of money. And paperwork and general unpleasantness.
And there is still the fact that at least I personally can outaccelerate a normally accelerating car from zero to 25kph on my main bike when not loaded so I could theoretically be sure I will be some distance from the intersection before the car catches up to me again. But with the weight and resistance of a trailer added I would be slowing the car down from the first second of green light. Which for me is by itself a big reason to not put in extra effort just to be ahead of a car.
2:15 tries to push in front, or tries to use the cycling infrastructure?
Yea...it's kind of there for a reason as cyclists are safer in front where they are visible.
Wow, this was not great - I’ve cycled with a kiddy trailer before and it feels slow and vulnerable - I’d be keeping well out of the way and certainly not filtering past any cars 😮
if I'm going slower than the general flow of traffic I don't MBIF if there is an occasion where I can overtake. because anyone I overtake is just going to have to overtake me again, as soon as the pace picks up above my speed. it wouldn't get me where I'm going all that much faster if I did, and it increases risk and aggravation for everybody.
So if the cyclist is able to continually overtake the car that overtook them, does that mean the cyclist is going slower than the general flow of traffic?
@@oliverpolden if the reason the cyclist is able to overtake at every stoplight, is because the traffic spends most of the space between stoplights bottled up behind the cyclist, then yes, the cyclist is not only going slower than the general pace of traffic; they are IMPEDING the flow of traffic. I know in the UK, the highway code says only motorists are forbidden to impede traffic; bu in my state, the traffic laws say ANY road user who impedes traffic is to pull over at the next safe opportunity and allow faster traffic to pass unimpeded.
If the cyclist wasn’t there, the journey time of that car would have been exactly the same. Therefore the cyclist is not impeding traffic. The first overtake was pointless since the lights were red and it was dangerous being just before a junction. Yes perhaps the lights could have changed as the car got there, but that doesn’t excuse it being a dangerous overtake. The second overtake, yes perhaps they could have been impeded if they didn’t do that overtake, we don’t see the rest of the video but I bet soon enough there would have been a decent place to overtake and they would have just caught up to the traffic in front soon enough. Again, their journey time probably would have been exactly the same.
@@oliverpolden You can reverse the roles here, and state that if the car wasn't there, the journey time of the cyclist would have been exactly the same. Hence, there was no reason to overtake the car at the red light.
I cant believe anyone would push through that narrow gap at the lights on a bike... Let alone when pulling a trailer. What happens if you misjudge the move and scratch the car?
And then to do that, just to end up stuck in a narrow street with traffic anyway.... It would have saved everyone time to just stay back and not be a dick.
Edit: I often take kids to/from school in a trailer, and even when its empty, I wouldn't try something like this move. Its high risk for zero gain.
"What happens if you misjudge the move and scratch the car?"
The cyclist probably wouldn't have cared and continued on his merry way.
"We've all seen 'must get in front' battles like this, and the KIA is ... not to get involved in the first place." :P
Better to not make an issue, it's a total waste of energy on jerks like this...
Keep idiot drivers who overtake into red lights, junctions, roundabouts etc in front of you. You already know they are terrible drivers, let them get far away from you. Just ego in this video
@@Ezekiel_Burton I think both had ego issues and both overtook each other at red lights but no mention of the cyclist being an idiot? Funny that! 🤣😂🤣
@@aanubis5874 When I said ego, I was referring to the cyclist....he didn't keep his head on, and now looks like an idiot
@@Ezekiel_Burton From your comment it would appear you are referring to the driver since you only mention idiot drivers and never once mention cyclists but thank you for clarifying you meant the cyclist.
@@aanubis5874 Yes, I did call the driver an idiot because they are and you should always keep those kind of drivers in front of you, whether you're driving or cycling. The ego is referring to the video, or the POV of the cyclist, just very dumb behaviour when you're so vulnerable
This is the hardest thing for cyclists on the road, trying to control the situation. Holding back is the best thing in the situation after the first overtake and taking primary in the middle of the left hand lane behind the KIA. No point squeezing through especially pulling a trailer. It probably triggered the KIA driver on the left hand turn how close he was to his car hence the beep and subsequent close pass.
I recently got berated by a cab driver for holding back rather than filtering at a red light, on a potholed bit of road and having no idea how much longer the lights would stay red. But fair enough, I was taking up a metre he could have been stopped closer to the vehicle in front of me. Next time if I think fast enough I'll say google Ashley Neal
Motorist in this clip realy NEEDS to do a lot better in those overtake.
Even if a cyclist or anyone irritates you, keep thinking about their safety.
If I was the cyclist I would indeed, as Ashley mentioned waited behind that car.
I have learned a lot from this channel and wish to keep learning.
Then again, i have always found road safety important.
Yeah Ashley always talks about keeping calm in the face of annoyance on the roads yet seems to turn a blind eye when the abuse is aimed at cyclists.
I don't think there's anything left to say Ashley, you covered everything that needs to be said already...
I can share my own experiences though, that makes me laugh more than it makes me angry...
On a certain stretch of road on which I cycle commute home regularly, I often get drivers that Must Get in Front of me on the approach to a set of traffic lights at the end of the road. There's often a queue at the lights, but there's always one that simply has to overtake me, despite the fact that I am traveling at 20mph in a 20 zone. Sometimes I will even move out to beyond primary to try and discourage the overtake. But by hook or by crook, they'll either get in front for mere seconds, or fail to complete the overtake and sound their horn at me for ruining their day.
As a cyclist I believe it is a common courtesy to not overtake cars at lights who have already overtaken me, especially when they have patiently waited for a safe time to overtake me prior to arriving at the lights.
Indeed.
Had the Kia used their turn signal, I agree and would not have gone past them. However, since the Kia driver didn't indicate their turn, one would assume they are going straight through (even if it's a left turn lane, the lack of indicator gives no clue to their intentions - I've seen drivers pull straight through from turning lanes).
I would prefer to have a berk in front of me; not behind.
Even a School Teacher - and they used to have 👀 in the back of their Heads - would be putting themselves into Danger in this instance.
For context.......
If a Pupil misbehaved then it would result in an object - sometimes a piece of chalk - being thrown at whoever is being disruptive. They can't get away with that now but it was amusing to witness 🤣
Sheer impatience by the Kia. Poor, poor driver.
It's more on the cyclist. The kia passed safely. Maybe because they knew they wouldn't have a safer chance. The cyclist passed just before turning green just to instigate knowing they'd probably be passed again anyways. Takes two to tango but the cyclist pushed back instead of just letting the one who wants to drive faster, to do so.
When I'm cycling and come up to red lights like this I never try to overtake cars in front if it's just a few. Bit different if it's a long queue.
The frustrating thing about being overtaken on approach to a junction or obstacle, which your not supposed to do, is that the accelerating slightly more kicks up more fumes then breaking slightly harder kicks up more particulates..
So you've nicked my turn to negotiate the junction or obstacle, which I could have often negotiated much quicker than you, and polluted my air without the slightest consideration for my wellbeing.
Now if I just accept your nicking of my position and wait behind until things start again, I get another blast of your acceleration fumes. When you need to breath properly without a electric motor, this is pretty frustrating to say the least, then I've had it when I pull up beside to avoid some of that some people start getting arsey.
That's generally without a trailer but still, when you do have a trailer your actually transporting something unlike the majority of cars.
Personally when cycling, if I treat myself as having a similar size ‘personal space’ box as to that of a car. I would have held back where I didn’t need to ‘race’ off the line to be sure of being safe with both cars. Doesn’t take much lane drift from either car, esp in their blind spot to have an accident.
If you look at the left side of the rear bumper, the Kia was actually indicating left at the lights, it's a stupid placement of the indicator lamps.
Good spot, i was looking for the indicator and thought they were not indicating hence why cyclist likely went in front. That really is poor placement on the Kia.
Good and fair assessment I think.
In general I disagree about safer in the traffic than ahead at lights.
A large proportion of cyclist casualties are from left hooks at junctions, where drivers don't see, or don't accommodate cyclists as they pass through the junction.
That's why the feeder lanes and advance stop boxes are there, so that cyclists can position ahead in in full visibility of drivers to avoid fatal outcomes.
That said, in this instance, pulling ahead seems churlish, with the trailer and in primary position theres not much risk of a left hook - and cutting through to sit in front where there isn't really room is just going to aggravate.
I'd be surprised if the driver could hear the cyclists "bip bip" comment, so I doubt their horn was a response to that, more likely just irritation.
The problem with staying behind is having to directly inhale all of the toxic pollutants coming out of the car's exhausts though. I'd rather have a bit f fresh(ish) air while I'm waiting for the light to go green.
@@glenn1534 there's also that ... but less of a prob with modern cars, e.g. electric, or hybrid, or with stop-start technology. Buses are the worst though ...
@@Velodrone There are still plenty of car and vans I want to be ahead of because breathing in their fumes is unbearable. Maybe that will change once all cars are electric.
I agree it's awful being stuck breathing in bus fumes, but I try not to overtake buses because of how frequently they stop for passengers, it really does make the whole journey each overtaking the other and that becomes so stressful.
@@glenn1534 haha, well that depends where you are. In Central London, chances are that anything you overtake you will leave far behind and never see again ...
I would not even think of jumping in front then as that cyclist did. All he got is a potentially aggressive motorist behind him. I would not want that at all.
Worth remembering that the Kia was in the cycle lane and should therefore not have been there. Had that been the case, the cyclist would have been able to roll up to the lights. However, I do agree that filtering was a mistake.
I ride with a trailer sometimes, and you do need to be a little more aware that it makes you a little wider and less maneuverable. If I was riding without the trailer, I'd also have been tempted to filter to the front of the cars, as I often find it's best to be out front where everyone can see you. But if towing, I would definitely have held back.
Also note that after the turn left, the cyclist correctly waited to let oncoming cars pass through the narrow section. Since he's already stopped, why not also let cars behind pass? It just makes life easier for everyone. It's much more pleasant to have cars in front, rather than behind trying to get past.
None of this excuses the original pass by the car in the clip, which was pointless.
Those cycle boxes at lights. I do not usually filter into them, unless A) the traffic is so jammed and slow that I am likely to be going faster by filtering so will not hold others up. Happens a lot in rush hour in busy places. B) there is a place very soon after where they can pass me - so would only hold them up for a short whole.
I always filter to the front at lights, unless they are about to change, safer for me to be upfront
Me neither. I only use them on the occasions where there's a through route for cyclists and pedestrians after the lights that motorists can't use so you know you're not going to trigger anyone by doing so. Edinburgh drivers are guilty of sitting in the advanced cycle boxes at red lights anyway rendering them unusable in many cases.
@@raithrover1976 I live in Edinburgh and cycle right in front of those cars aswell, happened just yesterday coming down leith street from a bus driver aswell, he didn’t look impressed
In some cases poorly designed or maintained cycling infrastructure can be worse than useless by actually making the situation more dangerous. Prime example is stupidly narrow cycle lanes
There is absolutely no reason to filter there. Yes drivers love to overtake me on my bicycle then hard brake for red lights because they dont look further than their bonnet, but you want an idiot like that in front of you, not behind you. That was just a stupid ego battle
This cyclist has a trailer, similar to one I had for carrying children. The first overtake a dreadful manoeuvre. I wouldn’t have moved ahead at the lights, but the close pass tells you everything you need to know.
Why did the cyclist do that, I’m a cyclist and that’s daft with a kid getting pulled too
I think the first overtake you could put down to poor judgment, just a mistake or over ambition, sneaking through between the cars was silly point making, I cycle with trailer all the time, although there are boxes at the front of the que at lights for cyclists, I tend to pull up at the back rather than trying to get into the box between the cars. mostly there isn't room and the car comes past anyway once you are moving
I know this is supposed to be a serious video, but yo that cyclist's camera angle is too much cyclist for me to handle 😂
I always have to preface these comments with "I am a cyclist too" - I understand you are being balanced Ashley, and I do generally agree with your commentary on this one, however I think recognising the hierarchy of safety you should be a bit more damning of the behaviour of the car doing their initial overtake, as it turned out it was safe, but it was very risky given the factors you raised, and it was needless risk. Now with that being said and full blame on the car for that, the cyclist squeezing through that gap with a childs cargo trolley, to sit at the front of the traffic was also very risky, and needless risk. So they were both stupid idiots as you concluded, but the person driving the ton of metal should probably be held to a higher standard.
Things I’ve learnt cycling on the road.
1. Don’t have an ego.
2. Don’t put yourself at risk just to be correct. A couple of tonnes+ of metal will always come off better than you.
3. Realise you will encounter idiot drivers, and there is nothing you can do in the moment to change that.
4. Ride empathetically, e.g. if a vehicle is stuck behind you for a while, see if you can safely let them pass.
5. Get a little bar end mirror, life changing, just get one.
6. Realise the difference between scary and dangerous encounters with vehicles.
7. Running lights even in the day and wearing some fluorescent kit is a good idea.
8. Know where to position yourself to be seen or prevent a close pass.
9. The safest route isn’t always the quickest.
10. Don’t be a d!ckhead and create a problem just to capture it on camera.
Decent advice for any vehicles.
Punishment passes by both users, though of course the one on the more vulnerable user will hopefully be acted upon by the police, assuming it was reported.
*Un-bloody-believable!!!*
I hope the child in the go-kart thing will be OK in the future.
Dude probably just rides around with it empty so that cars keep their distance. Although it didn't work in this example.
I see all these comments but riding in lycra like this feels unlikely he is actually riding with a child to me
That's a cargo trailer not a kid one. You can get small (single seat) child trailers, but they still have high sides to protect the child. Cargo trailers have lower sides because cargo doesn't try to put it's hands out the windows.
@@tin2001 If it were a cargo one, why would it even have windows?
@@Dani-El. Because it is a child (or possibly dog) trailer. It's just that most people don't use them for kids/dogs, they use them for shopping (and are sometimes sold as such) because:
1) They are cheaper, lighter and more compact than dedicated cargo trailers designed to carry more, and more functional for that purpose than a bike packing trailer
2) The cover makes them more aerodynamic and keeps your shopping dry.
3) They are easy to find cheap/used (because kids grow up, and the original owner has no further use of them) whereas dedicated cargo trailers retain their value.
4) Drivers will try to pass a cargo trailer at all costs but are less happy to risk the life of a baby or even a dog than they are a -bloody cyclist- adult human (sad but true)
Who are those cycling risk takers? Do they have a lawyer squeezing endless money out of indemnity insurance of motorists? Do they not need to work? I would not dream cycling in that fashion , except if can afford weeks and months as inpatient somewhere on an orthopaedic or spinal surgery ward , or worse , ITU until I come back to my senses and ( most probably ) reduced motor and cerebral functions after an " incident"...
The issue for me with this is that both parties even think there is an issue. In the grand scheme of things, this is just how we both progress though traffic/built-up areas. If it's safe I pass you when you have to stop, you pass me on the open road, yes sometimes it turns out to be pointless, but you can't always know that when you commit. What usually happens is one of us makes it through a light and the other doesn't, and we never see each other again, but occasionally this back and forth can happen multiple times though a town/city, I don't think anything of it other than finding it mildly amusing. And at the end of the day, I don't give a crap if I'm passed pointlessly, as long as I'm passed safely.
The Kia should have positioned in the middle of the lane at the lights so the MAMIL couldn't get past... And also indicated.... 😶
But remember, cyclist's NEVER ever believe they have done anything wrong and it's just everyone else. Well either crap cycling infrastructure or spend £100m's chopping up the road network to have traffic jams and empty cycle lanes for most of the day like they have in London....
@@Markie-ds3mt Yeah and motorists always throw their hands up and confess when they are at fault, and they never throw thier toys out of the pram and start babbling on about road tax and insurance like it somhow justifies placing another person in danger.
I don't understand why riders insist on passing vehicles which are faster than they are, only to have those vehicles attempt to pass them again. Just let them go.
I do have to say, at 1:54 you can see the Kia's left signal, it's right at the bottom on these models, which is a pretty crap place for an indicator. But it seems to have been switched off when the cyclist is in front.
We have this same model in Australia and i myself wonder how it passed Australian Design Rules.
(ADR)
As a slow-moving vehicle, how stupid and egoistic is it to overtake (at a red light) a vehicle that just overtook you...
The cyclist, by filtering in front of the MGIF driver, was giving them a passive aggressive FU.
I did a tip run with my cargo trailer the other day, wouldn't even begin to think about filtering through traffic that was stationary. Yes the trailer is narrower than the handle bars but what happens if you pass a car that doesn't see the trailer? Had a rear light on the trailer (offside) and one of two on the bike turned on for those behind me to see.
Funny thing was a car pulling a trailer pulled out of a junction with a well loaded trailer just in front of me from the right (all good, road clear etc.), and thinking he might be heading the same way, he took a different route. He travelled 4km to get to the tip. Me with a loaded trailer (bit more than the 75kg allowed) 250m less still got there before he did - and that included traffic lights and the bump up a flyover! Got talking to him while we emptied our respective loads and he thought I must have had pedalled really fast to get there before him.
You must have a very progressive council to let you use the tip with a pedal cycle. 👍
@@gavjlewis Being going there for 20+ years at various times when household appliances decide to give up. Not as many trips now but certainly a lot before we got wheelie bins and regular recycling collection and having to take bottles, glass, tins etc there.
My council would be fine with taking garbage to the tip on a bike... But my bike wouldn't like the random screws, nails, metal strips, etc that litter the roads and dumping areas.
Besides... If I can fit it into the bike trailer, I can fit it into the bin at home 😂
The increase in length as well of the bike with the trailer on the rear potentially could have caught a car and scratched it. Potentially and all be it accidentally but would the riders from the ‘anti car or internal combustion’ group of cyclists stop and exchange details? I wouldn’t think so thus meaning the motorist foots the bill for damage caused. While it may be a small group, to the motorist it’s a whole lot bigger
The general rule, at least that I follow, is that if there is traffic ahead, overtaking a cyclist is probably pointless. Sooner or later the traffic ahead will probably come to a stop and the cyclist will pass them.
You failed to mention the child's trailer. It doesn't look as though there is a child in it, but the driver can't see that, so their first over take is doubly dangerous.
Neither road user gained or lost any time here, but risk was increased quite a bit. A perfect example of just how pointless it is. Unfortunately, we see this all too often, people increasing risk for no gain whatsoever.
Maybe some worthless pride.
In this day and age and the dangerous mindset of most drivers i would never dream of putting my son in such a contraption..Drivers today simply cannot be trusted.
I generally prefer cars get ahead of me and stay ahead of me, which is why I wonder about ASL boxes. They make sense when cyclists are able to keep up with motor traffic, but otherwise they seem to just encourage a game of leap frog. We don't have them here, but I stopped filtering up the side at most intersections and don't regret the decision.
They are only good in urban settings like my city centre where all cyclists are doing the 20mph speed limit anyway or the traffic is so bad that cyclists are always in front regardless. Otherwise, they are actually dangerous imo.
Stay in your position, stop in the middle of the lane so nobody can try to come alongside you and bully you and wait. Only time I filter outside of my city centre is the odd traffic jam or very crappy lights that build up 20+ cars in a queue
Those cycle boxes at lights. I do not usually filter into them, unless A) the traffic is so jammed and slow that I am likely to be going faster by filtering so will not hold others up. Happens a lot in rush hour in busy places. B) there is a place very soon after where they can pass me - so would only hold them up for a short whole.
As a cyclist I'd have just held back. Just chill out and enjoy the ride
I'm very glad there wasn't a kid in that trailer. I'd hope the riding is safer when there is.
to go back in front of a car thats just got past you they must be absolute 2ats
First thing I noticed was a look left as the car emerged and seeing a car travelling along the road but not a second look before fully emerging after the car. Was that to keep the car close to get back in front or did the driver signal it was OK but was not picked up on camera?
While there is nothing wrong with filtering to the front at traffic lights, in all honesty I would stay where the cyclist was if it was me especially if I was turning left.
It was a poor pass by the driver (twice) but how often do we see someone trying to get back in front of a road user that has done a poor pass? If they are that bad…keep them in front. Why put yourself back into a position where a poor road user will try to get back in front?
One thing I have noticed that is wrong, and it appears to be getting worse recently, is drivers are more easily aggravated by a feeling of being “held up” by cyclists and the drivers then take their frustration out on others as well as cyclists. We all need to share the roads and if it means holding back then we hold back…cyclist, driver or rider. Remember it is nice to be nice and respect each other. Leave the emotions and egos away from the road 👍
On my motorcycle I might filter to the front but find it pointless on my cycle. Having the cars that have just overtaken you do it all over again just adds another risk. Most cyclists will go to the front but little is gained as if the cars were in front they would quickly accelerate away leaving the cyclist a clear path.
I'm not sure about you, but I accelerate much faster than any ICE car in the first instance, which gets me ahead at the next set of lights, and so on.
When I drive my car and see some leftover remnants of paint of some random cycle lane or other suggestion of cyling provisions on road, ( you need the eyes of an archeologist in the UK 😅) , I leave enoygh spa e on my nearside to allow them to pull past in front to green box.
If in my truck, and it is not much space ( junction, hazards coming up left and right, 2 lane single carriage way and drivers with poor control/ positioning near me) , I pull truck fully close to nearside kerb( trucks 2,5 m wide mostly) so that cyclist hopefully understands it would not be intelligent to pull past there.😅
Both as bad as each other. Kia driver could have held back and gained nothing by overtaking. Same for cyclist, he overtook, gained nothing, and put himself at risk. No need for any of it.
Car has overtaken bike, but then bike chooses to overtake car. If that was in a shop, or waiting for a bus, it would be pushing in, and unacceptable. Many drivers will get triggered by this 'rudeness', hence the resultant close pass. Having kept a safe distance, followed patiently, at last taken a safe overtake, having to do it all again past the same cyclist will annoy most drivers. No need for it, just queue patiently.
Filtering to the front, ahead of a car that might apparently be going straight ahead, to turn left in front of it seems an unnecessary risk.
The emerge just before thd lights looked a little dodgy too, in front of the approaching blue car.
I've always thought that there's a decent chance that the car behind the one behind me may not know i'm there as a cyclist but if a car goes past then the one ahead of me and the one behind know I'm there which is handy in towns.
Btw, the positioning of the blue Peugeot behind at the lights is fucking exquisite. anyone coming from the junction the cyclist cam in can see the cyclist and anyone coming past the blue Peugeot in the right can see the cyclist.
As an 8 year old i cycled in more intelligent positions, mostly AWAY FROM MOTORISED TRAFFIC. But again, it was Germany 30 years ago with better infrastructure than Brexit Britain .
I hope it was shopping and not a child in the trailer. If the cyclist had held back he would have avoided the whole drama
QUESTION as a driver how much **road length** distance is likely to be required to overtake a cyclist and not close pass, or cut out or in too close? Comments for 20mph and 30mph welcome.
per HW code rule 163. - at least 1.5m (a width of a normal size car) at speeds of up to 30 mph.
@@badabing8884 I mean from start to finish; how much road length? (will edit original comment)
Strange question.
Depends upon the speed of the cyclist, the speed and length of the overtaking vehicle and road conditions.
I also suggest that to overtake and then shortly after have to stop and block the cyclist is both pointless and inconsiderate.
I'll try and answer my own question and see where it gets us -- please feel free to disagree -- On the assumption we are driving at 30mph and it perhaps takes four seconds to safely pass the cyclist at the required 1.5 metres..... we need (30mph = 13m/s) 13 metres times by 4 seconds, or 52 metres. That is 52 metres of clear roadspace on both sides of the road. If you add another car in behind then that is another 4 seconds, plus an extra second for the gap between the two cars - that gives us 117 metres of clear road (on both sides). Add a third car = 182 metres. 4th car = 247 metres. That of course assumes that every car can pass by simply moving out and passing in one smooth wave like motion. If there are stutters and hesitations then there is more distance added. Is it any wonder then that cars 8, 9 and 10 struggle to not close pass! Discuss!
You're overcomplicating it it's simple can i clear in half the distance u can see and use the opposite side of road or give a decent space of 1.5m then that's it. No need for a bunch quantum physics
Cyclist I think was the most triggered. Kia was clumsy, but it was signalling left. The indicator light is on the bottom bumper where you expect the fog lights to be, and it was flashing left. Poor design by Kia.
There's a type of cyclist that will ride around with a baby in a trailer like that, get into risky situations, put their child in danger... and justify their actions were fine, because THEY did nothing wrong.
It's like going into a bear cave with your baby, and the bear attacking you... and saying, "I didn't do anything wrong, the bear did."
Might not be a child in there.
@@blake-gl4wn Yep- ultimate safety accessory, a Raleigh child trailer, marked up with extra warning/child on board signs and all that's in it is my shop from the local town 8 miles away...so much fun on an E bike too in turbo on days when there will be a significant headwind on the laden return lol.... folk don't mind trying to kill you but the thought of a child seems to make them drive a bit more carefully....
Why do you people make such dumb comparisons?
There is absolutely no comparison, similarity or connection to a car driven by a person that supposedly has a licence and a bear.
@@jeegee-cx7ss Tell me you don't understand the hierarchy of road users without...
@@hairyairey Hairy, your logic is like saying, "The law says you should not rob and steal people." then walking down a shady neighborhood at night and assuming you're not putting yourself at risk because there's a heirarchy, or laws to protect you. Good luck with that logic
had he got a kid in the back if so he don't think much about keeping them safe
To be fair I don’t give a fuck about the poor cycling, more the fact that someone who is towing a child is close passed by a vehicle. That’s a fucking disgrace from the vehicle.
Cargo trailer.
@@tin2001 why do you keep saying that? Cargo trailers don't need windows. This is a child or dog trailer, a lot of people use them for cargo, but it IS NOT a dedicated cargo trailer and the car driver should assume there is a child in there.
I think it's very selfish for a cyclist to make their way to the front just to slow down all the traffic behind them.
Also, a lot of cyclist get lost in the blindspots of veichles during the journey from being behind to being in front. If they just stayed in place they'd be much safer.
“The only way to win any fight , is not to get into it in the first place”
Cyclist didn't cover themselves in glory, but assuming there was a child in the tow buggy the driver should be assumed at their entitlement 😢 Welcome to today Britain 😢
The rules need to be changed so that more vulnerable users are obliged to take more pre-emptive measures to ensure their safety. At this point people are willingly putting themselves in harms way to prove a point and it's completely silly.
The driver is still in full control of their actions.
@@blake-gl4wn So is the cyclist who instigated this confrontation.
To the letter of the law, the second pass was too close. But it was done safely and as i cyclist this wouldnt cause me any offence. And its not like its a big vehical towing, speed is high for wind issues or the driver was pushing the cyclist into the curb. And yes the cyclist was better behindand should have stayed there, he was towing a trailer and was peddling like very unfit person. If you can keep up - take and hold primary.
I wouldn't have went past at the lights especially if going left. To me its just unnecessary overtake especially if a child is in the trailer potentially. Different filtering past 10 cars but a single vehicle it ist worth it
Bit of childishness from two road users, really. Got the pair of them nowhere fast.
Non-issues for me.
The cyclist was so aggressive by passing at the lights. He has a trailer, and the car is obviously upset
He was so aggressive and the number one rule is you must never upset a car driver. How was the cyclist aggressive, why sit behind a fuming engine when there is a cycle spot ahead. Car drivers need to get a life
no way cyclists unironically wear those shorts
I do wear them when cycling, but under other shorts. They don't chafe like cotton.
I don't want to look like a pair of overstuffed sausages.
The power bulge was strong in this one
Poor cycling made a poor manoeuvre by the car driver worse!
The Kia pass was fine to me, the cyclist should of just waited behind it.
Given the cycle trailer is for a child, then squeezing between two vehicles was highly questionable. Was the cyclists giving a recognised hand signal when he let go of the handlebar? Cyclists rarely give any indication of their intentions from my observations.
Its a cargo trailer not a child one.
My take is if cyclists want to be treated like a car (i.e. in the amount,of space they are given) they should behave as though they are in a car and not filter past in a dangerous manner.
Can you explain the 'dangerous' element of the cyclist's filtering? Do you mean, at very worst, the car might have been scratched? Can't see a film doing well with that as the thriller component.
@@atakd Not specifically this video but filtering in general. Often times one has no idea they are there, especially in queuing traffic.
@@chrisl1797 Consider the situation where cyclists didn't filter. If you were driving behind one, you'd be furious because you'd have to drive at their pace for however long the journey was if the roads were narrow/busy.
Filtering improves the flow of traffic.
I don’t want to be treated like I’m a car. I do want cars to pass safely.
@@glenn1534 That doesn't make sense and isn't what I am on about. If the cyclist is passable, then we should and can go past when it is safe. It seems to me as many (if not all) cyclists get furious when they filter through at lights/junctions only to be inevitably passed again 10 seconds later.
Two wrongs don't make it right.
I think the only reason the cyclist done this is because he has a camera. There is a lot of drivers and cyclists just doing these sorts of things for content.
Better to give in than die trying 😐
They both need to grow up 😢 what's worse is the cyclist may possibly have a child in tow 😢
The cyclist and driver triggered each other. But the cyclist and his precious (child/dog) cargo are far far more vulnerable. Cyclist should have been much more careful. Impatient close pass by driver too.
Being a road cyclist in the right { though this guy was in the wrong } dose not matter, you are the one who gets hurt.
Given the poor driving of the Kia, passing them was clearly an error of judgment…..