Here is a side note you may find interesting. Irish actress Maureen O'Hara was born 1920 in Dublin. During her US naturalization ceremony she was required to renounce "allegiances to foreign monarchs". She refused, informing the clerk and the judge presiding over the ceremony that she is Irish and does not owe any allegiance to a monarch, i.e. the British crown. Eventually, the issue made its way to Congress, which voted to change the wording some twenty-five years after Irish independence. O'Hara took a measure of pride in being instrumental in bringing about that change for the rest of her life.
Honestly, if they ever made a film on Grace O'Malley, Maureen O'Hara would have been PERFECT for the role (she actually played a female pirate once and took sword lessons). Who better to play the role of Ireland's Pirate Queen?
@@lmonk9517 check your dates. she was born in 1920, but the naturalization ceremony I mentioned happened in Jan 1946 Also, if she was in the wrong, one would expect the US government to push back against her position.
Incredible. I find it hard to not be impressed at how factual and not biased this was. As I understand it it is incredibly easy to fall into these pitfalls. Great job.
@@jessealexander2695 I agree, you are such a fantastic presenter of information. I have a various amount of interests that I inform myself on using youtube, history not even being my favorite, but The Great War is my favorite channel on the platform and I’ve recommended you to anybody I’ve ever talked about pre, during and post WW1 to. Keep it up because you and your team are beyond fantastic!
The one thing I always liked about this channel since 2014( 1914) is that it gets facts on both sides. However UA-cams weird policys has prevented these Awsome guys from getting full facts and stories (including old pictures and videos). But they still try their best to give us facts at the best of their abilities without trying to provoke UA-cam. So thanks to all the team. -Long time subscriber.
In my early 20s, I completely understood & empathized with the Anti-Treaty side. Now, close to 50 & with sons who would've had to fight, the Treaty compromises seem rather tiny. Time & parenthood changes us immensely.
@@kb4903 Yes he did kinda- more of a bystander than a solider though. Ireland became the battlefield during the Irish Civil War and his garden and fields would regularly a place of skirmish attacks. Both sides would regularly have cups of tea with him in Galway in his derelict tower talking about the weather and fishing.
"To go for a drink is one thing, to be driven to it is another" Michael collins on the pressure of the talks during the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Thank you to the great war for these excellent and informative videos. Even Irish historians cannot agree on why de Valera didn't go to London leading to much debate and conjecture
De Valera was an American and thats what saved his life after the 1916 uprising when he was captured. He knew that the Brits wouldnt harm him, unlike his IRB / IRA comrades. When the Treaty happened De Valera knew that "the big fella" Michael Collins would probably get elected as Irelands first President. Thats why he walked out of the Dial (Irish Parliament) and brought on the Civil War. Who sent Michael Collins to London for the Treaty negotiations ? DE VALERA. With that Collins was a dead Man walking. How can anyone doubt that De Valera set him up ?
@@Ellemerob Yeah. It was pretty obvious that DeValera was hedging his bets, knowing from his own talks with Lloyd George the previous summer how far the British were prepared to go. Did you know that in school, DeValera supposedly wrote an essay championing monarchism?
de Valera ducked his responsibility and hung Collins out to dry. He basically put a bullseye on Collins back rather than making the hard choices himself!
In all fairness the fact that the British essentially forced the Irish delegation to sign the treaty without time to consult the Irish parliament, or consider other compromises, raises a serious question of democratic legitimacy.
@@EdMcF1 yeah my point was that it was under the duress of war and, more importantly, the unauthorised signature prevented further, and better, negotiations.
The norm is that the main man comes in after negotiations, the brits were more experienced in diplomacy and carried a big gun. It is similar now with Brexit except the EU are shredding the inept UK negotiators.
The troubles specifically refers to the armed struggle of the Provisional IRA in the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. The Irish War of Independence and Civil War would not be referred to as the Troubles
History like this really fascinates me. There are so many world events that history classes in school never have time to cover. Videos like these help bring a wider understanding to the world.
My great grandfather was in the Irish civil war and the war of indipendnce. He was fond of saying in his later years. "I shot better men than the ones who run the country today" It was only when I grew older I realised how right he was.
A very well researched episode by Jesse and the Great War team. No bias to either side and well respected historians used for source material e.g. Green against Green (Hopinkinson, 1988) which is considered the definitive account of the Irish Civil War.
I am seriously thinking of travelling to Ireland to discover this awesome country after following your catchy episodes about Ireland, this one and the latter ones related to the Irish-British conflict 100 years ago. Cheers to Ireland! Cheers to TGW crew!
If you ever do come and are interested in learning more about Irish history, Glasnevin cemetery is an excellent place to start. Most of the names you would have heard about in this video are buried there and there are excellent tour guides as well.
I pledge a Patreon, to The Great War, and to the edutainment, for which it provides, Real Time History, 100 years ago, with enlightening knowledge for all. And the only UA-cam History Channel that gets an oath of allegiance from its viewers
Great video, fun fact: the civil war is not part of curriculum in primary/secondary schools(under 17/18) in Ireland only in 3rd level courses(history etc), I asked my history teacher when in school why it wasn't included and he said it was because it was still too fresh in people's lives, as in one pupils family(grandparents) may have been pro treaty while another's may have been anti treaty, so names/attacks etc might cause issues so it was decided to stop after the war of independence. Note: this was the early 90s so may have changed by now
Because it ruins the Irish Nationalist delusion. If the IRA won then why did they have a civil war over the Treaty? It reveals the central lie of Irish Nationalism.
@@jimmyryan5880 Yes but that's the Shamrock Awakening, the era of the Father Ted generation, it show how far the South has come in the last few decades.
Funnily enough we've just finished this in leaving cert history, might just show my teacher this video And just after getting through the video, it's incredibly well done and factual, and avoids republican bias like most videos on the topic, while providing a very easy to follow narrative, all together, an amazing video on a very misconstrued and little known topic
Erskine Childers, interesting man, worth a episode dedicated to him alone. Check out his novel, "The Riddle of the Sands" considered by some to be the first spy novel.
Amazing that 100 years later this is still the period of history which still defines Ireland and that there is currently another treaty that is being negotiated with Ireland as the focal point
One important fact that this account doesn't mention is that the Ulster Unionists had large militias that were armed to the teeth and it was widely feared that trying to force them to join the Free State against their will would result in a bloodbath that would make the civil war within the Free State look like an afternoon tea party.
@@patriotamerican3426Ulster is a Province of 9 Counties. 6 was given to the British! I can tell you the people of the border did put up a brave resistance in May/June 1922 (The Battle of Pettigo n Belleek in counties Donegal and Fermanagh) but got no support from Dublin. Collins who had been elected MP in Armagh (May 1921) distanced himself from it. As was the way of old Irish people like my grandparents. they never spoke (Collins) his name again n the mention of Childers was met with silence too (English spy they whispered). Sadly imo the men who were the real leaders were all killed in the Rising in 1916.
Northern Ireland is akin to the old Kingdom of Acre, an artificial statelet created with a mind to have a British enclave in perpetuity- like Acre, the sponsoring nations eventually flag and demographic forces subsume it back into it’s neighbors.
@@deathgripskaraoke9351 Yes l get that. But a majority of the people who live there don't see it as an occupation so then is it really. I mean They voted to stay with the UK.
"It's my considered opinion that in the fullness of time, history will record the greatness of Collins and it will be recorded at my expense." - Eamon De Valera
Imagine being a soldier in the Free State Army, when a year or so before you were in the IRA. You were fighting against the very men who had been your comrades and whose success against the Crown had led to the Treaty in the first place. But events and history take some very strange turns. The same deValera who egged on the IRA in the civil war later turned against them as they threatened his own power. They wanted to replace the Free State with the Republic, just as he did in 1922.
Robert Erskine Childer's most famous work as an author (the Riddle of the Sands) was a call to arms against the dangers of German ambitions on the world stage.
Staunch English Unionist to Hardline Irish Republican in a few years. His switch seemed to come after the Boer War. I reckon he saw the concentration camps which changed him.
@@barryb90 don't forget that many British soldiers guarding those camps died of starvation and disease along side the detainees. The causes were poor planning on the part of the British and the Boers cutting the supply lines. Either way it would be enough to change anyone's mind.
@@barryb90 No, he even served in the navy in WW1. During the Treaty negotiations he even tried to prove to the Admiralty that the Treaty Ports were of no value much to their hilarity. Sir Ormonde Winter recalls him breaking into a hissy fit when interviewing him by reminding him to pick up his medal for his service from Buckingham Palace.
de Valera was the ultimate politician: willing to take whatever position he thought would draw the most attention to him. The saddest part of the Irish Civil War is that after he surrendered, de Valera became the harshest critic of those who fought against accepting the treaty, in short, of the people he once supposedly led.
I see him as a Irish Charles De Gaulle- a young innovative revolutionary liberal in his youth, who becomes a rather authoritarian conservative (little c) leader that comes with age.
Where it all went wrong “Having learned from history that all bourgeois movements end in compromise, that the bourgeois revolutionists of today become the conservatives of tomorrow” - James Connolly 1897
Oddy It isn't the first time in irish history this happened back in 1646 during the 11 years war a peace treaty between the Catholic confederacy and the royalist lead to a civil war too
This whole idea of nation-states born in the French and American revolution is the main reason for all the wars after that. Everyone dreamed of a similar idea for their country and nationalism has replaced monarchism to this day. It went from wars against religions and kingdoms to wars against nations and their ideologies, which later became known as Nazism and Communism, which was also in part part of the IRA and the socialist group around James Connolly. I don't want to defend Britain, but rather the idea of a UK or EU as a cosmopolitan construct bringing multiple countries and nations together under one rule, rather than that old 'everyone must fight for their own country' mentality. which comforts me more than these stupid conflicts about a flag or own borders. At least our ancestors wandered throught the world until they found a place to settle. They did not care about these questions and problems nowadays. If someone were to send their DNA to a genetics institute, they would see that their DNA shared the information of many origins and not one nation in particular. We are all connected in one way or another. Don't let any ideologues poison your hearth with their nonsense, they want violence because they want you to free thier way for their success and career, but you end up being just a tool for these charismatic psychopaths
This is an extremely informative video and really important, the topics being covered here are still extremely prevelent in modern Irish society as Civil War politics are still in full swing
You left out, if the Irish Free State Army did not take back the four Courts (main high Court of Ireland) back from the IRA, the British Army who were still in the Phoenix Park with a sizeable force would have acted. Not all of the British Army left. Most of the "British army" in Ireland were actual Irish men which were transferred to the Irish Free state army or the left once WW1 ended. They forced Michael Collins hands, because Michael Collins were running guns to the North via the Four Courts under the British noses. It was the real reason why the IRA took over the Four Courts. There was a ready stash of arms there. That was the start of the Irish Civil war. Collins was trying to buy time with the North actions, but the Civil war became very bitter on both sides as it became very personal.
@@jessealexander2695 You're welcome; he had served in British Naval intelligence during WW1 and before that had used his yacht Asgard to run German rifles into Ireland to arm the Irish Volunteers. Previous to that he had written a spy novel -"The Riddle of the Sands" about a fictitious German plan to invade Britain across the North sea and he would be executed by the Irish Free State during the Civil War for possession of a pistol he had been presented by Michael Collins. His son, Erskine Hamilton Childers, served as 4th President of Ireland, dying in office in 1974.
Very well explained . The Irish were unfortunate to have had a Spaniard imposed upon them who proceeded to cast a long and ominous shadow over Ireland both culturally and economically throughout the 20th century .Indeed the unanswered question , why did he not go to London himself ?
He didn't think he had to. He thought they would come home with something and then they would all vote on it. Dev had already tried to talk to the British but they got nowhere. By the way I have no time for Dev but he was a very intelligent man.
@@christianfreedom-seeker2025Eamonn de Valera wasn’t in power (as Taoiseach) when Ireland left the Commonwealth, John Costello was. And de Valera personally favoured a compromise where Ireland would be a republic, but ‘externally associated’ with the Commonwealth (somewhat similar to the situation Ireland had 1936/7-1949). So no, he was not responsible for ‘Ireland leaving the Commonwealth’.
I think you'll find that the *nine* counties of ulster province are actually majority Catholic when put together, however the gerrymandered artificial borders of *Northern Ireland* were specifically drawn to create a majority protestant region
During the early 1910s, the province of Ulster has a slim protestant majority of around 56% so the first part of your statement is incorrect and the reason why only six counties were included was to increase the percentage if protestants to around 60% which would reduce the power of the Catholic minority. Gerrymandering would be introduced to solidify unionist power in the new state.
It is hart warming to see how the Irish fought for freedom from British Imperialism and won. How voting is going in Northern Ireland it is only a matter of time before the last remains of British Imperialism is kicked out of Ireland.
Robert Childers surname is pronounced Chill Ders. He was executed during the Civil War. His son was elected President of Ireland in 1973 and Childers Granddaughter served as an MEP as recently as 2019
In 1966, de Valera, who had long strived to minimize, even erase Michael Collins' place in Irish history, said the following: “It is my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.” And that expense will never be enough to repay Ireland for the damage de Valera did. Imagine how different things might have been, had not de Valera undermined the treaty and promoted the Civil War. (Not that he did that alone.) I can only imagine how different Ireland's history would have been under Collins' leadership rather than Dev's. Or, had he succeeded in scuttling the Treaty and presided over the brutal crushing of the IRA and Ireland under the full scale war that the Crown would assuredly have executed. What would Dev's legacy be then? As it stands, I can't see Eamon de Valera as anything more than a narcissistic prig who sold out Irish lives in favor of his own jealousy, ego and mania. His actions are those of a man who would rather see his country destroyed than have a man he envied prove more popular and powerful than he, and take his place as the state's leader. Collins kept his life on the line while Dev played celebrity in the country he was born in. Collins always put the Irish people first. De Valera always put himself first.
As an English bloke, I never knew anything about this. All throughout my schooldays in the 1970s & 1980s (when the Troubles in Northern Ireland were at their worst) we were never taught anything about Ireland or the reasons as to why people were getting shot and bombed, how the Troubles began, or anything at all. I imagine it was the same in schools all over the country. It's no wonder that the Irish hate(d) us 🙄
(Also English) Ironically, the overwhelming majority of the population of the plantation in Ulster was by Lowland Scottish people, not English (hence why the Ulster Scots language spoken in NI is a thing, and why the flavour of Protestantism there is Presbyterian, like it traditionally is in Scotland, not Anglican, like in England). So it was more ‘British’ imperialism in respect to Ireland, rather than ‘English’ (not saying the English aren’t to blame either, but the whole thing is more nuanced than that).
I've been wondering, what's better for you guys, watching here or on Nebula? I already pay for the Nebula subscription, so it always feels like I should watch the videos here to add to the numbers.
You’d think they’d have moved on a merged by now given the only major difference I can see from an outside perspective is that Fine Gael don’t despise us Brits quite as much as Fianna Fáil (politically speaking anyway).
When I visited Dublin I stayed right across the street from kilmainham gaol. The jail the English used to imprison and execute many Irish dissidents. We saw the cells of many famous rebels and the courtyard where many were executed. After the treaty operations of the prison fell to the new Irish government. They in turn used it to imprison and even execute their own Irish rebels... Brother killing brother. So sad. Fantastic tour btw. The docent we had was so enthusiastic about history and totally acted the part.
Fantastic video and show how it was at the time. I am looking for some help I have heard that in the Irish brigades in WW1 that after the Easter rising. Many refused to fight and every second man was shot and I was wondering is there any facts to this story?
@@barryb90 Only 70 out of tens of thousands who'd fought and died for Britain, including helping defeat the Easter Risers. The Indian mutiny was actually a much wider affair over conditions, some non Irish soldiers also taking part.
Once correction: The six counties of Ulster were not "mostly" protestant. They had large Catholic minorities and some were 50/50 like Fermanagh and Tyrone
And tragically forced the abandonment of Unionists/Protestants in the Free State who were treated so much worse, being ruled over by those who had murdered their families and considered anti-British racism patriotism.
@@MrLorenzovanmatterho anti-British racism wouldn't exist if there was no anti-Irish racism coming from the UK. Google the Punch magazine picture of John Redmond leading the pigs into a sty and you'll see there is loyal Protestant Ulster trying to run away. Charming how British treat a people who claim they're as British as Finchley.
@@shawnfinnegan64 What? Is that all you've got? Come on, what have I said that is untrue? Come on, WHAT? Come on, you know fine rightly it was all a LIE, Irish Nationalism is ALL A LIE! I known you've been raised to be a bigot and a racist hypocrite in the Catholic church's sectarian apartheid education system but you're actually talking to a Unionist now and hearing the other side of the story. Come on, give it up, give up your prejudice, it's the Shamrock Awakening, embrace the truth. Offer reconciliation to your Unionist brothers and sisters, apologise for your disgusting hatred, don't be PW Botha, be FW De Klerk.
This video is superb, Irish history is as far as I can tell often unfairly overlooked and because of it, there are those who claim to be "experts," in this field and try to make one side of the debate holier than thou. The truth is that Irish History is littered with people doing terrible things, whether it's the British doing nothing to help Ireland during the potato famine (including erecting a very offensive memorial that claims "(...) Britania gave her bounty with her tears and bear this record, though in phrases crude, of England's love and Ireland's gratitude,"), Oliver Cromwell slaughtering the local population of Ireland in the 1640's, the IRA attacking a Remembrance Sunday mass in Northern Ireland, the Easter Rising, the 3 Bloody Sundays in Irish History (Dublin in 1920, Belfast in 1921 and Derry/Londonderry in 1972) and so many others, since I visited Belfast in 2015, I have learned to be neutral in the debate about Irish history
Those of the Irish delegation were really put into an impossible position, and the English Prime Minister knew he had them bent over a barrel at that moment.
Honestly it seems like the treaty was a necessary compromise given the reality of the situation. They got as much as they could under the circumstances. Da Valera was playing a very cynical political game here imo. And he painted a target on Collin’s back for doing the thing that he himself was unwilling to do.
It's also pretty stupid how Michael Collins literally died because some of his own people could not come to terms with the treaty even though Ireland did indeed gain full independence anyways
@@BobPantsSpongeSquare97 The free state was not a independent country, it was a dominion, you had to swear loyalty to the king to get into Leinster house.
@@WangMingGe Those counties viewed themselves as more British than the (mainland) British. Loyalists had their own militias equal to anything the Catholics had in both organisation and violence and it would have been a bloodbath if anyone even tried to force them to join. Even in peaceful 2021, there is still a lot of hate between these groups, and plenty of men have kept their balaclavas.
I am anti-treaty because the treaty was just genius British diplomacy. They got everything they wanted (Ireland is off the Cabinet's desk, a 6 county Northern-Ireland exists and strategic concerns are mooted with treaty ports. Oath too.). This is why I agree that Éamon de Valera should have been negotiating. I am a Monarchist so I would prefer Dual-Monarchy.
Sometimes you've just got to take yes for an answer. The British Empire held all the cards really, being able to destroy the IRA within a couple of weeks without the ceasefire. War-weariness notwithstanding, they had the forces to move around to maintain an indefinite military occupation. The new intake of Republican volunteers were untrained, of debatable moral courage, and could not be armed, with the IRA all but out of ammunition. Collins got the best deal that could be had. De Valera and co. might have preferred to fight a civil war against the Protestants of Ulster, but by rejecting the treaty which protected them, they opted to fight a civil war against fellow Republicans instead. Such are the inflexibilities and extremism of nationalism. When you worship an idol, it cannot be surprising that human sacrifices are demanded.
Not to mention those Protestants in Ulster would have been protected by the British Military. Any attempt by the Irish to forcibly take Ulster would have been a disaster for them.
@@patrickholt2270 Not to mention the inevitable naval blockade that would have taken place. It also wouldn’t help the Irish government that all their main cities are on or very near the coast and those naval guns were quite menacing… It probably wouldn’t have come to that, but the fear would have been there.
@@cobbler9113 The Protestants in Ulster were already heavily armed and didn't need protecting. The ones who needed protecting were the Catholics in Ulster, and it's not clear how much stomach the British Army would have had for fighting Unionists to protect people perceived as disloyal. And as stated in the video the IRA was very weak in Ulster. The likely alternative to partition was a bloodbath and then getting partition anyway.
Pronunciation is spot on. But the real issue was the six counties not the oath. The problem was there were still lots of catholics in the north even though a lot were heading south or over to England. They were facing a lot of violence from the authorities and many were being killed. Neither Dev nor Collins wanted to turn their backs on them. The English leaders and the Irish leaders could have come up with some solution to the refugee crisis and the country is feeling the affects to this day.
Correction: Ulster was not "mostly protestants", this is not an accurate depiction. The Irish had no navy, very little land ownership. Also Irish Catholics has been prohibited from becoming doctors, judges and other senior positions or marry a protestant that worked for Guinness. There was a lot of separatism outside of politics.
A video on the 2nd Samoan Civil War or the Honduran Civil War would be great. The Great War could even lump them together as part of a roundup video of obscure interwar/prewar conflicts.
This series of videos by The Great War gives an excellent overview of the Irish rebellion against British rule from Easter 1916 to 1921 and I look forward to future videos about the history of Ireland in the 1920s (and beyond?). However, I think the video on Ireland in early 1918 was substandard; perhaps the Great War Team could revise it.
Here is a side note you may find interesting. Irish actress Maureen O'Hara was born 1920 in Dublin. During her US naturalization ceremony she was required to renounce "allegiances to foreign monarchs". She refused, informing the clerk and the judge presiding over the ceremony that she is Irish and does not owe any allegiance to a monarch, i.e. the British crown.
Eventually, the issue made its way to Congress, which voted to change the wording some twenty-five years after Irish independence. O'Hara took a measure of pride in being instrumental in bringing about that change for the rest of her life.
Honestly, if they ever made a film on Grace O'Malley, Maureen O'Hara would have been PERFECT for the role (she actually played a female pirate once and took sword lessons). Who better to play the role of Ireland's Pirate Queen?
She was in the wrong though. The Irish free state retained the monarchy until 1937. So it was a legitimate requirement in 1920.
@@lmonk9517 check your dates. she was born in 1920, but the naturalization ceremony I mentioned happened in Jan 1946
Also, if she was in the wrong, one would expect the US government to push back against her position.
@@shelbynamels973 Apologies . I did misread .
@言行一致 Níl agus ní bheidh an stát 26 contae mar Phoblacht Fhlaitheasacha na hÉireann. Lig ort gurb é an neamhspleáchas a fuaireamar riamh.
Incredible. I find it hard to not be impressed at how factual and not biased this was. As I understand it it is incredibly easy to fall into these pitfalls. Great job.
Thanks!
@@jessealexander2695 I agree, you are such a fantastic presenter of information. I have a various amount of interests that I inform myself on using youtube, history not even being my favorite, but The Great War is my favorite channel on the platform and I’ve recommended you to anybody I’ve ever talked about pre, during and post WW1 to. Keep it up because you and your team are beyond fantastic!
Hense, the disabling of the dislikes for this video.
@@kdrgaming3344 UA-cam across the board disabled dislikes that is out of the creators control.
I’ve rarely come across such a well presented description of this period of Irish history. The Great War team are such professionals.
The one thing I always liked about this channel since 2014( 1914) is that it gets facts on both sides.
However UA-cams weird policys has prevented these Awsome guys from getting full facts and stories (including old pictures and videos).
But they still try their best to give us facts at the best of their abilities without trying to provoke UA-cam.
So thanks to all the team.
-Long time subscriber.
In my early 20s, I completely understood & empathized with the Anti-Treaty side. Now, close to 50 & with sons who would've had to fight, the Treaty compromises seem rather tiny. Time & parenthood changes us immensely.
As the first one here and from Ireland I might add I'm so happy to see more videos on the Irish history. Can't wait for more Irish videos 😁🇮🇪
Yeah. Not Irish but it's fascinating. I love the Irish videos on this channel.
I second this proposal 🇮🇪🇮🇪
I am Northern Irish and believe that you and I are in touch with our family
@@jehova5650 you may be Northern Irish but Northern Ireland dosnt exist
@@cathanmccann1769 yes it does
"It takes more courage to examine the dark corners of your own soul than it does for a soldier to fight on a battlefield"
- William Butler Yeats
Not really though. Not in 1916. Had he ever seen a battle field?
What was he throwing?
@@kb4903 Yes he did kinda- more of a bystander than a solider though. Ireland became the battlefield during the Irish Civil War and his garden and fields would regularly a place of skirmish attacks. Both sides would regularly have cups of tea with him in Galway in his derelict tower talking about the weather and fishing.
@@reverendroar He had never fought on a battlefield. I like Yeats but this quote was just pure arrogance on his end.
One of my favorite poets but he was never a soldier.
"To go for a drink is one thing, to be driven to it is another" Michael collins on the pressure of the talks during the Anglo-Irish Treaty. Thank you to the great war for these excellent and informative videos. Even Irish historians cannot agree on why de Valera didn't go to London leading to much debate and conjecture
De Valera was an American and thats what saved his life after the 1916 uprising when he was captured. He knew that the Brits wouldnt harm him, unlike his IRB / IRA comrades. When the Treaty happened De Valera knew that "the big fella" Michael Collins would probably get elected as Irelands first President. Thats why he walked out of the Dial (Irish Parliament) and brought on the Civil War. Who sent Michael Collins to London for the Treaty negotiations ? DE VALERA. With that Collins was a dead Man walking. How can anyone doubt that De Valera set him up ?
@@ardshielcomplex8917 But wasn't Michael Collins second choice? Didn't De Valera ask Cathal Brugha to go first but he refused?
It was strategic. If DeValera went to London "with hat in hand" he likely would not have gotten an audience...or any sympathy!
@@Ellemerob Yeah. It was pretty obvious that DeValera was hedging his bets, knowing from his own talks with Lloyd George the previous summer how far the British were prepared to go.
Did you know that in school, DeValera supposedly wrote an essay championing monarchism?
Devalera sent Michael Collins to the London talks to make him the scapegoat simple as.
de Valera ducked his responsibility and hung Collins out to dry. He basically put a bullseye on Collins back rather than making the hard choices himself!
In all fairness the fact that the British essentially forced the Irish delegation to sign the treaty without time to consult the Irish parliament, or consider other compromises, raises a serious question of democratic legitimacy.
Exactly. First he avoided joining the delegacy and the sulked that he wasn't informed. Some leader he was.
@@mEmory______ Except that the Treaty was approved by the Dáil in January 1922.
@@EdMcF1 yeah my point was that it was under the duress of war and, more importantly, the unauthorised signature prevented further, and better, negotiations.
The norm is that the main man comes in after negotiations, the brits were more experienced in diplomacy and carried a big gun. It is similar now with Brexit except the EU are shredding the inept UK negotiators.
Best summary of the Anglo irish treaty I have ever seen, and I’ve watched about everything on the troubles on UA-cam
The troubles specifically refers to the armed struggle of the Provisional IRA in the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. The Irish War of Independence and Civil War would not be referred to as the Troubles
@@peterm17 Not a few called the War of Independence the Troubles too.
@@stephenwright8824Even so, generally, when "the Troubles" are invoked, people think of the Provos and yhe UDA and all that.
History like this really fascinates me. There are so many world events that history classes in school never have time to cover. Videos like these help bring a wider understanding to the world.
My great grandfather was in the Irish civil war and the war of indipendnce.
He was fond of saying in his later years. "I shot better men than the ones who run the country today"
It was only when I grew older I realised how right he was.
Those who die young are always idolised. It's impossible to say how they would have changed with age and pragmatism.
@@foxyboiiyt3332 always? Hardly.
When oppertune? Definitely.
So glad I left Europe. Nice to be free to live as I choose now
Depends which side you refer to
@@chiefslinginbeef3641 where are you living now?
I'm with Collins on this one. So I will pragmatically declare my allegiance to this channel.
A very well researched episode by Jesse and the Great War team. No bias to either side and well respected historians used for source material e.g. Green against Green (Hopinkinson, 1988) which is considered the definitive account of the Irish Civil War.
An excellent examination of the Anglo Irish treaty negotiations and their outcome.
As an Irish person. Thanks so much for this. The video was fair and balanced.
Well done on the pronunciation of Cathal Brugha.
and yet fell at "Childers"
As an Irish person. I have to say that you've done a great job. Well researched and put together.
I am seriously thinking of travelling to Ireland to discover this awesome country after following your catchy episodes about Ireland, this one and the latter ones related to the Irish-British conflict 100 years ago. Cheers to Ireland! Cheers to TGW crew!
It's worth the trip. Get out of Dublin as fast as possible and go see Galway and the west coast!
If you ever do come and are interested in learning more about Irish history, Glasnevin cemetery is an excellent place to start. Most of the names you would have heard about in this video are buried there and there are excellent tour guides as well.
@@peterm17 Thank you for your tip, Peter g
@@spacemanx9595 Thank you for your tip!
This is an excellent video presentation that clearly and concisely explains the events surrounding the Anglo Irish Treaty.
Thank you so much for this series. There is very little that is widely known about these events and this helps broaden awareness.
Thanks for this. I'm eagerly awaiting the next video on this.
I pledge a Patreon, to The Great War, and to the edutainment, for which it provides, Real Time History, 100 years ago, with enlightening knowledge for all. And the only UA-cam History Channel that gets an oath of allegiance from its viewers
Great video, fun fact: the civil war is not part of curriculum in primary/secondary schools(under 17/18) in Ireland only in 3rd level courses(history etc), I asked my history teacher when in school why it wasn't included and he said it was because it was still too fresh in people's lives, as in one pupils family(grandparents) may have been pro treaty while another's may have been anti treaty, so names/attacks etc might cause issues so it was decided to stop after the war of independence.
Note: this was the early 90s so may have changed by now
Because it ruins the Irish Nationalist delusion. If the IRA won then why did they have a civil war over the Treaty? It reveals the central lie of Irish Nationalism.
Yeah they thought it when I was there with great emphasis placed on the treaty in fairness they also did quite a bit about the troubles
You must be pretty old. I did it in secondary school in the late 90s and I didnt do honours history or anything.
@@jimmyryan5880 Yes but that's the Shamrock Awakening, the era of the Father Ted generation, it show how far the South has come in the last few decades.
It's thought in schools now
Funnily enough we've just finished this in leaving cert history, might just show my teacher this video
And just after getting through the video, it's incredibly well done and factual, and avoids republican bias like most videos on the topic, while providing a very easy to follow narrative, all together, an amazing video on a very misconstrued and little known topic
thanks!
Literally in the same scenario
@@TheGreatWar do albania next day or week
sorry i missed what republican bias you are talking about? i would like to know your thoughts on this
I love your channel keep up the great stuff!!
Thanks for continuing this series and for covering the topic of Irish independence.
You got it Boss. Here's my oath of allegiance. Great vid, as always.
I don't know about taking an oath. Kinda looking over my shoulder at the World War II channel right now.
This is on You Tube: THE TREATY (a Thames TV/ RTE co production). Well worth watching..
This is so helpful for my revision for my final exams, thanks guys
Treaty didn’t come up your year unfortunately
Erskine Childers, interesting man, worth a episode dedicated to him alone.
Check out his novel, "The Riddle of the Sands" considered by some to be the first spy novel.
His son became President of Ireland.
Flo&Jesse, This and Glory and Defeat. Impressive works severally, more impressive when I consider the workload of both. My compliments.
Amazing that 100 years later this is still the period of history which still defines Ireland and that there is currently another treaty that is being negotiated with Ireland as the focal point
Hardly anyone in GB, especially England, understands this huge irony.
If Irish sovereignty had been respected, Brexit would have been far easier.
Look at America; it’s still grappling with the unfinished business of the Civil War- history is never done with any of us.
@@stevendurrant1724 Hardly anyone in gb, especially england, understands anything. There, fixed that for you.
@@seanmccann8368What? They unironically would prefer Brexit to keeping Northern-Ireland ironically enough.
One important fact that this account doesn't mention is that the Ulster Unionists had large militias that were armed to the teeth and it was widely feared that trying to force them to join the Free State against their will would result in a bloodbath that would make the civil war within the Free State look like an afternoon tea party.
Essentially nothing had changed since 1914, the equation was the same.
If they did manage to win Ulster would’ve risen killed every Catholic and Republican within their borders and invaded the south
Yeah the UVF was basically an army and if the IRA and UVF got at eachother in a civil war it would have been a complete bloodbath
@@patriotamerican3426Ulster is a Province of 9 Counties. 6 was given to the British! I can tell you the people of the border did put up a brave resistance in May/June 1922 (The Battle of Pettigo n Belleek in counties Donegal and Fermanagh) but got no support from Dublin. Collins who had been elected MP in Armagh (May 1921) distanced himself from it.
As was the way of old Irish people like my grandparents. they never spoke (Collins) his name again n the mention of Childers was met with silence too (English spy they whispered). Sadly imo the men who were the real leaders were all killed in the Rising in 1916.
Northern Ireland is akin to the old Kingdom of Acre, an artificial statelet created with a mind to have a British enclave in perpetuity- like Acre, the sponsoring nations eventually flag and demographic forces subsume it back into it’s neighbors.
One small nitpick. He keeps saying ulster had 6 countries. Ulster had 9 counties. NI has 6 counties.
Yes, and Ulster still has nine counties. When I drove into County Donegal from the south there was a sign saying something like "Welcome to Ulster".
What's the difference??? Just curious & seriously asking 🤔
@@raybarry4307 well the nine counties of ulster are a region of Ireland, and six of them are occupied by Britain and called "Northern Ireland"
@@deathgripskaraoke9351 Yes l get that. But a majority of the people who live there don't see it as an occupation so then is it really. I mean They voted to stay with the UK.
@@raybarry4307 correct, we are not occupied at all, the majority are happy to be within the United Kingdom
"It's my considered opinion that in the fullness of time, history will record the greatness of Collins and it will be recorded at my expense." - Eamon De Valera
Dev really hated the big fella, it just shows what a petty little barsteward Dev really was.
@@seanmccann8368What? They were on good terms before the split. Also it is unlikely he sayed the above.
Fantastic video.
Imagine being a soldier in the Free State Army, when a year or so before you were in the IRA. You were fighting against the very men who had been your comrades and whose success against the Crown had led to the Treaty in the first place. But events and history take some very strange turns. The same deValera who egged on the IRA in the civil war later turned against them as they threatened his own power. They wanted to replace the Free State with the Republic, just as he did in 1922.
Devalera comes across as very slimy. his blood and soil nationalist rhetoric has been a major factor in Irish unrest.
Robert Erskine Childer's most famous work as an author (the Riddle of the Sands) was a call to arms against the dangers of German ambitions on the world stage.
It was. In 1903 Childers was preoccupied with the military threat from the German Empire. Twenty years later he had become an Irish patriot.
Staunch English Unionist to Hardline Irish Republican in a few years.
His switch seemed to come after the Boer War. I reckon he saw the concentration camps which changed him.
@@barryb90 don't forget that many British soldiers guarding those camps died of starvation and disease along side the detainees. The causes were poor planning on the part of the British and the Boers cutting the supply lines. Either way it would be enough to change anyone's mind.
@@johnhanamy9795 He became a traitor who sold Britain out.
@@barryb90 No, he even served in the navy in WW1. During the Treaty negotiations he even tried to prove to the Admiralty that the Treaty Ports were of no value much to their hilarity. Sir Ormonde Winter recalls him breaking into a hissy fit when interviewing him by reminding him to pick up his medal for his service from Buckingham Palace.
de Valera was the ultimate politician: willing to take whatever position he thought would draw the most attention to him. The saddest part of the Irish Civil War is that after he surrendered, de Valera became the harshest critic of those who fought against accepting the treaty, in short, of the people he once supposedly led.
Indeed, as the Protestant IRA volunteer George Plant found out in 1942, if Dev wanted you dead, he'd do it by judicial or extrajudicial means
@@marks_sparks1 Borrowing the British hangman to do so.
@@MrLorenzovanmatterho Plant was shot, not hung
I see him as a Irish Charles De Gaulle- a young innovative revolutionary liberal in his youth, who becomes a rather authoritarian conservative (little c) leader that comes with age.
@@marks_sparks1 It's a Irish phrase.. rather ominous actually
Outstanding and thank you!
Just when Ireland reached peace, it went into war again
Where it all went wrong
“Having learned from history that all bourgeois movements end in compromise, that the bourgeois revolutionists of today become the conservatives of tomorrow” - James Connolly 1897
Oddy It isn't the first time in irish history this happened back in 1646 during the 11 years war a peace treaty between the Catholic confederacy and the royalist lead to a civil war too
Excellent video 📹
This whole idea of nation-states born in the French and American revolution is the main reason for all the wars after that. Everyone dreamed of a similar idea for their country and nationalism has replaced monarchism to this day. It went from wars against religions and kingdoms to wars against nations and their ideologies, which later became known as Nazism and Communism, which was also in part part of the IRA and the socialist group around James Connolly. I don't want to defend Britain, but rather the idea of a UK or EU as a cosmopolitan construct bringing multiple countries and nations together under one rule, rather than that old 'everyone must fight for their own country' mentality. which comforts me more than these stupid conflicts about a flag or own borders. At least our ancestors wandered throught the world until they found a place to settle. They did not care about these questions and problems nowadays. If someone were to send their DNA to a genetics institute, they would see that their DNA shared the information of many origins and not one nation in particular. We are all connected in one way or another. Don't let any ideologues poison your hearth with their nonsense, they want violence because they want you to free thier way for their success and career, but you end up being just a tool for these charismatic psychopaths
This is an extremely informative video and really important, the topics being covered here are still extremely prevelent in modern Irish society as Civil War politics are still in full swing
You left out, if the Irish Free State Army did not take back the four Courts (main high Court of Ireland) back from the IRA, the British Army who were still in the Phoenix Park with a sizeable force would have acted. Not all of the British Army left. Most of the "British army" in Ireland were actual Irish men which were transferred to the Irish Free state army or the left once WW1 ended. They forced Michael Collins hands, because Michael Collins were running guns to the North via the Four Courts under the British noses. It was the real reason why the IRA took over the Four Courts. There was a ready stash of arms there. That was the start of the Irish Civil war. Collins was trying to buy time with the North actions, but the Civil war became very bitter on both sides as it became very personal.
Been looking forward to this info
Interesting video, I never really knew about the Anglo-Irish War
For the algorithm gods!
The book Partition, how and why Ireland was divided by Gibbons explains the negotiations and politics up to 1925 in detail.
Excellent, thank you. Just one tiny quibble - Erskine was chilled(ers) not a child(ers) in pronounciation.
Ach - thanks for that.
@@jessealexander2695 You're welcome; he had served in British Naval intelligence during WW1 and before that had used his yacht Asgard to run German rifles into Ireland to arm the Irish Volunteers. Previous to that he had written a spy novel -"The Riddle of the Sands" about a fictitious German plan to invade Britain across the North sea and he would be executed by the Irish Free State during the Civil War for possession of a pistol he had been presented by Michael Collins. His son, Erskine Hamilton Childers, served as 4th President of Ireland, dying in office in 1974.
Got Cathal Brugha just about right, though.
@@johnmullen7775 Always happens, I try to do not bad on the hard ones and it's the easy ones that get me.
@@johnmullen7775 Sure did.
Jesse is the best narrator!
Thanks!
Very well made.
Very well explained . The Irish were unfortunate to have had a Spaniard imposed upon them who proceeded to cast a long and ominous shadow over Ireland both culturally and economically throughout the 20th century .Indeed the unanswered question , why did he not go to London himself ?
He didn't think he had to. He thought they would come home with something and then they would all vote on it. Dev had already tried to talk to the British but they got nowhere. By the way I have no time for Dev but he was a very intelligent man.
Had it not been for him, you would still be in the Commonwealth!
Self preservation.
@@christianfreedom-seeker2025 Him, who? DeValera or Collins?
@@christianfreedom-seeker2025Eamonn de Valera wasn’t in power (as Taoiseach) when Ireland left the Commonwealth, John Costello was.
And de Valera personally favoured a compromise where Ireland would be a republic, but ‘externally associated’ with the Commonwealth (somewhat similar to the situation Ireland had 1936/7-1949).
So no, he was not responsible for ‘Ireland leaving the Commonwealth’.
Great job very fair and unbiased. One minor note Erskine childers is pronounced err-skin chill-ders
😢.
I think you'll find that the *nine* counties of ulster province are actually majority Catholic when put together, however the gerrymandered artificial borders of *Northern Ireland* were specifically drawn to create a majority protestant region
During the early 1910s, the province of Ulster has a slim protestant majority of around 56% so the first part of your statement is incorrect and the reason why only six counties were included was to increase the percentage if protestants to around 60% which would reduce the power of the Catholic minority. Gerrymandering would be introduced to solidify unionist power in the new state.
Will there be more monthly videos of this inter-war period or does that conflict w/ the other series?
Interesting that the division of Ireland has now lasted a full century
Where can I find this great channel outside of UA-cam?
It is hart warming to see how the Irish fought for freedom from British Imperialism and won. How voting is going in Northern Ireland it is only a matter of time before the last remains of British Imperialism is kicked out of Ireland.
Hopefully not while the majority are still loyal.
@@Dan_1348 nope ur wrong the majority of people in the North of Ireland are catholic
@@Dan_1348 For the first time in the history of NI catholics have outnumbered protestants and they have a pro nationalist goverment sinn fein
Robert Childers surname is pronounced Chill Ders. He was executed during the Civil War. His son was elected President of Ireland in 1973 and Childers Granddaughter served as an MEP as recently as 2019
De Valera was a real piece of work. History, however, has judged him and not well.
In 1966, de Valera, who had long strived to minimize, even erase Michael Collins' place in Irish history, said the following:
“It is my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.”
And that expense will never be enough to repay Ireland for the damage de Valera did. Imagine how different things might have been, had not de Valera undermined the treaty and promoted the Civil War. (Not that he did that alone.) I can only imagine how different Ireland's history would have been under Collins' leadership rather than Dev's. Or, had he succeeded in scuttling the Treaty and presided over the brutal crushing of the IRA and Ireland under the full scale war that the Crown would assuredly have executed. What would Dev's legacy be then? As it stands, I can't see Eamon de Valera as anything more than a narcissistic prig who sold out Irish lives in favor of his own jealousy, ego and mania. His actions are those of a man who would rather see his country destroyed than have a man he envied prove more popular and powerful than he, and take his place as the state's leader. Collins kept his life on the line while Dev played celebrity in the country he was born in. Collins always put the Irish people first. De Valera always put himself first.
As an English bloke, I never knew anything about this. All throughout my schooldays in the 1970s & 1980s (when the Troubles in Northern Ireland were at their worst) we were never taught anything about Ireland or the reasons as to why people were getting shot and bombed, how the Troubles began, or anything at all. I imagine it was the same in schools all over the country. It's no wonder that the Irish hate(d) us 🙄
Do you think if it was taught in schools about the history between our two countries it would of made any difference?
@@1569-f8x no
The Irish do not hate the English.
Many Irish did hate the British establishment for the first half of the 20th century.
(Also English) Ironically, the overwhelming majority of the population of the plantation in Ulster was by Lowland Scottish people, not English (hence why the Ulster Scots language spoken in NI is a thing, and why the flavour of Protestantism there is Presbyterian, like it traditionally is in Scotland, not Anglican, like in England).
So it was more ‘British’ imperialism in respect to Ireland, rather than ‘English’ (not saying the English aren’t to blame either, but the whole thing is more nuanced than that).
I've been wondering, what's better for you guys, watching here or on Nebula? I already pay for the Nebula subscription, so it always feels like I should watch the videos here to add to the numbers.
Brilliant.☘️👍
Still has a big effect today, the split between fine gael and Fianna Fáil can be traced back to this
You’d think they’d have moved on a merged by now given the only major difference I can see from an outside perspective is that Fine Gael don’t despise us Brits quite as much as Fianna Fáil (politically speaking anyway).
@@cobbler9113 I expect they will in the near future, especially if Sinn Féin continues to do as well as it currently is
@@cobbler9113 probably right as Fine Gael wanted to hold a ceremony in respect to the RUC
There both pro British
@@mrgreen405 There are no pro-British parties in the ROI.
That clip of men with signs saying Sinn Fein helped Germany where did u find it?
Everyone gets Irish pronunciation wrong, Jesse gets it all right!
He did extremely well, obviously does his research. Kinda got Childers wrong but a very small thing
Is the original series The Great War now over?
I never knew that the treaty wasn't really approved by Ireland first
'the freedom to achieve freedom' - i like that
Less talked about part of Irish history
Cause most people thought Irish = British maybe
Of course, it spoils the myth.
Nice video
So is this the end of TGW?
This was a balanced video; not the anti-English rubbish I was expecting. Great work.
They generally do a great job focusing on the events. Seriously, one of the best history channels on UA-cam.
vile behavior the world over can't be overlooked, stu
@@jimcarlson6157 what behaviour are you referring to? Anything in particular, I believe there was terrible incidents on both sides.
Love your videos but they need more maps.
You should've pinned an oath as a comment here, so people could give a thumbs up or comment under it.
Incidentally, Jesse, the Dominion of Canada became independant in 1931, i.e. ten years later.
When I visited Dublin I stayed right across the street from kilmainham gaol. The jail the English used to imprison and execute many Irish dissidents. We saw the cells of many famous rebels and the courtyard where many were executed. After the treaty operations of the prison fell to the new Irish government. They in turn used it to imprison and even execute their own Irish rebels... Brother killing brother. So sad. Fantastic tour btw. The docent we had was so enthusiastic about history and totally acted the part.
My grandfather fought on the Collins side.
Interesting that as one war ended, another one began
Fantastic video and show how it was at the time. I am looking for some help I have heard that in the Irish brigades in WW1 that after the Easter rising. Many refused to fight and every second man was shot and I was wondering is there any facts to this story?
Nope. The Connaught Rangers mutinied in India in 1920 over the British Armys atrocities in Ireland, which is what you're probably confused about.
@@barryb90 Only 70 out of tens of thousands who'd fought and died for Britain, including helping defeat the Easter Risers. The Indian mutiny was actually a much wider affair over conditions, some non Irish soldiers also taking part.
Thanks for clearing that up for me 😊
Slippery character, auld Dev.
Once correction:
The six counties of Ulster were not "mostly" protestant. They had large Catholic minorities and some were 50/50 like Fermanagh and Tyrone
If you look at the six counties as a whole, then there is a protestant majority, but there are areas with a roughly 50/50 split
@@j.kearney484 ulster is 9 counties
@@SeeYouNextTuesI was referring to the six counties in Northern Ireland, I could have been more clear tbf
do a story on gavrilo Principe
or maybe Aaron lopez
The treaty absolutely sold out nationalists/catholics in Ulster. And DeVelera shafted Collins
And tragically forced the abandonment of Unionists/Protestants in the Free State who were treated so much worse, being ruled over by those who had murdered their families and considered anti-British racism patriotism.
@@MrLorenzovanmatterho anti-British racism wouldn't exist if there was no anti-Irish racism coming from the UK. Google the Punch magazine picture of John Redmond leading the pigs into a sty and you'll see there is loyal Protestant Ulster trying to run away. Charming how British treat a people who claim they're as British as Finchley.
@@MrLorenzovanmatterho complete utter bullshit, Protestants had it much better down south than catholics did up north.
@@MrLorenzovanmatterho complete lies.
@@shawnfinnegan64 What? Is that all you've got? Come on, what have I said that is untrue? Come on, WHAT? Come on, you know fine rightly it was all a LIE, Irish Nationalism is ALL A LIE! I known you've been raised to be a bigot and a racist hypocrite in the Catholic church's sectarian apartheid education system but you're actually talking to a Unionist now and hearing the other side of the story. Come on, give it up, give up your prejudice, it's the Shamrock Awakening, embrace the truth. Offer reconciliation to your Unionist brothers and sisters, apologise for your disgusting hatred, don't be PW Botha, be FW De Klerk.
This video is superb, Irish history is as far as I can tell often unfairly overlooked and because of it, there are those who claim to be "experts," in this field and try to make one side of the debate holier than thou. The truth is that Irish History is littered with people doing terrible things, whether it's the British doing nothing to help Ireland during the potato famine (including erecting a very offensive memorial that claims "(...) Britania gave her bounty with her tears and bear this record, though in phrases crude, of England's love and Ireland's gratitude,"), Oliver Cromwell slaughtering the local population of Ireland in the 1640's, the IRA attacking a Remembrance Sunday mass in Northern Ireland, the Easter Rising, the 3 Bloody Sundays in Irish History (Dublin in 1920, Belfast in 1921 and Derry/Londonderry in 1972) and so many others, since I visited Belfast in 2015, I have learned to be neutral in the debate about Irish history
Those of the Irish delegation were really put into an impossible position, and the English Prime Minister knew he had them bent over a barrel at that moment.
*British prime minister.
Who incidentally, was Welsh.
Honestly it seems like the treaty was a necessary compromise given the reality of the situation. They got as much as they could under the circumstances.
Da Valera was playing a very cynical political game here imo. And he painted a target on Collin’s back for doing the thing that he himself was unwilling to do.
It's also pretty stupid how Michael Collins literally died because some of his own people could not come to terms with the treaty even though Ireland did indeed gain full independence anyways
@@BobPantsSpongeSquare97 Full independence? There's 6 counties outstanding.
@@WangMingGe yes the Republic of Ireland exists as an independent country
@@BobPantsSpongeSquare97 The free state was not a independent country, it was a dominion, you had to swear loyalty to the king to get into Leinster house.
@@WangMingGe Those counties viewed themselves as more British than the (mainland) British. Loyalists had their own militias equal to anything the Catholics had in both organisation and violence and it would have been a bloodbath if anyone even tried to force them to join. Even in peaceful 2021, there is still a lot of hate between these groups, and plenty of men have kept their balaclavas.
What about the forgery signature
I am anti-treaty because the treaty was just genius British diplomacy. They got everything they wanted (Ireland is off the Cabinet's desk, a 6 county Northern-Ireland exists and strategic concerns are mooted with treaty ports. Oath too.). This is why I agree that Éamon de Valera should have been negotiating. I am a Monarchist so I would prefer Dual-Monarchy.
OK what was the anti-treaty hopes, for complete war, nationalism stomped out and UK status quo remained?
@@FionanUaMurchadha No, the hope was for a renegotiation which granted a looser status for Éire.
@@johnnotrealname8168 the IRA would've been utterly crushed in a week or two had the anti treaty side got its way.
@@TheM41a The IRA almost defeated the National Army.
Sometimes you've just got to take yes for an answer. The British Empire held all the cards really, being able to destroy the IRA within a couple of weeks without the ceasefire. War-weariness notwithstanding, they had the forces to move around to maintain an indefinite military occupation. The new intake of Republican volunteers were untrained, of debatable moral courage, and could not be armed, with the IRA all but out of ammunition. Collins got the best deal that could be had. De Valera and co. might have preferred to fight a civil war against the Protestants of Ulster, but by rejecting the treaty which protected them, they opted to fight a civil war against fellow Republicans instead. Such are the inflexibilities and extremism of nationalism. When you worship an idol, it cannot be surprising that human sacrifices are demanded.
Not to mention those Protestants in Ulster would have been protected by the British Military. Any attempt by the Irish to forcibly take Ulster would have been a disaster for them.
@@cobbler9113 Probably. They would have been lavishly supplied with arms and pro-Orange volunteers would have arrived from Scotland and elsewhere.
@@patrickholt2270 Not to mention the inevitable naval blockade that would have taken place. It also wouldn’t help the Irish government that all their main cities are on or very near the coast and those naval guns were quite menacing… It probably wouldn’t have come to that, but the fear would have been there.
Collins was also a Nationalist
@@cobbler9113 The Protestants in Ulster were already heavily armed and didn't need protecting. The ones who needed protecting were the Catholics in Ulster, and it's not clear how much stomach the British Army would have had for fighting Unionists to protect people perceived as disloyal. And as stated in the video the IRA was very weak in Ulster. The likely alternative to partition was a bloodbath and then getting partition anyway.
Pronunciation is spot on. But the real issue was the six counties not the oath. The problem was there were still lots of catholics in the north even though a lot were heading south or over to England. They were facing a lot of violence from the authorities and many were being killed. Neither Dev nor Collins wanted to turn their backs on them. The English leaders and the Irish leaders could have come up with some solution to the refugee crisis and the country is feeling the affects to this day.
Looks like Irelands troubles were far from over after this treaty came about.
Correction: Ulster was not "mostly protestants", this is not an accurate depiction. The Irish had no navy, very little land ownership. Also Irish Catholics has been prohibited from becoming doctors, judges and other senior positions or marry a protestant that worked for Guinness. There was a lot of separatism outside of politics.
De valera is hated by my father. Michael Collins is a true Irish hero
Could you please do the Garza revolution or the 2nd Samoan civil war
A video on the 2nd Samoan Civil War or the Honduran Civil War would be great. The Great War could even lump them together as part of a roundup video of obscure interwar/prewar conflicts.
This series of videos by The Great War gives an excellent overview of the Irish rebellion against British rule from Easter 1916 to 1921 and I look forward to future videos about the history of Ireland in the 1920s (and beyond?). However, I think the video on Ireland in early 1918 was substandard; perhaps the Great War Team could revise it.
I love ulsters