Eastern Orthodox Poaching Traditional Catholics
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
After the release of Pope Francis' Motu Proprio, Traditionis Costodes, there was an incident at my FSSP church where there were groups of people waiting for churchgoers to arrive. One was an Eastern Orthodox priest and the other was a group from the SSPX. They were trying to take advantage of the potential alienation of traditional Catholics in light of the recent revisions to Church law. Here are my thoughts on what that suggests.
We went Eastern Catholic... but I'm not going to lie, listening to heroes like Fr Josiah Trenham speak out against BLM, COVID restrictions, and Marxists is inspiring... and then I look at my Catholic Bishops...
I know this feeling well. But as a fellow Eastern Catholic we cannot allow men to sway us. I say that as someone who greatly admires Fr Trenham and owns many things Patristic Nectar has put out. Good men and evil men will be all mixed in together regardless of the tradition or name on the door. We must go where Christ is, where His faithful are. I leave that for each of us to discern.
As a Melkite, I respect and know Fr. Josiah and love his Patristic Nectar... The big problem that I have with Fr. Josiah is though he left Protestantism, Protestantism didn't leave him as he speaks down about Melkites... I have even heard him talk smack about the Coptic...
True enough that the Catholic Church has issues but make no mistake, the Orthodox have their own issues and are not all in unity...
You're comparing apples to oranges. Fr Josiah Trenham is not an Orthodox bishop. There are plenty of faithful Catholic bishops, and plenty of questionable Orthodox bishops.
Fr. Trenham is a wonderful priest. He is doing the Lord's work.
@@8475143117 As a Byzantine Catholic I do agree with you. Eastern Orthodox have lots of problems too. In Romania many faithful Orthodox even say that the Romanian Orthodox Church is all rulled by freemasons. True or not, they still have lots of problems. We shall not be escapists. Our Catholic Church is great and the bride of Christ. Ave Christus Rex!
My faith is not a fashion accessory. I will remain with the Catholic church.
Implying what?
The Orthodox Church (One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church) is not a fashion accessory.
And if that is all you think it is, is some more Aesthetic looking Christianity, you are ignorant.
@@CobraRedstone I did not say it was. I respect the Orthodox Church. My point was that if I left my faith because my liturgy wasn't pretty then I would be treating MY faith as a fashion accessory.
@@beauty.of.the.struggle implying that if I left because of the prettiness of liturgy that my faith would be treated as a fashion accessory. We good?
@@CobraRedstone though I must admit the more Orthodox I meet online the happier I am that I am Catholic.
I'm just at the beginning of this video and I must say that the way the Orthodox priest and SSPX priest did this was in very poor taste. If a Roman Catholic wishes to enter into the Orthodox Church, let it be out of a sincere desire to join rather than a reaction under duress. I'm Orthodox and I'm praying for your Church. We were once one Church so I bear you all no ill will. I'm devastated for the faithful Traditional Catholics out there. This isn't the time to try and poach members. It's a time of prayer for your Church and her members. I'll continue to pray for you all. God bless.
Become Catholic.
Amen. You said it right.
@@hamie7624 Which kind?
@@williamjones6971 the kind that is not in Schism with the See of St Peter.
No
Brian is describing the Orthodox Church from minute 7:57. Thats the understanding that we have of the Holy Tradition and our role in transmitting it without changes from generation to generation for 2000 years. In the Orthodox Church we do not consider ourselves "traditional" because we have "old" customs or because we have a different architecture, but because we have maintained the understanding and teachings from Christ and His Apostles to this day. The cultural wealth that we have is only an addition or a positive consequence, but none of that defines us as Orthodox, it is the Faith without blemishes that was bequeathed to us from ancient past generations and protected by the Holy Spirit Who is the one who guards the Church and resides in her. If tomorrow our temples, books or even our icons are taken away, our Faith would remain the same, whether doing a liturgy on a rock or praying in the darkness of a cave away from civilization, our rock is Christ and only in Him we hope. Btw, nice Icons in the wall.
Sadly, though, the Orthodox have caved on divorce and don't accept the Filioque, which is absolutely ancient, patristic and orthodox.
@@lorddevonshire6382 the Orthodox Church does not admit the origin of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, but only from the Father. This is why the Orthodox Church rejects the addition of the "Filioque" in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol. The Holy Spirit has not a double procession. The unilateral introduction by the Latin Church of the term Filioque was prior to the year 1054, that theory born from the West does not make it patristic and even worse in Orthodox, much older is the teaching of Christ that clearly explains the origin of the Holy Spirit from the Father, just as the Church confesses to this day, because not only the external mysteries, but also the most recondite divine mysteries were revealed by Christ and by the spirit of faith both to the holy apostles, as to all the Holy Church.
The Church does not reject the fact that the Holy Spirit is sent not only by the Father, but also by the Son, but the Church rejects the concept that the Holy Spirit had His original principle in the bosom of the Trinity himself: not only from the Father, but also from the Son. Those who have turned away from the Church of Christ and have been deprived of his grace, have lost the internal knowledge of the faith, and are only limited to superficial knowledge; that is why in Rome they can only know what is external, and not the divine internal mysteries. The Christian denominations that departed from the Holy Church can no longer confess (because they could not spiritually understand) the origin of the Holy Spirit only from the Father. They have tried to preserve the external aspect of the law, but lost the internal meaning and grace of God both in confession and in life.
If you follow the teachings as handed down why did you adopt the protestant teaching that one can divorce and remarry in your church? Where do you stand on birth control now as compared to your teaching on it in the past? These are big issues. Much bigger than a style of worship.
@@nnovo3122 Orthodox Christians believe divorce is a sin. Roman Catholic say they don't believe in divorce but the numbers on annulments do not lie. Your argument about the Church's divorce is divorced from reality.
Remarriage is also against God's will but remarrying one person is better than living a life of promiscuity. It would be best for a divorced person to be reunited with their spouse or remain celibate. Orthodoxy has the concept of oeconomia which recognizes that no one can live up to God's standards and so there are cases where second and even third (but never fourth) marriages can be blessed but not with the same honor as the first marriage.
I'm not leaving. I'm praying hard so our bishops don't take away what feeds so many of the flock.
We've already won, Jesus Himself said so, so I will do what Padre Pio says:
"Pray, hope and don't worry."
Sorry to break it to you, but about half of your bishops are homosexual feemasons an according to your Canon law, the pope is the indisputable king. And it's been like this for a long time.
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregone I don't follow a bishop or the pope I follow Christ and His Church is His Body regardless of the imperfect, flawed and sinful men in it.
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregone and no, the pope is no king, he's a man, flawed and sinful. and as such we should all pray for him as we do others
@@Fiona2254 your canon law says differently
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregone what you think isn't what it is.
Going to the SSPX is not abandoning the Church. And you don't get the idea of why certain things have been handed down to us in a traditional manner, therefore you understand going to a traditional parish not as a theological issue but rather about taste and personal attatchments and that's simply wrong
The SSPX is *not* in communion with the actual Catholic church. Not in any way, shape or form. To suggest that the SSPX is in any kind of communion with Rome is to pretend. Please read what Vatican I and II say about the living pope's authority. Pope Benedict XVI explained that the SSPX has no canonical status in the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons and that SSPX ministers "do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."
@@joeoleary9010 The Germans are in communion...
Lol this is terrible. Where are getting your knowledge of Orthodoxy from? Moscow sent missionaries to the Alaskans which is how they received it and Orthodoxy got big there. Guatemala is also booming from Orthodox missions. If we go into history this is how the world received Christianity lol.
this is the guy who said he didn't convert to Orthodoxy because he thought they were ethnic clubs and he didn't feel comfortable with foreign languages. Not a high level thinker we're dealing with here.
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 "The evil orthobros are racist!!!"
What a clown, he's way out of line.
@Brian Farley Sorry buddy, not to be rude, but i think your first sentence sums up and defeats your own argument in all honesty lol. Sorry for the long reply as well but its just too good to pass up lol.
Given now that he has shown he has no clue on Orthodox ecclesiology or mission work, i take it he would also spout the same type of uneducated rhetoric about those topics because he would do it from the same faulty premise (treating it from a RCC worldview).
Sorry, but to be frank, The accusation is that RCs are not educated on church history (including their own), councils, etc and you seem to be showing that hand here and dont know that its not ambiguous on those topics you listed, its kinda a RC talking point and its funny that the RCC is burning and is 100% subject to the Pope who has the ability to determine what tradition is and is not on whim, and they are willing to die on the divorce hill while never having read any church fathers on the matter themselves.
Also, kinda a dumb comment, why would we need ecumenical councils (even though we do have synods) when there is not an issue for one lol? what issues of faith and morals are in flux that we need a council for lol? Need i remind you of your own church's faith and morals issues with uh i dont know, with James Martin being affirmed and blessed for LGBTQ ministries, Mahoney being praised, the amazon synod, the ecumenist prayer gatherings on the ziggurat, the Assisi gatherings, the fact that 70% or more of RCs dont believe in the real presence, and need i remind you that you have several factions / sects of Catholicism who fundamentally disagree with eachother and Rome itself (that alone ends the debate lol) while we Orthodox have the same united faith but different jurisdictions to prevent a Pope Francis situation according to the apostolic passing down?
Saying "leaderless" sums up the debate. Christ is the head. Have you heard of him? The fact that councils were passed for hundreds of years without Romes approval in the 1st millennium kinda shows you dont need Rome for that doesnt it? Anyways, God bless and look forward to a response. Dude, faith and morals coming from a RCC, come on bruh..........
@@TommyGunzzz "Discernment" for papists means repeating the same, typical, easily refuted critiques of Orthodoxy that they heard from the other papists. This guy did not sit around and meditate upon the teachings, aesthetics, or spiritual vibe of Orthodox communities and then 'discerned' what is wrong about them. He just repeated what he's heard all the other Romanists say. It's all so tiresome.
Thanks Brian for your content. Ex atheist here, will get my baptism, confirmation and first communion in 2-3 months.
Welcome home future brother in christ.
How was it? God Bless.
@@JohnSmith-qx8ll Still a catechumen, my priest wanted to baptize and confirm me this Easter. Today Im strugling with my faith, but I remain hopeful, I have had more difficult moments in my life.
@@berserker9682 Don't frett about your faith brother. The seed has been planted. Now you just have to push out of the dirt. My spiritual mentor gave me some of the best advice I could have been given. I eas also on the ropes on my faith and the church for a good while. He told me that the Church would always be there for me as dirty of a sinner as I could become to hose me down and me struggling with God on certian things, "well that's having a relationship with the him" I know now though I might not understand his plan that it's growing pains and the moment we let him have that frustration and get out of the way we fully let him work his miracles and wonders on our lives. If you fell off your horse, dust your ass off and get back on.
@@fu2974 Thanks for your support, currently Im in a spiritual dessert. I still know that the Lord loves me and he is my saviour. The most comforting thought I have is that Christ suffered far more and God knows the pain of the flesh and soul, I trust and believe he waits for me when I die. I daily keep my prayers and also discovered that Loving his Mother is key to loving Christ.
Im from Latin America, we only have NO masses here... so this conflict is really foreign to me but I was raised to love the parish I was born into... Always went to the same parish, priests came and went, some better or worse than others, sometimes good singing, sometimes awful...but my mother always said that you went for Jesus, not the priest or the music... I completly understand that a beautiful liturgy would be better but we can not have things as we want them sometimes, we have to be humble and struggle to focus on whats important... I agree with you 100%
Rosario, sounds like your experience mimics my own-sometimes great pastors, other times not so much. Some amazing music directors, others just going through the motions. But my family has remained because we come for Jesus Christ in the holy sacrifice of the Mass. While inspiring homilies and beautiful, uplifting music can enrich the beauty of the Mass, they are not the Main Event and nothing, if you truly understand what is happening in the Mass, is more beautiful than, and profound than, that-regardless of the external visual and auditory experiences.
Your mother is a wise woman Rosario.
I was looking for this comment. The western Catholic world is behaving as tho a nuclear bomb was dropped on it. The original mass was NOT in Latin in the middle east. It is only a mode of communication. The mass still exists. Find a reverent place n just go there ppl. We r not attending a show. We shld look beyond that.
Exactly your spot on, the main reason is the Eucharist and praying for the Pope and the Church itself to be free from deception that always continuously attacks the Catholic Church and their followers but if you raise the kids right and to the know difference then they shouldn’t be deceived even when they’re continuously attacked. God will always protect his True Church but it’s clear that there are a lot of wolves in the Catholic Church but that just reconfirms that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ cause it’s always forever today and even through out history always being attacked. And the Attacks are getting extremely strong cause the Devil knows he has little time left to deceive the Catholics before Jesus comes back, so the Devil is like in full force now in trying to tear people away from the Truth, you have to pray daily Rosary and Divine Mercy Chaplet, I pray it Twice a day and I still think I need to pray it more as sometimes the attacks are sooo strong but cause I’m weary of these attacks and know it’s the Devils duty to do it then I just hold on, but yeah there are days when I feel weaker then other days but I just prY anyhow and then I feel rejuvenated about it all and just continue doing my daily things. Then I see blessings come my way and that’s how I know I’m definitely doing the right thing. GodBless I just wanted to share and encourage you and others that may read this. 🙏❤️🙏
The care for actual legitimacy is the actual main reason for most conversions.
Ask the actual converts.
Ask the many priests that converted after serious theologian research, like Father Aristibule Adams or Father Spyridon Bailey.
It has nothing to do with feelings or comfort.
At least the Orthodox aren’t doing what the Catholics did to them in making them convert under the threat of violence. I’m Orthodox & after watching your current Pope there’s no way I could even think about changing over, even though being disabled it would make life so much easier due to the distance I would have to travel.
Rejecting the Church cuz of a bad Pope is like rejecting Jesus cuz of Judas.
@@izabeera166 God didn't build his church on the rock of Judas.
"Do you have time to talk about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?"
"I'm literally at church rn"
Lol “are you mad at your Pope? Come to our church, we don’t have one!”
Heretics be like: "Are you mad at the authority appointed by Christ in his Church? Don't worry you can join ours where we have none of that"
@@notsam9528 lol, Ain't that the truth!
@@notsam9528 Some of those 'authorities' were into bestiality and children; I think that line of succession was disrupted looong ago. But go off, I appreciate confidence in one's faith.
@@supercalifragic1551 and who said that authority was disrupted? Pretty sure it wasn't anyone trying to usurp that authority right?
The way you communicate ideas is superior. Greatly appreciated Brian.
Is vastly uneducated and bro-ey
Prayers for my traditional Catholic friends in this time of turmoil. Much love
The apostolic sees of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople still exist
I agree with you. How do you Violate the basic teaching of the Catechism and still say that you are practicing the one true found in the Holy Roman Catholic Church ? I HAVE A LINE IN SAND , if the folks in Rome cross it I am going Eastern Rite. I am second generation Polish off the boat
All of those were conquered and are Islamic now minus Jerusalem. The Turkish government doesn't even recognizes Patriarch Bartholomew's title. Only Rome and Addis Abba still stand free.
Yeah he kind of messed up with his rhetoric. But you have to concede that some of the cities themselves don’t really exist. Antioch is in ruins and Istanbul has just ended Hagia Sophia’s status as a museum recently. From a cursory view these places don’t seem like centers of Christianity…
@@loveandmercy9664 so ?the patriarchs are still around and will continue to exist did they not exist during the time of persecution under the pagan Roman emperors?That's not really a valid argument . have you also forgotten how rome was the first to fall to barbarians ?
@@Abk367 Rome did fall to the barbarians, however they converted to Christianity.
Constanople fell to the Turks unfortunately, They're not converting any time soon.
You know that Traditional Catholicism isn’t working.
It is time to embrace the Orthodox Catholic Faith.
Visit your local Orthodox Priest and talk to them.
I’ve already made up my mind.
I’m joining the Orthodox Church, and so are many others that I know that are either doing the same or considering it. TradCatholics fear Orthodoxy, because it is the only serious opposition and claimant to being the One True Church.
@@eDENjoetree I’ve also spoken to a lot of RCs on this issue. They’ve literally admitted they purposely avoid Orthodox polemics out of fear of being proven wrong.
I converted to Orthodoxy from Trad RCs a year ago best decision i made. That whole scene is an absolute disaster and living contradiction.
Visit your local Orthodox Liturgy a few times and get the flavour. Your local Orthodox priest will probably advise you to do that.Then try to look at the claims of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church. After that judge the truth of the claim that there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church and study some history.
I used to be an orthodox. Orthodoxy is not the way.
@@chrisflorescu6743 Clearly neither has Rome been the way for the past 50 years. Which leaves?
While I prefer the Tridentine rite, I have attended the Novus Ordo where it has been celebrated with great reverence and beauty. But the Tridentine Rite is the wave of the future!
I'd like to think that, but the new church wont allow that
@@animefreddiemercury not at the moment but it's coming!
@@jackieo8693 I mean I'll keep saying my rosary and doing penances, but I'm not expecting anything to change. World is worse than in 1917, and the hierarchy dont even seem to believe in the faith. I think they'll start blessing gay "marriages" and ordaining women before they embrace the pre-councilior teachings
@@animefreddiemercury maybe but don't despair. The triumph of the Immaculate Heart is coming!
@@jackieo8693 eventually, but I doubt in my life time. It's gonna get a lot worse, listen to the warnings at Akita.
I feel like I've been noticing this for a while on Twitter. Good vid as always
Oh yeah. The Twitter Orthobros are something else. I have come up with a new name for this phenomenon: Toxidoxy.
@@dianekamer8341 :)) the new name suits it well : they're scavanging on people in distress
So you “heard it from a friend” and don’t even know what jurisdiction or local church this “Orthodox priest” was a part of?? Ok, I’ll just be logging that away in the category of things that didn’t actually happen.
😂 LOL! Groups from Eastern Orthodox and SSPX are both lined up trying to poach people heading into a church immediately following the Pope's letter. Amazing that they mobilized so quickly! Equally amazing that they worked so well together for different causes. Also amazing that they weren't at mass themselves and spent the morning loitering at a conciliar church. This is laughable BS and just sad and desperate really. He's comparing Traditional Catholics who embrace the sacred magisterium and traditions of the Church to protestants like Luther who reject the magisterium and traditions of the church. Luther said if you destroy the Mass, you destroy the church, and he was correct. Luther encouraged tables at a Eucharistic Celebration instead of alters at an Eternal Sacrifice. Early protestant leaders encouraged people to receive Communion on the hand while standing instead of kneeling because they didn't believe in the real presence of Our Lord in the Sacred Host.
Traditional Masses are overflowing while diocesan masses are almost vacant. Guess what, SSPX doesn't have to recruit they have more family's than their churches can hold with 3-4 Masses per Sunday. They can build new churches and schools fast enough to keep up with the demand.
This is a gross video and an obvious misrepresentation of truth.
The fact that there are so many aggresive Orthodox propagandists ''fishing' in this comment section actually proves his point, that they were mobilized to vulturize on the catholics.
@@salez9830 how does people commenting from their home computers and cell phones on a post prove that multiples groups were mobilized outside a church? Has it happened anywhere else? Did any come back to the same church?
He fabricated the story.
@@kyj.wilson4327 yeah but Holdsworth and I live in the same city, and being former Eastern Orthodox; I doubt there was an Orthodox priest waiting for them.
I think he means online
A traditional Catholic community is the community that follows the vicar of Christ.
So who do we follow? Honest question, pope Francis dropped title from himself right? Im not sede.
@@Luka-xx5ve Follow Pope Francis, he was duly elected by the Holy Spirit
@@markcline516 I know I dont deny him as far as my knowledge goes. Im just saying he dropped title of Vicar, and Im not counting many other bad moves including last moto proprium
Francis, apart from cancelling TLM, he also cancelled the title of The Vicar of Christ
@@handel1111 he didn't cancel the title, he prefers to only use one of many titles "Bishop of Rome," all the other titles still apply to his seat.
I have a very, very hard time believing an Orthodox priest was outside of an RCC parish poaching Roman Catholics.
I thought the exact same thing. Second hand account is very weak evidence. “I heard it from a friend…” isn’t proof. For all we know, it could’ve been a Coptic or Maronite priest. If it’s Sunday, Orthodox priests are serving LITURGY.
@@aquiladavid5681 No sorry coptic priests like other orthodox will never do such a thing. They have too much to do on their list than stealing sheep. These accusations are totally false.
That closing line needs to be shouted from the rooftops by Catholics right now
I relate very much to what you saying about truth being the most important. When I was first looking into more traditional forms of the faith, I was impressed by so many liturgies. But once I realized that the Catholic Church was true, even though I found the Novus Ordo liturgy disappointing, I knew that I had to attend mass. But I am grateful that God showed me a traditional mass community in my local area. But if that went away, I could not switch to a schismatic sect simply because of a preference for traditional liturgy.
I've come to believe that part of the Catholic life is this tension and interchurch conflict. Because the conflict itself exposes the reality of the truth of the church and it's necessity in the world.
It seems like a very good conclusion.
It reminds me on the time of Great western schism where there were few popes, or pretenders to the position, and you had saints who supported different sides and it was a nasty, bitter, ugly struggle.
I am not a big fan of Hegelian dialectics. The Truth will not be set free through conflict. We are dragged away from it by conflict. And it's not a necessity in the world, albeit a reality in this world. A world being actively led astray by evil's workings.
So, as a reality check, the way you are feeling right now is how the synagogues and the Pharisees felt about the early Jesus followers. Also, you are missing the point if you think this is all about liking the Mass or something like that. The Pope is making a very clear example of the points the Eastern Orthodox have been expressing from the Schism.
There are big Traditions, those that Christ personally taught, and little traditions that men have added. The last few Popes have been messing with the structure and content of the big Traditions, which indicates they believe they are above Jesus. If this doesn't give you a crisis of faith in the Pope, are you really paying attention? (The Mass as expressed in whatever spoken language is fine, and there will be others that are what you think, but the changes of the content are the major problem.)
This is the reason I am not becoming Catholic, having been looking into joining. The structure of the Roman Catholic Church doesn't allow for correction, due to the notion of infallibility.
It's really telling you are describing all your examples in worldly ways, and not looking at the spiritual implications.
The spiritual way of looking at it is not a position of strength or weakness, but rather is the harvest ready. Again, this is exactly how Christianity started, and how Christ described the way the world works.
I want to thank you for helping me confirm my path toward Eastern Orthodoxy. May God open all our eyes.
That's a ridiculous comparison, as Jesus didn't vulturize on anything. He and His Apostles preached Gospel, not cynically wait until others will be in a state of confusion.
@@salez9830 Right, He called people out of darkness into the Truth. As the Orthodox have been doing, before this latest attestation of the fallability of the Papal Authority doctrine.
Dear Brian, your video is interesting. You strive to persuade but be careful not to strive against God. Orthodoxy does not attract anyone by force. The Orthodoxy follows the words of the Savior: "Search and you will find, knock and it will open to you". The Catholic Church broke away from the original Church when the bishop of Rome wanted to be the ultimate authority, above the other bishops with whom he was equal. Then he ruined the initial confession of faith and imposed other practices in worship. Don't ask yourself why after that the Catholic Church was divided into thousands of denominations and churches, why the Catholic churches in Europe are empty, why they are made into bars, hotels, restaurants, concert halls, gyms, etc., why they are bought by Muslims and turned into mosques? The Orthodox Church has gone through centuries (and still does) of martyrdom, but it has remained unchanged, passing on the teachings and love of God through the millennia. Please read the books of the Holy Fathers, study the tradition and history and you will find the peace of God in Orthodoxy. Come home!
What about all the millions of Orthodox in Europe who've been "poached" by the Catholic church over the centuries through the RCC's aggressive promotion and church building?
That's called evangelization.
What about the Middle East? The papists engage in constant sheep stealing of Orthodox Catholic faithful. Same thing in Russia. They have an ENTIRE RELIGIOUS ORDER called the Jesuits which are professional sheep stealers for the Pope. It’s just disingenuous at this point.
I was a "cradle" catholic, raised in the latin rite. I served as an altar boy having been taught the latin responses and prayers. I watched the church slowly become more and more , to my mind, loose its soul. I am no longer a believer. Yet rejoice in my catholic upbringing, as it gave me a wider outlook on life and culture. Because of it, I can follow the great masses written by the great classical composers etc. I will attend a latin mass, from time to time, which now is to be deied me. Your video is excellen. Thank you sir.
As an Orthodox who has a lot of sympathy for Roman faithful (not so much for the Roman hierarchy), I'd encourage you to go back to Christianity - for real. There are lots of people with burning love for Christ, including in the Roman Church. While I do wish every person to become Christian and every Christian to become Orthodox, I would say that being raised Catholic was a gift that you can't throw away - at least not with the price of throwing Christ Himself (Who is much more than a kind of rite or a certain type of liturgy). Be blessed in your soul.
@@mariusfilip1847 Thank you Marius for your kind and heartfelt words. I also has a great respect for the Othodox Christian faith, which we were told as Roman Catholics, we were permited to attend, if no Catholic church was available. The Creed sung in Russian at Easter, can bring a tear to my eyes. I would return to either faith, if I could believe in the existance of God. But I am afraid, logic and reason keeps getting in the way.
@@shackledcitizen Prideful "logic" and "reason" will stop you from believing in God, but humility will always lead you to have faith in God. Spend time with some real Orthodox monks, and you will begin to learn what true humility, spirituality, and theology is. And then, once you acquire the gift of humility...that is when the mystery of faith begins to grow.
@@NoeticInsight That is the dumbest response ever. I seek proof not "humility".
@@shackledcitizen You seek “evidence” of God, yet you don’t want humility…when humility IS the way for you to see the evidence that is blatantly all around you. Humility is the greatest virtue a man can achieve, because humility is the only way to truly know thyself. And once you know thyself, only then will you know God and the veil that is before your eyes will be lifted and suddenly you will see and understand the evidence that has always been there. Pride makes man foolish, humility makes man truly intelligent.
Not all EO are like this, but some certainly are. When I was Lutheran and my church body was undergoing a crisis, there were some EO that were hanging over us like vultures, ready to pick off our weakest. And with this latest crisis, I have gotten some friend requests and DMs from that same type of EO after I put up a post about the latest crisis. This has honestly made me even less likely to consider EO as a viable option.
They're like this on twitter too.
That’s tough, log off line and walk into a church or monastery though. Losers online are everywhere Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant ect. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that 🤷🏻♂️. One last bit of info I will leave you with is Western Rite Orthodoxy. The mass is the same as the Western European Church Fathers and Saints attended pre schism. It’s also done in Latin. Here is a quick video on it ua-cam.com/video/Xj0UHlpbcsA/v-deo.html. Also, who cares, just block those people, it’s ok. God bless you
Just remember the early Catholics under Pagan Rome, they were severally and brutally persecuted yet they endured through it
In those days we had bishops who held true to the Faith. Now you have bishops that are constantly making changes. Do Catholics really think the 'New Order' mass is what Christ and His Apostles wanted ?
@@Badnercalabrese there were also bishops that weren't true to faith in those times !!
@@theresemartin3920 of course! In EO it is often said the path to Hell is paved by bishops and priests. No Bishop was 'infalliable' by dogma until Vatican I.
yes, we must remain faithful to the Cath Church, the one established on the Rock of peter by Christ our Lord
There's no such thing as early catholics dumbass. The early Church was One.
I think you best crack open a history book. The Orthodox Church of Moscow brought Orthodoxy to America and Canada. The present Orthodox Church of America is now autocephalous, but it was once under the Patriarch of Moscow. I am in a Greek Orthodox Church, but I routinely go to Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Serbian and Albanian Orthodox Churches. We are in communion share the same liturgy and theology.
I've been rather interested in the Eastern Catholic churches recently; definitely a better alternative to the leaving for the Orthodox. If I can't find a Latin Mass anytime, I may look to a Eastern liturgy instead, although they seem rather uncommon.
EDIT: 37 replies. AHHH
How is that better? It just sounds like a massive cope tbh. The Eastern Catholic churches are still under Rome, so if you have beef with Rome then there is literally no difference.
@@Bellg that's why we don't have beef with Rome. The Catholic Church is still the Church, and Orthodoxy is still a schismatic sect. The language you speak or the songs you sing in mass don't matter outside of the church.
@That Dude You don't seem to understand my point. If you have beef with Rome currently, and reject or revolt against the decisions of the current Pope, then how is it in any way impactful to "switch rites" and start going to a byzantine church. It changes nothing, the Pope is still the boss. So why even do it...
@@Bellg because he is loyal to christ and his Church, he is not a schismatic.
@That Dude Literally all I said was, "if you have beef with Rome, changing rites changes nothing"
Speaking as an Eastern Orthodox here, I too have been troubled by what I've seen from some fellow Orthodox in this troubling time for our Roman friends. I feel that many are more interested in gloating and telling you "I told you so," as opposed to trying to finding a path which will be less divisive and which might actually help bring some of you guys over.
(not saying that the grass isn't greener here though :D )
I'm Latin Catholic. There aren't any Orthodox churches near me, so it's highly unlikely that I'd consider changing over. I appreciate that you want unity, but I think the way to pray and work for unity is to pray for our bishops and Patriarchs to lead the Faithful according to God's will, according to the truth of Jesus Christ, and not men's opinions. The most troublesome thing for a Faithful Christian is to be shepherded by an opinionated, unfaithful man. The next most troublesome thing is to be claimed by two or more different shepherds, each claiming to be the true representative of the Owner of the flock.
Cope
The difference is that the dogma or practice of the entire Orthodox Church cannot be changed by the pen stroke of a single man. If all but one Orthodox bishop falls into heresy, then Orthodoxy remains unchanged. This is why you have seen countless innovations in the west that amount to apostasy and heresies in the last millennium, but the Eastern church has preserved the fullness of the true Faith.
Truth divides when many despise it.
Christ prefers us to be hot or cold, and not seeking an artificial middle ground, pretending to be neutral, when it is really a contempt for the Great Commission.
The Apostles ran away and hid. We should not, must not do the same.
Other Churches should not be trying to lure Catholics to their Church, they should be praying for us and giving us support through this crisis. It's the same as a marriage in crisis. Do you try to lure someone away from their spouse and children? Do you simply walk out on your spouse and children and cheat with someone else?
If we leave....Satan wins.
Consider, the Orthodox do divorce and remarry in their church. They call it a penatential ceremony.
The care for actual legitimacy is the actual main reason for most conversions.
Ask the actual converts.
Ask the many priests that converted after serious theologian research, like Father Aristibule Adams or Father Spyridon Bailey.
It has nothing to do with feelings or comfort.
Father Aristibule Adams had been assigned by the Vatican to produce arguments against the Orthodox Church. After 11 years of dilligent research - he found a huge number of Roman Catholic forgeries and he converted to the Orthodox Church for legitimacy reasons. Legitimacy.
I remember watching a video from Reason and Theology. In that video, Father John Whiteford said “I see the traditional-minded Catholics are struggling. The doors of the Orthodox Church is open for you”. He must be the head of the Marketing Department of the Orthodox Church.
As a westerner who first converted to Orthodoxy 7 years ago, I can say they have their own problems that become very clear the longer you remain within. I am attending RCIA now regardless of these issues ongoing in The Church. Read Vlad Soloviev’s “Russia and the Universal Church” and that gets into the meat of the details.
Soliviev was writing at a time when the Russian Orthodox Church was a government department modelled on the Swedish national Lutheran Church. The Patriarchate was not restored until 1917.
@@physiocrat7143 Sad
@@wolfenhauz The contemporary RC Church is in a state of civil war with two different religious battling with each other. These battles are a dividing force even within parishes, giving rise to a toxic atmosphere. Orthodox squabbling is mostly about property and jurisdictions. You can take your pick between the two
At a more fundamental level you can say that there is a focus on theory and system in the west and on praxis in the east. The Russian Church in the synodal period was run down.
Following Jesus is not about going to a church/denomination just because it is “based” and conservative enough for your preference. It’s about belonging to THE Church because it is TRUE. Scripture makes it very clear that Christ established A church, not multiple. Pope Francis being a globalist/leftist doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. Catholic doctrine and the catechism do, and those are essentially unchanging.
But the true church should be based and conservative no?
@@Bellg Of course! I’m just saying the Pope and hierarchy being globalist, leftist or even heretical is not a legitimate reason to leave the Church. If the catechism is radically changed or if the Pope invokes infallibility to propagate heresy, then we have a real problem.
@@Bellg I don't know what you mean by "based", and it doesn't have to be "conservative". The important part is the apostolic tradition (a continuity of the Church established by Jesus and every generation receiving the tradition from the previous generation).
Could the Chruch go so off the rails that is no longer worthy?, there is nothing illogical about that, but it would be contrary to the gospel. God has the power to prevent that from happening and he promised us that that would not happen; so I only see 2 reasonable options:
1. Keep believing that the Church is legitimate (even when it can have some faults that may need to be fixed, in part with the help of the Holy Spirit through the actions of the congregation).
2. Stop believing in Christianity altogether.
Admittedly, Orthodox Christians can also make a case for claiming that they have apostolic tradition, but my point is that the discussion should focus on which Church has the apostolic succession rather than which one is conservative enough or "based" enough.
@@Bellg The True Church is based and conservative. But like all things based and conservative they are viciously attacked by all angles and even from within.
@@luisoncpp I don't deny that, but the way I see it there are currently two claimants to the "apostolic succesion", and one of them keeps doing weird things and changing loads of things that do not need changing just to follow the "modern world"
And the other does not.
Which one sounds like the true church to you in this scenario?
My old RC priest told me I could attend orthodox liturgy 4 years ago, and since then I've never looked back.
"haha bad pope come be a schismatic"
literal protestants
Sadly Protestants appeared because of Catholic bishops and Popes. Initially Protestantism was a try to heal Christianity from the corruption at the highest level.
@@sfappetrupavelandrei Initially protestantism was a coprophage priest's desire to marry a nun and it just went downhill from there.
Literal valid sacraments
Rome was the first protestant church and the reformation is the fruits of her apostacy. A direct theological lineage can be traced from Leo III to Aquinas to Luther, they all shared the same phronema, that of the Germanic Arians.
Sadly Brian this is something all of us seem to do to varying degrees. I grew up Confessional Lutheran and have experienced both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox poach off of our shortcoming. Once while we were in the Divine service, a group of Catholics had come around and posted fliers under our car windshields, telling us to repent. My pastor at the time joked that he should dress like Martin Luther and nail Martin's theses to their door. In all seriousness, we regard such actions as 'sheep stealing' and as a way to get converts outside the normal means of having them speak to their pastor/priest who is responsible for the souls he shepherds. I am sorry that you have had to experience this. God have mercy.
During your conversion, you arrived at a definition of Church. Your definition includes Orthodoxy. The only reason for a Catholic NOT to consider Orthodoxy is cultural, not theological. I can imagine a Roman Rite within Orthodoxy being established within the next 20 years. Yes, Latin Mass and Saints and the Breviary under the patronage of a Russian or Greek Bishop. All that has to happen is to get rid of the Satan's greatest triumph, the filioque.
The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia already has a Western Rite liturgy and so does the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of America. The fullness of Orthodoxy and the beauty, piety and solemnity of the Western tradition - check out Western Rite Orthodoxy
I seem to recall that Russian church is trying to get everyone into the same congregations.
I have so much to answer, as an Orthodox Christian, to every one of your points (but I will refrain here, unless invited to dialog). First, let me say that the only reason I follow your channel (and have for a very long time) is because you have so much that is good and worthwhile to say. There is much that resonates with me. Traditional Catholics are natural allies to us in many ways. Since you represent a minority of your communion and the majority of Orthodox are also "traditionalists" (not, by the way, in the caricature you presented with "old stuff," but precisely the definition you gave, i.e. faithfully preserving and passing down that which has been received from generation to generation), the remainder (in both communions) being some mixture of heretics, syncretists, liberals, modernists, ecumenists, etc., it is no wonder that Orthodox are likely to see Traditionalist Catholics as more faithful and closer to the pre-Schism "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" of the Creed, the Ecumenical Councils, etc. Like I said, as traditionalists, we are not going to tolerate much "ecumenism," so while liberal Catholics fawn all over us Orthodox, the feelings are... let's just say, less than mutual. Trad Caths are objectively closer, but since we are also Trads, that's not good enough. What's left for us, besides a degree of real affection and appreciation, is to honestly represent each others' positions and honestly engage each other on the issues that still divide us. Orthodoxy is a serious blind spot of yours. I believe you have unwittingly succumbed to caricature and JT Chick-level soundbites. I started to provide examples, but will honor my commitment not to flood you in the context of this comment section.
CATECHISM should be the number one priority. You'll never join Protestant sects if you know the REAL PRESENCE in the Holy Eucharist and never join Orthodoxy if you believe in the CHAIR OF PETER. Let us not forget, the first Protestants attended Latin Mass.
There seems to be a real confusion around the foundation stone and the cornerstone that surrounds the papacy. No Orthodox is going to disagree that St. Peter is the foundation stone of the Church. But St. Peter is not the cornerstone of the Church, Jesus is. So what's the difference between the two stones? They are obviously architectural terms, so when constructing a building, the foundation stone is the first stone to be laid. This stone is usually placed in one of the four corners hence the confusion with 'cornerstone'. St. Peter can't be the cornerstone, because there are three other stones that are laid in the three other corners, and all four of the stones take in an equal place, with the difference that the foundation stone was the first to be laid. First among equals, as is how the Orthodox have always approached St. Peter.
But what is this cornerstone then? The cornerstone, or the capstone, is the stone which the builders rejected. It therefore cannot be the foundation stone, because how are you to build something if you can't lay down your first stone? In church architecture, the capstone, or 'caput anguli' is the last stone, usually laid at the top of the central dome of the church. Since Jesus is the stone which the builders rejected, He is the cornerstone, and this central part of the dome is precisely the place where we see Christ Pantocrator represented in image in both Orthodox and Catholic churches. Consider Ephesians 2:19-21 "19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord."
Here we see clearly that the apostles (not just St. Peter) are the foundation of the Church, and Christ is the head. The raising up of the foundation stone to place it in the capstone is a dangerous move contrary to the architecture Jesus has laid out for his Church. It is not surprising that Luther, in his revolution, placed himself in the capstone, gathering stones to build his own church, appointing priests even though he had no authority (as he was not ordained). The capstone became the stumbling stone from Matthew 21:44 "Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces", which is what happened in the western church. Consequently, the position of the monarch as the capstone of the nation became more and more problematic. Then Napoleon crowned himself Emperor, without spiritual authority.
I am not advocating for you to leave your roman catholic churches. Pray, instead, that the patriarch of Rome might do what is right by God.
there's another option: the Eastern Catholic Churches which follow different rites than the Roman but are still in communion with the Roman Catholic Church in that they accept its dogmas and recognize papal primacy.
Does the eastern catholic church actually accept the doctrine of rome? Saint Photios the Great, Saint Gregory of Palamas, Saint Mark of Ephesus who were all stalwart defenders of Orthodoxy are canonized Saints and commemorated in the eastern catholic divine liturgy. Also eastern catholic churches don't say filioque. They also accept the essence energy distinction of Saint Gregory of Palamas, which flies in the face of created grace theology which is essential to catholic ecclesiology.
Anyone looking to stomp on the SSPX right now please refer to an earlier comment made by user "silkmechanical" : "Brian, I promise no one from the SSPX chapel was at your church poaching you, I was at your FSSP mass the Sunday after the Motu Proprio dropped. Some of us go to the FSSP when the Society is not in town, myself included. It was likely someone who goes to the SSPX who happened to be at FSSP mass that week just talking to people after mass. Just saying."
God bless the SSPX and Marcel Lefebvre who restored the Catholic faith! We would not be here without that great man! Pray for his canonisation.
Good analogy, you cannot reinvent tradition. I feel like that's what our Pope is trying to do.
When the Church withheld the chalice from the laity (which the Church had the authority to do) one could have made that same charge. Even more so because the practice of giving the chalice to the laity was there from the beginning. The Pope has the authority to change and reform the Mass. Pope’s have done it before, including abolishing rites.
The NO mass is valid and any Catholic can go to the Mass and receive our Lord Jesus Christ and worship him.
SSPX are valid and Catholic so I don't get them being mentioned along with the Orthodox etc
There is no such thing as the Eastern Orthodox Church. There is the Eastern rite and Western rite of the Orthodox Catholic Church. The Western Rite is the faith before the West went into schism from the church that Christ Himself founded. The Sarum rite is the real traditional Latin Mass not the much later practice from the council of Trent which was nearly as destructive as the Protestant reformation in terms of getting rid of rood screens. If you really want the Mass of the ages you need to be Western rite Orthodox. The Roman rite has links to the real Mass of the ages but is a shadow of it that only came about 500 years ago. Hardly old. Return to the church that Christ founded and is rooted in the pre-schism rites. For those who are interested in learning more about the Western Rite of the Orthodox Catholic Church in the British Isles please look up the Society of Saint John the Wonderworker.
God bless you all.
The Sarum Rite was introduced to England after the Norman Conquest and is very likely to have included the filioque from the start. You would need to go back to before 680 to find the sort of Western Rite Orthodox Holy Sacrifice that you might have in mind. The Novus Ordo Missae minus the filioque might actually be the best candidate. Isn't this just religion as a hobby?
this is Brian's weakest ever video, they're normally really good. i'm TLM Catholic and considering Orthodoxy (thanks to pope Francis' hatred of the Catholic Faith), after this video my interest in Orthodoxy is stronger than ever
@@Edward-so6by 100% agree, we have had really bad Popes but the people stayed faithful to the Church. A person who leaves because of a bad Pope is like a spouse who gets divorced because the health of the other deteriorates, or the other loses their job... these are temporary things in many cases, even if not, your vows are to be loyal in sickness and poverty. The Church is alive and it is constantly attacked by the devil as it is the real Church, and when it gets sick, the faithful remain. Also, even St. Peter, the first Pope, made mistakes and St. Paul had to exhort him. Popes are humans like everyone else, but it is the position that they hold that is infallible, there will always be a Vicar of Christ, a Pope, until He returns. Good or bad, but there will be a Pope, and the Church will not perish even if it gets attacked from its core.
Wonderful sharing on what is Tradition and how important it is for a true Catholic. Thank you. Michael Peria from India
I don't know why you are throwing SSPX in with Eastern Orthodoxy. SSPX has faculties from the Pope and Bishop Fellay sits on the Roman Rota. You can meet your obligation by going to Mass at an SSPX. They are a bonafide Roman Catholic Traditionalist community.
@C Palamist theology is heretical. Stick to St. Thomas Aquinas.
@C This is correct.
The Roman Church accepts Palamism.
Shit that never happened for $100
It’s not poaching, the EO doesn’t poach. For many RCs banning the LM was the last straw.
The SSPX is not a different religion. People there are Catholics and will not ask you to "convert" to anything but Catholicism. If it weren't for the SSPX you would have never experienced the Latin Mass even once in your life and wouldn't even be talking about it in this video...food for thought.
Your understanding of Orthodox ecclesiology as a "temporal" reality" and your notion of communion being based solely on an imperial/governmental/bureaucratic model of total Petrine domination shows both your lack of understanding of Orthodoxy or of Roman Catholic history.
I had the same thoughts. It's a geopolitical analysis. It can be summed up as "the spanish empire conquered the aztecs, incans and filipinos. Therefore, Roman Catholicism true, Orthodoxy not". No mention of failure in Japan, mostly because the spanish and portuguese could not militarily take it.
Were he a muslim, he would argue as many muslims do: "we're the fastest growing and soon we'll be #1, therefore, we have the truth".
In the end, It's a fleshly, temporal analysis.
Karl Keating does a great job explaining this unfortunate phenomena in the Catholic Herald titled “A slippery slope: When Catholics follow their reason straight out of the Church”.
Yeah, the Eucharist keeps me in Holy Mother....face palming and embarrassed and frustrated..... But as long as the source and summit is still there she got me.
Isn't a FSSPX a true manifestation of catholic tradition? 🤔🤔🤔
Yes, it is.
You should all come home to Orthodoxy. We will be here standing firm while you guys keep trying to figure out a loop hole for your Traditional Latin Mass.
You do realise that the Orthodox Church is a valid apostolic Church founded by Christ himself as well? Their sacraments are just as valid as Roman Catholicism.
"To me it seems like mother Teresa proselytizing to people at a state of weakness and distress is sign that her Catholic position was weak and that she recognized that only in such a wretched state could her potential converts be tricked into accepting the Catholic religion." What is the difference between this argument and the one you're making about the Orthodox?
Mother Theresa did not try to convert. In fact she was criticized for it.
Christ says we must pay special attention to the poor, but preach to all.
I think Brian's point is that Orthodox rely on relatively insignificant issues in order to bait and switch us into schism.
They say we have bad liturgy, therefore come join our good liturgy...and btw renounce the rock of the Church.
You see? If it was Eastern Catholics that would make more sense.
Whereas St. Theresa was preaching to the same children she took care of already and who saw the light of Christ in her.
I convert you to be a better Hindu, a better Christian, a better Catholic, a better Sikh, a better Muslim. When you have found God, it's up to you to do with him what you want.”
St. Mother Teresa
What a great women. I 100% agree with her.
@@loveandmercy9664 i dont think that was the best thing she couldve said
"The Christians of the nascent Church called each other “brothers”. This spiritual and Christ-centered fraternity is deeper than natural kinship. For Christians, however, brothers and sisters are not only members of the Church, but all peoples. The Word of God has taken on human nature and united everything in itself. Just as all human beings are God's creation, so all have been included in the plan of salvation. The love of the believer has no boundaries and limits. In fact, it embraces the whole of creation, it is “the burning of the heart for the whole of creation”
Patriarch Bartholomew
I appreciate Mr. Holdsworth's perspective, but Rome is reaping the fruit of Pius IX's ultramontanism at Vatican I. Dollinger knew the absurdity of Papal Infallibility but was unjustly denounced and excommunicated. Schaff rightly said "he knew too much church history to believe in the absurdity of Papal Infallibility". Also, we have positive claims in the Reformed faith (i.e. the Doctrines of Grace). The origin of the term "Protestant" has nothing to do with "protesting the Pope," but the minority of Lutheran electors at the 2nd Diet of Speyer in 1529, protesting the decision of the Emperor to ban Martin Luther, his teachings in the Empire, and the promotion of the evangelical faith throughout the Holy Roman Empire and beyond.
This is very confusing 😕 I am Catholic and attend a Byzantine Catholic Ukrainian Church. We are loyal to Rome and do not contradict as you describe. We are Catholic so please clarify because as a fellow Catholic your making an argument for dividing the Catholic church. If I am wrong in how I understood you then correct me please . The boundaries and boarders are confusing as well..... again the Byzantine Catholics are encouraged to perform evangelism and study apologetics
I have attended both mass and liturgies and am very clear on ' tradition ' and the Catholic Byzantine litergy is apostolic and accurate. And...During covid we were NEVER made to put the eucharist in our hands . The fact that the Ukrainian Catholics held onto their faith and traditions during the most oppressive communist government is a testimony to the power of the Catholic faith . No matter how they tried to wipe out the one true faith it did not work . We are in times of Christian prosecution and uniting as Christians is the only answer . Of course I wish everyone would embrace the Catholic church.
Byzantine Catholics are CATHOLIC
Yes, the Eastern Catholics (Including Byzantine Ukrainian Catholics) are no doubt Catholics, though the arguments the video poster are not directed at the Eastern Catholics nor their Ecclesiology, which while on the surface has many things in common with the Orthodox, it actually has substantial differences.
However these differences are not noticeably different for an average churchgoing layman.
While on the surface it seems that the Eastern Catholics are just as ethnonational as the EO, you don't see issues such as patriarchs excommunicating each other even in the 21st century leading the laity in disorientation as to where to get the sacraments or to whom to pledge allegiance to.
In case of traveling the Eastern Catholics, they can attend any other of the rites and receive the sacraments without problems. So even though they are mostly left on their national communities, they are not restricted to them.
Nor are there strange three marriage rules in Eastern Catholicism like the Orthodox have.
Let us not forget that the Catholic faith in is entirety is born out of a mixture of Western and Eastern thought. For instance the Eastern fathers are frequently cited in the Catechism and there is no doubt that their tradition is valid.
The issue with "tradition" and "divisiveness" currently seen in the Western Church, is indirectly a result of the heresy of Modernism and people who are straying from traditional faith and morals, which they want to "innovate" even though human nature and behavior hasn't changed in all the centuries only technology and societies have.
So the Modernists (Many of which are clergy and Bishops in high positions) want to wage war on the traditionalists seeing them as "rigid" and stuck in the past. While they are in fact only following the traditional Catholic faith as it always has been... Or at least it is this way for all those who know their theology well enough to know that the old teachings of morality abide on the Natural Law, with all the philosophical arguments backing it. And that God hasn't changed the teachings on the faith either, in fact with every worthy of belief apparition that Our Lord or Our Lady have been in they confirm the traditional faith and dogmas.
People who know what the official documents of the Church actually say also know that all types of liturgical abuses are forbidden and that having more than one formula for the sacraments is not something that should cause division as the matter of the sacraments and sacramentals is the same.
People who want to suppress the Latin Mass have their own agendas, perhaps some are Modernists, perhaps some fear schism, perhaps it's moral issues of some. Many bishops found out that during the pandemic people began to switch over to the Latin Mass and they are not happy with that. Instead of making the Latin Mass more easily available across more parishes seeing that people liked it, they instead saw it as a threat to their agendas whichever they might be (Not to mention that the Traditional Communities would receive more money because of this).
And the fact that Traditional clergy usually preach more against the current issues of the Church and moral degradation across the world is considered "divisive" preaching by these Bishops, it's a very complex topic.
I like your definition of tradition. My problem with the Catholic Church is that they have lost many things that the EO still hold on to from the apostles. To lose foundational things is sad in my eyes.
This is the most lucid, most authentic, most profound, most solid discussion about the heart core of Catholicism and why, in all those crisis of the past and the horrible ones of today, the Catholic church STILL remains and FOREVER will remain as the right choice for those who prefer the Autheintic Church of Jesus Christ God Incarnate!! Thank you!!
The only way I'd go E.O is if TLM is banned in my state. Liturgical abuse is becoming too much to cope these days.
Well, Pope Francis did restrict the Latin Mass and it will roll put to everyone eventually. Restriction is how you can something gradually like the NFA and Hughes amendment did. The Orthodox church has a Western Rite that does the liturgy of Pope St. Gregory the Great. It is the pre-tridentine Latin Mass.
@@TJackson736 Well noted. I don't see a Western Rite in my state. I'd love to visit one eventually.
At a time like this when many Catholics are converting to Orthodoxy I see why you would take time to make a video like this, but it’s important to be fair in the way you present the Church.
First, theres no reason to assume that the orthodox have a weaker stance, and characterize their effort to evangelize as stemming from a malicious place. Orthodox taking the time to evangelize currently is not coming from a place of weakness but out of love. It’s inviting Catholics to experience the richness of our faith, not capitalizing in a rough time. We would simply argue that the current situation you guys are going through is symptomatic of a bigger problem witch is not having the fullness of faith and we invite any Catholic to come experience a fuller worship. It’s love not malice.
Secondly, although you say you’ve looked into orthodoxy I’m surprised you don’t understand it’s most basic functions, and how it is in fact universal. The Orthodox Church functions the same way the early church did and has representatives for different ethnic regions. We simply have preserved this aspect of the early church better. Arguing that a Russian orthodox is in a different church than a Greek Orthodox is not accurate at all, that would be like saying a Hungarian Catholic is in a different church than a German Catholic. There’s only an ethnic difference, that’s it.
If the question is about tradition and who has passed down the true faith in a unified manner ask yourself this: how has the universal Catholic church become so fragmented with many different practices and doctrinal fluidity, and the “non universal” Orthodox Church has managed to keep the same teachings and service unchanged. To any objective observer it’s clear that the orthodox have done a much better job in maintaining the universal tradition. Being the second largest Christian body we’ve also done a great job evangelizing, so there’s no issue there. There’s much more I could write. The Truth cannot stay hidden for long, soon everyone will know the Truth of Orthodoxy.
Welcome! Watch Fr Peter Heers, Fr Spyridon Bailey, Fr Josiah Trenham, and compare with Rome.
Welcome Home!
Love xcic 💝💒🎇
And Bojan Bible Illustrated!
Well said and great insight. Thank you Brian Holdsworth
Since you didn’t know which type of orthodox, how do you know they weren’t Catholics of the Byzantine rite
If the pope has always been infallible and supreme, why did the early church hold councils? Why not speak ex cathedra on Arianism, the trinity, and Cristology? The next time catholics would hold one would be 1868 where Papal supremacy and infallibility were defined.
Just because the Pope can speak infallibly in certain circumstances doesn't mean that he knows what to say.
Praise God when someone comes home to The True Church! ☦️
The OrthoBros in the comment section 😴😬
Thanks Brian for this very inspiring video explaining the universality and truth of Catholicism. You are very much a thinking person's Catholic. Thanks for your great witness to the Catholic faith and may God Bless you and your family.
Orthodox catholicism is traditional catholicism - this is why orthodox are traditional catholics - roman " catholicism" is 1000 years younger . Stop using this " eastern orthodox " term- apostolic church doesn't have a geographic position
As an Orthodox Christian I am offended that people would show up uninvited to another church and engage in such activities. I don't like what it suggests. A similar situation happened at my church in Tokyo. A visitor decided to take advantage of our hospitality and used it to try and convert people into Evangelicalism. Thankfully no one was tempted.
Tragically, the Orthodox have gotten Joseph Sciambra as well, but for different reasons! :( Someone needs to share this video with him!
It seems he's going Orthodox, but has he officially converted?
@@t.l.ciottoli4319 That I'm not sure of.
Tragically?
Joseph was repeatedly groomed and abused by gay clergy in his youth and received no validation or justice . That’s the real tragedy
SSPX is not in schism. Pope cannot be obeyed when he is wrong
.
I love the length of this one
"I'm not f*cking leaving!"- Wolf of Wall Street
(1) There is nothing to be said in favour of Catholicism, that cannot be said of other Churches or religions.
(2) Any good in Catholicism, can be found in the SSPX or the Orthodox, without most of Catholicism's flaws.
(3) Catholics cannot with any justice complain of scavenging by Orthos or SSPX, *because that is how the Anglican Ordinariate came into being - through Benedict XVI's "scavenging" of disaffected Anglicans* , when the Church of England was in a commotion a few years ago. So I have absolutely no sympathy for the CC, or for Catholic complaints of (in effect) being treated by the Orthos & SSPX as the then Pope had treated the Church of England.
Don't want to be treated in an unChristian manner by Churches Y and Z ? Fine: then don't deserve that treatment from them, by doing that very thing to Church X, some time previously. "What goes around, comes around". If Catholics acted more graciously to Protestants, maybe the Orthos would act more graciously to Catholics. Catholics are only getting from Orthos the same treatment Catholics all too often dole out to Protestants, Not very pleasant, is it ? So don't treat Protestants like that. But Catholics are not going to learn from the uncomfy treatment Orthos or others give them, They never do, So the old animosities never end.
Good one Brian, well put mate! (as always)
We have picked up so many trad latins at our Orthodox parish lately. This liturgical oppression has made many new Orthodox. Glory to The Triune God!
In schism since 1054! A dead religion since 1054!
@@PaulDo22 yes rome has been in schism for a long time and has been spiritually dead. May they repent and become Orthodox again soon
@@evang7252 The branch is never bigger than than the tree. Orthodoxy is a schismatic sect, a broken branch cut off from the root. I don't even know where a local Orthodox Church is because it is so insignificant in the arch of Salvation History.
@@PaulDo22“ah yes there are more of us so we must be right” isnt an argument. Your “catholic” church acknowledges we have grace, the sacraments and legitimate priesthood so by your own standards we cannot be a “dead religion”. Y’all even recognize Saints like Seraphim of Sarov or Saint Sergius as Saints in heaven despite never being in communion with rome in their lives. So why must we be in communion with people who clearly abandoned the faith of the 7 ecumenical councils when even y’all agree we have grace and Saints who rejected your church lol
@@evang7252 No it's not a of being more of "us". It's the ethnocentric nature of Greek/Russian/Serbian/Blah,Blah,Blah Orthodoxy. As you may have noticed, God did away with ethnocentric religion when he established the New Covenant and removed that kind of exclusive covenant that He once had with the Jews. He didn't move from one ethnocentric religion to another ethnocentric religion. Further, Orthodoxy is dead not because it doesn't have the Sacraments. Rather like the Jewish Faith which is likewise a dead religion, neither Orthodoxy, nor Judaism has a Magisterium. Neither for that matter does Protestantism. So you are in the company of heretics and those who rejected the Messiah. Choose the company you keep wisely.
As an orthodox I find this repulsive, and also I'd like to add one point to your already good and valid points. You yourself have made videos how traditional catholics can be super-toxic, to be honest I have never met a trad-cath who is not toxic, I just know they exist from the internet, and lot of time those people try to find some kind of "fixed catholicism without the pope" in orthodoxy and when thez come to our church they try to bring in and sometimes force catholic views on us, lot of times even ones that were never officialized, lot of times mostly political ideas, and just all together bring in their poison. Most of the times I don't even feel that they really would like to find the most authentic christianity but they attracted to the toxic spects of our tradition, like antismeitism, Russian imperialism and so on, we are having a hard time to tell people that orthodoxy is not that, and then people come because of those things. I myself have left a parish, because we just got more and more post-catholics, and more and more of the older parishoners left because of them, and like every conversation became all about conspiracy theories, far-right politics and whoom and what to hate, also lot of people "corrected" even the priest with catholic canon law and the such. Catholic church please keep your trash to yourself, we don't need people to be interested in orthodoxy who are not even interested in christianity...
Orthodox here. I'm curios, what is the argument for a singular pope rather than a college of Patriarchs?
I think it's the fact (or interpretation) that _just_ St Peter was renamed and given the keys of the kingdom
The Moscow Patriarchate had a successful mission to the Alaskan Natives in the 18th century. These communities exist today. Read the life of Saint Peter the Aleut or St.Herman of Alaska.
ua-cam.com/video/lEgmHRyAXSc/v-deo.html
I'm familiar, but they undertook such efforts in a clear violation of their own ecclesiology.
@@BrianHoldsworth How did it violate othodox ecclesiology? I have not heard that before, are you saying that the othodox church is against evangelism? Or was it just discouraged at the time by some bishop's? I am just curious, I have not heard that before
@@Polarbeardueck I make the argument on the video.
@@Polarbeardueck it does not violate Orthodox ecclesiology in any way. Mr. Holdsworth seems to have little to no knowledge of what Orthodox Christians actually believe and teach. He seems to interpret Orthodoxy through a Catholic lens. Orthodox Christianity has always been missions focused. The Slavs received the Faith and the Scriptures (and orthography) from the Greeks. The Russians brought the Faith to the Alaskan natives. Orthodoxy is currently booming in Africa.
If he were aware of the Orthodox missions to Alaska he would not have used the Moscow Patriarchate in his example.
Despite some of the disasters which arose out of the 2nd Vatican Council it is wrong to say that the novus ordo mass is wrong. It was originally supposed to be conducted in Latin but this fell away when the native language option was allowed. Both rites novus ordo and vetus ordo are valid forms in the Catholic Church.
The vetus ordo (or TLM) mass however, is more efficacious for a few different reasons.
I take moderate issue with your corporation analogy. I think you are presenting a strawman by unnecessarily maligning the motivations behind EO and SSPX and their conversion efforts - they aren't showing up at RC churches because they are sleezy, used-car salesmen peddling their specific brand of Christianity that they just so happen to work for. They are showing up because they sincerely believe their position is the True one and the conventional RC position is false on a few essential points - I think it's fair to say that, provided they are sincere in their conviction, then it is a deeply necessary act of charity to find opportunities to evangelize whenever and however they present themselves - I think anyone who has seriously devoted themselves to missionary work would agree, especially if salvation is at stake. All the Franciscans and Jesuits who died in obscure parts of the world of evangelizing come to mind - do you honestly believe they never made use of calamities that befell non-believers as an opportunity to evangelize? In ancient times, when pagans were dying of famine, plague, war or whatever other tribulations beset them did the saints suddenly shut their mouths, refusing to share the Gospel?
Evangelization is a core injunction of Christ to his apostles - after all, it is the essence of what it means to be an 'apostle' (messenger) - and being apostolic is the essence of tradition in the authentic sense you suggest. We who call ourselves Christians are only interested in that which was handed down from the Father to the Son and what the Son handed down to his apostles (Matthew 11:27) and what the apostles handed down to yet more apostles across the ages - all of that as opposed to the traditions of men. The question that lies between the denominations is what precisely was handed down.
If it's not obvious, I am Eastern Orthodox myself. All the same, it is clear to me that many EO faithful have confused apostolic tradition with mere traditionalism, but that in of itself does not mean the EO position is false, only that their is authentic EO rooted in authentic apostolic tradition and less-than authentic EO rooted in cultural tradition. But, on this point, is there any essential difference between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox communities as a whole? There will be always be a tangible difference in word and deed between nominal Christians and authentic Christians, no matter the denomination. Brian, I respect you and watch your channel because of your sincere belief and devotion to the core of Christianity - but you are in error upon the axiom that the church is built on the foundation of Peter and that this is what Christ established. This axiom is not substantiated in history, tradition or scripture. That rock of the Church is Christ for "The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone" (Matthew 21:41-43) and each subsequent stone is laid according to the cornerstone. This is how ancient building were built - you started with the cornerstone to orient all the other stones of the structure. Christ is this orienting cornerstone of the Church. That's why Paul writes "19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.…" (Ephesians 2:20) It really doesn't make sense to make the chair of Peter the cornerstone by which the building of the Church is fitted together if you actually bother to think about these astounding words of Saint Paul. Peter is just another stone laid beside the cornerstone that is Christ which is probably why Peter himself wrote "4 As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men but chosen and precious in God’s sight, 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6cFor it stands in Scripture: “See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” Is Peter saying that he is the 'chosen and precious' cornerstone here? If Peter isn't the cornerstone, how can we a say he is the "rock" upon which the Church is built? Unless, of course, Peter is the bedrock upon which the stones are laid. Is Christ then a stone that rests on the rock of Peter?
Sure, there is the Holy Spirit to guide Peter and his successors, but is that unique to Peter? Was it only Peter that received the Spirit at Pentecost? Can you really say something is authentically apostolic just because the Pontiff of Rome and his magisterium gives it the rubberstamp? From my perspective, it seems Roman Catholics can never quite agree when the charism of infallibility is present or not - they can never quite agree on which papal statement is binding or not - there is always the struggle for interpretation and always the need for additional statements from the papal office which requires yet more interpretation and debate. To me it just begs the questions, what sort of clarity does the papal office really bring? Where is the order and peace of the Holy spirit flowing through this office when there is so much constant dispute and dissension?
The great irony of the RC church today is that the people like you, Brian - that is to say those that cleave to the authentic traditions of Catholicism - or to put another way, those who take their faith the most seriously - are the most at odds with a magisterium that for a few generations now seems to have become obsessed with constant renovation and "relevance." Eastern Orthodoxy has no magisterium with which to renovate and no capability of becoming relevant according to modern values. It cannot have a Vatican II because there is no central authority by which to call a council. Orthodoxy cannot and will not adapt - it lacks that sort of temporal, organizational strength that the Roman Catholic Church has. It just stubbornly remains whatever it is by the Grace of the Spirit that guides it - the same spirit that gave it 7 councils - no more and no less. Without the Holy Spirit it would have faded into oblivion long ago for as it is written ”'My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weakness , so that the power of Christ may rest in me" 2 Corinthians 12:9
I love the Roman Church. It is my preference, but I do not believe it is true, and therefore I am Orthodox. I am Orthodox because it is True and not my preference, and on that point, your logic is sound, Brian, and we are in complete accord. I will end by saying I pray God blesses you and all Catholics who are faithful to Christ and I pray that the magisterium repents of its intolerance to those who love the Latin Church the most.
Is it fair to say Vatican 1 and Vatican 2 structures the church to disregard the catholic liaty?
You put this so well! I like listening to you as you explain things in a balanced and easily understandable way. I would really like to hear what you have to say about the various catechisms.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. If all the good Catholics leave for greener pastures, then there will be no good Catholics left.
I am currently an enquirer to Orthodoxy. The history of the Pope's, and multiple roman church rulings is why I can't be roman catholic. The roman church has in turns forbidden ownership of the Bible, forbidden translation of the Bible into common languages, and literally killed people for doing such, among other issues. I love many things about the roman church, but there are a few I can't look past.
I think the problem is this: while the reasoning is superficial (the Papacy takes out the Latin Mass) it does highlight the problem of Roman Catholicism (a monarchial Papacy, which is alien to the first centuries of the Church). If they don't move from the first point to the second, they'll basically go back to Roman Catholicism anyway.
This Canuck gets it, faith in Canadians restored (at least some anyway).
Never heard of Orthodox Christians doing sheep stealing, or this type of evangelism. Saying that, myself I have been looking more into Eastern Orthodoxy. More and more I feel the communion with Rome is being severed not by us in the pews, but by the lack of clear teaching from our Bishops and the current pontifcate. Makes one to want to look deeper into the reasons behind the great schism. One that came into the Catholic Church from a protestant background I'm starting to feel like I'm still being pulled by the Holy Spirit to dig deeper for the truth.
May we all pray to The most Holy Father, in the name of the One-"Yechied" and only begotten Son and Holy Spirit to restore guidance to the children and of Theos and teach us His Logos For the Father and the Son are Echad-One! Yah bless and may we restore Byzantium. With help from the blessed Theotokos and the guidance of the Church-who is the body and Bride of Christ Who Is is Head of the Body of the Church.
Hey Brian, I'd love your thoughts on this (fyi I grew up in the tlm communities and love that liturgie but still left them to follow Christ more radically). The tlm supports, in it's essence, the ecclesiology from Trent. Holy mother church has shed us, through VII, beautiful lights on ecclésiologie. And so the tlm, in of it's self, pushes towards the ancient vision (wich it had become clear was in desperate need of reform) and tends to push away the treasures the Holy spirit gave through VII. In my humble opinion the problem is that the Tlm is, de facto, entering in competition with the novus ordo; and so there is then naturally a push to go back to older ecclesiology and to abandon the developments God has given.This is unhealthy. It's not necessarily in the peoples intention but each liturgy expresses it's counsil's ecclésiologie. Of course there are liturgical abuses, and widespread tasteless liturgies . I wish that the new tlm wave would be more oriented towards obtaining the ordinary form, in latin and ad orientem, with the adapted gregorian chant from Solemes for example, (all that would probably need some push from tlm people and bishops). Then they would authentically serve Mother church and I'm sure tensions would be elevated: the problem is not so much with latin, or chants or orientation you know!
um, antioch and istanbul exist. these epipscopal seats are not based on temporal reality of empires.
Eastern orthodox here, and big fan of your work... I'm probably going to sit this video out lol
So call me a weird person, but I am a lutheran protestant (the believing kind of lutheran, not unbelieving). Pope Francis banning the Latin Mass made me very, very angry. I had been going to a Latin mass a few times for reasons that i was not quite sure, but going to mass I was. I don't quite know what to think now, but I am currently exploring catholicism and growing in my deep appreciation for the reverent liturgical tradition of the church.
Pope Francis didnt ban Latin Mass
@@bernardokrolo2275 No he did not overtly, he just made its continued practice dependent on the permission of the local bishop, barred local bishops from establishing new TLM oratorios without permission from Rome, barred allowing new priests from saying TLM without permission from Rome, and advised bishops that TLM should not be said in any normal parish. (I might have gotten one of those points mixed up, corrections freely accepted: ill edit this post if it contains inaccuracies).
Interesting surname
@@ericlefevre7741whit another word he didnt ban LM..by the way..read document..that is what we catholic do..english is nit my first leanque whic is obvious but i read motupropry on my leanque ...Pope didnt ban LM...i would even dare say that real issue is nit directly abouth liturgy ..issue is Vatican II..whic is obviuos for someone who is catholic like i said
God bless you for trying to listen and let God lead you. I don’t know if I would be open to becoming Protestant so I can imagine how hard it must be. Prayers to you. The problem with all this Latin Mass drama, which is super sad and unfortunate, is it can take us off our game. The devil is very cunning. Even though I love the ordinary form of the mass I am very upset about the Pope’s recent actions and unfortunately I let it distract me - ughhh.
I'm not leaving. The Church is far greater than my lifetime. It is the Church which Jesus founded and His Bride.
The Ark of the New Covenant without which there is no salvation.
@@paxvobiscum9859 not scriptural
@@Wgaither1 By whose interpretation? Yours? The Church, as the Body of Christ, has authority... you, as a lone wolf, do not.
@@Wgaither1 who compiled the canon of Scripture? Hint the Holy Catholic Church!
@@Wgaither1 you should probably reread Sacred Scripture, then.