after years wrestling with every kind of patchbay (Bantam Long Frame, TT, DB25, Punch block, TRS) i will argue that the best solution is 1/4" TRS. Buying cables is the cheapest and building custom is easier, cheaper and faster than any other format. not needing any adapters to directly input gear into your bays is fantastic. On top of that, 1/4" bays are always less expensive than TT or DB25. TT cables are needlessly expensive and DB25 is a total hassle to repair or build. TRS connection is absolutely as solid or solid enough. Every other format is a waste of money UNLESS you just do not have space and have to use TT for space saving. Other than that... TRS is the best. Learn to make TRS cables and you will save 1000's of dollars on Patchbay and cables over the years. I'll never go back.
I wonder why Bantam didn't become the norm instead of 1/4" since it was used early on for the phone systems. It would have been better to be the standard because of it's smaller size, but since 1/4" won the standards race there is no going back now.
@@Cpt_Adama Price. Spec Bantam TT for Telephone were brass. they are expensive to produce and expensive to buy. Be cool though, that nice click of seating a TT would feel pretty good going into guitars and pedals.
Barry reminds of my instructor at local community college in 2008 when I was doing recording arts ; he brings all the cables to the class and you have to name them and its use all during the quizzes and exams ; nobody misses D-25 of course 😂
Maybe I'm bucking the "norms", but I've always found that half-normal has such an inherent advantage over full-normal -- namely providing an extra path for the output signal -- that I practically never need full normal connections on my patchbay. If, on rare occasions I may need to physically break the input signal on a half-normaled connection. that signal can be effectively disabled or muted any number of ways, i.e. via the outboard gear or preamp, or the DAW (by not arming a track to record the preamp signal).. or in very rare instances simply by patching a "dummy" cable to that input jack. And, since my typical use case (when the effect isn't already normalled into the path) is patching a preamp output into an alternate outboard compressor then *back into* the original path, both the in/out points are broken by patch cords, anyway.
Half normal can screw you in broadcast situations and other situations where you actuall WANT to interrupt the default path. I prefer Full normal with a few banks of Mult or a few y patch cables. That is way more flexible.
Tbh I switched to flock audio from my old patchbays and it’s honestly worth every last cent. When you rent your studio out to folks, they always take a minute to figure out the patch bay no matter where in the world. You don’t need patch cables or any of that. I hope other companies follow with this
Those are kinda a joke to me unless all your connectivity is distant and you need network to change patches. 2 grand for 32 point patchbay is hilarious to me if the patchbay is anywhere near the room I'm standing in.
Great info!!!!!..... On the Switchcraft 6425 for a non-normalled patchbay setup with only two options for grounding one option being vertically strapped and the other option being isolated in your opinion which ground option would be best?.....I am not using a mic tie line or trying to pass phantom power..... Just the in and out of each piece of gear (compressors) vertically and the mic pre out on one channel and the interface in on one channel........
Are your patch panels located in a different room or something? The only advantage I can see to Flock is switching at great distance over network. When I see Flocks mounted like 8' away from mix position it absolutely cracks me up. $2000 for 32 points is absurd if can physically reach out and touch your parch bays.
I have a 64-point flock and I'm using every point. It's very convenient for my workflow, though I get it might not be for everyone! To give you more of an idea, I use my Flock patch bay because it easy to switch between tracking, mixing, and mastering modes without having to manually reconfigure connections. I have five preamps; two Neve Portico II channels, two Vintech X73Is, and an Avalon, not to mention UA Unison. When I’m in a mastering setup, I send my eight interface outputs from my Apollo x8p: two channels for drums bus, two for instruments bus, two for vocals bus, and two for FX bus. I can easily insert my outboard gear (things like my EL8 Distressor pair, EQ, SSL Fusion and Bus+, my preamps in line mode, etc.) into those channels. I can just drag and drop them into the various buses and save the configuration for future sessions. The signal path is then routed through the Dangerous D-Box+ for Analog Summing back to a stereo master which I then run into a Neve MBP before going through Dangerous AD+ conversion. I have similar flexibility on the tracking side of my workflow with my pres in front with whatever compression, eq, etc. I want to apply on the way in. Most of my mixing I do ITB these days, but for tracking and mastering, this setup is great! It all adds up to a streamlined, efficient workflow that gives me maximum flexibility. I'd love to upgrade to a larger Flock, but as you pointed out, it's not cheap!
Would you feed your mic signals in the patchbay, or how do you match mics and mic pres? And how would you handle it in a two room studio? Love your content 🫶🏽
Yes my mic preamps are through my patchbay. For tracking in a separate room, that covers a lot of varied suggestions. Tracking a drum set, or just vocals, I would recommend different options for each one as an example.
same as line. My mic preamps inputs all terminate to TRS at patchbays and those normal through the wall to the XLR panel so certain XLR default to certain preamps, but can be overpatched if needed. Phantom works fine through any balanced patchbay.
So: if I only have a few channels worth of outboard gear, I might also hook up all my outboard gear to ins and outs of say a ferrowfish pulse and route everything through my RME total mix and avoid a patchy altogether? Or am I missing something?
Hi Barry great video but i have a question about normalling. You mentioned in your total mix fx video that you can send say for example a mic to a preamp and then say a compressor after that using TMfx's routing, do i then need to use patch cables as well? I have my gear setup in normalling mode.
No, the advantage of using a patchbay is to avoid multiple conversions. Every time you route something in TotalMix it goes through additional conversion.
I hope you are well prepared and safe during the storm. I'm not sure how vulnerable you are in your area but it looks like it's being hyped as a big hit to the state.
@@BarryJohns But it could be great for testing order and outboard devices on tracks then when your happy with it hardwire the chain with a normal patch bay
In general, something like an outboard reverb unit that will always be used as an insert, with nothing behind or in front of it, is a good candidate for skipping the patchbay and hooking up directly to the interface.
Flock Audio makes sense again for those who really need it but like you mention comes w/$$$. Other wise "SWITCHCRAFT" easier to get to the Switch Modes.
as long as everything's connected *before* turning on phantom power, and then turning off phantom power before disconnecting any cables, you'll be in good shape. That said, patching and unpatching powered mics while phantom power is running is BAD news, and I don't trust myself to be perfect.. therefore I never wire my condenser mics into my patchbay.
@@randyk1919 agreed, its very easy to forget you had phantom on if you are looking at the patch bay rather than the console and repatch to something else.
I like a lot your videos, Barry. But I feel this one was too long for what is at stake. I believe the whole concept can be explained in something like 5m and for the rest it would be useful to describe better the typical situations you could choose to opt for normal/half-normal/non-normal (like the hardware inserts issue that is not evident, at least for me). Of course this is only my personal opinion, that I express because I value your interventions very much. Cheers.
I intentionally over simplified it. I have videos on the subject already and still kept getting lots of questions. This was as simplified as I could do it.
My mic signal goes through 3 and sometimes 4 patchbays before it even hits the Interface. Mic > XLR panel > Patchbay > Mic Preamp > Patchbay > Sometimes compressor > Patchbay > AD Converter. If I'm tracking trough my console, I can easily hit at least one or two more Patch points depending on what I'm doing. Even if I am in the box there is still one more patchbay between the outputs of my DAW and my console, Monitor Controller, and studio sends. Everything in my studio is overpatchable. It's fantastic.
I've had it with DB25 Patchbays. They are overpriced & the 25 pin connector is adding another layer of contact. Solder type patch bays are dirt cheap on the used market.
Very view people can properly use a soldering iron. Advantage of DB25 is that you can secure it without worry something will come unplugged, which is a problem I constantly dealt with with 1/4” units.
@@BarryJohnssame here. I have all behringer patchbays, but I got tired of the plugs coming loose in the back. My new interfaces have db25 and that was my first experience with those connections. As a result I am modifying my behringer patchbays with db25 connections on the back. If someone were to make a patchbay with db25 on the back and 1/4” TRS on the front I would have bought them but apparently no one has come out with one.
Hoping you’re well and safe during the hurricane and you and your family are well and safe. Take care.
Very clear explanation. A planning spreadsheet is CRITICAL for sure!!
after years wrestling with every kind of patchbay (Bantam Long Frame, TT, DB25, Punch block, TRS) i will argue that the best solution is 1/4" TRS. Buying cables is the cheapest and building custom is easier, cheaper and faster than any other format. not needing any adapters to directly input gear into your bays is fantastic. On top of that, 1/4" bays are always less expensive than TT or DB25. TT cables are needlessly expensive and DB25 is a total hassle to repair or build. TRS connection is absolutely as solid or solid enough. Every other format is a waste of money UNLESS you just do not have space and have to use TT for space saving. Other than that... TRS is the best. Learn to make TRS cables and you will save 1000's of dollars on Patchbay and cables over the years. I'll never go back.
100% agree, exactly the same here. TT would have saved me some space, but thats it.
amen
I wonder why Bantam didn't become the norm instead of 1/4" since it was used early on for the phone systems. It would have been better to be the standard because of it's smaller size, but since 1/4" won the standards race there is no going back now.
TOTALLY Agreed!👍💯 I use 2x8 TRS snakes 4 my setup -& have been 4 the last 30yrs!😎
@@Cpt_Adama Price. Spec Bantam TT for Telephone were brass. they are expensive to produce and expensive to buy. Be cool though, that nice click of seating a TT would feel pretty good going into guitars and pedals.
Barry reminds of my instructor at local community college in 2008 when I was doing recording arts ; he brings all the cables to the class and you have to name them and its use all during the quizzes and exams ; nobody misses D-25 of course 😂
Terrific video! Thank you so much sir! Helped me tremendously
Thanks for this very informative video Barry. 🙏 You rock 🤘
Maybe I'm bucking the "norms", but I've always found that half-normal has such an inherent advantage over full-normal -- namely providing an extra path for the output signal -- that I practically never need full normal connections on my patchbay. If, on rare occasions I may need to physically break the input signal on a half-normaled connection. that signal can be effectively disabled or muted any number of ways, i.e. via the outboard gear or preamp, or the DAW (by not arming a track to record the preamp signal).. or in very rare instances simply by patching a "dummy" cable to that input jack. And, since my typical use case (when the effect isn't already normalled into the path) is patching a preamp output into an alternate outboard compressor then *back into* the original path, both the in/out points are broken by patch cords, anyway.
Half normal can screw you in broadcast situations and other situations where you actuall WANT to interrupt the default path. I prefer Full normal with a few banks of Mult or a few y patch cables. That is way more flexible.
Tbh I switched to flock audio from my old patchbays and it’s honestly worth every last cent. When you rent your studio out to folks, they always take a minute to figure out the patch bay no matter where in the world. You don’t need patch cables or any of that. I hope other companies follow with this
Those are kinda a joke to me unless all your connectivity is distant and you need network to change patches. 2 grand for 32 point patchbay is hilarious to me if the patchbay is anywhere near the room I'm standing in.
Great info!!!!!..... On the Switchcraft 6425 for a non-normalled patchbay setup with only two options for grounding one option being vertically strapped and the other option being isolated in your opinion which ground option would be best?.....I am not using a mic tie line or trying to pass phantom power..... Just the in and out of each piece of gear (compressors) vertically and the mic pre out on one channel and the interface in on one channel........
Any sound difference between Redco patchbay and Soundcaft patchbay?
I've switched over to flock... its good stuff!
Are your patch panels located in a different room or something? The only advantage I can see to Flock is switching at great distance over network. When I see Flocks mounted like 8' away from mix position it absolutely cracks me up. $2000 for 32 points is absurd if can physically reach out and touch your parch bays.
I have a 64-point flock and I'm using every point.
It's very convenient for my workflow, though I get it might not be for everyone!
To give you more of an idea, I use my Flock patch bay because it easy to switch between tracking, mixing, and mastering modes without having to manually reconfigure connections. I have five preamps; two Neve Portico II channels, two Vintech X73Is, and an Avalon, not to mention UA Unison. When I’m in a mastering setup, I send my eight interface outputs from my Apollo x8p: two channels for drums bus, two for instruments bus, two for vocals bus, and two for FX bus. I can easily insert my outboard gear (things like my EL8 Distressor pair, EQ, SSL Fusion and Bus+, my preamps in line mode, etc.) into those channels. I can just drag and drop them into the various buses and save the configuration for future sessions. The signal path is then routed through the Dangerous D-Box+ for Analog Summing back to a stereo master which I then run into a Neve MBP before going through Dangerous AD+ conversion. I have similar flexibility on the tracking side of my workflow with my pres in front with whatever compression, eq, etc. I want to apply on the way in. Most of my mixing I do ITB these days, but for tracking and mastering, this setup is great!
It all adds up to a streamlined, efficient workflow that gives me maximum flexibility. I'd love to upgrade to a larger Flock, but as you pointed out, it's not cheap!
Would you feed your mic signals in the patchbay, or how do you match mics and mic pres? And how would you handle it in a two room studio? Love your content 🫶🏽
Yes my mic preamps are through my patchbay. For tracking in a separate room, that covers a lot of varied suggestions. Tracking a drum set, or just vocals, I would recommend different options for each one as an example.
same as line. My mic preamps inputs all terminate to TRS at patchbays and those normal through the wall to the XLR panel so certain XLR default to certain preamps, but can be overpatched if needed. Phantom works fine through any balanced patchbay.
So: if I only have a few channels worth of outboard gear, I might also hook up all my outboard gear to ins and outs of say a ferrowfish pulse and route everything through my RME total mix and avoid a patchy altogether? Or am I missing something?
That’s correct
i often use sweetwater, so in the future i will try to use the link.
by the way i very much appreciate your content and your input.
Hi Barry great video but i have a question about normalling. You mentioned in your total mix fx video that you can send say for example a mic to a preamp and then say a compressor after that using TMfx's routing, do i then need to use patch cables as well? I have my gear setup in normalling mode.
No, the advantage of using a patchbay is to avoid multiple conversions. Every time you route something in TotalMix it goes through additional conversion.
Where do you connect the interface output?
Mine go to the patchbay and are wired Normalled to the speaker inputs that are placed right below it.
I hope you are well prepared and safe during the storm. I'm not sure how vulnerable you are in your area but it looks like it's being hyped as a big hit to the state.
well done
I was thinking can you not use Total Mix with RME as a patch bay?
You can kinda, you will have conversion happening on its each input and output.
@@BarryJohns But it could be great for testing order and outboard devices on tracks then when your happy with it hardwire the chain with a normal patch bay
@@braxal6983 What you described is a more hassle, than just have everything connected properly
In general, something like an outboard reverb unit that will always be used as an insert, with nothing behind or in front of it, is a good candidate for skipping the patchbay and hooking up directly to the interface.
Flock Audio makes sense again for those who really need it but like you mention comes w/$$$. Other wise "SWITCHCRAFT" easier to get to the Switch Modes.
Are you going to make a review of Presonus Quantum HD 8?
I’ve emailed Presonus, guess they don’t like me.
@@BarryJohns Please email them again to make sure.
What If the mic needs phantom power?
as long as everything's connected *before* turning on phantom power, and then turning off phantom power before disconnecting any cables, you'll be in good shape. That said, patching and unpatching powered mics while phantom power is running is BAD news, and I don't trust myself to be perfect.. therefore I never wire my condenser mics into my patchbay.
@@randyk1919 agreed, its very easy to forget you had phantom on if you are looking at the patch bay rather than the console and repatch to something else.
Has anyone here used Ghielmetti multipin patch panels?
I like a lot your videos, Barry. But I feel this one was too long for what is at stake. I believe the whole concept can be explained in something like 5m and for the rest it would be useful to describe better the typical situations you could choose to opt for normal/half-normal/non-normal (like the hardware inserts issue that is not evident, at least for me). Of course this is only my personal opinion, that I express because I value your interventions very much. Cheers.
I intentionally over simplified it. I have videos on the subject already and still kept getting lots of questions. This was as simplified as I could do it.
Just work in the computer!
My mic signal goes through 3 and sometimes 4 patchbays before it even hits the Interface. Mic > XLR panel > Patchbay > Mic Preamp > Patchbay > Sometimes compressor > Patchbay > AD Converter. If I'm tracking trough my console, I can easily hit at least one or two more Patch points depending on what I'm doing. Even if I am in the box there is still one more patchbay between the outputs of my DAW and my console, Monitor Controller, and studio sends. Everything in my studio is overpatchable. It's fantastic.
What about Abby Normal?😂
He's going to be very popular!
Love ya Barry, but the way you organize and explain concepts sometimes gives me conniptions.
Why couldnt you be my dad .. 😔
I've had it with DB25 Patchbays. They are overpriced & the 25 pin connector is adding another layer of contact. Solder type patch bays are dirt cheap on the used market.
Very view people can properly use a soldering iron. Advantage of DB25 is that you can secure it without worry something will come unplugged, which is a problem I constantly dealt with with 1/4” units.
@@BarryJohnssame here. I have all behringer patchbays, but I got tired of the plugs coming loose in the back. My new interfaces have db25 and that was my first experience with those connections. As a result I am modifying my behringer patchbays with db25 connections on the back. If someone were to make a patchbay with db25 on the back and 1/4” TRS on the front I would have bought them but apparently no one has come out with one.
@@craigbrown7929 Is this true?
2:00 Redco is awesome!