Should You Use A PID On Your Still?
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Should you use a PID to control your still? A lot of distillers end up asking this question at some point or another.
The idea is to use a PID to track the temperature at the top of your still and use it to alter the amount of energy going into the boiler. To control the elements. This video gives my thoughts on the topic.
If you would like to hear a longer (and slightly tipsy) discussion on this topic George from Barley & Hops and I discussed it in this podcast:
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#Podcast #homebrew #distilling
Just in case you didn’t realize I often include affiliate links in my videos and descriptions.
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The conversations are great. Some of you may not realize it but Jesse and I are friends. Please keep that in mind.
Many of these comments do show how much PID control is misunderstood. Have an open mind; PID is simply SCR automated with a feedback loop.
I really enjoy the deep back and forth discussions and sharing of experiences. Reminds me of two fans comparing stats and abilities of their favorite football teams.
Happy Distilling
George
Hey George. I follow you, Jesse and bearded. It’s nice y’all became good friend. Wish I coulda been there for some of the discussions off camera. Lol. I really do thank u for ur time and trying to help me out. Know ur a busy man. Keep cookin...!
A PID is a tool - it is a mathematical control method that takes a set point, compares said set point to a measured variable, and decides how a changeable process variable needs to be modified in order to get the measured variable and the set point to the same value. To my mind the arguments should really be how one chooses the measured and control variables. Simply put, a PID controller is like a hammer, and whether you use that hammer to knock nails into a board or to bludgeon someone doesn't make the hammer evil or good either way....
Awwww George you ruined it, .... I was gonna suggest we have a cage-fight ala 'childrens beastwars' over PID use.
.... now I'm still taking odds, which is gonna win, the wise ol' North American Mantas or the Furry Antipodean Dung Beetle?!? 🤣😂🤣
Y'all are both right. You control the process both ways. When you use pid and control of reflux together it will work best. They are both tools to control the whole process and when used together you will get the best results. Just my .02. I run process units at a petrochemical refinery with distillation towers over 200 ft tall and if you tried to control the process using just one or the other method it would take for ever for things to line out, but eventually it will. Just goes slot smoother and faster we you use all you equipment together.
I thought a PID was just ON or OFF for an SSR.
I've been distilling for years now and started off controlling temperature manually. Frankly, that is a pain in the ass. I switched to a PID and love it, but it is not a device that should run unattended. Like most equipment, it requires gaining experience using it. First off, when the PID starts up heating the wash it is going to run flat out on max high. It will continue to do that till the thermal probe set temperature is reached. At that point it will begin actual temperature control. What you want is for the still and the PID to become balanced. When this happens, the set and actual temperature are about the same. This is the "sweet" spot where outflow is right, temperature perfect, and ABV up around 90-96%. At this point it will continue at a constant for sometime, but not forever. As the run progresses, you will need to adjust the set temp up a bit now and then. How much to adjust depends on the outflow and ABV which you want to be consistent. Where new users make a mistake is thinking a PID is a totally automatic device. It isn't. You still need to monitor temp, flow, and ABV as the run progresses.
I start my set temp at around 130 F and let the still gradually come up. Once at 130 F, I increase set temp to 145-150F to remove Heads and here is where balancing begins. I let it flow till I've removed about 4oz of waste Heads, then move set temp up in 5-8 degree increments till actual and set temps are running close. Generally around 175-180F. This is the sweet spot. Let it run as long as temps remain close. Gradually, you will have to bump up the set temp in small 3-5 degree increments. I will stop my run when boiler temp reaches around 204F or ABV hits about 88%. Any lower and you'll begin to introduce tails or off flavors.
In my opinion, a PID is awesome! But, you need to keep monitoring it and become experienced with it. I would never go back to distilling without a PID.
Marshall Solomon Do you have your thermocouple in the boiler or in the vapor stream? Thanks for your input.
PS if it IS in the vapor stream, where do you have it, bottom close to the boiler or top close to the condenser?
If you have your pid on timers why would you need to monitor it?
@@MrShnazer A still should never be left alone while running. It should always be attended. Alcohol is very flameable and vapour is explosive if it builds up.
@@MrShnazer You should never run a PID on a timer! Running a still requires you to monitor the operation pretty much from start to finish. Now, I will add that once the boiler and the PID become balanced, it is ok to step away for a few minutes, but as the as run continues, you'll need to watch for changes in outflow and proof because this is where the balance point changes and you'll have to increase set temp. Remember, as the run progresses, proof will decrease and temperature will need to be increased. As you work with your setup, you'll learn what to expect and get a routine established.
@@megapint1626 Thermal probe is at the top of the column at the point where vapor coming up transitions to the down flow to condenser.
I have 3" dial thermometer in my boiler. Temperature there is always going to be higher than the probe. Boiler temp will be around 180F at start of outflow and gradually increase over the run. I stop when boiler temp reaches 204F. By then proof will be about 185-188, but you will start to get tails and not worth continuing.
Should get with George and make a PID solenoid valve controlled still.. That would be cool.. best of both world's.. Take care , and Thank you ..
What you describe at 10 minute mark is NOT how your PID should be working if you set it up for distilling. This is what people fail to realize and why people say a PID is the wrong tool for the job. Their SETUP/USE of the PID is wrong. When setup correctly it will NOT be using AutoTune but will be delivering a constant amount of power until it reaches it's target temp. After alll why would it lower power when it hasn't reached the target temp??? It will not be pushing/pulling power if setup correctly.
So in a nutshell it will be delivering a steady amount of power until it reaches it's set point and then it will not be producing product. So if you set the temp for where hearts starts the heads will come out and the drip will slow down approaching hearts. You can switch to small containers during the cutover period and collect late tails. Then you up the temp and put the reflux still back into full reflux mode to compress your vapor again and change the set point for where tails come in. Now you will get a steady amount of power up to where tails come out and the still will slow way down as it needs more energy to produce the tails.
So you are not controlling temperature but allowing the PID to help you make better cuts.
Of course a good PID will have a manual mode you can switch to which will basically put it in power vs temperature mode. PIDs are nice if you use them in the boiler. Switch mode and you can drive the still by boiler temp and shut down at say 210 F or 99.5C when almost all the alcohol is out of the boiler or can be set to hold a temp in the boiler which is great for slow warming and holding rye mashes to avoid puking. Also great for strike water production when fermenting/mashing.
The key is to understand distillation and setup your tools to work properly. Anyone who says a PID is the wrong tool hasn't used one setup properly because if they had it would work just as reliably as a power controller.
With that said I use a DSPR400 for power on my boiler as it has the best features of both power and PIDs built into one device.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU This is one of the FIRST PLACES I have heard this properly stated. You are absolutely correct and this information needs to be out there!
I’m a total newb.
Ok, now that’s out of the way..
This is what I plan to do, and what I think everyone should do that’s interested in the PID/non-PID argument.
I have a PID. I am going to do runs with it, and without it and see which method I like better. Simple as that. No need to argue, that’s so silly. Try it both ways and see which way works best for you.
Easy...
Welcome to the hoby, have fun with it.
I can save you much time. There is no comparison. Using a PID is flat out simply the best way...but like any of one's equipment, you need to use it for awhile till YOU get the hang of it.
I’ve purchased one from George, (love that man) and plan to experiment with it.
I’m retired now, and FINALLY have the time to do what I want. One of the things is distilling. So, I’m plan to make some runs with it, and some without it and make up my own mind. I’ll say though, Georges videos make it look like a superb tool to use.
Or you could just learn a very simple scientific process and realize that the PID crowd simply does not understand how stills and control systems work.
@@MrJhchrist or that the distillers don't understand how PIDs work.....:-) If you in any way change/control the heat going into the pot than likely a PID could be used. Now is it worth the money and time to install/set-up the PID system......?
PID really shines when the process is changing, the more rapid the change the better a choice PID becomes. But in the slow changing distilling process not so much.
my first home built 2" reflux column still was based on Georges PID principle and seemed to work fine at first. The main issue i found that was that the take off temp at the top of the still (where the thermo-couple is) kept changing by 3-10 degrees C up and down as the PID increased and decreased the power input into the boiler. (due to the time lag of the vapor leaving the boiler and reaching the top of the still/thermo-couple) eventually i set the PID to manual mode and set the power output to 30% so the column was under constant vapor load and the output was a constant 500 ML per hour. the thermocouple temp then never moved more than 0.1 degree C the whole run from start to finish. i found 30% was the sweet spot for high quality and if driven harder than 30% created off tastes. My reflux cooling at the top is a manually controlled needle valve and at 6 litres per hour im collecting 93% abv (many many settings of the P, I and D were worked through and much pid theory was researched but would never settle down to a constant temp at the top of the still) Just my 10 pence worth
I I am experiencing exactly the same thing you’re talking about after running 4 runs. I’m very much looking forward to trying your method. Thank you so much for the comment to this video!
I have the sam problem how do you run it in manual mode
Put the PID into autolearn during warm up to learn the time response of your system. Lag is eliminated with the derivative variable in PID. And increase the control frequency so it is really fast.
need some hysteresis added in there ;)
This is the issue that happens when not at constant power, and is what Jessie is talking about with vapor speed. You will get a better product from constant power vs the PID, even though at first the PID seems to work.
Heres something to think about: let's say you put a piece of tape over the display and ran the still based on the condenser output, using the PID's up or down button to control the output. Wouldn't that be exactly like what you do now with your current SCR setup? Your beef with PIDs is isn't the equipment, but the fact that the equipment forces inexperienced distillers to focus on temperature instead of condenser output.
BTW love your channel I watch every new video that comes out. Keep stillin'.
well, all a PID will do extra is just stop production, or almost so you can leisurely change the jar, make a note etc then resume as soon as you change the temp. With an SCR and quick bathroom break or any small distraction you may miss the point and smear
Absolutely love this!! Many people have a hard time visualizing how the distillation process works, your heat source on/in your boiler effects the vapor speed not the boiling point of the boiler. A constant heat source gives a better product in the long run. Keep it up 👍
As always it's how you use the tool. Putting the temp probe at the head and thinking you can control head temp with the boiler is completely wrong, it discounts column pressure and the fact that the liquid has to boil to create this pressure. I use a PID controller for mine. I have the temp probe in the boiler and manually control head temp with a micro valve on my dephleg. I use the PID in automatic to bring the boiler up to my desired temp and then switch to manual mode to control the power level, the liquid will boil at a different temp depending on ABV so the temp of the boiler is important because it tells me how much alcohol is left in the charge.
Finally, I hoped that I wasn't the only one. I could never understand why would you risk burning your wash repeatedly trying to get the head to temp. The PID thermocouple in the wash is just logic to me, then have another thermocouple at the top of the condenser with a readout at the control box.
The only importance of boiler temperature is to help you determine when to stop distilling. I stop when boiler temp reaches 204°F and/or ABV drops to around 50%. Beyond this point tails will begin to appear.
I purchased a PID from clawhammer and it has two functions . You can use temperature for controlling or percentage of power on your element . It works for me on my pot still . For each his own . Love the videos Jesse . Always a great place to learn . Keep it up 👍
After trying propane initially, then using a PID, I have been very happy with not babysitting the flame and constantly chasing the temperature at the point of no return, especially when using a reflux mode. I think it's worth it to try an SCR just to see if it does better on reflux mode. Good argument!👍
I use the pid to get to 120°f because I'm usually doing things while it heats up. I'll switch it over to manual mode after that for the reasons Jesse explained. The temp jumps around a lot in pid mode and smearing is out of control especially when reflux is in play.
Excellent and sound advice Jesse, I was just starting to research the use of a PID on my T-500. Sure hope we can get George back in the near future, miss his lessons.
Jess, love the video. Now that being said. Let's get stuck in on the science behind frac and pot distilling. You almost got there but stopped when getting in to what happens to those respected molecules and how they are separated during frac in the column. What actually happens to them as they rise and fall? Which ones rise during frac and why? George has a few vids on it but we'd love to see you do a detailed disection on frac as well. The molecular science behind just getting some good drink is really cool when you understand how it works and why we do what we do. It really help when doing your build and choosing reflux, plates, scrubbers, and the like to understand why you are choosing a specific thing.
Las Vegas 2020 UFC fight night,
Jessie & George. 😆 Honestly though I love hearing different thoughts and opinions that challenges different thinking.
Bravo Jesse! You have cleared up a lot of questions new hobby distillers have over the process, with great detail. I think that after a dozen or more times running their Stills using both types of temp controllers, they will prove your point. Slow smooth manual temp control is best overall. I made a combined unit, PID to control my HLT, and PWM to run the Still.
All the years I've run LPG and recently got inspired by George on building pid and also building scr controllers and had my issues with pid controller and working through them and resolving all the problems. Pid doesn't like a thermostat electronic urn like the Digiboii urns, furthermore if you're probe is screwed into the metal part of your column it will give you a much higher reading not controlling the temperature correctly. A probe of any kind should run through a rubber grommet not touching any other metal but just to get the vapours temperature.
I'm a recent subscriber and I have no regrets, your hands on approach is awesome, i had recently refurbished an 1800's deroy fils aine still, I believe it to be 27 liters. so I figured i would give home brewing a shot.
You and George sure are on a different page , I use a SCR myself and find it easy to use and super easy to assemble to use .
I use an SCR too. George is using his PID as an SCR too (by adjusting hte temperature throughout the run).
PID is just a means to control the SCR.
Love your channel. Interesting insights, entertaining discussion, enviable outcomes.
As far as learning about distilling, there are no other channels that I watch/listen to other than Jessie & George. They explain every detail of the process, and they discuss the many different ways that distillation can happen. High Tech or Low Tech, you will know how to distill if you simply watch them and try not to get too geeked out initially. i.e. before you hop into a Ferrari or Dodge Viper on the race track, you MIGHT want to learn the basics of driving, then maybe take a couple of track racing classes, etc. THEN, go buy the Viper and then practice, practice, practice. It's the same with distilling.
Love it... it’s a debate I’ve heard so many times, don’t think people can
argue now especially how you have explained it.
I suppose it all depends on where you place the thermocouple.
Thanks jessie glad u shared, perfect timing keep up the great work !!
Right on Jesse! Your explanation is brilliant. I recently built a new still using a PID. Mainly because I love to tinker and having the freedom to be close by my still while it does it’s thing gave me that. I have not found any difference in product. I’ll use my analogy of two cars driving side by side, one is fuel injected one is carbureted. Both accomplish same thing, one does it electronically the other analog.
I use a PID. But not on all occasions. I do not want to lose the skill of adjusting and balancing my own still.
What I find when I use a PID the power is on full when you first start up. Say 2500W. The pot temp will move up toward boiling but at head will slowly increase in temp. The PID will slowly adjust the power to stabilise the temperature. It will stabilise the power input at say 1000W or what is required to keep the still balanced. Any power fluctuation is quite miner. I will set mine at say 75 C PID may take the temp a few degree above 75 c While it homes in on the wattage required. I will wait till my still stabilises and not producing. Then slowly increase the temp in steps. This way I find my still remains balanced and no cutting in and out. There is a skill in balancing a still. It can be easily lost. Don’t become reliant on a PID. Knowing how your still balances helps you understand what your PID is doing. I find PID can be a very useful tool.
Awesome video. I started with a PID and didn’t like the sudden on/off control that it offered. After one run with the SCR, the PID became a decoration on the wall. Analog control is sooo much of an easier way to keep a bubble plate column operating well.
Then you weren't using a PID. an SCR is on/off control! it is NOT analog. You need to do more research.
I'd just say it's important to remember that PID is just a method of trying to control one variable in a process by adjusting another. PID temperature controllers try to control temperature by adjusting power levels to a load. However, with all of the low cost sensors and microcontrollers available these days, is pretty easy to build PID loops that control different process variables. I built a little scale to measure the weight of my collection jar, and by sampling that every second or so can get a good approximation for output rate. I then hooked up a software-based PID control loop to try to keep that output rate at a setpoint by adjusting the duty cycle on a solid state relay. Still tuning it but so far it's pretty promising as an alternate approach to using PID with home distilling. (Of course the commercial folks have all sorts of control loops). Next is going to be adjusting water flow to the reflux condenser and build another little scale to monitor specific gravity and use a PID to manage that as well.
Thank you very much for this video Jesse, have been having this question so much, busy with my next video, the taste test on my All grain whiskey.
I have distilled for a few years and I completely agree with you. Although having a PID that I use to make beer, for distillation (electrically) I use a voltage regulator which in practical terms is like increasing or decreasing gas only if it is done with electricity. It is inexpensive and offers the best results.
Your speech at the end was spot on, well done mate.
Cheers, its kinda sad it even needs to be said. But seems that the world is headed down that dark path more and more . . . .
100% agree with you from A to Z! The only limit to "more vapor up and more vapor down" for oprimized reflux is column flooding.
Also, the same argument apply for flavor compounds (or lack of) if you go for neutral. It's not because you can hit 95% quickly that it will necessarily be tasteless. Some flavors have different volatility and the more reflux ratio (and slower off take), the more compressed the undesired flavor compounds will be and then easier and cleaner the cuts.
good one Jesse clear and detailed info as usual.
My original temperature probe that ran through a grommet gave me 78 degrees centigrade and my pid screwed metal to metal reading 93 degrees centigrade as it picked up the metal to metal heat and not the vapours heat. Fix it by running the pid probe through a rubber grommet or a silicone bung , hopefully it solves everyone else's problems, cheers.
using both works well for me... I first began with a dial controller and I was so scared to scorch the wash, it took me a while to find the right setting (i was very timid). Then I got one of George’s PID kits and found comfort and success using that... But given what I am trying to make (whisky by way of batch/pot distillation) I became skeptical of the PID method because it seemed to me that PID control takes away the ability of the still to “just do its thing” ... find it’s own balance/equilibrium. So, what I do now is use the PID to get the still going then I switch it over the dial control and make adjustments to power based on the flow out the condenser. Nice to have a PID but letting the still do its thing is the way to go 🙂
I use a PID im a big fan ! I did a build along with George i used a Mypin. I have nothing but good to say about it. Im runng a 13 gallon can with 3 in column 4 bubbler plate sight glasses a Dephlegmator anda shotgun condencer. I make a run at least once a week this allows me to not pay as close attention to the still and still get some very tasty whiskey. I supoes its like everything a PID has its place and other times its not the right tool and some people will not like it especially those who avoid technology. I think its just a prefrence its not needed but Im glad its there kinda like my girlfriends fake boobs 😏
she has boobs on her face?
Oh, fake...
@@chrishayden3854 before I used the plates I used a pipe with copper mesh and rashing rings I think the flavors carry threw alot more with bubble plates. Im probably completely wrong but my thorny is with rashing rings you are restricting the vapor flow quite a bit vs plates so what ever happens in that restriction stripps the flavors. The end result is i get the same amount say a gallon of 190 from a 10 gallon run with packing its alot more neutral tasting vs with plates the flavors come threw alot more.
@@carloayars2175 lol that was a typo I meant to say fake 🤣
For a pot'n'thumper, Cascade control with a primary and slave PID, two thermocouples and a final control device attached to the parrot.
This is top notch perspective! Thank you for sharing. I just built a PID for a keg pot still but the thermometer is in the liquid, so screwed up in many ways! Fun. Instead I’m going to try a grainfather and alcoengine. But now we can’t buy sugar because of a strike!
I started with propane turkey fryer burner. Then went to a 120v 2,000 watt element. Just set up my new scr for a new 240v 4500 watt element and I love it! Can get warmed up and dialed in so easily and very precise! To each their own having used all I prefer scr
I modified a hotplate with an SCR to bypass cycling. To do this you have to set it to Maximum and solder an SCR to the power cable. The hotplate at maximum will use all the wattage given by the SCR, and since the SCR regulates the wattage you can adjust the power supplied. It is therefore (@ stillit) possible to use a Hotplate to distill :)
Moreover, I added a thermometer connected to an arduino before the condenser, which sends the temperature to my computer with great accuracy. I can add temperature alarms and when they are reached, I get a notification on my smartphone. This gives me great accuracy when I distill, even though I use a hotplate.
I liked your explanation of the reflux process. Probably the best I've seen.
I use a power controller. It basically replicates the same application process as heating with gas, or even wood. That can't be said for a PID controller.
I think there may also be problems using a PID controller with a thumper. George seems to have nothing good to say about thumpers and I kinda wonder if that's because it creates an issue with using a PID controller - idk. Has anyone here ever used a PID controller with a thumper?
One last thing - it's my understanding that the constant on/off cycling with a PID controller can shorten the life of the heating element.
As usually you were right on point, with your analogy, well said. I think George is a very technically smart man, but so is Jess. If I were to rate, taste or purchase a finely crafted product, I would buy Jess's. A fine liquor requires craftsmanship as well as science. My all grain Bourbon, double distilled, in a pot still, always has fuller and more complex flavors. My vodka is more suited to my PID controlled reflux column. I much prefer the Bourbon.
very timely, well explained!
Great info Jesse, I had thought about getting one but after researching I came to the same conclusion. I think I’d rather be more hands on than not, although I do get it why some folks use them. Thinking instead of getting a voltage regulator for more control over the boilIng point.. cheers!
PID is just a the "brains" it looks at an input signal, then adjusts an output signal. It is like you adjusting the burner knob on a stove to keep the bacon in the pan from burning. That's all it is.
i manually use a voltage regulator and just watch the temp myself while i do a pot still run. if i pack my column to do reflux, i find it easily sits at 78.8C for a LONG time and i get 92-95% ABV pretty easily. i got back into distilling this year and at the start i just decided to play around with the voltage box and write down what i did each time i distilled. it doesn't take long to work out what to set the thing at to get it doing what you want it to do.
i think the real difficulty is taking notes that will be useful in the future when you want to try to recreate a product you've made. i just hope i can recreate something that i make that is nice.
What you said at ~11:30 is exactly right. As the abv of the wash goes down, to maintain the same purity of product you need to increase the reflux ratio. If you are using liquid management, your collection in ml/min is set by your needle valve, so you traditionally close it a little more. However if you want the process to be automatic and you don't want to change your needle valve setting, assuming your condenser is not being overwhelmed by the amount of heat being sent up the column, you can increase your reflux ratio by increasing the amount of vapour being sent up (and thus reflux being sent down) the column.
So, counter intuitively, as the vapour temperature at the head goes up, you want to increase the heat going into the boiler, to increase reflux and keep the purity of the product high (and thus lower again the boiling point of the product). This is sort of the opposite of what a typical PID does, but it isn't hard to make a system that is similar to a PID but has this opposite feedback.
It's really not different on a pot still as you also need to increase the energy being put into the boiler as well.
A PID need not be complex to use. Many have a manual mode that you can switch to and use it like any other power controller. This then allows the PID to be the best of both worlds. Use it in manual mode for distilling as power controller and use it for Temperature control with a sensor in the boiler for heating water to strike temp (and hold it) for mashing.
Also you can use it "George Style" as well but you want to NOT use auto tune but use dialed in I & D functions. If you do this you can set the PID up to apply say 22% power max when trying to increase temp. Sort of like a power controller done using PID. The advantage of this is that you can set the temp at your end of heads/start of hearts and the still will nearly come to a stop. You'll get a clean cutover. Then you up the temp to end of hearts/start of tails and you'll get a clean cutover at that point as well. You will need to adjust settings a couple times to use it like this throughout the run.
Not my style but can be done. I prefer to use an DSPR400 www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=559 with the sensor in the boiler set to 210-212 so it turns off when I've pulled everything I can/want and the boiler is devoid of alcohol. Then I use a proportional Johnson needle valve connected to a PID to control reflux water temperature monitoring the temp of water in the reflux condenser. I have temp probes at the top, 1/2 way down my column and bottom of collumn. In this fashion I have temps for condenser, boiler top/middle/bottom of column. Watching the temps of the column itself I can SEE how much reflux is going on in the column. Best of all worlds.
With propane less wires and temp checking bye and bye a pid does not watch your still or its process for you.
@@ratpackcolorado No comparison electric to gas as far as running goes. Electric is way easier to control as you can dial in the same energy input every time. Can't do that on propane as the pressure in the bottle will affect your energy. Nothing like running out or having to change a propane tank mid run. :)
I've got propane, natural gas, steam and electric stills and for control electric is easy (regardless of controller).
As a T500 user I control the water flow not the boil temp, what I have been looking for is a variable water control PID that will vary the cooling water flow to keep a constant output water temp. I find half way through my batches the still goes into a wave of temp high temp low as I try to control it, it's the worse part of stilling. Thanks for your videos, I love them.
Awesome video so helpful keep it up man
Agree with you 100% Jesse. A steady power input (you can set this with a voltage controller on the electrical element) results in a steady vapor quantity when the liquid boils and you control the product collection rate with the reflux condenser (dephlegmator) but you need to monitor and evaluate for heads, hearts and tails. A PID that reduces or cuts power when a set temperature is reached reduces vapour quantity and therefore reflux makes it less efficient. The only benefit I see is for those new to distilling, running at set temperatures helps separate most of the foreshots without any need to monitor by assessing what comes off the still. After these come off below 78°C you can increase the temperature set point to collect more ethanol but it must be less efficient and give some smearing as the reflux rate drops.
variable temp control allows more for experimentation and tuning which is a big part of the "craft" side of the hobby which is what I love about it. in my opinion
As a total newbie following comes in my mind for PID benefit.
When amount of vapor is reduced by turning off heating element then column has more time to cool and that way increase the reflux when vapor is again rising.
Now this will increase distilling time as column heats and cools but isn't that also helping reflux?
Seen many of George's and Jesse's videos. They are great. Thank you very much for the effort.
Love you expectation, makes perfect sense to me. Cheers
I have a CCVM with SPP using a PID, works great.
Only thing to note, I had to insulated the entire Column.
I am on both ends of the pendulum swing. A bit of background. As a consulting engineer, I've worked on projects for companies like Nestle's where we batch up to 20,000 gallons of product in a single batch. In order to get a consistent product every time, regardless of batch size, literally hundreds of control inputs, (temp, pressure, flow, etc.), are used to modulate processes, and outputs. IF you want to create the same product, over and over, yes you can use automated control systems to "REFINE" your process, and yes, there are lots of places you can use a PID in the hobby to tweak that process.
On the other hand, I'm also an artist and chef. My personal goal is to refine the flavor in my wash, and carry those flavors over into the spirit. My wines and washes are delicious IMO. I put a lot of work into those flavors, and I am going to be experimenting with ways to bring those flavors over into the distilled product. Frankly, I could care less what the ABV is coming out, as long as the flavor profiles are delicious. In that regard, I'm working on a still design that I hope will increase the output flavor integrity and flavor profiles of the wash going in. This is just me. The process I'm working towards is, small, varied, batches. It's more art than science. I'm working with different wash recipes each time. Perhaps I'll settle into a few "standard" recipes, but I'll always be playing with something different. I think this personal desire favors the FEEL for how each batch is running. Over time, automation may enhance that, but being able to make on the fly adjustments to multiple inputs in small batches is more important.
This is a long winded way to say, it depends on what YOU want to achieve. In general, I agree, 1 PID is not a failsafe device for the quality of your spirit. Multiple PIDs, applied to multiple stages of your process, and fine tuned to a control algorithm for a particular and highly standardized input will increase the consistency of your product. However, that can be consistently good, or consistently mediocre, or consistently bad. Until you have the tech tuned to consistently good, you're working on "feel." IMO
For what it's worth, I have come to believe one is never going to distill a flavored wash and get the flavor you expect out in the final product. There are some exceptions with some grains like corn, but if you think your tasty peach mash is gonna taste like peach, you are in for a real disappointment, it won't. It might have what we call "the character" of peach flavor but it won't be greatly noticeable. This is why all commercial distillers add flavors afterwards. Anything that comes out of a still is clear, no color and no great flavors. Wine and beer are different because they are not distilled.
@@skyhookspirits I'm aware of that. It's a matter of degrees, and a matter of process. I'm building a still of unique character, and if my results drift into my desired results, I'll be sharing on various forums, and optimizing design elements that are moving in the direction I desire. :) I'm a tinkerer. No technology that I play with gets left as is. I'm always pushing to find the edges. In this case, it does no good to share specifics at this point, because I'm approaching it from such a different direction, that it's hard to envision the possible end result based upon traditional processes. My prediction is, it will be an exceptionally low ABV output as compared to other processes. Also, distillation is not my final process. I could be chasing a fool's errand, then again, I have patents in many different areas because I see processes a bit differently than most. I know that I like what I'm getting so far. :)
@@twoartistic I been a tinkerer, inventor, and fabricator all my life. I've built many distilling devices and understand what you are thinking, but understand you aren't the first to believe you can reinvent the wheel. Brewers over thousands of years have dreamed the same about doing it better. Truth is there really isn't much to improve on that hasn't already been tried.
I wish you good luck, but think you'll gain more by refining technique over equipment.
I hear a lot of misinformation browsing through videos everywhere. As a 30 year Refinery process control operator who has run dozens of distillation columns, from quench, reformers, strippers, crude, finishing, glacial, and even azeotrope columns, anywhere from 60 to 260 feet tall and 20 foot in diameter , some under vacuum, some high pressure and some multi draw configurations. It is entertaining to watch people on UA-cam, social media and forums talking about distillation and the components of fractionation. There's so much more to it than most will ever know. Like Delta P. across trays, or loading the column, trey balance vapor pressure. volatility, overhead, reflux, min flow, base level, pressure and level profiles, flow and temp control, cascade, master and slave configurations in you system. We also have to tune PID controllers to work in conjunction with other process variables. Today we use HMI rather than PLC. My point being. You're not equipped with to skills tech or finances to run a home still like a chemical plant or refinery, not even the best of distilleries are 1/10th as efficient as they'd like to be. So try to stop over complicating things and have fun with the hobby and experimenting.
Started with a PID based on George’s design. Thank you George. Created some great product, however it was taking a LOT of my time to monitor & make slight adjustments (up to 11 hrs for a 40L charge). Built an SCR and reduced process time by 4.5 hrs!! End product is equal when comparing same washes. I do believe the foreshots are slightly more compressed with the PID, by setting at temp lower than theoretical ethanol boiling point, however not worth the extra time. Definitely sticking with the SCR.
I very much doubt you built an SCR. You likely built a control system using an SCR.
What controls your SCR? In a control system PID is the brains, SCR is the dumb muscle.
Misconception #3. The vapour from the kettle isn't going to start and stop. Kettles have huge thermal mass. When you shut off the power to a pot of water near it's boiling point, steam (water vapour) continues to come off the water.
PIDs can be programmed to have various actuation frequencies. Conventional stove top elements turn on for a few seconds and then turn off for a few. PIDs can be programmed to turn on and off up to 100 times per second. Between the thermal mass of the wash and the very, very small on/off cycles, the vapour flow will be consistent, even when the power is being throttled.
BTW, you are right that the PID isn't controlling the temperature of the wash. The wash will hold at the boiling temp of the wash (whatever that might be) until all the wash is boiled away. Changing the power going into the wash changes the rate at which the wash goes from liquid to vapour, so it just controls the vapour rate going up the column. You mentioned that, I just wanted to say I agree. And the vapour rate going up the column controls the temperature gradient in the column and ultimately the temperature of the take off point.
You are right that one could leave the kettle power at a set level and control the water flow through the reflux condenser. You get the same desired outcome - control of the vapour temp coming off the column. Which is easier to do ? Controlling the power going into the pot, by far.
Given the choice to run the column with PID control of the vapour temp or not, I'll take with every time. The lack of take off point temp control is what turned me away from building a BOKA.
If I turn of power to the element in my boiler output ceases within several minutes, it is how I stop the vapour column to swap baskets in an offset infusion chamber.
@@kimbodious PIDs can modulate power to the heating element several times a second. The vapour going up the column will not change that fast.
You can use a temp sensor in the vapor path to control the output proof. If it sees the vapor temp rise too high it turns up the water on the reflux. Works really sweet.
Thanks for the tips bro. What do you think of using a Variac in an attempt to prevent scorching the wash? Is it pointless? Just starting to chase the craft with a Turbo500.
If you check out Georges video on fermentation that's my still in the beginning I have a 32 inch by 3 inch reflux column and a pid control built by George my column is glass so I get to see all the action and have learned to program the pid correctly so that I get 196 proof start to finish having a glass column made it easy to set dephaglanator for proper reflux but once you learn the numbers and the programming for your setup pid can't be beat it's like having a smart pwm.
Cool video, as you say, the more you can squeeze your column, the better the separation (maximum vapour/liquid contact) . The limits would be how much reflux duty you have available, how much reboil duty you have available and the hydraulic constraint of your column (tray flooding if you had trays in your column, dragging heavier components up and over the column).
Hi Jesse enjoyed that, but isn`t. something like the Genio a posh PID?
Since the conversation with George and Bearded, I’ve been waiting on this video.
Good point of view. Different, but more in line with my own thought process.
A temperature controller is handy for stripping runs. Heating element on the primary contact and set the alarm/aux contact to activated the main pump (reflux and condensing circuits) as well as a coolant radiator with fan when the head temperature is above 60°C. With some PID controllers it is possible to set time/temperature curves. While I would not recommend leaving a still unattended but having it semi-automated especially for warm up is great.
I started out with a PID, but find a variable controller much easier to control. The PID bounced around too much. You're logic is what I experience.
I tried a PID on my Boka but now only use it as an accurate digital thermometer. I prefer to use an SCR to control the power into the element. 50L Keg 2inc column 850watts produces 96-97% all day.
Ok so i work in the Petrochemical industry i actually work on and build distillation columns, frac columns and just about everything you see in a plant and then some. and so to answer a lot of questions yes PID's can be used to control and maintain the temperature of a unit be it a still, a boiler or whatever but its not generally used as a stand alone application. usually its used in combination with other methods of measuring temp. in the case of a distillation column "In the context of a 200 foot tower" the content of your draw the head temp. the liquid temp in the boiler and separate measurements and different stages of a column all measured simultaneously fed back to computer that combines the data to control temp. flow rate cooling rate so on this is the process of industrial distillation just to give everyone a picture of what's involved. Even with that it has to be constantly monitored 24/7 and operators constantly adjust different aspects of the process thru valves for cooling cutting feed increasing feed so on.
Even in a simple 5 or 26 gallon pot still its not as simple as reading the head temp and feeding it back thru a loop to your controller to the element because ass the alcohol boils off the density of the liquid in your boiler changes witch changes the boiling point of the liquid remaining so if you try to set the temp and walk away once so much alcohol boils off your still will stop producing even though you still have a lot of alcohol in your in your wash so you would still have to manually adjust the setting of your temp and monitor your draw or rather alcohol content of your draw to get as much product and as high quality product as you can.
Hope all this helps and provides some insight to everyone.
I was for a bit attempting to modify a thermal expansion valve meant for a hvac system to control the water flow through the reflux, but i haven't been able to get it to reliably work on the lower water pressures even after changing out the springs in the tx head, so might have to go with an arduino to controll a servo on a valve
Aggghhhh!! You would post this when I am on a deadline! I use a PID controller on my still in the manner you say does not lend itself to creating the highest ABV. I must say I do agree with you on that aspect. However... it does help to create a higher volume of a more consistant product. I do need to go into better detail on this just don't have the time now... I am in the US and will be ordering more of your merch!!! Thanks for some GREAT content.
Just in process of building my first still. On pot mode I'm going for PID controlling the element.
On reflux mode I'm going to control the element with SCR (vapor speed) and having PID controlling motorized 3-way valve adjusting the volume of water going into reflux condenser (head temperature).
This just tickles my engineering geekery.
I'm also going for closed cooling water loop with modified PC water-cooling setup by replacing the CPU cooler block with condenser. I would like to hear if anyone else has done this before. I'll take all the help I can get.
Thanks for great content!
I use a PID but only to control SCR. I put a dial thermometer in the column so I can see what is going on. I put the PID on manual stepping basically 0-100 I place the thermocouple in the liquid being distilled.. The percent control on is 70 percent which I know from prior runs. I watch the liquid temp and at about 170 F the magic begins. As the distilling progresses I check to see how much liquor is coming out and gradually step up the PID to raise the temperature of the liquid in still thus boiling out more liquor. Keep doing this to endpoint when I see 10% on hydrometer in my parrot. This is for pot still not reflux. I am in manual camp for reflux stills.
Excellent video. Been researching PID control for T 500 reflux still (Uk) been trying to understand how it works and just what the controller was doing. It made some sense to have a controller setting the boiling temperature of the wash, but even more to control the temperature of the cooling water as explained at the end. However, a proportional control valve is very expensive, and a variable speed controllable water pump is very expensive, as most are now brushless DC. Other than using a needle valve manually, there's only an on/off relay control option switching a DC pump on and off. May try that when I finally upgrade from an air still
Ebay is your friend for finding used control items. Yea no you can't afford the new stuff.
It is not controlling the boiling temperature of the wash (you can't listen to video) but you can control the rate the vapors are coming off. Too much heat and the vapors overwhelm your column.
@@chrisyu98 I went ahead and got a PID controller, and use it to control the flow rate through the reflux condenser. It pulse width modulates the pump, turning it on and off in a 1 second period, typically 0.2 sec on, 0.8 sec off. A DC pump with a 4m lift works fine, done 2 runs so far. Had to fit a one way valve to keep the water from draining back. Heater runs continuously in the boiler to keep the reflux going.
@@tim50stroud1 what input controls the PWM ratio? temperature of vapor?
@@chrisyu98 Its controlled by the temperature of the cooling water coming out of the condenser. That controls the pump circulating the water from a 200Lt tank round the system and keeps the outlet water at 60 deg C
I'm do not distill or make alcohol of any kind, but i like the idea, i saw the podcast, i saw quite some your and Georges videos and I'm an electronics design engineer specializing in air handling unit, electric duct heater, pellet boiler and other small microcontroller based system design. I can say that neither PID nor SCR/PWM(they are basically the same scr for ac pwm for dc power) would fit me. I would make something PID/fuzzy logic based time interval controlled heating element and reflux condenser controller. Everything that you described( adjusting the knobs, valves can be done by a small IC, you just need to write down what when how much based on what and build the thing). Hey, but what do i know, i have not made not a single run, so take my rant with a grain of salt.
good vid mate, it makes sense what your saying, no pid on a reflux..
just wondering, would the pid benefit a detuned reflux ?
Not a pid but I use a speed control on the water pump for my Cooling Management. Still learning it. Work in progress
So I know I'm late to the party but wouldn't a PID send more reflux down if you just opened the deflagnator to knock down more vapor? That way it would push more power into the element to force vapor through (causing more reflux). Great videos Jessy. It's been a long journey since the initial build video😅. Currently using LPG but researching which option for electric would be better PID or SCR
I tried PID of the element via the exit temperature, it just slowed the output rate down. I now just use a PC water pump and a custom ESP32 as a PID controller that controls the waterflow based on the exit temperature of the water cooling the column and that works pretty well.
I can see your reason for the approach Jessie, but a PID is designed not to create those pulses. If it was just the P then it would, but the integration and differentiation are there to stop the overcorrection. The best discription I've found on PIDs is for controlling rockets and how it stops them wobbling.
Mate, very well said. You have explained it expertly. PIDs have their place, but its not in kettle heat.
They are awesome to use for your heat up.
Good job sparking debate in the comments! Myself I'm at the stage of trying both to see what works. For beer the PID is a godsend. But that is 100% mash tun or kettle temp so no lag. I can see the lag from heat on and off in the kettle to result at top of column being a major problem. PID to control water flow through a coil at the point of no return makes sense to me though. Seems like something that begs experimentation.
Hi Jesse how do you balance your column?
I currently run a PID on my pot still. It is so easy. I see an SCR temp controller is like $10 on Amazon. I will try the SCR next batch. If it's any different I'll respond. Thanks for all that you do.
I run a SCR on my pot still its so easy just turn the knob till you get the output you want. Hardly have to touch it till I get into tails.
An SCR is basically the same as a PID but without a brain. The SCR needs a lot of adjusting whereas a PID will learn what to do and anticipate temp corrections way ahead of manually controlling an SCR. This learning feature sets a PID apart from all other temp controllers.
@@colahandyman67 Agreed. On a pot still, chase a flow rate, not a temperature. Once up to the initial boil, heat source can be tweaked to gradually raise the temperature to compensate for the ongoing reduced ABV while maintaining the drip rate you want to maintain quality. Optional: use a temperature limiting relay to cut things off at the point where you normally hit tails.
@@bobtheelectrician6692 Agreed on a pot still a thermometer is like an anchor on a boat, only useful when you are sitting there waiting. A reflux still is a different story.
@@skyhookspirits exactly, SCR is the dumb muscle, PID is the brain. no matter the method the SCR still needs to be told what to do.
When I upgrade my still, i plan to build a P I D and use it. Edit, I'll be sticking with a pot still, with internal heat. Thanks Jesse CHEERS. 🥃🥃
I built a PID recently and have been using it. If it figures out how to maintain your set point which seem to take quite a while it does a pretty good job of holding the temp but that is a mighty big if. I have tried George's settings and autotune 2 different PID's and 3 different k type thermocouples with all the same results. Most of the time the temp will fluctuate down 3 or 4 deg then go back to the set point and drop again. Unless I can get better more accurate results I have to call B.S. on pid's
I use a PID because my electric boiler does not have any "overheating" safety. If I get distracted and it runs out of fluid, it will shut off when the bottom of the tank reaches 95°C. Just a thing to consider if you run cheap equipment like mine.
As a new chaser, I’ll say this. I came here because after watching billions of hours (Freedom... which is something like 10 hours metric) I built a PID right out the gate. Seemed liked the newest best thing out there. I got my, ummmmm... “beer brewing equipment” and set it off to run. After chocking up my difficulty running the “stainless and copper beer brewing equipment” to user error and just being new I tried a second “wort” with an SCR that I built as a backup. And sweet 6 pound 8 ounce baby Jesus, what a difference. Everything is smoother running, I can control EVERYTHING better. I tried 6 ways to Sunday doing everything I could (including running my SCR inline with my PID to micro adjust my element) to get this PID to run what I would consider smoothly and it just isn’t possible. If I was as seasoned as either of these guys and likely had more tuned equipment I could get close, but I’m still not sure it’ll ever get to where I think it’s better than just running my SCR.
I wish I had read this before I wasted money on building a PID controller...😥
@@apburner1 Don’t get me wrong, I still use the hell out of my PID for mashing, running strike water, and beer brewing. (Just bought 2 more controllers for a DIY automated electric setup for mashing) it’ll just never have a place on my set up after fermentation is complete.
I use a Pi to convert temp data to abv linked to my phone. The phone records the above in a graph. I press a button in the app to record at what point heads/tails/hearts arrived at. Makes repeated runs with the same wash easier.
I had plans to link them to servos to take off at seperate abv using a fractional column.
Go on...I’m listening...
@@marconantel7735 It took a lot of coding but it never skips a beat for my pot still. Even accounts for sea level.
It's still very much a manual process running the still.
Good explanation.
There is no doubt that the critical variables in a process and the control instrumentation used need to be clearly defined and understood before you can include a PID in the process control system.
PIDs need to be set up well. Control Loops need to be tuned properly. The PID has three elements: a proportional, Integral and derivative term.
Even in industry It is common to set 1 or 2 of these terms to zero, because they aren’t needed or cause problems with specific processes. So the PID can be used as a simple P or I controller or a PI or PD controller.
Where you place your sensors, their accuracy and applicability can affect how well your control system works.
These days the cost of PID controllers has dropped and there are plenty of apps and programs available that enable you to tune the loops and set them up properly.
I would recommend a PID controller for any properly set up process, because of the option of setting 1 or 2 of the terms in the PID to zero.
Interestingly, AI technology is used in controlling processes today. Neural networks, fuzzy logic etc.
In home brewing situations there aren’t too many ‘auto-controllable’ variables available to the operator. The power input to the boiler or pot is an obvious one. You would need to have a control valve on the cooling water flow rate and the ability to control the reflux ratio automatically in order to exploit the power of a PID controller(s). Where’s the fun in that?
Now that I've tryid a PID thanks george I won't go back its better than sliced bread lol. Good video jessie
PID with alarm is a good safety option. Set 1st temp for when to turn on cooling (will turn off heating and alarm will sound). Set a 2nd time for max end run temp (will turn off heating and alarm will sound) Bonus is you can see what temp its at. Run 1 in head and 1 in tank. Water flow can be adjusted manually from these temps.
Fundamentally, precise temperature control can only benefit your processes. PID may assist this if it's correctly adjusted, and will definitely be detrimental if incorrectly adjusted.
I agree 100% about PIDs they disturb the balance of the colmn.
I can balance my colmn to get very accurate cuts. Yes I can get Acetone methanol and ethanol. Ok Not pure acetone or Methanol but certianly If I leave the colmn to balance for 45 min or more I can get a very specific vapour temp that can only be either acatone or methanol. If I use a wash that excludes all celulose (grain free) the amount of Methanol is almost zero. Being a qualified quality control Lab Tech helps a lot with thinking and planning.
I do use a specific design of colmn.
I belive over cooling the vapour using deflagimator or whatever you call it is a very bad idea for the overall efficency of the colmn. I use a coil that has a very high surface area and keep a close eye on the exit water temprature. It needs to be as close to the desired vapour temprature at the top of the colmn as possible. I uses a fine needle valve to control the water flow. If I change the power input into the still I will then slightly increase the water flow to just stop the outout for say 15 min or so to alow the colmn to rebalance before carefully lowering the water flow to allow product to flow again.
Dose this make a better spirit? Buggered if I know. But I like it and it satisfys the geek in me. Lol.
What if you placed the thermocouple in the boiler and fitted a thermometer to the top of the column instead? Once it reaches temp, use the pid to regulate the boiler temp keeping the flow of vapor up the column consistent and then manually adjusting the height of the cooling coil to regulate the heat at the top of the column.
I have been using a PID for a while now with my reflux still. However I use the PID not so much to control temp, which it does, but once the still is balanced (element at 100% lots of water at this point) I can slowly cut the water right back to a trickle (I run from mains water with an inline pressure regulator set at about 20-25 psi) and the PID will the reduce the power, saving both water and electricity, while producing 92-95% ABV.
Tried PID on a Boka still. Does not work.....for me. Busy building SCR controler. Have you used a Boka still? Would love a vid of you playing around with one. Build one couple of years back. Been having great results. Mainly rum and neutrals on it. Busy building new still. Bigger column. Going stainless this time. Great channel. Keep at it!
PID is good for mash / fermentation cooling and heating, the rest I agree 100% as that is how I run my reflux still
What if you use the pid with the thermo couple at the base of the reflux column not the top? For pot stills pids work great.
No that is incorrect. Probe must be at top of column. You don't want to condense the vapor until it has refluxed making its way up the column.
Hi. Q1: Is Pid controller used as on/off for temp controller, if so what range is the hysterious set at, would think max 2-5 deg? Q2: Wouldnt it be beter to use the 4-20ma output via electronic relay or scr block make for beter control, then not on/off. Ramp temp control. Just wondering folks.😊👍
My still is a beer brewing kettle by day, so it is controlled by a PID. Do you have a video on how you control your stills without one so I can understand how to manipulate my PID to work for me. I have hundreds of beer bottles that need to be condensed to a spirit soon.