Awesome to see this review, however, in the glassed-in test, it appears that the plastic fins aren't allowing enough pressure to be applied to the fin boxes, due to its extensive flex properties. Could you perform another test with glass fins which have less flex and would thus convey more pressure into the glassed-in boxes. That way it would be possible to see at which point the glassed-in boxes would actually buckle.
@@continuesurfboards4564 I’ve done over 1000 fin box repairs, and yes, this is how it goes. Fcs damage tends to rip out foam and damage the board further away from the box. Futures breaks cleanly around the box, almost 100% of the time. I do find that futures will tend to have that delam effect more often than fcs, but maybe that is because it has a higher hold tolerance. Fcs doesn’t really crack, they just break out. Fcs also tends to rip the fiberglass 4-5 inches out from the box as well, usually all the way to the rail.
this is a great test, thanks for taking the time to make the video. The funny thing is, some people watch this and think Futures. I, on the other hand, think the FCS are the better option after this video. I have broken 2 FCS2 fins early on, oddly, I have never broken a 2 tab FCS or lost a fin. I would have thought the opposite. Anyways, the reason I think FCS now is because of the breaking point. My buddy who swears by Futures, always breaks his entire fin box. I have seen him do it 3 times. The board afterwards has to go in for repairs. it costs him about $70 to $100 each time. My FCS cost me $35 for a new replacement fin and I have zero downtime. Also, it is important to note, that the times I broke my FCS2 fins, the contact was pretty bad. It was my body. I am certain if it were another type of fin, I would have broken the fin box and worse, hurt myself badly. Stitches. Anyways, both are great fins for performance but the breaking point for me is benefit and not a flaw. Cheers brahda.
Full time board repairer here (@ small kine ding repairs). FCS2s make up the overwhelming majority of my fin box repair jobs. I order FCS2 boxes monthly to restock my workshop. Fusions I order roughly twice a year, FCS 1 plugs I order every 3 to 4 months and Futures I order once to twice a year. I will never put an FCS2 box in one of my shapes and if I were the type of person to buy new boards, I would avoid anything with FCS2s. I have had this conversation with many ding repairers in many places and the rate of busted FCS2s doesn't seem to vary. The results of your test did not surprise me at all but very cool to see it visually. Well done!
When you receive boards for repair, does the physical damage correspond with the results I got on these tests? I'm especially curious to know if Futures boxes simply blow out and/or if FCS2 fracture or shear the foam off in a given area?
@@continuesurfboards4564 sorry I'm switching accounts left right and center. Yea, your results rang pretty accurate. I find with the FCS boxes, they are more likely to lift, delam and rip the surrounding glass making the repairs much harder to hide. Usually futures damage is cleaner and only breaks the glass within a few MMs of the box. In all fairness though, I think a test that measures force pushing down on the fin into the box/board is needed. The biggest reason for replacing FCS2s is because one side or end of the box has been pushed into the board in impact which compresses the foam beneath leaving a void between the box and the foam. I have little doubt that futures would win that test as well though.
@@wouteroosting4687 Majority of new surfboards come with Fcs as standard unless it's a custom, In theory you'd expect to repair more fcs boxes just because of the ratio. Of the newer boards anyway. Also depends on flex of fin, type of fin, glass job, foam construction, type of blowout etc. a lot of variables.
I've been meaning to do a test like this between FCS, Futures and glassed on fins. Glad this showed up in my feed and validated my thoughts on futures. After I lost a few fins with the original FCS round plugs I made the switch over to futures and haven't looked back and that was 18 years ago. FCS in my opinion switched over to the newer fusion style boxes and fcs2 after their inferior design with the dual plugs (they were easy to install tho), there isn't enough surface area to hold them securely in place. Seems like a case of over engineering something, what is with the two slots for FCS. Futures is a simple slot design and just works. (If I sound bias against FCS it's because fins were expensive and losing a few is not great on the wallet when i was a student, I haven't lost a fin with futures). Also the Futures 10.75" boxes are used for foils, that says how strong that design is.
I regret building up an FCS2 collection. The easy snap in feature isn't always easy and fins do fall off.. I've lost a couple and ended up just putting a single screw in anyway, totally voiding the one unique feature of FCS2s.
I would choose glass ins any day however they aren’t really available since I don’t get custom boards anymore. Atm I have two boards with the fcs2 features, Although I’ll definitely be moving to Futures in the future excuse the pun because they mimic a glass in more as well as snapping off in the box not the box getter disheveled
In My experience, surfing for 25 years, since glassons were the norm, and having boards with both sistems, I find it that when You hit an fcs fin (specially fcs1) with your body or the bottom, the fin tends to break off at the tabs, with little to no damage to the board, while with futures, being stronger, the damage is usually transfered to the board.. I prefer to replace a fin than fixing a board... Those are My 2 cents...
Thanks for your input... and with consideration to your experience, may I ask a question? When it comes to performance (not hitting things or damage to the board) do you notice a difference in the energy transfer between FCS2 and Futures fin boxes?
@@continuesurfboards4564 thanks for minding my comment... Not really, besides those details, I think they're both good systems performance wise. I mostly notice the difference between templates and materials, more than a difference between the systems.
Cool video mate and we’ll set up testing. I have a board repair business in NW Australia and would like to share my experiences with both Systems. Firstly no beach breaks here and all waves are reef breaks with reef jump off entries and exits and no beach paddle outs. Without a doubt Futures system handle a good reef grinding way worse than the FCS system. I repair around 10 Futures box’s to one FCS .Can’t say for certain which system is used more here in Australia but would say about equal I think. These are usually front on impacts and the Futures come strait out. Not uncommon to see all box’s in a board ripped out. Another area Futures tend to fail in are in twin fins using large base keel fins in light weight glassing high performance boards. I’ve removed full twin set ups and retro fitted FCS 2 box’s to stop the box’s popping out on some boards which is kinda what your testing was meant to represent, eg side loading on the fins. The glass schedule of these boards is no doubt part of the problem but seems to be more prevalent with Futures. Either way fin box repairs are probably 40% of the repair side of my business and help pay the bills and I tend to fix more Futures than FCS but who knows could be more boards out there with Futures in them. Once again very cool and interesting video mate , much appreciated.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with fin box repairs. Those real life / anecdotal observations are valuable, and sometimes more valuable, than what's done in a laboratory setting (note that my shaping bay is definitely not a legitimate lab). And it's solid, that you caught that my are a focus was on the side load forces. I actually gathered a lot of data not featured in the video. Mostly having to do with rotation of the box at a given force and how that translated in to the foam and glass. Interesting stuff! A number of other repair guys have chimed in as well. It's interesting to see the similarities and differences in their remarks and I hope the discussion continues. Thanks again- Michael
Thays the oppsite to what ive experienced as a surfer. My fcs2 boxes were constantly popping out from the slightest knock. Switched to futures and only lost one so far.
Thanks for doing this test!! It will be great to also see the difference doing the same test using fiberglass fins, I believe we will learn more. Thanks so much again 🙏🏽🙏🏽 Aloha!
I've never had an issue blowing out fin boxes in either system, but I do notice more consistency, and a better feeling flex with fcs2 fins. There are a lot of different fcs2 fins that I like in lots of different boards. It's hard for me to find a futures fin that I love, usually the flex feels soft or damp, or way too stiff. I get a lot more liveliness out of my fcs2 fins
Awesome! I think the fins popping out of the FCS is an overlooked benefit? A bit like a fuse popping instead of your car stereo blowing up....I'd rather have my fin pop out (or snap at the base...) than rip the entire box out (more likely with Futures). Maybe I'm missing something but that's how I think of it. At the end of the day....both work great though.
Agreed, which is why I often use forward screw tabs and nylon screws on the old Fins Unlimited format. Worth noting that when the FCS does break, there is greater damage to the foam blank. When the Futures breaks, it seems to come out of the foam cleaner. Six of one, half a dozen of the other ?
well said. I'd much rather replace a fin with no downtime than fix a finbox. these days, that's about 4 to 5 weeks depending on who fixes it. haha Also something that hasn't been mentioned, injury. I have hit my fins so hard at times that if it weren't for the breaking point, I would have needed stitches. One of my friends with glassed on fins had his entire hamstring cut. He was out for over a year. if he had fcs2 fins, hitting the back of the fins would have just result in a lost fin. maybe a bruise.
Brilliant experiment. Would love to see this done with the force being pulled back feom the tip of the fin, to replicate hitting an object in the water when moving forwards. The fins stick out over the box on fcs2 and ive lost plenty like this. Futures boxes cover the entire fin base. I now only have futures on new boards.
The issue I have with FCS2 boxes is the repetitive force that the boxes and board take when you push in/pull out the fins. I replaced a couple of boxes and they all cracked on the back part of the box when I was removing the fins. Is there any data on the MTF for that?
Try the fin removal tool. I got one as a gift and it works great. It puts the pressure on the fin box while pulling out the fin, so you aren't pulling on the whole fin box.
Very informative video! I'm actually pretty impressed by how both of them perform. I believe the main difference in perception of strength will be in the damage on impact. They both seem to perform perfectly fine on static load IMO.
Stoked to see you had the idea of a traditional science experiment to show the differences of both fin companies, its the best approach consumers haven't thought of yet.
Awesome video bro very cool that you make the time and effort to help surfers(and manufacturers)around the world make a choice to what gear they want to use in their glide/shred sticks💯👍🔥🙌 I wonder what the”real world” percentage is for failures/repairs coming back for the different systems, and when they do come back in for repair which system is the easiest to replace/repair? Case in point I know a legendary shaper from our neck of the woods in Aotearoa NZ who still stands by the original FCS1 system as damaged cause is minimal compared to the FCS2 system and he says when the FSC1 come back in for repair it’s usually 1 plug that needs replacing vs FCS2 system which means taking out the whole system and replacing. Interested to hear people thoughts in this. Thanks for reading👍
Always run a rear grub screw in FCS2. Never had an issue with either, although custom boards and glassed properly. What do people expect if they're landing on their fins or smashing them on the reef? 😆
Nice video. But why do you measure the sideways force? That is the force that goes into your ribs on a bad wipeout. I'd love to see this test with front, to rear force, like hitting a rock.
Thank you for your question... My focus wasn't really in comparing the endurance limits of the fin boxes. It was more aligned with seeing how each fin box respectively transfers energy from the fin to the board and from the board back to the fin again. And being that the forces we put on our fins during normal surfing activities (not an impact) are greatest in a turn (a lateral force) I went with a side-load pull. And note that I collected a ton of data not featured in the video. Fin box rotation at a given force, deflection of the foam, etc. As for impact resistance? A number of guys who repair boards professionally, have chimed in on that. And, if the topic is of interest and there's enough community support, I'll be be happy to explore that too. Let me know? Thanks again for your question.
I actually looked into having a machinist CNC cut fins made of steel for this experiment (to isolate the action, to that of, the fin box itself). However the cost of fabrication was pretty high and a number of people suggested just keeping it simple and authentic with products made by Futures and FCS respectively. But to answer your question... Yes, I'm totally open to doing more tests like this. Especially with different foams, glass materials, and fin constructions. And if the good people at Futures and FCS took interest, and helped offset the costs, I could defiantly make that happen sooner than later!
I think that the fact that the fin goes out on fc2 is very interesting. The fin box will never break in this case... After that it have no sense to continue with screwed fin. Because fc2 is about fins without screws...
I actually reckon the FCS fusion is worth a look. These use the old twin tab fins. The thing is that it's a lot more likely you'll break the fin rather than the box with this system. You can but the twin tab fins cheaply on line An instant $20 fix as opposed to a trip to the ding repair guy and probably more like $100-$150. The key is to really go to town with the resin when glassing the boxes in. That's what I do anyway. There's a lot of rocks round here and I haven't busted out a box yet.
Yes!, FCS II gives you 2 different options for securing the fin just in case one fails. The threads found on the box/plugs can easily be stripped and then the only option for Futures is to permanently resin a fin in
@@allwedoisurf 100 percent. I’ve also had futures where the bottom is too tall and I’ve had to sand fins down so the base of the fin isn’t sticking out of the box. Just a mess. Also gotten 2 boards with futures that ALREADY had the screw hole stripped and the screw never tightened down. Just turned and turned.
hey you had a video up about the AFS box, why is it down? had tried to contact them but nothing came back... im about to make my own system but wanted toknow if the company still existed 😅
Isn't this more a question of which foam/fibreglass combination is better? When a finbox blows out, it's not the box that gives way, it's the foam and lamination that gives. Maybe I'm wrong here and happy to be corrected.
To add a little more to this, I do get that the fin box comes into play as well, but I thought the more important question would be the foam/glass combination.
You're absolutely correct. While the fin box is the foundation for our fins, the foam and glass are the foundation for the fin box. So the whole of the fins and fin box system is absolutely dependent on the structure of the surrounding material. I did this test with 2lb block cut EPS foam and 6/4/4 glass, The result certainly would differ with 1.5 lb foam or 4/4/4 glass.
Ever since I busted the fcs 2 off my foot surfing Waco , I was happy that it broke off and wasn’t screwed in. The gash in my foot would of been much worse had it been locked in with a screw.
I have a sizable collection of FCS2's because I was sold on the feature of being able to just snap them in. However I've lost a few fins now and have started putting a screw on them to keep them secured. In hindsight I would have made a collection of futures.
Awesome comparison. It's like Project Farm for surfers. I switched to Future fins back in 2003 because my heavy ass blew out the FCS fin boxes on 2 different surfboards and one time I was just doing a bottom turn. I haven't had any problems with Future fins and I just got a surfboard with FCS 2 fin boxes and was thinking of investing in more fins and boards with the FCS 2 boxes but I think this will be my first and last because my 235 pound a$$ don't need any help breaking stuff.
thanks for this video, so cool to see the difference. Iv moved from FCS to Futures over the years and its been a great change but to see the strengths, its really impressive on how much force the Future boxes can take.
Have lost 4 FCS2 fins in the last two months despite using the rear grub screw and making sure they are tightened regularly. One fin somehow came out on my motorbike rack, that was strange. the other during a failed duck dive on my quad, 3 fins hit my leg and popped out. I see that loading the fins sideways makes them pop out even with the rear grub screw is in. I’m not even convinced them popping out reduced the wound on my leg as it’s a sideways load which doesn’t cut.
After watching this Im going back to FCS boxes. The reason is, I was surfing my quad and hit a close out and the board rolled over under me. I landed on the board with my hip and groin. The two big fins broke out from the impact. It was painful and I had bruises but no cuts. If the board had future fins in, there is no doubt in my mind I would have been on my way to hospital or worse
Interesting and cool experiment and video! I've thought for a while that Futures were more durable and better for your board than FCS. I'm not sure if this video confirms it, but it does offer more information. I used to work at a surf shop and whenever anyone came in with a broken fin, the damage was always worse on the FCS than the Futures. These were also the days when FCS had the old independent plugs rather than the two slots that are connected by/part of the sort of figure 8 box. I remember seeing the FCS damage would usually pull the plugs out while the Futures would usually snap the fin while the box, glass, and board were all usually still intact. Anecdotal info to make of what you will.
As a twin fin surfer and losing my share of fins due to failures of boxes, am a future fan but still see problems. Mayor problem on both fin boxes is delam between box and glass. This happen, fin gets lose and pop, it’s gone. FSC show signs much early. Possible worth looking at repeating low loading both ways and see the damage. See if the low loads soften the foam which course failure. I’m trying pins to strengthen. Ie, sticking a pen into the side foam before setting the box to allow extra resin to form pins. I’ll keep you posted as early days
Thanks for your suggestion and input.... Cycling the fin could be a fun and useful experiment. And please, let us know how your pined fin box installs go.
Perhaps usage is well below threshold to break but within range of actual field stress each has differing flex meaning FCS2 adds flex at higher stress...need field parameters
I've always been partial to future fins on all my boards. If you have the time, maybe do this test again with a swinging mallet or a weight that can be dropped on the fin from a perpendicular direction? My buddy broke both his side fin boxes (FCS2) 10 feet from shore on the first day of a trip in El Salvador. On his first paddle out he got unlucky enough to find a boulder that was just wide enough to wedge in between the fins and splay them out from the inside face. Both boxes had to be repaired over the next few days by a local shop.
Futures maybe stronger but do they surf better? They seem more stiff to me. Every 3 finned board I’ve had has been better with FCS, but twin fin boards are better with Futures. Just my opinion from my own experience.
GREAT video! One question: When you say that the FCS II Finbox is “deforming” under pressure, can you elaborate on what you mean? This “deforming” is occurring all under the glass? Are there any cracks or other damage happening to the glass/resin itself overlying the FCS II finbox?
Thanks for your question... At 60-65 lbs., the FCS2 box appeared to be buckling from within itself. This was especially notable along the space between the fin tabs. And, there was only a slight delamination of the overlying glass. Note: After the pull, the fin wobbled considerably in the FCS2 box, but the fin tabs showed no sign of stress or damage.
Awesome stuff. I run both FCS and Futures, think they're both decent systems. One thing Futures does have over FCS is the cant angle being in the fin and not the box. FCS2 so convenient.
It’s much more convenient if you need to reset on your own with minimal tools or no access to luxury’s like ding repair service, or on a rural surf trip.
I love the fact that you use the most basic scientific method to do the tests, starting with the un-bonded boxes. That is something my former boss refused to understand and didn't believe that these sort of basic trials can give valid results. Notice the term "former boss"...
Your former boss might have been right, the experimental design is poor and most of the results are not relevant to the finished product which is a composite and should only be tested as such. Unbonded boxes with no glass on the foam tells you nothing about how a finished composite will work. The strength from the backside of a finished box plays a large role in strength and needs to be accounted for. Further, this only looks at ultimate failure from lateral stress which never happens unless you hit a rock, but that's user error. Stress/strain is probably a better indicator of which box would better transmit force to the board. You might not know what you are talking about. These tests are interesting at best and professional ding repair guys in the comments are saying contradictory things regarding which box fails more often so no conclusion can be drawn.
There are so many more boards out in the wild with FCS systems. Especially in the budget range of course ding repair co. Will see large volumes of FCS repair orders. Working at a high volume surf shop doing MM revenue every year, been there’re and seen it. That being said. Been riding FCS since 1998 and have only had one board where it sort of popped through the top. But hardly. More like a reverse pressure dent. Never lost an FCSII fin either across various sizes, shapes, etc. Wife and I also ride Futures too.
It is relatively rare for fin boxes to break from lateral force, so this exercise is mostly entertainment. Typical damage comes from running into things - rocks, coral heads, or another surfboard. For a more useful experiment, test for damage cause by the leading edge of the fin striking (or being struck by) an object. The early version of FCS (with two little plugs for the fin to attach on,) could be broken by an especially forceful bottom turn, which is why it is no longer made.
Thanks for your input Kenji. You're absolutely correct that impact is the primary cause of (major) damage to fin boxes. But I wasn't testing for damage aspects... My interest here was aligned with exploring the effectiveness of each fin box to transfer useful energy from the fin to the board and, from the board back to the fin. With the fin box being the conduit of that action between the board and fin. It's about high-performance surfing and ensuring the rider gets all the available drive and control they can from their equipment. And while it's not featured in the video, I actually gathered quite a bit of data about that. Measuring the rotation of the box at a given force, deflection in the foam and glass, and other things. And there were some pretty interesting finds! That being said, quite a few people have expressed interest in me doing a series of impact tests. If that's of interest to you as well, let me know? Perhaps I'll do that too... Thanks again, Michael
I wonder if this just represents two philosphies. FCS: Don't screw fins. If they hit something hard or too much pressure is exerted on the fin they'll pop loose and you'll probably lose a fin, but your board will be safe. Futures: Screw in fins and your fins will stay in there even with over 100lbs of force. However, you might destroy someone or something in the water that your fins come in contact with. Am I missing something here?
I used both systems. But after loosing two time a fcs2 fins I used a screw on the Fcs2 to secure them. Future Fins is more simple and efficient in my opinion
The big question not being answered is: is it better for a fin to come lose easy or not? If if breaks before damaging the board isn’t that better? Just replace the fin? But if the box is so strong your board gets destroyed, isn’t that worse? When my future fin ran over someone who dropped in on me, it tore my entire fin box out.
So interesting, thanks for sharing. I've surfed FCS my whole life and love it. Never really any complaints about it but hearing loads of stories around me. Looks like I should give futures a go in the future.
In all honesty I think it comes down to how well the boxes are glassed in. The FCS2 box deforming could be a desireable thing if you think about its ability to withstand a shock.
I like both. you cannot beat the convenience of fcs2 though. I like the weight of fcs1 most but in the end in terms of performance, they are the same. One can argue that futures is better connected but let's get honest, Fanning, Slater, and a heep others, would not put world titles on the line if it made that much of a difference. Performance wise, all the same. The breaking point is lower on the fcs1 and 2 but in my opinion, that is a good thing. Better to break a fin on a surf trip and than a fin box. better not to injure yourself either. I own both and mostly buy the board based on availability. Sometimes it's futures and other times it's fcs. All good to me.
Random that this popped up on my feed, but fitting... I don't have strong opinions on many things, but fin boxes are one of them. I respect FCS for bringing a removable fin system to the market in the 90's and ran them until 2001 when I heard about Futures. FCS fist generation design was intended for the fin to break off at the tabs and save your board. That was great but they snapped off fairly easily if you were surfing a shallow beach break and when I was in my early 20s, I couldn't really afford buying new fins every few months. I'd say that 90% of my boards from 2001 til now have had Futures. I have broken 1 Futures box, and I remember it clearly as it was a freak kickout leading to me to bodyslamming the fin and sending me to the doctor for stitches. The small percentage of FCS boards...? I have broken 10-15 of my FCS. They are inferior in design and it is obvious. .. Not to mention, Futures feel more grounded to the board in general.
Yes... I have been in the Industry here in Australia makeing and repairing boards for over 40yrs...From a personal view FUTURES are better in many ways...Especially the way they perform IN THE WATER...Just like a roving set fin!. And the amount of repair work on FCS boxs is Far Greater.. Cheers Australia.
On a first simplistic read futures is better than FCS... Well to me it's the other way around and honestly make sure you get rid of the screws off on FCS2. Fins popping out is the best thing that can happen to your board. Just like in car security test you want it to deform as much as possible rather than being stiff as iron. Absorbing energy and popping out the fin is a good thing, puts less stress on your beloved board and reduces the likelihood of damage. Fins come and go and two same model pairs are almost always the same. Boards are not
I have both systems and if it is true that the Futures system is more resistant and effective, the truth is that it can be more dangerous for us. I recently fell off a wave along with my board and one of the FCS2 ends hit my thigh hard to the point that I thought due to the intense and huge pain I had a deep cut in my thigh. Fortunately that didn't happen, resulting in a huge, dark mark on my thigh for weeks and a damaged board because the FCS2 case gave way. Given that Future cases are more resistant, I don't know if in my case I would end up suffering a very deep and dangerous cut.
Futures has always been a superior set up, it's why fcs changed their set up from their original round plugs. As an ex Ding guy I had to love fcs, easy money and more regular than the busses in the South West of the UK. With some of the cheap Chinese boards you could almost blow on a fin and loosen a plug back then. Future repairs happened, but generally we're rare and had involved obvious trauma, like hitting the reef or a solid collision.
When surfing depends where and how is the impact on FCS you might lose the fin but not the fin box it happened to me, on Futures you might not lose the fin but it will damage the fin box it happened to my friend The fin replacement is cheaper than a fin box damage Another friend that is a twin fin surfer, uses Futures specially for Keel fins, he said the FCS boxes can't hold the pressure on the keels they come out with time and he made the switch I wanted to make the switch for Futures but every surf shop most of the brand new boards for sale are on FCS and if you want Futures you have to order and wait for long time Better have both I think
I've lost so many FCS2 fins because they pop out. Now i only use Futures. You should too. The whole concept behind fcs2 is that they are supposed to be tooless, however without grub screws, you lose them. Futures is a far simpler, cheaper and better system overall.
I got stabbed pretty bad on the inside of my leg surfing a futures fin it cut through my board shorts and I ended up with 12 staples. I later was surfing and fell onto the board the same way with fcs2 and the fin popped out and I just got a bad bruise. I feel like the fcs2 is a safer fin system but the futures is stronger.
Wow, I never thought about the possibility of getting stabbed by the sharp end (tip) of the fin and FCS II at least has the potential to just pop out rather than give you a possible deep flesh wound. Thanks for this new insight. I'm taking out my grub screws and don't care if I lose a fin.
I thought FCS designed there Fins and boxes to Break @ specific PPSI so less injury to a Surfer if the fins come in contact with his body. Hmmm. Subbed
If you want to know what’s stronger just look at kite surfing boards. They are put under a lot more stress from the power of the kite, hard edging for extended periods and landing big airs etc. They come with futures fins…
Thanks for your comment. And you're correct that kiteboarding puts considerably more stress on our fins and fin boxes. I surf, kite, and build both surfboards and kiteboards. And yes, the fin boxes on my kiteboards are installed with considerably more reinforcement. And true to your suggestion... nearly all of my kiteboard orders include Futures fin boxes.
Futures boxes are much heavier than FCS II, plus you get better flex through the board with FCS II. In 30 years of surfing ive never broken a fcs fin or fin box. And to end it all, i dont want to have to worry about fin keys when im rushing to get in the water.
There are anecdotal reports all over the Internet of FCS 2 fin boxes winding up with cracks in the fiberglass. That's just one reason I went with Futures from the beginning.
pretty safe if i have to put 150+pounds of force on a thruster before it even fails. dont think there is ever that much lateral force on it, defo if i only weigh 140pounds myself
Awesome video! Although lots of potential for this study to not be a very good representation. A few thoughts that come to mind that could heavily influence the results: 1) Were fins the exact same size? 2) Did both fins claim to have the same amount of flex/strength? 3)Were the anchor bolts drilled in the exact same locations on both fins? A change here could easily change the force/moment on the box Overall still a great video that gets people thinking, but a warning to all (as the video mentions) this is amateur science. For a science experiment to be proven true, it must be repeatable by others and produce the same results. So dont go throwing away those FCS2's after this.
Good questions... I really appreciate your points of concern and especially that you took the time to address it in a comment. 1) Futures and FSC make a number of templates that are nearly identical. Futures has three base templates and FCS has four. The fins I used in this experiment are not the same but are close in form. 2) And yes... Flex and strength are certainly a factor that can influence the outcome of a result. But a key thing to note is that the force applied to each fin box is being transmitted through a similar type fin that's made by the respective manufacturer. (IE: Not a carbon fiber blend vs plastic or an authentic vs counterfit product). 3) And yes, the holes for the anchor bolts are drilled to the same arm (XYZ) and they're oversized by 40%. Like-for-like. And please know, that I totally and completely respect your point that this is just amateur science (emphasized). In retrospect, I see a number of things that could have been done differently, and, that would have improved the data. It's just a matter of starting somewhere and moving forward. Hopefully, and perhaps with enough community interest, and some support from Futures and FCS, I can improve upon this and take it to a new level. Thanks again!
@@continuesurfboards4564 Awesome replies!!! As an engineer who loves to surf (and do some amateur science myself), I am absolutely going to subscribe and watch/learn from your videos. Hope to see more from you.
@@continuesurfboards4564 the actual fin box shape/design/depth of the fin boxes disperses forces differently to each other. The lip and bottom of the futures finbox encourages to flip and 'snap' out like the bottom of a boat rocking back and forth, It wants to pivot out. Hence the minimal foam damage in test 2. The length and base of futures fins/boxes are designed to have greater area to disperse force compared to FCS's 2 tab system. There's only 1 fail point in Futures which is strong but when it goes, it goes. Fcs has multiple from the fins to the individual fin tabs to the mechanism of the actual fcs block to the structure of the board around it. I'd like to also mention that the FCS system relies on the structure around it to disperse force e.g. glass + foam. Which is why the figure 8 outline of the FCS fin box took out more foam in test 2. The flex and construction of the fin in my opinion plays a bigger part in this experiment. The more the fin flexes the less amount of force is actually going through to the fin box - like a sponge. Also this leads to warping of the arm gradually changing the angle of force. But great video and amateur + anecdotal science at it's best, this is why we re-test and evaluate. I was looking at this project through the eyes of judging it as one of my students final science projects (Senior physics teacher). Best of luck in the future super stoked that this was made!
FCS boxes come in 0, 5, and 9 degrees. With future they pre-cant the fins instead of the boxes. This means if you have a fair bit of V or concave and your using a furure fin with a certain amount of cant you may be getting more or less cant than expected. The average joe probably doesnt know the difference but something to be aware of when using futures. I was recently surprised to see that kelly had switched to futures boxs on his boards but then he is the goat and can ride a barn door better than most on a HPS. Good video, kind of interesting but a bit of a moot point because we see both of these boxs used all over the world and not many surfers are busting out boxs so the test doesnt really prove anything.
Thanks for your input... You're absolutely correct that FCS boxes have the cant angle built into the box and Futures incorporates that angle to the fin. I can't speak for other board makers, but we always zero our fin boxes to accommodate the respective FCS cant angle or the Futures 6.5' install dummy fin, regardless of the hull design. And know that this project wasn't about proving which box is stronger, but more so, exploring which fin box transfers energy better between the fin and the board. I gathered quite a bit of data that wasn't featured in the video and plan to do a follow-up video in the near future (it will also include anecdotal input from the comments received herein). Thanks again- Michael
For the average surfer like myself, in average 2-6ft conditions, who might change the fins once or twice a year, and avoids hitting objects like the plague. Does this stuff really matter? This all gives me the impression that FCS 2 are selling defective gear. Interesting but confusing for average joes like myself.
Please post more insights Continue Surf. I have always considered Futures as the gold standard but FCS fin failing early is actually a good thing. I would rather replace a fin than repair the box.
Interesting test. Amazing how much pressure they both can endure! I've been surfing since the mid 90's. Back then I had the FCS 2 tab (original models) which seemed to be the most problematic (losing fins) or the tab plug caving in from too much pressure. I also had tons of experience with Futures fins (don't think I ever lost a fin). This last 12 years I've surfed with only FCS II. I lost only one fin. I keep the fins screwed down lightly. What I don't like about the FCS II boxes is that the glass around the fin boxes often splinter or get hairline cracks. I have an expansive FCS fin collection and a smaller Futures fin collection but I'm seriously considering going with Futures for my next board. I like the way the fin to the fin box appears to be more flush on the board. After all, at the end of the day, we all pay lots of cash for a board these days and we want it to last as long as possible. At the end of the day, it seems like a toss up but I am going with Futures for my next board.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Awesome to see this review, however, in the glassed-in test, it appears that the plastic fins aren't allowing enough pressure to be applied to the fin boxes, due to its extensive flex properties. Could you perform another test with glass fins which have less flex and would thus convey more pressure into the glassed-in boxes. That way it would be possible to see at which point the glassed-in boxes would actually buckle.
8 year ding repairer here. We reset 4-5 FCSII boxes a week. Futures we do 3-4 a month. FCSII is a poor system.
When you receive repairs... Does the damage correspond with the results I produced in these pull tests?
@@continuesurfboards4564 yes 100%.
I order all my boards with Futures.
@@continuesurfboards4564 I’ve done over 1000 fin box repairs, and yes, this is how it goes. Fcs damage tends to rip out foam and damage the board further away from the box. Futures breaks cleanly around the box, almost 100% of the time. I do find that futures will tend to have that delam effect more often than fcs, but maybe that is because it has a higher hold tolerance. Fcs doesn’t really crack, they just break out. Fcs also tends to rip the fiberglass 4-5 inches out from the box as well, usually all the way to the rail.
@@jonnyzuma6884 Thanks for your input... appreciated!
That could suggest more FCS2 systems out there
this is a great test, thanks for taking the time to make the video. The funny thing is, some people watch this and think Futures. I, on the other hand, think the FCS are the better option after this video. I have broken 2 FCS2 fins early on, oddly, I have never broken a 2 tab FCS or lost a fin. I would have thought the opposite. Anyways, the reason I think FCS now is because of the breaking point. My buddy who swears by Futures, always breaks his entire fin box. I have seen him do it 3 times. The board afterwards has to go in for repairs. it costs him about $70 to $100 each time. My FCS cost me $35 for a new replacement fin and I have zero downtime.
Also, it is important to note, that the times I broke my FCS2 fins, the contact was pretty bad. It was my body. I am certain if it were another type of fin, I would have broken the fin box and worse, hurt myself badly. Stitches. Anyways, both are great fins for performance but the breaking point for me is benefit and not a flaw. Cheers brahda.
Full time board repairer here (@ small kine ding repairs). FCS2s make up the overwhelming majority of my fin box repair jobs. I order FCS2 boxes monthly to restock my workshop. Fusions I order roughly twice a year, FCS 1 plugs I order every 3 to 4 months and Futures I order once to twice a year.
I will never put an FCS2 box in one of my shapes and if I were the type of person to buy new boards, I would avoid anything with FCS2s. I have had this conversation with many ding repairers in many places and the rate of busted FCS2s doesn't seem to vary. The results of your test did not surprise me at all but very cool to see it visually. Well done!
When you receive boards for repair, does the physical damage correspond with the results I got on these tests? I'm especially curious to know if Futures boxes simply blow out and/or if FCS2 fracture or shear the foam off in a given area?
@@continuesurfboards4564 sorry I'm switching accounts left right and center.
Yea, your results rang pretty accurate. I find with the FCS boxes, they are more likely to lift, delam and rip the surrounding glass making the repairs much harder to hide.
Usually futures damage is cleaner and only breaks the glass within a few MMs of the box.
In all fairness though, I think a test that measures force pushing down on the fin into the box/board is needed. The biggest reason for replacing FCS2s is because one side or end of the box has been pushed into the board in impact which compresses the foam beneath leaving a void between the box and the foam. I have little doubt that futures would win that test as well though.
Thanks for your input... appreciated!
Same here, nearly no Futures repairs, LOTS of fcsii
@@wouteroosting4687 Majority of new surfboards come with Fcs as standard unless it's a custom, In theory you'd expect to repair more fcs boxes just because of the ratio. Of the newer boards anyway. Also depends on flex of fin, type of fin, glass job, foam construction, type of blowout etc. a lot of variables.
I've been meaning to do a test like this between FCS, Futures and glassed on fins. Glad this showed up in my feed and validated my thoughts on futures. After I lost a few fins with the original FCS round plugs I made the switch over to futures and haven't looked back and that was 18 years ago. FCS in my opinion switched over to the newer fusion style boxes and fcs2 after their inferior design with the dual plugs (they were easy to install tho), there isn't enough surface area to hold them securely in place. Seems like a case of over engineering something, what is with the two slots for FCS. Futures is a simple slot design and just works. (If I sound bias against FCS it's because fins were expensive and losing a few is not great on the wallet when i was a student, I haven't lost a fin with futures).
Also the Futures 10.75" boxes are used for foils, that says how strong that design is.
I regret building up an FCS2 collection. The easy snap in feature isn't always easy and fins do fall off.. I've lost a couple and ended up just putting a single screw in anyway, totally voiding the one unique feature of FCS2s.
I would choose glass ins any day however they aren’t really available since I don’t get custom boards anymore.
Atm I have two boards with the fcs2 features, Although I’ll definitely be moving to Futures in the future excuse the pun because they mimic a glass in more as well as snapping off in the box not the box getter disheveled
The good thing about fcs is that it is safer, I would rather lose a fin than cut myself or someone who has their fin come off.
Thanks for taking the time using science to prove what we already knew
In My experience, surfing for 25 years, since glassons were the norm, and having boards with both sistems, I find it that when You hit an fcs fin (specially fcs1) with your body or the bottom, the fin tends to break off at the tabs, with little to no damage to the board, while with futures, being stronger, the damage is usually transfered to the board.. I prefer to replace a fin than fixing a board... Those are My 2 cents...
Thanks for your input... and with consideration to your experience, may I ask a question?
When it comes to performance (not hitting things or damage to the board) do you notice a difference in the energy transfer between FCS2 and Futures fin boxes?
@@continuesurfboards4564 thanks for minding my comment... Not really, besides those details, I think they're both good systems performance wise. I mostly notice the difference between templates and materials, more than a difference between the systems.
Cool video mate and we’ll set up testing. I have a board repair business in NW Australia and would like to share my experiences with both Systems. Firstly no beach breaks here and all waves are reef breaks with reef jump off entries and exits and no beach paddle outs. Without a doubt Futures system handle a good reef grinding way worse than the FCS system. I repair around 10 Futures box’s to one FCS .Can’t say for certain which system is used more here in Australia but would say about equal I think. These are usually front on impacts and the Futures come strait out. Not uncommon to see all box’s in a board ripped out. Another area Futures tend to fail in are in twin fins using large base keel fins in light weight glassing high performance boards.
I’ve removed full twin set ups and retro fitted FCS 2 box’s to stop the box’s popping out on some boards which is kinda what your testing was meant to represent, eg side loading on the fins. The glass schedule of these boards is no doubt part of the problem but seems to be more prevalent with Futures. Either way fin box repairs are probably 40% of the repair side of my business and help pay the bills and I tend to fix more Futures than FCS but who knows could be more boards out there with Futures in them. Once again very cool and interesting video mate , much appreciated.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with fin box repairs. Those real life / anecdotal observations are valuable, and sometimes more valuable, than what's done in a laboratory setting (note that my shaping bay is definitely not a legitimate lab).
And it's solid, that you caught that my are a focus was on the side load forces. I actually gathered a lot of data not featured in the video. Mostly having to do with rotation of the box at a given force and how that translated in to the foam and glass. Interesting stuff!
A number of other repair guys have chimed in as well. It's interesting to see the similarities and differences in their remarks and I hope the discussion continues.
Thanks again- Michael
Thays the oppsite to what ive experienced as a surfer. My fcs2 boxes were constantly popping out from the slightest knock. Switched to futures and only lost one so far.
Thanks for doing this test!! It will be great to also see the difference doing the same test using fiberglass fins, I believe we will learn more. Thanks so much again 🙏🏽🙏🏽 Aloha!
so true
I've never had an issue blowing out fin boxes in either system, but I do notice more consistency, and a better feeling flex with fcs2 fins. There are a lot of different fcs2 fins that I like in lots of different boards. It's hard for me to find a futures fin that I love, usually the flex feels soft or damp, or way too stiff. I get a lot more liveliness out of my fcs2 fins
Awesome! I think the fins popping out of the FCS is an overlooked benefit? A bit like a fuse popping instead of your car stereo blowing up....I'd rather have my fin pop out (or snap at the base...) than rip the entire box out (more likely with Futures). Maybe I'm missing something but that's how I think of it. At the end of the day....both work great though.
Agreed, which is why I often use forward screw tabs and nylon screws on the old Fins Unlimited format. Worth noting that when the FCS does break, there is greater damage to the foam blank. When the Futures breaks, it seems to come out of the foam cleaner. Six of one, half a dozen of the other ?
except it pops with barely any force. compared to a future that takes over 100 lbs to reach its breaking point
well said. I'd much rather replace a fin with no downtime than fix a finbox. these days, that's about 4 to 5 weeks depending on who fixes it. haha Also something that hasn't been mentioned, injury. I have hit my fins so hard at times that if it weren't for the breaking point, I would have needed stitches. One of my friends with glassed on fins had his entire hamstring cut. He was out for over a year. if he had fcs2 fins, hitting the back of the fins would have just result in a lost fin. maybe a bruise.
@@ThomyeSurfs that's so true. Coming down on the backside of a fin is a scary thought. Less so if they pop out.
Been glassing for almost 30 years, and first, I appreciate this test, and second, ALL my boards have Future systems in them…
How would I get into glassing? Would love to do it
Need to use quality fins for that test. Who uses plastic flexible fins?
Made the switch to futures a few years back now and haven’t looked back. Way better design in every way and loads more options to choose from too! 🤙
Brilliant experiment. Would love to see this done with the force being pulled back feom the tip of the fin, to replicate hitting an object in the water when moving forwards. The fins stick out over the box on fcs2 and ive lost plenty like this. Futures boxes cover the entire fin base. I now only have futures on new boards.
Great suggestion!
same here. just had 2 boards swapped out (fcs for futures) great experiment. cheers!
FCS design and intention is that if you hit an object in the water that the fin breaks off.
@@danjohnson3756 yeah but they come out way too easy.
I just lost a machado keel for my quad set. It just fell out on a lackluster day surfing beach break.
The issue I have with FCS2 boxes is the repetitive force that the boxes and board take when you push in/pull out the fins. I replaced a couple of boxes and they all cracked on the back part of the box when I was removing the fins. Is there any data on the MTF for that?
Try the fin removal tool. I got one as a gift and it works great. It puts the pressure on the fin box while pulling out the fin, so you aren't pulling on the whole fin box.
Very informative video! I'm actually pretty impressed by how both of them perform. I believe the main difference in perception of strength will be in the damage on impact. They both seem to perform perfectly fine on static load IMO.
Stoked to see you had the idea of a traditional science experiment to show the differences of both fin companies, its the best approach consumers haven't thought of yet.
Chris, Jeremy here. i thought the same too.
@@jeremystanley6815 Yeah mate, stoked to see you over here!
Awesome video bro very cool that you make the time and effort to help surfers(and manufacturers)around the world make a choice to what gear they want to use in their glide/shred sticks💯👍🔥🙌 I wonder what the”real world” percentage is for failures/repairs coming back for the different systems, and when they do come back in for repair which system is the easiest to replace/repair? Case in point I know a legendary shaper from our neck of the woods in Aotearoa NZ who still stands by the original FCS1 system as damaged cause is minimal compared to the FCS2 system and he says when the FSC1 come back in for repair it’s usually 1 plug that needs replacing vs FCS2 system which means taking out the whole system and replacing. Interested to hear people thoughts in this. Thanks for reading👍
Always run a rear grub screw in FCS2. Never had an issue with either, although custom boards and glassed properly. What do people expect if they're landing on their fins or smashing them on the reef? 😆
Nice video. But why do you measure the sideways force? That is the force that goes into your ribs on a bad wipeout. I'd love to see this test with front, to rear force, like hitting a rock.
Me too! So many boards just hit other boards or rocks!
Thank you for your question...
My focus wasn't really in comparing the endurance limits of the fin boxes. It was more aligned with seeing how each fin box respectively transfers energy from the fin to the board and from the board back to the fin again. And being that the forces we put on our fins during normal surfing activities (not an impact) are greatest in a turn (a lateral force) I went with a side-load pull.
And note that I collected a ton of data not featured in the video. Fin box rotation at a given force, deflection of the foam, etc.
As for impact resistance? A number of guys who repair boards professionally, have chimed in on that. And, if the topic is of interest and there's enough community support, I'll be be happy to explore that too. Let me know?
Thanks again for your question.
If possible, can you do the test with the stiffer fiberglass honeycomb fins.
I actually looked into having a machinist CNC cut fins made of steel for this experiment (to isolate the action, to that of, the fin box itself). However the cost of fabrication was pretty high and a number of people suggested just keeping it simple and authentic with products made by Futures and FCS respectively.
But to answer your question... Yes, I'm totally open to doing more tests like this. Especially with different foams, glass materials, and fin constructions.
And if the good people at Futures and FCS took interest, and helped offset the costs, I could defiantly make that happen sooner than later!
I think that the fact that the fin goes out on fc2 is very interesting. The fin box will never break in this case...
After that it have no sense to continue with screwed fin. Because fc2 is about fins without screws...
Repair man here with 5 years experience, Very good testing. All this is true, Well done. I replaced 80% fcs, 20% future box.
Thanks for the complement and especially for sharing your firsthand knowledge.
That number also reflects the market share FCS has though.
Can we see a test with glassed on fins?
I actually reckon the FCS fusion is worth a look. These use the old twin tab fins. The thing is that it's a lot more likely you'll break the fin rather than the box with this system. You can but the twin tab fins cheaply on line An instant $20 fix as opposed to a trip to the ding repair guy and probably more like $100-$150. The key is to really go to town with the resin when glassing the boxes in. That's what I do anyway. There's a lot of rocks round here and I haven't busted out a box yet.
Have had problems with both. I opt FCS because there’s more that can go right. A stripped Futures screw hole and game over.
Yes!, FCS II gives you 2 different options for securing the fin just in case one fails. The threads found on the box/plugs can easily be stripped and then the only option for Futures is to permanently resin a fin in
@@allwedoisurf 100 percent. I’ve also had futures where the bottom is too tall and I’ve had to sand fins down so the base of the fin isn’t sticking out of the box. Just a mess. Also gotten 2 boards with futures that ALREADY had the screw hole stripped and the screw never tightened down. Just turned and turned.
Aloha! Great Vid! What's the volume a Futures fin box and a FCS fin box? Mahalos!
hey you had a video up about the AFS box, why is it down?
had tried to contact them but nothing came back... im about to make my own system but wanted toknow if the company still existed 😅
Confirming what I assumed based on my experience thanks cool video
Pollute the ocean 1 fin at a time.
Great video now people can see why so many loose their fin at 15lbs.
Isn't this more a question of which foam/fibreglass combination is better? When a finbox blows out, it's not the box that gives way, it's the foam and lamination that gives. Maybe I'm wrong here and happy to be corrected.
To add a little more to this, I do get that the fin box comes into play as well, but I thought the more important question would be the foam/glass combination.
You're absolutely correct. While the fin box is the foundation for our fins, the foam and glass are the foundation for the fin box. So the whole of the fins and fin box system is absolutely dependent on the structure of the surrounding material.
I did this test with 2lb block cut EPS foam and 6/4/4 glass, The result certainly would differ with 1.5 lb foam or 4/4/4 glass.
Ever since I busted the fcs 2 off my foot surfing Waco , I was happy that it broke off and wasn’t screwed in. The gash in my foot would of been much worse had it been locked in with a screw.
I have a sizable collection of FCS2's because I was sold on the feature of being able to just snap them in. However I've lost a few fins now and have started putting a screw on them to keep them secured. In hindsight I would have made a collection of futures.
Great video!!!! Amazing resaults
Thank you!!
Awesome comparison. It's like Project Farm for surfers. I switched to Future fins back in 2003 because my heavy ass blew out the FCS fin boxes on 2 different surfboards and one time I was just doing a bottom turn. I haven't had any problems with Future fins and I just got a surfboard with FCS 2 fin boxes and was thinking of investing in more fins and boards with the FCS 2 boxes but I think this will be my first and last because my 235 pound a$$ don't need any help breaking stuff.
You sparked my curiosity and I checked out Project Farm. What a great channel... Subscribed!
Switched to futures for the same reason did the same thing in 2010
thanks for this video, so cool to see the difference. Iv moved from FCS to Futures over the years and its been a great change but to see the strengths, its really impressive on how much force the Future boxes can take.
Have lost 4 FCS2 fins in the last two months despite using the rear grub screw and making sure they are tightened regularly.
One fin somehow came out on my motorbike rack, that was strange. the other during a failed duck dive on my quad, 3 fins hit my leg and popped out.
I see that loading the fins sideways makes them pop out even with the rear grub screw is in. I’m not even convinced them popping out reduced the wound on my leg as it’s a sideways load which doesn’t cut.
After watching this Im going back to FCS boxes. The reason is, I was surfing my quad and hit a close out and the board rolled over under me. I landed on the board with my hip and groin. The two big fins broke out from the impact. It was painful and I had bruises but no cuts. If the board had future fins in, there is no doubt in my mind I would have been on my way to hospital or worse
Interesting and cool experiment and video! I've thought for a while that Futures were more durable and better for your board than FCS. I'm not sure if this video confirms it, but it does offer more information. I used to work at a surf shop and whenever anyone came in with a broken fin, the damage was always worse on the FCS than the Futures. These were also the days when FCS had the old independent plugs rather than the two slots that are connected by/part of the sort of figure 8 box. I remember seeing the FCS damage would usually pull the plugs out while the Futures would usually snap the fin while the box, glass, and board were all usually still intact. Anecdotal info to make of what you will.
Excellent video and comparison. I think it would be more precise if you use fiber glass fins
As a twin fin surfer and losing my share of fins due to failures of boxes, am a future fan but still see problems.
Mayor problem on both fin boxes is delam between box and glass. This happen, fin gets lose and pop, it’s gone. FSC show signs much early. Possible worth looking at repeating low loading both ways and see the damage. See if the low loads soften the foam which course failure. I’m trying pins to strengthen. Ie, sticking a pen into the side foam before setting the box to allow extra resin to form pins. I’ll keep you posted as early days
Thanks for your suggestion and input.... Cycling the fin could be a fun and useful experiment. And please, let us know how your pined fin box installs go.
I’ve lost 3 fins using fcs II. Futures all day.
Excellent investigation. Futures is better for sure.
Perhaps usage is well below threshold to break but within range of actual field stress each has differing flex meaning FCS2 adds flex at higher stress...need field parameters
I've always been partial to future fins on all my boards.
If you have the time, maybe do this test again with a swinging mallet or a weight that can be dropped on the fin from a perpendicular direction?
My buddy broke both his side fin boxes (FCS2) 10 feet from shore on the first day of a trip in El Salvador. On his first paddle out he got unlucky enough to find a boulder that was just wide enough to wedge in between the fins and splay them out from the inside face. Both boxes had to be repaired over the next few days by a local shop.
I go FCS because the fins used to weigh a lot less than old Futures. What's the actual weight difference these days anyone know?
Futures maybe stronger but do they surf better? They seem more stiff to me. Every 3 finned board I’ve had has been better with FCS, but twin fin boards are better with Futures. Just my opinion from my own experience.
GREAT video! One question: When you say that the FCS II Finbox is “deforming” under pressure, can you elaborate on what you mean? This “deforming” is occurring all under the glass? Are there any cracks or other damage happening to the glass/resin itself overlying the FCS II finbox?
Thanks for your question...
At 60-65 lbs., the FCS2 box appeared to be buckling from within itself. This was especially notable along the space between the fin tabs.
And, there was only a slight delamination of the overlying glass.
Note: After the pull, the fin wobbled considerably in the FCS2 box, but the fin tabs showed no sign of stress or damage.
I wish I would have seen this before ordering my last 2 boards
Awesome stuff. I run both FCS and Futures, think they're both decent systems. One thing Futures does have over FCS is the cant angle being in the fin and not the box. FCS2 so convenient.
It’s much more convenient if you need to reset on your own with minimal tools or no access to luxury’s like ding repair service, or on a rural surf trip.
Was the hole drilled at the same height from the base for each type of fin?
Yes... the distance from the hole to the base of the fin is the same.
I love the fact that you use the most basic scientific method to do the tests, starting with the un-bonded boxes. That is something my former boss refused to understand and didn't believe that these sort of basic trials can give valid results. Notice the term "former boss"...
Your former boss might have been right, the experimental design is poor and most of the results are not relevant to the finished product which is a composite and should only be tested as such. Unbonded boxes with no glass on the foam tells you nothing about how a finished composite will work. The strength from the backside of a finished box plays a large role in strength and needs to be accounted for. Further, this only looks at ultimate failure from lateral stress which never happens unless you hit a rock, but that's user error. Stress/strain is probably a better indicator of which box would better transmit force to the board. You might not know what you are talking about. These tests are interesting at best and professional ding repair guys in the comments are saying contradictory things regarding which box fails more often so no conclusion can be drawn.
There are so many more boards out in the wild with FCS systems. Especially in the budget range of course ding repair co. Will see large volumes of FCS repair orders. Working at a high volume surf shop doing MM revenue every year, been there’re and seen it. That being said. Been riding FCS since 1998 and have only had one board where it sort of popped through the top. But hardly. More like a reverse pressure dent. Never lost an FCSII fin either across various sizes, shapes, etc. Wife and I also ride Futures too.
But aren't the fin tab supposed to snap before the box cracks out
It is relatively rare for fin boxes to break from lateral force, so this exercise is mostly entertainment. Typical damage comes from running into things - rocks, coral heads, or another surfboard. For a more useful experiment, test for damage cause by the leading edge of the fin striking (or being struck by) an object. The early version of FCS (with two little plugs for the fin to attach on,) could be broken by an especially forceful bottom turn, which is why it is no longer made.
Thanks for your input Kenji. You're absolutely correct that impact is the primary cause of (major) damage to fin boxes. But I wasn't testing for damage aspects...
My interest here was aligned with exploring the effectiveness of each fin box to transfer useful energy from the fin to the board and, from the board back to the fin. With the fin box being the conduit of that action between the board and fin.
It's about high-performance surfing and ensuring the rider gets all the available drive and control they can from their equipment.
And while it's not featured in the video, I actually gathered quite a bit of data about that. Measuring the rotation of the box at a given force, deflection in the foam and glass, and other things. And there were some pretty interesting finds!
That being said, quite a few people have expressed interest in me doing a series of impact tests. If that's of interest to you as well, let me know? Perhaps I'll do that too...
Thanks again, Michael
I wonder if this just represents two philosphies.
FCS: Don't screw fins. If they hit something hard or too much pressure is exerted on the fin they'll pop loose and you'll probably lose a fin, but your board will be safe.
Futures: Screw in fins and your fins will stay in there even with over 100lbs of force. However, you might destroy someone or something in the water that your fins come in contact with. Am I missing something here?
I used both systems. But after loosing two time a fcs2 fins I used a screw on the Fcs2 to secure them.
Future Fins is more simple and efficient in my opinion
Thanks 😊
The big question not being answered is: is it better for a fin to come lose easy or not? If if breaks before damaging the board isn’t that better? Just replace the fin? But if the box is so strong your board gets destroyed, isn’t that worse? When my future fin ran over someone who dropped in on me, it tore my entire fin box out.
So interesting, thanks for sharing.
I've surfed FCS my whole life and love it. Never really any complaints about it but hearing loads of stories around me.
Looks like I should give futures a go in the future.
In all honesty I think it comes down to how well the boxes are glassed in. The FCS2 box deforming could be a desireable thing if you think about its ability to withstand a shock.
I like both. you cannot beat the convenience of fcs2 though. I like the weight of fcs1 most but in the end in terms of performance, they are the same. One can argue that futures is better connected but let's get honest, Fanning, Slater, and a heep others, would not put world titles on the line if it made that much of a difference. Performance wise, all the same. The breaking point is lower on the fcs1 and 2 but in my opinion, that is a good thing. Better to break a fin on a surf trip and than a fin box. better not to injure yourself either. I own both and mostly buy the board based on availability. Sometimes it's futures and other times it's fcs. All good to me.
Super interesting, thank you !
Random that this popped up on my feed, but fitting... I don't have strong opinions on many things, but fin boxes are one of them. I respect FCS for bringing a removable fin system to the market in the 90's and ran them until 2001 when I heard about Futures. FCS fist generation design was intended for the fin to break off at the tabs and save your board. That was great but they snapped off fairly easily if you were surfing a shallow beach break and when I was in my early 20s, I couldn't really afford buying new fins every few months. I'd say that 90% of my boards from 2001 til now have had Futures. I have broken 1 Futures box, and I remember it clearly as it was a freak kickout leading to me to bodyslamming the fin and sending me to the doctor for stitches. The small percentage of FCS boards...? I have broken 10-15 of my FCS. They are inferior in design and it is obvious. .. Not to mention, Futures feel more grounded to the board in general.
Yes... I have been in the Industry here in Australia makeing and repairing boards for over 40yrs...From a personal view FUTURES are better in many ways...Especially the way they perform IN THE WATER...Just like a roving set fin!. And the amount of repair work on FCS boxs is Far Greater.. Cheers Australia.
Damn good job. That’s how data is collected & recorded so changes can be made to reach a target!!
can you make a video about fcs1 ?
Maybe... Is there something specific you're interested in?
On a first simplistic read futures is better than FCS... Well to me it's the other way around and honestly make sure you get rid of the screws off on FCS2. Fins popping out is the best thing that can happen to your board. Just like in car security test you want it to deform as much as possible rather than being stiff as iron. Absorbing energy and popping out the fin is a good thing, puts less stress on your beloved board and reduces the likelihood of damage. Fins come and go and two same model pairs are almost always the same. Boards are not
I have both systems and if it is true that the Futures system is more resistant and effective, the truth is that it can be more dangerous for us. I recently fell off a wave along with my board and one of the FCS2 ends hit my thigh hard to the point that I thought due to the intense and huge pain I had a deep cut in my thigh. Fortunately that didn't happen, resulting in a huge, dark mark on my thigh for weeks and a damaged board because the FCS2 case gave way. Given that Future cases are more resistant, I don't know if in my case I would end up suffering a very deep and dangerous cut.
I've had no problems with FCS 2, but I don't surf with a winch attached to my fin. If I had a winch attached then would probably go futures.
I have been riding futures my whole life. Considering how much fins cost, all it takes is a few lost fins.
after not making any good fins anymore for FCSI I'm done with them. Future all day
Awesome video! Legit rig to measure the amount of force and everything. Super cool to see, thanks for showing.🤙
Excellent!!!!
Futures has always been a superior set up, it's why fcs changed their set up from their original round plugs.
As an ex Ding guy I had to love fcs, easy money and more regular than the busses in the South West of the UK. With some of the cheap Chinese boards you could almost blow on a fin and loosen a plug back then.
Future repairs happened, but generally we're rare and had involved obvious trauma, like hitting the reef or a solid collision.
Cool nice!!!
When surfing depends where and how is the impact on FCS you might lose the fin but not the fin box it happened to me, on Futures you might not lose the fin but it will damage the fin box it happened to my friend
The fin replacement is cheaper than a fin box damage
Another friend that is a twin fin surfer, uses Futures specially for Keel fins, he said the FCS boxes can't hold the pressure on the keels they come out with time and he made the switch
I wanted to make the switch for Futures but every surf shop most of the brand new boards for sale are on FCS and if you want Futures you have to order and wait for long time
Better have both I think
great video
I've lost so many FCS2 fins because they pop out. Now i only use Futures. You should too. The whole concept behind fcs2 is that they are supposed to be tooless, however without grub screws, you lose them. Futures is a far simpler, cheaper and better system overall.
Very good
The problem with future's though is that the box is drowned in resin to install (extra weight) and the box is too long.
And i hate all those holes around them,ugly boxes.
I got stabbed pretty bad on the inside of my leg surfing a futures fin it cut through my board shorts and I ended up with 12 staples. I later was surfing and fell onto the board the same way with fcs2 and the fin popped out and I just got a bad bruise. I feel like the fcs2 is a safer fin system but the futures is stronger.
Wow, I never thought about the possibility of getting stabbed by the sharp end (tip) of the fin and FCS II at least has the potential to just pop out rather than give you a possible deep flesh wound. Thanks for this new insight. I'm taking out my grub screws and don't care if I lose a fin.
I thought FCS designed there Fins and boxes to Break @ specific PPSI so less injury to a Surfer if the fins come in contact with his body. Hmmm. Subbed
Redo the torture test but use glass/carbon fins, they won’t deform like the plastic fins and will put all the stress into the plugs
If you want to know what’s stronger just look at kite surfing boards. They are put under a lot more stress from the power of the kite, hard edging for extended periods and landing big airs etc. They come with futures fins…
Thanks for your comment. And you're correct that kiteboarding puts considerably more stress on our fins and fin boxes. I surf, kite, and build both surfboards and kiteboards. And yes, the fin boxes on my kiteboards are installed with considerably more reinforcement.
And true to your suggestion... nearly all of my kiteboard orders include Futures fin boxes.
Futures boxes are much heavier than FCS II, plus you get better flex through the board with FCS II.
In 30 years of surfing ive never broken a fcs fin or fin box. And to end it all, i dont want to have to worry about fin keys when im rushing to get in the water.
There are anecdotal reports all over the Internet of FCS 2 fin boxes winding up with cracks in the fiberglass. That's just one reason I went with Futures from the beginning.
pretty safe if i have to put 150+pounds of force on a thruster before it even fails. dont think there is ever that much lateral force on it, defo if i only weigh 140pounds myself
Amazing 👏 !!!
Awesome video! Although lots of potential for this study to not be a very good representation.
A few thoughts that come to mind that could heavily influence the results:
1) Were fins the exact same size?
2) Did both fins claim to have the same amount of flex/strength?
3)Were the anchor bolts drilled in the exact same locations on both fins? A change here could easily change the force/moment on the box
Overall still a great video that gets people thinking, but a warning to all (as the video mentions) this is amateur science. For a science experiment to be proven true, it must be repeatable by others and produce the same results. So dont go throwing away those FCS2's after this.
Good questions... I really appreciate your points of concern and especially that you took the time to address it in a comment.
1) Futures and FSC make a number of templates that are nearly identical. Futures has three base templates and FCS has four. The fins I used in this experiment are not the same but are close in form.
2) And yes... Flex and strength are certainly a factor that can influence the outcome of a result. But a key thing to note is that the force applied to each fin box is being transmitted through a similar type fin that's made by the respective manufacturer. (IE: Not a carbon fiber blend vs plastic or an authentic vs counterfit product).
3) And yes, the holes for the anchor bolts are drilled to the same arm (XYZ) and they're oversized by 40%. Like-for-like.
And please know, that I totally and completely respect your point that this is just amateur science (emphasized). In retrospect, I see a number of things that could have been done differently, and, that would have improved the data. It's just a matter of starting somewhere and moving forward.
Hopefully, and perhaps with enough community interest, and some support from Futures and FCS, I can improve upon this and take it to a new level.
Thanks again!
@@continuesurfboards4564 Awesome replies!!! As an engineer who loves to surf (and do some amateur science myself), I am absolutely going to subscribe and watch/learn from your videos. Hope to see more from you.
@@continuesurfboards4564 the actual fin box shape/design/depth of the fin boxes disperses forces differently to each other. The lip and bottom of the futures finbox encourages to flip and 'snap' out like the bottom of a boat rocking back and forth, It wants to pivot out. Hence the minimal foam damage in test 2. The length and base of futures fins/boxes are designed to have greater area to disperse force compared to FCS's 2 tab system. There's only 1 fail point in Futures which is strong but when it goes, it goes. Fcs has multiple from the fins to the individual fin tabs to the mechanism of the actual fcs block to the structure of the board around it.
I'd like to also mention that the FCS system relies on the structure around it to disperse force e.g. glass + foam. Which is why the figure 8 outline of the FCS fin box took out more foam in test 2.
The flex and construction of the fin in my opinion plays a bigger part in this experiment. The more the fin flexes the less amount of force is actually going through to the fin box - like a sponge. Also this leads to warping of the arm gradually changing the angle of force.
But great video and amateur + anecdotal science at it's best, this is why we re-test and evaluate. I was looking at this project through the eyes of judging it as one of my students final science projects (Senior physics teacher). Best of luck in the future super stoked that this was made!
👍👍👍
FCS boxes come in 0, 5, and 9 degrees. With future they pre-cant the fins instead of the boxes. This means if you have a fair bit of V or concave and your using a furure fin with a certain amount of cant you may be getting more or less cant than expected. The average joe probably doesnt know the difference but something to be aware of when using futures. I was recently surprised to see that kelly had switched to futures boxs on his boards but then he is the goat and can ride a barn door better than most on a HPS.
Good video, kind of interesting but a bit of a moot point because we see both of these boxs used all over the world and not many surfers are busting out boxs so the test doesnt really prove anything.
Thanks for your input... You're absolutely correct that FCS boxes have the cant angle built into the box and Futures incorporates that angle to the fin. I can't speak for other board makers, but we always zero our fin boxes to accommodate the respective FCS cant angle or the Futures 6.5' install dummy fin, regardless of the hull design.
And know that this project wasn't about proving which box is stronger, but more so, exploring which fin box transfers energy better between the fin and the board. I gathered quite a bit of data that wasn't featured in the video and plan to do a follow-up video in the near future (it will also include anecdotal input from the comments received herein).
Thanks again- Michael
Great video!
For the average surfer like myself, in average 2-6ft conditions, who might change the fins once or twice a year, and avoids hitting objects like the plague.
Does this stuff really matter? This all gives me the impression that FCS 2 are selling defective gear.
Interesting but confusing for average joes like myself.
I think the FCS is better because it's always better to lose a fin than destroy the fin box.
So the easiest the fin falls off the better for the box.
Please post more insights Continue Surf. I have always considered Futures as the gold standard but FCS fin failing early is actually a good thing. I would rather replace a fin than repair the box.
I swapped to futures fins , would never go back. Better in every way for me!
A question we all had
It's got me thinking the energy transfer is greater = better with future
I imagine FCS will be reaching out to you crying soon.
Interesting test. Amazing how much pressure they both can endure!
I've been surfing since the mid 90's. Back then I had the FCS 2 tab (original models) which seemed to be the most problematic (losing fins) or the tab plug caving in from too much pressure. I also had tons of experience with Futures fins (don't think I ever lost a fin). This last 12 years I've surfed with only FCS II. I lost only one fin. I keep the fins screwed down lightly. What I don't like about the FCS II boxes is that the glass around the fin boxes often splinter or get hairline cracks. I have an expansive FCS fin collection and a smaller Futures fin collection but I'm seriously considering going with Futures for my next board. I like the way the fin to the fin box appears to be more flush on the board. After all, at the end of the day, we all pay lots of cash for a board these days and we want it to last as long as possible. At the end of the day, it seems like a toss up but I am going with Futures for my next board.